UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on November 09, 2014, 12:48:32 PM
-
Parents risk criminal record because law is unclear about when they can leave children home alone, MP warns
Ministers urged to issue guidance on the age when children can be trusted
Government says there is no law on the issue and points to NCPCC
Lib Dem MP John Hemming says: 'The law should always be clear'
Mother in battle to remove caution for leaving her son eight years ago
By Matt Chorley
Political Editor for MailOnline
Published 9 November 2014
Parents risk being branded criminals if they leave their children home alone because the law on neglect is not clear, it was warned today.
The government is being urged to issue guidance on the age at which youngsters can be trusted on their own, and for how long.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/09/1415533786672_Image_galleryImage_Girl_sat_alone_on_stairs_.JPG)
It follows a case of a mother struggling to get a job as a mental health nurse after leaving her six-year-old son for 45 minutes eight years ago.
There is nothing in the law about when children can be left home alone, only a warning that they must not be put at risk
There is nothing in the law about when children can be left home alone, only a warning that they must not be put at risk
At present the law does not state an age when a parent can leave a child on their own.
It is, however, an offence for a child to be put at risk by not being supervised.
The Department for Education directs parents to the NSPCC for information.
However, Lib Dem MP John Hemming is calling for the government to be clearer about the circumstances in which parents could be cautioned or prosecuted by police.
'It is not at all clear for how long and at what age children can be left alone,' he told The Sunday Times.
'Nor is it clear whether leaving them alone is either not an issue, a child-protection issue or a criminal issue.
'I sent my daughter, then aged 10, on the train from Birmingham to stay with my mother in Devon. There were no changes and she was met at the other end. Was that acceptable?'
He went on: 'I find it odd that whereas it is lawful to send the child to the park and leave them there, it is not lawful to leave them home alone.
'My main concern in all this is clarity. The law should always be clear. We need a debate about what the rules should be.'
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/09/1415533793858_wps_2_Birmingham_Yardley_MP_Joh.jpg)
MP John Hemming is calling for the government to be clearer about laws on parents leaving children at home.
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS...
The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.
Use your judgement on how mature your child is before you decide to leave them alone.
The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:
Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
Children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
Parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised ‘in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health’.
It follows the case of a women called Joan who eight years ago left he son, aged six at the time, while she had a driving lesson – her last before her driving test.
'We went to the school but it was closed. There was no one home to look after him. He was in no danger when I left him,' she told the newspaper.
She returned to find the police on her doorstep after a nurse called at the house and the boy answered the door.
Joan went to her local police station and was given a caution, which has since meant she struggled to pursue her chosen career as a mental health nurse. She is now trying to have the caution removed.
She added: 'I applied to five universities to study and four did not accept me because of this caution,' she said. 'I am now trying to get this removed. My son is 14, at school and absolutely fine.'
A spokesman for the Department for Education said 'The law is clear that parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health. It is vital children be kept safe.'
A page on the gov.uk website states: 'The law doesn't say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it's an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.
'Use your judgement on how mature your child is before you decide to leave them alone.
'The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:
· children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
· children under 16 shouldn't be left alone overnight
· babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
'Parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised 'in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health'.'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2827324/Parents-risk-criminal-record-law-unclear-leave-children-home-MP-warns.html
-
· babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
'Parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised 'in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health'.'[/b]
-
· babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
'Parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised 'in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health'.'
I think most understand exactly what that means and it doesn't mean
-
I think most understand exactly what that means
In this country there have been cases, in the news recently,where parents have been prosecuted for neglect.
-
In this country there have been cases, in the news recently,where parents have been prosecuted for neglect.
The article carly has quoted emphasises that child neglect is a grey area in the law. The woman who was cautioned has not been found guilty of any criminal offence re child neglect
-
If the McCanns were guilty of breaking the law because of their childcare arrangements - then so are the hoteliers and tour operators who offer an identical Listening Service - which specifically involves leaving sleeping children unsupervised for periods of time.
And so is every other parent who has signed up for this service when on holiday.
And so are the parents who rely on Baby Alarms as baby sitters. IMO
This constant pretence that it is ONLY the McCanns who ever adopted this type of child checking is pathetic IMO.
And anyone who thinks no other parents ever - in the history of the Listening Service - left doors or windows unlocked - either by accident or design is being extremely unrealistic IMO.
The PT AG stated that because of the regular checks, the requirement of 'abandonment' necessary to prove neglect was not fulfilled. Full stop.
-
If the McCanns were guilty of breaking the law because of their childcare arrangements - then so are the hoteliers and tour operators who offer an identical Listening Service - which specifically involves leaving sleeping children unsupervised for periods of time.
In this country, they would have to meet the requirements of the Children's Act 1989.
And so is every other parent who has signed up for this service when on holiday.
That is abroad.
And so are the parents who rely on Baby Alarms as baby sitters. IMO
BS
This constant pretence that it is ONLY the McCanns who ever adopted this type of child checking is pathetic IMO.
And anyone who thinks no other parents ever - in the history of the Listening Service - left doors or windows unlocked - either by accident or design is being extremely unrealistic IMO.
The PT AG stated that because of the regular checks, the requirement of 'abandonment' necessary to prove neglect was not fulfilled. Full stop.
-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11232799/Make-it-a-crime-to-leave-children-under-12-home-alone-say-parents.html
-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11232799/Make-it-a-crime-to-leave-children-under-12-home-alone-say-parents.html
But OK to let them out on the streets without adult supervision?
-
so is it ok for 11 yr olds to walk to school on their own?
-
Children should be allowed to walk to and from school alone or with friends at 11 or even younger if parents deem it safe for them to do so, the law should not legislate against it IMO.
-
Children should be allowed to walk to and from school alone or with friends at 11 or even younger if parents deem it safe for them to do so, the law should not legislate against it IMO.
What about at 3?
-
What about at 3?
3 yr olds don't go to school
-
..........but dave, their children's age didn't stop the mccanns leaving their children unattended in a foreign country.
Not one jot.
And neither did it stop the hundreds of thousands of other parents who have signed up for the Baby Listening Service whilst on holiday - leaving their children/babies unattended but being regularly checked by staff while they went to dinner. You keep forgetting that fact.
-
And neither did it stop the hundreds of thousands of other parents who have signed up for the Baby Listening Service whilst on holiday - leaving their children/babies unattended but being regularly checked by staff while they went to dinner. You keep forgetting that fact.
The personal way that the Mccanns checked every half hour, going into the apartment was infinitely better than that.
In the case of the thousands of other parents you mention, Benice, many of them were not within sight ... nor were they within hearing distance. Many were a long way away, even chosing no doubt to go out elsewhere.
But you, Stephen have an obssessive hatred of The Mccanns for some reason. Why dont you set up a group aimed at stopping all the thousands of parents that are truly irresponsible?
-
The minimum age for criminal responsibility is 10, isn't it? How can a 10 year old not therefore be classed as old enough to be left at home alone?
-
Make it a crime to leave children under 12 home alone, say parents
The article confirms there is no minimum age re the law
-
For far too long this issue has been avoided by successive governments. There has to be a level playing field throughout the UK where the actions of parents who endanger their children are properly addressed and appropriate sanctions and/or punishment handed out.
-
This woman left a child of eleven alone for 45 minutes. To suggest that this is neglect is ridiculous, in my opinion.
If she hadn't accepted The Caution then I very much doubt she would have been prosecuted.
-
If the McCanns were guilty of breaking the law because of their childcare arrangements - then so are the hoteliers and tour operators who offer an identical Listening Service - which specifically involves leaving sleeping children unsupervised for periods of time.
And so is every other parent who has signed up for this service when on holiday.
And so are the parents who rely on Baby Alarms as baby sitters. IMO
This constant pretence that it is ONLY the McCanns who ever adopted this type of child checking is pathetic IMO.
And anyone who thinks no other parents ever - in the history of the Listening Service - left doors or windows unlocked - either by accident or design is being extremely unrealistic IMO.
The PT AG stated that because of the regular checks, the requirement of 'abandonment' necessary to prove neglect was not fulfilled. Full stop.
I don't think that's the pretence, though.
I think the pretence is that the McCanns, uniquely among other parents who have done the same (or similar) as them, have somehow broken the law.
-
"Children under 16 should not be left alone overnight" but they are responsible enough to get married on their 16th Birthday? &%+((£
I think it depends on the child. Many are trustworthy and sensible at a much younger age than 12 and safe to leave at home for short spells.
-
"Children under 16 should not be left alone overnight" but they are responsible enough to get married on their 16th Birthday? &%+((£
I think it depends on the child. Many are trustworthy and sensible at a much younger age than 12 and safe to leave at home for short spells.
Agreed that that is the problem with a prescriptive law that leaves parents no leeway to adjudge the maturity of their own child ...
-
I don't think that's the pretence, though.
I think the pretence is that the McCanns, uniquely among other parents who have done the same (or similar) as them, have somehow broken the law.
Why is the subject of the McCanns leaving the children 7 years ago, coming up over and over again.
What can be achieved from this?
It's water under the bridge and it's finding what happened to Maddie that is of utmost importance now.
-
Why is the subject of the McCanns leaving the children 7 years ago, coming up over and over again.
What can be achieved from this?
It's water under the bridge and it's finding what happened to Maddie that is of utmost importance now.
I agree.
But it won't stop.
-
I agree.
But it won't stop.
If it stops one family going through the same scenario, surely it is worth it?
-
If it stops one family going through the same scenario, surely it is worth it?
I doubt all the McCanns are going through will make a jot of difference to parenting decisions of parents with their children in the future ...
-
If it stops one family going through the same scenario, surely it is worth it?
Surely all what will be worth it? 7 years of harping on about the McCanns' neglect? Don't you think the fact of Madeleine's kidnapping is enough to put people off leaving their kids unattended, far more so than the bitching that goes on about the McCanns' parenting decisions?
-
Hang on. In the UK, children aged 10 are deemed criminally responsible, but shouldn't be left alone until 12? How does that work?
-
Hang on. In the UK, children aged 10 are deemed criminally responsible, but shouldn't be left alone until 12? How does that work?
Very good question.
I suppose, left unattended, they might commit a crime ...
-
Very good question.
I suppose, left unattended, they might commit a crime ...
And if they did, they would be held responsible for it! But if the law changed to make it illegal to leave kids alone perhaps the parents would be charged with their kids' crimes instead. Now, there's a thought...
-
What about at 3?
Or at 2 ?
-
If a law is required regarding the minimum age at which a child can be left unattended, then another law is also required for the minimum age of the carer of such child or children.
-
If a law is required regarding the minimum age at which a child can be left unattended, then another law is also required for the minimum age of the carer of such child or children.
So how big a problem is this...how many children have been hurt due their parents popping to the shops...are there not much more important things the govt need to address
-
So how big a problem is this...how many children have been hurt due their parents popping to the shops...are there not much more important things the govt need to address
Yes!
There are guidelines provided by The NSPCC which are adequate and if flouted to the point of endangering children existing laws may be invoked to "punish" transgressors. Or the local authority will use its far reaching powers as it deems appropriate. The presence of a law will be no deterrent to certain sections of the community. The problem with government is that it always wants to be seen as rough tough rootin' tootin' shootin' introducing new laws that are unnecessary to satisfy what it perceives as public opinion.
Why don't I go around killing people? because I have no desire to not because there is a law to punish me if I do.
If someone really wanted to commit a crime or take a risk then no law would stop them.
-
One of the problems of having guidelines rather than laws is the inconsistency with which they are applied.
One person can be taken to court for leaving a child alone for, while another isn't.
-
One of the problems of having guidelines rather than laws is the inconsistency with which they are applied.
One person can be taken to court for leaving a child alone for, while another isn't.
Probably because every case is different. And you can't legislate on that.
-
No, that's what judges are for.
-
No, that's what judges are for.
judges don't decide which cases go to court
-
The point is that if there was a specific law, all cases that broke it would go to court.
-
The point is that if there was a specific law, all cases that broke it would go to court.
it would take a great dealof time and money to change the law...what's the evidence it needs changing...how amny children are being harmed...how many parents will be turned into criminals
-
it would take a great dealof time and money to change the law...what's the evidence it needs changing...how amny children are being harmed...how many parents will be turned into criminals
I'm not arguing that it wouldn't - when has cost ever stopped something that a government wished to do.
Perhaps these parents should be turned into criminals if they do something against the law.
-
I'm not arguing that it wouldn't - when has cost ever stopped something that a government wished to do.
Perhaps these parents should be turned into criminals if they do something against the law.
there are far more children being harmed whilst in the care of adults...and whilst being babysat and in the care of nurseries
-
So? Is that a reason for not having an age law?
-
So? Is that a reason for not having an age law?
you are advocating a nanny state...do we need an age law for going on a bus unaccompanied..should all babysitters be criminally vetted
-
Perhaps the issue of babysitters might be worth consideration - there have been a number of nasty cases where children have been harmed by their childminder.
No doubt if you were running a professional babysitting service, you would need to be vetted.
-
The point is that if there was a specific law, all cases that broke it would go to court.
Are you sure about that? Doesn't the CPS consider "public interest" before deciding on prosecution?
-
It might be at present - doesn't mean that it always has to be or always will be. Rules get changed at the whim of politicians.
-
Perhaps the issue of babysitters might be worth consideration - there have been a number of nasty cases where children have been harmed by their childminder.
No doubt if you were running a professional babysitting service, you would need to be vetted.
unfortunately far more than those hurt by being left alone for a short period
-
Does that matter ? A law could be all inclusive and cover a number of issues.
-
Does that matter ? A law could be all inclusive and cover a number of issues.
It would be a minefield of extenuating circumstances. And it would never get through Parliament.
-
It would be a minefield of extenuating circumstances. And it would never get through Parliament.
Oh I don't know - get the Daily Mail behind it and all things are possible @)(++(*
-
Perhaps the issue of babysitters might be worth consideration - there have been a number of nasty cases where children have been harmed by their childminder.
No doubt if you were running a professional babysitting service, you would need to be vetted.
Yes, I have no problem with that.
Back when I was a typically broke student, I sometimes babysat as a resut of ads in the papers.
In one instance, I turned up and was given a 5-minute explanation of the child's evening routine and a phone number in the event of an emergency (and this was before mobile phones).
I knew that I was totally trustworthy and responsible, but the child's parent didn't know me from Adam.
-
Oh I don't know - get the Daily Mail behind it and all things are possible @)(++(*
By the time I had finished with The Daily Mail they would be begging for Parliament to mind it's own business.
-
there are far more children being harmed whilst in the care of adults...and whilst being babysat and in the care of nurseries
...at crèches etc...
-
...at crèches etc...
night crèche...paedophile paradise
-
night crèche...paedophile paradise
so you are calling creche staff paedos????
-
so you are calling creche staff paedos????
no
-
night crèche...paedophile paradise
and your evidence is ?
-
and your evidence is ?
Although there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this may have been the case at PdL - there have been cases of paedaphiles working at nurseries. The Vanessa George case is just one example.
-
Although there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this may have been the case at PdL - there have been cases of paedaphiles working at nurseries. The Vanessa George case is just one example.
So this is an example of clutching at any AVAILABLE STRAW .
-
Are you sure about that? Doesn't the CPS consider "public interest" before deciding on prosecution?
Yes, it does.
-
So this is an example of clutching at any AVAILABLE STRAW .
No - it is evidence that nurseries/creches are not immune from paedaphiles. That is the evidence you were asking for isn't it?
-
No - it is evidence that nurseries/creches are not immune from paedaphiles. That is the evidence you were asking for isn't it?
Did you miss it Stephen?
Paedophiles in nurseries/ cheches :
Vanessa George ... Do you remember her?
-
Oh I don't know - get the Daily Mail behind it and all things are possible @)(++(*
Or even Rebecca Brookes !!!
-
unfortunately far more than those hurt by being left alone for a short period
Would you like to share the full SP on that with the forum?
-
Would you like to share the full SP on that with the forum?
I don't know of one child in the uk being harmed having been left home alone for a short..or even long...period...
several sexual assaults in nurseries..by childminders and of course fatal accidents
-
I don't know of one child in the uk being harmed having been left home alone for a short..or even long...period...
several sexual assaults in nurseries..by childminders and of course fatal accidents
Your saying "I don't know of......" is hardly a definitive statement.
I was rather hoping you would share with the forum some reliable data rather than just your opinion.
-
Your saying "I don't know of......" is hardly a definitive statement.
I was rather hoping you would share with the forum some reliable data rather than just your opinion.
I don't know of one child in the uk being harmed having been left home alone for a short..or even long...period...
several sexual assaults in nurseries..by childminders and of course fatal accidents
You cant prove a negative Alice
If it didn't happen, then there will be no reports on it
Will there?
-
You cant prove a negative Alice
If it didn't happen, then there will be no reports on it
Will there?
Shall we start here sadie http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4945181/Mother-jailed-over-home-alone-daughters-fire-death.html and work our way forward ?
-
Shall we start here sadie http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4945181/Mother-jailed-over-home-alone-daughters-fire-death.html and work our way forward ?
More than three hours. And not the first time she had been called to account.
Interesting about the phone pings. She was outside, and not where she said she was.
-
More than three hours. And not the first time she had been called to account.
Interesting about the phone pings. She was outside, and not where she said she was.
Are we changing the goalposts then ?
So how quickly do you think it would take for a fire to kill a child ?
-
Shall we start here sadie http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4945181/Mother-jailed-over-home-alone-daughters-fire-death.html and work our way forward ?
yes lets start here...one incident so far...5 years ago...child left for 3 hours...good start..next
-
yes lets start here...one incident so far...5 years ago...child left for 3 hours...good start..next
So if a fire had started at the front of apartment 5a, an electrical fault say, how long do you think it would have been before the flames spread to where the McCanns and their friends could see them and how likely do you think it would have been that the children could have been saved at that point ?
-
Are we changing the goalposts then ?
So how quickly do you think it would take for a fire to kill a child ?
She was charged with Neglect, and was miles away from home for more than three hours.
-
So if a fire had started at the front of apartment 5a, an electrical fault say, how long do you think it would have been before the flames spread to where the McCanns and their friends could see them and how likely do you think it would have been that the children could have been saved at that point ?
Safety Standards re Electric wiring in holiday accommodation.
-
So if a fire had started at the front of apartment 5a, an electrical fault say, how long do you think it would have been before the flames spread to where the McCanns and their friends could see them and how likely do you think it would have been that the children could have been saved at that point ?
very little wood used in the PDL apartment construction...most likely cause of death in home accident would be fire..no fire in PDL
-
Safety Standards re Electric wiring in holiday accommodation.
Strange how PT swings between being a lawless 3rd world country and the epitome of state of the art engineering and safety. 8(0(*
-
Strange how PT swings between being a lawless 3rd world country and the epitome of state of the art engineering and safety. 8(0(*
Hardly the same thing. The Ocean Club would require Certificates of Safety, and Yearly Inspections. I know this to be true because I deal with Holiday Accommodation.
Such a pity that The Ocean Club didn't see fit to warn clients about Burglaries and Sexual Abuse by passing inhabitants.
-
very little wood used in the PDL apartment construction...most likely cause of death in home accident would be fire..no fire in PDL
Are you forgetting minor details like sofa cushions, clothes, newspapers, bedlinen, aerosols, hobs.
This could save the fire service a mint - ignore all callouts to buildings which have no wood in their construction?
-
Are you forgetting minor details like sofa cushions, clothes, newspapers, bedlinen, aerosols, hobs.
They are not made of wood.
This could save the fire service a mint - ignore all callouts to buildings which have no wood in their construction?
so did maddie die in a fire
-
...most likely cause of death in home accident would be fire...
Which statistical study are you referring to?
-
Which statistical study are you referring to?
Rank* Age <1 Ages 1–4 Ages 5–9 Ages 10–14 Ages 15–19
1 Suffocation
907 (77%) Drowning
450 (31%) Motor Vehicle (MV) Traffic
378 (49%) MV Traffic
491 (68%) MV Traffic
3,242 (67%)
2 MV Traffic
91 (8%) MV Traffic
363 (25%) Drowning
119 (15%) Transportation – Other
117 (15%) Poisoning
715 (15%)
3 Drowning
45 (4%) Fire/Burns
169 (12%) Fire/Burns
88 (11%) Drowning
90 (10%) Drowning
279 (6%)
4 Fire/Burns
25 (2%) Transportation – Other
147 (10%) Transportation – Other
68 (9%) Fire/Burns
53 (6%) Transportation – Other
203 (4%)
5 Poisoning
22 (2%) Suffocation
125 (9%) Suffocation
26 (3%) Suffocation
41 (5%) Fall
-
@dave1 In the statistics you refer to, for ages 1 to 4, fire is the third commonest cause , not the first.
But that is general statistics covering in the home and out of the home.
Statistics for in the home is what would be useful
-
@dave1 In the statistics you refer to, for ages 1 to 4, fire is the third commonest cause , not the first.
But that is general statistics covering in the home and out of the home.
Statistics for in the home is what would be useful
so there wont be any car accidents in the home...
-
Toddlers and Preschoolers: About 30% of accidental deaths in children ages one to four were caused by drowning and and about 30% by car crashes. In this age group, fire and burn injuries were the third leading cause of accidental death. Other leading risks were pedestrian injury and suffocation.
##School-aged kids: Children ages five to 14 are at greatest risk from car crashes (almost 55% of accidental deaths in this age group) and drowning (about 11%). Accidental fire/burn injuries were the third leading cause at about 9%.
So fire is the third cause after car crashes and drowning...makes sense that the vast majority of fires are in the home...car accidents and drowning outside the home
-
so there wont be any car accidents in the home...
Precisely. The statistics you quoted which include all events out of the home as well as in the home give for this age first drowning, second vehicle collisions, third fire.
We need to look instead at statistics for in the home. There are plenty available.
-
Precisely. The statistics you quoted give for this age first drowning, second vehicle collisions, third fire. We need to look instead at statistics for in the home. There are plenty available.
post them and prove me wrong.
-
post them and prove me wrong.
I am not disputing that fire may possibly be the commonest cause of death in the home.
What I was disputing was your "no fire without wood" proposition.
More relevant "in the home" statistics will be interesting, and they may prove you are right about fire being commonest.
ETA http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
-
You cant prove a negative Alice
If it didn't happen, then there will be no reports on it
Will there?
So Gerry said. It is however possible and is rather dependent on domain size.
Nonetheless Mr Davel could provide data to back up his assertion or is he so special that he is exempt from forum rules?
-
You can't prove a negative? Has anyone got proof of that?
-
Falls
Falls are the most common type of accident in the home, accounting for 44% of all childhood injuries. About 10 children in the UK die each year as a result of falling from balconies, windows and stairs.
For babies, the biggest danger is rolling off the edge of a table, bed or sofa. Toddlers quickly learn how to climb and explore and it's very easy for them to fall off a piece of furniture, down stairs or out of a window or balcony.
from here.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
The guidelines should be strict, no children under 12 should be left on their own, i think its a ludicrous ruling that people can interpret anyway they like in this country.
3 children in a flat had so many ways they could have been harmed. Just crawling or climbing out of travel cot and smash head hard on the tile floor could result in death....
No its NEVER right to leave kids, and its time the ministers made it illegal to do so.
-
Falls
Falls are the most common type of accident in the home, accounting for 44% of all childhood injuries. About 10 children in the UK die each year as a result of falling from balconies, windows and stairs.
For babies, the biggest danger is rolling off the edge of a table, bed or sofa. Toddlers quickly learn how to climb and explore and it's very easy for them to fall off a piece of furniture, down stairs or out of a window or balcony.
from here.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
The guidelines should be strict, no children under 12 should be left on their own, i think its a ludicrous ruling that people can interpret anyway they like in this country.
3 children in a flat had so many ways they could have been harmed. Just crawling or climbing out of travel cot and smash head hard on the tile floor could result in death....
No its NEVER right to leave kids, and its time the ministers made it illegal to do so.
You have made the usual mistake of quoting the figures for accidents when we are discussing fatal accidents..we all know that falls are the most common accidents but are rarely fatal...fires are a different matter
-
You can't prove a negative? Has anyone got proof of that?
Gerry McCann?
-
Hardly the same thing. The Ocean Club would require Certificates of Safety, and Yearly Inspections. I know this to be true because I deal with Holiday Accommodation.
Such a pity that The Ocean Club didn't see fit to warn clients about Burglaries and Sexual Abuse by passing inhabitants.
If for example you stayed at a Campanile would you expect the receptionist to warn you about theft and sex offenders?.
As a principle is your objection to hotels and resorts in general not issuing warnings or just the Ocean Club and Portuguese hotels and resorts in particular?.
-
If for example you stayed at a Campanile would you expect the receptionist to warn you about theft and sex offenders?.
As a principle is your objection to hotels and resorts in general not issuing warnings or just the Ocean Club and Portuguese hotels and resorts in particular?.
Don't be silly.
-
We remain waiting in excited anticipation for Mr Davel to provide the data which will back up his assertions.
-
Don't be silly.
That is no sillier that your comment O Lady High Moderator.
-
Falls
Falls are the most common type of accident in the home, accounting for 44% of all childhood injuries. About 10 children in the UK die each year as a result of falling from balconies, windows and stairs.
For babies, the biggest danger is rolling off the edge of a table, bed or sofa. Toddlers quickly learn how to climb and explore and it's very easy for them to fall off a piece of furniture, down stairs or out of a window or balcony.
from here.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
The guidelines should be strict, no children under 12 should be left on their own, i think its a ludicrous ruling that people can interpret anyway they like in this country.
3 children in a flat had so many ways they could have been harmed. Just crawling or climbing out of travel cot and smash head hard on the tile floor could result in death....
No its NEVER right to leave kids, and its time the ministers made it illegal to do so.
Accidents happen to the best loved and cared for children.
The snip posted illustrates just one instance. The little girl may have died in the space of 20 seconds. Think of the implications of that, and what sort of legislation would be required to address it.
For example, when putting refuse out ... or a washing ... must the children be taken as well? If not, is the parent or responsible person to be considered negligent in law?
Loop cord deaths 'under-reported'
Muireann was hanged by the blind cord on 5 February last year
The parents of a toddler who died after being strangled by a window blind cord have said there could be many more similar deaths going unreported.
Angus and Katie McLaughlin want to hear from anyone who has suffered a similar incident involving blinds.
Their campaign comes after their two-year-old daughter Muireann was accidently hanged at their home in Menstrie, Clackmannanshire, last year.
The couple are calling for a ban on looped blind cords.
A fatal accident inquiry into the circumstances surrounding Muireann's death found there was a widespread lack of awareness about the dangers posed by the cords. In his findings following the inquiry, Sheriff David Mackie called for a ban on the style of window blind and a publicity campaign to inform consumers of the risks.
Muireann died on 5 February, 2008, after climbing onto a toy box to wave goodbye to her grandmother from an upstairs window.
Muireann's parents want a ban on blind cords to prevent other deaths
She tripped and banged her head on the ledge, causing her neck to become tangled in the cord.
Evidence from the inquiry suggested she may have died in as little as 20 seconds.
Mr McLaughlin said it was almost impossible to know exactly how many people had died as a result of being hanged by the cords because of the way such deaths were recorded.
Current figures suggest that between one and two children die a year in the UK after being caught in the cord
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12800371
-
You have made the usual mistake of quoting the figures for accidents when we are discussing fatal accidents..we all know that falls are the most common accidents but are rarely fatal...fires are a different matter
The thread is about possible guidance by government on the risks of leaving children at home, which obviously includes non-fatal accidents, so the statistic that 44% of child accidents at home are falls seems to fit the thread quite nicely.
-
@Brietta Thanks for posting that. IIRC (in addition to all three having external metal shutters) the dining area window and the kitchen window also had internal venetian blinds, but the lounge window did not, IIRC.
-
We remain waiting in excited anticipation for Mr Davel to provide the data which will back up his assertions.
Dave1 may be correct if looking at fatalities only.
-
The thread is about possible guidance by government on the risks of leaving children at home, which obviously includes non-fatal accidents, so the statistic that 44% of child accidents at home are falls seems to fit the thread quite nicely.
I was posting with direct reference to maddie and the possible death in the apartment. We all know about accidents in the home...most happen when children are active...not when they are tucked up in bed...and therefore happen when parents are present in the home. It is wrong to make a direct correlation between accidents and children being left alone. I don't accept that the McCanns were negligent or placed Maddie at risk of a serious accident...they placed her at risk of abduction.
-
Falls
Falls are the most common type of accident in the home, accounting for 44% of all childhood injuries. About 10 children in the UK die each year as a result of falling from balconies, windows and stairs.
For babies, the biggest danger is rolling off the edge of a table, bed or sofa. Toddlers quickly learn how to climb and explore and it's very easy for them to fall off a piece of furniture, down stairs or out of a window or balcony.
from here.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
The guidelines should be strict, no children under 12 should be left on their own, i think its a ludicrous ruling that people can interpret anyway they like in this country.
3 children in a flat had so many ways they could have been harmed. Just crawling or climbing out of travel cot and smash head hard on the tile floor could result in death....
No its NEVER right to leave kids, and its time the ministers made it illegal to do so.
10 children die in falls each year in the UK, which is a whole lot less than are abducted by strangers each year. Who'd a thunk it, eh?
-
Falls
Falls are the most common type of accident in the home, accounting for 44% of all childhood injuries. About 10 children in the UK die each year as a result of falling from balconies, windows and stairs.
For babies, the biggest danger is rolling off the edge of a table, bed or sofa. Toddlers quickly learn how to climb and explore and it's very easy for them to fall off a piece of furniture, down stairs or out of a window or balcony.
from here.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-to-children-in-the-home/Pages/How-to-prevent-accidents.aspx
The guidelines should be strict, no children under 12 should be left on their own, i think its a ludicrous ruling that people can interpret anyway they like in this country.
3 children in a flat had so many ways they could have been harmed. Just crawling or climbing out of travel cot and smash head hard on the tile floor could result in death....
No its NEVER right to leave kids, and its time the ministers made it illegal to do so.
that is an absolutely ludicrous statement...so an eleven yr old can travel on public transport on an hours journey to school but can't be left alone for 10 mins whilst dad pops to the shops
-
I was posting with direct reference to maddie and the possible death in the apartment. We all know about accidents in the home...most happen when children are active...not when they are tucked up in bed...and therefore happen when parents are present in the home. It is wrong to make a direct correlation between accidents and children being left alone. I don't accept that the McCanns were negligent or placed Maddie at risk of a serious accident...they placed her at risk of abduction.
It was naïve of them not to take that risk into consideration ... if they had been aware of the burglars active in the resort and the assaults on children sleeping in holiday homes a quick risk assessment, which must have been a thought for potential accidents, would have determined their subsequent actions.
-
I was posting with direct reference to maddie and the possible death in the apartment. We all know about accidents in the home...most happen when children are active...not when they are tucked up in bed...and therefore happen when parents are present in the home. It is wrong to make a direct correlation between accidents and children being left alone. I don't accept that the McCanns were negligent or placed Maddie at risk of a serious accident...they placed her at risk of abduction.
By not being present they placed their children at risk "from all causes" as one might say.
But then your start point is the McCanns behaved in a thoroughly reasonable manner within the bounds of good parenting. Whilst they broke no laws the Portuguese thought their actions were flaky and by the NSPCC Guidelines they were flaky. Now when you my son can trump the NSPCC as an expert in the field I will listen to you. My belief is their actions were to take unnecessary risks on more than one occasion.
-
It was naïve of them not to take that risk into consideration ... if they had been aware of the burglars active in the resort and the assaults on children sleeping in holiday homes a quick risk assessment, which must have been a thought for potential accidents, would have determined their subsequent actions.
If ever we see a photo of the second safety notice on the lounge balcony door then we'll be able to see what it says (I wonder if it was advice to ensure all windows and doors are locked before going out?)
-
By not being present they placed their children at risk "from all causes" as one might say.
But then your start point is the McCanns behaved in a thoroughly reasonable manner within the bounds of good parenting. Whilst they broke no laws the Portuguese thought their actions were flaky and by the NSPCC Guidelines they were flaky. Now when you my son can trump the NSPCC as an expert in the field I will listen to you. My belief is their actions were to take unnecessary risks on more than one occasion.
You have your belief and I have mine...could you point out where they went against NSPCC guidelines
Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
Children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
so babies and toddlers cannot sleep in their own room?
-
You have your belief and I have mine...could you point out where they went against NSPCC guidelines
Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
Children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
so babies and toddlers cannot sleep in their own room?
So if you hired a childminder and found they had popped out for a sarny ... ?
-
So if you hired a childminder and found they had popped out for a sarny ... ?
My point is that even the guidelines are vague..plus... I am not going to crucify the McCanns over their baby listening arrangements...they should be pitied rather than blamed IMO
-
All parents should be chained 24/7 to all of their children under 16. That should cover it.
-
All parents should be chained 24/7 to all of their children under 16. That should cover it.
and the law should be backdated to may 2007 and cover offences overseas too..that should satisfy those on here..
-
My point is that even the guidelines are vague..plus... I am not going to crucify the McCanns over their baby listening arrangements...they should be pitied rather than blamed IMO
I assume you would disagree with me on this the various legal peeps in their hats who came out with with cleverly crafted and indeed technically correct in a legal sense stuff like "well within the bounds ..." were actually doing no good at all in terms of public image because your ordinary peep on the street sees straight through it.
-
I assume you would disagree with me on this the various legal peeps in their hats who came out with with cleverly crafted and indeed technically correct in a legal sense stuff like "well within the bounds ..." were actually doing no good at all in terms of public image because your ordinary peep on the street sees straight through it.
I think the ordinary people on the street have a lot of sympathy for the McCanns
-
I assume you would disagree with me on this the various legal peeps in their hats who came out with with cleverly crafted and indeed technically correct in a legal sense stuff like "well within the bounds ..." were actually doing no good at all in terms of public image because your ordinary peep on the street sees straight through it.
If, by that, you mean that a proportion of people in the street would place their own, strictly a-legal interpretation, on what those words mean (and thus corrupt the meaning) then I would agree ...
-
All parents should be chained 24/7 to all of their children under 16. That should cover it.
Precisely.
Just so long as you don't go raising awkward questions such as How safe are sleep-starved parents around children ...
-
I think the ordinary people on the street have a lot of sympathy for the McCanns
Social media and the comments sections of daily newspapers seem to suggest otherwise.
-
Social media and the comments sections of daily newspapers seem to suggest otherwise.
You mean that when those of a certain persuasion get word of an article about the McCanns that is allowing comments, they crowd in with their "comments" and "observations"?
There is a certain, ahem, bias in the representation, there.
-
You have your belief and I have mine...could you point out where they went against NSPCC guidelines
Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
Children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
so babies and toddlers cannot sleep in their own room?
Of course not - Nanny is there to look after them. ?{)(**
-
Social media and the comments sections of daily newspapers seem to suggest otherwise.
no its a small group of militant activists...how many supporters has bennetts latest petition got....1700 ish
-
no its a small group of militant activists...how many supporters has bennetts latest petition got....1700 ish
The largest sceptic Facebook group has over 24,000 members. There's simply no arguing with that amount of scepticism.
-
The largest sceptic Facebook group has over 24,000 members. There's simply no arguing with that amount of scepticism.
24000...if they are genuine..out of a 70 million population...strange how only a handful of those members actually post...you might be gullible but I am not
-
If, by that, you mean that a proportion of people in the street would place their own, strictly a-legal interpretation, on what those words mean (and thus corrupt the meaning) then I would agree ...
Every word of phrases such as ".. within the bounds of .." would have been first examined in detail re its exact legal meaning and adjusted to end up with something technically correct. But did they convince even one peep on the street? Yes ordinary peeps corrupt the meaning because they apply a-legal value judgements which fortunately extend far beyond the very narrow bounds of technically correct legalese
-
Every word of phrases such as ".. within the bounds of .." would have been first examined in detail re its exact legal meaning and adjusted to end up with something technically correct. But did they convince even one peep on the street?
I think its totally unimportant and just a stick to beat the McCanns...maddies abduction is enough to make sure parents are more careful
-
I think its totally unimportant and just a stick to beat the McCanns...maddies abduction is enough to make sure parents are more careful
Nothing to do with the parents just wondering whether that legalese stuff by advisors really helped the image or not.
Back to government guidance if they do set a home alone age what age should it be?
-
All parents should be chained 24/7 to all of their children under 16. That should cover it.
Pretty much.
But (and forgive me for jumping on the bandwagon) it might be a good idea not to leave 3 smallies in a strange room when they could wander, scald themselves, mess with electrics, be sick and choke, find the cutlery drawer.
It breaks my heart to think how vulnerable the McCann babies were, and how smug the parents are.
-
24000...if they are genuine..out of a 70 million population...strange how only a handful of those members actually post...you might be gullible but I am not
Actually 24,000 out of an active facebook memberhip of nearly 1.5 billion. In any case how many members are there on the FB OFM page which supports the McCanns' search for Madeleine?
-
24000...if they are genuine..out of a 70 million population...strange how only a handful of those members actually post...you might be gullible but I am not
It would appear that not many of that 24,000 have signed the Petition Bennet has been touting round the forums and sites for weeks. You would think they would be signing it in droves. But then - judging by the numbers - he can't even get half of his own forum membership to sign it.
Not everyone who joins a sceptic site is a sceptic.
-
In fact to put some perspective on the size of the sceptics' facebook campaign, consider its membership size compared to that of a page set up a few months ago called justice For Geist, a dog shot dead by the police in utah which has a membership of nearly 80,000, McCann Sceptics = a very small hill of human beans in the grand scheme of things...
-
Pretty much.
But (and forgive me for jumping on the bandwagon) it might be a good idea not to leave 3 smallies in a strange room when they could wander, scald themselves, mess with electrics, be sick and choke, find the cutlery drawer.
It breaks my heart to think how vulnerable the McCann babies were, and how smug the parents are.
I think your attitude is ridiculous...have a thought for the children of really abusive parents....none of these 20 odd thousand facebook members seem to care about them...its all about bashing the mccanns...your use of the word smug gives your real motive away
-
I think your attitude is ridiculous...have a thought for the children of really abusive parents....none of these 20 odd thousand facebook members seem to care about them...its all about bashing the mccanns...your use of the word smug gives your real motive away
Sorry, I disagree. Three much wanted children, IVF, basically dumped while their parents indulged themselves. And look what happened.
-
Sorry, I disagree. Three much wanted children, IVF, basically dumped while their parents indulged themselves. And look what happened.
So. If they were decent parents, and gave a flying f..k, would they have left 3 smallies to cry? Would you?
-
I think your attitude is ridiculous...have a thought for the children of really abusive parents....none of these 20 odd thousand facebook members seem to care about them...its all about bashing the mccanns...your use of the word smug gives your real motive away
I totally agree. Everyone who has a TV will know that practically every day we see evidence of horrific abuse being perpetrated on children all over the world and also in this country. Little girls being forced into marriage - children being beaten, starved and being regularly abused in their own homes - both phyically and sexually.
And yet we are supposed to believe that leaving your happy, loved and adored children fast asleep in their beds - while you sit 50 metres away from them - far outweighs any of the above truly evil horrors.
What planet are these people on?
-
So. If they were decent parents, and gave a flying f..k, would they have left 3 smallies to cry? Would you?
they are very decent parents
-
So. If they were decent parents, and gave a flying f..k, would they have left 3 smallies to cry? Would you?
did they leave their children crying in their beds when they went for dinner?
-
You have your belief and I have mine...could you point out where they went against NSPCC guidelines
Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
Children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
Babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
so babies and toddlers cannot sleep in their own room?
Yes!
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone/
"There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them".
It seems plain enough advice to me. But of course there will always be a justifiable reason to ignore it in Humpty Dumpty Land
-
I totally agree. Everyone who has a TV will know that practically every day we see evidence of horrific abuse being perpetrated on children all over the world and also in this country. Little girls being forced into marriage - children being beaten, starved and being regularly abused in their own homes - both phyically and sexually.
And yet we are supposed to believe that leaving your happy, loved and adored children fast asleep in their beds - while you sit 50 metres away from them - far outweighs any of the above truly evil horrors.
What planet are these people on?
What planet are you on luv?
Doing something flaky is doing something flaky however you want to dress it up.
Your argument is feeble in the extreme.
-
they are very decent parents
Unfortunately Davel - their name is McCann and for some bizarre reason they are required to be perfect parents at all times. Nothing less will do. Unlike the rest of us - none of the following applies to the McCanns in some sceptics eyes.
'We all make mistakes'.
'No-one is perfect.'
'Human error' is a common flaw in all humans, and no-one is immune from it.
Why the McCanns are excluded from all of the above is totally incomprehensible to me.
-
Yes!
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone/
"There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them".
It seems plain enough advice to me. But of course there will always be a justifiable reason to ignore it in Humpty Dumpty Land
you shouldn't even pop down the road...the mccanns hadn't even popped down the road
-
It would appear that not many of that 24,000 have signed the Petition Bennet has been touting round the forums and sites for weeks. You would think they would be signing it in droves. But then - judging by the numbers - he can't even get half of his own forum membership to sign it.
Not everyone who joins a sceptic site is a sceptic.
Many sceptics, and I include myself in this, can't abide Mr Bennett and, for the record, I haven't signed his petition either.
-
you shouldn't even pop down the road...the mccanns hadn't even popped down the road
To get to the restaurant they walked along an object known as "Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins".
I looked up "Rua" in a dictionary and found it means "road".
I then went there and placed a marble on said road.
The marble rolled in the direction along which they went to get from apartment to restaurant.
Consulting a textbook on marbles I found that this type of slope is referred to even by lawyers as "down".
Placing the two words together and inserting the word "the" in the middle I arrived at the phrase
"down the road".
-
To get to the restaurant they walked along an object known as "Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins".
I looked up "Rua" in a dictionary and found it means "road".
I then went there and placed a marble on said road.
The marble rolled in the direction along which they went to get from apartment to restaurant.
Consulting a textbook on marbles I found that this type of slope is referred to even by lawyers as "down".
Placing the two words together and inserting the word "the" in the middle I arrived at the phrase
"down the road".
Just 50 metres away and in sight of the apartment patio wondow which was illuminated.
Like being in a longer than average prewar detached house back garden.
-
Just 50 metres away and in sight of the apartment patio wondow which was illuminated.
Like being in a longer than average prewar detached house back garden.
I don't think most people sitting in their back garden would tend to sit as far away from the house as possible?
-
Just 50 metres away and in sight of the apartment patio wondow which was illuminated.
Like being in a longer than average prewar detached house back garden.
Here we go again.
Fantasy land.
-
I don't think most people sitting in their back garden would tend to sit as far away from the house as possible?
You would if you had a summer house - they are invariably positioned at the very end of the garden - from where you can sit and look back over your whole garden - and wonder why the hell you decided to buy a house with such a long, time-consuming, back-breaking garden! I speak from experience.
-
Yes!
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/leaving-child-home-alone/
"There might not be a specific legal age to leave children alone but it’s safe to say babies, toddlers and young children should never be left alone, even if it’s just while you pop down the road. Even if they’re sleeping peacefully when you leave they could well wake up and get very upset when you’re not there to look after them".
It seems plain enough advice to me. But of course there will always be a justifiable reason to ignore it in Humpty Dumpty Land
seems like the NSPCC agree with me and the McCanns...sleeping children are at risk from waking and being upset...not from abductors or fatal accidents
-
seems like the NSPCC agree with me and the McCanns...sleeping children are at risk from waking and being upset...not from abductors or fatal accidents
Read all the NSPCC guidelines again.
It might help.
-
Read all the NSPCC guidelines again.
It might help.
The NSPCC urged it to take the opportunity to remove the legal defence of "reasonable chastisement" that enabled parents to smack their children without fear of prosecution for assault.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-196051/NSPCC-calls-smacking-ban.html#ixzz3JsiXRkHd
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
I don't think the NSPCC are quite the experts some of you imagine...they need to concentrate on the children who are really at risk
-
so anyone on here who has smacked their children would be labelled a criminal if the NSPCC had their way...and many here seem to think they are the experts
-
so anyone on here who has smacked their children would be labelled a criminal if the NSPCC had their way...and many here seem to think they are the experts
What has this got to do with leaving very young children by themselves, unprotected, whilst the parents go out boozing and eating ?
-
What has this got to do with leaving very young children by themselves, unprotected, whilst the parents go out boozing and eating ?
what has parents going out boozing and eating got to do with this thread
-
what has parents going out boozing and eating got to do with this thread
Well as you said the other day, these threads relate to the mccanns. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
-
Well as you said the other day, these threads relate to the mccanns. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
and what has going out boozing got to do with the mccanns
-
and what has going out boozing got to do with the mccanns
Have you forgotten dave, so soon ? 8)--))
-
You have made the usual mistake of quoting the figures for accidents when we are discussing fatal accidents..we all know that falls are the most common accidents but are rarely fatal...fires are a different matter
You obviously didnt read it. TEN CHILDREN DIE EVERY YEAR IN THE UK falling off balconies, and out of windows and down stairs.....so why cant Madeliene be in the 10 children then, she could have fallen down the outside stairs, out of a window, or off a settee. TEN CHILDREN DAVEL....please read the post....thank you so kindly.
-
You obviously didnt read it. TEN CHILDREN DIE EVERY YEAR IN THE UK falling off balconies, and out of windows and down stairs.....so why cant Madeliene be in the 10 children then, she could have fallen down the outside stairs, out of a window, or off a settee. TEN CHILDREN DAVEL....please read the post....thank you so kindly.
Not only have I read the post I have quoted it several times in the past....no stairs in the apartment...no upstairs windows...I accept it is a remote possibility that Maddie exited the apartment and fell down the outside stairs....I think someone would have noticed..
I do notice that YOU have added off a sofa to the NSPCC guidelines..ridiculous beyond belief......no child anywhere in the world has ever died from falling off a sofa
-
seems like the NSPCC agree with me and the McCanns...sleeping children are at risk from waking and being upset...not from abductors or fatal accidents
Extending your argument then as there was no risk from abduction there could not have been one 8(>((
You are wriggling again sunshine and it is a joy to witness it 8(0(*
-
Extending your argument then as there was no risk from abduction there could not have been one 8(>((
You are wriggling again sunshine and it is a joy to witness it 8(0(*
you must learn about context......it seems it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with any of the [ censored word] on here...I wonder why...I think I make a very good point that when discussing popping to the shops the NSPCC list the only harm the child may come to as waking and crying...as your claim that the NSPCC are the experts we should all listen to I think you should note that if you have ever smacked your child the NSPCC would like to label you a criminal...you may regard the NSPCCC as experts and need them to tell you exactly how you should raise your child...I don't
-
you must learn about context......it seems it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with any of the [ censored word] on here...I wonder why...I think I make a very good point that when discussing popping to the shops the NSPCC list the only harm the child may come to as waking and crying...as your claim that the NSPCC are the experts we should all listen to I think you should note that if you have ever smacked your child the NSPCC would like to label you a criminal...you may regard the NSPCCC as experts and need them to tell you exactly how you should raise your child...I don't
http://www.medhelp.org/general-health/articles/The-25-Most-Common-Causes-of-Death/193
#18: Fall involving bed, chair or other furniture
Odds of dying: 1 in 4,238
Beds, couches and furniture exist in our homes to provide personal comfort and relaxation, but they are associated with death far more often than most would think. Falls are the leading cause of death among people over the age of 65. A person is far more likely to die falling out of bed, a chair or other furniture at home than traveling on a railway, where the odds are 1 in 225,879.
-
http://www.medhelp.org/general-health/articles/The-25-Most-Common-Causes-of-Death/193
#18: Fall involving bed, chair or other furniture
Odds of dying: 1 in 4,238
Beds, couches and furniture exist in our homes to provide personal comfort and relaxation, but they are associated with death far more often than most would think. Falls are the leading cause of death among people over the age of 65. A person is far more likely to die falling out of bed, a chair or other furniture at home than traveling on a railway, where the odds are 1 in 225,879.
65?
-
65?
I think this is the point '. A person is far more likely to die falling out of bed, a chair or other furniture at home than traveling on a railway, where the odds are 1 in 225,879.'
Being over 65 you are simply more likely to die from a fall than, say, a three year old.
-
I think this is the point '. A person is far more likely to die falling out of bed, a chair or other furniture at home than traveling on a railway, where the odds are 1 in 225,879.'
Being over 65 you are simply more likely to die from a fall than, say, a three year old.
Showing a high degree of ignorance as usual...do you know why over 65s die from relatively minor falls...fractured pelvis
-
Showing a high degree of ignorance as usual...do you know why over 65s die from relatively minor falls...fractured pelvis
The point is people do die falling from furniture, including sofas.
-
The point is people do die falling from furniture, including sofas.
children don't ..old people do
-
children don't ..old people do
That's not what the statistics say. Elderly people are more likely to die from falls than anything else but death from falls within the general population happen, though less frequently than with older people.
-
children don't ..old people do
children can and do die from falls and anything else
-
That's not what the statistics say. Elderly people are more likely to die from falls than anything else but death from falls within the general population happen, though less frequently than with older people.
children have also died from tv sets falling on them
-
That's not what the statistics say. Elderly people are more likely to die from falls than anything else but death from falls within the general population happen, though less frequently than with older people.
give me one example anywhere in the world of a child dying as a result of a fall from a chair or sofa..this is the standard of logic you are using...no wonder you and others have got everything wrong
-
give me one example anywhere in the world of a child dying as a result of a fall from a chair or sofa..this is the standard of logic you are using...no wonder you and others have got everything wrong
Statistics tell you it happens. That individual cases are not reported in the media etc is neither here nor there.
-
give me one example anywhere in the world of a child dying as a result of a fall from a chair or sofa..this is the standard of logic you are using...no wonder you and others have got everything wrong
davel im not being mean but the sad reality is that children DO die of household accidents and you deny it everytime why??? children die everyday of all kinds of things you have to face it
-
Statistics tell you it happens. That individual cases are not reported in the media etc is neither here nor there.
small children have fragile skulls any fall can fracture their skull
-
There's a big difference between falling on carpet/wooden floor and concrete for obvious reasons. If any young child fell from the sofa in 5A then they were landing on hard tiles not carpet. A head first fall could be fatal.
-
There's a big difference between falling on carpet/wooden floor and concrete for obvious reasons. If any young child fell from the sofa in 5A then they were landing on hard tiles not carpet. A head first fall could be fatal.
sorry doctor you are quite wrong...it has never happened....
-
Statistics tell you it happens. That individual cases are not reported in the media etc is neither here nor there.
Statistics tell you abductions happen.
But you seem quite keen to discount that.
-
sorry doctor you are quite wrong...it has never happened....
Young children falling head first onto concrete and dying has never happened? You are wrong.
-
small children have fragile skulls any fall can fracture their skull
Would not be fatal.....it has never happened
-
Statistics tell you it happens. That individual cases are not reported in the media etc is neither here nor there.
probably covered up by the same people who are protecting the mccanns..so all the other fatal accidents are reported...but the ones due to falls from sofas are not...
-
Would not be fatal.....it has never happened
how do you know???
-
Statistics tell you abductions happen.
But you seem quite keen to discount that.
No one is saying abductions don't happen, simply that it didn't in this instance.
-
No one is saying abductions don't happen, simply that it didn't in this instance.
How do you know?
-
to be honest i dont know if davel is just a troll or if he really believes a child falling on their head on tiles smashing their head couldnt die?? children sadly die in accidents all the time but everytime this comes up davel says it doesnt happen?
-
How do you know?
I weigh up the evidence and form an opinion. Isn't that what you do ?
-
I weigh up the evidence and form an opinion. Isn't that what you do ?
dont forget unless we think gerry and kate are saints we are not allowed our opinion we are called trolls
-
to be honest i dont know if davel is just a troll or if he really believes a child falling on their head on tiles smashing their head couldnt die?? children sadly die in accidents all the time but everytime this comes up davel says it doesnt happen?
Davel has worked in casualty..he knows what he is talking about...no child has ever died after falling from a sofa..fact
-
Young children falling head first onto concrete and dying has never happened? You are wrong.
outside ..from a reasonable height..yes..but it has never happened inside
-
Davel has worked in casualty..he knows what he is talking about...no child has ever died after falling from a sofa..fact
why are you talking in 3rd person??
-
Davel has worked in casualty..he knows what he is talking about...no child has ever died after falling from a sofa..fact
Is this the davel who worked in casualty in the Birmingham Pub bombings over 40 years ago ?
and how do you know a child has not died as a result of falling off a sofa onto a concrete floor ?
-
why are you talking in 3rd person??
Indeed. *&*%£
-
Is this the davel who worked in casualty in the Birmingham Pub bombings over 40 years ago ?
and how do you know a child has not died as a result of falling off a sofa onto a concrete floor ?
yes ..it was the anniversary on thursday..radio WM did programme interviewing victims and police...quite harrowing
-
Is this the davel who worked in casualty in the Birmingham Pub bombings over 40 years ago ?
and how do you know a child has not died as a result of falling off a sofa onto a concrete floor ?
the home is the biggest danger to a toddler ( that includes hotel rooms) because toddlers are inpulsive and have no sense of danger thats why it is the parents job to supervise them
-
yes ..it was the anniversary on thursday..radio WM did programme interviewing victims and police...quite harrowing
More harrowing is the 21 who will never gain justice because the authorities refused to act on information received.
-
More harrowing is the 21 who will never gain justice because the authorities refused to act on information received.
there's never been an inquest...strange...40 yrs anniversary this week
-
I left two children in the house for 10 minutes this morning...aged 11 and 9...should I be arrested
-
I left two children in the house for 10 minutes this morning...aged 11 and 9...should I be arrested
That's nothing. I left 2 children under 16 in the house alone for 6 hours - I can hear the sirens approaching as I type...
-
I leave my baby alone sometimes, and she howls like a banshee. Especially first thing in the morning when I refuse to get up and feed her.
-
I leave my baby alone sometimes, and she howls like a banshee. Especially first thing in the morning when I refuse to get up and feed her.
Would that be the one you purchased from Argos Eleanor ?
-
Would that be the one you purchased from Argos Eleanor ?
No. I got her for free. But I never lock her in a shed like her previous mummy did.
-
No. I got her for free. But I never lock her in a shed like her previous mummy did.
Which is to your eternal credit Eleanor.
-
Which is to your eternal credit Eleanor.
Thank you, Faith.
-
I left two children in the house for 10 minutes this morning...aged 11 and 9...should I be arrested
No.
Would you have done the same thing 7 years ago?
-
For you Davel, with thanks to watcher from Amazon.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Baby+died+after+fall+from+sofa.-a0141392345
-
For you Davel, with thanks to watcher from Amazon.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Baby+died+after+fall+from+sofa.-a0141392345
It will be wrong/not applicable/randomly discounted [delete as applicable]; just you wait and see.
This next response will be a stunner mark my words Faithlilly.
As I have said on numerous occasions it is better then The Comedy Store; John should sell it at entertainment.
-
I left two children in the house for 10 minutes this morning...aged 11 and 9...should I be arrested
Here are some points/questions from another poster you might consider, by the application of logic and reasoning....
' A) Children are indeed damaged more quickly than adults as the bones etc are not fully formed for some years. eg breaks of the bones in the limbs are usually green stick fractures rather than clean breaks
B) Why on about deaths from falls - isn't the possibility of falls enough for parents not to put their children in danger? eg a fall on the head can easily cause brain damage
c) Have you worked in every A&E in the country , constantly for many years to know that death from a fall never happens for a child? And anyway Children's A&E and the ordinary A&E are different '
-
For you Davel ...
Trying to help you out here dave1 - you could try "nowhere does it state the sofa was indoors" ?
And BTW here's another sad case
http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/baby-dies-after-fall
-
For you Davel, with thanks to watcher from Amazon.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Baby+died+after+fall+from+sofa.-a0141392345
So the baby didn't die immediately...as I would have predicted....died later in hospital. So if maddie had fractured her skull are you suggesting her parents would not have taken her to hospital
-
Trying to help you out here dave1 - you could try "nowhere does it state the sofa was indoors" ?
And BTW here's another sad case
http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/baby-dies-after-fall
so again baby died later..if maddie had fractured her skull the mccanns would have sought immediate surgery knowing it would save her life
-
For you Davel, with thanks to watcher from Amazon.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Baby+died+after+fall+from+sofa.-a0141392345
Thanks for that.
davel gets it wrong.
-
Calpol dash was ‘child neglect’
Sian Griffiths, Education Editor Published: 23 November 2014
Comment (54) Print
Tim and Julie Haines with Iset, left, and Kiya, two of their five children (Adrian Sherratt)
A FAMILY came “within a hair’s breadth” of having their five children taken into care after the father was prosecuted for leaving their two-year-old daughter alone in the car for 10 minutes.
Tim Haines left his daughter outside a chemist in Evesham, Worcestershire, while he went to buy Calpol.
He returned to find two policeman by the car who said he should not have left the toddler alone. He was charged with child neglect and his children placed on a protection register.
It took a year to clear Haines’s name in court and to lift the threat of having the children removed. “We won, but we came within a hair’s breadth of losing our children,” said his wife, Julie.
The family have decided to speak out following the case of a mother in the West Midlands who was given a caution for leaving her six-year-old son alone for 45 minutes.
The government is facing calls to pass a “home alone” law that will make clear at what age and for how long children can be left unattended.
Back in 2004 when Haines parked on Evesham High Street, he could little have imagined the nightmare that was to follow. Returning from the school run, he remembered the family had run out of Calpol. After stopping close to a chemist’s, he dashed into the store without his daughter, Iset, whom he left in the car.
He returned less than 10 minutes later to be confronted by two police officers while Iset was standing happily on the driver’s seat. “They gave me all sorts of grief about leaving my daughter alone in the car, said I had bald tyres and refused to let me drive it, so I walked home with Iset in my arms,” said Haines. “I thought that was the end of it but a few weeks later there was a knock at the door and there were two policemen there to arrest me.”
Haines, who is a family law advocate, was prosecuted for “wilful exposure of a child to risk of significant harm”; the children were placed on the child protection register; and the couple then had a “nightmare year” fighting to clear Haines’s name and save their family.
The family spoke out this weekend after reading in The Sunday Times about Joan, who is battling to get a caution for child neglect removed from her record after she left her son home alone while she had a driving lesson.
As a result of these cases and others, the government is being pressed to pass a “home alone” law setting out clear guidelines governing at what age and for how long children can be left unattended. Currently the law says only that parents should not leave children alone if they will be placed at risk, but there is no minimum age.
Earlier this month John Hemming, the Liberal Democrat MP for Birmingham Yardley, tabled a parliamentary question seeking clarity. He said: “It is not at all clear for how long and at what age children can be left alone. Nor is it clear whether leaving them alone is either not an issue, a child-protection issue or a criminal issue.”
The Haines’s nightmare ended only in the summer of 2005 — almost a year after Haines had left his daughter in the car — when the couple succeeded in getting the children’s names removed from the child protection register.
By then Haines had had his conviction overturned on appeal. A district judge in the magistrates’ court had initially found him guilty of the offence of wilful exposure. He was given an absolute discharge.
“I was not happy to have an offence of child cruelty on my record so I appealed to the Crown Court. The prosecution offered no evidence and the court struck the matter out. Hearing what I had done, the judge said: ‘Is that supposed to be a crime?’ ” said Haines.
Iset as a toddler
Every step of the way the family also battled social services, which had placed the children on the child protection register after the incident. Eventually the family courts ordered the children to be assessed by an independent social worker, who gave the Haines’s parenting a clean bill of health.
“I was sick with anxiety the entire time the children’s names were on the register,” said Julie Haines. “Social services sent us five care plans for each of our kids. I ripped them up and pushed them back under the social services office door. We wrote our own plans and submitted them to the family courts. They weren’t used to dealing with articulate middle-class people. I feel very lucky. We could easily have lost our kids.”
Four out of five of the Haines’s children were cathedral choristers; two are now at university while the other three are still at school. “They are great kids and we are good parents,” said Haines.
Julie Haines added: “My view is that parents have to be allowed to assess the risk themselves. All of us have left children home alone at some point. Technically, you are presumably not even allowed to leave a child in a car at a petrol station while you go to pay but everyone does.”
The Sunday Times story two weeks ago about Joan and her six-year-old son prompted a national debate on the age at which it is reasonable for a child to be left alone. Justine Roberts, chief executive of the Mumsnet online parenting forum, said: “The consensus [on Mumsnet] is that it really comes down to the individual child.”
The Department for Education said: “The law is clear that parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health.”
West Mercia police said it had a duty to investigate all concerns regarding the care of children. Worcestershire county council said any child protection case took “account of all the facts and opinions of professionals and the family”.
-
Thanks for that.
davel gets it wrong.
not at all...we have been through all this before...a fractured skull would require immediate hospital admission...maddie never fractured her skull in a fall
-
not at all...we have been through all this before...a fractured skull would require immediate hospital admission...maddie never fractured her skull in a fall
How do you know what happened to Madeleine ?
Where you there ?
Now if she had an accident and they weren't there..........
-
Lest we all forget what the "Wrigglemeister" posted sometime just after 14:00 ish
Davel has worked in casualty..he knows what he is talking about...no child has ever died after falling from a sofa..fact
Perhaps he would like to advise the forum on which definition of the word after he relies?
-
not at all...we have been through all this before...a fractured skull would require immediate hospital admission...maddie never fractured her skull in a fall
The two cases posted involved a carer being at the same address as the sofa or bed.
-
Lest we all forget what the "Wrigglemeister" posted sometime just after 14:00 ish
Davel has worked in casualty..he knows what he is talking about...no child has ever died after falling from a sofa..fact
Perhaps he would like to advise the forum on which definition of the word after he relies?
Both babies did not die after falling from the sofa...both died later..
-
Both babies did not die after falling from the sofa...both died later..
This is the oddest argument I ever had since one with world expert Barnard last century.
So how many minutes long is your new definition of "after" may I ask?
-
This is the oddest argument I ever had since one with world expert Barnard last century.
So how many minutes long is your new definition of "after" may I ask?
apart from something like a car crash...death from a fractured skull due to a fall would take approx. 24 hrs...maddie did not die in the apartment from a fractured skull...thats probably why SY are not considering it.
You don't have to take my word for it...do some research
-
@dave1. Barnard double-charged me but it was very good value. Glad I'm not paying for this one.
I suppose it's foolish to ask again: how many minutes fits your idea of "after".
-
The best thing would be to tell the lawyers to 101% disappear, acknowledge outright it is unfair to leave toddlers home alone while you go to a restuarant, and then do work ensuring other parents are fully aware that they should not do it. All these clever lawyers and PR peeps starting with the paid peeps going out and sitting at the same table and saying "oh yeah that looks fine I would do it" are doing a huge disservice by denying the right to simply a real sorry (and that means one which no lawyer nor PR peep has even looked at it) .
-
.... are you suggesting her parents would not have taken her to hospital
No-one is suggesting that, but this highlights that every brit tourist really should learn the emergency number of their holiday country.
-
No-one is suggesting that, but this highlights that every brit tourist really should learn the emergency number of their holiday country.
Well I certainly had no idea of the Emergency No to ring abroad until I read it on here. But now I do - and maybe others do too. So there you go - every cloud etc etc.
-
Both babies did not die after falling from the sofa...both died later..
First you deny any such accident has ever happened.
Then evidence is provided it has.
What kind of fool does that make you ?
-
The best thing would be to tell the lawyers to 101% disappear, acknowledge outright it is unfair to leave toddlers home alone while you go to a restuarant, and then do work ensuring other parents are fully aware that they should not do it. All these clever lawyers and PR peeps starting with the paid peeps going out and sitting at the same table and saying "oh yeah that looks fine I would do it" are doing a huge disservice by denying the right to simply a real sorry (and that means one which no lawyer nor PR peep has even looked at it) .
Excellent post.
-
IMO, if Madeleine DID have a fall from the sofa [which I don't think she did] and she was dead when the McCann's found her, I really don't think they would have covered it up and hid Madeleine's body.
Why would they do that?
-
Okay. That's it.
-
IMO, if Madeleine DID have a fall from the sofa [which I don't think she did] and she was dead when the McCann's found her, I really don't think they would have covered it up and hid Madeleine's body.
Why would they do that?
Agreed, and that is quite simply where 99.9% of concealment posts fall down, such a conspiracy would never happen.
Back to government guidelines, should they state guide ages for things like leaving home alone?
-
Agreed, and that is quite simply where 99.9% of concealment posts fall down, such a conspiracy would never happen.
Back to government guidelines, should they state guide ages for things like leaving home alone?
The reason they do not is because it is not a problem...how many children every year are injured through being left alone...it is not a problem
-
The reason they do not is because it is not a problem...how many children every year are injured through being left alone...it is not a problem
Simply untrue.
What is your take on the Steamboat Springs case?
-
@dave1
I think the firefighters at Steamboat Island would be rather upset by your "not a problem" statement.
Look it up.
San Benito - look that up too.
BTW - here is some excellent advice from another thread
Do a bit of research before you make such a fool of yourself.........
-
@dave1
I think the firefighters at Steamboat Island would be rather upset by your "not a problem" statement.
Look it up.
San Benito - look that up too.
BTW - here is some excellent advice from another thread
so you think the uk govt should base its law on what happens outside the uk....do some research before you make a fool of yourself...the simple fact you have to quote cases outside the uk shows its not a problem here..but perhaps you are too ...........to understand that
-
so you think the uk govt should base its law on what happens outside the uk....do some research before you make a fool of yourself...the simple fact you have to quote cases outside the uk shows its not a problem here..but perhaps you are too ...........to understand that
Sorry I did not realise you were referring to UK only.
BTW for the next case just a preliminary check, do you agree that Bradford is in the UK?
-
Sorry I did not realise you were referring to UK only.
BTW for the next case just a preliminary check, do you agree that Bradford is in the UK?
uk govt...uk law...do your research before making a fool of yourself
-
...do your research ...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/202324/Baby-dies-in-fire-after-being-left-home-alone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7926167.stm
-
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/202324/Baby-dies-in-fire-after-being-left-home-alone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7926167.stm
davel is invariably a bit slow on the uptake.
-
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/202324/Baby-dies-in-fire-after-being-left-home-alone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7926167.stm
so two cases in 5 years...one every 2.5 yrs...yet young men are being stabbed weekly but no new legislation on knife crime
-
davel is invariably a bit slow on the uptake.
the idoit is back...2 cases in 5 years...proves my point
-
so two cases in 5 years...one every 2.5 yrs...yet young men are being stabbed weekly but no new legislation on knife crime
Why would they need new legislation when they can't enforce existing knife laws.
-
@dave1 might be a good idea to avoid going into either of those two fire stations with "its not a problem" and "it never happens".
-
@dave1 might be a good idea to avoid going into either of those two fire stations with "its not a problem" and "it never happens".
twice in 5 yrs..the question is would legislation have prevented these deaths
-
Why would they need new legislation when they can't enforce existing knife laws.
You could ask the same question about pretty much any new proposed legislation.
-
You could ask the same question about pretty much any new proposed legislation.
both these deaths were due to electrical appliance faults which cause death whether children are left alone or not..the lesson is don't leave appliances plugged in...particularly 13 amp appliances plugged into extensions...perhaps Pegasus thinks new laws should be brought in to prevent this
-
twice in 5 yrs..the question is would legislation have prevented these deaths
Possibly yes. If people hear on TV that there is a new law making it illegal to leave kids under 4 at home alone, it will reduce the number of people who do so. In both those UK cases the child would have been unhurt if the parent had not gone out.
-
Possibly yes. If people hear on TV that there is a new law making it illegal to leave kids under 4 at home alone, it will reduce the number of people who do so. In both those UK cases the child would have been unhurt if the parent had not gone out.
playing devils advocate the two cases quoted by you are 10 and 22 months....the only children hurt in recent history...why have you set your law at 4
-
Possibly yes. If people hear on TV that there is a new law making it illegal to leave kids under 4 at home alone, it will reduce the number of people who do so. In both those UK cases the child would have been unhurt if the parent had not gone out.
One of those women went to jail anyway so how would a new law have made any difference to her behaviour? Do you seriously think the woman who abandoned her kids to fly to Australia would not have done so if a new law was passed making it illegal to leave young kids alone?
-
One of those women went to jail anyway so how would a new law have made any difference to her behaviour? Do you seriously think the woman who abandoned her kids to fly to Australia would not have done so if a new law was passed making it illegal to leave young kids alone?
I think she would have still gone and paid the 60 pound fine
-
You can argue against any law by saying some people will do it whether its illegal or not.
-
playing devils advocate the two cases quoted by you are 10 and 22 months....the only children hurt in recent history...why have you set your law at 4
Because of a naive assumption that that no-one would claim that is too high.
-
the idoit is back...2 cases in 5 years...proves my point
You said these things don't happen.
They do.
By the way, try using spell checker or the equivalent when you type such words as 'idoit' 8)-)))
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
-
Because of a naive assumption that that no-one would claim that is too high.
so your law would not apply to 5 yr olds
-
Possibly yes. If people hear on TV that there is a new law making it illegal to leave kids under 4 at home alone, it will reduce the number of people who do so. In both those UK cases the child would have been unhurt if the parent had not gone out.
...and people who hear on TV that it is within the bounds etc etc etc, will to notice of that too. Not good.
-
so your law would not apply to 5 yr olds
I gave a low example to encourage debate.
Stating a specific age is difficult because whatever age is chosen it would sort of imply its ok over that age which it may not be.
IMO some well researched and well written official guidelines with a large publicity drive (TV and newspapers) would be better than a law.
Guidelines and information about the possible risks, for example blind cords, falling furniture, plastic bags, and so on.