Could both June and Sheila have been in the master bedroom?

[scipio_usmc]

None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom.  Two small spots of bloood were found on the landing, along with further blood on the stairs and a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor away where NB was found.  I'm not sure if this blood was analysed but I haven't seen any results. 

NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs.  2 entry wounds to his face and 2 entry wounds to the back of his shoulder and elbow.  If NB was in the main bedroom how did the perp manage to fire two gunshot wounds to NB's face but allow NB to escape onto the landing where the perp fired a further 2 shots as NB fled along the landing and down the stairs? 

I am certain a SoC reconstruction will show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and as NB appeared at the door, probably coming from the kitchen having called JB, he sustained the 2 gunshot wounds to his face.  As he turned and fled along the landing and down the stairs he sustained two further shots to the back of his shoulder and elbow.

Whose bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop?  Was NB attempting to finish the call or dial 999, although we know he was incapable of purposeful talk from the facial injuries, or to take possession of the ammo on the worktop to prevent the perp from reloading?  Or was in he in pain and shock from the injuries and just stumbling around?

1) Police didn't test all potential blood in the bedroom so you have no way to say Nevill's blood wasn't there.  Did they check the bedding to test and make sure there was none of his blood?  No!  Did they test every drop on the rugs?  NO! They cut out 2 pieces of carpet and tested 5 drops on each piece. 

2) Nevill was wearing clothes which soak up blood and inhibit dripping.  The graze wound wound not result in blood dripping nor would the arm wound.  The only wounds that might were his 2 face wounds and it doesn't mean they did just because they could.  The only blood know to be Sheila's was the pool of blood that leaked after she was dead and moved flat.  No drops were tied to her despite being shot on the floor.

The shell casings and bullet that grazed Nevill wer ein the bedroom because that is where he was shot initially.

Because he was shot their initially along with June the gun was empty and that is the only reason that things proceeded to the kitchen.  If Jeremy had more bullets in the gun he would have continued to shoot Nevill hoping to kill him there.  He clearly hoped the 4 shots would kill Nevill there he didn't expect them to be insufficient.   

[Holly Goodhead]

1) Police didn't test all potential blood in the bedroom so you have no way to say Nevill's blood wasn't there. Did they check the bedding to test and make sure there was none of his blood?  No!  Did they test every drop on the rugs?  NO! They cut out 2 pieces of carpet and tested 5 drops on each piece. 

2) Nevill was wearing clothes which soak up blood and inhibit dripping.  The graze wound wound not result in blood dripping nor would the arm wound. The only wounds that might were his 2 face wounds and it doesn't mean they did just because they could.  The only blood know to be Sheila's was the pool of blood that leaked after she was dead and moved flat.  No drops were tied to her despite being shot on the floor.

The shell casings and bullet that grazed Nevill wer ein the bedroom because that is where he was shot initially.

Because he was shot their initially along with June the gun was empty and that is the only reason that things proceeded to the kitchen.  If Jeremy had more bullets in the gun he would have continued to shoot Nevill hoping to kill him there.  He clearly hoped the 4 shots would kill Nevill there he didn't expect them to be insufficient.

1.  The CoA doc states five carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom.  Although other docs refer to two carpet samples taken from the main bedroom.  Perhaps a total of 5 areas were tested across two carpet samples.  Anyway the test results based on grouping only showed it was June's blood:

57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.

DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms the bed was stripped and nothing of evidential value remained:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223

Although I dont think I've seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding (excl June's pillow and pillowcase) or test results even if negative. 

Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49.  Again I havent seen any results even if negative.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100

There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217

2.  The pathologist makes clear that blood loss from the two facial shots would be sustantial as "the regions injured have a rich blood supply":

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

I'm sure there's an expert somewhere that will be able to say how long it will take for blood from the injuries sustained to fall to the ground with the victim standing.

If NB was shot his side of the bed then why were were none of the cartridges found there?  Cartridges were found close to SC and June?  I'm not an expert on cartridge ejection patterns.  All I can say is that SC and June are surrounded by  the empty cartridges that fired the bullets they were shot with and in the locations they were shot in. 

[scipio_usmc]

1.  The CoA doc states five carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom.  Although other docs refer to two carpet samples taken from the main bedroom.  Perhaps a total of 5 areas were tested across two carpet samples.  Anyway the test results based on grouping only showed it was June's blood:

57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.

DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms the bed was stripped and nothing of evidential value remained:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223

Although I dont think I've seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding (excl June's pillow and pillowcase) or test results even if negative. 

Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49.  Again I havent seen any results even if negative.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100

There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217

2.  The pathologist makes clear that blood loss from the two facial shots would be sustantial as "the regions injured have a rich blood supply":

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

I'm sure there's an expert somewhere that will be able to say how long it will take for blood from the injuries sustained to fall to the ground with the victim standing.

If NB was shot his side of the bed then why were were none of the cartridges found there?  Cartridges were found close to SC and June?  I'm not an expert on cartridge ejection patterns.  All I can say is that SC and June are surrounded by  the empty cartridges that fired the bullets they were shot with and in the locations they were shot in.

All you did was ignore the facts.  FACT they cut out 2 carpet samples and tested 5 drops from each.  They did NOT test ANY of the other blood for type testing.  Thus you have NO WAY TO KNOW whether any drops of blood on the bedding or floor belonged to Nevill.  You only know that the 10 drops they tested were not Nevill's.  Ther eis a HUGE difference between:

Testing all the blood and determining none of it was Nevill's and testing only a small number of the blood stains and determining none of those tested were Nevilll's.  The former would permit saying none of Nevill's blood was in the room the latter only permits saying none of the blood tested was Nevill's.

You completely ignored that he could have been shot in the room without dripping his blood anywhere.  This is a biggy because you keep making an erroneous assertion.  Your argument is built around the false notion that if he was shot there his blood would have to have been left there which is false. After a short while his mouth probably filled with blood and if he opened his mouth blood would leak out.  This is when blood could fall to the floor.

So you take the false premise his blood would have to be in the bedroom if he was shot there and then the false premise that none of his blood was in the bedroom and this you say refutes the casings and bullet that grazed him were fire din the bedroom where they were found.  NONSENSE.

I have already pointed out to you and even provided a drawing showing the direction the casings would go if the killer was at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the bed getting up.  The casings would eject onto June's side of the bed because they eject to the right and her side of the bed was to the right. There was one such casing on the bed.  There may have been others that were knocked off the bed when June got up.  They also could have bounced off the headboard or bed onto the floor because it is easy for casings to ricochet.

Sheila was shot while seated on the floor.  The casings ricocheted off something to land where they did. It was a confined area where they could bounce off the side of the bed instead of being able to fly over the bed because the ejection port was lower than the bed. There were walls in close proximity as well for them to bounce off of.  This makes their position not particularly useful in assessing exactly where she was when shot.  We just know she was in that confined area seated when shot then moved flat subsequently.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

All you did was ignore the facts.  FACT they cut out 2 carpet samples and tested 5 drops from each.  They did NOT test ANY of the other blood for type testing.  Thus you have NO WAY TO KNOW whether any drops of blood on the bedding or floor belonged to Nevill.  You only know that the 10 drops they tested were not Nevill's.  Ther eis a HUGE difference between:

Testing all the blood and determining none of it was Nevill's and testing only a small number of the blood stains and determining none of those tested were Nevilll's.  The former would permit saying none of Nevill's blood was in the room the latter only permits saying none of the blood tested was Nevill's.

You completely ignored that he could have been shot in the room without dripping his blood anywhere.  This is a biggy because you keep making an erroneous assertion.  Your argument is built around the false notion that if he was shot there his blood would have to have been left there which is false. After a short while his mouth probably filled with blood and if he opened his mouth blood would leak out.  This is when blood could fall to the floor.

So you take the false premise his blood would have to be in the bedroom if he was shot there and then the false premise that none of his blood was in the bedroom and this you say refutes the casings and bullet that grazed him were fire din the bedroom where they were found.  NONSENSE.

I have already pointed out to you and even provided a drawing showing the direction the casings would go if the killer was at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the bed getting up.  The casings would eject onto June's side of the bed because they eject to the right and her side of the bed was to the right. There was one such casing on the bed.  There may have been others that were knocked off the bed when June got up.  They also could have bounced off the headboard or bed onto the floor because it is easy for casings to ricochet.

Sheila was shot while seated on the floor.  The casings ricocheted off something to land where they did. It was a confined area where they could bounce off the side of the bed instead of being able to fly over the bed because the ejection port was lower than the bed. There were walls in close proximity as well for them to bounce off of.  This makes their position not particularly useful in assessing exactly where she was when shot.  We just know she was in that confined area seated when shot then moved flat subsequently.

There's no evidence that NB was shot in the bedroom in terms of blood, casings and trajectory of shots.  The facial shots were fired at an angle of 20 degrees from the horizontal.  The shoulder shot was also downwards.  No knowledge of the trajectory of the elbow shot.  NB was 6' 4".  JB was around 6"and SC around 5' 7".  The trajectory of shots can be explained if NB was positioned lower than the shooter ie on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom. 

[scipio_usmc]

There's no evidence that NB was shot in the bedroom in terms of blood, casings and trajectory of shots.  The facial shots were fired at an angle of 20 degrees from the horizontal.  The shoulder shot was also downwards.  No knowledge of the trajectory of the elbow shot.  NB was 6' 4".  JB was around 6"and SC around 5' 7".  The trajectory of shots can be explained if NB was positioned lower than the shooter ie on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom.

This is a perfect example of how you ignore evidence.  13 casings were in the bedroom.  June suffered 7 shots and Sheila 2 so that means 4 more casings than wounds they suffered.  These 4 relate to 4 wounds Nevill suffered.  This is evidence proving he was shot in the bedroom.  So is the fact that the bullet that grazed Nevill was found int he bedroom.  Saying tha tthis evidence doesn't support him being shot there is a lie.  There didn't have to be any blood evidence from Nevill in the bedroom in orde rfor him to be shot there so a lack of blood would not disprove he was shot there.  but they didn't test all the blood so you don't know if any of his blood was there or not.

If he was shot going down the stairs then the shots would have been to his back. All 4 were to his left side which woudl be facing the wall as he walked down.  He was shot in his left profile.  The killer was looking at his left side as the killer fired. Was the killer shooting through the wall?

Shooting at him on the stairs would result int he casings being down at the bottom of the stairs.  Were there any?  No.  There was a single casing in the hall it was against the wall and could not get in that position by any other means than being carried there.  It was carried from the kitchen. 

You make up your own things instead of following the evidence.  Making up things gives you false hope, I prefer to be accurate and a realist.

[Holly Goodhead]

This is a perfect example of how you ignore evidence.  13 casings were in the bedroom.  June suffered 7 shots and Sheila 2 so that means 4 more casings than wounds they suffered.  These 4 relate to 4 wounds Nevill suffered.  This is evidence proving he was shot in the bedroom.  So is the fact that the bullet that grazed Nevill was found int he bedroom.  Saying tha tthis evidence doesn't support him being shot there is a lie.  There didn't have to be any blood evidence from Nevill in the bedroom in orde rfor him to be shot there so a lack of blood would not disprove he was shot there.  but they didn't test all the blood so you don't know if any of his blood was there or not.

If he was shot going down the stairs then the shots would have been to his back. All 4 were to his left side which woudl be facing the wall as he walked down.  He was shot in his left profile.  The killer was looking at his left side as the killer fired. Was the killer shooting through the wall?

Shooting at him on the stairs would result int he casings being down at the bottom of the stairs.  Were there any?  No.  There was a single casing in the hall it was against the wall and could not get in that position by any other means than being carried there.  It was carried from the kitchen. 

You make up your own things instead of following the evidence.  Making up things gives you false hope, I prefer to be accurate and a realist.

How come your casings are allowed to ricochet but mine aren't?  And, and the police are allowed to innocently transfer your casings under their boots but again this isn't allowed with mine?

Emoticon required: girl with pigtails and hands on hips with cross expression on face.

The two facial wounds NB sustained were to the front of his face not to the side.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5885

If the perp was in the main bedroom and NB was was just below the two steps preceding the main bedroom entrance the ejection port could still eject the cartridges within the bedroom.  Perp and victim are separated by the distance between the ejection port and end of barrel and end of barrel and victim.  If NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp moving down the stairs immediately preceding the main entrance and perp and victim facing down the main staircase this could account for the shots to NB's elbow and shoulder and the casing on the metal bar in the main bedroom and the other casing on the landing ie the casings eject to the right.

I'll draw a little diagram and scan it but not now. 

It appears cartridge (casing) ejection patterns are not that reliable but as Myster has pointed out the rifle had a deflection plate so this might narrow it down compared with rifles without a deflection plate.  As far as I can see three factors need to stack up: blood, casings (but less reliable) and trajectory of shots.  The trajectory of shots is only slightly downwards.  It doesn't pan out with NB sitting on bed or crouching on floor.  NB was taller than JB and SC. 

[Myster]

What casing and what metal bar?

If you mean DRH13 then that ain't no metal bar, but a plan view of the open bedroom door.

[Myster]

Actually it's a very poor drawing and hopelessly out of scale... but then police aren't architeks.

So on this ocasion I'll forgive you, but don't do it again, mind.

[Myster]

See what happens when it's past my bedtime... spelling goes to pot.

[scipio_usmc]

What casing and what metal bar?

If you mean DRH13 then that ain't no metal bar, but a plan view of the open bedroom door.

There was a metal transition plate between the bedroom rug and hall rug.  The casing was right inside the bedroom door.   

[Myster]

There was a metal transition plate between the bedroom rug and hall rug.  The casing was right inside the bedroom door.

Aah, OK.  It sounded as though Holly meant a solid steel bar, such as a jemmy, that she thought Nevill might have been beaten with.

[scipio_usmc]

Aah, OK.  It sounded as though Holly meant a solid steel bar, such as a jemmy, that she thought Nevill might have been beaten with.

LMAO

[Caroline]

How come your casings are allowed to ricochet but mine aren't?  And, and the police are allowed to innocently transfer your casings under their boots but again this isn't allowed with mine?

Emoticon required: girl with pigtails and hands on hips with cross expression on face.

The two facial wounds NB sustained were to the front of his face not to the side.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5885

If the perp was in the main bedroom and NB was was just below the two steps preceding the main bedroom entrance the ejection port could still eject the cartridges within the bedroom.  Perp and victim are separated by the distance between the ejection port and end of barrel and end of barrel and victim.  If NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp moving down the stairs immediately preceding the main entrance and perp and victim facing down the main staircase this could account for the shots to NB's elbow and shoulder and the casing on the metal bar in the main bedroom and the other casing on the landing ie the casings eject to the right.

I'll draw a little diagram and scan it but not now. 

It appears cartridge (casing) ejection patterns are not that reliable but as Myster has pointed out the rifle had a deflection plate so this might narrow it down compared with rifles without a deflection plate.  As far as I can see three factors need to stack up: blood, casings (but less reliable) and trajectory of shots.  The trajectory of shots is only slightly downwards.  It doesn't pan out with NB sitting on bed or crouching on floor.  NB was taller than JB and SC.

So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.

[Myster]

So, you're coming around t my way of thinking? NB wasn't in the bedroom when he was shot? The casings in the main bedroom only means that the shooter was in there, not NB.

Have you got your tin hat on, ready? 

[Angelo222]

I've never thought the children were shot first.  Small children often sleep through a lot of noise eg house parties.

It takes a real monster to shoot two young children in the head as they sleep.  If ever there was a reason to bring back capital punishment, that is it.