Mark Warner Holidays

[Brietta]

Russell knew that the blocks contained both private and holiday accommodation;

 MARK WARNER didn’t own every, every apartment in every block, they had a, sort of a splattering of apartments across the Ocean Club.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

By the time of the rogatory interviews I imagine there was little about the village and and the Mark Warner set up within it that Russell et al weren't aware of.

The pertinent question was how aware were they all prior to the holiday taking place that the 'MW' apartment blocks were not exclusive to the holiday company?
Did David Payne who organised the short stay make prior mention of the fact?  Did anyone?

[G-Unit]

By the time of the rogatory interviews I imagine there was little about the village and and the Mark Warner set up within it that Russell et al weren't aware of.

The pertinent question was how aware were they all prior to the holiday taking place that the 'MW' apartment blocks were not exclusive to the holiday company?
Did David Payne who organised the short stay make prior mention of the fact?  Did anyone?

It was certainly clear that there was no enclosed complex separate from local life;

The unusual setting of the Ocean Club is just one of the reasons why this Mark Warner destination is so unique. A series of private areas, surrounded by individual villa-style accommodations dotted throughout an independently working village gives a sense of space and personality whilst having the exclusive Mark Warner holiday facilities that make a holiday with us so different.

Set on a gentle hillside, Praia Da Luz is home to a small but thriving community set amongst a surprising number of small bars, restaurants, cafes, boutiques and shops where you’re just as likely to pass a local as a fellow tourist. Travelling with Mark Warner will gain you access to three private club areas, each with their own pool and bar, café or restaurant facilities. Their locations encourage you to explore the whole village, whether it be heading for breakfast, a cooling dip or an afternoon on the sandy beach.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070215095143/http://www.markwarner.co.uk:80/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club

[Brietta]

It was certainly clear that there was no enclosed complex separate from local life;

The unusual setting of the Ocean Club is just one of the reasons why this Mark Warner destination is so unique. A series of private areas, surrounded by individual villa-style accommodations dotted throughout an independently working village gives a sense of space and personality whilst having the exclusive Mark Warner holiday facilities that make a holiday with us so different.

Set on a gentle hillside, Praia Da Luz is home to a small but thriving community set amongst a surprising number of small bars, restaurants, cafes, boutiques and shops where you’re just as likely to pass a local as a fellow tourist. Travelling with Mark Warner will gain you access to three private club areas, each with their own pool and bar, café or restaurant facilities. Their locations encourage you to explore the whole village, whether it be heading for breakfast, a cooling dip or an afternoon on the sandy beach.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070215095143/http://www.markwarner.co.uk:80/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club

Snip
All inclusive holidays  >  Summer  >  Portugal  >  Ocean Club  >  Resort Details
Ocean Club Summer Beach Resort

Accommodation
Accommodation is arranged in the villa-style apartments which are available in one or two bedrooms.  Layouts are sensibly arranged – a one-bedroom apartment will accommodate a family of four, two bedrooms up to six, and all have their own balcony or patio. All apartments have washing machines and direct dial telephones in addition to the kitchens with utilities that come as standard.

Food & Drink
At the Ocean Club, your half-board package includes breakfast served at the Millennium Restaurant, where you help yourself to a cooked, continental or healthier start to the day, and either lunch or dinner, (carte de table or buffet selection) in one of the two family friendly village restaurants. House wine is included with dinner.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070224210231/http://www.markwarner.co.uk:80/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club/resort_details


I don't see anything there which would have led me as a visitor circa 2007 to expect anything other than accommodation dedicated to the ownership of MW.
The accommodation occupied by the McCanns was not sitting cheek by jowl with picturesque fisher cottages; in my opinion it gave every appearance of being the exclusive property of the holiday company.
Particularly as it was billed as "A series of private areas" which to all intent and purposes most certainly resembled Block 5 and the blocks in near proximity which surrounded it.

[Robittybob1]

"I don't see anything there which would have led me as a visitor circa 2007 to expect anything other than accommodation dedicated to the ownership of MW."

It certainly isn't made clear.

[Alice Purjorick]

Does anyone have a copy of the Mark Warner standard form of contract for this style of offering?
That might be a good place to start if one is trying to work out which party was responsible for what together with any liability incurred by each party.
Of course a copy of what the McCann Party signed up for would be "top of the shop".
RTFSPS as we say.

[G-Unit]

Snip
All inclusive holidays  >  Summer  >  Portugal  >  Ocean Club  >  Resort Details
Ocean Club Summer Beach Resort

Accommodation
Accommodation is arranged in the villa-style apartments which are available in one or two bedrooms.  Layouts are sensibly arranged – a one-bedroom apartment will accommodate a family of four, two bedrooms up to six, and all have their own balcony or patio. All apartments have washing machines and direct dial telephones in addition to the kitchens with utilities that come as standard.

Food & Drink
At the Ocean Club, your half-board package includes breakfast served at the Millennium Restaurant, where you help yourself to a cooked, continental or healthier start to the day, and either lunch or dinner, (carte de table or buffet selection) in one of the two family friendly village restaurants. House wine is included with dinner.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070224210231/http://www.markwarner.co.uk:80/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club/resort_details


I don't see anything there which would have led me as a visitor circa 2007 to expect anything other than accommodation dedicated to the ownership of MW.
The accommodation occupied by the McCanns was not sitting cheek by jowl with picturesque fisher cottages; in my opinion it gave every appearance of being the exclusive property of the holiday company.
Particularly as it was billed as "A series of private areas" which to all intent and purposes most certainly resembled Block 5 and the blocks in near proximity which surrounded it.

I don't understand why it's significant who owned the blocks or the apartments come to that. The significance lies in the lack of an enclosed complex imo.

Pity they didn't know the number for the police. If they had direct dial telephones they wouldn't have needed to run up and down to reception.

[Alice Purjorick]

I don't understand why it's significant who owned the blocks or the apartments come to that. The significance lies in the lack of an enclosed complex imo.

Pity they didn't know the number for the police. If they had direct dial telephones they wouldn't have needed to run up and down to reception.

It isn't significant it is irrelevant. Unless that is Mark Warner contracted with the McCann Party to allocate to them only accommodations owned by Mark Warner. Without having seen the contract one suspects it will say something like ".....blah dee bleedin' dah or equal......"

[Brietta]

Anyway ~ if one cares to apply the "duck test" ~ it seems that there was a bit of ignorance about the accommodation included in the Mark Warner and Thomas Cook holidays at the resort in Luz.

Snip
The Ocean Club is a purpose built, village style holiday resort situated near the attractive, sandy beach of Praia da Luz.
Dotted around the Ocean Club, and set amongst attractive, well-maintained gardens, there are several, large, inviting outdoor pools, including separate ones for children, families and a very well secluded pool area for adults only.
________________________________________________________________________________

The Ocean Club village itself is set amongst cobbled streets and most appartments are quite private with either a terrace or balcony, surrounded by attractively planted gardens, full of exotic flowers. The apartment we stayed in had a large, raised terrace from which we had a view of the sea.
The final downside, was the extra beds. Four of us stayed in a one bed apartment, which was in itself, like a small flat, with its own kitchen, dining table and chairs, living area, good bathroom with bath and shower, a large raised terrace with sea views and a seperate bedroom. The twin beds in the seperate bedroom were comfortable enough, however, the sofa bed and camper bed we were provided with, were atrocious! They might be suitable for small children, but to expect a fully grown adult to sleep on those things, was appalling. In short, if you have back problems, make sure you sleep on the beds in the bedroom and do not go anywhere near the camper or sofa beds!
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or190-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Our visit to Ocean Club Apartments was in mid-November, which meant that we got extremely good off-peak rates. A spacious, comfortable three bedroom apartment for 96 Euros per night. It certainly felt like we got good value for money!

The bedroom and lounge had lovely sea views and we could enjoy the sunrise and sunset. In warmer months, the large balcony would provide extra living space, although we made little use of it in the autumn temperatures. However, the Ocean Club apartments are spread throughout Praia de Luz and so you need to make sure that you know which location you are getting.

We travelled with our 18 month old son, and the apartment was well suited to families. It had two full bathrooms and a good sized, well equiped kitchen (although no microwave, which would have been useful). The outside temperature at night was cool, but fortunately there was an electric heater in one bedroom and the gas fire in the lounge kept the apartment warm. The bed was comfortable but small (double rather than King).

A point to note is that the apartment was cleaned about three times per week, not every day. That meant that we had to put some effort into keeping the kitchen clean and tidy, in particular. No dishwasher either, so we had to wash up by hand when we cooked.

Although the Ocean Club has many facilities (swimming pools, tennis courts, bars, restaurants), very little is open in the off peak season. In fact the whole town was very quiet, and we liked it that way.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or190-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html



The Ocean Club comprises a variety of apartments and villas of varying quality. Initially we stayed in an apartment at the top of the resort which was clean, modern and well laid out. However, the bedroom was very damp and the twin beds were especially damp and uncomfortable. After we became infested with ants we moved to a town house which was nicely finished, although others we saw were far less attractively furnished. All appeared to suffer to a greater or lesser extent with damp. This may have been due to the unusually wet weather during October this year but I would not be too sure. In general the Ocean club facilities were quite good - although the outdoor pool was too cold to use out of the peak season and the indoor pool was rather small. We travelled with Thomas Cook –
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


We booked the Ocean Club on a last minute deal through Mark Warner and were very impressed. We took our 9 month old son on his first trip abroad and were a little nervous but we couldn't really have asked for a better resort and accommodation. We stayed at the back of the resort and it was a little walk to the beach but we spent most of the time around the pool. The accommodation was very clean and well equipped with microwave, washing machine and fully fitted kitchen.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Stayed at the apartment King Palm 1 which was absoluteley fantastic. In a fantastic location for our party of four. Close to reception and the adult pool . ( my parents may not have been able to cope if we had been given one of the apartments at the top of the resort as it is a bit of a walk back up the hill from the beach) but as we were allocated the King Palm 1 that did not effect us. We were all very impressed with the apartment Very nicely furnished and spotlessly clean with everything you would need for a self catering holiday and the most gorgeous view from every single window. We had opted for the Half Board option and dined in the Millenium Club.
We spent most of our time in the adult pool which was very peaceful, They have a system which we had never come across before which was to ring the door bell to enter hte poolside area, where we had to hand our passes in to staff' On our first day it took us a while to realise that we were supposed to ring the bell! so made a bit of a noise trying to get in!
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Spent 4 weeks in the resort September/October 2007 after booking direct with the owner - yes you can book direct with the owners of the apartments as they are all privately owned.
Would I go back - you bet I would - I am hoping to go for a 6 week break this next January/February - again booking direct with the owner of the property (much cheaper than booking through Mark Warner, Thomas Cook or direct with Ocean Club).
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or170-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


If it looks like a duck etc ... ... ...
The majority of reviewers appear neither to have known of or cared that Mark Warner and Thomas Cook didn't own the properties included in their holidays in the resort or that (in the case with access to the pool) certain unfamiliar protocols were in place because of the nature of the resort.

Therefore did the nature of the layout of the apartments cause the McCann party to assume they were all owned by the holiday company and not just factored from their owners?

[Alice Purjorick]

Anyway ~ if one cares to apply the "duck test" ~ it seems that there was a bit of ignorance about the accommodation included in the Mark Warner and Thomas Cook holidays at the resort in Luz.

Snip
The Ocean Club is a purpose built, village style holiday resort situated near the attractive, sandy beach of Praia da Luz.
Dotted around the Ocean Club, and set amongst attractive, well-maintained gardens, there are several, large, inviting outdoor pools, including separate ones for children, families and a very well secluded pool area for adults only.
________________________________________________________________________________

The Ocean Club village itself is set amongst cobbled streets and most appartments are quite private with either a terrace or balcony, surrounded by attractively planted gardens, full of exotic flowers. The apartment we stayed in had a large, raised terrace from which we had a view of the sea.
The final downside, was the extra beds. Four of us stayed in a one bed apartment, which was in itself, like a small flat, with its own kitchen, dining table and chairs, living area, good bathroom with bath and shower, a large raised terrace with sea views and a seperate bedroom. The twin beds in the seperate bedroom were comfortable enough, however, the sofa bed and camper bed we were provided with, were atrocious! They might be suitable for small children, but to expect a fully grown adult to sleep on those things, was appalling. In short, if you have back problems, make sure you sleep on the beds in the bedroom and do not go anywhere near the camper or sofa beds!
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or190-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Our visit to Ocean Club Apartments was in mid-November, which meant that we got extremely good off-peak rates. A spacious, comfortable three bedroom apartment for 96 Euros per night. It certainly felt like we got good value for money!

The bedroom and lounge had lovely sea views and we could enjoy the sunrise and sunset. In warmer months, the large balcony would provide extra living space, although we made little use of it in the autumn temperatures. However, the Ocean Club apartments are spread throughout Praia de Luz and so you need to make sure that you know which location you are getting.

We travelled with our 18 month old son, and the apartment was well suited to families. It had two full bathrooms and a good sized, well equiped kitchen (although no microwave, which would have been useful). The outside temperature at night was cool, but fortunately there was an electric heater in one bedroom and the gas fire in the lounge kept the apartment warm. The bed was comfortable but small (double rather than King).

A point to note is that the apartment was cleaned about three times per week, not every day. That meant that we had to put some effort into keeping the kitchen clean and tidy, in particular. No dishwasher either, so we had to wash up by hand when we cooked.

Although the Ocean Club has many facilities (swimming pools, tennis courts, bars, restaurants), very little is open in the off peak season. In fact the whole town was very quiet, and we liked it that way.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or190-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html



The Ocean Club comprises a variety of apartments and villas of varying quality. Initially we stayed in an apartment at the top of the resort which was clean, modern and well laid out. However, the bedroom was very damp and the twin beds were especially damp and uncomfortable. After we became infested with ants we moved to a town house which was nicely finished, although others we saw were far less attractively furnished. All appeared to suffer to a greater or lesser extent with damp. This may have been due to the unusually wet weather during October this year but I would not be too sure. In general the Ocean club facilities were quite good - although the outdoor pool was too cold to use out of the peak season and the indoor pool was rather small. We travelled with Thomas Cook –
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


We booked the Ocean Club on a last minute deal through Mark Warner and were very impressed. We took our 9 month old son on his first trip abroad and were a little nervous but we couldn't really have asked for a better resort and accommodation. We stayed at the back of the resort and it was a little walk to the beach but we spent most of the time around the pool. The accommodation was very clean and well equipped with microwave, washing machine and fully fitted kitchen.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Stayed at the apartment King Palm 1 which was absoluteley fantastic. In a fantastic location for our party of four. Close to reception and the adult pool . ( my parents may not have been able to cope if we had been given one of the apartments at the top of the resort as it is a bit of a walk back up the hill from the beach) but as we were allocated the King Palm 1 that did not effect us. We were all very impressed with the apartment Very nicely furnished and spotlessly clean with everything you would need for a self catering holiday and the most gorgeous view from every single window. We had opted for the Half Board option and dined in the Millenium Club.
We spent most of our time in the adult pool which was very peaceful, They have a system which we had never come across before which was to ring the door bell to enter hte poolside area, where we had to hand our passes in to staff' On our first day it took us a while to realise that we were supposed to ring the bell! so made a bit of a noise trying to get in!
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or185-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


Spent 4 weeks in the resort September/October 2007 after booking direct with the owner - yes you can book direct with the owners of the apartments as they are all privately owned.
Would I go back - you bet I would - I am hoping to go for a 6 week break this next January/February - again booking direct with the owner of the property (much cheaper than booking through Mark Warner, Thomas Cook or direct with Ocean Club).
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-or170-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html


If it looks like a duck etc ... ... ...
The majority of reviewers appear neither to have known of or cared that Mark Warner and Thomas Cook didn't own the properties included in their holidays in the resort or that (in the case with access to the pool) certain unfamiliar protocols were in place because of the nature of the resort.

Therefore did the nature of the layout of the apartments cause the McCann party to assume they were all owned by the holiday company and not just factored from their owners?

Why would that be of any relevance?
Incidentally the duck test is irrelevant too; the law looks at it differently which in this instance will roughly be looking at terms which are "necessary and obvious...to give business efficacy" rather than terms being implied merely because they appear "desirable and reasonable". That can work both ways so one needs to be on ones guard.
Are you suggesting,anyway,that the Mark Warner advertising blurb constitited an offer that could be accepted?

[Brietta]

Why would that be of any relevance?
Incidentally the duck test is irrelevant too; the law looks at it differently which in this instance will roughly be looking at terms which are "necessary and obvious...to give business efficacy" rather than terms being implied merely because they appear "desirable and reasonable". That can work both ways so one needs to be on ones guard.
Are you suggesting,anyway,that the Mark Warner advertising blurb constitited an offer that could be accepted?

Sorry, haven't a clue what you are on about ... I don't think that the question I asked was all that complicated; what I should have remembered was that I was posting on the Madeleine board where absolutely nothing is simple or uncomplicated.

[Alice Purjorick]

Sorry, haven't a clue what you are on about ... I don't think that the question I asked was all that complicated; what I should have remembered was that I was posting on the Madeleine board where absolutely nothing is simple or uncomplicated.

It had not passed unnoticed which is a reflection on me rather than you. I apologise for using language outside your understanding.

OK then keep it simple.
Why do you think ownership of apartments has any relevance in this instance?

[Robittybob1]

It had not passed unnoticed which is a reflection on me rather than you. I apologise for using language outside your understanding.

OK then keep it simple.
Why do you think ownership of apartments has any relevance in this instance?

It came a problem for the PJ to inspect neighbouring apartments to the McCanns because OC did not have access to the keys.

[jassi]

It came a problem for the PJ to inspect neighbouring apartments to the McCanns because OC did not have access to the keys.

A problem after the event rather than before.

[Brietta]

It had not passed unnoticed which is a reflection on me rather than you. I apologise for using language outside your understanding.

OK then keep it simple.
Why do you think ownership of apartments has any relevance in this instance?

[G-Unit]

It had not passed unnoticed which is a reflection on me rather than you. I apologise for using language outside your understanding.

OK then keep it simple.
Why do you think ownership of apartments has any relevance in this instance?

The ownership of the apartments is irrelevant to the group's decision to perform their own listening service. What is relevant is that they claimed to have copied the Mark Warner listening service. That was only offered on sites where MW were in control of the area, however. Sites which were separate from any local villages or towns. The Ocean Club wasn't like that, so the T9 listening service is different on that point.

The second difference was that the nannies who did the listening service did nothing else. They were in the vicinity of the apartments all the time. If anything unusual happened they were likely to see or hear it. They would also act as a deterrent if such a thing was needed.