The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[AnneGuedes]

 The fact remains that they weren't even arrested.

Rachel, you very often conclude your posts with this remark. Are you fearing for them ? I bet my head they'll never be arrested, even if eventually proven to have disposed of Madeleine's body (for whatever obscure reason). Not only because prescription exists, but because they're not dangerous for others, even for their kids (surely never more left alone anywhere). Either they were charged rapidly (mainly to avoid copycats) or they'd never be. Especially in such a delicate case, evidence has to be strong. It wasn't the case and any threat of conviction (imo) is obsolete.

[ferryman]

Getting back to the substance of the thread title

How  are the independent witness statements that place Gerry McCann  away  from the tapas bar at 10pm to be viewed ?

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira  for instance    (  the waiter who served the tapas  group their meals that night )

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry

According to this independent witness,  then,  it was indeed possible for Gerry McCann to have been crossing paths  with the Smith family at  22.05   

But you are so wrong, the very same waiter Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm.  He confirmed that the entire group of 9 sat down to dinner.

Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong.  Ricardo confirmed in a later statement that the person was Russell O'Brien who was away from the table for quite some time.  As it happens, Russell was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40.  Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.  Obviously the waiter was wanting away home and was too pleased at being delayed.

Now lets see, 9 meals delivered to a table for 9 people and the only individuals who were absent were absent for a matter of minutes at a time doing regular child checks.

Another independent witness comes up trumps.   


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

Thanks for that, John.

Some important detail there I'd missed.

[ferryman]

John says:

...Russell was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40.

Jez Wilkins in his report says that he is certain he saw Jane Tanner, alas, not at the crucial time of his meeting with Gerry but a short time (if memory serves right) later.

That is crucial because, at one time, a rumour circulated that she never left the table at all that evening ...

From Jez Wilkins' statement:

Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.

[John]

 The fact remains that they weren't even arrested.

Rachel, you very often conclude your posts with this remark. Are you fearing for them ? I bet my head they'll never be arrested, even if eventually proven to have disposed of Madeleine's body (for whatever obscure reason). Not only because prescription exists, but because they're not dangerous for others, even for their kids (surely never more left alone anywhere). Either they were charged rapidly (mainly to avoid copycats) or they'd never be. Especially in such a delicate case, evidence has to be strong. It wasn't the case and any threat of conviction (imo) is obsolete.

But the evidence is strong Anne, it's just that for whatever reason some people choose to believe there was a conspiracy by nine people to cover something up when independent witness corroboration says differently.

There isn't a single witness that can put Gerry McCann anywhere that evening other than at or near to the Ocean Club.  That I am afraid is the bottom line in all of this.  The Smiths sighting had nothing whatsoever to do with Gerry McCann.

[faithlilly]

@ John

This part of the statement you posted is particularly interesting :

'He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

So Gerry could have been gone from the able for some time without the witness having noticed.

To be honest I can't see how the statement furthers the cause of Gerry being at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.

[ferryman]

@ John

This part of the statement you posted is particularly interesting :

'He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

So Gerry could have been gone from the able for some time without the witness having noticed.

To be honest I can't see how the statement furthers the cause of Gerry being at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.

but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

In much the same way as it is possible that Martians live on Mars ...

[Redblossom]

Ferryman, according to your own quote, Mr Wilkins stated he saw Jane Tanner when he first ventured out, which was around 8.30pm.That makes it before his chat with Gerry Mccann and not after.

[ferryman]

Ferryman, according to your own quote, Mr Wilkins stated he saw Jane Tanner when he first ventured out, which was around 8.30pm.That makes it before his chat with Gerry Mccann and not after.

Indeed.  Before rather than after.

[AnneGuedes]

 The fact remains that they weren't even arrested.

Rachel, you very often conclude your posts with this remark. Are you fearing for them ? I bet my head they'll never be arrested, even if eventually proven to have disposed of Madeleine's body (for whatever obscure reason). Not only because prescription exists, but because they're not dangerous for others, even for their kids (surely never more left alone anywhere). Either they were charged rapidly (mainly to avoid copycats) or they'd never be. Especially in such a delicate case, evidence has to be strong. It wasn't the case and any threat of conviction (imo) is obsolete.

But the evidence is strong Anne, it's just that for whatever reason some people choose to believe there was a conspiracy by nine people to cover something up when independent witness corroboration says differently.

There isn't a single witness that can put Gerry McCann anywhere that evening other than at or near to the Ocean Club.  That I am afraid is the bottom line in all of this.  The Smiths sighting had nothing whatsoever to do with Gerry McCann.

No, John, there's no strong evidence. If there was we wouldn't be here !
I'm not a conspirational fan at all. The McCann case, imo simple, is above this kind of speculation. But one has to admit that untruths, to speak like the AG, discrepancies and moreover refusal to answer questions (possibly a pure lawyer mistake) and to reconstruct (possibly an arrangement) fed conspiracy theories. Not to mention the media.
You know very well that "the Smiths sighting had nothing whatsoever to do with Gerry McCann" is only a possibility and your opinion. Turn it into a fact needs evidence. If it were easy there's a long time any shadow of a doubt against the McCanns would have vanished.

[Redblossom]

Ferryman, according to your own quote, Mr Wilkins stated he saw Jane Tanner when he first ventured out, which was around 8.30pm.That makes it before his chat with Gerry Mccann and not after.

Indeed.  Before rather than after.

So that quote bears no relation to the rumour that Jane Tanner never left the table that night. Incidentally, it was not a rumour, but the opinion of a Spanish American detective who travelled out to PDL, interviewed the Tapas Bar staff and appeared in a documentary about the case, as well as on numerous TV news specials. Why he formed that opinion I don't recall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4crZrHLJUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Puffin]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present. 

[ferryman]

Ferryman, according to your own quote, Mr Wilkins stated he saw Jane Tanner when he first ventured out, which was around 8.30pm.That makes it before his chat with Gerry Mccann and not after.

Indeed.  Before rather than after.

So that quote bears no relation to the rumour that Jane Tanner never left the table that night. Incidentally, it was not a rumour, but the opinion of a Spanish American detective who travelled out to PDL, interviewed the Tapas Bar staff and appeared in a documentary about the case, as well as on numerous TV news specials. Why he formed that opinion I don't recall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4crZrHLJUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Beg your pardon, yes, the timing was too early to verify that Jane left the restaurant during the evening.

But the assumption that she didn't was based, purely, on absence of comment that she had.

Why should anyone comment?

[faithlilly]

@ John

Gerry would have been aware the time of death would have been able to be established relatively accurately. Therefore if the body was found and the time of death established it would be obvious Madeleine was already dead by the time the McCanns returned from the tapas.

[AnneGuedes]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present.

I hate to repeat it, John, but in the dead of night, when everybody sleeps, the item could have been too cold to deposit in a narrow place. Doctors know it.

[John]

@ John

This part of the statement you posted is particularly interesting :

'He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

So Gerry could have been gone from the able for some time without the witness having noticed.

To be honest I can't see how the statement furthers the cause of Gerry being at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.

You cannot justify speculation by posting a negative.  Lots of people may have done certain things or could have done certain things but unless it is evidenced and corroborated then it still remains speculation and worst of all GOSSIP.

The waiter clearly recalls delivering 9 meals for 9 people and being asked to take one back for Russell.  Had anyone left the table for a greater time than 10 minutes he would have noticed it.  The fact that he didn't see anyone leave the table is evidence in itself.

For Gerry to have gone to the apartment, walked down town by the not-so-scenic-route, done whatever you are suggesting he did and returned by the same route whilst remaining clean and undishevelled he would have to had been away for at least 20 minutes.  That absence in anyone's book would have been noticed by a waiter who was serving tables and providing drinks for his guests.