Could all three children have been sedated by an intruder?

[slartibartfast]

"Drug users and drug dealers are not nice people ... and burglars with an expertise in invading homes and getting out without being seen ... are not terribly nice individuals either."

OK thanks "users and dealers" but not "addicts".

Though of course Drug Users are not nice people is a sweeping generalisation.

[Robittybob1]

Though of course Drug Users are not nice people is a sweeping generalisation.

I was using the "Search" function for "addicts" and there were no recent usages of the word on the forum, so it got me confused.  I didn't try "drug" as I thought it would yield too many results. 

Live and learn as they say.

[Sunny]

Could you provide a cite regarding the hospital procedures when a child is admitted to hospital when it is suspected they may have been sedated, thanks.

I have a cite from the police

Initial response if drug or salt-induced poisoning is suspected
Where the investigating officer suspects that drug or salt-induced poisoning is the cause of apparent illness, this should be brought to the attention of an examining physician. A request should be made for appropriate blood, hair and urine samples to be obtained for forensic analysis and hospital use. Some toxins are present in body fluids for only a limited time following administration. The investigating officer should, therefore, identify and seize any material that contains body fluids from the child (eg, traces of blood, vomit, urine or faeces). Feeding bottles and other equipment associated with feeding the child should also be seized for examination along with samples of any leftover food. Advice should be obtained from a CSI on the correct storage, packaging and submission of any items seized.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/major-investigation-and-public-protection/child-abuse/concern-for-a-child/#initial-response-if-drug-or-salt-induced-poisoning-is-suspected

And this

Emergent Clinical Care
Drug testing may identify possible toxins when a patient presents with altered mental status. In truly emergent situations, consent may be inferred, and testing should be considered in accident victims, after a suicide attempt, for unexplained seizures, for syncope or arrhythmias, or in the presence of toxidromal signs and symptoms that render the patient incapable of informed consent. In the case of a toxidrome, physical findings should guide the clinician to test for a specific panel of substances, even with minimal or no history available. A positive test result for a substance suspected on the basis of clinical findings is less likely to be a false-positive or spurious result because of the higher pretest probability in this setting. However, drug testing has significant limitations, even in the emergency setting. Standard laboratory tests detect drug metabolites with an unreliable frequency and often have reference ranges far lower than therapeutic dosages; thus, they may identify substances that are present but not causing the observed symptoms. Emergency management of an obtunded patient, such as the decision to give naloxone, is made on clinical grounds and not on the basis of results of a laboratory test. Nonetheless, the results of a drug test may be helpful in determining management once the patient is stabilized. 19


http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/133/6/e1798

I hope that these two will answer your question.

[Sunny]

That appears to be factually incorrect when you read the statements from the Liaison officers.

Difficult to say really as the FLO statements were given in April 2008 and my post was based upon the McCanns initial response to the twins lethargy. We don't know when the FLO's were told by the McCanns about their drug concerns. The officer I mentioned earlier in this thread didn't get to PDL until the 5th May 2007. 

I hope this clarifies my earlier post Robittybob1

[Robittybob1]

Difficult to say really as the FLO statements were given in April 2008 and my post was based upon the McCanns initial response to the twins lethargy. We don't know when the FLO's were told by the McCanns about their drug concerns. The officer I mentioned earlier in this thread didn't get to PDL until the 5th May 2007. 

I hope this clarifies my earlier post Robittybob1

Did you you read the statements?  The meeting between the McCanns and the FLO was on the 5th.  So IMO they were informed immediately.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm

"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.

I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."

[Robittybob1]

I have a cite from the police

Initial response if drug or salt-induced poisoning is suspected
Where the investigating officer suspects that drug or salt-induced poisoning is the cause of apparent illness, this should be brought to the attention of an examining physician. A request should be made for appropriate blood, hair and urine samples to be obtained for forensic analysis and hospital use. Some toxins are present in body fluids for only a limited time following administration. The investigating officer should, therefore, identify and seize any material that contains body fluids from the child (eg, traces of blood, vomit, urine or faeces). Feeding bottles and other equipment associated with feeding the child should also be seized for examination along with samples of any leftover food. Advice should be obtained from a CSI on the correct storage, packaging and submission of any items seized.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/major-investigation-and-public-protection/child-abuse/concern-for-a-child/#initial-response-if-drug-or-salt-induced-poisoning-is-suspected

And this

Emergent Clinical Care
Drug testing may identify possible toxins when a patient presents with altered mental status. In truly emergent situations, consent may be inferred, and testing should be considered in accident victims, after a suicide attempt, for unexplained seizures, for syncope or arrhythmias, or in the presence of toxidromal signs and symptoms that render the patient incapable of informed consent. In the case of a toxidrome, physical findings should guide the clinician to test for a specific panel of substances, even with minimal or no history available. A positive test result for a substance suspected on the basis of clinical findings is less likely to be a false-positive or spurious result because of the higher pretest probability in this setting. However, drug testing has significant limitations, even in the emergency setting. Standard laboratory tests detect drug metabolites with an unreliable frequency and often have reference ranges far lower than therapeutic dosages; thus, they may identify substances that are present but not causing the observed symptoms. Emergency management of an obtunded patient, such as the decision to give naloxone, is made on clinical grounds and not on the basis of results of a laboratory test. Nonetheless, the results of a drug test may be helpful in determining management once the patient is stabilized. 19


http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/133/6/e1798

I hope that these two will answer your question.

Salt induced poisoning is quite rare.  I don't know if you could really follow those detailed instructions, but as far as I could follow them, if the kids were appearing just asleep and breathing and not in any immediate danger they would just be left to sleep it off.
"such as the decision to give naloxone, is made on clinical grounds and not on the basis of results of a laboratory test. Nonetheless, the results of a drug test may be helpful in determining management once the patient is stabilized."
Treatment is made on clinical grounds.  If they are sleeping let them sleep seems logical to me. 

[slartibartfast]

Did you you read the statements?  The meeting between the McCanns and the FLO was on the 5th.  So IMO they were informed immediately.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm

"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.

I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."

Your last paragraph isn’t a question to the FLOs, “have the twins been drugged” though.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Salt induced poisoning is quite rare.  I don't know if you could really follow those detailed instructions, but as far as I could follow them, if the kids were appearing just asleep and breathing and not in any immediate danger they would just be left to sleep it off.
"such as the decision to give naloxone, is made on clinical grounds and not on the basis of results of a laboratory test. Nonetheless, the results of a drug test may be helpful in determining management once the patient is stabilized."
Treatment is made on clinical grounds.  If they are sleeping let them sleep seems logical to me.

What he said.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Your last paragraph isn’t a question to the FLOs, “have the twins been drugged” though.

Who knows the precise words used - this is fourth or fifth hand reporting.

[Sunny]

Who knows the precise words used - this is fourth or fifth hand reporting.

No it was a direct statement given to other police by the person who heard what the McCanns asked although to be fair it was translated into Portuguese.    But definitely not fourth or fifth hand reporting IMO

[Vertigo Swirl]

No it was a direct statement given to other police by the person who heard what the McCanns asked although to be fair it was translated into Portuguese.    But definitely not fourth or fifth hand reporting IMO

Kate speaks to the FLO, the FLO tells the police, the police write it down in Portuguese, it’s translated back into English.  4th hand reporting IMO.

[slartibartfast]

Kate speaks to the FLO, the FLO tells the police, the police write it down in Portuguese, it’s translated back into English.  4th hand reporting IMO.

It’s not a complicated sentence.

[Sunny]

Kate speaks to the FLO, the FLO tells the police, the police write it down in Portuguese, it’s translated back into English.  4th hand reporting IMO.

Should I chose to be pedantic I could say third hand reporting as we are talking about the FLO's statement and what he heard.

[Vertigo Swirl]

deleted

[Vertigo Swirl]

It’s not a complicated sentence.

So is it your opinion that the only words spoken by Kate and Gerry on the subject to the FLO were:
“We question whether there is any suggestion that drugs were used to facilitate Madeleine’s abduction”?