Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on June 01, 2017, 03:04:33 PM
Title: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Admin on June 01, 2017, 03:04:33 PM
Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
This issue appears to have unsettled members so instead of bashing each other across the threads and effectively causing disruption and extra work for the moderators and editors, let us discuss it here.
Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
This issue appears to have unsettled members so instead of bashing each other across the threads and effectively causing disruption and extra work for the moderators and editors, let us discuss it here.
On what basis is Rowley making this claim?
Were his words badly chosen?
Should he clarify his position?
There is nothing (in the files available publicly) to gainsay abduction, and evidently nothing in the information available to Mark Rowley (who knows more than we do) to gainsay ABDUCTION.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 03:16:36 PM
So the answer to the question is NO
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 03:20:47 PM
Trouble is Rowley tied himself up in so many knots imo he forgot what he had said,this is from earlier in the broadcast,question to and answer from Rowley.
Quote
Q: You’ve described it as a ‘unique’ case. Why is it unique? MR: I think it’s unique in two or three respects. First of all the way its captured attention in different countries is quite unusual. You’ll get a very high-profile case in a particular country, the way it has captured interest across countries, I think is significant. The length of it. And it’s unusual to have a case like this where you’re doing a missing persons investigation, where ten years on, we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened. And that’s why we’re open minded, even if we have to be pessimistic about the prospects, we are open minded because we don’t have definitive evidence about what happened to Madeleine.
So if there is no definitive evidence how can he claim there was an abduction?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 03:26:24 PM
Trouble is Rowley tied himself up in so many knots imo he forgot what he had said,this is from earlier in the broadcast,question to and answer from Rowley.
So if there is no definitive evidence how can he claim there was an abduction?
Is Madeleine alive or dead?
Is she being held captive somewhere against her will?
Those are the questions the shelved enquiry couldn't answer.
(At least some of us) hope Operation Grange will.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 03:30:10 PM
Is she being held captive somewhere against her will?
Those are the questions the shelved enquiry couldn't answer.
(At least some of us) hope Operation Grange will.
Break down what Rowley said which is what the thread is about,look at the quoted piece I used,
Quote
Q: You’ve described it as a ‘unique’ case. Why is it unique? MR: I think it’s unique in two or three respects. First of all the way its captured attention in different countries is quite unusual. You’ll get a very high-profile case in a particular country, the way it has captured interest across countries, I think is significant. The length of it. And it’s unusual to have a case like this where you’re doing a missing persons investigation, where ten years on, we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened. And that’s why we’re open minded, even if we have to be pessimistic about the prospects, we are open minded because we don’t have definitive evidence about what happened to Madeleine.
Having said this how could he then go on to claim abduction?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 03:30:40 PM
quite simply.....the archiving report for reasons we do not know...practically ruled out woke and wandered...perhaps teh portuguse should have shared their reasoning. The fact is they said it was highly unlikely and they had all the evidence. Posters here claiming it should remeber this.
It seems both the current portuguese and Sy do not consider that the McCanns were involved...that appears to be clear
that leaves abduction.....This is what i have been saying for several years and it looks as though both the portuguese and SY agree wiyh my logic
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Admin on June 01, 2017, 03:30:46 PM
Trouble is Rowley tied himself up in so many knots imo he forgot what he had said,this is from earlier in the broadcast,question to and answer from Rowley.
So if there is no definitive evidence how can he claim there was an abduction?
For Rowley to state that "all options were open" and follow it with "Madeleine was abducted" was a significant folly.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 03:38:57 PM
Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
This issue appears to have unsettled members so instead of bashing each other across the threads and effectively causing disruption and extra work for the moderators and editors, let us discuss it here.
On what basis is Rowley making this claim?
Were his words badly chosen?
Should he clarify his position?
In my view Mark Rowley merely offered an opinion in stating that whichever way the child left the apartment she was abducted, I also believe he was very foolish to state what he did when the forensics tell a different story. His remark suggesting the child wasn't old enough to leave home and set up somewhere on her own says it all really imo. He clearly forgot that the child could have left the apartment of her own choosing and been abducted from the street outside.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: sadie on June 01, 2017, 03:51:01 PM
In my view Mark Rowley merely offered an opinion in stating that whichever way the child left the apartment she was abducted, I also believe he was very foolish to state what he did when the forensics tell a different story. His remark suggesting the child wasn't old enough to leave home and set up somewhere on her own says it all really imo. He clearly forgot that the child could have left the apartment of her own choosing and been abducted from the street outside.
Maybe, Operation Grange KNOW who did it ... but are NOT yet able to reveal anything.
Have you thought of that John ?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 04:05:41 PM
In my view Mark Rowley merely offered an opinion in stating that whichever way the child left the apartment she was abducted, I also believe he was very foolish to state what he did when the forensics tell a different story. His remark suggesting the child wasn't old enough to leave home and set up somewhere on her own says it all really imo. He clearly forgot that the child could have left the apartment of her own choosing and been abducted from the street outside.
it seems that the archiving report has reasons that rule out woke and wandered.....and they have more information tahn we do
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 04:09:44 PM
So would you agree then that SY never went back to the very beginning their beginning started at the archival.
I never mention SY in my post...it is my belief taht SY have considered all the evidence...have interviwed the mccanns...and come to the conclusion that maddie was abducted
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 04:21:44 PM
I never mention SY in my post...it is my belief taht SY have considered all the evidence...have interviwed the mccanns...and come to the conclusion that maddie was abducted
Rowley clearly tells us they have no definitive evidence.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 04:26:06 PM
Trouble is Rowley tied himself up in so many knots imo he forgot what he had said,this is from earlier in the broadcast,question to and answer from Rowley.
Quote
Q: You’ve described it as a ‘unique’ case. Why is it unique?
MR: I think it’s unique in two or three respects. First of all the way its captured attention in different countries is quite unusual. You’ll get a very high-profile case in a particular country, the way it has captured interest across countries, I think is significant.
The length of it.
And it’s unusual to have a case like this where you’re doing a missing persons investigation, where ten years on, we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened. And that’s why we’re open minded, even if we have to be pessimistic about the prospects, we are open minded because we don’t have definitive evidence about what happened to Madeleine. End quote
So if there is no definitive evidence how can he claim there was an abduction?
Scotland Yard began a review of Madeleine McCann's case in 2011 at the behest of the then Home Secretary.
After two years of reviewing all the available information and evidence from 2007 at a cost of nearly five million pounds the recommendation was made in 2013 that sufficient evidence had been uncovered to justify reopening Madeleine McCann's case as a full blown criminal inquiry.
A two year investigation resulted in one hundred and ninety five new leads into what might have happened to Madeleine as well as revealing twenty persons of interest who might have had information about her case. Having uncovered this plethora of new information over that two year period it surely stands to reason that many other avenues were followed, eliminated and discarded ~ among which were the allegations concerning her parents and their holiday companions.
The review apparently did not theorise ... the review followed evidence. That evidence eliminated a great deal of material and suggested further avenues for investigation and twenty people the police needed to speak to.
I suggest that Senior Police Officers such as Scotland Yard's Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley, will be conversant with all of that ... and if Mr Rowley and his team are of the opinion Madeleine was abducted and is prepared to state so on record, that is good enough for me.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Met's Portuguese 'partners in crime' the PJ, had their eye on and investigated Madeleine's abduction by stranger ... and they arrived at that after their own independent review which led to their own reopening of the case.
So however one cares to refer to Madeleine's disappearance ... it appears the unbiased professionals actually doing the investigation have no doubt there is a presumptive stranger abduction well in the mix.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
Makes it more a fact than opinion. The fact that he has more of the facts than anyone on here means he knows more of the facts and therefore he can say Madeleine was abducted..............in my opinion
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 05:36:18 PM
what is hypocritical of some posters is that amaral has been saying as a fact for almost 10 yeras that maddie died in the apartment....he has said the children were sedated every night with calpol, of that there is no doubt...and those statemnts have been allowed to be expressed by him. yet when rowley says Maddie was abducted...all hell breaks loose
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2017, 05:37:13 PM
In my opinion, Scotland Yard's Assistant Commissioner, Mark Rowley, has based his public statement on the work carried out by the PJ and the Portuguese prosecutors, various private investigators employed by Madeleine's Fund and on the two year review carried out by SY and the work which has been carried out since. That makes ten years of information.
Pejorative leaks emanating from police sources were hitting the Portuguese press in the days after Madeleine's disappearance and are still being promoted by the former case coordinator.
I'll go with the unbiased current thinking using the latest information to hand in preference to rumour and misrepresentation of the past.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 05:43:37 PM
what is hypocritical of some posters is that amaral has been saying as a fact for almost 10 yeras that maddie died in the apartment....he has said the children were sedated every night with calpol, of that there is no doubt...and those statemnts have been allowed to be expressed by him. yet when rowley says Maddie was abducted...all hell breaks loose
Indeed.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2017, 05:45:08 PM
what is hypocritical of some posters is that amaral has been saying as a fact for almost 10 yeras that maddie died in the apartment....he has said the children were sedated every night with calpol, of that there is no doubt...and those statemnts have been allowed to be expressed by him. yet when rowley says Maddie was abducted...all hell breaks loose
It is very clear cut that how Madeleine disappeared from the apartment has not been determined, either by Rowley or Amaral.
IMO, as I have said before, barring a confession, that will remain the case.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
It is very clear cut that how Madeleine disappeared from the apartment has not been determined, either by Rowley or Amaral.
IMO, as I have said before, barring a confession, that will remain the case.
But Amaral's words and video are on this forum without any objection, no qualifying of his words with "alledged"" in his opinion" "seems to" but Rowley's statement that Madeleine was abducted has to be subjected to "in his opinion". Why?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 05:53:26 PM
The role of Assistant Commissioner places you at the forefront of our organisation. From here, you’ll shape strategic direction and the delivery of policing, as part of our Management Board.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:07:14 PM
No, fact. He and SY have nothing to show for the £11 million, money which could have been better spent in London.
You do not know that for a FACT. So it is in your opinion.
Why London?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 01, 2017, 06:07:50 PM
It's quite simple really. Anyone posting Amaral's theory as fact in the past would be sanctioned. The McCann's theory has been repeatedly posted as fact without being sanctioned. Neither theory has been proved to be correct so both should be discussed under the same rules.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 06:08:32 PM
It's quite simple really. Anyone posting Amaral's theory as fact in the past would be sanctioned. The McCann's theory has been repeatedly posted as fact without being sanctioned. Neither theory has been proved to be correct so both should be discussed under the same rules.
amaral is fetaured on a video on this forum promoting his thoery as fact
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 06:10:15 PM
It's quite simple really. Anyone posting Amaral's theory as fact in the past would be sanctioned. The McCann's theory has been repeatedly posted as fact without being sanctioned. Neither theory has been proved to be correct so both should be discussed under the same rules.
That is a precise description of the situation
It would seem that some people are unhappy they can't type abduction as a fact, when it is abundantly clear that how she disappeared has not been determined.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
I know they haven't a baldy clue where Madeleine is or how she got there but if you know different do feel free to educate us all.
No sadly I do not. I was just questioning why you feel the money spent on investigating the abduction of a little British girl would be better spent in London?? (all imop)
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:16:13 PM
he actua;;y twice uses the words...of that we have no doubt
Indeed.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 06:16:17 PM
Amaral is not a member of this forum so cannot post anything. Take up your silly gripe with CMTV or YouTube. We are not responsible for what anyone chooses to view.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 06:17:29 PM
No sadly I do not. I was just questioning why you feel the money spent on investigating the abduction of a little British girl would be better spent in London?? (all imop)
Again a reminder, Erngath.
Do not state abduction as a fact
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 01, 2017, 06:17:29 PM
But he is not a member so doesn't have to abide by the rules.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:18:04 PM
I know they haven't a baldy clue where Madeleine is or how she got there but if you know different do feel free to educate us all.
The one word by Rowley some seem to hang their coat on is abducted,whilst those that do seemingly ignore all others he uttered including no definitive evidence,evidence is limited at the moment to know which to be cast iron about which hypotheses we should follow.Its all here page three.
No sadly I do not. I was just questioning why you feel the money spent on investigating the abduction of a little British girl would be better spent in London?? (all imop)
Isn't that where the Met have responsibility?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 06:18:32 PM
It would seem that some people are unhappy they can't type abduction as a fact, when it is abundantly clear that how she disappeared has not been determined.
I have not posted abduction as fact I have posted the Rowley has posted it as fact
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
Could that be perchance &%+((£ because there is No Evidence of any abduction?? In my opinion SY have wasted an opportunity to solve this mystery brought about by an acute case of tunnel vision.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 06:20:57 PM
Could that be perchance &%+((£ because there is No Evidence of any abduction?? In my opinion SY have wasted an opportunity to solve this case brought about by an acute case of tunnel vision.
Could that be perchance the investigation has moved on since the Amaral era?? &%+((£
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 06:23:27 PM
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 01, 2017, 06:35:35 PM
Did he state it was a fact?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 06:35:56 PM
If SY has achieved anything in the Maddie investigation can someone please inform me because the results from what I have seen amount to a big fat ZERO. And now they are winding up their investigation with nothing to show for it.
This was probably Rowley's last opportunity before the shelving to justify what they have spent and what a poor job he made of it. This was supposed to have been a warts and all investigation going back to basics and now he reveals that to have been false. It makes Redwood look like a prise idiot in my book.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 06:37:40 PM
He is not a member of this forum so cannot post anything. Take up your silly gripe with CMTV or YouTube. We are not responsible for what anyone chooses to view.
But the video of his beliefs is on this forum and he does not use the words in my opinion. So why are Rowley's words where he states that Madeleine was abducted subject to scrutiny and only in his opinion all in my opinion of course,
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 01, 2017, 06:40:42 PM
Ok .So you would prefer the Met to have spent the money in London on other projects. I was thinking along the lines that the money was given by the UK government only for that specific remit.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 06:46:20 PM
But the video of his beliefs is on this forum and he does not use the words in my opinion. So why are Rowley's words where he states that Madeleine was abducted subject to scrutiny and only in his opinion all in my opinion of course,
No one has forced you to watch the video.
His theories are already known.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: misty on June 01, 2017, 06:53:43 PM
Being allowed to post that there is no evidence of abduction appears to be permitted yet that is also an unproven fact. Very biased.
As none of us actually know what evidence there is or isn't & discussion about abduction must now be accompanied by a million disclaimers, or the red pen will be produced, what the heck is the point of a discussion forum????
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 01, 2017, 06:54:02 PM
There is specific information he has that you dont
Does Rowley actually hold any info into a specific investigation, I'd have thought his brief wouldn't allow it,imo his press interview was cobbled together by his press officer.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 01, 2017, 06:56:44 PM
I will take note of that response. Could be useful.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: carlymichelle on June 01, 2017, 07:48:26 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 07:48:34 PM
But he does say/state/opine that Madeleine was abducted.
But not just that,he also says there is no definitive evidence as to what happened and that's why they keep an open mind, adding even if we have to be pessimistic about the prospects, we are open minded because we don’t have definitive evidence about what happened to Madeleine.Links have been provided verifying it.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Eleanor on June 01, 2017, 07:53:02 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
Kill the debate altogether, why don't you.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 07:56:43 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
I think it might have been dudes on forums who fathomed, long before Amaral, that Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the Renault Scenic.
That scarcely put Amaral off his stroke, though ....
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 07:57:06 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
Yes ban everything......................
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2017, 07:58:59 PM
Being allowed to post that there is no evidence of abduction appears to be permitted yet that is also an unproven fact. Very biased. As none of us actually know what evidence there is or isn't & discussion about abduction must now be accompanied by a million disclaimers, or the red pen will be produced, what the heck is the point of a discussion forum????
Nothing biased about it, the very simple reason we never hear about any evidence of apartment abduction is because there isn't any imo. As you very well know there were no valuables stolen, no witnesses and no forensics which could support an intruder abduction. You might not like it but those are the facts.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:01:06 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
Amaral has shown he does not understand the evidence...he does not understand the dog alerts
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 08:02:22 PM
Nothing biased about it, the very simple reason we never hear about any evidence of apartment abduction is because there isn't any imo. As you very well know there were no valuables stolen, no witnesses and no forensics which could support an intruder abduction. You might not like it but those are the facts.
of course there is evidence of abduction....indirect evidence...but certainly evidence
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 08:03:17 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
What do you reckon?
Should we start a thread debating the proposition that Amaral understood the forensic result from the boot of the Renault hire-car, but Stuart Prior didn't?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 08:03:52 PM
i also think refrences to amaral not understanding evidence etc should be banned from this forum he was an police officer he understands more then anyone on this forum what was going on in portugal at that time just imo
As long as it is an opinion it is welcome. The bit most supporters fail to understand is that Amaral was there on the ground, as Coordinator he oversaw everything and could see for himself how people were behaving when being questioned. Despite people claiming he never met the McCanns he was able to observe them and recounted several observations in his book.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:11:20 PM
of course there is evidence of abduction....indirect evidence...but certainly evidence
Absolute rollocks and you know it. Even her bed appeared as if she had never slept in it that night. It would be the first abductor in history to make up the bed after stealing the child.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 08:12:32 PM
The sad thing is that some people seem to be rubbing their hands with glee and anticipation, drooling, almost, with anticipation at the notion that Operation Grange will draw a blank.
You know, hang Madeleine, just rejoice and exalt at the prospect that Kate's and Gerry's anguish may be intensified by simply never knowing what happened to Madeleine; at least, for some people, the runners-up 'prize' if they can't actually look forward to the prospect of Kate and Gerry languishing in a Portuguese jail for the crimes of others against their eldest, and first-born, child ....
Depressing beyond words.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 08:13:03 PM
As long as it is an opinion it is welcome. The bit most supporters fail to understand is that Amaral was there on the ground, as Coordinator he oversaw everything and could see for himself how people were behaving when being questioned. Despite people claiming he never met the McCanns he was able to observe them and recounted several observations in his book.
none of that has any relevance to how good he is a policeman...how good he is at assessing evidence. Based on the video here he hasnt got a clue....imo
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:13:53 PM
As long as it is an opinion it is welcome. The bit most supporters fail to understand is that Amaral was there on the ground, as Coordinator he oversaw everything and could see for himself how people were behaving when being questioned. Despite people claiming he never met the McCanns he was able to observe them and recounted several observations in his book.
So you would, at least, expect him to know what Mark Harrison's role in the investigation was.
But he doesn't appear to have a clue.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Eleanor on June 01, 2017, 08:16:28 PM
As long as it is an opinion it is welcome. The bit most supporters fail to understand is that Amaral was there on the ground, as Coordinator he oversaw everything and could see for himself how people were behaving when being questioned. Despite people claiming he never met the McCanns he was able to observe them and recounted several observations in his book.
Amaral recounted a large number of observations in his book. Most of which he couldn't prove.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 08:17:30 PM
As long as it is an opinion it is welcome. The bit most supporters fail to understand is that Amaral was there on the ground, as Coordinator he oversaw everything and could see for himself how people were behaving when being questioned. Despite people claiming he never met the McCanns he was able to observe them and recounted several observations in his book.
i think the bit you dont understand is several of us on here understand just about everything...ive been saying for yras that the evidence points to maddie being abducted now rowley has come out and stated it as a fact
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
The sad thing is that some people seem to be rubbing their hands with glee and anticipation, drooling, almost, with anticipation at the notion that Operation Grange will draw a blank.
You know, hang Madeleine, just rejoice and exalt at the prospect that Kate's and Gerry's anguish may be intensified by simply never knowing what happened to Madeleine; at least, for some people, the runners-up 'prize' if they can't actually look forward to the prospect of Kate and Gerry languishing in a Portuguese jail for the crimes of others against their eldest, and first-born, child ....
Depressing beyond words.
Try not to let it get you down. It isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 08:19:35 PM
The sad thing is that some people seem to be rubbing their hands with glee and anticipation, drooling, almost, with anticipation at the notion that Operation Grange will draw a blank.
You know, hang Madeleine, just rejoice and exalt at the prospect that Kate's and Gerry's anguish may be intensified by simply never knowing what happened to Madeleine; at least, for some people, the runners-up 'prize' if they can't actually look forward to the prospect of Kate and Gerry languishing in a Portuguese jail for the crimes of others against their eldest, and first-born, child ....
Depressing beyond words.
That type of attempted propaganda wore thin a long time ago..............
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
Absolute rollocks and you know it. Even her bed appeared as if she had never slept in it that night. It would be the first abductor in history to make up the bed after stealing the child.
Sorry angelo but that is rather silly. I have granddaughters,one wriggles like a little worm and her bed can be untidy.the other two hardly move and their beds look little changed when they awaken.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:24:28 PM
The sad thing is that some people seem to be rubbing their hands with glee and anticipation, drooling, almost, with anticipation at the notion that Operation Grange will draw a blank.
You know, hang Madeleine, just rejoice and exalt at the prospect that Kate's and Gerry's anguish may be intensified by simply never knowing what happened to Madeleine; at least, for some people, the runners-up 'prize' if they can't actually look forward to the prospect of Kate and Gerry languishing in a Portuguese jail for the crimes of others against their eldest, and first-born, child ....
Depressing beyond words.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:31:19 PM
redwood has said...based on the evidence......so there is evidence as far as the professionals are concerned
Rowley on what Redwood had to say.
Quote
In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted
Also worth noting no where as any one stated that this alleged incident is limited to wholly and solely stranger involvement.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 08:38:20 PM
what is hypocritical of some posters is that amaral has been saying as a fact for almost 10 yeras that maddie died in the apartment....he has said the children were sedated every night with calpol, of that there is no doubt...and those statemnts have been allowed to be expressed by him. yet when rowley says Maddie was abducted...all hell breaks loose
I think you have your facts and opinion mixed up. Amaral's claims have never been accepted on this forum as fact unless backed up by evidence.
As for your evidence of abduction, more hot air.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 09:20:05 PM
I think you have your facts and opinion mixed up. Amaral's claims have never been accepted on this forum as fact unless backed up by evidence.
As for your evidence of abduction, more hot air.
I have nothing mixed up...evidence for abduction..its there .....Redwood has confirmed it...as for amarals claims...his video is allowed on this forum without caveat where he claims opinin as fact
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2017, 09:57:20 PM
I have nothing mixed up...evidence for abduction..its there .....Redwood has confirmed it...as for amarals claims...his video is allowed on this forum without caveat where he claims opinin as fact
He did not provide any evidence.
He merely stated an opinion.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 01, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
I have nothing mixed up...evidence for abduction..its there .....Redwood has confirmed it...as for amarals claims...his video is allowed on this forum without caveat where he claims opinin as fact
What I hear him say is "however she left that apartment she's been abducted". However she left the apartment - that is the full range of ways of getting out of the apartment, walked out back door or front door, dragged out or carried out.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Erngath on June 01, 2017, 09:59:32 PM
That's true. Amaral has no evidence. Just his opinion
I was referring to Redwood.
Can you remind me when he first visited Portugal in regard to this case ?
Amaral has his opinions on the case, but it doesn't make him right either.
The nature of Madeleine's disappearance remains undetermined, and opinions are not facts
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2017, 10:25:35 PM
...im stating facts....redwood said based on the EVIDENCE maddie was abducted...Rowley says Maddie was abducted... I would say there is loads of evidence to rule out the parents and tahts what they have done
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 01, 2017, 10:32:18 PM
Are the Metropolitan police always right? I think not.
Even the Pope speaks ex cathedra on very few occasions ... the rest of the time he is as fallible as the rest of us. So you are probably correct in thinking the Met might not always be right ... but let us be thankful for the occasions when they are.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: misty on June 01, 2017, 11:35:42 PM
Even the Pope speaks ex cathedra on very few occasions ... the rest of the time he is as fallible as the rest of us. So you are probably correct in thinking the Met might not always be right ... but let us be thankful for the occasions when they are.
I totally agree - and I believe the Portuguese police are working in tandem with the Met, not against them. Does that make them wrong, too? Some people seem to forget that the Met are regarded as the best by forces worldwide. Their officers are trained to a higher standard than the rank & file Bobby and, along with MI5 & MI6, allow us to live a pretty normal life, oblivious to many terrors which may have befallen us were it not for their diligence. Be thankful we are not victims of crime & at the mercy of forces such as those in Haiti, Mexico or Kenya.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: sadie on June 01, 2017, 11:51:26 PM
So we have Amaral stating opinion as fact, and Rowley stating opinion as fact.
I think all future references to both of them should be Deleted.
Please do not delete future references to both of them because you will leava Amaral at a decided advantage against The Mccanns and against Rowley.
This advantage is because Amarals video is cleverly and carefully manufactured propaganda embellished with several lies ... and such propaganda is frequently believed by the easily manipulated, or people with no knowledge of the case, to be correct.
Rowley, on the other hand has stated that it was an abduction. Plain talking with no unecessary dishonest embellishments, which I like.
And having received a great deal of extra info to Amaral over the past few years, Rowley may have information as to who was responsible for that abduction. He doesn't have to tell us that.
Why should he?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: sadie on June 01, 2017, 11:57:54 PM
Being allowed to post that there is no evidence of abduction appears to be permitted yet that is also an unproven fact. Very biased. As none of us actually know what evidence there is or isn't & discussion about abduction must now be accompanied by a million disclaimers, or the red pen will be produced, what the heck is the point of a discussion forum????
8@??)( Explicit and in a nut shell as usual, Misty
Two very valid points there.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 12:15:52 AM
saying there is no evidence of abduction is just an opinion ...we dont know...SY may well have evidence of abduction
can post now be adjusted accordingly
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 01:57:37 AM
saying there is no evidence of abduction is just an opinion ...we dont know...SY may well have evidence of abduction
can post now be adjusted accordingly
They may well have evidence of many things but SY have been unable to follow through on any of it which can only lead to one conclusion. If abduction did ocur it was more likely to have been from the street and not from the bedroom.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 02, 2017, 02:40:39 AM
They may well have evidence of many things but SY have been unable to follow through on any of it which can only lead to one conclusion. If abduction did ocur it was more likely to have been from the street and not from the bedroom.
Is an abduction from the street called any different to abduction from the bedroom, it would still be called an abduction would it not?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 02:55:28 AM
Being allowed to post that there is no evidence of abduction appears to be permitted yet that is also an unproven fact. Very biased.
As none of us actually know what evidence there is or isn't & discussion about abduction must now be accompanied by a million disclaimers, or the red pen will be produced, what the heck is the point of a discussion forum????
Good point misty, posters should make clear that it is an opinion based on the KNOWN facts.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 03:18:24 AM
Maddie gone is what we call neutral evidence, it has no significance as to how she came to be missing. It certainly does not indicate she was abducted.
The claimed open window was never proven to have been open and in any event the only identifiable fingerprints found on it belonged to the missing child's mother Kate McCann.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 03:21:52 AM
Thanx to barrier for the Rowley quote.
Quote
In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted
Robby touched on this earlier and having read this quote again I can see the significance.
What I hear him say is "however she left that apartment she's been abducted". However she left the apartment - that is the full range of ways of getting out of the apartment, walked out back door or front door, dragged out or carried out.
Rowley isn't saying that she was definitely abducted from the apartment. What he is in fact inferring is that she could have been abducted from either inside or outside the apartment which puts an entirely different slant on it.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 03:29:07 AM
There is nothing (in the files available publicly) to gainsay abduction, and evidently nothing in the information available to Mark Rowley (who knows more than we do) to gainsay ABDUCTION.
gainsay
verb formal deny or contradict (a fact or statement). "the impact of the railways cannot be gainsaid" synonyms: deny, dispute, disagree with, argue with, dissent from, contradict, repudiate, declare untrue, challenge, oppose, contest, counter, fly in the face of; More speak against or oppose (someone). "none could gainsay her"
Well what happens if we put the definition into your sentences: There is nothing (in the files available publicly) to deny or contradict abduction, and evidently nothing in the information available to Mark Rowley (who knows more than we do) to deny or contradict ABDUCTION.
There is nothing (in the files available publicly) to speak against or oppose abduction, and evidently nothing in the information available to Mark Rowley (who knows more than we do) to speak against or oppose ABDUCTION.
So are you saying it can't be denied and it can't be argued against?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 07:22:05 AM
I know people passionately believe in the abduction scenario but I really don't understand why it's so important to them to be allowed to post about it as a fact. To me it's a great big fuss about nothing but a slight adjustment to posts.
I have no idea, either, why the Metropolitan Police should be seen as the oracle. They are not even the best police force in England and Wales, never mind in the world as some claim. The best police force in 2016 was Durham, according to HMIC.
It has long been suspected that Operation Grange were investigating only an abduction and no other possibility because of the wording of their remit. Colin Sutton confirmed this.
The Supreme Court of Portugal's recent ruling about the situation at the time of the archiving suggests that Operation Grange may have misunderstood the findings of the first investigation.
Rowley's claim that parental involvement was 'dealt with' by the PJ is therefore questionable. His dismissal of 'woke and wandered' by asserting that the child wasn't old enough to go off and start a new life was, in my opinion, an insult to people's intelligence. Most people can come up with other reasons to explain why Madeleine might have left the apartment.
Operation Grange may have evidence of abduction but equally they may not. Perhaps one day we will find out, but until we do there's no reason to believe they are on the right track in my opinion.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:47:32 AM
I know people passionately believe in the abduction scenario but I really don't understand why it's so important to them to be allowed to post about it as a fact. To me it's a great big fuss about nothing but a slight adjustment to posts.
I have no idea, either, why the Metropolitan Police should be seen as the oracle. They are not even the best police force in England and Wales, never mind in the world as some claim. The best police force in 2016 was Durham, according to HMIC.
It has long been suspected that Operation Grange were investigating only an abduction and no other possibility because of the wording of their remit. Colin Sutton confirmed this.
The Supreme Court of Portugal's recent ruling about the situation at the time of the archiving suggests that Operation Grange may have misunderstood the findings of the first investigation.
Rowley's claim that parental involvement was 'dealt with' by the PJ is therefore questionable. His dismissal of 'woke and wandered' by asserting that the child wasn't old enough to go off and start a new life was, in my opinion, an insult to people's intelligence. Most people can come up with other reasons to explain why Madeleine might have left the apartment.
Operation Grange may have evidence of abduction but equally they may not. Perhaps one day we will find out, but until we do there's no reason to believe they are on the right track in my opinion.
I believe Maddie was abducted... I don't know for sure but based on the evidence I think its way ahead the most likely scenario.... We had a situation yesterday when it was forbidden to repeat Rowleys claim that Maddie was abducted. Why do some people have such a problem with that....I find that very strange and it seems that the abduction scenario needed to be suppressed.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 08:11:50 AM
I believe Maddie was abducted... I don't know for sure but based on the evidence I think its way ahead the most likely scenario.... We had a situation yesterday when it was forbidden to repeat Rowleys claim that Maddie was abducted. Why do some people have such a problem with that....I find that very strange and it seems that the abduction scenario needed to be suppressed.
You're perfectly at liberty to believe Madeleine was abducted but not to say it's definitely what happened.
Are you sure about being forbidden to repeat Rowley's claim? Can you point me to that discussion because as I understand it we can repeat it as long as we don't insist his claim is correct.
You seem to be confusing suggesting that an abduction occurred and insisting that it did. The crime against Madeleine (if any) is unknown, so claiming one of the possible scenarios as a fact is incorrect.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Innominate on June 02, 2017, 08:15:33 AM
Quote
His dismissal of 'woke and wandered' by asserting that the child wasn't old enough to go off and start a new life was, in my opinion, an insult to people's intelligence. Most people can come up with other reasons to explain why Madeleine might have left the apartment.
I do not read the interview that way.
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 08:18:40 AM
You're perfectly at liberty to believe Madeleine was abducted but not to say it's definitely what happened.
Are you sure about being forbidden to repeat Rowley's claim? Can you point me to that discussion because as I understand it we can repeat it as long as we don't insist his claim is correct.
You seem to be confusing suggesting that an abduction occurred and insisting that it did. The crime against Madeleine (if any) is unknown, so claiming one of the possible scenarios as a fact is incorrect.
I'm not confusing anything Posts repeating Rowleys words were not allowed and edited by a moderator yesterday Fortunately John corrected the situation
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 08:19:21 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
A sobering post, but (I would say) a sound assessment of Rowley's words.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 08:23:00 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
The archiving report was dismissive of woke and wandered and it would be interesting to know exactly why They must have had a reason Once woke and wandered is ruled out then abduction is really the only scenario left
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 08:24:03 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
But was a question raised about woke and wandered?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 08:27:39 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
Rowley was quite precise He said Maddie was abducted
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 02, 2017, 08:30:51 AM
But was a question raised about woke and wandered?
it need to be pointed out, yet again, Rowley is merely expressing his opinion on the case.
He has also said..
'The Scotland Yard chief admits there is still a “lot unknown” about the case after nearly 10 years and fear they may never solve it.'
'Mr Rowley said: “All the different hypotheses have to remain open and we've got some thoughts on what we think the most likely explanations might be.” '
'Despite failing to unearth any significant clues leading to Maddie’s whereabouts, Mr Rowley insists they have achieved “an awful lot.”
So, basically, he doesn't know what happened and they have no idea what happened to Madeleine.
By the way, the shelving inquiry said the 'woke and wondered' was very unlikely, it did not say it was impossible.
After all, a door was unlocked.
At the start of the case, it was said the doors were locked, which then became one was unlocked.
Mmm.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 08:40:18 AM
it need to be pointed out, yet again, Rowley is merely expressing his opinion on the case.
He has also said..
'The Scotland Yard chief admits there is still a “lot unknown” about the case after nearly 10 years and fear they may never solve it.'
'Mr Rowley said: “All the different hypotheses have to remain open and we've got some thoughts on what we think the most likely explanations might be.” '
'Despite failing to unearth any significant clues leading to Maddie’s whereabouts, Mr Rowley insists they have achieved “an awful lot.”
So, basically, he doesn't know what happened and they have no idea what happened to Madeleine.
By the way, the shelving inquiry said the 'woke and wondered' was very unlikely, it did not say it was impossible.
After all, a door was unlocked.
At the start of the case, it was said the doors were locked, which then became one was unlocked.
Mmm.
we dont know why the archiving report was so dismissive of woke and wandered...they obviously have some information we are not aware of
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 08:41:38 AM
the reason why some cling to and insist on abduction imo is so ( in their eyes) the mcanns are not responsible for maddies fate whatever that may be which isnt true the lack of parenting that week is they were the parents and were responisble for whatever befell maddie imho
indeed Carly.
Parents are responsible for their children's safety,and ensuring they are fully protected from harm as possible.
Leaving children in unlocked accomodation, is not conducive to this.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 08:43:22 AM
the reason why some cling to and insist on abduction imo is so ( in their eyes) the mcanns are not responsible for maddies fate whatever that may be which isnt true the lack of parenting that week is they were the parents and were responisble for whatever befell maddie imho
Not true.....I beleive in abduction because tahts what the evidence points to....
rowleys words...
this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
What I hear him say is "however she left that apartment she's been abducted". However she left the apartment - that is the full range of ways of getting out of the apartment, walked out back door or front door, dragged out or carried out.
Just before 2 minutes in. However she left the apartment she's been abducted
(Mark Rowley).
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 08:53:40 AM
As a reminder, none of the three hypotheses have been proved or disproved.
Stating any as a fact on this forum, as Admin said yesterday.
I have been asked to intervene here so I will. Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban. I cannot make it any clearer than that. It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.
Admin
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: carlymichelle on June 02, 2017, 08:55:13 AM
stephen i wasnt stating anything as fact 8(0(* just letting you know
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 08:55:47 AM
As a reminder, none of the three hypotheses have been proved or disproved.
Stating any as a fact on this forum, as Admin said yesterday.
I have been asked to intervene here so I will. Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban. I cannot make it any clearer than that. It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.
Admin
So as a reminder, Rowley was expressing his opinion, as has Amaral.
NOTHING MORE.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 08:56:21 AM
What does it do then,no definitive evidence,to abducted some 90 secs later in the same interview.
Question and answer to and from Rowley.
Quote
Q: You’ve described it as a ‘unique’ case. Why is it unique? MR: I think it’s unique in two or three respects. First of all the way its captured attention in different countries is quite unusual. You’ll get a very high-profile case in a particular country, the way it has captured interest across countries, I think is significant. The length of it. And it’s unusual to have a case like this where you’re doing a missing persons investigation, where ten years on, we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened. And that’s why we’re open minded, even if we have to be pessimistic about the prospects, we are open minded because we don’t have definitive evidence about what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 09:21:08 AM
Perhaps because of that precision,the case remains unsolved.
From start to finish of the interview it seemed to me that AC Mark Rowley was adamant that despite continuing keeping an open mind while following the current leads in Madeleine's case both the SY and PJ investigations are focused on a particular line of inquiry.
Revelation of which would compromise the investigation.
I got the distinct impression that both organisations are working in close cooperation with each other on whatever direction it is their enquiries have taken them. Sounded to me as if they are now following the same path which I think may be a sound one, particularly as we know they approached it from different directions.
If there had been any suggestion the woke and wandered scenario features anywhere I think he would have found a way of saying that without risk to the "small number of lines of enquiry" they are pursuing.
I don't think 'woke and wandered' is of any interest to them, they are after a specific target.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 09:24:22 AM
From start to finish of the interview it seemed to me that AC Mark Rowley was adamant that despite continuing keeping an open mind while following the current leads in Madeleine's case both the SY and PJ investigations are focused on a particular line of inquiry.
Revelation of which would compromise the investigation.
I got the distinct impression that both organisations are working in close cooperation with each other on whatever direction it is their enquiries have taken them. Sounded to me as if they are now following the same path which I think may be a sound one, particularly as we know they approached it from different directions.
If there had been any suggestion the woke and wandered scenario features anywhere I think he would have found a way of saying that without risk to the "small number of lines of enquiry" they are pursuing.
I don't think 'woke and wandered' is of any interest to them, they are after a specific target.
We shall see on that Brietta.
What will you say, if as I have stated since the beginning, the case is shelved once more, with no resolution ?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 09:33:24 AM
What will you say, if as I have stated since the beginning, the case is shelved once more, with no resolution ?
I have long held the view it'll end with a simple statement along the lines of person or persons unknown removed Madeleine from 5a leaving no clue as to her whereabouts.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 09:37:53 AM
I have long held the view it'll end with a simple statement along the lines of person or persons unknown removed Madeleine from 5a leaving no clue as to her whereabouts.
Or perhaps Maddie was abducted by persons unknown
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 09:38:42 AM
From start to finish of the interview it seemed to me that AC Mark Rowley was adamant that despite continuing keeping an open mind while following the current leads in Madeleine's case both the SY and PJ investigations are focused on a particular line of inquiry.
Revelation of which would compromise the investigation.
I got the distinct impression that both organisations are working in close cooperation with each other on whatever direction it is their enquiries have taken them. Sounded to me as if they are now following the same path which I think may be a sound one, particularly as we know they approached it from different directions.
If there had been any suggestion the woke and wandered scenario features anywhere I think he would have found a way of saying that without risk to the "small number of lines of enquiry" they are pursuing.
I don't think 'woke and wandered' is of any interest to them, they are after a specific target.
Yep!
I would echo all that.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 09:39:20 AM
You are expressing your opinion as fact ... as well as deflecting from the topic which is 'Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?'
In case you did not notice it Brietta, it was ferryman who brought up the subject of avarice.
In what way, by the way, was I expressing my opinion as fact ?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 09:43:41 AM
What will you say, if as I have stated since the beginning, the case is shelved once more, with no resolution ?
Missing persons cases are never shelved in Britain as far as I am aware. The Portuguese have recently stated that Madeleine's case will not be closed ... perhaps changes in the penal code now circumvent 'shelving' of such cases, as happened first time round?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 09:59:03 AM
Steering the post back on topic, Mark Rowley has confirmed the correctness of the (ultimate) conclusion of the shelved enquiry (that Madeleine was abducted) and confirming, further, that significant lines of enquiry are being pursued (to bring Madeleine's abductor(s) to book
Precisely
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 10:02:08 AM
The only way the McCanns had any chance of securing just recompense for the foul calumnies inflicted upon Kate and Gerry, Madeleine and especially the search for Madeleine was if Amaral's assets were seized in preparation for a (just) transfer of his ill-gotten gains to a worthwhile cause, the search for Madeleine.
But then, crooked Supreme-Court lawyers determined a different path.
Steering the post back on topic, Mark Rowley has confirmed the correctness of the (ultimate) conclusion of the shelved enquiry (that Madeleine was abducted) and confirming, further, that significant lines of enquiry are being pursued (to bring Madeleine's abductor(s) to book
As another reminder, Rowley was expressing his opinion, that's all.
Is Rowley, by the way, part of the remaining 4 people, on the team, or is he merely the spokesman.
That of course was a rhetorical question.
It is not his job to say an abduction occurred. Surely , that would be determined in court, if anyone was brought to court of course.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 10:03:52 AM
Missing persons cases are never shelved in Britain as far as I am aware. The Portuguese have recently stated that Madeleine's case will not be closed ... perhaps changes in the penal code now circumvent 'shelving' of such cases, as happened first time round?
Do you have a cite for that Brietta.
Besides, the UK system is irrelevant in this case, as the crime , if any occurred, took place in Portugal.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 10:09:34 AM
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger, a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
Dismissal of 'neglect'
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Mark Rowley was not wrong to conclude Madeleine was abducted.
The McCann's repeated their behaviour of leaving their children unattended, with some checks.
The apartment was locked in the daytime, which means they were aware of the possibility of burglary.
Then we have Rui Pereira's view on this.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 10:27:59 AM
I know people passionately believe in the abduction scenario but I really don't understand why it's so important to them to be allowed to post about it as a fact. To me it's a great big fuss about nothing but a slight adjustment to posts.
I have no idea, either, why the Metropolitan Police should be seen as the oracle. They are not even the best police force in England and Wales, never mind in the world as some claim. The best police force in 2016 was Durham, according to HMIC.
It has long been suspected that Operation Grange were investigating only an abduction and no other possibility because of the wording of their remit. Colin Sutton confirmed this.
The Supreme Court of Portugal's recent ruling about the situation at the time of the archiving suggests that Operation Grange may have misunderstood the findings of the first investigation.
Rowley's claim that parental involvement was 'dealt with' by the PJ is therefore questionable. His dismissal of 'woke and wandered' by asserting that the child wasn't old enough to go off and start a new life was, in my opinion, an insult to people's intelligence. Most people can come up with other reasons to explain why Madeleine might have left the apartment.
Operation Grange may have evidence of abduction but equally they may not. Perhaps one day we will find out, but until we do there's no reason to believe they are on the right track in my opinion.
A very reasoned post G-Unit. The original investigation was thwarted by the refusal of numerous individuals who were there that night to cooperate and take part in a reconstruction so my question is how can Rowley possibly state with a straight face that they took up where the Portuguese left off? Have SY undertaken a full reconstruction?...I think not!
His comments about Maddie not being old enough to go off and start a new life was flippant and very unprofessional. I wonder what her parents thought about that comment?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 10:42:42 AM
I believe Maddie was abducted... I don't know for sure but based on the evidence I think its way ahead the most likely scenario.... We had a situation yesterday when it was forbidden to repeat Rowleys claim that Maddie was abducted. Why do some people have such a problem with that....I find that very strange and it seems that the abduction scenario needed to be suppressed.
You're way off kilter on that one davel. You were given every opportunity to provide evidence and all I recall seeing was Maddie was gone and the window was open, neither of which relate solely to abduction.
Rowley might be right about one thing and that is she was abducted AFTER leaving the apartment of her own volition so in that respect he was not wrong to claim she was abducted... "however she left the apartment".
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
Absolutely spot on!
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 10:46:09 AM
You're way off kilter on that one davel. You were given every opportunity to provide evidence and all I recall seeing was Maddie was gone and the window was open, neither of which relate solely to abduction.
Rowley might be right about one thing and that is she was abducted AFTER leaving the apartment of her own volition so in that respect he was not wrong to claim she was abducted... "however she left the apartment".
Why do you think the archiving report said woke and wandered was highly unlikely
That is part of my thinking
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 10:47:23 AM
A very reasoned post G-Unit. The original investigation was thwarted by the refusal of numerous individuals who were there that night to cooperate and take part in a reconstruction so my question is how can Rowley possibly state with a straight face that they took up where the Portuguese left off? Have SY undertaken a full reconstruction?...I think not!
His comments about Maddie not being old enough to go off and start a new life was flippant and very unprofessional. I wonder what her parents thought about that comment?
How would a recon have taken the investigation forward I just don't see it
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 02, 2017, 10:57:57 AM
A very reasoned post G-Unit. The original investigation was thwarted by the refusal of numerous individuals who were there that night to cooperate and take part in a reconstruction so my question is how can Rowley possibly state with a straight face that they took up where the Portuguese left off? Have SY undertaken a full reconstruction?...I think not!
His comments about Maddie not being old enough to go off and start a new life was flippant and very unprofessional. I wonder what her parents thought about that comment?
I took that to mean they had been talking to a person who has proposed that as the reason they helped Madeleine to start a life of her own. Rowley pointed out to him/her she was too young to go off and start a new life on her own.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Benice on June 02, 2017, 11:07:24 AM
A very reasoned post G-Unit. The original investigation was thwarted by the refusal of numerous individuals who were there that night to cooperate and take part in a reconstruction so my question is how can Rowley possibly state with a straight face that they took up where the Portuguese left off? Have SY undertaken a full reconstruction?...I think not!
His comments about Maddie not being old enough to go off and start a new life was flippant and very unprofessional. I wonder what her parents thought about that comment?
Quote from DCI Redwood:
"We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to be removed from that apartment alive and it is our belief as experienced investigators on the evidence that um that, you know, that is a criminal act that has been undertaken by a stranger". End quote
Even if it was possible - and IMO it most definitely isn't possible - what would a recon have proved? - and how was it supposed to be an opportunity for the McCanns to demonstrate their innocence? Their innocence of what?
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 11:09:06 AM
My opinion Rowley is being ridiculed because he supports abduction
I don't see any contradictions in his statements..... If you do please cite them
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Lace on June 02, 2017, 11:09:28 AM
If you read the response and the question, as a whole, my interpretation of his response has always been that he did not dismiss woke and wandered.
The question refers to 'woke and wandered'.
His response is roughly however she left the apartment she did not leave to start a new life.
I.E. If she left the apartment voluntarily she did not leave to start a new life because she was only 4 years old, therefore there was third-party involvement.
He states abduction as third party involvement, but third party involvement also includes removal of a body after an accident IMO.
He also said that the McCann's were not being investigated, he said that was dealt with by the Portuguese police and he wasn't going to open that again.
If you think there was an accident and the McCann's are guilty, why do you think that years down the line and millions of pounds later SY are still investigating?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Lace on June 02, 2017, 11:12:46 AM
You're way off kilter on that one davel. You were given every opportunity to provide evidence and all I recall seeing was Maddie was gone and the window was open, neither of which relate solely to abduction.
Rowley might be right about one thing and that is she was abducted AFTER leaving the apartment of her own volition so in that respect he was not wrong to claim she was abducted... "however she left the apartment".
The thing is John, SY have eliminated woke and wandered and an accident, and so with the evidence of a missing child they say Madeleine was abducted.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 11:16:51 AM
The archiving report was dismissive of woke and wandered and it would be interesting to know exactly why They must have had a reason Once woke and wandered is ruled out then abduction is really the only scenario left
As already pointed out the original investigation was thwarted so any conclusions arrived at were provisional.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 11:22:46 AM
As already pointed out the original investigation was thwarted so any conclusions arrived at were provisional.
You seem to think that the lack of a reconstruction was the sole reason for shelving the case I don't see how it would have made any difference Surely it was the total lack of any direct evidence that stopped the case going forward
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 11:28:09 AM
The thing is John, SY have eliminated woke and wandered and an accident, and so with the evidence of a missing child they say Madeleine was abducted.
No they haven't and furthermore it would be incompetent for them to do so.
Rowley gave us two clues about this. First one is his comment, namely, "However she left that apartment, she has been abducted" and "...we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened."
He stated that, "...she was not old enough to set off and start her own life" but this does not preclude leaving the confines of the apartment on her own. Scotland Yard would be very silly to discount woke and wandered.
No they haven't and furthermore it would be incompetent for them to do so.
Rowley gave us two clues about this. First one is his comment, namely, "However she left that apartment, she has been abducted" and "...we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened."
He stated that she wasn't old enough to have gone off on her own but this does not preclude leaving the confines of the apartment on her own. Scotland Yard would be very silly to discount woke and wandered.
You are putting your own interpretation on his words What would be interesting is to know why the archiving report said woke and wandered was highly unlikely They must have had a reason
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 11:32:45 AM
The thing is John, SY have eliminated woke and wandered and an accident, and so with the evidence of a missing child they say Madeleine was abducted.
How could they eliminate woke and wandered?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
I believe we jointly, regardless of our views, have actually thrown some light on SY's thinking. They do favour abduction and I agree but it has to be accepted that the abduction could have occurred outside as well as inside. Furthermore, if Madeleine did meet with a fatal accident in the street then abduction is not the correct term.
There is very strong evidence in the form of the two tracker dogs which, a matter of hours after the disappearance, independently followed her scent on a route from the apartment terminating across the road from mini reception. Did she get out and attempt to retrace her route to the kids club thinking her parents were there? Did she fall foul of someone?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 11:51:32 AM
I believe we jointly, regardless of our views, have actually thrown some light on SY's thinking. They do favour abduction and I agree but it has to be accepted that the abduction could have occurred outside as well as inside. Furthermore, if Madeleine did meet with a fatal accident in the street then abduction is not the correct term.
There is very strong evidence in the form of the two tracker dogs which, a matter of hours after the disappearance, independently followed her scent on a route from the apartment terminating across the road from mini reception. Did she get out and attempt to retrace her route to the kids club thinking her parents were there? Did she fall foul of someone?
You say the evidence is very strong Then why did the archiving report all but rule out Woke and wandered
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 11:52:17 AM
They chose to use the term unlikely. However, as has been seen in many other cases, the unlikely can very much materialise.
Real experts are (in my opinion!) notoriously reluctant to commit themselves to any damn thing.
In the trial of Ian Huntley, the prosecution wheeled in an expert to comment on Huntley's claim that the two girls he murdered, Jessica and Holly, had actually met their fate in Huntley's bathroom; one girl having tripped, fallen into a bath Huntley had run to wash his dog and drowned; the other suffocating while Huntley held his hand over her mouth to stop her screaming.
The expert witness did a pretty expert job of demolishing this scenario as 'unlikely'.
But at the end, asked if he thought Huntley's scenario impossible, he replied no.
Huntley was convicted on a majority verdict.
Perhaps one juror felt Huntley should be accorded 'benefit of the doubt'?
True experts for you!
Drives me mad.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 12:04:30 PM
I have long held the view it'll end with a simple statement along the lines of person or persons unknown removed Madeleine from 5a leaving no clue as to her whereabouts.
I think it's a little more complicated than that. IMO the police have several clues, e.g. phone records, people & vehicle movements, etc, providing a trail. However, until they can actually definitively & forensically place Madeleine herself anywhere in that trail they have no hope of ever securing a conviction or locating her present whereabouts.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 12:37:14 PM
I think it's a little more complicated than that. IMO the police have several clues, e.g. phone records, people & vehicle movements, etc, providing a trail. However, until they can actually definitively & forensically place Madeleine herself anywhere in that trail they have no hope of ever securing a conviction or locating her present whereabouts.
They may well have several phone records,people and vechicle movements whether these are actually clues into the mystery remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 01:19:39 PM
Besides, the UK system is irrelevant in this case, as the crime , if any occurred, took place in Portugal.
In my opinion the UK system is entirely relevant on a thread discussing Scotland Yard's investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance and the difficulties involved in having a case discarded abroad opened in England.
Quote There are more than 1,000 unsolved murders in the UK, some going back several generations. But what happens when the trail goes cold on a murder or a missing child ? Detectives never completely close the files of unsolved homicides or missing children. They simply keep hoping that one day they will be given fresh information that may lead to finding the killer or that child. https://theukdatabase.com/cold-cases-missing-murdered-uk-kids-can-u-help/
AC Mark Rowley's interview details that system in operation in Madeleine's case which was a cold case. He has noted there are still active lines of inquiry being pursued making Madeleine's cold case an active one.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 01:42:42 PM
In my opinion the UK system is entirely relevant on a thread discussing Scotland Yard's investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance and the difficulties involved in having a case discarded abroad opened in England.
Quote There are more than 1,000 unsolved murders in the UK, some going back several generations. But what happens when the trail goes cold on a murder or a missing child ? Detectives never completely close the files of unsolved homicides or missing children. They simply keep hoping that one day they will be given fresh information that may lead to finding the killer or that child. https://theukdatabase.com/cold-cases-missing-murdered-uk-kids-can-u-help/
AC Mark Rowley's interview details that system in operation in Madeleine's case which was a cold case. He has noted there are still active lines of inquiry being pursued making Madeleine's cold case an active one.
But in the quote you used he states the UK,this must be the first and only one in a foreign land not of a dependency of the UK surely.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 01:53:57 PM
I take it you Maddie? true but the dogs alerted to something,that something is unexplained,but we'll never get to know imo because SY won't be issuing any statement when its wound up.
Rowley said there was no definitive evidence that Maddie was alive or dead That rules out that alerts Are you assuming the alerts were to cadaver You cannot make that assumption
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 01:56:20 PM
But in the quote you used he states the UK,this must be the first and only one in a foreign land not of a dependency of the UK surely.
Sorry if I have confused the issue, the quote I used in reply to Stephen did not come from the Rowley interview, and I am not too sure what your post is saying.
AC Rowley was giving information on a running Scotland Yard investigation in the run up to the tenth anniversary of the disappearance of a British child abroad. A separate investigation is being conducted in Portugal ... and the close cooperation of law enforcement was emphasised in his interview.
Does that cover it?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 01:57:15 PM
Rowley said there was no definitive evidence that Maddie was alive or dead That rules out that alerts Are you assuming the alerts were to cadaver You cannot make that assumption
I'm not assuming any thing,the dogs alerted,to what as never been explained nor will be imo.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 02:00:29 PM
Sorry if I have confused the issue, the quote I used in reply to Stephen did not come from the Rowley interview, and I am not too sure what your post is saying.
AC Rowley was giving information on a running Scotland Yard investigation in the run up to the tenth anniversary of the disappearance of a British child abroad. A separate investigation is being conducted in Portugal ... and the close cooperation of law enforcement was emphasised in his interview.
Does that cover it?
Yes thanks.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 02:02:19 PM
In my opinion the UK system is entirely relevant on a thread discussing Scotland Yard's investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance and the difficulties involved in having a case discarded abroad opened in England.
Quote There are more than 1,000 unsolved murders in the UK, some going back several generations. But what happens when the trail goes cold on a murder or a missing child ? Detectives never completely close the files of unsolved homicides or missing children. They simply keep hoping that one day they will be given fresh information that may lead to finding the killer or that child. https://theukdatabase.com/cold-cases-missing-murdered-uk-kids-can-u-help/
AC Mark Rowley's interview details that system in operation in Madeleine's case which was a cold case. He has noted there are still active lines of inquiry being pursued making Madeleine's cold case an active one.
OG may be investigating the case, but they have no authority to arrest.
So they are IMO irrelevant.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 02:22:54 PM
they are bringing their expertise to the case...have analysed all the data ..and it appears have identified areas that can be investigated.To say they are irrellevant is rather silly...they have not told us exactly what they hve found
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 03:27:29 PM
How do you know they have elimated those possibilities? I don't recall Rowley saying they had.
parents are not suspects so an accident is ruled out archiving process obviously had some information which we are not privy to that rules out woke and wandered
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 03:52:48 PM
parents are not suspects so an accident is ruled out archiving process obviously had some information which we are not privy to that rules out woke and wandered
Please could you explain what leads you to think that there was 'obviously had some information which we are not privy to'? It's not obvious to me.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 04:32:29 PM
they are bringing their expertise to the case...have analysed all the data ..and it appears have identified areas that can be investigated.To say they are irrellevant is rather silly...they have not told us exactly what they hve found
Have they found Madeleine or determine or how she disappeared ?
No.
Remember , they have several hypotheses.
Mmm.
Namely, as said, IMO, they don't know.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 05:04:06 PM
No they haven't and furthermore it would be incompetent for them to do so.
Rowley gave us two clues about this. First one is his comment, namely, "However she left that apartment, she has been abducted" and "...we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened."
He stated that, "...she was not old enough to set off and start her own life" but this does not preclude leaving the confines of the apartment on her own. Scotland Yard would be very silly to discount woke and wandered.
Mark Rowley said however she left the apartment she was abducted, as she was too young to leave by herself, now that isn't saying she woke and wandered is it?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 05:45:17 PM
8((()*/ OG may be investigating the case, but they have no authority to arrest.
So they are IMO irrelevant.
In Britain they do ... in Portugal that would be the PJ's job. Between them I should imagine they would be capable of apprehending anyone the evidence merited arresting. European arrest warrants might be able to be used too?
I wouldn't have foreseen AC Rowley having a problem clarifying the situation should he have been asked the question ... I think the good working relationship built between the two national forces is designed to address such situations.
I think that level of cooperation is one of the positive outcomes of Madeleine's current investigation which might enable Joint Working Arrangements to be enacted should there be a future requirement, instead of the cumbersome methods which have eaten up so much time and effort in this one.
Why try to play down the job which has been done by the PJ and SY in the current investigation ... in my opinion Madeleine's case has at last been investigated with an efficiently by them which was not apparent in the first important months after her disappearance.
AC Rowley took pains to indicate that SY detectives were able to utilise the phone data only because Portuguese efforts had ensured it was there to be used. He did not mention the fact that SY were only investigating because the Portuguese had not.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:00:12 PM
I believe we jointly, regardless of our views, have actually thrown some light on SY's thinking. They do favour abduction and I agree but it has to be accepted that the abduction could have occurred outside as well as inside. Furthermore, if Madeleine did meet with a fatal accident in the street then abduction is not the correct term.
There is very strong evidence in the form of the two tracker dogs which, a matter of hours after the disappearance, independently followed her scent on a route from the apartment terminating across the road from mini reception. Did she get out and attempt to retrace her route to the kids club thinking her parents were there? Did she fall foul of someone?
Her/The scent vanished on the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception
This is the very car park that IMO the get-away car would have been parked.
However, I think the dogs followed the sweaty scent of Madeleines lifter. It seems highly likely to me that his /her scent would have been on the pink blanket and, if left out, also possibly on the towel which wiped the children down after their bath;
The sweaty smell of an adult would overpower the delicate scent of a youngster. I dont think the dogs that night were following Madeleines scent as much as the scent of her lifter.
The lifters scent could have been put down en route to the apartment OR after the event ... and I don't think that necessarily Madeleine was carried along that route.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 06:02:35 PM
Really.
For a crime that occurred in another country ?
Can we a citation to show that can happen ?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:04:03 PM
Really, for a crime that occurred in another country.
Can we a citation to show that can happen ?
didnt you know...
Resolving jurisdictional conflicts Where the offence occurred on a single territory
Generally, an offence will only be triable in the jurisdiction in which the offence takes place, unless there is a specific provision to ground jurisdiction, for instance where specific statutes enable the UK to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction:
sexual offences against children (section 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) A new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards. It is important to ensure that any prosecution is brought under the provision in force at the time the alleged conduct occured as the terms of the substantive provisions and details of the offences they cover are not identical; murder and manslaughter (subsection 9 and 10 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861)
In Britain they do ... in Portugal that would be the PJ's job. Between them I should imagine they would be capable of apprehending anyone the evidence merited arresting. European arrest warrants might be able to be used too?
I wouldn't have foreseen AC Rowley having a problem clarifying the situation should he have been asked the question ... I think the good working relationship built between the two national forces is designed to address such situations.
I think that level of cooperation is one of the positive outcomes of Madeleine's current investigation which might enable Joint Working Arrangements to be enacted should there be a future requirement, instead of the cumbersome methods which have eaten up so much time and effort in this one.
Why try to play down the job which has been done by the PJ and SY in the current investigation ... in my opinion Madeleine's case has at last been investigated with an efficiently by them which was not apparent in the first important months after her disappearance.
AC Rowley took pains to indicate that SY detectives were able to utilise the phone data only because Portuguese efforts had ensured it was there to be used. He did not mention the fact that SY were only investigating because the Portuguese had not.
Also the fact that both police forces are singing from the same hymn sheet with regard to the McCanns is very relevant IMO.
Quote from SY -
Neither the McCanns nor their friends are either suspects or persons of interest. End quote
Quote from the Deputy Director of the Judiciary Police, Pedro do Carmo
Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects. That statement remains: the parents are not suspects. Period. End quote
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:20:35 PM
So on what grounds could SY have jurisdiction here ?
The crime if any, is undetermined, AND , if one occurred , it was in Portugal.
its obvious what grounds they might be able to exercise jurisdiction in portugal if they had to...they could issue an arrest warrant
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 06:26:15 PM
Let's have the obvious grounds why SY would have jurisdiction and power of arrest, in a crime which hasn't been determined, and shows no signs of being determined. IMO, of course.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:29:57 PM
Let's have the obvious grounds why SY would have jurisdiction and power of arrest, in a crime which hasn't been determined, and shows no signs of being determined. IMO, of course.
Did you read the cite that you asked for If SY had reasonable suspicion and evidence that such a crime had been committed then they would have power to arrest if necessary Your initial statement was wrong
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 06:32:49 PM
Why would SY have preference over the Portuguese System.
Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 06:34:30 PM
As a reminder from ADMIN, yesterday.
I have been asked to intervene here so I will. Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban. I cannot make it any clearer than that. It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.
Admin
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 06:35:27 PM
Please also note, as per forum rules, goading comments will be removed.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:37:57 PM
its obvious what grounds they might be able to exercise jurisdiction in portugal if they had to...they could issue an arrest warrant
You seem to be confusing/combining two separate legal matters. A European Arrest Warrant is issued by one state requiring another member state to arrest a criminal suspect for transfer such that the person (suspect) can be put on trial in the issuing state.
In this instance jurisdiction will be Portugal unless the offence committed is one of three already listed in your post and the UK ask for jurisdiction on the basis the victim was a UK national. Place you bets.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 06:50:49 PM
You seem to be confusing/combining two separate legal matters. A European Arrest Warrant is issued by one state requiring another member state to arrest a criminal suspect for transfer such that the person (suspect) can be put on trial in the issuing state.
In this instance jurisdiction will be Portugal unless the offence committed is one of three already listed in your post and the UK ask for jurisdiction on the basis the victim was a UK national. Place you bets.
so in that instance SY would have the power of arrest via a EAW...which is exactly what I posted....so I am confusing nothing...thank you for confirming I am correct
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2017, 07:02:00 PM
so in that instance SY would have the power of arrest via a EAW...which is exactly what I posted....so I am confusing nothing...thank you for confirming I am correct
No, not to fast there... IF OG find an actual bona fide crime AND they have a suspect/s. 1. they have to contact PJ 2. PJ will consider if enough evidence is collected to prosecute 3 if they are satisfied- they- the PJ will arrest and charge, and prosecute IF there is not enough evidence- they will not arrest and the matter will be closed.
You are trying to make out that SY can just walk up to suspects in another country and arrest who they suspect of crime... err they can't.
PJ will have the last say in this matter. Supporters have no say or influence, and neither does the EU or British Government...
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 07:04:26 PM
No, not to fast there... IF OG find an actual bona fide crime AND they have a suspect/s. 1. they have to contact PJ 2. PJ will consider if enough evidence is collected to prosecute 3 if they are satisfied- they- the PJ will arrest and charge, and prosecute IF there is not enough evidence- they will not arrest and the matter will be closed.
You are trying to make out that SY can just walk up to suspects in another country and arrest who they suspect of crime... err they can't.
PJ will have the last say in this matter. Supporters have no say or influence, and neither does the EU or British Government...
never said any of that....best read the thread first
stephen said SY have no poswer of arrest...hes wrong...they do whether they would ever have to use them is a totally different point
in the unlikely event that portugal refused to arrest a suspect and SY had sufficient grounds ...SY could issue an EAW which means portugal would not have the final say
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 07:08:16 PM
It is not a game. You are a moderator and should endeavour to be neutral. In my opinion all signatures should fall under the caveats which the forum has agreed. Opinion should be stated as opinion.
Well, in that case remove the word 'abduction' from your signature.
Or there is a more simple solution.
No signatures by any posters.
I will ask John about this.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 07:16:45 PM
never said any of that....best read the thread first
stephen said SY have no poswer of arrest...hes wrong...they do whether they would ever have to use them is a totally different point
in the unlikely event that portugal refused to arrest a suspect and SY had sufficient grounds ...SY could issue an EAW which means portugal would not have the final say
From Here.http://ec.europa.eu/justice/criminal/recognition-decision/european-arrest-warrant/index_en.htm
Quote
The European Arrest Warrant (EAW), applied throughout the EU, replaced lengthy extradition procedures within the EU's territorial jurisdiction. It improves and simplifies judicial procedures designed to surrender people for the purpose of conducting a criminal prosecution or executing a custodial sentence or spell in detention.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2017, 07:17:59 PM
never said any of that....best read the thread first
stephen said SY have no poswer of arrest...hes wrong...they do whether they would ever have to use them is a totally different point
in the unlikely event that portugal refused to arrest a suspect and SY had sufficient grounds ...SY could issue an EAW which means portugal would not have the final say
I have read the thread, you are clearly confused or trying to sell a camel at a car show.
SY do not have any duristriction regarding the Maddie case- they cannot arrest anyone they think may have done something. Also to get an arrest warrant they have to present a case... and guess what- they don't have one in this instance.
Now on other matters regarding arresting UK citizens who commit sex crimes against children , they can arrest, with the indigenous police force in the country. As an example; sex gangs operating in EU, and the also arrest on landing, anyone who has been investigated abroad about such crimes and charge in this country. Gary Glitter is one promenant case.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:18:21 PM
I have read the thread, you are clearly confused or trying to sell a camel at a car show.
SY do not have any duristriction regarding the Maddie case- they cannot arrest anyone they think may have done something. Also to get an arrest warrant they have to present a case... and guess what- they don't have one in this instance.
Now on other matters regarding arresting UK citizens who commit sex crimes against children , they can arrest, with the indigenous police force in the country. As an example; sex gangs operating in EU, and the also arrest on landing, anyone who has been investigated abroad about such crimes and charge in this country. Gary Glitter is one promenant case.
im not at all confused...unlike some on this forum....Sy could issue a EAW which portugal would hav to comply with if they had sufficient grounds...and it isnt just for sex crimes...raed the cite
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 07:22:09 PM
Sorry people ... my bad ... I spoke out of turn I should have PM'd Stephen instead of criticising him on the thread.
Please may we return to the thread topic ... Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Thank you
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: barrier on June 02, 2017, 07:27:11 PM
im not at all confused...unlike some on this forum....Sy could issue a EAW which portugal would hav to comply with if they had sufficient grounds...and it isnt just for sex crimes...raed the cite
But why would they?
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:28:20 PM
im not at all confused...unlike some on this forum....Sy could issue a EAW which portugal would hav to comply with if they had sufficient grounds...and it isnt just for sex crimes...raed the cite
Let's put it this way ... if the Portuguese wished to arrest or even question a British subject ... do they just jump on the next flight and do the business? I do not think so.
British police have jurisdiction in Britain.
Portuguese police have jurisdiction in Portugal. Each require to go through formal legal channels if they wish to extradite anyone or even question anyone.
I think this line of discussion is way off topic on this thread.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:32:54 PM
Let's put it this way ... if the Portuguese wished to arrest or even question a British subject ... do they just jump on the next flight and do the business? I do not think so.
British police have jurisdiction in Britain.
Portuguese police have jurisdiction in Portugal. Each require to go through formal legal channels if they wish to extradite anyone or even question anyone.
I think this line of discussion is way off topic on this thread.
of course they have to go through proper legal channels....but they would have the power to force the arrest of a portuguese subject in the right circumstances...the uk has jurisdiction in portugal in certain circumstances
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 07:33:02 PM
Let's put it this way ... if the Portuguese wished to arrest or even question a British subject ... do they just jump on the next flight and do the business? I do not think so.
British police have jurisdiction in Britain.
Portuguese police have jurisdiction in Portugal. Each require to go through formal legal channels if they wish to extradite anyone or even question anyone.
I think this line of discussion is way off topic on this thread.
Well that Brietta is the second time we have agreed on a point. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 07:35:46 PM
Let's put it this way ... if the Portuguese wished to arrest or even question a British subject ... do they just jump on the next flight and do the business? I do not think so.
British police have jurisdiction in Britain.
Portuguese police have jurisdiction in Portugal. Each require to go through formal legal channels if they wish to extradite anyone or even question anyone.
I think this line of discussion is way off topic on this thread.
That would be why ILOR's were sent to be able to speak to the last 4 arguidos.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 07:46:40 PM
'An EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation), or enforcing a custodial sentence.[1] It can only be issued for offences carrying a maximum penalty of 1 year or more in prison. Where sentence has already been passed an EAW can only be issued if the prison term to be enforced is at least four months long.'
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:47:09 PM
'An EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation), or enforcing a custodial sentence.[1] It can only be issued for offences carrying a maximum penalty of 1 year or more in prison. Where sentence has already been passed an EAW can only be issued if the prison term to be enforced is at least four months long.'
so if SY wanted to prosecute someone they would have power of arrest via an EAW
so in certain circumstances SY would have powers of arrest
can we get back on topic...the point has been proved
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2017, 07:51:50 PM
Not with an investigation.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 07:53:26 PM
Let's put it this way ... if the Portuguese wished to arrest or even question a British subject ... do they just jump on the next flight and do the business? I do not think so.
British police have jurisdiction in Britain.
Portuguese police have jurisdiction in Portugal. Each require to go through formal legal channels if they wish to extradite anyone or even question anyone.
I think this line of discussion is way off topic on this thread.
The European Arrest Warrant is very simple. If the Portuguese police have enough evidence to issue a warrant for someones arrrest in relation to a crime which is acknowledged as a crime in both the requesting and the requested State then the British police have to arrest the individual concerned. They then go before a magistrate who decides if they can be extradited.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 08:43:51 PM
in the case of certain crimes they would ahve the power to arrest via european arrest warrant
Only for crimes committed in the UK. If someone is eventually found who abducted or harmed Madeleine it will be dealt with by the Portuguese legal system.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 08:49:03 PM
If someone is identified in the UK as having had an involvement in Madeleine's disappearance then they will be the subject of a Portuguese EAW and returned to Portugal to face trial. Please note that this will require new legislation after the UK leaves the EU.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: John on June 02, 2017, 08:53:51 PM
I will move these off topic posts to a new thread shortly so please continue to post responses.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 09:01:37 PM
Only for crimes committed in the UK. If someone is eventually found who abducted or harmed Madeleine it will be dealt with by the Portuguese legal system.
they do have jurisdiction for certain crimes but it would be very unlikely they would need to exercise it
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2017, 09:03:39 PM
so in that instance SY would have the power of arrest via a EAW...which is exactly what I posted....so I am confusing nothing...thank you for confirming I am correct
1 No 2 You were not.
Title: Re: Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 09:07:38 PM