Why did Sheila have an INCREASED amount of Haloperidol in her system?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Apology accepted, and thank you.

I'm not very "au fait" with the case either, and I'm on here to learn , more than for any other reason. You will find that there are several people posting on here who are extremely well informed, and who have been studying the case for years.  I followed it at the time it happened (I lived in Essex then, and so it was of local as well as national  interest), but stopped after the trial, so knew nothing about the appeals. I read CAL's book (after reading her excellent book on Myra Hindley), then watched the TV series, so my interest has re-kindled!

Thank you for accepting my apology — I appreciate that.

I need to learn not to let my emotions get the better of me.

Yes, there are many people on here who are vastly informed on the case, and of course it’s a case everyone knows or discusses as its such an extraordinary, shocking, almost unbelievable thing to have happened.

And believe me, if I thought Jeremy was innocent I’d say so. I’m extremely outspoken and will always fight the corner if someone I think is right. But there’s absolutely nothing whatsoever that even suggests to me that Jeremy isn’t guilty.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I wouldn't normally reply to such a rude post, but I take the point that I should have provided the quote!

Several witnesses saw Sheila in the days before the murders. Barbara Wilson's son implies she was walking normally, and so does Len Foakes. Michael Horsnell, decorating the exterior of Vaulty, mentions Sheila walking rigidly. There is also mention of Sheila taking the twins to the rape field to see Jeremy (Barbara Wilson), and no mention of her barely being able to walk. (pp591-614 CAL's book).

Please remember the forum rules and be polite, even if you don't like what some of us have to say. It is called mature discussion.

On the morning before the murdersMichael Horsenell described Sheila as walking rigidly, like a zombie and definitely did not look normal, I’ve literally just got up to that bit in CAL’s book describing it, Chapter 19

[puglove]

On the morning before the murdersMichael Horsenell described Sheila as walking rigidly, like a zombie and definitely did not look normal, I’ve literally just got up to that bit in CAL’s book describing it, Chapter 19

Yes, you're right. She walked through a gaggle of geese, and I know that's scary. Sheila did what she always did, cared for her boys. While feeling sad, loving her boys, thinking of her sad life, wondering what to do. She was young, lonely, desperate.

[puglove]

Yes, you're right. She walked through a gaggle of geese, and I know that's scary. Sheila did what she always did, cared for her boys. While feeling sad, loving her boys, thinking of her sad life, wondering what to do. She was young, lonely, desperate.

She could no more harm those sweet boys than fly to the moon.  Bamber, however, thought of them as a trial.

[Holly Goodhead]

It came from the horse’s mouth, Holly

Colin, who SPOKE with the pathologist, was told by him that Sheila had “unusually high levels” of Haloperidol in her system. Now, whether that means they were unusually high due to her asking for a reduced dose, I have no idea. But that’s what Colin says — in his book — page 48.

It’s there in black and white.

Holly, for someone who believes every word a convicted mass murderer comes out with, its very strange that you disbelieve others. That suggests to me you’re mistrusting, yet you trust and believe a proven liar, a thief, a drug dealer, and a mass murderer who to this day refuses to admit his guilt despite all the overwhelming evidence....

Strange!

Thanks.

On page 48 of CC's updated paperback he refers to tests for illegal narcotics like cocaine proved negative, but instead revealed an unusually high level of Haloperidol.  This is wrong based on the outcome of tests performed by forensic scientist Alexander Allan in that the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood represented a med dose at the low end of the med range.  Also its not entirely accurate that the tests proved negative for illegal narcotics in that traces of cannabis were found. 

I don't believe the prosecution at trial attempted to advance arguments to the effect that SC was unable to carry out what the defence claimed on the basis she was over medicated?

CC refers to hearing from her GP.   I believe he did actually speak with Dr Ferguson at some time but I can't find any evidence he spoke with the pathologist, Dr Vanezis, as you claim.

[Holly Goodhead]

The levels were in the MEDIUM range, Holly

Stop copying Jeremy Bamber’s sly trick of trying to twist/distort/exaggerate/underwhelm things — it’s so obvious what you’re trying to do

The fact is, the Haloperidol in Sheila’s system was in the medium range. The pathologist told Colin it was “unusually high”. I’ve explained to you why that might have been: perhaps Sheila hadn’t been given the reduced dosage she’d asked for...

Regardless, she did indeed have the drug in her system, and it did indeed incapacitate her. She could barely SIT UP from a chair!

You are demeaning Sheila and trying to make her look like the culprit when it’s been PROVEN in a court of law that Jeremy Bamber is a an evil, vile mass murderer! Those are the words of the judge, and everyone KNOWS what he is, so for you to try and twist facts by suggesting a Sheila murdered her two children and parents’ is so, so low...

The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0.  At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml.  This level is at the low end of medium.

I am not demeaning anyone.  I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.

[G-Unit]

I’ve ALREADY told you!

Don’t you READ?

And stop asking me to post evidence! You’re not a police officer. You’re not a lawyer. And I’m not your runaround.

Find it yourself. I’ve told you where to look!

I think you may have anger management issues. 

If you are referring to Colin Caffell's book I saw no mention of him speaking with a pathologist as you claimed.
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11326.msg581034#msg581034

[Holly Goodhead]

Going forward can we refrain please from any comments of a personal nature including aggressively themed capital letters.

The board has been set up for debate and discussion.  Posters will have a wide range of views on the different aspects of the case and about who was and wasn't responsible.  Please remain objective and do not take it personally when others disagree. 

[ISpyWithMyEye]

She could no more harm those sweet boys than fly to the moon.  Bamber, however, thought of them as a trial.

The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance

He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it

It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...

He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N.  Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.

[Holly Goodhead]

The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance

He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it

It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...

He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N.  Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.

The twins were not named beneficiaries of either will.  JB would have inherited the entire Bamber estate regardless of whether or not the twins survived.

[APRIL]

The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance

He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it

It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...

He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N.  Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.

Where did Jeremy invite Colin to stay? At WHF -which wasn't actually his place to make such an invitation- or Bourtree Cottage? Was it Colin who made the claim?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0.  At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml.  This level is at the low end of medium.

I am not demeaning anyone.  I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.

The levels are still in the MEDIUM range, Holly.

They’re not in the low range; they’re not even in the upper low range.

They’re in the MEDIUM range.

Besides, proof that even that dosage was far too high for her was the fact she could barely walk or focus.

But let’s say she had NO Haloperidol in her system — she STILL would have been incapable of overpowering Nevill and beating him to a pulp.

With all due respect, Holly, you refuse to listen to anything you don’t like hearing, and whilst I have at times been rude (for which I’ve apologised), I’m becoming tired of contributing anymore, simply because you shut me down, threaten me with warnings, reprimand people for speaking their minds, and create the impression that unless people bow down to you or agree with you we’re not welcome. That comes across at tyrannical, oppressive and is not conducive to a DISCUSSION BOARD where people can offer their opinions unless they side with yours.

Everyone’s opinion is of equal value; without others there’d be no forum.

[Caroline]

The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0.  At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml.  This level is at the low end of medium.

I am not demeaning anyone.  I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.

Did you actually read the study you posted yesterday?

It doesn't matter that the does was iat the lower end of moderate - she STILL had a MODERATE dose left at a time when her next injection was due. The study you posted concluded that the "results imply that low or moderate doses of neuroleptics are appropriate for many acutely psychotic patients."

[ISpyWithMyEye]

The twins were not named beneficiaries of either will.  JB would have inherited the entire Bamber estate regardless of whether or not the twins survived.

Nonsense, Holly.

June and Nevill had both the twins’ named in their wills as beneficiaries.

Please stop posting false information

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Where did Jeremy invite Colin to stay? At WHF -which wasn't actually his place to make such an invitation- or Bourtree Cottage? Was it Colin who made the claim?

Yes, Colin said (I’ll find it for you), that when he went to WHF to drop off Sheila and the twins’, Jeremy suggested he stay overnight.

Colin refused as he had to get back to London, but he found it strange considering Jeremy had never asked him to stay before — and not forgetting he wasn’t even living there any longer.

I will find it for you....