Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 340685 times)

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Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #450 on: April 06, 2014, 02:44:15 AM »
Both Eddie and Keela were taken to the USA by Martin for training.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #451 on: April 06, 2014, 09:02:00 AM »

@ John
In view of M. Grime's opinion and your own  - both bolded below, can you say why he is no longer concerned about discussing the case on a public forum - albeit through a 3rd party - particularly as his chosen mouthpiece i.e. Serendipity is an obvious  'sceptic' and whose posts (now whooshed - but possibly screencapped ?) left readers in little doubt of which side of the fence he apparently sits.
 
Is he not concerned that should he have to attend a court case in the future  his participation on this public forum -albeit by proxy -   has compromised his position as an unbiased reliable witness?
 
 
Quote from John
: February 17, 2014, 01:13:25 PM »
We asked Mr Grime to comment on the various accusations but he stated that as the case was still a live ongoing investigation that it would be inappropriate for him to do so.  It could well be that he will have to give evidence at some stage if the case comes to trial. End

 
Johns post of 4thApril
Thank you for replying Serendipity. For far too long Martin has been denied an opportunity to put the record straight.  The claims that he never took dogs to the USA are malicious fabrications.  Can you please confirm which dog or dogs made the trip with Martin?
End.

 
 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #452 on: April 06, 2014, 09:35:53 AM »
@ John
In view of M. Grime's opinion and your own  - both bolded below, can you say why he is no longer concerned about discussing the case on a public forum - albeit through a 3rd party - particularly as his chosen mouthpiece i.e. Serendipity is an obvious  'sceptic' and whose posts (now whooshed - but possibly screencapped ?) left readers in little doubt of which side of the fence he apparently sits.
 
Is he not concerned that should he have to attend a court case in the future  his participation on this public forum -albeit by proxy -   has compromised his position as an unbiased reliable witness?
 
 
Quote from John
: February 17, 2014, 01:13:25 PM »
We asked Mr Grime to comment on the various accusations but he stated that as the case was still a live ongoing investigation that it would be inappropriate for him to do so.  It could well be that he will have to give evidence at some stage if the case comes to trial. End

 
Johns post of 4thApril
Thank you for replying Serendipity. For far too long Martin has been denied an opportunity to put the record straight.  The claims that he never took dogs to the USA are malicious fabrications.  Can you please confirm which dog or dogs made the trip with Martin?
End.

Good post, Benice.

Two FOI answers by South Yorkshire Police state this training in America was never confirmed because a report that would have confirmed it was never received by SYP and that no information is held.

In yet a third FOI answer, they state that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

And yes, I imagine Martin would be unhappy about being quoted on an internet forum.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #453 on: April 06, 2014, 10:06:17 AM »
@ John
In view of M. Grime's opinion and your own  - both bolded below, can you say why he is no longer concerned about discussing the case on a public forum - albeit through a 3rd party - particularly as his chosen mouthpiece i.e. Serendipity is an obvious  'sceptic' and whose posts (now whooshed - but possibly screencapped ?) left readers in little doubt of which side of the fence he apparently sits.
 
Is he not concerned that should he have to attend a court case in the future  his participation on this public forum -albeit by proxy -   has compromised his position as an unbiased reliable witness?
 
 
Quote from John
: February 17, 2014, 01:13:25 PM »
We asked Mr Grime to comment on the various accusations but he stated that as the case was still a live ongoing investigation that it would be inappropriate for him to do so.  It could well be that he will have to give evidence at some stage if the case comes to trial. End

 
Johns post of 4thApril
Thank you for replying Serendipity. For far too long Martin has been denied an opportunity to put the record straight.  The claims that he never took dogs to the USA are malicious fabrications.  Can you please confirm which dog or dogs made the trip with Martin?
End.

I've never seen Serendipity claim that she represents the opinion of Martin Grime. Surely she is entitled to her own opinion?

As for the info on the dogs, I've only seem her supply facts.

Saying that Mr Grime retired on a certain date does not imply any bias whatsoever.

I'm also not aware of any claims that Serendipity speaks for Mr Grime, only that she has knowledge of some of the facts that have been misrepresented, like the retirement one above.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #454 on: April 06, 2014, 11:16:08 AM »
The dogs have been discussed extensively on many threads.as you well know.

If you weren't worried about the ''dogs' you would not be discussing them ?

As to statistics davel, you know that well worn cliche. 8)-)))

As I'm not accused or even a suspect I am not at all worried about the dogs. I just get sick of people who haven't got a clue posting rubbish...that's why I post

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #455 on: April 06, 2014, 11:18:52 AM »
I've never seen Serendipity claim that she represents the opinion of Martin Grime. Surely she is entitled to her own opinion?

As for the info on the dogs, I've only seem her supply facts.

Saying that Mr Grime retired on a certain date does not imply any bias whatsoever.

I'm also not aware of any claims that Serendipity speaks for Mr Grime, only that she has knowledge of some of the facts that have been misrepresented, like the retirement one above.

I don't think you could have read all the posts...I seem to remember some where she claimed to be in direct touch with grime

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #456 on: April 06, 2014, 11:19:52 AM »
As I'm not accused or even a suspect I am not at all worried about the dogs. I just get sick of people who haven't got a clue posting rubbish...that's why I post

Who are you trying to kid ? 8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #457 on: April 06, 2014, 11:32:02 AM »
The dogs have been discussed extensively on many threads.as you well know.

If you weren't worried about the ''dogs' you would not be discussing them ?

As to statistics davel, you know that well worn cliche. 8)-)))

Would you suggest I didn't post re the dog's and just let posters who you agree with make their points unchallenged...does that seem a reasonable option to you?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #458 on: April 06, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
I've never seen Serendipity claim that she represents the opinion of Martin Grime. Surely she is entitled to her own opinion?

As for the info on the dogs, I've only seem her supply facts.

Saying that Mr Grime retired on a certain date does not imply any bias whatsoever.

I'm also not aware of any claims that Serendipity speaks for Mr Grime, only that she has knowledge of some of the facts that have been misrepresented, like the retirement one above.




Quote from: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 01:06:19 AM

John 

I think it is time you clarified that our member,  Serendipity,  has   established a credible connection with Martin Grime

This member has, kindly,  shared that information with me,  and  if that same information has been shared with you  too,   then please speak up and offer your support 

I'm sorry,  Serendipity,  for breaking a confidence,  but I feel it is necessary  that your contribution is recognised as valid

Response from john




Yes, Serendipity is 100% genuine and is well placed to answer questions about the deployment of the dogs Eddie and Keela.




Just so there can be no doubts about the claims made re serendipity
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 11:44:34 AM by davel »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #459 on: April 06, 2014, 11:43:02 AM »
Would you suggest I didn't post re the dog's and just let posters who you agree with make their points unchallenged...does that seem a reasonable option to you?

As a mccann supporter your views are well known.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #460 on: April 06, 2014, 11:59:22 AM »



Quote from: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 01:06:19 AM

John 

I think it is time you clarified that our member,  Serendipity,  has   established a credible connection with Martin Grime

This member has, kindly,  shared that information with me,  and  if that same information has been shared with you  too,   then please speak up and offer your support 

I'm sorry,  Serendipity,  for breaking a confidence,  but I feel it is necessary  that your contribution is recognised as valid

Response from john




Yes, Serendipity is 100% genuine and is well placed to answer questions about the deployment of the dogs Eddie and Keela.




Just so there can be no doubts about the claims made re serendipity

I've also seen the evidence and am well aware of who Serendipity is. That doesn't mean she is not allowed to have an opinion of her own on the case, nor is her opinion necessarily that of Mr Grime.

As far as I recall, everything that Serendipity posted had links to back up her claim, with the exception of the retirement dates, which she suggested someone request a foi for.

This means that all the information is already in the public domain.


ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #461 on: April 06, 2014, 12:33:37 PM »
... with the exception of the retirement dates, which she suggested someone request a foi for.

Grime retired in August 2007.

That was confirmed by SYP in an FOI answer (no longer available on line)

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #462 on: April 06, 2014, 01:33:24 PM »
Far be it for me to start another canine thread but there are some issues which must be clarified.  In doing so I hope to have the question answered, are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

The 'dogs' received some almighty bad Press back in 2007 as a consequence of two extremely high profile cases, namely, the disappearance of Madeleine McCann followed soon after by the Jersey Child Abuse Probe. The dogs also attracted further criticism in 2008 following the kidnapping of Shannon Matthews.



Police handler Martin Grime with Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog Eddie.

I don't intend to delve into these cases in my introduction except to explain to anyone who doesn't  already know that in the McCann case no evidence of remains were ever found despite several alerts and in the Jersey probe all that was found were milk teeth and a piece of coconut shell together with some ancient bones.  In the Matthews case, the child was later found safe and well despite alerts by several dogs.  The reason for this being given that second-hand furniture brought into the family home had previously been contaminated by death scent from an unconnected source.



A piece of cocunut shell wrongly identified as a fragment of child's skull during the Jersey probe.


Further information on the cases referred to above can be found within the forum, alternatively refer to the following links...

> Jersey child abuse probe.

> Disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

> More than half UK's sniffer dogs involved in search for Shannon Matthews.

Are cadaver dogs useful?

They can be immensely useful in either of two ways: they can find cadavers and (as an introduced training extra to enhance their usefulness) they can detect blood, which can be captured and analysed in a laboratory for DNA information, which can identify suspects or victims.

It is for that reason that cadaver dogs are trained to detect blood.

An obvious drawback of training a dog to react to blood is that, the wider the range of substance (or, more accurately, scents emitting from those substances) a dog will react to, the greater the chance of an alert, not necessarily false (as it may be within the dog's training parameters) but just not helpful to an enquiry.

That is why some States of America (not all) permit use of human remains and human body parts to train dogs. 

Those US States that do not, and all the rest of the world where cadaver dogs are trained and employed, use swine cadavers and (very often) pseudo-scents as the basis of their training. 

A primary constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, which can also be present in people or by-products of people who are alive.

That is a limitation on the usefulness of cadaver dogs.  Decayed products lost by living people may trigger a reaction, which is within a dogs' trained parameters, but just may not be relevant to the criminal enquiry at hand.

The other (possible) limitation on the use of dogs is bias.  The Portuguese handlers certainly understood about bias.  The handlers were not told which apartment Madeleine had been living in so that they would not become (sic) conditioned.

I believe the whole basis of the US forensic canine program is to limit the cadaver dog to strictly human cadaver scent (not blood) in a bid to increase assurance of the accuracy of a cadaver-dog alert.  If you can limit or (better still) eliminate the range of extraneous (to a human cadaver) scents a dog might be likely to react to, you can have greater confidence that the dog has scented a death scent, even where physical evidence of the alert is not recovered. 

And if you have a specialist blood dog to be deployed separately, neither do you lose the advantage of finding blood, if it there is blood to be found.

So in summary, a cadaver dog can be of immense benefit to a criminal enquiry.

Or it can confound a criminal enquiry by alerting to scents, within its trained range, but just not relevant to the enquiry at hand.

And finally, handler-bias can impair the accuracy and reliability of a dogs' reactions or alerts.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #463 on: April 06, 2014, 02:10:55 PM »
Are cadaver dogs useful?

They can be immensely useful in either of two ways: they can find cadavers and (as an introduced training extra to enhance their usefulness) they can detect blood, which can be captured and analysed in a laboratory for DNA information, which can identify suspects or victims.

It is for that reason that cadaver dogs are trained to detect blood.

An obvious drawback of training a dog to react to blood is that, the wider the range of substance (or, more accurately, scents emitting from those substances) a dog will react to, the greater the chance of an alert, not necessarily false (as it may be within the dog's training parameters) but just not helpful to an enquiry.

That is why some States of America (not all) permit use of human remains and human body parts to train dogs. 

Those US States that do not, and all the rest of the world where cadaver dogs are trained and employed, use swine cadavers and (very often) pseudo-scents as the basis of their training. 

A primary constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, which can also be present in people or by-products of people who are alive.

That is a limitation on the usefulness of cadaver dogs.  Decayed products lost by living people may trigger a reaction, which is within a dogs' trained parameters, but just may not be relevant to the criminal enquiry at hand.

The other (possible) limitation on the use of dogs is bias.  The Portuguese handlers certainly understood about bias.  The handlers were not told which apartment Madeleine had been living in so that they would not become (sic) conditioned.

I believe the whole basis of the US forensic canine program is to limit the cadaver dog to strictly human cadaver scent (not blood) in a bid to increase assurance of the accuracy of a cadaver-dog alert.  If you can limit or (better still) eliminate the range of extraneous (to a human cadaver) scents a dog might be likely to react to, you can have greater confidence that the dog has scented a death scent, even where physical evidence of the alert is not recovered. 

And if you have a specialist blood dog to be deployed separately, neither do you lose the advantage of finding blood, if it there is blood to be found.

So in summary, a cadaver dog can be of immense benefit to a criminal enquiry.

Or it can confound a criminal enquiry by alerting to scents, within its trained range, but just not relevant to the enquiry at hand.

And finally, handler-bias can impair the accuracy and reliability of a dogs' reactions or alerts.

Now ferryman, can you provide  evidence the dogs alerted incorrectly in this case ?


ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #464 on: April 06, 2014, 02:14:33 PM »
Now ferryman, can you provide  evidence the dogs alerted incorrectly in this case ?

Yes.

Cuddle-cat.

A failure to alert when he should have?

Or an "alert" where he should not?

And all the clothes inspected in the gym were present, also, in the villa, yet not alerted to.

So where was the error?

In the villa?

Or the gym?