Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118179 times)

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Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #540 on: July 27, 2013, 05:33:18 PM »
Excellent rebuttal skills! Keep up the good work!

 8((()*/

Less is more.

Are the McCanns still "Arguidos"?

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #541 on: July 27, 2013, 05:36:20 PM »
Less is more.

Are the McCanns still "Arguidos"?

No, and they could not be in a shelved investigation.

But they are still suspects in the child's disappearance in Portugal.

Following your less is more lead here's a question for you......

How do suspects rule themselves out or eliminate themselves from a police enquiry?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #542 on: July 27, 2013, 05:46:43 PM »
No, and they could not be in a shelved investigation.

But they are still suspects in the child's disappearance in Portugal.

Following your less is more lead here's a question for you......

How do suspects rule themselves out or eliminate themselves from a police enquiry?

Once a professional took over, and realised what a hash his predecessor had made, quite easily.  The PJ investigated the McCanns, found they had no evidence of any value and the McCanns were released from their Arguido status and therefore riuled out. 

If they were still "suspects" then they would either still be arguidos pending charge or would have been charged. 


Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #543 on: July 27, 2013, 06:01:29 PM »
Once a professional took over, and realised what a hash his predecessor had made, quite easily.  The PJ investigated the McCanns, found they had no evidence of any value and the McCanns were released from their Arguido status and therefore riuled out. 

If they were still "suspects" then they would either still be arguidos pending charge or would have been charged.

So using this logic:

Quote
The PJ investigated the McCanns, found they had no evidence of any value and the McCanns were released from their Arguido status and therefore riuled out. 

Were the killer's of Stephen Lawrence ruled out as suspects in 1993? After all they were not convicted then?

Quote
If they were still "suspects" then they would either still be arguidos pending charge or would have been charged.

Please explain this comment in relation to the Lawrence killer's cited above who were "cleared" in 1993 but subsequently convicted in 2012.

Your logic does not explain this case.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #544 on: July 27, 2013, 06:02:58 PM »
Less is more.

Are the McCanns still "Arguidos"?
You're kidding. What are courts for ? To put an end to cases. Societies can't afford dragging old cold cases that undermine their dynamism.
Bringing suspects to courts without enough evidence is time and money consuming in vain.
The McCanns had various opportunities, the first was the reconstruction, the second an inquiry, to clean their name from any involvement. They were given a choice because there was no evidence of their killing their child. Otherwise the magistrate on top of the AG would have required a contradictory inquiry. No doubt about that.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #545 on: July 27, 2013, 06:07:00 PM »
so you agree that the McCanns cannot prove their innocence and therefore to expect them to is ridiculous.
I have no preconceived idea re the McCanns. All my ideas are post conceived, ie based on what I have heard re the case

I agree that the Mccann's innocence has not been proven hence the Assistant Chief Constable's comments coupled with the AG report.

From your posts all i can see, like most mcCann supporters, is that all your post conceived ideas are based squarely on the basis that the mccann's are innocent, and all subsequent ideas have to work around that over arching ideology

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #546 on: July 27, 2013, 06:14:41 PM »
I agree that the Mccann's innocence has not been proven hence the Assistant Chief Constable's comments coupled with the AG report.

From your posts all i can see, like most mcCann supporters, is that all your post conceived ideas are based squarely on the basis that the mccann's are innocent, and all subsequent ideas have to work around that over arching ideology

Could you tell me in what context the Asst CC made that comment please..  I have looked but can't find it.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #547 on: July 27, 2013, 06:17:57 PM »
I'm happy with the believers insisting that the McCanns are innocent. I'm happy too with the idea Madeleine was abducted. The trouble is the believers' refusal to examine another window of opportunity for the abduction, whereas the Smiths' carrier sounds much more like the right one.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #548 on: July 27, 2013, 06:31:06 PM »
Could you tell me in what context the Asst CC made that comment please..  I have looked but can't find it.

On July 7 2008 Mrs Justice Hogg gave judgement in the Family Division of the High Court regarding the attempt by Kate & Gerry McCann to gain access to all the Leicester Police documents regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The judgement was by agreement between the parties and was made in open court.

M/S Kate McCann in her book Madeleine has now provided an excerpt from the official submission of Leicester Police to the court regarding the matter and outlining the reasons why they could not agree to provide the documents. Signed by the assistant chief constable of Leicestershire it runs:

"While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #549 on: July 27, 2013, 06:33:08 PM »
Once a professional took over, and realised what a hash his predecessor had made, quite easily.  The PJ investigated the McCanns, found they had no evidence of any value and the McCanns were released from their Arguido status and therefore riuled out. 

If they were still "suspects" then they would either still be arguidos pending charge or would have been charged.

To add....

Complete and utter hogwash, which has been debunked umpteen times and supported with examples in this thread. 

But you keep thinking that's the case if it helps.

The rest of us know the reality.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #550 on: July 27, 2013, 06:47:19 PM »
So using this logic:

Were the killer's of Stephen Lawrence ruled out as suspects in 1993? After all they were not convicted then?

Please explain this comment in relation to the Lawrence killer's cited above who were "cleared" in 1993 but subsequently convicted in 2012.

Your logic does not explain this case.

I think you will need to explain why you think the two cases have any parallel.   I can see no similairity whatever.

The fact that the PJ have not managed to find any evidence against the McCanns and they have been released from auguido status is teh fatal falw in your arugument.

I happily accept that you may be utterly convinced that the McCanns are still suspects in the eyes of the Portuguese ploice and possibly some members of the judiciary, and that some members here support that argument. It is is free world, and you are entitled to your opinon.

By the same token, I assume that you will allow that I choose to interpet the facts differently.  You do seem to have a problem with posters here disagreeing with you.     


Offline sadie

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #551 on: July 27, 2013, 06:59:24 PM »
I'm happy with the believers insisting that the McCanns are innocent. I'm happy too with the idea Madeleine was abducted. The trouble is the believers' refusal to examine another window of opportunity for the abduction, whereas the Smiths' carrier sounds much more like the right one.
Just how does the Smiths carrier sound better than Janes carrier?

Sensible reasons please

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #552 on: July 27, 2013, 07:27:39 PM »
I think you will need to explain why you think the two cases have any parallel.   I can see no similairity whatever.

Really? The parallels in terms of what we are discussing i would have thought are obvious.

Ok then in a nutshell.

The initial suspects in the Lawrence case were not taken to court because there was no evidence against them (according to the police) at that time that could have been presented to a court.

Despite this they still remained suspects in terms of the investigation because the police did not look for anyone else and shelved the case.

Now using your logic you would say that they have been "cleared" but that is not the case becuase they were later convicted of the crime.

How can you be "cleared" and then later convicted?

So it is common practice for suspects to remain as suspects if and despite there being no evidence against them at the point of the case being shelved.

The same remains with the McCann's in Portugal. There was no evidence gathered according to the prosecutor that the Mccann's had committed a crime but at the same time they had not proven they were innocent to the investigation. The case was shelved and remains at that very same point in Portugal. If new evidence had come to light showing the McCann's innocence the case would have been reopened.

The important point here is that the investigation was incomplete and therefore the PJ were prevented from completing it by the refusal of the group to take part in the reconstruction.

So an incomplete investigation had not gathered evidence in the prosecutor's view that the Mccann's had committed a crime.

The fact that the PJ have not managed to find any evidence against the McCanns and they have been released from auguido status is teh fatal falw in your arugument.

Not at all. It is the fatal flaw in your understanding of my argument.

As per the Lawrence case it took 19 years to find sufficient evidence against the perpetrators and for them to be convicted.

19 years! So it is clear from that case the lack of evidence did not stop them being suspects and they were not cleared.

The Arguido status is a formal suspect status. I believe it can only be applied to someone for a specific length of time.

Given the group's refusal to participate in the reconstruction, the investigation was "disturbed" and there was no prospect of gathering sufficient evidence to put before a court, hence the shelving and removal of Arguido status.

That does not change the fact that the Mccann's are still "suspects" in Portugal (given they have been unable to demonstrate their innocence) but not formal suspects as the law does not allow it.

In exactly the same way that the Lawrence killers remained suspects for the 19 years between the murder and their conviction.

I happily accept that you may be utterly convinced that the McCanns are still suspects in the eyes of the Portuguese ploice and possibly some members of the judiciary, and that some members here support that argument. It is is free world, and you are entitled to your opinon.

By the same token, I assume that you will allow that I choose to interpet the facts differently.  You do seem to have a problem with posters here disagreeing with you.     

No i look at the facts, which were stated in the Family Court and by the Ag report and i have explained ad infinitum the reasons for the comments regarding demonstrating innocence and i have given you example cases which illustrate my reasoning.

You on the other hand have not been able to rebut my assertions nor provide any evidence or examples to support your assertion.

So i have no problem in people having different opinions.

I have a problem when people bring false and misleading opinions which are not supported by facts or evidence simply so they can cling to the belief that the McCann's are innocent.

I have a problem with people when presented with logic and reasoning, and examples and evidence who refuse to change their beliefs but are not able to support said beliefs and opinions with facts and evidence.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 07:29:32 PM by Albertini »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #553 on: July 27, 2013, 08:56:01 PM »
But the AG report specfically stated they failed to demonstrate their innocence.

How do you explain that?

I will explain it. the AG report is quite consistent, it was written by an idiot.

Any idiot could see that the McCanns had no criminal part in Maddies fate and only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #554 on: July 27, 2013, 08:57:10 PM »
Do you really want to suggest a parallel?  Especially given that the initial investigation was not exactly the Met's finest hour.   And the suspects were a racist gang of thugs.  Who it seems were possibly "protected " by the police because they were white and the victim was black.  I am not sure the PJ would welcome such a comparison, but so be it. 

In the Lawrence case, the five suspects were arrested after a fortnight.  The charges were dropped a couple of months later after the CPS cited "insufficient evidence".  A subsequent private prosecution also failed.  The inquest jury returned a verdict after 30 minutes' deliberation of unlawful killing "in a completely unprovoked racist attack by five white youths"; this finding went beyond the bounds of their instructions.

It was suggested during the course of the Lawrence enquiry that the murder was racially motivated and that Lawrence was killed because he was black, and that the handling of the case by the police and Crown Prosecution Service was affected by issues of race. A public inquiry was held in 1998,[4] headed by Sir William Macpherson, that examined the original Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) investigation and concluded that the force was "institutionally racist" 

A BBC investigation alleged that the murder inquiry's Det. Sgt. John Davidson had taken money from known drug smuggler Clifford Norris, the father of David Norris, a chief suspect in the investigation.[67] Neil Putnam, a former corrupt police detective turned whistleblower, told a BBC investigation that Clifford Norris was paying Mr Davidson to obstruct the case and to protect the suspects.

You are correct that eventually two of the initial suspects were convicted. 

In the McCann case, the "suspects" did not even reach the stage of being arrested.  And indeed were only constitued arguidos because by mid September an upcome change in the regulations would have raised the bar significantly (i.e. that there would actually need to be evidence in order for the police to make an arguido).


Attorney-general Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro said the 14-month investigation had uncovered no evidence of a crime by any of the suspects or "arguidos".

You say:  I have a problem when people bring false and misleading opinions which are not supported by facts or evidence simply so they can cling to the belief that the McCann's are innocent.

I have a problem with people when presented with logic and reasoning, and examples and evidence who refuse to change their beliefs but are not able to support said beliefs and opinions with facts and evidence.


That, I am afraid, exists only in your opinion.  My interpetation of the facts, and of the law differ from yours.  The McCanns are under no obligation to "prove their innocence". 

If you have a problem with that, then it is your problem.