The timings of Jeremy's calls to Julie and to the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have read West's trail testimony, many times - what I think is 'odd; is that he didn't call 999

If you have read West's trial testimony many times I am surprised you thought it 'odd' that JB phoned Witham since it is clear from his testimony that Witham covers WHF.  And I am even more surprised that you haven't asked JB.  Or perhaps you have but unlike the wallet don't feel you can divulge.   

I skim read West's trial testimony when I joined Blue and read if fully for the first time this w.e.  To my mind the phone calls are too subjective and nothing can be proved either way.  Posters can speculate until the cows come home but as far as I can see it doesn't advance anything.  If you compare it by today's standards of irrefutable  audit trails showing incoming and outgoing calls timed to the second and all calls to police stations recorded it's just a nonsense.  Especially given that all those involved in providing times/WS's were not asked to remember in any serious detail until over a month later!   

The definition of 'odd' is different to what is usual or expected; strange    What are you using as your precedent when you say you think it is 'odd' that JB didn't call 999? 

[Caroline]

If you have read West's trial testimony many times I am surprised you thought it 'odd' that JB phoned Witham since it is clear from his testimony that Witham covers WHF.  And I am even more surprised that you haven't asked JB.  Or perhaps you have but unlike the wallet don't feel you can divulge.   

I skim read West's trial testimony when I joined Blue and read if fully for the first time this w.e.  To my mind the phone calls are too subjective and nothing can be proved either way.  Posters can speculate until the cows come home but as far as I can see it doesn't advance anything.  If you compare it by today's standards of irrefutable  audit trails showing incoming and outgoing calls timed to the second and all calls to police stations recorded it's just a nonsense.  Especially given that all those involved in providing times/WS's were not asked to remember in any serious detail until over a month later!   

The definition of 'odd' is different to what is usual or expected; strange    What are you using as your precedent when you say you think it is 'odd' that JB didn't call 999?

I'm NOT talking about calling Witham, I said it's odd that he didn't dial 999! The fact that 'crazy' and 'gun' was mentioned in a call supposedly received at 3am - doesn't need a 'precedent' it's common sense. You asked for a source that mentions JB stating his father sounded 'frightened' both West and Myall mention this - here is Myall's statement (page 2).

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[Holly Goodhead]

I'm NOT talking about calling Witham, I said it's odd that he didn't dial 999! The fact that 'crazy' and 'gun' was mentioned in a call supposedly received at 3am - doesn't need a 'precedent' it's common sense. You asked for a source that mentions JB stating his father sounded 'frightened' both West and Myall mention this - here is Myall's statement (page 2).

You also said you thought it "odd" that JB called Witham which I am surprised about given that you claim to have read West's WS many times and hence would understand that Witham covered WHF.  If JB is guilty what would be the advantage to him of calling Witham and eventually Chelmsford over 999?  As far as I can see nothing?  In any event as far as I am aware when a member of the public calls the police about an incident regardless of whether they call the local station or 999  the police determine the level of seriousness and appropriate response based on effectively a Q&A session with the caller.  This can be evidenced by West's WS.  You must have seen crime/emergency services dramas and witnessed similar?

JB claims:

- He was woken by his phone ringing at approx 3.10am
- It was NB and he said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got the gun" (nothing about coming over)
- The line went dead
- JB called back twice using the redial button on his phone.  Both occasions he got the engaged tone (seems to contradict with tel eng testimony at trial)
- He then called Witham no response
- He then called Chelmsford and spoke with West who got in touch with Witham and a car was sent

Other info that may have had a  bearing on JB's decision making:

- SC had a long history of mental illness
- SC had no previous history of serious violence and aggression
- NB managed SC's moods/condition with some success eg when she phoned him late at night claiming to be Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc, leader of CND and when he was called to her London flat by Freddie.
- Did NB want JB to go over and assist in recovering the gun from her?
- NB had a low opinion of the police
- NB liked to keep family matters within the immediate family
- NB was a local magistrate: privacy as above and familiar with local police
- Did NB want JB to call the police knowing it would be time consuming to give all the personal details and background.  Meanwhile NB could try and calm/reason with SC
- What sort of navigation system did patrol cars have if any?  If a map only perhaps WHF was difficult to find and NB thought JB could assist with directions
- If the police were called would it make the situation worse as with the electricity man?  What could the police do if SC was being totally unreasonable in possession of a loaded firearm?  Dont think taser guns were around then?  In the end they might have had to shoot to maim?

The phone calls are subjective and based on the whims of human behaviour both in terms of NB and JB's response and how others interpret them.  In the absence of digitally recorded call times and taped recordings its all hopelessly unreliable.  I dont think anything can be read into the phone calls in isolation its all part of a bigger picture.

I think you will find JB uses the word "distressed" to describe NB and not "frightened" as claimed by West and Myalls.

The only thing that stands out for me is the fact that at trial the tel eng said if WHF was off the hook JB would not be able to call out at Goldhanger for 1 - 2 minutes.  And yet he said he redialled NB immediately by hitting his redial button and got the engaged tone?

[Caroline]

You also said you thought it "odd" that JB called Witham which I am surprised about given that you claim to have read West's WS many times and hence would understand that Witham covered WHF.  If JB is guilty what would be the advantage to him of calling Witham and eventually Chelmsford over 999?  As far as I can see nothing?  In any event as far as I am aware when a member of the public calls the police about an incident regardless of whether they call the local station or 999  the police determine the level of seriousness and appropriate response based on effectively a Q&A session with the caller.  This can be evidenced by West's WS.  You must have seen crime/emergency services dramas and witnessed similar?

JB claims:

- He was woken by his phone ringing at approx 3.10am
- It was NB and he said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got the gun" (nothing about coming over)
- The line went dead
- JB called back twice using the redial button on his phone.  Both occasions he got the engaged tone (seems to contradict with tel eng testimony at trial)
- He then called Witham no response
- He then called Chelmsford and spoke with West who got in touch with Witham and a car was sent

Other info that may have had a  bearing on JB's decision making:

- SC had a long history of mental illness
- SC had no previous history of serious violence and aggression
- NB managed SC's moods/condition with some success eg when she phoned him late at night claiming to be Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc, leader of CND and when he was called to her London flat by Freddie.
- Did NB want JB to go over and assist in recovering the gun from her?
- NB had a low opinion of the police
- NB liked to keep family matters within the immediate family
- NB was a local magistrate: privacy as above and familiar with local police
- Did NB want JB to call the police knowing it would be time consuming to give all the personal details and background.  Meanwhile NB could try and calm/reason with SC
- What sort of navigation system did patrol cars have if any?  If a map only perhaps WHF was difficult to find and NB thought JB could assist with directions
- If the police were called would it make the situation worse as with the electricity man?  What could the police do if SC was being totally unreasonable in possession of a loaded firearm?  Dont think taser guns were around then?  In the end they might have had to shoot to maim?

The phone calls are subjective and based on the whims of human behaviour both in terms of NB and JB's response and how others interpret them.  In the absence of digitally recorded call times and taped recordings its all hopelessly unreliable.  I dont think anything can be read into the phone calls in isolation its all part of a bigger picture.

I think you will find JB uses the word "distressed" to describe NB and not "frightened" as claimed by West and Myalls.

The only thing that stands out for me is the fact that at trial the tel eng said if WHF was off the hook JB would not be able to call out at Goldhanger for 1 - 2 minutes.  And yet he said he redialled NB immediately by hitting his redial button and got the engaged tone?

Odd because he called a local cop shop and not 999!!  . If you have an emergency would you WASTE precious time by b....ring about looking up the number of the local cop shop or just dial 999? It's not which station he called that's the issue, it's the fact that he 'said' it took around 10 mins to look up a number after a call in which his father sounded 'frightened' and he could have just called 999. That's the point. Whatever word you think he used probably depends on who you believe - West had no reason to lie.

The concern over the phone call is based on 'common sense'. However, people can argue that a call received in the early hours of the morning from someone frightened (or distressed) seeking help because his schizophrenic daughter had gone crazy and had a gun - just didn't warrant a 999 call and that a meander through the phone book for a local cop shop number is quite understandable. However, I think most people will think differently.

[John]

I have already said on many occasions that had I received a call from my dad in similar circumstances I would have been in the car and at the farm within minutes police or no police.  Another thing, if Jerry's 'story' is true, why didn't he show the first police on the scene how to get into the house via the unsecured window? 
Hmm...  that story of his doesn't really add up to much does it?   

[Caroline]

I have already said on many occasions that had I received a call from my dad in similar circumstances I would have been in the car and at the farm within minutes police or no police.  Another thing, if Jerry's 'story' is true, why didn't he show the first police on the scene how to get into the house via the unsecured window? 
Hmm...  that story of his doesn't really add up to much does it?   

A phone call like that, at that hour would make a very uneasy mind, if you cared enough, you would want to know what was going on and I agree that you woud either head on over there, dial 999 or both. Perusing the phone book for 10 mins is just odd.

[John]

A phone call like that, at that hour would make a very uneasy mind, if you cared enough, you would want to know what was going on and I agree that you woud either head on over there, dial 999 or both. Perusing the phone book for 10 mins is just odd.

Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived.  His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention.  But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.

[Caroline]

Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived.  His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention.  But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.

I have always argued that he didn't want the police to storm the house in case they realised the victims had been dead longer than Jeremy indicated - but perhaps he did want them to go in. If guilty, he knew how long they had been dead, if it had been within the last hour, it probably wouldn't have made much difference to how they treated the crime (4 murders and a suicide). As it happened, it worked out even more in his favour as time went on. I agree about the window and if it had been me, they would have had to restrain me from trying to get in.

[John]

I have always argued that he didn't want the police to storm the house in case they realised the victims had been dead longer than Jeremy indicated - but perhaps he did to go in. If guilty, he knew how long they had been dead, if it had been within the last hour, it probably wouldn't have made much difference to how they treated the crime (4 murders and a suicide). As it happened, it worked out even more in his favour as time went on. I agree about the window and if it had been me, they would have had to restrain me from trying to get in.

Absolutely, me too!   By not doing any of the obvious things Jerry drew attention to himself and Stan Jones just wasn't having it.  That's why he shadowed him to Goldhanger and was taking it all in.

[APRIL]

Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived.  His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention.  But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.

He was extremely lucky that they didn't catch a car coming back from a shout in Tollesbury. Had that happened he wouldn't have seen it in his rear view mirror because it would have been coming from the opposite direction and would have been there is less than 5 minutes.

[adam]

Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived.  His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention.  But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.

That's a good point. He would be banging on the doors, windows, shouting through the letter box. Anything to divert Sheila's attention from his  family that she may be about to shoot. He would be encouraging the police to do the same.

He may have tried to get in the window he knew he could get in. And asked the police to follow him in through. Perhaps he wanted to keep the windows his special secret.

Instead he casually walked around WHF & then sat in a police car.

[John]

That's a good point. He would be banging on the doors, windows, shouting through the letter box. Anything to divert Sheila's attention from his  family that she may be about to shoot. He would be encouraging the police to do the same.

He may have tried to get in the window he knew he could get in. And asked the police to follow him in through. Perhaps he wanted to keep the windows his special secret.

Instead he casually walked around WHF & then sat in a police car.

Clearly he didn't want the police to know he could get into the house by an unsecured window.

[Tim Invictus]

I am happy to bet my house against a pot noodle Neville made no phone calls that night .... he was awoken by being shot by his own son!

(The insult is Bamber's story; not by Adam for bringing it up for debate!)

Ridiculous modification John! Stop doing that!

[Holly Goodhead]

Odd because he called a local cop shop and not 999!!  . If you have an emergency would you WASTE precious time by b....ring about looking up the number of the local cop shop or just dial 999? It's not which station he called that's the issue, it's the fact that he 'said' it took around 10 mins to look up a number after a call in which his father sounded 'frightened' and he could have just called 999. That's the point. Whatever word you think he used probably depends on who you believe - West had no reason to lie.

The concern over the phone call is based on 'common sense'. However, people can argue that a call received in the early hours of the morning from someone frightened (or distressed) seeking help because his schizophrenic daughter had gone crazy and had a gun - just didn't warrant a 999 call and that a meander through the phone book for a local cop shop number is quite understandable. However, I think most people will think differently.

You and Adam said it was odd JB called Witham as opposed to other closer stations eg Tiptree.  However it is clear Witham covers WHF hence JB called Witham.  In any event it should be common sense that it doesn't matter which station is called Lands End, John o' Groats, 999 the communication is such that the nearest patrol car is sent regardless.

In JB's mind it was not necessarily an emergency which I can understand if you consider the background and NB's message.

I think when asked how long it took to look up the number he said 10 minutes at the outside.  That doesn't mean to say it took 10 mins.  Guys tend to over estimate the length of things 

The exact words used are VERY IMPORTANT.  They convey different meanings.  I believe JB said NB sounded distressed - as you would expect if SC appeared how she did when Freddie Emani witnessed her banging her fists on the wall and according to him ranting and raving - FE said when NB walked through the door SC was a changed person so maybe NB hadn't witnessed her in the sort of state she was in and found it distressing.  I've already said West had no reason to lie but I know from personal experience at work that people have difficulty in relaying oral communication word for word and the message often gets distorted in translation.  It is clear from West's trial testimony that he got muddled at points. You will have heard of Chinese whispers!

I see nothing sinister in JB's actions/choices based on the complete background and individuals involved.  The phone calls are entirely subjective and prove absolutely nothing.

I don't understand the advantage to JB in creating a delay?  If he murdered his entire family, he then had to cycle back to Goldhanger in his wetsuit, get rid of any incriminating evidence, wash the bike down, wash and change he would surely want to speed things up as he couldn't be sure that the police wouldn't storm WHF and if times of death had been taken he could have been caught out!  Surely he would want to speed everything up?  Or perhaps I'm missing the point  &%+((£

[Caroline]

You and Adam said it was odd JB called Witham as opposed to other closer stations eg Tiptree.  However it is clear Witham covers WHF hence JB called Witham.  In any event it should be common sense that it doesn't matter which station is called Lands End, John o' Groats, 999 the communication is such that the nearest patrol car is sent regardless.

In JB's mind it was not necessarily an emergency which I can understand if you consider the background and NB's message.

I think when asked how long it took to look up the number he said 10 minutes at the outside.  That doesn't mean to say it took 10 mins.  Guys tend to over estimate the length of things 

The exact words used are VERY IMPORTANT.  They convey different meanings.  I believe JB said NB sounded distressed - as you would expect if SC appeared how she did when Freddie Emani witnessed her banging her fists on the wall and according to him ranting and raving - FE said when NB walked through the door SC was a changed person so maybe NB hadn't witnessed her in the sort of state she was in and found it distressing.  I've already said West had no reason to lie but I know from personal experience at work that people have difficulty in relaying oral communication word for word and the message often gets distorted in translation.  It is clear from West's trial testimony that he got muddled at points. You will have heard of Chinese whispers!

I see nothing sinister in JB's actions/choices based on the complete background and individuals involved.  The phone calls are entirely subjective and prove absolutely nothing.

I don't understand the advantage to JB in creating a delay?  If he murdered his entire family, he then had to cycle back to Goldhanger in his wetsuit, get rid of any incriminating evidence, wash the bike down, wash and change he would surely want to speed things up as he couldn't be sure that the police wouldn't storm WHF and if times of death had been taken he could have been caught out!  Surely he would want to speed everything up?  Or perhaps I'm missing the point  &%+((£

Where did I mention a wetsuit or a bicycle?  &%+((£

It still stands that if you get a call at 3am (ish), someone is pretty desperate if they are asking for help and if it made no difference which station he called, it makes even MORE sense for him to have called 999. He possibly thought he needed to explain the delay between HIM calling his phone from WHF and making his way back home. At such a point he didn't know that the call couldn't be checked. There is no excuse for him NOT to have called 999 - it's just common sense.