Could both June and Sheila have been in the master bedroom?

[Holly Goodhead]

I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.

1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone.  Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.

2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).

3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.

There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!

1.  As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away.  They declined until the following day.  This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her.  So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.

2.  JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there?  There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors.  Do you know if the doors were open or closed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either parent present and they were fine.  So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.

3.  Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed.  Was SC's bedding forensically analysed?  If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.

I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB.  Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too.  She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her.  Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere. 

[Myster]

I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.

[Holly Goodhead]

I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.

My head is hurting with it all    And I believe the blue socks were NB's?

 

[APRIL]

1.  As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away.  They declined until the following day.  This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her.  So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.

2.  JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there?  There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors.  Do you know if the doors were open or closed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either of their parents present and they were fine.  So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.

3.  Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed.  Was SC's bedding forensically analysed?  If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.

I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB.  Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too.  She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her.  Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere.

Addressing your first point. I wonder how many times the Bambers had seen Sheila since she left hospital. Might they have assumed, that having received treatment, she was now well? HAD they seen her when she first left St Andrews, I imagine they'd have seen a very different person from the one who arrived at WHF that August. They may have been shocked by the person she'd become.

Re your second point. I agree with Caroline that the reasons for Sheila being in her mother's bedroom are far more likely to have been practical as opposed to emotional.........................BUT, and here's the rider. I agree with you that their relationship was poor, but Sheila was there, albeit, probably not for herself, but because her parents wanted to see the boys before their holiday, and I wouldn't mind betting that she longed for greater understanding between them -she'd apparently even turned to religion -why might that be- to impress June, perhaps? I don't believe the two women were ever going to understand each other but it wasn't Sheila's responsibility to make that effort unless it matched a similar effort on June's part. Some have been disdainful of my suggestion that June may have been reading the bible to Sheila. I think it's likely that religion was the only platform on which they could meet as equals and I don't find it at all strange that Sheila might submit to it as a bonding exercise.

[Holly Goodhead]

Addressing your first point. I wonder how many times the Bambers had seen Sheila since she left hospital.Might they have assumed, that having received treatment, she was now well? HAD they seen her when she first left St Andrews, I imagine they'd have seen a very different person from the one who arrived at WHF that August. They may have been shocked by the person she'd become.

I thought June visited SC with weekly food parcels?  No. Firstly June expressed concern about SC with Pam.  Secondly I believe Dr F had made it clear SC's mental illness was chronic. 

Re your second point. I agree with Caroline that the reasons for Sheila being in her mother's bedroom are far more likely to have been practical as opposed to emotional.........................BUT, and here's the rider. I agree with you that their relationship was poor, but Sheila was there, albeit, probably not for herself, but because her parents wanted to see the boys before their holiday, and I wouldn't mind betting that she longed for greater understanding between them -she'd apparently even turned to religion -why might that be- to impress June, perhaps? I don't believe the two women were ever going to understand each other but it wasn't Sheila's responsibility to make that effort unless it matched a similar effort on June's part. Some have been disdainful of my suggestion that June may have been reading the bible to Sheila. I think it's likely that religion was the only platform on which they could meet as equals and I don't find it at all strange that Sheila might submit to it as a bonding exercise.

There's no firm evidence SC slept in her parents bedroom.

No not necessarily.  She had recently met with her maternal birth family.  Her birth mother is a member of a church.  Her birth grandfather was at one time senior clergy; a prof in theology and wrote several books about such.  It's just as likely those things changed her attitude towards religion rather than a desire to mesh with June?

And no I absolutely do not think the pair read the bible in bed together in an attempt to bond. 

[Caroline]

I can't see Nevill changing into pyjamas in the main bedroom, leaving his day clothes on the chair nearest to his side of the double bed, traipsing to Sheila's room to sleep, only to then rise early as farmers are wont to do and traipse back again to get dressed in front of two dozing females. There was no sign of any of his clothes in Sheila's room, was there?... only her own on the spare single bed and nearby chair.

It's kind of a moot point anyway - we'll never know for definite.

[adam]

This creepy theory was first suggested on the Blue forum in October. A poster suggesting Neville, June and Sheila shared a bed on the massacre night, which was discussed between three posters. I said I didn't agree, and one of the posters said I 'didn't know about family values' !

It was then brought up again in November, although amended to just June and Sheila sharing a bed.

The overwhelming evidence is Neville was shot in the bedroom, and Sheila and the twins didn't wake until it was there turn.

Interestingly, the people who do not agree with this are supporters or former supporters. In other words the same people who didn't accept the evidence or common sense approach showing that Bamber is the killer.

[Holly Goodhead]

This creepy theory was first suggested on the Blue forum in October. A poster suggesting Neville, June and Sheila shared a bed on the massacre night, which was discussed between three posters. I said I didn't agree, and one of the posters said I 'didn't know about family values' !

It was then brought up again in November, although amended to just June and Sheila sharing a bed.

The overwhelming evidence is Neville was shot in the bedroom, and Sheila and the twins didn't wake until it was there turn.

Interestingly, the people who do not agree with this are supporters or former supporters. In other words the same people who didn't accept the evidence or common sense approach showing that Bamber is the killer.

The precise location of perp and victim are key and this will be determined by SoC reconstruction using precise measurements of WHF, length of rifle with and without silencer, SoC photos and pathology reports. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I see also on Blue you have explained a little as to why you think NB may have been sleeping elsewhere ie none of his blood was found in the main bedroom and all casings (aside the 2 attributed to SC) were around the door:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.msg338491.html#msg338491

"Hi Tom, from your account I guess you don't think he did the shooting (some people think he's guilty but 'framed' with the silencer evidence)? Can I ask why you think EP would frame Jeremy when they had the case sewn up as a murder/suicide? Especially as they had to make themselves look pretty stupid and seriously incompetent in order to do so. Also, at what point did they start framing him? If there was a call from Nevill, they knew t from day one and could have proven to the relatives that Jeremy was innocent. If there was a female body in the kitchen, they knew it from day one and could have proven ........ you get the picture. So, when and why would they have decided to frame Jeremy?

Jeremy being framed drags up more questions than why Nevill wasn't targeted first BUT, I can offer a suggestion (or two). The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened. Nevill may have awoken before Jeremy was able to get into a good enough position to shoot OR he may have been sleeping in another room (there are no casings on Nevill's side of the bed other than those used to kill Sheila, none of Nevill's blood was found in the main bedroom but there was some outside of Sheila's room - on the landing and all of the casings are located near to the main bedroom door). This may explain how Nevill managed to get passed Jeremy and down stairs."

I know DC Hammersely said in his trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the main bed but I dont think I've actually seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding other than June's pillow and pillow cases?

DRH/49 represents a carpet sample taken from the landing about 15" away from SC's bedroom door and approx between the door posts.  Whose blood was this?  The COA doc states 5 carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom but I can only find two exhibit numbers?  And two exhibit numbers for carpet samples taken from the landing DRH/49 and DRH/47 which are not mentioned in COA doc.  The carpet samples in the main bedroom showed June's blood only. 

Several diagrams exist showing the layout of WHF do you know if any measurements exist?  It should be possible to ascertain the length of the rifle with and without the silencer attached.  I was just wondering how easy, or difficult, it might be to move around with the rifle/silencer?  Especially on the landing?

JM states in her WS's that JB told MM where everyone was sleeping and the only problem MM encountered was having a mental blank and shooting NB 7 times in the kitchen and that a glove may have come off in the process.   No mention of NB sleeping in a different room.  Mind you I find her testimony totally unreliable anyway.

Just thinking about DRH/49 above I wonder if this might be unrelated to murders and linked to SC's period?  Apologies to those who find these sorts of conversations distasteful but personally speaking during the early phase of a period, which Dr V confirmed SC's was, can be quite a vulnerable time especially at night/first thing in morning.  Ie after lying flat the full force of gravity is no mean feat and often overload for the tampon.  There's much evidence of an unruly period by way of the buckets and tampon applicator found in lounge. 

Alternatively the period might have started during the night prior to the use of a tampon.

[Holly Goodhead]

Just thinking about DRH/49 above I wonder if this might be unrelated to murders and linked to SC's period?  Apologies to those who find these sorts of conversations distasteful but personally speaking during the early phase of a period, which Dr V confirmed SC's was, can be quite a vulnerable time especially at night/first thing in morning.  Ie after lying flat the full force of gravity is no mean feat and often overload for the tampon.  There's much evidence of an unruly period by way of the buckets and tampon applicator found in lounge. 

Alternatively the period might have started during the night prior to the use of a tampon.

Pure speculation but I was wondering if SC may have got up in the night to either use a  tampon at the start of her period or change one.   Perhaps using the downstairs loo so as to not wake anyone upstairs and/or the downstairs flush was better in terms of flushing a used tampon, wrapper etc.  Perhaps both loos (think there were only 2?) struggled to dispose of sanitary products.  Hence the cardboard applicator was not used but found in the lounge which I believe AE noted had not actually been used.  I assume AE determined it hadnt been used as it looked clean.

[Holly Goodhead]

I thought June visited SC with weekly food parcels?  No. Firstly June expressed concern about SC with Pam.  Secondly I believe Dr F had made it clear SC's mental illness was chronic. 

There's no firm evidence SC slept in her parents bedroom.

No not necessarily.  She had recently met with her maternal birth family.  Her birth mother is a member of a church.  Her birth grandfather was at one time senior clergy; a prof in theology and wrote several books about such.  It's just as likely those things changed her attitude towards religion rather than a desire to mesh with June?

And no I absolutely do not think the pair read the bible in bed together in an attempt to bond.

SC's last tragic visit to WHF was also the first since meeting with her birth family.  I say birth family as CAL's book tells of a dinner party with not only her birth mother but also her birth uncle, Peter Jay, and birth grandparrents, Eric and Margaret Jay.

[Myster]

You might be right about DRH49... for a change. I found it odd that just one isolated spot was on that part of the landing near her bedroom door, unless there were smaller less visible ones nearby which weren't sampled (other than DRH47). It could have been a stray blob that was flung out when the final shot was fired at June as she was lying in the doorway. If it was tested the result might be hidden in the thousands of files sitting in a certain Wakefield cell.

[Holly Goodhead]

You might be right about DRH49... for a change. I found it odd that just one isolated spot was on that part of the landing near her bedroom door, unless there were smaller less visible ones nearby which weren't sampled (other than DRH47). It could have been a stray blob that was flung out when the final shot was fired at June as she was lying in the doorway. If it was tested the result might be hidden in the thousands of files sitting in a certain Wakefield cell.

I'm sure I have read some blood was found on the stairs but couldnt be certain if a) I read it and b) how reliable it was if I did read it - I dont think it was in any official doc.

I dont think it would be possible for blood to fling that far from June.  Also my understanding is that once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the potential for spatter from other wounds can be affected by, for example, the lowering of blood pressure caused by first (or subseqent) gunshot wound(s). 

NB sustained gunshot wounds closer to DRH/49 than June did (I think). 

A crime scene reconstruction could potentially answer these questions. 

It appears that cartridge case ejection patterns are not that reliable:

http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/7104

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm sure I have read some blood was found on the stairs but couldnt be certain if a) I read it and b) how reliable it was if I did read it - I dont think it was in any official doc.

I dont think it would be possible for blood to fling that far from June.  Also my understanding is that once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the potential for spatter from other wounds can be affected by, for example, the lowering of blood pressure caused by first (or subseqent) gunshot wound(s). 

NB sustained gunshot wounds closer to DRH/49 than June did (I think). 

A crime scene reconstruction could potentially answer these questions. 

It appears that cartridge case ejection patterns are not that reliable:

http://www.investigativesciencesjournal.org/article/view/7104

I remembered where I had read about the blood on the stairs carpet:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100

It seems EP cleaned the carpet and I don't believe any samples were taken from this location.

Chances are it was NB's blood.

[Holly Goodhead]

1.  As I've previously stated the Bambers didn't seem unduly concerned about SC's state when FE phoned asking them/NB to come straight away.  They declined until the following day.  This was when her condition was such doctors were called to sedate her.  So I dont see why they would be so concerned about SC when she was under their roof that they felt it was appropriate for SC to sleep with June.

2.  JB's room is more or less opposite the twins room. If SC felt she needed to be closer to the twins, or vice-versa, she could have slept there?  There's a box room between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom with two connecting doors.  Do you know if the doors were open or closed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

CAL's book mentions the twins sleeping at SC's best friend's house without either parent present and they were fine.  So I'm sure they were fine to have their own bedroom at their grandparents home with their mother sleeping in a nearby bedroom.

3.  Perhaps NB was late to bed but I'm not sure that would lend itself to SC sleeping with June and NB sleeping in SC's bed.  Was SC's bedding forensically analysed?  If NB slept there no doubt a hair or two of his would have been on the pillow.

I guess SC went to WHF to visit others not just June eg NB and JB.  Perhaps she liked seeing the extended family too.  She telephoned Betty Howie's daughter ?, Sarah I believe, to arrange to meet her.  Regardless of SC's relationship with June, which I think was poor and wouldn't lend to her wanting to share a bed with June, it's so not the norm for adult children to share beds with parents unless circumstances dictate eg lack of bed elsewhere.

Re 2 above and the box room located between the main bedroom and twins room am I right in thinking the two single beds were positioned vertically against the internal walls effectively shutting off the twins room and box room? 

Conversations with self:  Oh Holly do keep up.  How long have you been at this now?