If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[DCI]

In the bedroom corner I see no furniture. No furniture also on the balcony. I agree the sofa is dubious.
Don't forget this is presumption, no certitude of course.

Was the sofa moved though, between forensic photo shots, Anne?

Like the cots were moved!

[Mrs. B]

Yes, all presumptions, because it was never checked by the PJ.

[icabodcrane]

Then why were you disputing that it has been established that there was a window of opportunity for an abductor to strike?

This thread is not about a window of opportunity in the whole,  it is specific to the man Jane Tanner saw,  and what window of opportunity he  would have had, if he was, indeed, the abductor

That is what has not been established

[faithlilly]

Sorry Faith, you are wrong!
The door opens towards the wardrobes, and there is a recess behind it, when open.




There was room for the kidnapper to hide inside fitted wardrobe.

Isn't the second photograph the McCanns bedroom ?

[DCI]

Isn't the second photograph the McCanns bedroom ?

No, its Madeleine's, definatley.

Here's Kate and Gerry's! Beds side on to the wardrobe, and no window.

[ferryman]

No, its Madeleine's, definatley.

Here's Kate and Gerry's!

Didn't the children all sleep in the same room?

[faithlilly]

Crown? You mean neck or that she'd fatally injured her head? You don't fall from a height like that without sustaining multiple injuries, just the act of a body hitting a hard surface would be enough to crack the skull & break the skin of that individual, i.e. blood would have been found, likely in abundance. If skull was cracked open, blood & brain matter would have seeped out. Where's the evidence?

ETA What would you do if you found your daughter dead in a flowerbed? Scream your head off until someone came to help you or calmly lift her up & dump her dead body behind the sofa? Talk about absurdities....

It would be quite possible for Madeleine to have landed badly, broken her neck and there be no blood.

[Redblossom]

the door is definitely right openng, see here at 9.00 mins, and going by that clip I would say its impossible a man was squeezed behnd the door

Eta I agree with a previous comment, if it was planned, and they were being watched it would not have occurred right at the time a check was being made or due

The other argument against this being the time is Matt seeing no window or shutters open or wind blowing through the curtains or feel the cold or see doors slam on his later check

[Mrs. B]

It would be quite possible for Madeleine to have landed badly, broken her neck and there be no blood.

No, that's actually extremely unlikely.

[Mrs. B]

Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and  leave the apartment at 9.00

As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked )    30 secs

Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child  1 minute

Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows  say another 2 minutes

Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road  2 minutes

He then exits the way he came in through the patio and  catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place

He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep

This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who  caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away

Yes, nothing "impossible" about that scenario at all.

[ferryman]

Only thing is, wouldn't chloroform leave quite a strong residual scent for some time that would be easily detectable?

[Eleanor]

Only thing is, wouldn't chloroform leave quite a strong residual scent for some time that would be easily detectable?

Chloroform doesn't smell if it is made properly.  I did all f this on Google during The Casey Anthony Trial.

[Redblossom]

Southoftheriver:

Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and  leave the apartment at 9.00

As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked )    30 secs

Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child  1 minute

Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows  say another 2 minutes

Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road  2 minutes

He then exits the way he came in through the patio and  catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place

He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep

This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who  caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away

------

Only it doesnt fit with Tanners sighting as she walked past Gerry and Jez chatting at the bottom of the stairs, man couldnt have entered or exited that way after Gerrys check and be seen by Tanner as well

[Benice]

An abductor hiding in the apartment makes no sense in a number of ways   

Firstly, we are told, by the McCanns themselves, that they were being  'watched'  for a few days, and that the abductor had become aware of their checking regime

So why would this abductor watch the McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30pm,  then wait half an hour before going into the apartment at the exact time he knew a check was due  ?
Secondly,  even if the abductor was  stupid enough to put himself in the apartment when a check was due  (  or if he was, in fact, an opportunistic abductor who had not been watching the McCanns at all, and had no idea that a check was due  )  there is still the business of where to hide

The first he would have known would be Gerry sliding the patio door open and walking in.  At that point, Gerry was already looking straight ahead at the children's bedroom in front of him, with it's wider than usual open door


The abductor could not have moved from anywhere else in the room  to get himself behind the door without passing directly in Gerry's line of vision  (  he would have to have already been standing behind the door when Gerry came in ) 

As to hiding in the wardrobe,  even if it was accessible  ( the cots ),  and even if was relatively empty  ( which it would have to be )  he would still, without question,  make some noise doing it.  The apartment was still and quiet and Gerry would almost certainly have heard someone getting in the wardrobe

IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant.     They would also have observed Matt(?)  doing a check at the window of 5A  just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on.   But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide.   (That is if he did)   The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.

[faithlilly]

the door is definitely right openng, see here at 9.00 mins, and going by that clip I would say its impossible a man was squeezed behnd the door

Eta I agree with a previous comment, if it was planned, and they were being watched it would not have occurred right at the time a check was being made or due

The other argument against this being the time is Matt seeing no window or shutters open or wind blowing through the curtains on his later check

Thank you Redblossom and you are right, the clip demonstrates brilliantly that there was simply no room for an average sized man to hide behind the door.