Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
Title: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
EVRD
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic material.
The E.R.V.D. has successfully in training and in operational casework located Human cadaders, whether in the whole or parts thereof, deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 1 metre shortly after death (though precise times are not determinable) to the advanced stages of decomposition and putrefaction through the skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved. The dog has successfully in training and in operational casework located a human cadavers in water either from the bank siade or when deployed in a boat.
The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. This may be achieved by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent samples being taken by remote means on sterile gauze pads. The gauze pads are then 'screened' in a line - up formation with the inclusion of a number of control samples and blank sterile pads.
The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to identify the venting or exhaust channels of the scent through fissures in bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce the size of the search area.
The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where controls may be included to increase assurity.
Vol IX p. 2481
FALSE ALERTS
'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 02:02:56 PM
Whilst it is stated that the E.V.RD. is originally trained using pig the following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:
P In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.
> The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'
P Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence / anecdotal witness accounts.
> The dog, a scavenger, uses its olfactory system to locate food sources, identify its young and other pack members, enemies and predators over large distances. It can track its prey identifying a direction of travel. This entails the dog being able to discriminate the time difference between footsteps using the sense of smell !
> The dog is an animal that's basic function in the wild is to scavenge food and procreate.
> In a domestic environment it responds to humans as a food source and bonds in the manner it would with other pack members.
> The reward of food and protection / close comfort provides the basis for a system to be adopted where the dog shows a willingness to respond in response to the reward. We are thereby able to 'train' the dog using conditioned responses to stimuli. Repetition and reward then ensure efficiency. Positive and negative reinforcement then shape the required behaviour in their role.
P Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response.
> Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour shaping and enforcement regime produces an asset that does not false alert unlike electronic devices.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 02:05:16 PM
In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in
petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 05:12:32 PM
Can all these statements be correct:
1/ The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches.
2/ 'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
3/ the E.V.RD. is originally trained using pig
4/ In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Cariad on December 05, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
considering how common pork is and how rare decaying bodies are, wouldn't a EVRD who alerted to a roast dinner become useless very, very quickly?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 05:22:41 PM
This thread is not about that, but about Mr Grime's statements. All cannot be true in my view.
Ok, so we're just playing semantics here....
Yes, I think that Mr Grime's should not have used the word 'pork' if referring to decaying pig flesh that had not been butchered for human consumption.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 05, 2013, 05:37:46 PM
Roger, I would ask the American police 8(>((
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lace on December 05, 2013, 05:49:52 PM
considering how common pork is and how rare decaying bodies are, wouldn't a EVRD who alerted to a roast dinner become useless very, very quickly?
The thing is Cariad the dog is trained to work when given the signal.
Eddie wouldn't probably alert walking past a grave yard unless Grime took him in there and give the order to find.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lace on December 05, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Also, as some have pointed out on the previous thread, Eddie might well have been trained using human bodies, but as they cannot tell human body decomposition from pork decomposition it is neither here nor there.
They use pigs hearts for transplant into humans.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 06:10:49 PM
Also, as some have pointed out on the previous thread, Eddie might well have been trained using human bodies, but as they cannot tell human body decomposition from pork decomposition it is neither here nor there.
They use pigs hearts for transplant into humans.
What exactly is "neither here nor there" ?
A definitive clear answer/statement please instead of dancing around the issue......
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lace on December 05, 2013, 06:11:54 PM
A definitive clear answer/statement please instead of dancing around the issue......
It means the fact that Eddie was trained using human bodies is immaterial.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 05, 2013, 06:13:15 PM
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube). 3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds "piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat" Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place. Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lace on December 05, 2013, 06:15:05 PM
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube). 3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds "piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat" Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place. Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.
What meat was it? Pork?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 06:15:38 PM
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube). 3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds "piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat" Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place. Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.
The meat was probably pork.
You beat me to it, Pegasus ....
ETA: Lace, sorry ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 06:20:12 PM
Immaterial to what? And why? Youre still not painting a full picture about what you mean
Immaterial to the fact that Eddie was trained using human bodies.
Sorry would like to continue this discussion but going out this evening.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: icabodcrane on December 05, 2013, 06:22:30 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in those circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourselves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 06:23:00 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in thiose circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourseleves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
Nope ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 06:25:44 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in thiose circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourseleves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
As I have said that possibility cannot be dismissed even if a dog didnt bark
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 06:29:09 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in those circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourselves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
Doesnt it just......a half decent alternative explanation might be worthy of thought and discussion......but some take the biscuit....reacting to a common food is not really an option
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Apostate on December 05, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
Maybe of all the people in the Ocean Club only the McCanns had had contact with Pork/Pig/Pig Blood - and it's pure coincidence that they happen to be the ones who have had a child vanish into thin air.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 06:39:16 PM
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube). 3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds "piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat" Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place. Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.
Have you got a reference for this? Pls...it rings a vague bell but I cant remember enough to do a search
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: icabodcrane on December 05, 2013, 06:42:31 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in those circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourselves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
I could understand dismissing 1 or 2 alerts from a cadaver dog as being potentially false or misinterpreted.
But when it is 3, 4 , 5 alerts to areas/objects associated with the child it is too much to ignore.
“One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 07:09:43 PM
A different incident but certainly worth a read Red ! Claimed abduction, window interfered with AND a cadaver dog scenting cadaver in the bedroom !
I know Pat ....Im still waiting for that list of people who have been found alive after cadaver dogs alerting to where the last place the missing person was seen.....so far I have been given one example, a particular fluke
Thing is what is annoying about some arguments put forward is not really the idea that the dog could have been wrong or that it might not indicate the death of this child...its the totally vehement opposition to the idea that it could be the case... that it most probably was or must have been something other than this, and hence we have had the dozen or so other possibilities offered, some so ridiculous and off the sensible scale its embarassing...... the dog was alerting to food, the dog was alerting to urine, bad breath, pigs buried under 5a, the dog was only alerting to please mr grime (courtesy of kate mccann that last one!!) etc etc
PS Wonderfulspam, ironically that is exactly what Kate Mccann wrote in her book, she too doesnt believe in coincidences....a man seen once or twice near the apartment but three times? !
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 05, 2013, 07:33:32 PM
I know Pat ....Im still waiting for that list of people who have been found alive after cadaver dogs alerting to where the last place the missing person was seen.....so far I have been given one example
Thing is what is annoying about some arguments put forward is not really the idea that the dog could have been wrong or that it might not indicate the death of this child...its the totally vehement opposition to the idea that it could be the case... that it most probably was or must have been something other than this, and hence we have had the dozen or so other possibilities offered, some so ridiculous and off the sensible scale its embarassing...... the dog was alerting to food, the dog was alerting to urine, bad breath, pigs buried under 5a, the dog was only alerting to please mr grime (courtesy of kate mccann that last one!!) etc etc
PS Wonderfulspam, ironically that is exactly what Kate Mccann wrote in her book, she too doesnt believe in coincidences....a man seen once or twice near the apartment but three times? !
PS Wonderfulspam, ironically that is exactly what Kate Mccann wrote in her book,
Yes, I used her quote. It's one that sticks in the mind & seems very relevant to the whole case.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 07:37:04 PM
I set up this thread specifically to discuss the contradiction in Mr Grime's statement. There are other dog threads for general discussion.
I think it's quite appropriate myself, the thread is about cadaver dogs, we were talking about them.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 05, 2013, 07:53:54 PM
Why is it that supporters of the family are all so keen to dismiss the dogs when in actual fact it is entirely possible an abductor killed the child.
They all seem to think that they need to demean grimes and his dogs on the basis it implicates the McCann's.
The child may well have died there but the mccanns insistence the dogs were unreliable instead of being heartbroken that their daughter could have died in there at the hands of an abductor is in my opinion as suspicious as the alerts themselves.
...irrelevant removed ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 07:59:59 PM
Why is it that supporters of the family are all so keen to dismiss the dogs when in actual fact it is entirely possible an abductor killed the child.
They all seem to think that they need to demean grimes and his dogs on the basis it implicates the McCann's.
The child may well have died there but the mccanns insistence the dogs were unreliable instead of being heartbroken that their daughter could have died in there at the hands of an abductor is in my opinion as suspicious as the alerts themselves.
... irrelevant removed ...
perhaps you have missed my posts...I totally support Grime and what he said about the dogs alerts
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Carana on December 05, 2013, 08:01:35 PM
We must acknowledge the possible link between the child disappearing and the cadaver dog barking in the place where she was last seen alive
I don't have a problem with that. Dogs alerted. Fact. Fine.
- Is there any certainty as to what they alerted to? I can't see any. There's a possibility to be explored. - What evidence did those alerts lead to? I can't see any either.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 08:05:51 PM
Had Madeleine been found alive, then the relentless questioning of the cadaver dog alert would make sense ... in those circumstances we might reasonably have asked ourselves "So what was he barking at then ? What could have happened to make a dog who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, bark in the McCanns' apartment ?"
As it is, the ongoing search for evermore obscure explanations smacks of desperation
Madeleine was not found alive, ( sadly ) ... nor has has she ever been seen since
Therefore, it remains the case that a possible ( or even likely ) explanation for a dog, who barks when he detects the scent of a dead body, barking in the very place where she was last seen alive , is that the disappeared child died there
That possibility cannot be dismissed
As I have said it is a possibility that maddie died in the appt...the dogs alert does not affect whether this is possible or not
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: John on December 05, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
I could understand dismissing 1 or 2 alerts from a cadaver dog as being potentially false or misinterpreted.
But when it is 3, 4 , 5 alerts to areas/objects associated with the child it is too much to ignore.
“One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.
That's a very good point WS. From everything we have been told about the way in which Eddie alerted surely the chances that four or even five alerts are pure coincidence are way beyond the bounds of possibility.
If Madeleine is eventually found alive and well it will be most interesting to see how the alerts are then explained.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 08:10:58 PM
Why is it that supporters of the family are all so keen to dismiss the dogs when in actual fact it is entirely possible an abductor killed the child.
They all seem to think that they need to demean grimes and his dogs on the basis it implicates the McCann's.
The child may well have died there but the mccanns insistence the dogs were unreliable instead of being heartbroken that their daughter could have died in there at the hands of an abductor is in my opinion as suspicious as the alerts themselves.
...irrelevant removed ...
I am quite happy to accept that the McCanns harmed Madeleine if proof is found.
What I am not happy with is unscientific and ridiculous interpretation of dog alerts which are contrary to the serious published research on their reliability.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 08:16:19 PM
I don't have a problem with that. Dogs alerted. Fact. Fine.
- Is there any certainty as to what they alerted to? I can't see any. There's a possibility to be explored. - What evidence did those alerts lead to? I can't see any either.
What evidence would you have liked?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 08:32:48 PM
So no real discussion about the contradictions in Grime's testimony then.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 05, 2013, 08:34:29 PM
I am quite happy to accept that the McCanns harmed Madeleine if proof is found.
What I am not happy with is unscientific and ridiculous interpretation of dog alerts which are contrary to the serious published research on their reliability.
So ...edited out... do you believe the dogs alerted to the scent of death irrespective of who caused it? Because to accept that premise does not automatically and exclusively implicate any guilt to the mccanns.
If the answer is "no" my follow on question is this:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 08:36:03 PM
Yes plenty, and the story about eddie alerting to a coconut was an outright pathetic lie @)(++(*
qualified anthropologist versus unqualified someone or other.. and the sample the qualified anthropologist found and examined was NOT the sample returned it was switched!
See video in video library on exclusivd eddie alerts in jersey and my response there with footage of the detective in charge at the time, shocking viewing re corruption
Poor Eddie, he will be accused of alerting to sherbert bon bons next found near a missing childs cot! maybe not anymore, hes dead now, but his successor....
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 08:37:27 PM
So ...... do you believe the dogs alerted to the scent of death irrespective of who caused it? Because to accept that premise does not automatically and exclusively implicate any guilt to the mccanns.
If the answer is "no" my follow on question is this:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
Reported for Goading. John has banned accusations of being other than the screen name.
I would take the dogs alert as an indication, but of no bomb was found, then I would board the plane.
Similarly the reactions of Eddie and Keela are indications, but as no forensicx evidence was found, we can safely and legally assume that the alerts are not substantive evidence. Mr Grime says this repeatedly!
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2013, 08:37:37 PM
So ....... do you believe the dogs alerted to the scent of death irrespective of who caused it? Because to accept that premise does not automatically and exclusively implicate any guilt to the mccanns.
If the answer is "no" my follow on question is this:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
Good question. 8@??)(
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 08:43:05 PM
Yes plenty, and the story about eddie alerting to a coconut was an outright pathetic lie @)(++(*
See video in video library on exclusivd eddie alerts in jersey and my response there with footage of the detective in charge at the time, shocking viewing re corruption
Poor Eddie, he will be accused of alerting to sherbert bon bons next found near a missing childs cot! maybe not anymore, hes dead now, but his successor....
There seems to be a major difference of opinion between well qualified people about whether or not it was bone. Best answer is that it has neither been confirmed nor disproven- could be either, but is not convincing evidence.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 05, 2013, 08:43:51 PM
So ....... do you believe the dogs alerted to the scent of death irrespective of who caused it? Because to accept that premise does not automatically and exclusively implicate any guilt to the mccanns.
If the answer is "no" my follow on question is this:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
Very poor post as you included the statement"you were advised not to get on"..that means there was confirmation from the handler ...
a fairer question would be....an explosives dog alerts on plane...despite an extensive search nothing is found...the dog handler confirms that the alert is meaningless without physical evidence being found... I would be more than happy to board the plane
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 05, 2013, 08:52:14 PM
see my better answer..of course there would be silly old folk who wouldn't understand and would be too frightened to get on the plane
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 05, 2013, 09:38:01 PM
Quote
One of the most spectacular exercises occurred when one of the Anthropologists brought a vial of sand back that she had removed from the tomb of a mummy in Egypt. We put this vial on a beach, below the sand, and let Eddie off to look for it. The dog amazingly sought it out in a few minutes
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html But in some ancient egyptians tombs the person is accompanied by mummified animals, for example to provide meals in the afterlife, or the company of a favourite pet. Maybe that is what was signalled?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 09:43:05 PM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html But in some ancient egyptians tombs the person is accompanied by mummified animals, for example to provide meals in the afterlife, or the company of a favourite pet. Maybe that is what was signalled?
@)(++(*
sure, its now dead pet from 5a, brilliant 8((()*/
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 05, 2013, 09:43:39 PM
Human remains (pelvic cavity) 1:20
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 09:51:55 PM
thats a brilliant video and it refers to 100 yr old remains not 5000 aka ancient egyptian aka took their pet cats to their tombs.....so that eddie reacted to them and not the humans remains Not that eddie reacts to dead cats anyway...or sausages....or nappies with pooh...or all the other ridiculous things postulated to demean the alerts
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: John on December 05, 2013, 10:05:31 PM
So was it 100-year-old pelvic remains that Eddie alerted to in Praia da Luz?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 05, 2013, 10:21:10 PM
An expert who has done serious research describes the different forensic chemical signatures of human and pig at 11:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Qd2nxMC2Y
P.S. includes audio output from a "LABRADOR" machine showing big difference between human and pig
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: John on December 05, 2013, 10:23:14 PM
The opening post asks the question "Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood?"
We are then told that Eddie was initially trained using dead piglets so we must assume from this that he did indeed react to animal cadaver.
Next we are told that Eddie never reacted to road kill.
My question is this. Due to his initial training, did Eddie have a preference for pig to the exclusion of all other animals?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 10:29:44 PM
The opening post asks the question "Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood?"
We are then told that Eddie was initially trained using dead piglets so we must assume from this that he did indeed react to animal cadaver.
Next we are told that Eddie never reacted to road kill.
My question is this. Due to his initial training, did Eddie have a preference for pig to the exclusion of all other animals?
Eddies been trained on dead pigs and dead humans....and nothng else.....he never reacted to any other dead animals..because his training is to cadaver scent of pigs and humans both of which are very similar......
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 10:30:01 PM
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic material.
The E.R.V.D. has successfully in training and in operational casework located Human cadaders, whether in the whole or parts thereof, deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 1 metre shortly after death (though precise times are not determinable) to the advanced stages of decomposition and putrefaction through the skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved. The dog has successfully in training and in operational casework located a human cadavers in water either from the bank siade or when deployed in a boat.
The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. This may be achieved by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent samples being taken by remote means on sterile gauze pads. The gauze pads are then 'screened' in a line - up formation with the inclusion of a number of control samples and blank sterile pads.
The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to identify the venting or exhaust channels of the scent through fissures in bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce the size of the search area.
The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where controls may be included to increase assurity.
Vol IX p. 2481
FALSE ALERTS
'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
Eddie cannot have been 'sold' in PDL as reacting to blood, or else there would have been no need to ask Grime, in his rogatory interview, to confirm that he did.
Actually, I've looked at that again. Grime does state in his rogatory that Eddie reacts to blood, but that appeared to be a statement in answer to a question predicated on the assumption that he did.
So that's probably wrong.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 05, 2013, 10:43:00 PM
'Can the dog mix up traces of human odours with others that are non-human''
I cannot comment on what the dogs think. However, from a forensic point of view and from confirmations of scientific testimonies, the dogs appear to be extremely exact. But, forensic confirmation is required in all cases so as to be included as proof. The CSI dog is trained using only human blood. And using a wide spectrum of donors to ensure that the dog does not individualize them. EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 05, 2013, 10:43:26 PM
The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I.
Youre having a laugh.....a training manual? Since when has a training manual been any reflection on reality? personell can adhere to 100% of a training manual but go beyond...
... moderated ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 11:01:40 PM
Youre having a laugh.....a training manual? Since when has a training manual been any reflection on reality?
... moderated ...
In England and the UK use of human body-parts for any reason (including medical) is outlawed as illegal and there is all hell to pay when evidence is uncovered that such a thing has happened.
Alder Hey is a classic example.
Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried-and-trusted alternative method of training cadaver dogs in England using pigs and pig cadaver scents, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?
And if we are to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) then aged about 5, and just 18 months from retirement?
The truth is known.
In the New Year 2006, Grime made a trip to the States (without dogs) to discuss Keela, then, actually an unusual dog of her kind, in whom the Americans had expressed an interest.
The poster poacher claims to have been an associate of Grime and to have seen the report of that trip.
He says the Americans were unimpressed.
Whatever the truth of that, Grime ceased to be an employee of SYP in August 2007.
According to poacher, the (unsuccessful) trip to America was a large part of the reason ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 05, 2013, 11:07:54 PM
Serious research
Quote
In a paper appearing in Forensic Science International, Dr. Cablk, Erin Szelagowski, and John Sagabiel analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and compared the chemicals found with what could be expected from human decomposition. The animal remains were from cows, pigs, and chickens. The researchers found that the “VOC signatures” of the animal remains differed from each other, but also from humans.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 11:15:00 PM
Getting back to the OP, when a dog has been trained to react in a certain way, and rewarded for doing so, that reaction cannot be "unlearned".
Eddie would certainly react to pork-based products.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 05, 2013, 11:20:34 PM
Quote
Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 05, 2013, 11:33:07 PM
In England and the UK use of human body-parts for any reason (including medical) is outlawed as illegal and there is all hell to pay when evidence is uncovered that such a thing has happened.
Alder Hey is a classic example.
Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried-and-trusted alternative method of training cadaver dogs in England using pigs and pig cadaver scents, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?
And if we are to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) then aged about 5, and just 18 months from retirement?
The truth is known.
In the New Year 2006, Grime made a trip to the States (without dogs) to discuss Keela, then, actually an unusual dog of her kind, in whom the Americans had expressed an interest.
The poster poacher claims to have been an associate of Grime and to have seen the report of that trip.
He says the Americans were unimpressed.
Whatever the truth of that, Grime ceased to be an employee of SYP in August 2007.
According to poacher, the (unsuccessful) trip to America was a large part of the reason ...
Human body parts can be and regularly are retained for various purposes associated with medicine. The only problem is when relatives' consent has not been given.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 05, 2013, 11:44:02 PM
So ...edited out... do you believe the dogs alerted to the scent of death irrespective of who caused it? Because to accept that premise does not automatically and exclusively implicate any guilt to the mccanns.
If the answer is "no" my follow on question is this:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
I truly don't see the connection - as if a dog alerted to a bomb on a plane then either a bomb will or will not be found. It's a cut and dried scenario.
If a cadaver dog alerts - then that does not necessarily mean it is an alert to a dead body, or that a dead body has ever been in that place according to the various reasons given by Martin Grime. So this is by no means a cut and dried scenario.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2013, 11:53:29 PM
Albertini:
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"? [/quote]
http://dog[ censored word ]sunite.com/2013/02/04/tsa-bomb-sniffing-dogs-often-fail-to-detect-explosives-at-u-s-airports-and-cost-taxpayers-millions/
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 05, 2013, 11:56:34 PM
... quote removed ...
8)-))) That's my point, Red. Even Jose didn't use the pseudoscientific arguments these guys do, because he - and every other attorney - knows the dogs are trained and handled by professionals.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Benice on December 05, 2013, 11:58:07 PM
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube). 3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds "piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat" Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place. Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.
Which proves that the dogs can detect cadaverscent from way beneath the ground.
Eddie could do that too - and so may have been alerting to an underground scent at 5A and outside. Without corroborating evidence to prove otherwise - that cannot be ruled out as a possibility.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:00:23 AM
Which proves that the dogs can detect cadaverscent from way beneath the ground.
Eddie could do that too - and so may have been alerting to an underground scent at 5A and outside. Without corroborating evidence to prove otherwise - that cannot be ruled out as a possibility.
Dead pigs under 5a
Yes!!
Dig it up
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:01:48 AM
8)-))) That's my point, Red. Even Jose didn't use the pseudoscientific arguments these guys do, because he - and every other attorney - knows the dogs are trained and handled by professionals.
But weasel jose weasled all around it
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Benice on December 06, 2013, 12:15:39 AM
Doesn't have to be dead pigs. Cadaverscent emanates from body 'bits' & bodily fluid from living people as well as from dead bodies. Eddie could detect the minutest traces from underground. All according to Martin Grime not me.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:17:05 AM
Doesn't have to be dead pigs. Cadaverscent emanates from body 'bits' & bodily fluid from living people as well as from dead bodies. Eddie could detect the minutest traces from underground. All according to Martin Grime not me.
Yes dear..nite dearYou have a habit of putting words into mr grimes mouth like he said if both dogs alert it means its blood..... Not funny and notintelligent just as you did earlier today search your own posts and read back......on your own rubbish tara now
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: John on December 06, 2013, 12:28:05 AM
Isn't it interesting that Martin chose to use piglets when it has been shown that swine volatile organic compound (VOC) is furthest away from that of humans and that of the chicken is closer?
Is there a KFC in PdL?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 12:31:32 AM
Doesn't have to be dead pigs. Cadaverscent emanates from body 'bits' & bodily fluid from living people as well as from dead bodies. Eddie could detect the minutest traces from underground. All according to Martin Grime not me.
There's a reward available for whichever one of you guys is the next to mention toenails 8)-)))
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:34:08 AM
If you were about to board a plane and were advised not to get on as a trained dog had alerted to a bomb being on board would you still be happy to get on that plane and dismiss the request as information based on " ridiculous and unscientific interpretations"?
http://dog[ censored word ]sunite.com/2013/02/04/tsa-bomb-sniffing-dogs-often-fail-to-detect-explosives-at-u-s-airports-and-cost-taxpayers-millions/
No I wouldn't get on the plane as I think sniffer dogs are wonderful.
It's not the dogs I have a problem with - it's the interpretations of people who refuse to believe what Martin Grime has clearly stated about cadaver dogs and how their alerts should be regarded that I have an issue with.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:41:48 AM
Doesn't have to be dead pigs. Cadaverscent emanates from body 'bits' & bodily fluid from living people as well as from dead bodies. Eddie could detect the minutest traces from underground. All according to Martin Grime not me.
All according to mr grime
You owe me a reply regarding according to mr grime lol My post
There seems to be a major difference of opinion between well qualified people about whether or not it was bone. Best answer is that it has neither been confirmed nor disproven- could be either, but is not convincing evidence.
IIRC correctly the only person who first thought it may have been bone - later changed her mind because of the speed of deterioration which she noticed was taking place - which could not have happened if it was bone.
(From memory - so I could be wrong. If I get time I will try to find the article)
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:54:58 AM
IIRC correctly the only person who first thought it may have been bone - later changed her mind because of the speed of deterioration which she noticed was taking place - which could not have happened if it was bone.
(From memory - so I could be wrong. If I get time I will try to find the article)
Totally wrong...the anthropologist found the piece and said it was a fragment of a childs skull......nothing at all to do with speed of deterioration.......the fragment was sent away and when it came back was different in size weight appearance and texture, was not the same piece....duh?
do watch from 6 05
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Benice on December 06, 2013, 01:02:46 AM
Yes dear..nite dearYou have a habit of putting words into mr grimes mouth like he said if both dogs alert it means its blood..... Not funny and notintelligent just as you did earlier today search your own posts and read back......on your own rubbish tara now
Grime always sent Eddie in first. If Eddie didn't alert, he didn't bother to send Keela in because he knew that if blood had been insitu then Eddie would have detected it.
If Eddie does alert then he sends Keela in. If she alerts at the same place - he presumes a blood detection because Keela only alerts to blood. If she doesn't alert at the same place - he then assumes cadaverscent - because Keela does not alert to cadaverscent.
Both dogs alerted to the key fob in the car. Forensics found that the DNA matched Gerry - who is not a cadaver.
If you don't want to believe that - and prefer instead to reply with nasty sarcastic comments - that's not my problem.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 01:12:25 AM
Grime always sent Eddie in first. If Eddie didn't alert, he didn't bother to send Keela in because he knew that if blood had been insitu then Eddie would have detected it.
If Eddie does alert then he sends Keela in. If she alerts at the same place - he presumes a blood detection because Keela only alerts to blood. If she doesn't alert at the same place - he then assumes cadaverscent - because Keela does not alert to cadaverscent.
Both dogs alerted to the key fob in the car. Forensics found that the DNA matched Gerry - who is not a cadaver.
If you don't want to believe that - and prefer instead to reply with nasty sarcastic comments - that's not my problem.
The logic you're claiming on behalf of Mr Grime is false, and the term 'alert at the same place' is also meaningless when you're dealing with microscopic spots: if two spots of different material are next to each other the cadaver dog could have detected both.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Benice on December 06, 2013, 01:40:24 AM
The logic you're claiming on behalf of Mr Grime is false, and the term 'alert at the same place' is also meaningless when you're dealing with microscopic spots: if two spots of different material are next to each other the cadaver dog could have detected both.
So why do you think M. Grime sent Eddie in first - and if he didn't alert - why did he not think it necessary to send Keela in afterwards?
IMO the problem with this whole subject is that it is not the exact science some people think it is and some people don't appear to understand that both dogs alerted to blood - and both dogs also alerted to blood from living people
If both dogs alert at the same spot - and there is no physical residue that can be collected then there is no way of proving what Eddie alerted to. M.Grime's only way of narrowing it down was if Eddie alerted in a place where Keela did not. If that happened he could rule out blood - but without corroborating evidence he still could not identify the precise reason why Eddie had alerted because there were different scenarios which would produce an alert - some of which did not involve the actual presence of a cadaver at that spot.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 02:27:34 AM
So why do you think M. Grime sent Eddie in first - and if he didn't alert - why did he not think it necessary to send Keela in afterwards?
IMO the problem with this whole subject is that it is not the exact science some people think it is and some people don't appear to understand that both dogs alerted to blood - and both dogs also alerted to blood from living people
If both dogs alert at the same spot - and there is no physical residue that can be collected then there is no way of proving what Eddie alerted to. M.Grime's only way of narrowing it down was if Eddie alerted in a place where Keela did not. If that happened he could rule out blood - but without corroborating evidence he still could not identify the precise reason why Eddie had alerted because there were different scenarios which would produce an alert - some of which did not involve the actual presence of a cadaver at that spot.
I don't think it's the norm for two different types of dog to be used to 'narrow it down' - Mr Grime using both types shows just how professional he is imo. In the Anthony case in Florida only one type was used, there was no dna corroboration of the alerts but evidence of them was still heard in the courtroom.
That wouldn't currently happen in a Portuguese or English courtroom of course - I don't know why you don't just leave it at that. Just say "that evidence is not used in Portuguese trials" and "the evidence is controversial". Both of those statements are true.
But the pseudoscience being used here and elsewhere to discredit the dogs, science and Mr Grime isn't true.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 06, 2013, 05:51:11 AM
Also, as some have pointed out on the previous thread, Eddie might well have been trained using human bodies, but as they cannot tell human body decomposition from pork decomposition it is neither here nor there.
They use pigs hearts for transplant into humans.
Oh for goodness sake. A dog only trained on human cadaver knows the difference between that and a psuedo scent.
Get real. What is the point of all this anyway.
Which ever way the dog is trained it is done solely to find a traces of human dead bodies, and it does very successfully I believe 100 percent.
This thread is put here purely for the pros to make a stupid point about using pork. SO WHAT.
IF THEY DO USE a pseudo scent to train their dogs, it isnt a lump of pork from the butchers. They use specialised cells from a pig, which has gone through a special process, most of which the DNA has been extracted.
They use similar cells to make human skin now especially for burn victims. The cells are from a pig but there is no DNA of the pig. (Do google it), they also use it now to make implants for breast cancer patients but it doesnt mean the patient will suddenly develop a strong desire to wallow in the mud lol.
Its a psuedo scent not a lump of pork. 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 06, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
Yes dear..nite dearYou have a habit of putting words into mr grimes mouth like he said if both dogs alert it means its blood..... Not funny and notintelligent just as you did earlier today search your own posts and read back......on your own rubbish tara now
I am amazed that you still don't understand how the dogs work and why both are needed to suggest cadaver odour rather than blood. Eddie was a blood dog and trained as such. He will always alert to blood. Additionally he will alert to human (and porcine) decay. If Eddie alerts it is suggestive of blood or cadaver, if Keela fails to alert in the same place it is suggestive of cadaver. Simples.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 06:48:44 AM
There's a reward available for whichever one of you guys is the next to mention toenails 8)-)))
Toenails, teeth and hair do not decay like flesh so are not detectable by a cadaver dog. However if there is attached flesh to pulled teeth, pulled nails or pulled hair, then it will give off cadaver odor.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 06:54:48 AM
The logic you're claiming on behalf of Mr Grime is false, and the term 'alert at the same place' is also meaningless when you're dealing with microscopic spots: if two spots of different material are next to each other the cadaver dog could have detected both.
It is no wonder that you make such errors when you do not understand what is going on.
Eddie reacts to dried blood- do you accept that? The dried blood can come from someone who is currently alive or currently dead.
If Eddie alerts, he could be alerting to blood. Do you accept that?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 06:59:40 AM
I don't think it's the norm for two different types of dog to be used to 'narrow it down' - Mr Grime using both types shows just how professional he is imo. In the Anthony case in Florida only one type was used, there was no dna corroboration of the alerts but evidence of them was still heard in the courtroom.
That wouldn't currently happen in a Portuguese or English courtroom of course - I don't know why you don't just leave it at that. Just say "that evidence is not used in Portuguese trials" and "the evidence is controversial". Both of those statements are true.
But the pseudoscience being used here and elsewhere to discredit the dogs, science and Mr Grime isn't true.
Mr Grime states clearly that Eddie alerts to dried blood:
"The dog EVRD (Eddie the Cadaver dog) is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 07:01:19 AM
IF THEY DO USE a pseudo scent to train their dogs, it isnt a lump of pork from the butchers. They use specialised cells from a pig, which has gone through a special process, most of which the DNA has been extracted.
I have not heard of this. Would you kindly produce a cite for this information.? Or is it just something that you think i the case?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 07:02:48 AM
Grime always sent Eddie in first. If Eddie didn't alert, he didn't bother to send Keela in because he knew that if blood had been insitu then Eddie would have detected it.
If Eddie does alert then he sends Keela in. If she alerts at the same place - he presumes a blood detection because Keela only alerts to blood. If she doesn't alert at the same place - he then assumes cadaverscent - because Keela does not alert to cadaverscent.
Both dogs alerted to the key fob in the car. Forensics found that the DNA matched Gerry - who is not a cadaver.
If you don't want to believe that - and prefer instead to reply with nasty sarcastic comments - that's not my problem.
You have got it wrong yet again. Eddie (the cadaver dog) is sent in to find the remnant scent of a body, not blood. Keela is only sent in after he alerts to find back up forensic evidence, ie blood, so dna can be matched, she is not sent in to confirm that Eddie has alerted to blood! That would fly in the face of the possibility of someone who bled and then died
Again, where is your back up for the emboldened statement of yours about what Grime presumes? You said previously this is according to Grime. Awaiting quote. Thanks. On second thoughts dont bother, if it existed you would have produced it by now after being asked twice. All it is is your personal mistaken take.
And, proof that Mr Grime presumes no such thing if both dogs alert in the same place is his words in his report about the car search.....in his opinion:
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent.
Also take note that in the 5a flat search where both dogs alerted he did not say there was a possibility Eddie was alerting to blood, he said in his opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent....
Have to go out now
Edited
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2013, 10:21:40 AM
There are three locations of the apartment indicated (lounge, flowerbed, a bedroom). Given the suggestions raised in this thread and elsewhere, that any given single indication may possibly have explanation outside the case, what if two of those locations are irrelevant, and only one is relevant? For example what if the lounge is irrelevant (maybe tiler injury during construction of building) and the flowerbed is irrelevant (maybe gardener cuts hand on climbing plant)?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Benice on December 06, 2013, 10:38:18 AM
You have got it wrong yet again. Eddie (the cadaver dog) is sent in to find the remnant scent of a body, not blood. Keela is only sent in after he alerts to find back up forensic evidence, ie blood, so dna can be matched, she is not sent in to confirm that Eddie has alerted to blood! That would fly in the face of the possibility of someone who bled and then died
Again, where is your back up for the emboldened statement of yours? You said previously this is according to Grime. Awaiting quote. Thanks.
And, proof that Mr Grime presumes no such thing if both dogs alert in th same place is his words in his report about the car search.....in his opinion:
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent.
Eddie has been trained to find two different scents - one is from dried blood and the other is cadaverscent - and that is the limit of his 'knowledge' - and if he comes across either of those scents he will alert. Whether he is alerting to a dead body or dried blood from a dead person (or a living person) is not something he can convey to his handler. If he could - then MG would have trained him to bark once for blood and twice for cadaverscent - which he plainly has not.
If you listen to MG in the videos - he carefully avoids mentioning cadaverscent when Eddie alerts - and instead says that'' Eddie has alerted to the things he has been trained to alert to ''. (not verbatim). If he was sure it was cadaverscent - he would have said so. At no stage does MG ever claim that his dog has alerted to cadaverscent - only to the 'possiblity''.
If you don't accept the abilities/training of the dogs as explained by M.G - then I don't see the point in further discussion.
Eddie alerts to both blood and cadaverscent. There is no way he can let his handler know which one he is alerting to.
Keela only alerts to blood - therefore she can convey to her handler what it is she is alerting to.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 10:56:05 AM
You have got it wrong yet again. Eddie (the cadaver dog) is sent in to find the remnant scent of a body, not blood. Keela is only sent in after he alerts to find back up forensic evidence, ie blood, so dna can be matched, she is not sent in to confirm that Eddie has alerted to blood! That would fly in the face of the possibility of someone who bled and then died
Again, where is your back up for the emboldened statement of yours about what Grime presumes? You said previously this is according to Grime. Awaiting quote. Thanks. On second thoughts dont bother, if it existed you would have produced it by now after being asked twice. All it is is your personal mistaken take.
And, proof that Mr Grime presumes no such thing if both dogs alert in the same place is his words in his report about the car search.....in his opinion:
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent.
Also take note that in the 5a flat search where both dogs alerted he did not say there was a possibility Eddie was alerting to blood, he said in his opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent....
Have to go out now
Edited
If I said that my shopping bag contained apples or oranges, could you be sure that there were apples in there- no!
Eddie's alerts are only suggestive of cadaver scent when blood is excluded by Keela.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 11:06:38 AM
According to Grime, Eddie did not react to pseudo-scents.
It is true that dogs trained on human bodies don't.
However, this reference from the Sam Parker case has always intrigued me:
We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.
Sample pair of pants perfumed with a cadaver scent
Would that be a pseudo-scent?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 11:39:26 AM
Toenails, teeth and hair do not decay like flesh so are not detectable by a cadaver dog. However if there is attached flesh to pulled teeth, pulled nails or pulled hair, then it will give off cadaver odor.
Plenty of those you ally yourself with do indeed periodically claim dogs will alert to toenails, and all kinds of other material too.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 11:47:15 AM
Plenty of those you ally yourself with do indeed periodically claim dogs will alert to toenails, and all kinds of other material too.
I don't ally myself to anyone. I criticise Pros as well as [ censored word]. You may choose to see me as allied to others, but I am very much an outsider- banned from pro and anti fora alike. Because I speak the truth, not promote false belief.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 11:53:52 AM
I did in the post you were replying to - how can it be said dogs are alerting 'in the same place' when there could be two or more microscopic spots of material next to each other?
One dog alerts to one invisible to us spot and the other dog to another, but they're not alerting to the same material.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 11:59:36 AM
I don't ally myself to anyone. I criticise Pros as well as [ censored word]. You may choose to see me as allied to others, but I am very much an outsider- banned from pro and anti fora alike. Because I speak the truth, not promote false belief.
You devote a huge amount of time to the dogs. Did you devote any time to, for instance, Sadie's theories?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2013, 12:01:12 PM
Re the demonstration in LaFayette Police Department I can't find whether it was using imported trousers contacted by a real source, or by trousers with synthetic scent applied. Wish we could see the video.
In that Sam Parker case Eddie indicated in the garage and that's his indication that was relevant to that case. It is interesting that in the same search Eddie also indicated at a nearby house. This house had long ago been burnt out and never repaired. It turned out that when the house burnt, there had been a fatality, so this is yet another testimony of Eddie's remarkable ability.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
I did in the post you were replying to - how can it be said dogs are alerting 'in the same place' when there could be two or more microscopic spots of material next to each other?
One dog alerts to one invisible to us spot and the other dog to another, but they're not alerting to the same material.
that is a problem with all measurement- dog or instrument- defining the locus.
All we know is that if Eddie alerts it could be blood or cadaver- if Keela also alerts it suggests blood rather than cadaver because of the greater likelihood of blood. If Keela does react it increases the value of the intelligence that it may be cadaver scent. No alerts can ever confirm either cadaver or blood.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 12:16:36 PM
that is a problem with all measurement- dog or instrument- defining the locus.
All we know is that if Eddie alerts it could be blood or cadaver- if Keela also alerts it suggests blood rather than cadaver because of the greater likelihood of blood. If Keela does react it increases the value of the intelligence that it may be cadaver scent. No alerts can ever confirm either cadaver or blood.
Fair enough, but you won't leave it at that. You'll still do everything you can to claim dogs aren't trained, and used, by professionals - and you won't recognise that some US states have determined this is a science worthy of being heard as evidence - like any other forensic science - in the courtroom.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2013, 12:42:07 PM
Eddie checked 5A, 5B, 5D, 5H, 4G, 27, including the kitchens. There would have been uncooked porcine remains in some of these fridges, and historically in all of them. No signalling at any of those fridges
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
Eddie has been trained to find two different scents - one is from dried blood and the other is cadaverscent - and that is the limit of his 'knowledge' - and if he comes across either of those scents he will alert. Whether he is alerting to a dead body or dried blood from a dead person (or a living person) is not something he can convey to his handler. If he could - then MG would have trained him to bark once for blood and twice for cadaverscent - which he plainly has not.
If you listen to MG in the videos - he carefully avoids mentioning cadaverscent when Eddie alerts - and instead says that'' Eddie has alerted to the things he has been trained to alert to ''. (not verbatim). If he was sure it was cadaverscent - he would have said so. At no stage does MG ever claim that his dog has alerted to cadaverscent - only to the 'possiblity''.
If you don't accept the abilities/training of the dogs as explained by M.G - then I don't see the point in further discussion.
Eddie alerts to both blood and cadaverscent. There is no way he can let his handler know which one he is alerting to.
Keela only alerts to blood - therefore she can convey to her handler what it is she is alerting to.
All very well and good, mostly, but you skipped around my post so badly,(and also which you seem to have copied ages before replyng so you didnt read/quote my edited version) and didnt address half the points, youre right,theres no point continung the discussion with each other! So, so long on this one......i will just sit with the choice of you dont understand or you pretend not to
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 12:44:46 PM
Eddie checked 5A, 5B, 5D, 5H, 4G, 27, including the kitchens. There would have been porcine remains in some of these fridges, and historically in all of them. No signalling at any of those fridges
And Murats villa.....
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 12:52:23 PM
What a joke. The first place Eddie barked and alerted to in 5A was at the wardrobe - no blood was found there by Keela. Eddie alerted to cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2013, 12:59:09 PM
IMO the OP question can be answered in 2 words: seven fridges
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 01:13:36 PM
Reported for Goading. John has banned accusations of being other than the screen name.
I would take the dogs alert as an indication, but of no bomb was found, then I would board the plane.
Similarly the reactions of Eddie and Keela are indications, but as no forensicx evidence was found, we can safely and legally assume that the alerts are not substantive evidence. Mr Grime says this repeatedly!
Oh dear! I did not realise what a precious and delicate flower you had become. I'm struggling to see how using one of your nom de plume's constitutes "goading" and i must have missed John's memo regarding "names". Apologies if i have offended your apparently fragile sensibilities.
Anyway back to the matter in hand.
So you would be happy to go on, or indeed send your loved ones, on a flight where a dog had alerted but no bomb had been found?
Really? Even though bombs are no longer the black metal spheres of old complete with hissing wick and can be concealed these days in shoes, underwear and even (I've read) human bodies?
Well you are a braver man than me, but of course it is very easy to sit here and say you would be happy to board a plane given an alert to prove a point on an internet forum, it is however quite another matter to say you'd get on if you or yours were actually in that position.
I have never claimed that the alerts represent "firm" evidence have i? You will note i have pointed out that what is strange is that the McCann supporters dismiss the findings of the dogs simply because they believe it indicates guilt against the McCann's when it absolutely does not on its own.
The issue with the supporters of the family is that they are not prepared to accept the dogs findings in the apartment even on the basis that an intruder could have killed the child and removed the body, which is a totally possible scenario.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
What a joke. The first place Eddie barked and alerted to in 5A was at the wardrobe - no blood was found there by Keela. Eddie alerted to cadaver odour.
It is possible that Eddie's alert was to cadaver odor within the limits of his reliability. As no confirming forensics were found, Mr Grime says that no conclusions can be drawn from the alert.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:15:45 PM
Oh dear! I did not realise what a precious and delicate flower you had become. I'm struggling to see how using one of your nom de plume's constitutes "goading" and i must have missed John's memo regarding "names". Apologies if i have offended your apparently fragile sensibilities.
Anyway back to the matter in hand.
So you would be happy to go on, or indeed send your loved ones, on a flight where a dog had alerted but no bomb had been found?
Really? Even though bombs are no longer the black metal spheres of old complete with hissing wick and can be concealed these days in shoes, underwear and even (I've read) human bodies?
Well you are a braver man than me, but of course it is very easy to sit here and say you would be happy to board a plane given an alert to prove a point on an internet forum, it is however quite another matter to say you'd get on if you or yours were actually in that position.
I have never claimed that the alerts represent "firm" evidence have i? You will note i have pointed out that what is strange is that the McCann supporters dismiss the findings of the dogs simply because they believe it indicates guilt against the McCann's when it absolutely does not on its own.
The issue with the supporters of the family is that they are not prepared to accept the dogs findings in the apartment even on the basis that an intruder could have killed the child and removed the body, which is a totally possible scenario.
Bomb scares happen. People get back on planes when the aircraft has been cleared. I would also. End of....
I only try to keep people close to the science of EVRDs and away from the Romance of them.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:20:48 PM
A further problem for Mr Grime's consistency:
I found this quote from the Orkney Case:
"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie's nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Martin-Grime/1451898808
If cadaver odor is so transferable, why did not all the clothes in the boxes lead to alerts from Eddie?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 01:23:14 PM
It is possible that Eddie's alert was to cadaver odor within the limits of his reliability. As no confirming forensics were found, Mr Grime says that no conclusions can be drawn from the alert.
I disagree. Eddie has found the only evidence i.e. cadaver odour in cases and have put the criminals away for thinking they could get away with it. They confessed but if it wasn't for Eddie they would still be free.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 01:25:27 PM
"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie's nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Martin-Grime/1451898808
If cadaver odor is so transferable, why did not all the clothes in the boxes lead to alerts from Eddie?
Context, Roger 8(0(*
You'd need to read the whole of his evidence in that court to draw any conclusions.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:25:38 PM
I disagree. Eddie has found the only evidence in many cases and have put the criminals away for thinking they could get away with it.
Eddie's evidence can only ever me circumstantial, and so may have contributed to a case which convicted a person, but could never of itself gain that conviction.
There is no case in which he has found the only evidence- I think you are making that up out of emotion rather than reason, although of course I am happy to accept it so long as you provide a cite for it.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 01:26:15 PM
Bomb scares happen. People get back on planes when the aircraft has been cleared. I would also. End of....
I only try to keep people close to the science of EVRDs and away from the Romance of them.
Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.
And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.
My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.
Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.
Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.
Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:26:56 PM
You'd need to read the whole of his evidence in that court to draw any conclusions.
There is no need for context.
Grime states quite clearly that one touch of a cadaver and a subsequent touch of a piece of paper would transfer the scent. What context could there be that would alter that statement.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 06, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Oh dear! I did not realise what a precious and delicate flower you had become. I'm struggling to see how using one of your nom de plume's constitutes "goading" and i must have missed John's memo regarding "names". Apologies if i have offended your apparently fragile sensibilities.
Anyway back to the matter in hand.
So you would be happy to go on, or indeed send your loved ones, on a flight where a dog had alerted but no bomb had been found?
Really? Even though bombs are no longer the black metal spheres of old complete with hissing wick and can be concealed these days in shoes, underwear and even (I've read) human bodies?
Well you are a braver man than me, but of course it is very easy to sit here and say you would be happy to board a plane given an alert to prove a point on an internet forum, it is however quite another matter to say you'd get on if you or yours were actually in that position.
I have never claimed that the alerts represent "firm" evidence have i? You will note i have pointed out that what is strange is that the McCann supporters dismiss the findings of the dogs simply because they believe it indicates guilt against the McCann's when it absolutely does not on its own.
The issue with the supporters of the family is that they are not prepared to accept the dogs findings in the apartment even on the basis that an intruder could have killed the child and removed the body, which is a totally possible scenario.
Exactly. Funny enough before the dogs I never thought the McCanns did anything to Maddy no way.
It was actually the reaction to the dogs findings that finally made me realise there was or is something off about them.
I would not have dismissed the findings, why did they make a mockery out of it?
I would have begged the police to check and check to see what could have happened.
Did they simply react this way though because to do otherwise would mean the child was probably deceased? Or for another reason.
No their reaction for me was way off.....
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
Grime states quite clearly that one touch of a cadaver and a subsequent touch of a piece of paper would transfer the scent. What context could there be that would alter that statement.
State of decomposition?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:31:48 PM
Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.
And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.
My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.
Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.
Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.
Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.
If dogs alerted to explosives in a particular place and that place was carefully searched, there would be no problem with boarding the plane. Dogs alert in error- explosive dogs alert to caps for cap guns!
As to the alerts, they are only circumstantial evidence. The police over valued them initially and were unable to gather any direct evidence to charge the McCanns. The McCanns returned to England and were not sent rogatory requests which could have happened and the PJ chose not to do that. They had no requirement as arguidos to answer questions anyway, so there was nothing the PJ could have gained by having them local; they could have been recalled to Portugal, but they were not. The return to England is over valued by the [ censored word].
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Redblossom on December 06, 2013, 01:32:37 PM
Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.
And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.
My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.
Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.
Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.
Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.
8@??)(
The best lawyers but the crappiest detectives.....Now why does that just not make any sense
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Eddie's evidence can only ever me circumstantial, and so may have contributed to a case which convicted a person, but could never of itself gain that conviction.
There is no case in which he has found the only evidence- I think you are making that up out of emotion rather than reason, although of course I am happy to accept it so long as you provide a cite for it.
Check out Adrian/Kate Prout and Attracta Harron cases.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Lyall on December 06, 2013, 01:42:55 PM
Do you think American police can't use google, ferryman?
Do you think they haven't seen the PdL videos?
Do you think they don't know everything about the McCann case? And Jersey too.
They recognise Mr Grime as a professional. Why don't you?
The forensic canine program?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2013, 01:51:33 PM
Ok you ignore the incorrect signal by the airport dog and get on the totally safe plane and its in-flight meal time and an EVRD who happens to be sitting next to you barks at the pork curry, but not at the veggie burger, does this affect your culinary choice?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 01:52:35 PM
If dogs alerted to explosives in a particular place and that place was carefully searched, there would be no problem with boarding the plane. Dogs alert in error- explosive dogs alert to caps for cap guns!
As to the alerts, they are only circumstantial evidence. The police over valued them initially and were unable to gather any direct evidence to charge the McCanns. The McCanns returned to England and were not sent rogatory requests which could have happened and the PJ chose not to do that. They had no requirement as arguidos to answer questions anyway, so there was nothing the PJ could have gained by having them local; they could have been recalled to Portugal, but they were not. The return to England is over valued by the [ censored word].
You are probably right they did over value them to begin with, however there was a clear pattern of alerts, wasn't there?
The McCann's were clearly in a state of panic about being held and spoke of fleeing the country to Spain if i recall. Why on earth would they think they need to do that in a European country?
The return to England was not overvalued when they hired Pinochet's extradition lawyers Angus McBride & Michael Caplan.
Why on earth would innocent parents of a missing child feel the need to do that, and what inference can be drawn from parents openly thinking of fleeing the country and hiring such a crack and expensive team?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:54:05 PM
Check out Adrian/Kate Prout and Attracta Harron cases.
Well, in the Kate Prout Case the Mirror sums up the evidence as: Mr Pixton explained how the prosecution service built its case from Mrs Prout's disappearance on November 5 2007 to Prout's trial, which started on January 12 this year. He said: "We had a case where no body was ever found and therefore no creating of a forensic link between Adrian Prout and his wife's disappearance. "What we did have was evidence to show that this crime was premeditated, Adrian Prout had a means of concealing her body and also a reason to do so. "The South West Complex Case Work Unit took on this case at an early stage when it became apparent it would be a complex and lengthy investigation. The unit deals with serious and organised crime throughout the south west. "We worked closely with the Gloucestershire Constabulary, and a number of expert witnesses, to make sure we would be able to present every available piece of evidence to this jury at court. "The code of the crown prosecutors dictates we must have sufficient evidence for a good prospect of conviction before we charge a suspect. "The evidence that the court heard included evidence of motive, evidence of means and also the evidence of the extra-marital affair that he was engaged in." He added: "Clearly we felt there was sufficient evidence in this case, but the final decision rests with the jury."
NO MENTION OF DOGGY EVIDENCE
In the Attracta Harron Case the Dogs actually found a body. It is what they are meant to do. Their finding the body was not part of the evidence given
NO DOGGY EVIDENCE
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 01:54:44 PM
You are probably right they did over value them to begin with, however there was a clear pattern of alerts, wasn't there?
The McCann's were clearly in a state of panic about being held and spoke of fleeing the country to Spain if i recall. Why on earth would they think they need to do that in a European country?
The return to England was not overvalued when they hired Pinochet's extradition lawyers Angus McBride & Michael Caplan.
Why on earth would innocent parents of a missing child feel the need to do that, and what inference can be drawn from parents openly thinking of fleeing the country and hiring such a crack and expensive team?
As a middle class professional of means, I would have done exactly the same if I thought the police intended to arrest and imprison me on flimsy evidence. Maybe you would not and would have been a noble martyr.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:57:03 PM
Ok you ignore the incorrect signal by the airport dog and get on the totally safe plane and its in-flight meal time and an EVRD who happens to be sitting next to you barks at the pork curry, but not at the veggie burger, does this affect your culinary choice?
I am told that I cannot use a certain word but you are becoming increasingly laughable in your pursuit of some sort of confession.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 01:57:32 PM
Well, in the Kate Prout Case the Mirror sums up the evidence as: Mr Pixton explained how the prosecution service built its case from Mrs Prout's disappearance on November 5 2007 to Prout's trial, which started on January 12 this year. He said: "We had a case where no body was ever found and therefore no creating of a forensic link between Adrian Prout and his wife's disappearance. "What we did have was evidence to show that this crime was premeditated, Adrian Prout had a means of concealing her body and also a reason to do so. "The South West Complex Case Work Unit took on this case at an early stage when it became apparent it would be a complex and lengthy investigation. The unit deals with serious and organised crime throughout the south west. "We worked closely with the Gloucestershire Constabulary, and a number of expert witnesses, to make sure we would be able to present every available piece of evidence to this jury at court. "The code of the crown prosecutors dictates we must have sufficient evidence for a good prospect of conviction before we charge a suspect. "The evidence that the court heard included evidence of motive, evidence of means and also the evidence of the extra-marital affair that he was engaged in." He added: "Clearly we felt there was sufficient evidence in this case, but the final decision rests with the jury."
NO MENTION OF DOGGY EVIDENCE
In the Attracta Harron Case the Dogs actually found a body. It is what they are meant to do. Their finding the body was not part of the evidence given
NO DOGGY EVIDENCE
Eddie found the only evidence in both cases. Cadaver odour in the burnt out car (no forensic evidence found in car) and Prout's home. Eddie also found Harron's buried body. He found it!
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 01:58:44 PM
As a middle class professional of means, I would have done exactly the same if I thought the police intended to arrest and imprison me on flimsy evidence. Maybe you would not and would have been a noble martyr.
What in Portugal? It's hardly Saudi Arabia, is it?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
Eddie found the only evidence in both cases. Cadaver odour in the burnt out car (no forensic evidence found in car) and Prout's home. Eddie also found Harron's body. He found it!
The prosecutor did not mention that in the summery of the evidence- there was plenty of other evidence.
I have never said that cadaver dog indications are not useful, just that they are circumstantial and open to error.
Of course they find corpses- that is there job.
Sometimes they don't find corpses and that means that eiother the corpse was removed, or they and their handler have alerted incorrectly.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 02:00:17 PM
What in Portugal? It's hardly Saudi Arabia, is it?
Wasn't there a touch of torture in a previous case?
And anyway, as Kate and Gerry said, the prospect of being separated from each other and their kids was a compelling reason to leave.
As it turned out, Amaral had hardly enough evidence to arguido them, let alone arrest them and keep them in prison- but that was what the 48 questions suggested was his aim.
The decamped rationally with PJ support.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 06, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.
And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.
My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.
Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.
Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.
Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.
first neither you nor anyone else on this forum has the knowledge or the expertise to make any valid interpretation of the dogs alerts.
secondly...fleeing from Portugal seems a very normal and sensible reaction having realised that they could be arrested and held on remand for anything up to a year whilst awaiting trial
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 02:26:12 PM
first neither you nor anyone else on this forum has the knowledge or the expertise to make any valid interpretation of the dogs alerts.
Correct! Which is why i have always stated I'm happy to take Grimes' sworn statements and methods as being correct and at face value.
Unlike of course Ferryman who gives the impression he is some kind of expert in this field but who has just admitted he has no knowledge other than what he has read following a few Google searches.
I think therefore you should be aiming that barb at Ferryman and not me.
secondly...fleeing from Portugal seems a very normal and sensible reaction having realised that they could be arrested and held on remand for anything up to a year whilst awaiting trial
Only if there was the evidence there to hold them. If they had done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to worry about, should they?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 06, 2013, 02:35:12 PM
A defiant Kate McCann has insisted that she and her husband will not be hounded out of Portugal. As the vilification of the couple continued in Praia da Luz, she said: "Sticks and stones... we will never go through anything worse than being parted from Madeleine.
"We will not be leaving or be forced out. I am not prepared to be bullied into doing something that I don't want to."
'On the flight to Berlin, Gerry wearily admitted the couple's campaign to find Madeleine could last years.
They refuse to leave Praia da Luz while their precious daughter is still missing.
Asked how long they might stay there, he said: "Well, our kids don't start school for three years."'
Daily Mirror, 07 June 2007
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Carana on December 06, 2013, 03:12:26 PM
"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie's nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Martin-Grime/1451898808
If cadaver odor is so transferable, why did not all the clothes in the boxes lead to alerts from Eddie?
What is that assertion based on? What's the background to that? Was it based on a single training exercise involving a few hours? Or more than that?
What is meant by - or rather interpreted as - a "false positive"? As a post-sex clean-up tissue was also within the parameters of his training... reacting to that wouldn't be a false positive, but was deemed irrelevant to the investigation in question.
No suggestion on my part concerning the case (just a general question), but if he had reacted to an old pig bone during even a training exercise (and therefore in "work mode) ... would that be a false positive or not? Would a child's milk tooth be a false positive? Would reacting to a used band-aid be a false positive?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Carana on December 06, 2013, 03:25:05 PM
On some of the anecdotal evidence, could someone please explain this one to me?
There are many instances such as this.
The most poignant being : When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD. A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat. The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample. There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.
And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.
My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.
Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.
Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.
Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.
I agree with some of that. If I'd found out that a dog had alerted to several planes, I wouldn't get on any until they had been thoroughly checked. There could always have been a plot to place an incendiary device. But then what? Either there was some kind of plot, or the dog was reacting to something innocuous (in one or more of the planes in question) and the world - and passengers - move on. The point is to check out the indications. What's the alternative... decommission the planes because a dog alerted?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 03:50:41 PM
Care to provide us with a list of who, aside from Grime, are the other EVRD handlers?
There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases?
If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term
It's interesting though that this is the only area of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.
Speaks volumes...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 03:52:02 PM
The key point, though, is whether you'd be happy about boarding an aircraft 'cleared' (as bomb-free!) by a dog if you knew that dogs had a record of missing bombs (or explosives) actually on aircraft.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases?
If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term
It's interesting though that this is the only area of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.
Speaks volumes...
So are you going to tell us who they are?
Or must we just take your word that what you say is so?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 03:59:56 PM
The key point, though, is whether you'd be happy about boarding an aircraft 'cleared' (as bomb-free!) by a dog if you knew that dogs had a record of missing bombs (or explosives) actually on aircraft.
LOL I've been stuck waiting loads of times due to "security issues" (not necessarily due to dogs, but obviously some kind of alert). Once the all-clear had been given, I took the flight.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 04:09:36 PM
LOL I've been stuck waiting loads of times due to "security issues" (not necessarily due to dogs, but obviously some kind of alert). Once the all-clear had been given, I took the flight.
And I'm thrilled, relieved, and delighted that absolutely every time, your judgement has been vindicated.
Long may the happy trend continue ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 04:13:56 PM
Make that 100% as he's never alerted to a false positive.
"'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal." (M. Grime)
That sentence does not say that Eddie has never reacted where there was no cadaver scent. Read it carefully.
Additionally:
could I ask what the alerts were in PdL. No cadaver residue was found. Does Grime count these as false positives? Why not? If they are not false positives, what are they?
They are cases where Eddie reacted and no cadaver was found. Now there are two possibilities- a cadaver was there and has gone or there was no cadaver there- we have no way of knowing so if we were being honest, these should be counted as false positives!
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 04:17:34 PM
All you have to do is to refer to the 'bible' which is the cornerstone of your arguments, Google ! https://touch.www.linkedin.com/?sessionid=239583579078656&as=false&rs=false#public-profile/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpub%2Fian-mcilwraith%2F41%2F658%2F917
Do you need more citations or can you manage on your own ?
What does a contrived link have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Carana on December 06, 2013, 04:19:21 PM
There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases? If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term
It's interesting though that this is the only area of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.
Speaks volumes...
I see Ferryman's point on this. I have found VRD, but not EVRD. I have assumed that the Enhanced denotes that he had undergone some training on human cadavers at some point.
But, to use the Hoover analogy, not all domestic aspiration devices have the same USP at doing exactly the same job.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 04:19:36 PM
There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases?
If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term
It's interesting though that this is the only area of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.
Speaks volumes...
There are many VRD's around. They mainly find whole bodies buried or hidden. Grime added extra training and invented a new term- Enhanced VRD.
I would like to see a cite to any other source for the term EVRD.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 04:33:41 PM
All you have to do is to refer to the 'bible' which is the cornerstone of your arguments, Google ! https://touch.www.linkedin.com/?sessionid=239583579078656&as=false&rs=false#public-profile/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpub%2Fian-mcilwraith%2F41%2F658%2F917
Do you need more citations or can you manage on your own ?
Read carefully and don't assume.
He does not say he is an EVRD dog handler, only that he has experience- Grime used to run courses with his EVRD and handed out pretty certificates!
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 04:40:01 PM
I see Ferryman's point on this. I have found VRD, but not EVRD. I have assumed that the Enhanced denotes that he had undergone some training on human cadavers at some point.
But, to use the Hoover analogy, not all domestic aspiration devices have the same USP at doing exactly the same job.
The 'enhanced' was not becasue of being trained on human remains (all US VRDs are). The 'enhanced' was the claim that Eddie would react locally not globally to cadaver odor. If you read the texts, VRDs are trained to indicate general areas where bodies may be, not specific places. There is a whole chapter on how cadaver scent may be carried by fluid flow underground and emerge downstream. VRDs were never intended to indicate trace cadaver odor as Grime has claimed that Eddie can.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 05:08:01 PM
You asked for a list of EVRD handlers, I gave you one example, you claimed it was a "contrived link" ! I asked you to elaborate on how the link was contrived, I'm still awaiting an answer please !
He does not act as an EVRD Dog Handler.
He Trained with Grime and Eddie and has experience of doing so, but no 'EVRD' dog of his own.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 06:33:13 PM
What does he state on his linked in page under "Skills & expertise" ?
We can dance this tango 'til dawn but you'll still be in the wrong as you have already conceded with the rather infantile response "yawn", I suggest that that is the level of your intellect and debating skills when the argument is failing you !
He does have skills and expertise with an EVRD- Eddie on a course.
The argument started because it was said that Eddie was the only EVRD.
This man has only handled Eddie.
Eddie is the only EVRD (unless someone can find a cite for another).
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 07:45:49 PM
So Ian McIwraith lists handlers of dogs he has had dealings with:
Evrd dog handler
1Explosive detection
1Dog handler
And is himself the handler of two springer spaniels.
And? ...
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: Luz on December 06, 2013, 08:11:11 PM
I suggest the British authorities review all the convictions/cases where Eddie and Keela intervened, because according to some experts in here their work is worthless.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 08:17:37 PM
I suggest the British authorities review all the convictions/cases where Eddie and Keela intervened, because according to some experts in here their work is worthless.
Worthless in PdL and worthless in Haut de la Garene
But accurate in the Atracta Harron case (confirmed by forensic results) where a vicious and nasty murderer was put behind bars.
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 07, 2013, 08:13:28 PM
I don't think there is any realistic chance of any of the 3 indications at apartment being caused by non-human animal material. However there is a good chance IMO that two of those indications may be caused by a minor human cut of a different date and nothing to do with the case. In the lounge Eddie's indicated that in addition to the scent there was a physical source, and Keela confirmed this,and so did lab tests, so this location could easily result from a tiler's minor injury during installation of the tiles. In the garden there were samples taken from the climbing plant for tests, as far as I know the lab results were inconclusive? but the assumption was they might be blood. Outside, rain would wash away the physical source. So here it may easliy be a historical cut experienced by a gardener pruning the plant. In the bedroom Eddie indicated a scent only, with no physical source present, and the non-signal by Keela confirmed that. So is it possible that of the 3 indications at the apartment, only the latter may be relevant?
Title: Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2013, 01:49:27 AM
This link describes 3 search dogs from Sitka, Alaska, indicating a place on the ocean surface from a boat. When the search team lowered a camera they found the victim where the dogs said. In saltw..er on the floor of the Pacific Ocean. Guess how many feet down. Many more cases too http://k9sardog.blogspot.co.uk/2009_08_01_archive.html