Author Topic: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017  (Read 15323 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2019, 08:30:17 PM »
His report more or less mirrors what I believe happened.  In which case Madeleine is living within a family, although probably the only child.

....and she doesn't realise she is world famous missing person Madeleine McCann.
Her entire memory of her parents, her siblings, her early childhood & being abducted have all been forgotten. Unbelievable!
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Offline Brietta

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2019, 08:32:06 PM »
I think it is a measured response to some of the quite frankly ridiculous theories which the judicial police of 2007 espoused.

Snip
I will describe how I believe she was in my opinion taken and then explain why I believe that the final option that Madeleine may still be alive is realistic.

It remains my belief that Madeleine was targeted, and her parents observed following their arrival at The Ocean Club. The McCann family arrived on Saturday 28th April 2007, and except for that evening, dined every night in the complex. This pattern could have been observed by anyone, so by Thursday they could have been watched for up to four nights during which time their routine was established. Whoever abducted Madeleine was then able to put their plan together. The routine of Mr and Mrs McCann and their friends, along with the regular checking of the children could have been easily observed, as well as the fact that access via the patio door was simple.

On the night itself, Gerry McCann checked the children at about 9.05pm and then rejoined the group. Mathew Oldfield checked at about 9.30pm, although he only listened at the door and did not actually see Madeleine. It was only when Kate McCann checked at about 10pm that it was discovered that Madeline was missing.

These actions could be seen from within the Ocean Club area, as well as from the alleyway that runs between this and the apartment. Due to the height of the wall and foliage on top of it, as well as the area inside being well lit, in contrast to the darkness elsewhere, those dining would have been easily observed whilst anyone in the alleyway could remain unseen. Sunset on the 3rd May 2007 was at 8.25pm, so it would have been getting quite dark by 9pm.

Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check. They would have observed the group for a few minutes and then gone to the apartment. At the end of the alleyway they could see that the road was clear, it is then only literally a second for someone to go through the gate and into the garden area, where they would be virtually out of sight. It is then simple to enter the apartment through the patio doors, which although closed, had been left unlocked.

I believe the abductor then went into the bedroom where the twins and Madeleine were sleeping. He has no interest in the twins, he is looking for Madeleine. The window and blind were very likely opened to facilitate exit. If two people were involved, Madeleine could have been handed out of the window to the second person. If one, he could possibly have climbed out the window with her, but I believe it to be more likely that they left via the door leading to the car park. Although entry was gained via the patio doors, I do not believe this was the exit route as it is not only unnecessary and illogical, it would also substantially increase the chances of being seen.

I think the plan and escape route were planned. It was clearly well executed. This was not an impulsive act. It took patience as well as planning, and would have involved observing the McCann’s for some time.

Although floodlit, the window of the apartment and exit to the car park are not easily observed. Once out of the apartment car park there is a simple choice, turn left or right. By turning right, the abductor must pass Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road leading down to the entrance to the Ocean Club. However, within less than 30 seconds, he could be totally out of sight in an alleyway with high walls that leads directly from Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva to Rua Do Ramalhetete, the main road out of the village. Turning left means he would have to walk a greater distance, initially uphill, and with a greater chance of being seen.

It has been suggested that a child of Madeleine’s description was seen by Martin Smith and his wife, being carried over 400 yards away in Rua da Escola Primaria, shortly before 10pm. This sighting was dismissed by the Portuguese Police, but appears to have been given substantial credibility by Operation Grange, the Metropolitan Police inquiry, who featured this on Crimewatch. I do however remain extremely sceptical about this. As far as I am concerned not only is this too late, but it is also too far away. If someone had abducted a child, they would not have carried them this far. If the plan was to take the child to a car, this would have been parked far closer. If the objective was to dispose of a body, then this person has walked past a lot of waste ground.

This timing also does not fit in with the sighting by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm. However, we are told that the person who Jane Tanner saw has come forward and been eliminated. I do not know how the police can be sure after so many years, that the person they spoke to is one and the same who was seen by Jane Tanner. Did she meet him, were the clothes identical to those she described? I obviously do not know, but regardless I still think that this is still the most likely route taken by the kidnapper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403675#msg403675
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2019, 08:52:20 PM »
I think it is a measured response to some of the quite frankly ridiculous theories which the judicial police of 2007 espoused.

Snip
I will describe how I believe she was in my opinion taken and then explain why I believe that the final option that Madeleine may still be alive is realistic.

It remains my belief that Madeleine was targeted, and her parents observed following their arrival at The Ocean Club. The McCann family arrived on Saturday 28th April 2007, and except for that evening, dined every night in the complex. This pattern could have been observed by anyone, so by Thursday they could have been watched for up to four nights during which time their routine was established. Whoever abducted Madeleine was then able to put their plan together. The routine of Mr and Mrs McCann and their friends, along with the regular checking of the children could have been easily observed, as well as the fact that access via the patio door was simple.

On the night itself, Gerry McCann checked the children at about 9.05pm and then rejoined the group. Mathew Oldfield checked at about 9.30pm, although he only listened at the door and did not actually see Madeleine. It was only when Kate McCann checked at about 10pm that it was discovered that Madeline was missing.

These actions could be seen from within the Ocean Club area, as well as from the alleyway that runs between this and the apartment. Due to the height of the wall and foliage on top of it, as well as the area inside being well lit, in contrast to the darkness elsewhere, those dining would have been easily observed whilst anyone in the alleyway could remain unseen. Sunset on the 3rd May 2007 was at 8.25pm, so it would have been getting quite dark by 9pm.

Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check. They would have observed the group for a few minutes and then gone to the apartment. At the end of the alleyway they could see that the road was clear, it is then only literally a second for someone to go through the gate and into the garden area, where they would be virtually out of sight. It is then simple to enter the apartment through the patio doors, which although closed, had been left unlocked.

I believe the abductor then went into the bedroom where the twins and Madeleine were sleeping. He has no interest in the twins, he is looking for Madeleine. The window and blind were very likely opened to facilitate exit. If two people were involved, Madeleine could have been handed out of the window to the second person. If one, he could possibly have climbed out the window with her, but I believe it to be more likely that they left via the door leading to the car park. Although entry was gained via the patio doors, I do not believe this was the exit route as it is not only unnecessary and illogical, it would also substantially increase the chances of being seen.

I think the plan and escape route were planned. It was clearly well executed. This was not an impulsive act. It took patience as well as planning, and would have involved observing the McCann’s for some time.

Although floodlit, the window of the apartment and exit to the car park are not easily observed. Once out of the apartment car park there is a simple choice, turn left or right. By turning right, the abductor must pass Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road leading down to the entrance to the Ocean Club. However, within less than 30 seconds, he could be totally out of sight in an alleyway with high walls that leads directly from Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva to Rua Do Ramalhetete, the main road out of the village. Turning left means he would have to walk a greater distance, initially uphill, and with a greater chance of being seen.

It has been suggested that a child of Madeleine’s description was seen by Martin Smith and his wife, being carried over 400 yards away in Rua da Escola Primaria, shortly before 10pm. This sighting was dismissed by the Portuguese Police, but appears to have been given substantial credibility by Operation Grange, the Metropolitan Police inquiry, who featured this on Crimewatch. I do however remain extremely sceptical about this. As far as I am concerned not only is this too late, but it is also too far away. If someone had abducted a child, they would not have carried them this far. If the plan was to take the child to a car, this would have been parked far closer. If the objective was to dispose of a body, then this person has walked past a lot of waste ground.

This timing also does not fit in with the sighting by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm. However, we are told that the person who Jane Tanner saw has come forward and been eliminated. I do not know how the police can be sure after so many years, that the person they spoke to is one and the same who was seen by Jane Tanner. Did she meet him, were the clothes identical to those she described? I obviously do not know, but regardless I still think that this is still the most likely route taken by the kidnapper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403675#msg403675

I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 08:56:17 PM »
You've changed your tune. You couldn't fnd 20 minutes between checks in the group's timelime.
No I haven’t changed my tune.  According to the timeline how many minutes were the children in the apartment on their own?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2019, 09:27:19 PM »
Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.

Does anyone here think MM might still be alive?  If so on what basis?
I have yet to read the full report but I was surprised that you had quoted him when I read the line he was of the opinion Madeleine was still alive.

In my theory Madeleine is still alive.  I'm working on the basis a dead child has be exchanged for a living child.  Child replacement is what its called.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2019, 09:31:35 PM »
I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.

I think what he has to say makes a great deal of sense and he has certainly touched on what is relevant to Madeleine's case and what is quite frankly nothing more than excess baggage.

I think it striking that what Horrocks describes as procedures which set the tone initially and sent the investigation in entirely the wrong direction continue to prevail and are promoted throughout the internet today ... despite the expectation it could be considered the information now to hand would have long since consigned all the trivia to the dustbin of history.

Snip
I will only comment briefly on the investigation conducted by the Portuguese police.

It is evident that more could, and should have been done in the immediate aftermath of her disappearance.

Additionally, much of the focus of the investigation fell on Mr and Mrs McCann, when resources should have been directed elsewhere.

Although it would be irresponsible not to look at the parents, in the absence of any credible evidence, this should have been dealt with, and the investigation moved on.

However, the firm and in my opinion unrealistic assessment by Goncal Amaral, the original investigator, prompted it must be said by the unhelpful views of a UK based psychologist, muddied the whole investigation, and in effect set the whole tone for the inquiry.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403676#msg403676


"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2019, 09:39:22 PM »
I have yet to read the full report but I was surprised that you had quoted him when I read the line he was of the opinion Madeleine was still alive.

In my theory Madeleine is still alive.  I'm working on the basis a dead child has be exchanged for a living child.  Child replacement is what its called.

....and again....... Does she not know who she is?

What happened? Memory loss caused by the trauma of her abduction?

Nonsense.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2019, 09:46:03 PM »
I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.
Just climb over the low garden fence.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 09:47:49 PM »
No I haven’t changed my tune.  According to the timeline how many minutes were the children in the apartment on their own?
Are you looking for a total, or subtotals of the various periods?
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2019, 09:53:01 PM »
....and again....... Does she not know who she is?

What happened? Memory loss caused by the trauma of her abduction?

Nonsense.
I'm hoping she has a clue as to who she is.    I'm hoping she will join Facebook and join one of my Facebook groups.
I'm looking at the new members to see if someone fits the profile.   We don't know if she will still be speaking English. I hope so.

Ian Horrocks "However, Madeleine, if alive, is now a teenager. She may become curious as to her background. No one knows where this could lead."

So I have tried to prepare for that.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 10:09:03 PM by Robittybob1 »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2019, 10:17:37 PM »
Are you looking for a total, or subtotals of the various periods?
either or both will be fine.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
....and she doesn't realise she is world famous missing person Madeleine McCann.
Her entire memory of her parents, her siblings, her early childhood & being abducted have all been forgotten. Unbelievable!
What’s unbelievable about it?  I suppose you have perfect recall of your life aged 4.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2019, 10:20:11 PM »


Snip


Additionally, much of the focus of the investigation fell on Mr and Mrs McCann, when resources should have been directed elsewhere.

Although it would be irresponsible not to look at the parents, in the absence of any credible evidence, this should have been dealt with, and the investigation moved on.


How could they move on when their investigation revealed a wholly inconsistent timescale from those most closely involved with the missing girl from 17:00 that afternoon. There was no evidence for abduction. Totman had come forward to the PJ, remember. There was some suspicion of staging at he scene.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2019, 10:21:23 PM »
either or both will be fine.
The subtotals should add up to the total in any case.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Report By Former Police Officer - Ian Horrocks - May 2017
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2019, 10:29:12 PM »
What’s unbelievable about it?  I suppose you have perfect recall of your life aged 4.

That she wouldn't remember her own name?  Utter horse sh1t.

She was a bright 4 year old, not mentally retarded as far as I'm aware.



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