Anything and everything

[Aiofe]

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/features/at-what-age-can-a-child-be-left-at-home-alone-1.807015?referrerPath=features

But there are exceptions. Last week a Carlisle mother was jailed for 56 days for leaving her two children, both under school age, at home alone when she went to buy cigarettes.

Possibly a little more complex than going to the shops:

"Police were called to the house for an unrelated incident and found them asleep with no blankets on one bed and no pillows on the other. The house was dirty, strewn with clothes, waste bags and empty alcohol bottles.

The woman’s lawyer told the court she had never been in trouble before and had mental health issues.

The woman, who admitted child cruelty, also pleaded guilty to criminal damage on December 13 when she visited her boyfriend, cut her wrist and smeared ‘I love you’ on the wall in blood. She also admitted resisting a police officer on the same day."

[Aiofe]

www.walesonline.co.uk/.../mother-jailed-leaving-baby-home-2058016‎

Not entirely dissimilar. Left home alone while she went out partying.

N

Link does not work. I suspect we shall find a big difference when we see the whole story as with the above example- not cigarette shopping but the whole package of child care.

Perhaps you can quote the first sentence and I can google for it,

[BigFatBlonde]

Link does not work. I suspect we shall find a big difference when we see the whole story as with the above example- not cigarette shopping but the whole package of child care.

Perhaps you can quote the first sentence and I can google for it,

Same story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-19318591

[Aiofe]

www.walesonline.co.uk/.../mother-jailed-leaving-baby-home-2058016‎

Not entirely dissimilar. Left home alone while she went out partying.

And let us not forget it wasn't just Madeleine that was left. How old were the twins again?

N

As I suspected

Left alone consecutive days for over 24 hours
Baby in unheated house in winter
Baby denied food and water for 24 hours at a time
No nappy change- severe nappy rash with bleeding

and you have the brass cheek to say this is like the McCanns!


A young mother has been jailed for leaving her baby home alone every day for a week while she went out partying.

The 20-year-old left her 15-month-old daughter in her cot while she was out drinking with friends.

A court heard heard how she would "pop back" every day to feed the baby breakfast cereal and a microwave meal.

But she would then return to a friend's flat to continue partying over last Christmas and New Year.

The alarm was raised when neighbours called police after hearing the little girl's screams coming from the house in Brecon, Powys.

The court heard two officers arrived to find the house in darkness, very cold inside and with all the rooms in a mess.

Prosecutor Michael Hammett said: "The house was in a state of disarray with rubbish, dirty clothes, empty wine bottles, beer cans and dirty nappies strewn over the floors.

"One of the officers went into the bedroom and found the little girl subdued in her crib.

"There was no heating on in the house and she was partly covered by a blanket."

The court heard the tot was taken to the nearby police station where officers went out to a local corner shop to buy nappies, clean clothes and baby wipes for the little girl.

Mr Hammett said: "When they gave her food and drink she grabbed them as if she had been starved."

The mother, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told police she had been back to the house on four occasions to feed her baby but then left her home alone again.

When police entered the mother's home, the girl had been on her own for more than 24 hours.

She was examined by a doctor and found to have severe nappy rash which was bleeding.

[Aiofe]

Same story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-19318591

Same response plus:

"The house was in a state of disarray with rubbish, dirty clothes, empty wine bottles, beer cans and dirty nappies strewn over the floors," he said.

Are you feeling a bit of an arse?

[BigFatBlonde]

The mother left the child - the state of the house is of no consequence. She was not jailed for having an untidy house.

The baby had nappy rash. She was not jailed for that. How do we know the McCann twins didn't have nappy rash?

At least this girl only left one child alone when she went out on the drink. She might have got longer inside if it was three.

N

[Cariad]

Possibly a little more complex than going to the shops:

"Police were called to the house for an unrelated incident and found them asleep with no blankets on one bed and no pillows on the other. The house was dirty, strewn with clothes, waste bags and empty alcohol bottles.

The woman’s lawyer told the court she had never been in trouble before and had mental health issues.

The woman, who admitted child cruelty, also pleaded guilty to criminal damage on December 13 when she visited her boyfriend, cut her wrist and smeared ‘I love you’ on the wall in blood. She also admitted resisting a police officer on the same day."

She wasn't jailed for her poor house keeping abilities. She was jailed for leaving her children alone.

[Aiofe]

Well Coco, Cariad & BFB have given you examples, there is another in Ilfracombe that I'm aware of.

Not one of them anything like the Mccanns.

[CPN]

Most of these cases being discussed involve 10/11/+ old children, so the situations are very different.

The NSPCC guidelines quoted on Cariad's link are far more relevant in this case, considering the ages of the McCann children- - “We say that you should never leave a baby or toddler alone at all, even for a short time, regardless of whether they are asleep or awake."

[Aiofe]

She wasn't jailed for her poor house keeping abilities. She was jailed for leaving her children alone.

No. Neglect is much wider than just leaving children alone. It involves failing to meet their needs in many ways- go read the 1933 Act which covers it. Warmth, Food, Liquids, clothes, acceptable environment.

Every successful case of neglect that I have seen go through the courts successfully involves more than mere absence. I used to have a really neat spread sheet but that is now buried on some stand alone hard disc and I can't be bothered to find it.

We are looking for a court conviction of a parent who merely left children alone, their other physical needs being met for warmth, food, drink, secure environment etc. No other accompanying crimes such as drug abuse or violence, and no cases of previous criminal offences, particularly not a series of neglect and cruelty cases leading up to a final removal.

The Mccanns had

No previous criminal convictions
No Childcare concerns
No illegal acts at the same time
Met the physical needs of the children
Checked them regularly.

Find me a case like that that has resulted in a conviction in the UK.

[Aiofe]

Most of these cases being discussed involve 10/11/+ old children, so the situations are very different.

The NSPCC guidelines quoted on Cariad's link are far more relevant in this case, considering the ages of the McCann children- - “We say that you should never leave a baby or toddler alone at all, even for a short time, regardless of whether they are asleep or awake."

Examples then of convictions for simply leaving toddlers alone with no other neglect or abuse issues.

I have references to two babies drowned in a bath, one involving alcohol and one involving drugs.

But nothing like the McCanns.

It is difficult to get a conviction on this is UK courts. About 2000 occur each year out of hundreds of thousands of referrals for neglect and abuse. Most are dealt with administratively.

[BigFatBlonde]

Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.

I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did.

That's funny. We used to scrimp and save but could only afford for me and my dad to go to Butlins. We would go out and, when it got a little late my dad would come back to the chalet with me. He just wouldn't see it as a holiday if he wasn't having fun with his child.

Just goes to show how different people are eh? Some would do anything for their kids and want to be with them and some look for any excuse to slope off and have a pint.

N

[Aiofe]

Why do you constantly bring Kate & Gerry into the discussion ?

You professed -

My contention is that it is very rare for neglect charges to be successful in the UK without severe harm coming to the child.

Cariad & BFB disproved your contention !

No they did not.

[BigFatBlonde]

Examples then of convictions for simply leaving toddlers alone with no other neglect or abuse issues.

I have references to two babies drowned in a bath, one involving alcohol and one involving drugs.

But nothing like the McCanns.

It is difficult to get a conviction on this is UK courts. About 2000 occur each year out of hundreds of thousands of referrals for neglect and abuse. Most are dealt with administratively.

Come on, surely someone can find an example which will please Alfie?

No, oh maybe that's because you are on a hiding to nowt because nothing will ever satisfy them.

It may not be a case of criminal neglect with the McCanns but it is certainly neglectful behaviour to leave 3 kids alone while you go out. Just because you can't be sent to prison for it does not make it right. 3 kids and two of them infants, may not be illegal but it is disgraceful.

N

[CPN]

Examples then of convictions for simply leaving toddlers alone with no other neglect or abuse issues.
I have references to two babies drowned in a bath, one involving alcohol and one involving drugs.
But nothing like the McCanns.
It is difficult to get a conviction on this is UK courts. About 2000 occur each year out of hundreds of thousands of referrals for neglect and abuse. Most are dealt with administratively.

Well, I have hesitated to write this as I cannot prove it.   But when I started as a Child Care Officer in the late 1960s I had three sisters in care who has been removed in circumstances very similar to the ones we are discussing.

Anyway, we were talking about whether leaving them in the way they were left was neglect or not, not whether or not there had been a prosecution.   In fact as I have said before, and as you appear to have confirmed unless I have totally misunderstood your post, not all cases of child abuse of any kind result in prosecution - most are dealt with in other ways.  But that does not mean that the abuse / neglect / whatever did not occur