If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[sadie]

I am saying that if the abductor Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, then he would have to have already been in the apartment when Gerry made his check  ...  because he couldn't have  entered  by way of  the patio doors without passing Gerry and Jez

I pointed out that Gerry probably thought the same thing  ...  why else would he have mentioned the abductor already being in the apartment  ( hiding )  when he made his check  ?

have you never had a feeling about something?  maybe a tiny noise, a draft, a slight smell, something changed ........?

[faithlilly]

have you never had a feeling about something?  maybe a tiny noise, a draft, a slight smell, something changed ........?

Like a bedroom door being open a little further than you had left it, and after checking that your children hadn't opened it then not investigating further to see what had ? Something like that Sadie ?

[sadie]

Like a bedroom door being open a little further than you had left it, and after checking that your children hadn't opened it then not investigating further to see what had ? Something like that Sadie ?

Something niggling in the back of your mind Faith

[faithlilly]

Something niggling in the back of your mind Faith

What, like Gerry having such disregard for his children's safety that he didn't even check how the bedroom door had become 'open a bit wider than we left it ' ?

[Mrs. B]

That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.

[faithlilly]

That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.

No he didn't but he did say the door was open wider than he had left it but Madeleine was as he had left her. So exactly who did he think, if he thought about it at all, had opened the door 'a little wider' ?

[icabodcrane]

That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.

But if he didn't  'have that feeling'  in the first place  ( while he was in the apartment )   how could he recall it later  ?

Not being picky here,  I genuinely don't see how it is possible to do that

[Mrs. B]

Really, most odd. It's a rather common feeling. I'm sure most people have experienced it.

   

[icabodcrane]

Really, most odd. It's a rather common feeling. I'm sure most people have experienced it.

 

Gerry didn't feel as if there was someone in the apartment with him at the time  (  if he had,  he would surely have looked around  )

Later, though, he recalled that he  had  felt someone was there with him   ...  he recalled a feeling he had not felt !

I don't think that's a common experience  at all 

[AnneGuedes]

A different possibility would depend on whether the bathroom had a bathtub or not and on whether the curtain was generally drawn after a shower/bath or left open.

I'm reading this only now. Mr McCann said he used the bathroom...the child carrier behind the curtain, what about his breathing ?
Who is Janet Leigh in this hypothetical scene ?

[Benice]

Because they were left unlocked

No windows needed to be opened ...  no shutters needed to be raised ...  no duplicate key was required

The patio doors were left  unlocked

Indeed Icab.   But if the abductor(s) wanted to hide the fact that they had a key, and that they had been watching the McCanns and the apartment prior to the 3rd May,  then maybe they opened the shutters and window to make it appear that it was an 'opportunist' break in by someone who was unaware that the patio door was not locked and so would be assuming that it was.

It's impossible to say because we don't know the reason why Madeleine was taken.  But if it was an abduction 'to order' then surely the people involved would try to deflect the Pj from going down the route of an 'organised' crime by trying to make it look as if it was NOT pre-planned.

Personally I tend to think the window/shutters were opened because it was not possible to check on the outside from the front door because it was recessed too far back, and they would have actually had to walk out of the front door then walk forward a few paces to check on what was going on at the front of the building.  With the window/shutters opened they could do that from inside the room.   It also gave them another escape route if they were interrrupted. 

AIMHO







 






 

[Mrs. B]

Gerry didn't feel as if there was someone in the apartment with him at the time  (  if he had,  he would surely have looked around  )

Later, though, he recalled that he  had  felt someone was there with him   ...  he recalled a feeling he had not felt !

I don't think that's a common experience  at all

Well, can't think I know anyone who has never expressed regrets about something they did or didn't do, but afterwards wished they hadn't, or had done, as they SHOULD have known better, or they SHOULD have acted on the signs that something was wrong, or they SHOULD have listened to advice given etc etc. That's where the expression "it's easy to be wise after the event" comes from. Similar expressions exist in most languages, as far as I know, which points to it being a rather common human experience.

[south of the river]

Southoftheriver:

Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and  leave the apartment at 9.00

As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked )    30 secs

Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child  1 minute

Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows  say another 2 minutes

Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road  2 minutes

He then exits the way he came in through the patio and  catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place

He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep

This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who  caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away

------

Only it doesnt fit with Tanners sighting as she walked past Gerry and Jez chatting at the bottom of the stairs, man couldnt have entered or exited that way after Gerrys check and be seen by Tanner as well

I am sure if this was the case the abductor wouldn't have exited whistling a merry tune and making a racket - Tanner walked past the gate - she was outside the complex and would have a view of the patio door for a second. It was dark as everyone knows. IF this happened then the abductor might just have got lucky. Gerry and Wilkins were in conversation - they didn't even notice Tanner

Who knows . I am just trying to explore that there was an adequate window of opportunity for the abduction to happen after Gerry's check and also for Tanner to spot an exiting person with Maddie. The timings are not impossible as some try and make us  think

I know that you cant directly compare  cases - but if you look back in time at other abductions you see that kids have been snatched in broad day light and no one ever noticed a thing,.  It is only with hindsight that something becomes clearer- That's the point

Again sadly no one knows what happened I could be spectacularly wrong and all the Tapas are in it up to their necks - but my gut feel looking at all the available evidence is that Maddy  was snatched by persons unknown

[Mrs. B]

I am sure if this was the case the abductor wouldn't have exited whistling a merry tune and making a racket - Tanner walked past the gate - she was outside the complex and would have a view of the patio door for a second. It was dark as everyone knows. IF this happened then the abductor might just have got lucky. Gerry and Wilkins were in conversation - they didn't even notice Tanner

Who knows . I am just trying to explore that there was an adequate window of opportunity for the abduction to happen after Gerry's check and also for Tanner to spot an exiting person with Maddie. The timings are not impossible as some try and make us  think

I know that you cant directly compare  cases - but if you look back in time at other abductions you see that kids have been snatched in broad day light and no one ever noticed a thing,.  It is only with hindsight that something becomes clearer- That's the point

Again sadly no one knows what happened I could be spectacularly wrong and all the Tapas are in it up to their necks - but my gut feel looking at all the available evidence is that Maddy  was snatched by persons unknown

We KNOW that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be taken in a criminal act by a stranger. As Scotland Yard has already done a forensic analysis of the timeline & they have come to that conclusion. Scotland Yard, as in; that lot who do have law enforcement authority & some experience in these matters.

[AnneGuedes]

We can guess that if the Yard is still spending time and money to review this case, there were windows of opportunity to take Madeleine out of the flat. Not only the implausible but not impossible one that joins the predator and Mr McCann in the same space without the second being aware of the first, repeating this situation five minutes later when JT passes Mr McCann "incognito".