Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 255808 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #315 on: November 04, 2018, 02:33:12 PM »
In my opinion it's those who make these claims who need to provide 'expert cites' to prove their points.
I think Grime has already confirmed that the dogs will alert to a number of those things, not least I seem to recall him excusing a dog alert to a tissue that had been used in an episode of outdoor hanky panky.  If a dog will alert to that, then all bets are off IMO.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:40:24 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #316 on: November 04, 2018, 02:39:32 PM »
In my opinion it's those who make these claims who need to provide 'expert cites' to prove their points.

You made a claim the dogs evidence has been used in a English court and provided no cite

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #317 on: November 04, 2018, 02:42:27 PM »
There will always be cases where no forensic evidence can be found. In some of those cases circumstantial evidence can be used to secure a conviction. Allowing the use of alerts by cadaver dogs as part of that evidence has helped to  secure convictions in the US, Scotland and England. In at least two cases the perpetrator has eventually confessed that they did indeed commit the crime. In my opinion that justifies permitting such evidence to be heard.

Cite for England

Offline barrier

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #318 on: November 04, 2018, 02:47:06 PM »
Aren't dog trained to find cadavers and / or forensic evidence?  How well did they do at that in the Madeleine McCann case?

Are you referring to the ones used at the digs in 2014,not very well would be an answer.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #319 on: November 04, 2018, 02:47:24 PM »
There are so many inventive minds posting here. Taking notice of their suggestions would make the use of cadaver dogs a complete waste of time in my opinion. If they alert to urine, cooked pork, cremains, garden fertilizer and all sorts of other substances then they would be of no use to any police force.

What police officers know, of course, is that cadaver dogs alert to cadavers and the smell thereof. That's why they invest in them and their trainers and handlers and bring them to crime scenes.

I am basically talking about Eddie.  He was originally trained as a VRD, blood and all.  He was then subjected to further training, which I suspect confused him.  He was an experiment which wasn't really fair.
He was never a Cadaver dog as such.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #320 on: November 04, 2018, 02:53:31 PM »
Nothing confused him at FBI body farm to achieve amazing results.

FBI Agent John Parrish said dogs such as Eddie, a 7-year-old English springer spaniel, are used in "violent crime matters," such as the Parker case.

He also said search dogs assisted authorities in April and provided valuable help. The additional help marks a "new phase of the investigation," Agent Parrish said.

"We wanted to bring in Mr. Grime because he is renowned for his ability to do certain things," Mr. Parrish said. "We (will) go to areas that are of investigative interest to us and not only eliminate (leads, but) follow up on leads."

Mr. Grime said he and Eddie will help formulate a strategy and find evidence, but officials would not comment on when or where new searches will be conducted.

"He is a trained victim recovery dog," Mr. Grime said. "He is a wide-area screening asset that will locate human remains either in the whole or part or down to the cellular level."

Jonathan Wilson, Mrs. Parker's brother-in-law, said the family is "upbeat" that authorities brought in the best.

"It is like bringing your pinch hitter up to bat at the bottom of the ninth," Mr. Wilson said. "We are really optimistic."

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2007/09/international-investigator-k-9-dog-join.html

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Snowgirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #321 on: November 04, 2018, 03:02:25 PM »

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #322 on: November 04, 2018, 03:26:27 PM »
Are you referring to the ones used at the digs in 2014,not very well would be an answer.
I'm referring to all dogs employed in the Madeleine McCann case actually.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline barrier

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2018, 03:32:19 PM »
I'm referring to all dogs employed in the Madeleine McCann case actually.


It could be argued the humans haven't faired any better either.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #325 on: November 04, 2018, 04:14:05 PM »

It could be argued the humans haven't faired any better either.
Sure, fill your boots.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #326 on: November 04, 2018, 05:01:26 PM »
Did Eddie alert in the toilet?
He preferred to shut the door. 
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #327 on: November 04, 2018, 05:10:18 PM »
Sorry, I thought we were talking about Bianca Jones.  Did they find her corpse?
In the Bianca Jones case -
No they kept on seeing her alive.  There seemed to be so many closely related children involved I don't know if that person knew exactly who they were looking at.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 08:00:48 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #328 on: November 04, 2018, 05:14:23 PM »
The twins were in nappies. The nappies would contain urine as the baby wipes would also. Those nappies would have been put in the bin.

There was no alert to the bin or the twins cots.
The cots would have been removed from the bedroom by that stage.  Eddie is there 3 months after the event.
The cots are brought into the rooms by Mark Warner just for the duration of the McCann's stay.    The owner of the apartment didn't own the cots.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 06:05:08 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #329 on: November 05, 2018, 11:17:05 AM »
In the Bianca Jones case -
No they kept on seeing her alive.  There seemed to be so many closely related children involved I don't know if that person knew exactly who they were looking at.

 There was a lot more to the Bianca Jones case than people are making out. The killer was not just convicted because of the dogs alone. There was a great deal of circumstantial evidence ( of which the dog alerts were included) and the witnesses who supposedly saw her alive afterwards were deemed unreliable for various reasons.

  DiAndre Lane admitted beating her that night and early morning, he had a 2 feet long stick that he had made especially for beating his kids.  His girlfriend heard 'screams' as he was doing it.   He felt the need to admit that after the beating, Bianca 'fell and banged her head' and he hit her more to keep her awake in case she fell unconscious. In the morning he put her in the car seat and his other kids said she was 'silent with a blanket over he face'. One of the other kids also testified about her fathers violence and injuries she was caused by having clothing stuffed in her mouth whilst being beaten.  Then she disappeared in a 45 minute period that Lane could not account for.
 
The dogs methods and training was supported in court by Rex Stockham who was in charge of canine training at the FBI. The court was satisfied that training was sufficient and the methods used meant the evidence could be admitted. Stockham was a forensic scientist and he wrote various peer reviewed papers on dog training.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

"At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.

Grime testified as an expert in the training and employment of cadaver dogs. According to Grime, he is a full-time contractor for the FBI. Grime worked with Morse, a dog “trained to search for and detect the odor of decomposing human remains,” and Keela, “trained to search for and locate specifically human blood.” Grime testified that there was no methodology to test the dogs' responses when there is no recoverable material, and that the odor of decomposition may transfer if a person touches a dead body and then touches something else.

According to Grime, on December 4, 2011, he took his dogs to an enclosed warehouse that contained 31 vehicles. Grime was told that Bianca was in one of the vehicles at the time of the carjacking, but was not told which vehicle was involved. Morse alerted Grime to the presence of the odor of decomposition in the back seat and trunk of a silver Grand Marquis. Keela later screened the car and did not alert Grime to the presence of human blood.

Grime testified that, after the vehicle screening, he took the dogs to an administrative building to screen the items removed from Dungey's car. Grime did not know where the objects were located in the building, and the objects had been placed in a room filled with “all sorts of things.” Morse alerted Grime to the odor of decomposition in Bianca's car seat and a bag containing Bianca's blanket. Grime later took the dogs to Dungey's house. Morse alerted him to the odor of decomposition in a room that contained bunk beds and a closet without a door."

"......In Norwood, this Court held that tracking dog evidence is sufficiently reliable if the proponent of the evidence shows four things:

(1) the handler was qualified to use the dog; (2) the dog was trained and accurate in tracking humans; (3) the dog was placed on the trail where circumstances indicate the alleged guilty party to have been; and, (4) the trail had not become so stale or contaminated as to be beyond the dog's competency to follow it. [16 ]

We reject Lane's argument that, because chemical evidence cannot corroborate whether there was decomposition at the locations Morse identified in this case, the evidence must be excluded as unreliable. Clearly, the four-part test adopted by this Court to ensure the reliability of tracking dog evidence does not exactly correlate to the use of cadaver dogs. However, cadaver dog evidence is not significantly different from other forms of tracking dog evidence. Tracking dogs and cadaver dogs both use a precise sense of smell to identify scents that are outside the range of human ability to detect. Scientific devices can no more follow the scent left on a piece of discarded clothing from the scene of a robbery to a person's home than they can identify the smell of decomposing human remains. Just as it is not a reason to exclude all tracking dog evidence, the lack of scientific verification of the presence of a specific scent is not a reason to exclude cadaver dog evidence in a blanket fashion. We conclude that the trial court must instead consider the reliability of the cadaver dog evidence in each case."

  So I don't think the dog evidence was relied on too heavily, or included in the trial without thorough assessment.
D'Andre Lane was proven to be a habitual abuser of his kids and a liar. The dog evidence supports that he lied and  that Bianca died as the result of his abuse. In this case Rex Stockam estimated the dogs of having a 90% + accuracy rate , the dog evidence was taken on a case by case basis depending on the accuracy of the training methods and other factors.  I don't see any reason why this could not be done in the McCann case.