Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 3044 times)

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Online Robittybob1

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Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2018, 09:43:11 PM »
Oh please ! We know there wasn’t a body confirmed but what do you think these specially trained dogs alerted to?
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline Snowgirl

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2018, 10:06:43 PM »
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
Yes of course !

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2018, 10:35:00 PM »
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
The dog definitely did not alert to the presence of a cadaver, past presence of a cadaver is a possibility, as is item or items contaminated with cadaver animal or human, as is false alerts caused by handler/dog error.
"Oh dear. Madeleine McCann trending. That's twitterspeak for 'And now, the absolute worst of humanity.'" -
David Baddiel

Offline Snowgirl

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2018, 11:51:09 PM »
The dog definitely did not alert to the presence of a cadaver, past presence of a cadaver is a possibility, as is item or items contaminated with cadaver animal or human, as is false alerts caused by handler/dog error.
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2018, 12:00:50 AM »
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .
Here we go round the Mulberry bush...
"Oh dear. Madeleine McCann trending. That's twitterspeak for 'And now, the absolute worst of humanity.'" -
David Baddiel

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2018, 01:05:18 AM »
Please stop posting that there was no evidence Sadie because that is untrue.

The only 'evidence' that he thought that he had, turned out to be untrue

He thought that Eddie and Keela had proved that Madeleine had died in 5A.  After much reference to various reports and documents, we now know that to be false. 

Apart from one spot by the place where a bedside table would have normally sat, the dogs did not identify anything alarming in 5A. 
The owner of 5A, Tasmin Silences grandpa, had died whilst living in 5A.  His death was in hospital, but the likely place that his mourning widow would have kept his pyjamas and likely his ashes would have been on the bedside table.


You cannot claim the nothings that the dogs came up with were evidence of any kind for a cadavar.

Was there any real evidence, John? 

Cite please


Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2018, 01:26:28 AM »
No, Sadie is completely wrong. The Portuguese AG would never have permitted the case to go as far as it did unless there was compelling evidence against the suspects. One has to remember that the police had at their disposal much more evidence over and above that made public. That evidence aside, the parents in refusing to cooperate fully in an investigation in which its principal aim was to find their own missing child was appalling and must have raised many eyebrows both in Faro and in London.

Oh really?

Was the evidence of the same quality as that used against Leonor Cipriano ?   8)><(

It seeme to me that the questions were aimed at trying to fit them up.  Amaral was in charge and he told Gerry a whopping lie to try and make him confess to something that neither he nor Kate had any part in.  That is the appalling thing about this case.  The Mccanns knew that Amaral was only looking for a dead Madeleine, not a living Madeleine.


The parents were quite correctly advised not to answer the questions and by this time it was very obvious, imo, that The Mccanns knew about what had happened in the Cipriano case. 


In th early days one could pick up on the internet  that Leandro Silva (Leonors partner) had notified The Mccanns of the injustices of the case and the brutality of what happened to Leonor.   Probably the Ambassader / Consul had also made them aware of the Cipriano case and of the injustices and torture in the Michael Cook case.

They must have known that the questions were in place to try and fit them up, in my opinion
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 01:28:37 AM by sadie »

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2018, 01:43:38 AM »
Surely you don't honestly think SY spent over £12 million and came up with no evidence whatsoever?

They have plenty of evidence, but the people they are dealing with are part of a mighty organisation, which appears a very benevelant one but this hides this black side of them    They are exceedingly well protected by status, wealth and power   All the above IMO

There are people out there, John, who are untouchables

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2018, 02:08:06 AM »
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal

Online Robittybob1

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Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2018, 05:07:51 AM »
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal
No not a properly slaughtered pig - no cadaverine. IMO
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2018, 07:01:46 AM »
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal

And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

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Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2018, 07:04:09 AM »
And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Eddie reacted to Blood.  Live people bleed.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2018, 07:10:14 AM »
Eddie reacted to Blood.  Live people bleed.

So does Keela

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.

The fact that there is other scientific methods being used may stop you recovering any DNA but if you try we'll see what happens. But she is very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He says Keela is "very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there".

Could you explain what causes Eddie's alerts when Keela does not, if you can Eleanor please.
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Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2018, 07:15:29 AM »
So does Keela

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.

The fact that there is other scientific methods being used may stop you recovering any DNA but if you try we'll see what happens. But she is very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He says Keela is "very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there".

Could you explain what causes Eddie's alerts when Keela does not, if you can Eleanor please.

Eddie also alerted to other body fluids from live people.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2018, 07:22:21 AM »
Eddie also alerted to other body fluids from live people.

Does Martin Grime say body fluids "from live people" Eleanor?

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any


Could you explain what "body fluids" would he alert to, excluding blood of course.  The only one I can think of is semen that would come from a live person and the positioning of some of Eddie's alerts make that extremely unlikely.
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

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