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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on November 25, 2019, 01:00:00 PM
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The following provides some info that OG have considered in connection with the above. I've picked out the salient points I've been able to identify:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JsFKwUUagY&feature=youtu.be&t=203
From DI Tim Dobson
- Crimes occurred in years shortly before and after MM disappeared.
- 12 crimes against British families on holiday in Western Algarve
- 12 cases intruder broke-in the holiday properties of UK families. 4 occasions sexually assaulted young white female child whilst in her bed.
- [unsure of word: some, 7, several?] of the offences were reported to PJ more recently 3 further cases following appeal and 1 specifically phoned in afterwards.
- No forced entry in most crimes - doesn't say how many out of the 12.
- Out of season
- No property stolen or very little property stolen
- Dark tanned man
- Remained calm and may have spent some time in the apartment beforehand
- Spoke good English - foreign accent
- Carvoeiro and Vale De Parra area
DCI Andy Redwood
- No scientific link to the cases
- 2004 2010 man entered holiday apartment
- 9/12 no forced entry
- no burglary once inside
- occurred 2 am - 5 am
- Interested in young children. 6 occasions sat on or got into bed with children.
- 4 occassions committed sexual assault
- Children in age range from 7 - 10 yoa
- spoke English but may have been slurred or slow
- Noise of bin collection was heard on 2 occassions
- Man smelled odd: tobacco, aftershave on 3 occassions
- Clustered around Carvoeiro and Vale De Parra area
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I would hope with the resources available to OG they would have got to the bottom of this by now.
Some inconsistencies between the two officers: DI Tim Robson refers to young white females. DCI Andy Redwood refers to children and doesn't state gender.
What was the nature of the sexual assaults?
What property was stolen?
How did the intruder gain entry?
Why only British families making these claims?
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I created a thread about smells some time back:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10850.msg541081#msg541081
GM/MO/KM did not detect any strange smells in 5A.
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If assaults were carried out as we are led to believe I guess the young children might have been paralysed by fear but you would think out of the 12 1 or 2 might have screamed and an adult rush in the room to confront the intruder?
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If assaults were carried out as we are led to believe I guess the young children might have been paralysed by fear but you would think out of the 12 1 or 2 might have screamed and an adult rush in the room to confront the intruder?
How do you know this did not happen?
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How do you know this did not happen?
We are told by DI Robson that he "remained calm".
We are told by DCI Redwood that he spoke to the children in English. What language did he speak to the adults in?
There's very little by way of physical description. No e-fit. No mention of a weapon. No mention of adults attempting to confront or apprehend. 3 victims said he smelt funny. Adults are potential witnesses not victims.
When families went on street afterwards they record hearing the noise of a bin lorry.
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We are told by DI Robson that he "remained calm".
We are told by DCI Redwood that he spoke to the children in English. What language did he speak to the adults in?
There's very little by way of physical description. No e-fit. No mention of a weapon. No mention of adults attempting to confront or apprehend. 3 victims said he smelt funny. Adults are potential witnesses not victims.
When families went on street afterwards they record hearing the noise of a bin lorry.
How do you know that none of the children screamed?
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Do children usually scream when confronted by an assailant? There are numerous examples of children being assaulted in their beds or kidnapped from them without apparently making a sound. How is this possible? Does it mean it never happened and that these accounts must all be fabricated?
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I was sexually assaulted in a public place as a child travelling alone. I neither screamed nor told anyone about it for years. My assailant (who did smell strongly of booze) no doubt went on to assault others. Maybe they screamed but I doubt it.
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How do you know that none of the children screamed?
I don't. I said I would have thought at least 1/12 would have screamed out AND an adult rush in the room to confront the intruder.
Based on what the two detectives said is there any evidence that any adult had any contact and/or observed the intruder?
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I don't. I said I would have thought at least 1/12 would have screamed out AND an adult rush in the room to confront the intruder.
Based on what the two detectives said is there any evidence that any adult had any contact and/or observed the intruder?
There is no evidence no, but so what? Because it doesn’t fit with how you think such a situation should play out you think it didn’t happen at all?
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I don't. I said I would have thought at least 1/12 would have screamed out AND an adult rush in the room to confront the intruder.
Based on what the two detectives said is there any evidence that any adult had any contact and/or observed the intruder?
No they wouldn't have because as soon as the child cried out, he would have beaten a quick exit. How did he get in that is the question.
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I'm sure these incidents took place and find it very odd that sone try to pretend they didn't.
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There is no evidence no, but so what? Because it doesn’t fit with how you think such a situation should play out you think it didn’t happen at all?
And how do I think such a situation should play out?
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No they wouldn't have because as soon as the child cried out, he would have beaten a quick exit. How did he get in that is the question.
We are told by the detectives the intruder entered between the hours of 2 am and 5 am and that he remained calm and may have spent some time in the apartment beforehand. What was the evidence for him being in the apartment beforehand? If this was the case and he then entered the children's bedrooms, sitting on their beds and talking to them in English where were the adults when all this was going on? These were young children all 10 yoa and under.
The info provided by DI Robson and DCI Redwood is patchy to say the least and raises more questions than answers. What were they hoping to achieve from the broadcast? More families coming forward to gather more intelligence? How come from all these victims/witnesses it wasn't possible to produce an e-fit? And how come all the families are British?
How did he get out? The same way he came in I guess? DCI Rewood said 9/12 no signs of forced entry.
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We are told by the detectives the intruder entered between the hours of 2 am and 5 am and that he remained calm and may have spent some time in the apartment beforehand. What was the evidence for him being in the apartment beforehand? If this was the case and he then entered the children's bedrooms, sitting on their beds and talking to them in English where were the adults when all this was going on? These were young children all 10 yoa and under.
The info provided by DI Robson and DCI Redwood is patchy to say the least and raises more questions than answers. What were they hoping to achieve from the broadcast? More families coming forward to gather more intelligence? How come from all these victims/witnesses it wasn't possible to produce an e-fit? And how come all the families are British?
How did he get out? The same way he came in I guess? DCI Rewood said 9/12 no signs of forced entry.
These stories are so vague that it's not possible to decide whether they're connected to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
As they weren't always reported to the police it may be that the parents only became alarmed in hindsight when they heard about Madeleine.
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These stories are so vague that it's not possible to decide whether they're connected to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
As they weren't always reported to the police it may be that the parents only became alarmed in hindsight when they heard about Madeleine.
Supporters would perhaps call this 'a total lack of evidence' in fact. It should be taken as it is, unverifiable and useless as a comparison tool.
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Supporters would perhaps call this 'a total lack of evidence' in fact. It should be taken as it is, unverifiable and useless as a comparison tool.
How do you know what a, supporter would say... I would say these incidents may or may not be related to Maddie's, disappearance.. That's the sensible response
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How do you know what a, supporter would say... I would say these incidents may or may not be related to Maddie's, disappearance.. That's the sensible response
Well because such apparent, unverifiable, unquantifiable, circumstantial, apocryphal evidence is no evidence at all when supporters are discussing Kate or Gerry's potential involvement or complicity.
That's how.
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Well because such apparent, unverifiable, unquantifiable, circumstantial, apocryphal evidence is no evidence at all when supporters are discussing Kate or Gerry's potential involvement or complicity.
That's how.
And you are wrong of course ..it is evidence
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And you are wrong of course ..it is evidence
So it's evidence now? So the deleted phone records? Evidence. The blood / cadaver dogs? Evidence. etc,, etc
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So it's evidence now? So the deleted phone records? Evidence. The blood / cadaver dogs? Evidence. etc,, etc
You may note I use the words real evidence... The only reason I exclude the dog alerts is because grime and Harrison do. The rest is evidence but very weak evidence
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You may note I use the words real evidence... The only reason I exclude the dog alerts is because grime and Harrison do. The rest is evidence but very weak evidence
Like these somewhat vague accounts of creepy dudes sat on ends of beds.
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Like these somewhat vague accounts of creep dudes sat on ends of beds.
Not vague afaics... And multiple sources... As I said... could or could not be related
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Not vague afaics... And multiple sources... As I said... could or could not be related
I'd be inclined to suggest, with limited data, but on balance, these are not related.
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I'd be inclined to suggest, with limited data, but on balance, these are not related.
I think it's remotely possible they are... And that can cannot be ignored
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I think it's remotely possible they are... And that can cannot be ignored
There is that possibility but my own belief is still in favour of the woke and wandered scenario which ended in tragic circumstances for Madeleine. The other claimed abduction case, that of Joana Cipriano, was tragic too and came about as a direct consequence of domestic violence. I don't see any link between them other than the fact that Gonçalo Amaral was lead detective in both cases.
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And how do I think such a situation should play out?
You have already stated that it is your belief that at least one or two of the children should have screamed bringing their parents hurrying into the room for a confrontation, did you not?
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Supporters would perhaps call this 'a total lack of evidence' in fact. It should be taken as it is, unverifiable and useless as a comparison tool.
Rubbish. It is not a total lack of evidence, unless you think all these witnesses either dont exist (and the Met is complicit in the deception) or that all these incidents were fabricated by various individuals over a number of years and in different locations, prior to Madeleines’s disappearance. Neither scenario seems plausible IMO.
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I'd be inclined to suggest, with limited data, but on balance, these are not related.
Why not?
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Why not?
The supposed MO is totally different, assuming a perp exists / existed in the MM case - occupied dwellings, older children, sneaking about in the early hours, no 'abduction' or even attempted.
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We are told by the detectives the intruder entered between the hours of 2 am and 5 am and that he remained calm and may have spent some time in the apartment beforehand. What was the evidence for him being in the apartment beforehand? If this was the case and he then entered the children's bedrooms, sitting on their beds and talking to them in English where were the adults when all this was going on? These were young children all 10 yoa and under.
The info provided by DI Robson and DCI Redwood is patchy to say the least and raises more questions than answers. What were they hoping to achieve from the broadcast? More families coming forward to gather more intelligence? How come from all these victims/witnesses it wasn't possible to produce an e-fit? And how come all the families are British?
How did he get out? The same way he came in I guess? DCI Rewood sai 9/12 no signs of forced entry.
It could be he was rifling through the apartment looking for things to steal, he maybe moved things or took things the parents would notice that. I think he spoke when one child asked 'is that you dad' and he said 'yes'. they noticed he was dark skinned, but didn't they say he wore a mask? So how would they know what he looked like to produce an e-fit.
I think the whole idea of the broadcast was to show the top he was wearing with the white ring on the back.
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The supposed MO is totally different, assuming a perp exists / existed in the MM case - occupied dwellings, older children, sneaking about in the early hours, no 'abduction' or even attempted.
And yet also very similar- holiday apartment, no forced entry, young girls targetted. Perhaps the perpetrator realised that he wasn’t going to get what he wanted from sitting on a beg in an occupied apartment and that removing the child first would be more in keeping with his desired outcome.
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And yet also very similar- holiday apartment, no forced entry, young girls targetted. Perhaps the perpetrator realised that he wasn’t going to get what he wanted from sitting on a beg in an occupied apartment and that removing the child first would be more in keeping with his desired outcome.
I would suggest that, if these two crimes occurred, on balance it would be unlikely that an investigating force would come up with a repeat offender, given the apparent disparity in MO.
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I would suggest that, if these two crimes occurred, on balance it would be unlikely that an investigating force would come up with a repeat offender, given the apparent disparity in MO.
I don’t understand your point. This was a repeat offender, unless you’re saying the MO in each case was different? It’s not uncommon for sexual predators to start off by stealing knickers off clotheslines and flashing their meat andtwo veg in the park before progressing to more serious offences.
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I don’t understand your point. This was a repeat offender, unless you’re saying the MO in each case was different? It’s not uncommon for sexual predators to start off by stealing knickers off clotheslines and flashing their meat andtwo veg in the park before progressing to more serious offences.
So the initial 'crimes' were simply gateway? Over course of a few weeks?
Yes, the supposed MO's were not even remotely close. More importantly, the apparent motives were polar opposite - petty theft and apparent sexual molestation? (quite a heady mix in an apartment occupied by adults) and supposed abduction.
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So the initial 'crimes' were simply gateway? Over course of a few weeks?
Yes, the supposed MO's were not even remotely close. More importantly, the apparent motives were polar opposite - petty theft and apparent sexual molestation? (quite a heady mix in an apartment occupied by adults) and supposed abduction.
They were over the course of more than a few weeks. I don’t understand your second point. Who claimed the perpetrator’s chief motive for these specific crimes was burglary?
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If you want to molest the children of holidaymakers but are thwarted because they are generally not left unattended, would not the middle of the night when the parents are likely fast asleep the best time to strike? And wouldn’t it be a gift to find a family in an easy to access apartment where the pretty little girl has been left all alone? No need to enter in the night, and why not remove the child all together?
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And yet also very similar- holiday apartment, no forced entry, young girls targetted. Perhaps the perpetrator realised that he wasn’t going to get what he wanted from sitting on a beg in an occupied apartment and that removing the child first would be more in keeping with his desired outcome.
But these things go on in just about every tourist resort in the world, it is a sad fact of life unfortunately that tourists attract thieves and opportunists wherever they go.
As far as I know the Praia da Luz resort didn't have a history of children being abducted at night and that applies pre and post Madeleine's disappearance. I find it very hard to believe that any abductor from outside the area would intentionally travel all the way to Luz to carry out an abduction knowing that he could be challenged on one of the few roads which lead away from the town. The risk factor simply excludes such a possibility imo.
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But these things go on in just about every tourist resort in the world, it is a sad fact of life unfortunately that tourists attract thieves and opportunists wherever they go.
And this is a reason why the perpetrator of these crimes could not be involved in Madeleine’s disappearance also?
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But these things go on in just about every tourist resort in the world, it is a sad fact of life unfortunately that tourists attract thieves and opportunists wherever they go.
As far as I know the Praia da Luz resort didn't have a history of children being abducted at night and that applies pre and post Madeleine's disappearance. I find it very hard to believe that any abductor from outside the area would intentionally travel all the way to Luz to carry out an abduction knowing that he could be challenged on one of the few roads which lead away from the town. The risk factor simply excludes such a possibility imo.
I disagree John.... Two disappeared children... Both investigated by amaral and in both the parents blamed... I don't think cipriano was guilty.
No dna, database... V little cctv... A criminals paradise imo
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I disagree John.... Two disappeared children... Both investigated by amaral and in both the parents blamed... I don't think cipriano was guilty.
No dna, database... V little cctv... A criminals paradise imo
Without inviting yet another sojourn into the Cipriano thread...
It is hardly surprising that the parent(s) were blamed in both cases when one considers that in the vast majority of child abduction cases the perpetrator(s) turn out to be a parent or parents or other family members.
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Without inviting yet another sojourn into the Cipriano thread...
It is hardly surprising that the parent(s) were blamed in both cases when one considers that in the vast majority of child abduction cases the perpetrator(s) turn out to be parents or other family members.
But not in every case... According to a Portuguese journalist transcrpit on this site very few Portuguese believe cipriano is guilty
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But not in every case
Infrequently certainly.
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But not in every case... According to a Portuguese journalist transcrpit on this site very few Portuguese believe cipriano is guilty
Depends what you mean by guilty. I for one don't believe she killed her daughter but she assisted an offender after the fact and lied about it.
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Depends what you mean by guilty. I for one don't believe she killed her daughter but she assisted an offender after the fact and lied about it.
I don't think she did either .I thought she confessed to everything when she was beaten
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There's insufficient evidence to conclude that these villa invasions were related to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
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There's insufficient evidence to conclude that these villa invasions were related to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Says who?
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There's insufficient evidence to conclude that these villa invasions were related to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
That's an opinion stated by as fact but it looks as though that's now perfectly acceptable
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There's insufficient evidence to conclude that these villa invasions were related to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
It's possible they were and it's possible they were related to Maddie's disappearance
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There's insufficient evidence to conclude that these villa invasions were related to each other, let alone to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
I certainly agree with that.
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I don't think she did either .I thought she confessed to everything when she was beaten
Actually she was beaten after being remanded in custody. She was remanded in custody because she admitted killing her daughter.
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It's possible they were and it's possible they were related to Maddie's disappearance
Can you provide one tangible piece of evidence which supports that contention?
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I certainly agree with that.
So can you confirm that opinions can now be written without IMOs?
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Actually she was beaten after being remanded in custody. She was remanded in custody because she admitted killing her daughter.
I thought you said she was guilty of lying.... So she, didn't kill her, daughter but she lied to the police and said she did kill her daughter....
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Can you provide one tangible piece of evidence which supports that contention?
Of course it's, a possibility... Unless you can prove they were not connected
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Actually she was beaten after being remanded in custody. She was remanded in custody because she admitted killing her daughter.
Everything I have read... Including the trial transcript where amaral is found guilty of false testimony.... Says she was beaten in order to confess.. ie a confession was beaten out of her.
The only statement I have seen saying she confessed first came from amarals lawyer trying to defend amaral from perjury,... All other sources confirm beating to obtain a confession
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I thought you said she was guilty of lying.... So she, didn't kill her, daughter but she lied to the police and said she did kill her daughter....
Yes, she was convicted of perjury and received an additional sentence which was added to the original one.
And yes, she lied to the police in the first instance in order to protect her brother, she later told the truth and implicated him. I believe her current position is that her brother attempted to sell the girl to foreigners but the handover went dreadfully wrong ending up with the girl being killed. Her remains are supposed to be buried up in the hills near the pig pens.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258
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Yes, she was convicted of perjury and received an additional sentence which was added to the original one.
And yes, she lied to the police in the first instance in order to protect her brother, she later told the truth and implicated him. I believe her current position is that her brother attempted to sell the girl to foreigners but the handover went dreadfully wrong ending up with the girl being killed. Her remains are supposed to be buried up in the hills near the pig pens.
Why haven’t they been dug up then?
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Why haven’t they been dug up then?
Seems they are well hidden.
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Yes, she was convicted of perjury and received an additional sentence which was added to the original one.
And yes, she lied to the police in the first instance in order to protect her brother, she later told the truth and implicated him. I believe her current position is that her brother attempted to sell the girl to foreigners but the handover went dreadfully wrong ending up with the girl being killed. Her remains are supposed to be buried up in the hills near the pig pens.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258
The bizarre perjury conviction related to the fact she could not identify the pj officers who beat her...
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The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture.
According to the court, it was proved that Leonor Cipriano lied about the way in which the officers had beaten her, having presented in trial different versions of the facts that took place during the questionings to which she was subjected to, in 2004, after the crime.
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Seems they are well hidden.
That’s a pretty poor excuse. Just get the cadaver dog on it.
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The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture.
According to the court, it was proved that Leonor Cipriano lied about the way in which the officers had beaten her, having presented in trial different versions of the facts that took place during the questionings to which she was subjected to, in 2004, after the crime.
You're right of course, I have removed the misleading post.
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That’s a pretty poor excuse. Just get the cadaver dog on it.
I hear they aren't reliable apparently?
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I hear they aren't reliable apparently?
No? I heard they were never ever wrong about anything and could sniff a dead body encased in concrete that had been dropped into the Mariana Trench.
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Actually she was beaten after being remanded in custody. She was remanded in custody because she admitted killing her daughter.
From memory, I think you have that the wrong way round, John
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Yes, she was convicted of perjury and received an additional sentence which was added to the original one.
And yes, she lied to the police in the first instance in order to protect her brother, she later told the truth and implicated him. I believe her current position is that her brother attempted to sell the girl to foreigners but the handover went dreadfully wrong ending up with the girl being killed. Her remains are supposed to be buried up in the hills near the pig pens.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258
Nah, the photo of ?Madeleine near Zinat, in the Rif Mountains of Morocco, shows another little girl in an orange top. IMO, that girl is Joana Cipriano aged about 11years.
Strange how all the photos that could help identify her have vanished off the internet. It's her feet, ankles and head shape that identify the little girl as Joana, as well as her posture ... and other bits.
However I do have a hard copy or two but unfortunately don't know how to post from such
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I cannot get the exact quote at the moment, but I’m with Sadie on this one.
It seems everyone is fixated (including me) on how Madeleine left her room and the apartment.
However she left, authorities (most of them) consider it an abduction. This is as far as I know. Sadie’s premise and in situ research, bring an important dimension to Madeleine’s case to me. I do realise many other members have similar firsthand information. And I respect that. Ultimately, Madeleine is somewhere.
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I cannot get the exact quote at the moment, but I’m with Sadie on this one.
It seems everyone is fixated (including me) on how Madeleine left her room and the apartment.
However she left, authorities (most of them) consider it an abduction. This is as far as I know. Sadie’s premise and in situ research, bring an important dimension to Madeleine’s case to me. I do realise many other members have similar firsthand information. And I respect that. Ultimately, Madeleine is somewhere.
No sh1t Sherlock @)(++(*
Not necessarily in a recognisable form and almost certainly not alive - IMO
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From memory, I think you have that the wrong way round, John
You think she was beaten before she was remanded in custody Sadie?
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You think she was beaten before she was remanded in custody Sadie?
The only mention I have seen of her confessing before the beating is from the lawyer for the pj at the torture trial.. To try and deny the torture... No other mention anywhere unless you can show it
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Nah, the photo of ?Madeleine near Zinat, in the Rif Mountains of Morocco, show another little girl in an orange top. IMO, that girl is Joana Cipriano aged about 11years.
Strange how all the photos that could help identify heer have vanished off the internet. It's her feet, ankles and head shape that identify the little girl as Joana, as well as her posture ... and other bits.
However I do have a hard copy or two but unfortunately don't know how to post from such
This will be the photo you are looking for Sadie. Definitely not Madeleine and definitely not Joana.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_04/mccannlength2509_468x361.jpg)
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The only mention I have seen of her confessing before the beating is from the lawyer for the pj at the torture trial.. To try and deny the torture... No other mention anywhere unless you can show it
She told the police she had murdered the girl by hitting her head off a door frame. That is why she was remanded in custody while her brother got bail.
The beating took place in prison in an attempt to find out where the girl was hidden.
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She told the police she had murdered the girl by hitting her head off a door frame. That is why she was remanded in custody while her brother got bail.
The beating took place in prison in an attempt to find out where the girl was hidden.
According to who....
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According to who....
Read the press reports from the time, they are all there somewhere in the Cipriano threads.
Leonor Cipriano freely confessed to the murder of her daughter long before she was beaten whilst on remand.
She told the PJ that she had accidentally killed the girl when she hit her head while being slapped. She added that her brother João who was in the house at the time took the girl outside and hid her.
This was repeated to the magistrate at her arraignment and that is why she was remanded in custody whilst João got bail.
Her later uncoerced confession claiming that it was João who took the girl away to sell her and that she had been killed when it all went wrong is another matter.
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Read the press reports from the time, they are all there somewhere in the Cipriano threads.
Leonor Cipriano freely confessed to the murder of her daughter long before she was beaten whilst on remand.
She told the PJ that she had accidentally killed the girl when she hit her head while being slapped. She added that her brother João who was in the house at the time took the girl outside and hid her.
This was repeated to the magistrate at her arraignment and that is why she was remanded in custody whilst João got bail.
Her later uncoerced confession claiming that it was João who took the girl away to sell her and that she had been killed when it all went wrong is another matter.
I've looked on the threads and seen none of these reports... I'm sure the verdict of the court was she was tortured to confess... I'll have a look tomorrow
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Mother of daughter confesses death by accident!
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First João (John) Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of his niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, at the house where they lived in Figueira.
(http://i.imgur.com/zjaxBkw.jpg?1)
September 26, 2004
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB
An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and gave the man his freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known at approximately 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning, at a time when dozens of local people were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he had been interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointed his finger at his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring all the explanations in the case to Leonor Cipriano.
João Cipriano only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joana, after the girl was dead. He insisted that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark.". However, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of her daughter. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying she had slapped the child but she had struck her head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said she was bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag. She then asked her brother for help to dispose of the body's of her own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like her uncle, the mother of Joana will also use the excuse of the dark, as well as the state of panic that she would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ as to where the body may be proved completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joana gave the impression of being psychologically affected by the case and often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on the enforcement measures to be applied to the process by recalling the mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano that she would remain in custody while João Cipriano would be freed on the basis that he presents himself daily to the authorities (GNR Silves).
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134
NB Original Report removed by Correio da Manhã.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5783.msg205303;topicseen#msg205303
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Mother of daughter confesses death by accident!
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First João (John) Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of his niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, at the house where they lived in Figueira.
(http://i.imgur.com/zjaxBkw.jpg?1)
September 26, 2004
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB
An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and gave the man his freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known at approximately 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning, at a time when dozens of local people were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he had been interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointed his finger at his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring all the explanations in the case to Leonor Cipriano.
João Cipriano only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joana, after the girl was dead. He insisted that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark.". However, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of her daughter. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying she had slapped the child but she had struck her head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said she was bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag. She then asked her brother for help to dispose of the body's of her own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like her uncle, the mother of Joana will also use the excuse of the dark, as well as the state of panic that she would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ as to where the body may be proved completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joana gave the impression of being psychologically affected by the case and often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on the enforcement measures to be applied to the process by recalling the mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano that she would remain in custody while João Cipriano would be freed on the basis that he presents himself daily to the authorities (GNR Silves).
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134
NB Original Report removed by Correio da Manhã.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5783.msg205303;topicseen#msg205303
Could I ask you where you found this, article... It looks, decidedly dodgy.
It's, a Portuguese story in a, Portuguese paper... Why are the quoting the BBC.
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I cannot get the exact quote at the moment, but I’m with Sadie on this one.
It seems everyone is fixated (including me) on how Madeleine left her room and the apartment.
However she left, authorities (most of them) consider it an abduction. This is as far as I know. Sadie’s premise and in situ research, bring an important dimension to Madeleine’s case to me. I do realise many other members have similar firsthand information. And I respect that. Ultimately, Madeleine is somewhere.
Thank you Anthro. Very kind and supportive of you.
It is good to have another open minded thinker on forum. I am fed up of being on my own. I am too old and tired for a battle on my own against a group (always a group) who are determined to ridicule everything I say.
I appreciate your thoughtful words Anthro.
One of my major problems is that I am not computer savvie. All this turqouise/ lavender saga could have been cut dead early on, had I known how to post the image, from the official BBC youtube , of the detective carrying my lavender coloured folder. There would have been an instant comparison between the two images of my folder.
Members generally cannot be bothered to open up youtubes, then find the exact bit, for comparison. Too much trouble !
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This will be the photo you are looking for Sadie. Definitely not Madeleine and definitely not Joana.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_04/mccannlength2509_468x361.jpg)
That is not the one, John
The comparison photo showing Jaona standing and very nicely turned out ready for school IIRC is the photo I want. Last time I looked that photo had seemingly been removed from the Joana section of this forum, and i could no longer find it on the internet.
The missing photo shows that Joanas inner calves are poorly developed. And her legs fit uneasily into her ankles, witgh rather a flat footed look. The photo above which you posted shows similarly poorly developed inside lower legs. The feet also look a bit flat footed and the ankles awkward
Can you please find the missing photo? TY
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That is not the one, John
The comparison photo showing Jaona standing and very nicely turned out ready for school IIRC is the photo I want. Last time I looked that photo had seemingly been removed from the Joana section of this forum, and i could no longer find it on the internet.
The missing photo shows that Joanas inner calves are poorly developed. And her legs fit uneasily into her ankles, witgh rather a flat footed look. The photo above which you posted shows similarly poorly developed inside lower legs. The feet also look a bit flat footed and the ankles awkward
Can you please find the missing photo? TY
May I just clarify then. You think this is a photo of Madeleine and Joana?
Or at least you believe they're being kept together?
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Is this the one you are referring to, Sadie?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No-one seems to have bothered about an age progressed image for JC?
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No-one seems to have bothered about an age progressed image for JC?
Why should they?
Apart from a few on here who like to use it as a weapon against Amaral, I don't suppose anyone else is really bothered
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Why should they?
Apart from a few on here who like to use it as a weapon against Amaral, I don't suppose anyone else is really bothered
Well as I understand it LC maintains JC disappeared? And I was just attempting to highlight the resources deployed by the McCanns on MM as opposed to those deployed on JC.
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A 'confession' was forced from Joana Cipriano's mother during interrogation. No-one was looking for Joana because she was officially dead.
A 'confession' was not forced from Madeleine McCann's mother and Madeleine's official status was missing.
Did the Portuguese police link these two disappearances? I don't think it was in their interest and neither were they interested to do so.
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‘No sh1t Sherlock @)(++(*’ Jassi’
If this is your response to ‘Madeleine is somewhere’, one has to wonder what the rest of your life looks like.
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‘No sh1t Sherlock @)(++(*’ Jassi’
If this is your response to ‘Madeleine is somewhere’, one has to wonder what the rest of your life looks like.
It was my response to you stating the bl**dy obvious.
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A 'confession' was forced from Joana Cipriano's mother during interrogation. No-one was looking for Joana because she was officially dead.
A 'confession' was not forced from Madeleine McCann's mother and Madeleine's official status was missing.
Did the Portuguese police link these two disappearances? I don't think it was in their interest and neither were they interested to do so.
The mother was allegedly beaten a day after her confession so no beating happened to get a confession. Sadly you will never see Joana again and the police know who is responsible - the mother and uncle.
"For the Defense of four of the five accused inspectors, it would not make any sense the policeman in question to beat the suspect to get a confession, even because "both of them had already admitted that they were responsible for Joana's death", said the lawyer António Pragal Colaço."
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The mother was allegedly beaten a day after her confession so no beating happened to get a confession. Sadly you will never see Joana again and the police know who is responsible - the mother and uncle.
"For the Defense of four of the five accused inspectors, it would not make any sense the policeman in question to beat the suspect to get a confession, even because "both of them had already admitted that they were responsible for Joana's death", said the lawyer António Pragal Colaço."
If she was on remand there's every chance she got a pasting off the inmates.
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The mother was allegedly beaten a day after her confession so no beating happened to get a confession. Sadly you will never see Joana again and the police know who is responsible - the mother and uncle.
"For the Defense of four of the five accused inspectors, it would not make any sense the policeman in question to beat the suspect to get a confession, even because "both of them had already admitted that they were responsible for Joana's death", said the lawyer António Pragal Colaço."
Oh but Joana has been seen again, in Morocco.
Can't you tell, by the ankles?
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Oh but Joana has been seen again, in Morocco.
Can't you tell, by the ankles?
Not wearing lilac socks by any chance ?
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‘ It was my response to you stating the bl**dy obvious‘.
Thanks, I did get that your comment was aimed at me. My point was that if this is the level of disrespect you show towards virtual strangers, how do you treat the actual people in your life. Interpret this as a rhetorical question.
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The mother was allegedly beaten a day after her confession so no beating happened to get a confession. Sadly you will never see Joana again and the police know who is responsible - the mother and uncle.
"For the Defense of four of the five accused inspectors, it would not make any sense the policeman in question to beat the suspect to get a confession, even because "both of them had already admitted that they were responsible for Joana's death", said the lawyer António Pragal Colaço."
That's, a quote from the lawyer for the torturers... Trying to deny torture took place... Not exactly a balanced source
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Is this the one you are referring to, Sadie?
Brilliant. The right hand photo really interests me.
Thank you so much Anthro.
Some months ago I searched everywhere for that and eventually got hold of a copy but it was condensed and adjoining other photos. I didn't know how to seperate the photos or how to stretch the photo in a vertical direction either, so they would be correct and presentable on the forum.
I am busy, but when I have an available time slot, I will try and analyse the similarities between Joana as a (?)7-8 year old and the little girl aged about 11years in the orange top on the Zinat, Morocco photos.
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Re. the Ibiza airport picture and an Ocean Club employee. There are claims that the gym instructor/quiz host is the same person depicted in these photos?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Re. the Ibiza airport picture and an Ocean Club employee. There are claims that the gym instructor/quiz host is the same person depicted in these photos?
Difficult to tell about the left hand photo but whoever she is has a well-filled T-shirt.
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Re. the Ibiza airport picture and an Ocean Club employee. There are claims that the gym instructor/quiz host is the same person depicted in these photos?
I found the Ibiza airport picture of the little girl fascinating. This is the first time I've seen this photograph or heard the rumour this woman and the employee are one and the same.
In my opinion there are indeed many similarities between the two.
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Re. the Ibiza airport picture and an Ocean Club employee. There are claims that the gym instructor/quiz host is the same person depicted in these photos?
You have collected a fabulous range of photos and done a lot of work behind the scenes comparing them.
Like Brie and Jazzi, I can see a good many similarities and think she could be the quiz hostess and gym instructor.
The only thing that bothers me is that she doesn't appear to have the firm body of a gym instructor. Pity that the photo is a bit blurred. Her boobs seem to have filled out too.
Well spotted Anthro.
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No way!!!... boobies far too big. %56&
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And the cankles are different...
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The mother was allegedly beaten a day after her confession so no beating happened to get a confession. Sadly you will never see Joana again and the police know who is responsible - the mother and uncle.
"For the Defense of four of the five accused inspectors, it would not make any sense the policeman in question to beat the suspect to get a confession, even because "both of them had already admitted that they were responsible for Joana's death", said the lawyer António Pragal Colaço."
That's correct but some people still want to believe the opposite. Leonor Cipriano confessed to accidentally killing the girl to save her brother's skin. She knew he would be jailed immediately given his previous criminal record for attempted murder.
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And the cankles are different...
That aside, the girls in Morocco look nothing like Maddie or Joana.
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That's correct but some people still want to believe the opposite. Leonor Cipriano confessed to accidentally killing the girl to save her brother's skin. She knew he would be jailed immediately given his previous criminal record for attempted murder.
If she’d already confessed why was she tortured by the police and why did she retract her confession later and why are you an ardent supporter of the Portuguese police no matter what evidence exists to show that they are at least as likely to be involved in miscarriages of justice as UK police (who you seem to have unlimited contempt for)?
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If she’d already confessed why was she tortured by the police and why did she retract her confession later and why are you an ardent supporter of the Portuguese police no matter what evidence exists to show that they are at least as likely to be involved in miscarriages of justice as UK police (who you seem to have unlimited contempt for)?
I thought the police accused of torture were found not guilty?
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I thought the police accused of torture were found not guilty?
The court ruled that torture had taken place by the PJ. ....they were adjudged to have lied at the trial to try and cover it up. Cipriano was unable to identify her attackers as she had a bag placed on her head.. The officers were found not guilty on the basis it was impossible to prove who carried out the torture
Anaral was found guilty of false testimony... Lying to the court... To cover up the torture
Cipriano was judged to have lied about which policemen beat her.. Although it was accepted she was beaten... She received a further prison sentence for this
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The court ruled that torture had taken place by the PJ. ....they were adjudged to have lied at the trial to try and cover it up. Cipriano was unable to identify her attackers as she had a bag placed on her head.. The officers were found not guilty on the basis it was impossible to prove who carried out the torture
Why didn't defence lawyers get the convictions overturned?
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Why didn't defence lawyers get the convictions overturned?
Which defence lawyers
According to a sceptic Portuguese poster here the Portuguese courts never admit to being wrong and there's never been a miscarriage of justice... Sounds bizarre but that's what he posted
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I thought the police accused of torture were found not guilty?
Yet the court ruled that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured at that time and at that place when adding to her prison sentence for perjury: not even you could dream up anything quite so preposterous.
Oh ... not forgetting that Amaral's suspended sentence for perjury was in relation to falsifying documents relevant to his testimony supporting the accused in this torture trial.
All convoluted ...then so was the Alice in Wonderland story which was also quite dark at times.
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Oh but Joana has been seen again, in Morocco.
Can't you tell, by the ankles?
A phenomenon seems to exist whereby when small children disappear they are 'sighted' all over the place eg: Beaumont Children (Oz), Ben Needham (Kos) and MM (Portugal). And yet when adults disappear, with the exception of Lord Lucan, eg Suzy Lamplugh, Claudia Lawrence and Corrie McKeague we don't seem to have the same 'sightings'!?
Could the reason for this be that small children are less distinguishable and changing?
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Which defence lawyers
According to a sceptic Portuguese poster here the Portuguese courts never admit to being wrong and there's never been a miscarriage of justice... Sounds bizarre but that's what he posted
Portugal is a member of the EU? Article 6 Rights To A Fair Trial.
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Portugal is a member of the EU? Article 6 Rights To A Fair Trial.
Perhaps if she found a lawyer willing to take on her case she could have, a very good case
But the six month deadline passed many years ago
Being part of the EU isn't relevant
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Yet the court ruled that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured at that time and at that place when adding to her prison sentence for perjury: not even you could dream up anything quite so preposterous.
Oh ... not forgetting that Amaral's suspended sentence for perjury was in relation to falsifying documents relevant to his testimony supporting the accused in this torture trial.
All convoluted ...then so was the Alice in Wonderland story which was also quite dark at times.
Since when does thinking/asking amount to dreaming?
Anyway can I have a cite please for the court case into the torture. And can someone explain why the defence lawyers did not seek to have the convictions overturned?
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Why didn't defence lawyers get the convictions overturned?
There are some informative posts in this thread http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg97862#msg97862 which may give you a flavour of the times and are well worth a read.
Incidentally, was it Luz whose post starts the thread who claimed that there are no miscarriages of justice in Portugal?
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Since when does thinking/asking amount to dreaming?
Anyway can I have a cite please for the court case into the torture. And can someone explain why the defence lawyers did not seek to have the convictions overturned?
I've got the whole judgement at home on my pc..
There was an appeal... It was unsuccessful
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There are some informative posts in this thread http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg97862#msg97862 which may give you a flavour of the times and are well worth a read.
Incidentally, was it Luz whose post starts the thread who claimed that there are no miscarriages of justice in Portugal?
No it was Montclair... Who was quite a, well informed poster
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I've got the whole judgement at home on my pc..
There was an appeal... It was unsuccessful
So there must have been some other evidence against LC other than a confession whilst being tortured?
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Since when does thinking/asking amount to dreaming?
Anyway can I have a cite please for the court case into the torture. And can someone explain why the defence lawyers did not seek to have the convictions overturned?
I think it is rather obvious that there are many comparisons to be made between Joana and Madeleine's cases not least the short distance between the places the children disappeared from.
Do you think those who prosecuted Joana's mother for her death and who endeavoured to pull the same stunt with Madeleine's mother were going to make that connection and check it out.
Do you think they were going to check out cases of assaults on children in the Algarve in relation to connections to Madeleine and Joana. Do you think they didn't because they didn't want to find any. After all they had speedily "solved" Joana's case to their satisfaction.
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So there must have been some other evidence against LC other than a confession whilst being tortured?
From what, I have read no... There was blood found in the fridge... But it was never tested for dna and as I recall may even have been animal... Yet the court admitted it as a proven fact... I don't think there was, any real evidence
There was also a confession by her brother. Confessions in Portugal are not admissible unless repeated in court.. The prosecution played a video..
It's been discussed ad nauseam... The conviction is, a disgrace
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So there must have been some other evidence against LC other than a confession whilst being tortured?
With the best of intentions, you are deflecting from the topic which you started.
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Perhaps if she found a lawyer willing to take on her case she could have, a very good case
But the six month deadline passed many years ago
Being part of the EU isn't relevant
I don't have the time or inclination to look at a spent conviction but there's always two sides to an argument.
JC's mother/uncle didn't seem to have support from family, friends, local community, media and high-minded/high profile individuals which would be the norm.
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With the best of intentions, you are deflecting from the topic which you started.
With the best of intentions, I am simply following on from posts made by many others including John and yourself!
In any event the title: 'Is the disappearance of MM connected to other reported crimes on Algarve'?
I believe the disappearance of JC is connected to the thread title/topic, is it not?
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With the best of intentions, I am simply following on from posts made by many others including John and yourself!
In any event the title: 'Is the disappearance of MM connected to other reported crimes on Algarve'?
I believe the disappearance of JC is connected to the thread title/topic, is it not?
Then is there any chance you can discuss the connections of which I think there are many and have said as much in my posts on the subject.
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Then is there any chance you can discuss the connections of which I think there are many and have said as much in my posts on the subject.
No sorry there isn't as I've already said to Davel I do not have the time or inclination. It takes 000's of hours to review criminal cases.
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I don't have the time or inclination to look at a spent conviction but there's always two sides to an argument.
JC's mother/uncle didn't seem to have support from family, friends, local community, media and high-minded/high profile individuals which would be the norm.
But no evidence apart from a confession beaten out if her.
It's, all been discussed at length on the appropriate thread.. Some if us have a detailed knowledge of the case... Saying there's, always two sides is a little simplistic ...but it's best left there
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No sorry there isn't as I've already said to Davel I do not have the time or inclination. It takes 000's of hours to review criminal cases.
You have taken me aback just a little there. Is it a vanity project for you to open threads and then refuse to discuss the topic of that thread if it doesn't fit your narrative?
Do you really fail to grasp the connotations of what you have just posted here. Sadly, I think you do.
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You have taken me aback just a little there. Is it a vanity project for you to open threads and then refuse to discuss the topic of that thread if it doesn't fit your narrative?
Do you really fail to grasp the connotations of what you have just posted here. Sadly, I think you do.
It seems not quite far enough:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563105#msg563105
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It seems not quite far enough:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563105#msg563105
Please elucidate.
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Please elucidate.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563815#msg563815
The thread was set up to debate/discuss as per:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563105#msg563105
I did not introduce JC to this thread:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563281#msg563281
However, regardless of one's views on the case of JC there is more than a tenuous link to the thread title so if some wish to discuss the case of JC then what is the problem? I made one or two posts re JC to which you responded:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11111.msg563795#msg563795
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Another photo of gym instructor and quiz leader: Najoua Chekaya. Her physique is more clear in this picture, I think.
The other Ibiza airport photo.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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What is supposed to be the significance of this airport photo ?
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The girl in the picture.
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The girl in the picture.
Could be anyone.
As Wilkin's partner said, the resort was full of little blonde girls dressed in pink ( I paraphrase).
I imagine the airport would be pretty much the same.
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I am not sure if the link works. This is Luiz Moreno’s theory re. Madeleine
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/58411354_1073589929507936_2397837588036583424_n.docx/RELATORIO-RESUMO-DO-SEQUESTRO-DE-MADELEINE-MCCANN.docx?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=aulFexeGaQAAQkY2IIsT21X3G7_lxlyPR2uttmv-9cFxzGUvSUzsZLF5g&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=290b61d195a4692cfcfc7ffa5fb293fa&oe=5DE344FF&dl=1
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I am not sure if the link works. This is Luiz Moreno’s theory re. Madeleine
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/58411354_1073589929507936_2397837588036583424_n.docx/RELATORIO-RESUMO-DO-SEQUESTRO-DE-MADELEINE-MCCANN.docx?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=aulFexeGaQAAQkY2IIsT21X3G7_lxlyPR2uttmv-9cFxzGUvSUzsZLF5g&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=290b61d195a4692cfcfc7ffa5fb293fa&oe=5DE344FF&dl=1
The man who wanted Scotland Yard to fly him from Brazil to London and to set up a venue where he could give a presentation to the McCanns, Jane Tanner, Sir (sic) David Cameron and other assorted people?
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/BRAZIL_EMAILS.htm
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Yes, it seems his theory involves all suspects ever named in Madeleine’s disappearance. It is interesting reading, though. He also has a number of photographs on his site.
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Since his theory is so elaborate, it is possible that some detail may be of relevance?
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Could be anyone.
As Wilkin's partner said, the resort was full of little blonde girls dressed in pink ( I paraphrase).
I imagine the airport would be pretty much the same.
I see only one there.
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I see only one there.
A single moment in time. Probably 1/120th of a second.
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A single moment in time. Probably 1/120th of a second.
And who knows if it was a significant moment ... pity no-one apparently bothered to check it out when the photo became known.
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And who knows if it was a significant moment ... pity no-one apparently bothered to check it out when the photo became known.
What sort of checks do you think could have been done ? - check for photoshopping perhaps ?
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And who knows if it was a significant moment ... pity no-one apparently bothered to check it out when the photo became known.
When did it become known? Who took it? Which police force did they contact?
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When did it become known? Who took it? Which police force did they contact?
Bit of a disingenuous post there I think, you did post on a thread here about missing children where this was discussed as well as the McCluskey sighting.
Maybe you forgot.
Ike; Andress; Morais; Reis; Havern; Pamalam RIP et al left no stone unturned in their efforts to rubbish this particular photograph after someone apparently came across it in the public domain and sent a copy to Pamalam in the mistaken belief hers was the official Find Madeleine site.
The photograph was apparently emailed from Brazil but the photograph appeared on Saturday, 30 June 2007 in a BBC News item reporting a bomb scare at Ibetha airport.
Topic: Claimed sightings of Madeleine McCann
I have always been slightly bemused by the apparent horror generated by possible sightings of Madeleine McCann.
For example ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6256944.stm the photograph which purported to show Madeleine in Brazil but was actually a photograph taken after a bomb scare in Ibiza ... gave the sceptic fora some light amusement for a time.
Why concentrate on the fact it was a hoax perpetrated probably for financial gain ... and ignore the question of who the healthy fair-haired girl aged three or four in pink trousers, a green top and a blue hat pictured at a Spanish airport is? and why the near apoplexy engendered when children who may have been Madeleine were reported to the authorities?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6532.msg263097#msg263097
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Bit of a disingenuous post there I think, you did post on a thread here about missing children where this was discussed as well as the McCluskey sighting.
Maybe you forgot.
Ike; Andress; Morais; Reis; Havern; Pamalam RIP et al left no stone unturned in their efforts to rubbish this particular photograph after someone apparently came across it in the public domain and sent a copy to Pamalam in the mistaken belief hers was the official Find Madeleine site.
The photograph was apparently emailed from Brazil but the photograph appeared on Saturday, 30 June 2007 in a BBC News item reporting a bomb scare at Ibetha airport.
Topic: Claimed sightings of Madeleine McCann
I have always been slightly bemused by the apparent horror generated by possible sightings of Madeleine McCann.
For example ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6256944.stm the photograph which purported to show Madeleine in Brazil but was actually a photograph taken after a bomb scare in Ibiza ... gave the sceptic fora some light amusement for a time.
Why concentrate on the fact it was a hoax perpetrated probably for financial gain ... and ignore the question of who the healthy fair-haired girl aged three or four in pink trousers, a green top and a blue hat pictured at a Spanish airport is? and why the near apoplexy engendered when children who may have been Madeleine were reported to the authorities?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6532.msg263097#msg263097
I don't think people were amused by a hoax at all. They were probably amused because others fell for it and got all excited. You seem to think every child worldwide with a vague similarity to Madeleine McCann should have investigated. Surely you realise the impossibility of that?
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I don't think people were amused by a hoax at all. They were probably amused because others fell for it and got all excited. You seem to think every child worldwide with a vague similarity to Madeleine McCann should have investigated. Surely you realise the impossibility of that?
How can you tell from the photograph alone that the girl is not Madeleine McCann? What do you find funny about people believing it could have been her?
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I don't think people were amused by a hoax at all. They were probably amused because others fell for it and got all excited. You seem to think every child worldwide with a vague similarity to Madeleine McCann should have investigated. Surely you realise the impossibility of that?
The point is ... it was not a hoax. Prominent sceptics claimed it was ... why on earth would they want to do that?
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The point is ... it was not a hoax. Prominent sceptics claimed it was ... why on earth would they want to do that?
So did this 'Brazilian' chap get his flight to London and did he make his presentation to all the people he wanted present?
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So did this 'Brazilian' chap get his flight to London and did he make his presentation to all the people he wanted present?
When did I mention this boy from Brazil making a presentation? I posted about a BBC news item accompanied by the photograph of an unidentified child who looks very much like Madeleine McCann.
If you wish to add anything about a presentation to the discussion, it is your prerogative to do so.
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So it looks as if it was all a lot of to do about nothing as No Madeleine materialised following publication of the photo.
What a surprise
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So it looks as if it was all a lot of to do about nothing as No Madeleine materialised following publication of the photo.
What a surprise
What efforts if any were made to trace the men and child in the photo?
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What efforts if any were made to trace the men and child in the photo?
None as far as I know.
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So it looks as if it was all a lot of to do about nothing as No Madeleine materialised following publication of the photo.
What a surprise
Of course she didn't and nor would she
(a) if she wasn't looked for
(b) and they were part of an evacuation from an airport so were obviously due to board a flight to somewhere else
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When did I mention this boy from Brazil making a presentation? I posted about a BBC news item accompanied by the photograph of an unidentified child who looks very much like Madeleine McCann.
If you wish to add anything about a presentation to the discussion, it is your prerogative to do so.
Oh, so you meant the photograph wasn't a hoax? You just got all excited because it contained a child who, in your opinion, looked like Madeleine McCann? You think someone somewhere should have checked?
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Oh, so you meant the photograph wasn't a hoax? You just got all excited because it contained a child who, in your opinion, looked like Madeleine McCann? You think someone somewhere should have checked?
Yes I do. What is your objection to looking for a missing child?
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Yes I do. What is your objection to looking for a missing child?
I don't have any objection to looking for a missing child, I just don't think scrutinising newspaper photographs is a sensible methodology.
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I don't have any objection to looking for a missing child, I just don't think scrutinising newspaper photographs is a sensible methodology.
also i think some supporters use emotional langauge IE missing child etc maddie if alive isnt a missing child she is nearly a adult
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i dont think people should be putting random images on this forum that they think is maddie on this forum
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i dont think people should be putting random images on this forum that they think is maddie on this forum
Unfortunately there are people who think that no-one matters except the McCanns. They think that if some over enthusiastic Madeleine hunter points at a child every policeman in the world should drop what they're doing and pounce on it, DNA testing kit in hand. That's my opinion anyway.
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Unfortunately there are people who think that no-one matters except the McCanns. They think that if some over enthusiastic Madeleine hunter points at a child every policeman in the world should drop what they're doing and pounce on it, DNA testing kit in hand. That's my opinion anyway.
Which is quite probably off topic anyway.
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Which is quite probably off topic anyway.
Not to mention inaccurate and goading.
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also i think some supporters use emotional langauge IE missing child etc maddie if alive isnt a missing child she is nearly a adult
”Missing” is emotional language now is it? What then is “abandoned” or “neglected” or “tossed in a bin”?
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Which is quite probably off topic anyway.
So is discussing a photograph taken in Ibiza.
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Unfortunately there are people who think that no-one matters except the McCanns. They think that if some over enthusiastic Madeleine hunter points at a child every policeman in the world should drop what they're doing and pounce on it, DNA testing kit in hand. That's my opinion anyway.
so what happene if someone saw a person in the last ten years that they were convinced was Maddie....should these sightings be ignored
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so what happene if someone saw a person in the last ten years that they were convinced was Maddie....should these sightings be ignored
They shouldn't speculate on the internet or in the media. They should inform the authorities and leave it at that.
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They shouldn't speculate on the internet or in the media. They should inform the authorities and leave it at that.
At which point this Forum would be defunct.
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They shouldn't speculate on the internet or in the media. They should inform the authorities and leave it at that.
and what should the authorities do...investigate or ignore...you speculate on the internet quite a lot
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They shouldn't speculate on the internet or in the media. They should inform the authorities and leave it at that.
Which authority, though?
Depending upon where the alleged sighting has been, police may not be in the least interested in pursuing it without a legal request from Portugal or UK, as these are the onlt 2 forced supposedly doing any investigation
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Which authority, though?
Depending upon where the alleged sighting has been, police may not be in the least interested in pursuing it without a legal request from Portugal or UK, as these are the onlt 2 forced supposedly doing any investigation
what that means is that if maddie was still alive her abductor would have little fear of taking her out in public...apart from the very early days
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That may well be correct, assuming that she lived beyond May 3rd 2007
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At which point this Forum would be defunct.
The forum has plenty of evidence to discuss. There's no need for members to speculate about random photographs of children.
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The forum has plenty of evidence to discuss. There's no need for members to speculate about random photographs of children.
So long as you don't want to.
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Which authority, though?
Depending upon where the alleged sighting has been, police may not be in the least interested in pursuing it without a legal request from Portugal or UK, as these are the onlt 2 forced supposedly doing any investigation
The role of the public is to report. The role of the authorities is to decide whether to act on a report.
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The forum has plenty of evidence to discuss. There's no need for members to speculate about random photographs of children.
What does “discussing the evidence” lead to? Give us an example of evidence that has been discussed, and to what useful end? What actually are you hoping to achieve by your daily forensic examination of the case, and to what end?
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What does “discussing the evidence” lead to? Give us an example of evidence that has been discussed, and to what useful end? What actually are you hoping to achieve by your daily forensic examination of the case, and to what end?
Where does discussing fantasies lead to? Nowhere imo.
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Oh, so you meant the photograph wasn't a hoax? You just got all excited because it contained a child who, in your opinion, looked like Madeleine McCann? You think someone somewhere should have checked?
I do wonder what the excitment is about. what feature of MBM can be seen from this picture? none can be seen close up. The only similarities in this picture is the clothes she is wearing. very similar to the one of MBM holding tennis balls! OMG... NO... Just had a thought. you don't think the 'jimmy abductor blloke went back to get MBM's Clothes, and why didn't the family report this> OMG too scarie...'
I have compliled a file as I am outraged-and sent it to FBI CSI BBC and BS Inc.
What other crimes in the Algarve could be associated with MBM's disappearance? If it is the sex predator interfering with British children- then this was not brought to the attention of thepolice, and media back home as and when it happened.
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Where does discussing fantasies lead to? Nowhere imo.
where does discussing anything here lead to...nowhere
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where does discussing anything here lead to...nowhere
I think knowledge has been added.
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I think knowledge has been added.
And the knowledge you think has been gained has taken us nowhere
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And the knowledge you think has been gained has taken us nowhere
I'm interested in correctly recording the evidence, not in getting anywhere.
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I think knowledge has been added.
It has, and it is also interesting reading the many theories out there.
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It has, and it is also interesting reading the many theories out there.
i think its good to have something to laugh at...to see how gullible people are when fed the type of anti mccann propaganda we have seen....such as gunit saying Smith identified gerry as smithman...he didnt
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i think its good to have something to laugh at...to see how gullible people are when fed the type of anti mccann propaganda we have seen....such as gunit saying Smith identified gerry as smithman...he didnt
Independent thinkers are Anti-McCann? this would make supporters Anti Madeliene.Making all sorts of excuses for the parents. And believing that if she were alive , she would want to be re united with her family who abandoned her, after she told them off about being left alone.
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Independent thinkers are Anti-McCann? this would make supporters Anti Madeliene.Making all sorts of excuses for the parents. And believing that if she were alive , she would want to be re united with her family who abandoned her, after she told them off about being left alone.
im an independent thinker and I support the mccanns claim to innocence,...so your post doesnt really make much sense ...
as an independent thinker I can see scenarios where maddie would...and wouldnt want to be reunited
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im an independent thinker and I support the mccanns claim to innocence,...so your post doesnt really make much sense ...
as an independent thinker I can see scenarios where maddie would...and wouldnt want to be reunited
There is no point in trying to look smart; it isn't working. Over using elipsis (...) is not the way to go to challenge others about their posts not making sense.
Supporters in the McCann forum are NOT independent thinkers with regards to MBMs disappearance.
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There is no point in trying to look smart; it isn't working. Over using elipsis (...) is not the way to go to challenge others about their posts not making sense.
Supporters in the McCann forum are NOT independent thinkers with regards to MBMs disappearance.
I dont have to look smart...I am smart.
you need an imo in your post. I am an independent thinker
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I dont have to look smart...I am smart.
you need an imo in your post. I am an independent thinker
You need an IMO about you being smart. others may have a different IMO with that regards.
You do not present indpendent thinking with regards to the McCann forum. in many peoples opinion.
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Where does discussing fantasies lead to? Nowhere imo.
You didn’t answer my question. Was that because you were unable to? I would suggest your forensic analysis leads to the same destination you have cited above, so where does that leave us?
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I'm interested in correctly recording the evidence, not in getting anywhere.
What valuable corrections do you think you have contributed to the greater understanding of this case?
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You need an IMO about you being smart. others may have a different IMO with that regards.
You do not present indpendent thinking with regards to the McCann forum. in many peoples opinion.
Define “independent thinking”.
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Asking questions to goad will not recieve a response. Just Saying.
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Touchy. It was not a goading question. Define “independent thinker” gives Miss Taken the perfect opportunity to explain how she is better than me in the brain department. Oh well, I will just have to guess at what she means in this instance. An “independent thinker” is someone who believes strongly that the McCanns are a pair of child neglecting s..mbags who most probably know where their daughter’s buried. Am I right or am I right?
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I do wonder what the excitment is about. what feature of MBM can be seen from this picture? none can be seen close up. The only similarities in this picture is the clothes she is wearing. very similar to the one of MBM holding tennis balls! OMG... NO... Just had a thought. you don't think the 'jimmy abductor blloke went back to get MBM's Clothes, and why didn't the family report this> OMG too scarie...'
I have compliled a file as I am outraged-and sent it to FBI CSI BBC and BS Inc.
What other crimes in the Algarve could be associated with MBM's disappearance? If it is the sex predator interfering with British children- then this was not brought to the attention of thepolice, and media back home as and when it happened.
Joana Cipriana
Carolina Santos
Rene Hassee maybe.
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also i think some supporters use emotional langauge IE missing child etc maddie if alive isnt a missing child she is nearly a adult
Madeleine is a missing child, she is 16 she will be an adult at 18.
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Madeleine is a missing child, she is 16 she will be an adult at 18.
Then that'd make her a missing teenager, not really a child, if she were alive, which she isn't imo.
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Madeleine is a missing child, she is 16 she will be an adult at 18.
I can't remember anyone referring to Maddie as a missing child... Some people want to argue about anything.... A bit pathetic afaiac
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Then that'd make her a missing teenager, not really a child, if she were alive, which she isn't imo.
You become a teenager at 13 so is that not a child? Madeleine is a child until she is an adult at 18.
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It is quite possible that Madeleine will never be an adult, so perhaps child is the correct terminology.
In a couple of years, it will be more correct to say that Madeleine went missing as a child.
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It is quite possible that Madeleine will never be an adult, so perhaps child is the correct terminology.
In a couple of years, it will be more correct to say that Madeleine went missing as a child.
as ive posted carlys claim is rubbish....I havent seen any supporter refer to maddie as a missing child....and a search of posts confirms this
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as ive posted carlys claim is rubbish....I havent seen any supporter refer to maddie as a missing child....and a search of posts confirms this
You become a teenager at 13 so is that not a child? Madeleine is a child until she is an adult at 18.
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What’s the big deal about “missing child”? Does the term cause offense to snowflake sceptics now?
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What’s the big deal about “missing child”? Does the term cause offense to snowflake sceptics now?
Not this snowflake; just pointing out Davros' error [Davros throws cat across the room and mashes keyboard with mittened hands]
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Not this snowflake; just pointing out Davros' error [Davros throws cat across the room and mashes keyboard with mittened hands]
Who wrote “missing child” then, apart from Carlymichelle?
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Who wrote “missing child” then, apart from Carlymichelle?
By definition, Lace did. Unless of course you're mimicking Davros and going for the old semantics routine. Lace pointed out that she's legally a child, and she's missing, ergo, 'missing child'.
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By definition, Lace did. Unless of course you're mimicking Davros and going for the old semantics routine. Lace pointed out that she's legally a child, and she's missing, ergo, 'missing child'.
OK, I see you need to score a point against Davel, congrats on your win Big Man.
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OK, I see you need to score a point against Davel, congrats on your win Big Man.
I know right? Virtual, exploding fist bump is in order. Boom!
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I know right? Virtual, exploding fist bump is in order. Boom!
Out of interest how old are you?
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Out of interest how old are you?
Earth years? 71.
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Earth years? 71.
I’m guessing you’re dyslexic and meant to write 17 which fits better.
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I’m guessing you’re dyslexic and meant to write 17 which fits better.
Yeh, that's it, 17. I'm dyslexic, you see.
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Not this snowflake; just pointing out Davros' error [Davros throws cat across the room and mashes keyboard with mittened hands]
Davros sighs at the Ginerals lack of perception...insight ...comprehension etc.
carly claimed some sceptics used the term "missing child"...in fact no one has ever used that term on the forum re maddie, according to the search facility , apart from....Carly herself......so what an own goal bt carly.
the fact that lace and others have used the word child inresponse to carlys post is not a reason to celebrate...but perhaps you did because thats about as close as you can get to proving me wrong
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Davros sighs at the Ginerals lack of perception...insight ...comprehension etc.
carly claimed some sceptics used the term "missing child"...in fact no one has ever used that term on the forum re maddie, according to the search facility , apart from....Carly herself......so what an own goal bt carly.
the fact that lace and others have used the word child inresponse to carlys post is not a reason to celebrate...but perhaps you did because thats about as close as you can get to proving me wrong
No need to get all irate. Being wrong is something you do all the time, but I do understand that becoming aware of the issue is a shock.
And take the mittens off.
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Yeh, that's it, 17. I'm dyslexic, you see.
Nice to be right on both counts. 8)--))
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No need to get all irate. Being wrong is something you do all the time, but I do understand that becoming aware of the issue is a shock.
And take the mittens off.
im not really bothered....
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im not really bothered....
Of course you are bothered.