Who were the witnesses who saw a man loitering near the McCann's apartment ?

[Mr Gray]

Of course you can. You can claim whatever you like. It's only a verified claim at the end of the process.

she can claim it as an opinion...not as fact

[The General]

she can claim it as an opinion...not as fact

You can claim the earth is flat, fact. You can claim god is watching, fact. You can claim you have ESP and can see the future, fact. It's only verified once proven. Doesn't matter if it's a claim or a claim it's a fact. Call it what you like - a claim, a proclamation, a fact, an undeniable truth. Doesn't matter. All the same. If it's a claim it's sort of OK, but if it's a claim of a fact you take offence?
(Maybe the Earth is flat [cue X-Files theme tune])

[Mr Gray]

You can claim the earth is flat, fact. You can claim god is watching, fact. You can claim you have ESP and can see the future, fact. It's only verified once proven. Doesn't matter if it's a claim or a claim it's a fact. Call it what you like - a claim, a proclamation, a fact, an undeniable truth. Doesn't matter. All the same. If it's a claim it's sort of OK, but if it's a claim of a fact you take offence?
(Maybe the Earth is flat [cue X-Files theme tune])

i dont take offence at all but i draw conclusions re the persons ability to assess evidence

[The General]

i dont take offence at all but i draw conclusions re the persons ability to assess evidence

You do that anyway, so what difference does it make?

[Holly Goodhead]

The British Authorities went way beyond following up requests from the PJ.

When?  Evidenced by what?

[Holly Goodhead]

You claimed you had solved the case... You obviously havent

Obviously haven't...evidenced by what?

[G-Unit]

When?  Evidenced by what?

You will find a lot of information if you follow this link. It explains how the PJ were persuaded to request FLO's from LP, how LP set up an MIT in Portugal which the PJ didn't request, how CEOP sent two analysts who were neither requested nor welcomed (it took them a week to even get noticed). It also tells how LP recieved loads of information and sightings due to appeals in the press by the McCanns. It tells how HOLMES was available to the PJ but they didn't use it because it wasn't how they were used to working.

http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf

[Holly Goodhead]

You will find a lot of information if you follow this link. It explains how the PJ were persuaded to request FLO's from LP, how LP set up an MIT in Portugal which the PJ didn't request, how CEOP sent two analysts who were neither requested nor welcomed (it took them a week to even get noticed). It also tells how LP recieved loads of information and sightings due to appeals in the press by the McCanns. It tells how HOLMES was available to the PJ but they didn't use it because it wasn't how they were used to working.

http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf

Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?

Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals?  And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation?  They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?

For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:

- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given.  Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills

All of the above could rule someone in or out.  As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about. 

Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope.  Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile. 

[The General]

Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?

Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals?  And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation?  They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?

For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:

- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given.  Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills

All of the above could rule someone in or out.  As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about. 

Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope.  Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.

As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC  / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would be more 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?

[Holly Goodhead]

As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC  / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would be more 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?

Yes everyone in the vicinity.  Given no one knows the motive everyone needed to be treated equally. 

[Holly Goodhead]

As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC  / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would bemore 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?

Based on what?

[The General]

Based on what?

Longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.

[G-Unit]

Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?

Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals?  And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation?  They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?

For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:

- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given.  Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills

All of the above could rule someone in or out.  As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about. 

Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope.  Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.

I think your suggestions about how the PJ should have behaved are totally unrealistic. Tracing and forensically testing cars without any reason is a crazy suggestion imo.

[Holly Goodhead]

Longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.

I accept PF seems an unlikely candidate but I would apply the same checks right across the board without any exception whatsoever. 

Consider money laundering regulations everyone is treated equally and needs to provide the same evidence regardless of longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion. 

Consider checks at airports.  Would it be right to single out men of middle eastern appearance thus potentially overlooking a female Scandinavian right wing extremist with evil intent?

[Holly Goodhead]

I think your suggestions about how the PJ should have behaved are totally unrealistic. Tracing and forensically testing cars without any reason is a crazy suggestion imo.

It isn't without reason.  I'm not suggesting every car in Portugal or even PDL needed to be tested just those who a) had access to a vehicle and b) were in close proximity to 5A and/or McCanns.

All of what I have suggested is desk based other than forensically testing cars. 

It would have been far more efficient and economical to nip all this in the bud up front.