If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[icabodcrane]

Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and  leave the apartment at 9.00

As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked )    30 secs

Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child  1 minute

Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows  say another 2 minutes

Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road  2 minutes

He then exits the way he came in through the patio and  catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place

He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep

This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who  caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away

If the abductor didn't enter the apartment until after Gerry had done his check, and left,   why did Gerry find the bedroom door to be open wider than he had left it  ?

[faithlilly]

No, that's actually extremely unlikely.

Really ? I can tell you it's absolutely possible.

[icabodcrane]

IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant.     They would also have observed Matt(?)  doing a check at the window of 5A  just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on.   But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide.   (That is if he did)   The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.

I think that's a reasonable explanation Benice

Thankyou

[Mrs. B]

Really, you have a lot of experience of throwing kids out from balconies, do you?

ETA Notice that nice, wide, hard cement border around the flowerbed?

[ferryman]

Chloroform doesn't smell if it is made properly.  I did all f this on Google during The Casey Anthony Trial.

Well I'll be blowed ...

You've taught me something there ...

[Mrs. B]

IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant.     They would also have observed Matt(?)  doing a check at the window of 5A  just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on.   But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide.   (That is if he did)   The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.

If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?

[faithlilly]

If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?

And come back in again when Gerry had left ?

[Benice]

If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?

I think that is quite feasible Mrs. B. especially as IMO the abductor both entered and left by the front door.

Even Amaral said  that it was possible a duplicate key was used.

[DCI]

Thank you Redblossom and you are right, the clip demonstrates brilliantly that there was simply no room for an average sized man to hide behind the door.

If you look at this one of Amarals, it shows a better size on the gap, 3.15 on video  8-)(--)

ETA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxGhlYTNisw

[Mrs. B]

Yes, why not? We don't know who the abductor was, someone who had every reason to be in the area i.e. part of the staff could easily have been waiting around until the coast was clear again, without raising any suspicions.

[Mrs. B]

I think that is quite feasible Mrs. B. especially as IMO the abductor both entered and left by the front door.

Even Amaral said  that it was possible a duplicate key was used.

Yes, and as the "key" issue was never properly investigated by anyone, nobody knows how many there were & how many had access to them. Not forgetting that staff knew how to enter the apartments even when there were keys in the lock inside.

[Puffin]

Yes, why not? We don't know who the abductor was, someone who had every reason to be in the area i.e. part of the staff could easily have been waiting around until the coast was clear again, without raising any suspicions.

Everyone seems to be assuming it was a man hiding in the room (if in fact anyone was), but no-one seems to be considering a woman, one who Madeleine might well recognise if  she should wake up and be less frightening for her than some man she doesn't know which might start her screaming,  And chalet maids and cleaners are usually quite strong.  Okay, shoot me down, but everything is feasible. would all of you not agree?

[Redblossom]

Everyone seems to be assuming it was a man hiding in the room (if in fact anyone was), but no-one seems to be considering a woman, one who Madeleine might well recognise if  she should wake up and be less frightening for her than some man she doesn't know which might start her screaming,  And chalet maids and cleaners are usually quite strong.  Okay, shoot me down, but everything is feasible. would all of you not agree?

But not likely here as we are talking about Tanners sighting, she saw a man

[Benice]

Yes, and as the "key" issue was never properly investigated by anyone, nobody knows how many there were & how many had access to them. Not forgetting that staff knew how to enter the apartments even when there were keys in the lock inside.

I would like to know whether the empty apartment two doors down  (5c?) was thoroughly searched and examined as that would have been an ideal place for the abductor(s) to use - if they had keys. - both for observational purposes and for being about 5 secs walk away from 5A's front door.   

I believe that's the apartment where the 2 British sisters noticed two strange men standing on the balcony of that apartment - and wondered who they were.

[Mrs. B]

That does not mean that the person who ENTERED the apartment was a man, it may have been a woman, who THEN handed the (by then sedated by method unknown) sleeping Madeleine to a man, who was seen by Jane Tanner walking away from the scene.