Scene Of Crime Reconstruction

[Holly Goodhead]

Jeremy Bamber obviously.

History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html

History already repeated itself:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3990856/House-horror-bloodbath-Woman-shoots-dead-mother-brother-three-children-aged-seven-ten-killing-Austria.html

[Holly Goodhead]

No matter how many times you go on repeating that, it won't make it come true.

Not on the evidence we have to hand.  The CCRC need to order the current tenants/owners of WHF to open it up for laser measuring and digital mapping.

[Caroline]

Jeremy Bamber obviously.

History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html

Didn't know the right number to call? Sound familiar?

[Myster]

Didn't know the right number to call? Sound familiar?

In South Africa, for emergency it's 10111 (ten, triple one) landline or 112 mobile... so a lot harder to remember than 999 or 911!

[Holly Goodhead]

AND he tried to call his girlfriend first but couldn't get through!  AND he was charged with cannabis offences!  AND its only day 1 of the trial!  Even so I can feel a change of stance coming on  %&5%£

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders

[Caroline]

In South Africa, for emergency it's 10111 (ten, triple one) landline or 112 mobile... so a lot harder to remember than 999 or 911!

10-11-1, is that difficult? However, I will agree that 999 has to be the simplest to recall.

[Myster]

10-11-1, is that difficult? However, I will agree that 999 has to be the simplest to recall.

I must stop reading Adam's sarky comments, it's catchin'.

[Holly Goodhead]

I must stop reading Adam's sarky comments, it's catchin'.

Adam's posts are endlessly amusing  *&*%£     

[Myster]

Adam's posts are endlessly amusing  *&*%£   

Unlike the endless lists inspired by Hugo N.Tufar.

[Holly Goodhead]

Unlike the endless lists inspired by Hugo N.Tufar.

I was thinking more about Adam's 'forensic library' and 'mountain of circumstantial evidence' which gets Roch in a real tizz  *&*%£

[Holly Goodhead]

I've just read the following on Blue:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395937.html#msg395937

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395944.html#msg395944

From the CoA document:

60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered, it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.

1. 13 casings were found inside the bedroom incl the 2 attributed to SC and a further casing on the landing = total of 14.

2.  At trial Malcolm Fletcher said June might have sustained an 8th gsw which bruised her chest only and account for bullet DRH/5 found near the dressing table/window.  Therefore the 8th casing found June's side of the bed might pertain to this. 

3. There appears to be an assumption NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom but what is this based on? 

Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc.  Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC. 

Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with:

Dr Vanezis - pathologist - Trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - Interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - Casinngs and distance of shots

Why didn't the jury visit WHF?

[Holly Goodhead]

Off the top of my head I can recall the following cases all of which involve some element of the case/crime carried out within defendants' properties and the jury was taken to visit:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/02/april-jones-jury-mark-bridger

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1446414/Murder-trial-jurors-walk-through-Soham-in-the-final-footsteps-of-Holly-and-Jessica.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jan/21/ukcrime.allegrastratton

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/silent-jury-visits-cromwell-street-1578429.html

Can anyone think of/find any cases where the jury was not taken to visit?

Any ideas why the jury at JB's trial was not afforded a visit to WHF?

[adam]

I've just read the following on Blue:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395937.html#msg395937

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395944.html#msg395944

From the CoA document:

60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered, it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.

1. 13 casings were found inside the bedroom incl the 2 attributed to SC and a further casing on the landing = total of 14.

2.  At trial Malcolm Fletcher said June might have sustained an 8th gsw which bruised her chest only and account for bullet DRH/5 found near the dressing table/window.  Therefore the 8th casing found June's side of the bed might pertain to this. 

3. There appears to be an assumption NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom but what is this based on? 

Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc.  Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC. 

Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with:

Dr Vanezis - pathologist - Trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - Interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - Casinngs and distance of shots

Why didn't the jury visit WHF?

It's being suggested that Nevill was not shot in the bedroom. But shot on the stairs from the bedroom door.  David saying bullet casings travel forward 6 feet.

Not sure how bullet casings travelling forward 6 feet supports Nevill being shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. Nevill's 4 bullet casings would then all be on the stairs rather than in the bedroom.

This is because Nevill got within inches of the rifle being held by Sheila, who according to David's diagrams was already standing by the bedroom door.

[Holly Goodhead]

It's being suggested that Nevill was not shot in the bedroom. But shot on the stairs from the bedroom door.  David saying bullet casings travel forward 6 feet.

Not sure how bullet casings travelling forward 6 feet supports Nevill being shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. Nevill's 4 bullet casings would then all be on the stairs rather than in the bedroom.

This is because Nevill got within inches of the rifle being held by Sheila, who according to David's diagrams was already standing by the bedroom door.

Imo NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs and/or winder stairs.  This is what the totality of the physical evidence supports. 

Poster MikeG on the IA forum, an architect, said he was able to assess the dimension of the landing along with Malcolm Fletcher's distance of shots for NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the distance from the rifles butt to casing ejection port.  He said it wasn't possible for the perp to inflict NB's gsw's stood within the bedroom with NB on the landing stairs and the right angle of the bedroom wall impeding the flight of casings DRH/3 and 4.  MikeG seemed competent but I'm not sure the same can be said of Malcolm Fletcher and his assessment of the distance of shots.  Without checking these things out its difficult to pinpoint the exact position of perp and NB but there's no doubt in my mind that the only reasonable explanation for NB's downward gsw trajectories is that the perp was elevated and NB stood on stairs below the perp.   

SC was 5' 7.5" and NB 6'4".  Dr Vanezis said NB's lip and jaw gsw's were about 20 degrees below the horizontal.  The rise of a typical stair is 8.25" with the run 9.0".  The rifle is 43" long from butt to muzzle.  Obviously we have no knowledge of whether the perp held the rifle conventionally ie up against the shoulder, around waist level or somewhere in between.  It's possible the perp may have inflicted NB's upstairs gsw's stood on the winder stairs or main stairs.  Whether the perp was stood within the bedroom facing out onto the landing with NB on the landing stairs or the perp was stood on the winder stairs or main stairs with NB on the main stairs the casings eject  upwards, forwards and to the right so would land about where they were photographed by DC Bird and relayed to the court during DC Hammersley's trial testimony.   

According to MF's trial testimony casings travel about 4 feet.

[adam]

Imo NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs and/or winder stairs.  This is what the totality of the physical evidence supports. 

Poster MikeG on the IA forum, an architect, said he was able to assess the dimension of the landing along with Malcolm Fletcher's distance of shots for NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the distance from the rifles butt to casing ejection port.  He said it wasn't possible for the perp to inflict NB's gsw's stood within the bedroom with NB on the landing stairs and the right angle of the bedroom wall impeding the flight of casings DRH/3 and 4.  MikeG seemed competent but I'm not sure the same can be said of Malcolm Fletcher and his assessment of the distance of shots.  Without checking these things out its difficult to pinpoint the exact position of perp and NB but there's no doubt in my mind that the only reasonable explanation for NB's downward gsw trajectories is that the perp was elevated and NB stood on stairs below the perp.   

SC was 5' 7.5" and NB 6'4".  Dr Vanezis said NB's lip and jaw gsw's were about 20 degrees below the horizontal.  The rise of a typical stair is 8.25" with the run 9.0".  The rifle is 43" long from butt to muzzle.  Obviously we have no knowledge of whether the perp held the rifle conventionally ie up against the shoulder, around waist level or somewhere in between.  It's possible the perp may have inflicted NB's upstairs gsw's stood on the winder stairs or main stairs.  Whether the perp was stood within the bedroom facing out onto the landing with NB on the landing stairs or the perp was stood on the winder stairs or main stairs with NB on the main stairs the casings eject  upwards, forwards and to the right so would land about where they were photographed by DC Bird and relayed to the court during DC Hammersley's trial testimony.   

According to MF's trial testimony casings travel about 4 feet.

David keeps posting diagrams of Sheila shooting Nevill on the stairs. Although Nevill is several feet away in these pictures,  which does not correspond with Nevill getting close range shots.

However wouldn't the 4 cartridges be several feet outside the bedroom & down several stairs. David says cartridges from that rifle travel 6 feet forward.