UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
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As usual I'm sure this has been covered previously but often useful to review. I think the report contains some interesting points from a police officer with 30 years experience who is able and willing to share his views:
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
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I see that Ian Horrocks is a consultant at BGP
Do we know who commissioned this report or was it just done out of the goodness of their hearts?
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These experts are quite worrying in my opinion. How can a police officer with 30 years experience not examine the timeline?
"Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check." he says.
Wrong!
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These experts are quite worrying in my opinion. How can a police officer with 30 years experience not examine the timeline?
"Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check." he says.
Wrong!
He’s not wrong, there were at least 20 minutes during which the children were left unattended. If you want to make out that there was almost always a member of the group i. close proximity to the children throughout the evening you will need to bin the “neglectful parents” angle.
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He’s not wrong, there were at least 20 minutes during which the children were left unattended. If you want to make out that there was almost always a member of the group i. close proximity to the children throughout the evening you will need to bin the “neglectful parents” angle.
Not between Gerry and Matt’s alleged first check.
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I see that Ian Horrocks is a consultant at BGP
Do we know who commissioned this report or was it just done out of the goodness of their hearts?
I think it was produced when he was employed by the MET?
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Not between Gerry and Matt’s alleged first check.
Which never happened according to you.
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These experts are quite worrying in my opinion. How can a police officer with 30 years experience not examine the timeline?
"Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check." he says.
Wrong!
Please explain why he is wrong? If we accept your timeline here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10830.msg539314#msg539314
it pertains to the Thu eve only. For all we know any perp may have observed a pattern over Sun - Wed incl and decided to execute on the Thu eve. He/she then struck lucky operating between the small windows of opportunity.
Hows about a timeline for Sun - Wed pleeeeeeze 8)--))
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Which never happened according to you.
But it’s part of the narrative...the narrative that Horrocks seems to be having trouble with.
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Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.
Does anyone here think MM might still be alive? If so on what basis?
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I think it was produced when he was employed by the MET?
It would seem not . Further investigation shows -
"Ian Horrocks, a former chief inspector of the Met, was sent to PDL in Summer 2012 by The Sun in an attempt to discover what happened to Madeleine McCann. He produced a report, dated July 02 2012, which inspired various articles in the UK media."
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Ian_Horrocks.htm
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While searching for info on Horrocks I came across this =
http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Dodgy_Detectives.html - scroll down for article.
Makes for interesting reading when taken in conjunction with Horrock's piece
2 sides of the coin.one might say
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He’s not wrong, there were at least 20 minutes during which the children were left unattended. If you want to make out that there was almost always a member of the group i. close proximity to the children throughout the evening you will need to bin the “neglectful parents” angle.
You've changed your tune. You couldn't fnd 20 minutes between checks in the group's timelime.
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Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.
Does anyone here think MM might still be alive? If so on what basis?
His report more or less mirrors what I believe happened. In which case Madeleine is living within a family, although probably the only child.
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Please explain why he is wrong? If we accept your timeline here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10830.msg539314#msg539314
it pertains to the Thu eve only. For all we know any perp may have observed a pattern over Sun - Wed incl and decided to execute on the Thu eve. He/she then struck lucky operating between the small windows of opportunity.
Hows about a timeline for Sun - Wed pleeeeeeze 8)--))
I haven't got a timeline from Sun-Wed, but neither has anyone else. Therefore whatever you (or Horrocks) think the timelines were on those evenings has no evidence to support it.
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His report more or less mirrors what I believe happened. In which case Madeleine is living within a family, although probably the only child.
....and she doesn't realise she is world famous missing person Madeleine McCann.
Her entire memory of her parents, her siblings, her early childhood & being abducted have all been forgotten. Unbelievable!
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I think it is a measured response to some of the quite frankly ridiculous theories which the judicial police of 2007 espoused.
Snip
I will describe how I believe she was in my opinion taken and then explain why I believe that the final option that Madeleine may still be alive is realistic.
It remains my belief that Madeleine was targeted, and her parents observed following their arrival at The Ocean Club. The McCann family arrived on Saturday 28th April 2007, and except for that evening, dined every night in the complex. This pattern could have been observed by anyone, so by Thursday they could have been watched for up to four nights during which time their routine was established. Whoever abducted Madeleine was then able to put their plan together. The routine of Mr and Mrs McCann and their friends, along with the regular checking of the children could have been easily observed, as well as the fact that access via the patio door was simple.
On the night itself, Gerry McCann checked the children at about 9.05pm and then rejoined the group. Mathew Oldfield checked at about 9.30pm, although he only listened at the door and did not actually see Madeleine. It was only when Kate McCann checked at about 10pm that it was discovered that Madeline was missing.
These actions could be seen from within the Ocean Club area, as well as from the alleyway that runs between this and the apartment. Due to the height of the wall and foliage on top of it, as well as the area inside being well lit, in contrast to the darkness elsewhere, those dining would have been easily observed whilst anyone in the alleyway could remain unseen. Sunset on the 3rd May 2007 was at 8.25pm, so it would have been getting quite dark by 9pm.
Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check. They would have observed the group for a few minutes and then gone to the apartment. At the end of the alleyway they could see that the road was clear, it is then only literally a second for someone to go through the gate and into the garden area, where they would be virtually out of sight. It is then simple to enter the apartment through the patio doors, which although closed, had been left unlocked.
I believe the abductor then went into the bedroom where the twins and Madeleine were sleeping. He has no interest in the twins, he is looking for Madeleine. The window and blind were very likely opened to facilitate exit. If two people were involved, Madeleine could have been handed out of the window to the second person. If one, he could possibly have climbed out the window with her, but I believe it to be more likely that they left via the door leading to the car park. Although entry was gained via the patio doors, I do not believe this was the exit route as it is not only unnecessary and illogical, it would also substantially increase the chances of being seen.
I think the plan and escape route were planned. It was clearly well executed. This was not an impulsive act. It took patience as well as planning, and would have involved observing the McCann’s for some time.
Although floodlit, the window of the apartment and exit to the car park are not easily observed. Once out of the apartment car park there is a simple choice, turn left or right. By turning right, the abductor must pass Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road leading down to the entrance to the Ocean Club. However, within less than 30 seconds, he could be totally out of sight in an alleyway with high walls that leads directly from Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva to Rua Do Ramalhetete, the main road out of the village. Turning left means he would have to walk a greater distance, initially uphill, and with a greater chance of being seen.
It has been suggested that a child of Madeleine’s description was seen by Martin Smith and his wife, being carried over 400 yards away in Rua da Escola Primaria, shortly before 10pm. This sighting was dismissed by the Portuguese Police, but appears to have been given substantial credibility by Operation Grange, the Metropolitan Police inquiry, who featured this on Crimewatch. I do however remain extremely sceptical about this. As far as I am concerned not only is this too late, but it is also too far away. If someone had abducted a child, they would not have carried them this far. If the plan was to take the child to a car, this would have been parked far closer. If the objective was to dispose of a body, then this person has walked past a lot of waste ground.
This timing also does not fit in with the sighting by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm. However, we are told that the person who Jane Tanner saw has come forward and been eliminated. I do not know how the police can be sure after so many years, that the person they spoke to is one and the same who was seen by Jane Tanner. Did she meet him, were the clothes identical to those she described? I obviously do not know, but regardless I still think that this is still the most likely route taken by the kidnapper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403675#msg403675
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I think it is a measured response to some of the quite frankly ridiculous theories which the judicial police of 2007 espoused.
Snip
I will describe how I believe she was in my opinion taken and then explain why I believe that the final option that Madeleine may still be alive is realistic.
It remains my belief that Madeleine was targeted, and her parents observed following their arrival at The Ocean Club. The McCann family arrived on Saturday 28th April 2007, and except for that evening, dined every night in the complex. This pattern could have been observed by anyone, so by Thursday they could have been watched for up to four nights during which time their routine was established. Whoever abducted Madeleine was then able to put their plan together. The routine of Mr and Mrs McCann and their friends, along with the regular checking of the children could have been easily observed, as well as the fact that access via the patio door was simple.
On the night itself, Gerry McCann checked the children at about 9.05pm and then rejoined the group. Mathew Oldfield checked at about 9.30pm, although he only listened at the door and did not actually see Madeleine. It was only when Kate McCann checked at about 10pm that it was discovered that Madeline was missing.
These actions could be seen from within the Ocean Club area, as well as from the alleyway that runs between this and the apartment. Due to the height of the wall and foliage on top of it, as well as the area inside being well lit, in contrast to the darkness elsewhere, those dining would have been easily observed whilst anyone in the alleyway could remain unseen. Sunset on the 3rd May 2007 was at 8.25pm, so it would have been getting quite dark by 9pm.
Anyone observing their routine would have known that they had at least 20 minutes between each check. They would have observed the group for a few minutes and then gone to the apartment. At the end of the alleyway they could see that the road was clear, it is then only literally a second for someone to go through the gate and into the garden area, where they would be virtually out of sight. It is then simple to enter the apartment through the patio doors, which although closed, had been left unlocked.
I believe the abductor then went into the bedroom where the twins and Madeleine were sleeping. He has no interest in the twins, he is looking for Madeleine. The window and blind were very likely opened to facilitate exit. If two people were involved, Madeleine could have been handed out of the window to the second person. If one, he could possibly have climbed out the window with her, but I believe it to be more likely that they left via the door leading to the car park. Although entry was gained via the patio doors, I do not believe this was the exit route as it is not only unnecessary and illogical, it would also substantially increase the chances of being seen.
I think the plan and escape route were planned. It was clearly well executed. This was not an impulsive act. It took patience as well as planning, and would have involved observing the McCann’s for some time.
Although floodlit, the window of the apartment and exit to the car park are not easily observed. Once out of the apartment car park there is a simple choice, turn left or right. By turning right, the abductor must pass Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road leading down to the entrance to the Ocean Club. However, within less than 30 seconds, he could be totally out of sight in an alleyway with high walls that leads directly from Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva to Rua Do Ramalhetete, the main road out of the village. Turning left means he would have to walk a greater distance, initially uphill, and with a greater chance of being seen.
It has been suggested that a child of Madeleine’s description was seen by Martin Smith and his wife, being carried over 400 yards away in Rua da Escola Primaria, shortly before 10pm. This sighting was dismissed by the Portuguese Police, but appears to have been given substantial credibility by Operation Grange, the Metropolitan Police inquiry, who featured this on Crimewatch. I do however remain extremely sceptical about this. As far as I am concerned not only is this too late, but it is also too far away. If someone had abducted a child, they would not have carried them this far. If the plan was to take the child to a car, this would have been parked far closer. If the objective was to dispose of a body, then this person has walked past a lot of waste ground.
This timing also does not fit in with the sighting by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm. However, we are told that the person who Jane Tanner saw has come forward and been eliminated. I do not know how the police can be sure after so many years, that the person they spoke to is one and the same who was seen by Jane Tanner. Did she meet him, were the clothes identical to those she described? I obviously do not know, but regardless I still think that this is still the most likely route taken by the kidnapper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403675#msg403675
I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.
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You've changed your tune. You couldn't fnd 20 minutes between checks in the group's timelime.
No I haven’t changed my tune. According to the timeline how many minutes were the children in the apartment on their own?
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Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.
Does anyone here think MM might still be alive? If so on what basis?
I have yet to read the full report but I was surprised that you had quoted him when I read the line he was of the opinion Madeleine was still alive.
In my theory Madeleine is still alive. I'm working on the basis a dead child has be exchanged for a living child. Child replacement is what its called.
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I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.
I think what he has to say makes a great deal of sense and he has certainly touched on what is relevant to Madeleine's case and what is quite frankly nothing more than excess baggage.
I think it striking that what Horrocks describes as procedures which set the tone initially and sent the investigation in entirely the wrong direction continue to prevail and are promoted throughout the internet today ... despite the expectation it could be considered the information now to hand would have long since consigned all the trivia to the dustbin of history.
Snip
I will only comment briefly on the investigation conducted by the Portuguese police.
It is evident that more could, and should have been done in the immediate aftermath of her disappearance.
Additionally, much of the focus of the investigation fell on Mr and Mrs McCann, when resources should have been directed elsewhere.
Although it would be irresponsible not to look at the parents, in the absence of any credible evidence, this should have been dealt with, and the investigation moved on.
However, the firm and in my opinion unrealistic assessment by Goncal Amaral, the original investigator, prompted it must be said by the unhelpful views of a UK based psychologist, muddied the whole investigation, and in effect set the whole tone for the inquiry.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.msg403676#msg403676
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I have yet to read the full report but I was surprised that you had quoted him when I read the line he was of the opinion Madeleine was still alive.
In my theory Madeleine is still alive. I'm working on the basis a dead child has be exchanged for a living child. Child replacement is what its called.
....and again....... Does she not know who she is?
What happened? Memory loss caused by the trauma of her abduction?
Nonsense.
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I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'anductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate.
Just climb over the low garden fence.
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No I haven’t changed my tune. According to the timeline how many minutes were the children in the apartment on their own?
Are you looking for a total, or subtotals of the various periods?
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....and again....... Does she not know who she is?
What happened? Memory loss caused by the trauma of her abduction?
Nonsense.
I'm hoping she has a clue as to who she is. I'm hoping she will join Facebook and join one of my Facebook groups.
I'm looking at the new members to see if someone fits the profile. We don't know if she will still be speaking English. I hope so.
Ian Horrocks "However, Madeleine, if alive, is now a teenager. She may become curious as to her background. No one knows where this could lead."
So I have tried to prepare for that.
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Are you looking for a total, or subtotals of the various periods?
either or both will be fine.
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....and she doesn't realise she is world famous missing person Madeleine McCann.
Her entire memory of her parents, her siblings, her early childhood & being abducted have all been forgotten. Unbelievable!
What’s unbelievable about it? I suppose you have perfect recall of your life aged 4.
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Snip
Additionally, much of the focus of the investigation fell on Mr and Mrs McCann, when resources should have been directed elsewhere.
Although it would be irresponsible not to look at the parents, in the absence of any credible evidence, this should have been dealt with, and the investigation moved on.
How could they move on when their investigation revealed a wholly inconsistent timescale from those most closely involved with the missing girl from 17:00 that afternoon. There was no evidence for abduction. Totman had come forward to the PJ, remember. There was some suspicion of staging at he scene.
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either or both will be fine.
The subtotals should add up to the total in any case.
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What’s unbelievable about it? I suppose you have perfect recall of your life aged 4.
That she wouldn't remember her own name? Utter horse sh1t.
She was a bright 4 year old, not mentally retarded as far as I'm aware.
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I have yet to read the full report but I was surprised that you had quoted him when I read the line he was of the opinion Madeleine was still alive.
In my theory Madeleine is still alive. I'm working on the basis a dead child has be exchanged for a living child. Child replacement is what its called.
Did I miss it but does Horrocks actually put up a theory as to why Madeleine was taken and still kept alive?
There was a bit about (like) a new family arrive with Madeleine in tow and the neighbours just accept the child as one of their own, i.e. just accept their neighbours and ask no questions.
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That she wouldn't remember her own name? Utter horse sh1t.
She was a bright 4 year old, not mentally retarded as far as I'm aware.
You don’t need to be mentally retarded to forget details of your life as an infant. Nice turn of phrase by the way.
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You don’t need to be mentally retarded to forget details of your life as an infant. Nice turn of phrase by the way.
You'd need a severe bonk on the head to forget your own bleedin name @)(++(*
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You'd need a severe bonk on the head to forget your own bleedin name
We were working on a theory of woke and wandered followed by "a severe bonk on the head" last week.
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You'd need a severe bonk on the head to forget your own bleedin name @)(++(*
Oh really? You’re obviously the expert on childhood recall.
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Did I miss it but does Horrocks actually put up a theory as to why Madeleine was taken and still kept alive?
There was a bit about (like) a new family arrive with Madeleine in tow and the neighbours just accept the child as one of their own, i.e. just accept their neighbours and ask no questions.
Is this his theory?
"A child will often accept what they are told, particularly if said in a caring way, and will therefore act accordingly. Memories cannot be totally erased but behaviour can be controlled, influenced and to a degree changed. I also believe that there is a good chance that whoever took Madeleine may in all likelihood have subsequently moved, and therefore have new friends and neighbours who accept them for what they are, and not necessarily be suspicious. People generally accept what they are told by others, and are not naturally disbelieving."
They'd need to live a very isolated life then. OK it can and does happen.
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Oh really? You’re obviously the expert on childhood recall.
I'm pretty sure I could remember my own name at age 4.
I'd have been answering to it every day for the majority of my life up until then.
What happened to Maddie?
Did the abductor start calling her Dave & she just soaked it up?
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I'm pretty sure I could remember my own name at age 4.
I'd have been answering to it every day for the majority of my life up until then.
What happened to Maddie?
Did the abductor start calling her Dave & she just soaked it up?
You certainly would know your own name at four but if you were removed permanently from everyone you knew and had spent the last 12 years being called Dave, there is a strong likelihood that by now you would have forgotten your original name, IMO. I don’t think this would mean you were mentally retarded, necessarily.
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That she wouldn't remember her own name? Utter horse sh1t.
She was a bright 4 year old, not mentally retarded as far as I'm aware.
There are techniques available to remove memory
1) MK ULTRA in the USA. Horrific.
2) Also some other schemes in the USA, I believe.
3) Also mind control in Lesotho (South Africa)... Don't know much about this except it is supposed to happen there.
There is the ability via these awful programs to wipe their personality and memory + give a new personality.
They can even roboticise (new word!) the person being treated and order that person at a certain signal to kill the person nearest them. Herrendous stuff.
I hope that Madeleine has not been abused in any way, including the mind control way. I think it unlikely; there must be simpler and kinder ways of inflencing such a young childs memory
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How could they move on when their investigation revealed a wholly inconsistent timescale from those most closely involved with the missing girl from 17:00 that afternoon. There was no evidence for abduction. Totman had come forward to the PJ, remember. There was some suspicion of staging at he scene.
I believe that there was a mindset in place from the early stages that entrapped the Portuguese police into making so many elementary mistakes of which some are repeated in your posts.
Developments which have taken place in Madeleine's case since that early period of errors should have made repetition of the opinion of " A badly told Story" a complete embarrassment much as summed up by Ian Horrocks in his expert opinion.
Snip
Although theories are of course a significant part of detective work, they should be based on evidence and not simply that you think you know what happened.
The vital point is to keep an open mind and to go where the evidence leads, not where you think you want it to go.
The reality is that in such cases it is fundamental that the investigators keep an open mind and work to the evidence not what they think may have happened.
Also, their belief should be that they are looking for a live child and not confirmation of death.
This mindset is fundamental to the way an investigation progresses and how the people working on it respond to information.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3247.msg92507#msg92507
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Just climb over the low garden fence.
That's not what he says.
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Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.
Does anyone here think MM might still be alive? If so on what basis?
The MET certainly don't think so,can't see them landscaping the Portuguese countryside to rule out the possibility of death.
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The MET certainly don't think so,can't see them landscaping the Portuguese countryside to rule out the possibility of death.
Certainly?
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Certainly?
Couldn't give an indication with a cite to show where they are searching for a live Madeleine could you please.
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The MET certainly don't think so,can't see them landscaping the Portuguese countryside to rule out the possibility of death.
Why ever not? All missing children cases involve searching various areas in case there is a body. Sometimes these children are later found alive.
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Couldn't give an indication with a cite to show where they are searching for a live Madeleine could you please.
Please don't be silly.
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Couldn't give an indication with a cite to show where they are searching for a live Madeleine could you please.
No I couldn’t so for that reason you think the Met are certain she’s dead? Wow, interesting logic.
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No I couldn’t so for that reason you think the Met are certain she’s dead? Wow, interesting logic.
They haven’t made an appeal in six years, haven’t issued an age progressed image in six years and there isn’t anything now on their website connected to the case. What do you take from that ?
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No I couldn’t so for that reason you think the Met are certain she’s dead? Wow, interesting logic.
What possible motive other than death would you conclude from the digs,the MET are currently digging around looking for Suzi lamplugh, second time in 6 months,is it to rule death out in your logical way of thinking.
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Interesting he thinks MM might still be alive, although he acknowledges he's in the minority in this regard.
Does anyone here think MM might still be alive? If so on what basis?
Yep. I feel pretty sure about it.
SY have the evidence.
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What possible motive other than death would you conclude from the digs,the MET are currently digging around looking for Suzi lamplugh, second time in 6 months,is it to rule death out in your logical way of thinking.
Death is a possibility, even a likelihood, it doesn’t mean Met are certain she is dead, unless someone has confessed to killing her and they have found supporting evidence of this, how could they be certain? Do you think the police never bothered looking for bodies in other missing children cases where the child was discovered alive afterwards?
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They haven’t made an appeal in six years, haven’t issued an age progressed image in six years and there isn’t anything now on their website connected to the case. What do you take from that ?
I don’t take anything from it. It doesn’t prove they are certain she is dead. Certain implies proof. Have they got that do you think?
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That's not what he says.
Why I said that is he didn't need to go and open the gate he could have just climbed over the fence, Something no one could possibly see along the alleyway.
G-unit: "I notice he doesn't specify a time for the 'abductor' nipping out of the alley and into the gate."
Rob "Just climb over the low garden fence."
G-unit "That's not what he says."
Rob: "Why I said that is he didn't need to go and open the gate he could have just climbed over the fence, Something no one could possibly see along the alleyway."
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I don’t take anything from it. It doesn’t prove they are certain she is dead. Certain implies proof. Have they got that do you think?
Pretty close to it I’d guess.
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Pretty close to it I’d guess.
Guesses are no good I’m afraid.
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Guesses are no good I’m afraid.
It’s a turn of phrase.
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It’s a turn of phrase.
Yes, and it demonstrates that you really don’t have a clue.
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Yes, and it demonstrates that you really don’t have a clue.
I’m not sure why you are debating this one as you’ve admitted that she’s most probably dead too.
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I’m not sure why you are debating this one as you’ve admitted that she’s most probably dead too.
My beliefs have no bearing on whether or not she is dead. I think it’s likely but I’m not certain as there is no evidence that she is. Apparently the police are certain simply because they dug up PdL. I dispute that.
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Guesses are no good I’m afraid.
They are good enough for OG if they have procured cadaver dogs and are digging for... seashells? dead seashell?
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They are good enough for OG if they have procured cadaver dogs and are digging for... seashells? dead seashell?
Very droll.
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The MET certainly don't think so,can't see them landscaping the Portuguese countryside to rule out the possibility of death.
Why ever not? All missing children cases involve searching various areas in case there is a body. Sometimes these children are later found alive.
Probably a waste of time,but I'm just shooting the breeze at the moment,what other landmasses that were dug up in searches can you link to only for "these children to be later found alive"
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My beliefs have no bearing on whether or not she is dead. I think it’s likely but I’m not certain as there is no evidence that she is. Apparently the police are certain simply because they dug up PdL. I dispute that.
And have not produced an age progressed image for 6 years, have not made any appeals in six years and have removed all mention of the McCann case from the SY website. How do you explain that if they are looking for a living child ?
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And have not produced an age progressed image for 6 years, have not made any appeals in six years and have removed all mention of the McCann case from the SY website. How do you explain that if they are looking for a living child ?
I don’t know, but I do know that none of it means they know she is certainly dead, how can they unless someone has confessed to killing her or they have found her body?
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I don’t know, but I do know that none of it means they know she is certainly dead, how can they unless someone has confessed to killing her or they have found her body?
It is obvious that they are not looking for a living child.
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It is obvious that they are not looking for a living child.
That does not mean they know she is certainly dead does it? Do you think if evidence came to light that she may still be alive they would ignore it, and continue to look for a dead child? I sincerely hope not!
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That does not mean they know she is certainly dead does it? Do you think if evidence came to light that she may still be alive they would ignore it, and continue to look for a dead child? I sincerely hope not!
What evidence they do have, which we are not privvy to suggests they do believe MBM is dead.
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What evidence they do have, which we are not privvy to suggests they do believe MBM is dead.
That doesn’t make any sense.
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That doesn’t make any sense.
It does to me.
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It does to me.
So Miss Taken knows the police have evidence that we don’t know about which suggests they believe Madeleine is dead?? How does Miss Taken know what this evidence suggests if we don’t actually know what it is?
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So Miss Taken knows the police have evidence that we don’t know about which suggests they believe Madeleine is dead?? How does Miss Taken know what this evidence suggests if we don’t actually know what it is?
It would appear from their actions that SY have information which is not in the public domain which suggests that Madeleine is dead. I agree.
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So Miss Taken knows the police have evidence that we don’t know about which suggests they believe Madeleine is dead?? How does Miss Taken know what this evidence suggests if we don’t actually know what it is?
"How does Miss Taken know what this evidence suggests if we don’t actually know what it is"
Employing cadaver dogs and digging up the landscape! 8(0(* dead give away.. no pun intended!
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"How does Miss Taken know what this evidence suggests if we don’t actually know what it is"
Employing cadaver dogs and digging up the landscape! 8(0(* dead give away.. no pun intended!
Because of their behaviour perhaps ?
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And have not produced an age progressed image for 6 years, have not made any appeals in six years and have removed all mention of the McCann case from the SY website. How do you explain that if they are looking for a living child ?
Incorrect. An age progression image was put out within the last couple of years.
Eerily it was from the same angle and very like the image, but aged, that I was able to give them (OG). My image was shot in 2012.
As an art teacher with a love of figure drawing and portraiture, I would comment however that the head and neck missed in certain ways. I doubt that Madeleine has a bull neck, for instance.
Strangely this image has vanished off the internet. Perhaps it was too like the reall older Madeleine ... so had to go.
Who would have the power and knowledge to keep deleting pertinent images ? this deleting business makes me curious why the image video has been removed.
Is it a travesty of Justice? Is vital information being removed ?
Remove an image and I immediately become more interested and delve deeper, with some success
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Incorrect. An age progression image was put out within the last couple of years.
Eerily it was from the same angle and very like the image, but aged, that I was able to give them (OG). My image was shot in 2012.
As an art teacher with a love of figure drawing and portraiture, I would comment however that the head and neck missed in certain ways. I doubt that Madeleine has a bull neck, for instance.
Strangely this image has vanished off the internet. Perhaps it was too like the reall older Madeleine ... so had to go.
Who would have the power and knowledge to keep deleting pertinent images ? this deleting business makes me curious why the image video has been removed.
Is it a travesty of Justice? Is vital information being removed ?
Remove an image and I immediately become more interested and delve deeper, with some success
I may be wrong but didn't the parents object to these images (or one of them anyway)?
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I may be wrong but didn't the parents object to these images (or one of them anyway)?
I think you are right now that you jogged my memory.
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His report more or less mirrors what I believe happened. In which case Madeleine is living within a family, although probably the only child.
I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
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I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
Does the email address above go direct to McCanns?
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Does the email address above go direct to McCanns?
As if. Straight into the junk mail is more like - IMO
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I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
Operation Grange is your best bet but I’m sure they’ll have heard every theory going by now.
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Does the email address above go direct to McCanns?
Who knows you won't get A PERSONALISED reply. Well you might - I did but it was just to tell me that Gerry and Kate don't do private interviews.
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Operation Grange is your best bet but I’m sure they’ll have heard every theory going by now.
I think Operation Grange doesn't have a private email any more.
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I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
I think Operation Grange would be the best bet, but I don't know how to contact them. However, someone on here will know how.
Thank you for giving my idea some thought.
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I think Operation Grange would be the best bet, but I don't know how to contact them. However, someone on here will know how.
Thank you for giving my idea some thought.
I used to write to them quite often operation.grange@met.police.uk or Operation.Grange@met.pnn.police.uk
I ended up with two addresses so I used both.
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I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
I passed mine straight to Operation Grange .. hand to hand at Belgravia Police Station, but I understand that they are not there now.
I am convinced that Mccann supporting organisations have been infiltrated by Mccann [ censored word ] ENEMY. When I had very important info and pre Operation Grange I phoned and got a foreign sounding woman named M.... , she was rude and refused my info.
About 5 years later M.... came on here under her real name, and I recognised her immediately without the unusual name. She was an absolute Mccann [ censored word ].ENEMY.
Soon after Madeleine went missing, a support group was set up, of I believe 100 volunteers. These were to help with the mail which engulfed the family, to receive information sightings etc.and help in any way possible
It was set up rapidly with largely people The Mccanns didn't know. I believe it was infiltrated right from the start by the "enemy" camp. I believe that M.... was one of these infiltraters.
Interestingly after I commented on here what she had done preventing info getting through., she left and even more interestingly her name vanished from the members list. *%6^
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I think its called freedom of speech? Is there anything in the above that breaks forum rules on the homepage?
I read a lot that imo amounts to twaddle, for want of a better word, but I just give it a wide berth unless it needs moderating in terms of rules on homepage.
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I think its called freedom of speech? Is there anything in the above that breaks forum rules on the homepage?
I read a lot that imo amounts to twaddle, for want of a better word, but I just give it a wide berth unless it needs moderating in terms of rules on homepage.
I entirely agree.
This was much easier to avoid when we had the ignore option available to us.
For some unkown reason it has been removed.
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I entirely agree.
This was much easier to avoid when we had the ignore option available to us.
For some unkown reason it has been removed.
It’s easy to skip posts by members whose posts you have no interest in, just don’t read them.
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It’s easy to skip posts by members whose posts you have no interest in, just don’t read them.
But so much better not to see them in the first place, I find.
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It’s easy to skip posts by members whose posts you have no interest in, just don’t read them.
Here's one you skipped.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10842.msg543700#msg543700
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I must confess I thought the idea of MM still alive and living with a family somewhere was pretty far-fetched but imo his report makes a lot of sense for this to be the case.
I've also picked up on something which appears to me to have been overlooked and does in fact support the idea MM might still be alive. Where would I send such info to? Is it here:
http://findmadeleine.com/home.html
and email investigation@findmadeleine.com
It’s normal to report to the investigating Police force.
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Mr Horrocks says "there is not one shred of credible evidence, either direct or otherwise" to implicate the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance."
He also dismisses paedophile rings and people traffickers as not credible; burglar turning abductor is unlikely; being knocked down while wandering is not realistic.
Having disposed of all these possibilities by giving his opinion he then gives us his opinion on what did happen. What he doesn't do is present any credible evidence to support his speculations.
Interestingly he speaks of a "UK based psychologist" muddying the waters in the first investigation. I think he's referring to the one who picked up on the inconsistencies in statements.
He also criticises Op Grange for digging up the ground in PdL as " unnecessary, and an example of resources being misused"
I do agree with this;
"everyone who was in the Ocean Club and nearby at the time have been identified and interviewed, whether they were there as guests, residents or even staff. However, it is my belief that this may still not be the case."
Given the lack of evidence for his speculations I think he had a cheek to say that Grange's "critical leads"" should be "based on evidence, as opposed to speculation and guesswork."
Talk about do as he says not as he does!!
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It’s easy to skip posts by members whose posts you have no interest in, just don’t read them.
I find myself doing that too. Am I missing something important? Maybe but I just can't force myself to do it.
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I entirely agree.
This was much easier to avoid when we had the ignore option available to us.
For some unkown reason it has been removed.
People were blocking mods as well.
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People were blocking mods as well.
Well can you blame us? some are just.. way to boring.
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Well can you blame us? some are just.. way to boring.
Well you can't say that about my posts.