Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on August 05, 2018, 06:56:40 PM
Title: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 05, 2018, 06:56:40 PM
"Blood
There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."
Now is that true? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
Why did Gerry McCann Blogs by Pamalam ever report that?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2018, 07:34:54 PM
There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."
Now is that true? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
Why did Gerry McCann Blogs by Pamalam ever report that?
Apparently the papers were rife with it at the time but the only mention of footprints of any kind to be found is in the files are taken from the Portuguese forensics report ...
Snip Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination. Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
So bloody footprints appear to be yet another newspaper invention.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 05, 2018, 07:56:13 PM
OK but it was good enough for Pamalam to include that comment in the site.
Also it was found on the Northern side of the building. When was this found? Before or after the use of the Dragon's blood?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2018, 09:00:05 PM
OK but it was good enough for Pamalam to include that comment in the site.
Also it was found on the Northern side of the building. When was this found? Before or after the use of the Dragon's blood?
I don't think it was found at all, Robitty, just a myth. If there had been such evidence the Portuguese crime scene specialists would have logged it and it would have been photographed and that would have been recorded in the files.
It wasn't.
I believe out of the same stable there was something about a bloody footprint on the Renault bumper.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 05, 2018, 09:10:19 PM
I don't think it was found at all, Robitty, just a myth. If there had been such evidence the Portuguese crime scene specialists would have logged it and it would have been photographed and that would have been recorded in the files.
It wasn't.
I believe out of the same stable there was something about a bloody footprint on the Renault bumper.
Whoever wrote that about the bumper can't have realised the Renault wasn't hired till at least 20 days after the event. When I think about it, blood on a foot print have could come from standing on a mouse. Therefore blood on a bumper is only really important if it was human blood and then human blood from a female, and even more damning if it was Madeleine's blood.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 05, 2018, 11:05:21 PM
Pamalam's site has many many media reports. Just because they're there doesn't mean they are being endorsed.
I think it may have been discussed in the past. But if it was just a PJ shoe covered in dragon blood it is hardly significant to even write about IMO.
"Another black powder is called Dragon's blood; it uses the powdered resin of the Daemonorops draco plant." https://sciencing.com/ingredients-fingerprinting-powder-8592401.html
The fingerprinting powder used by the PJ was definitely red so it might not be called Dragon's blood.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 12:36:20 AM
A Google search for the following terms has come up with a few good results.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html "A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
The existence of the two marks, which has never been revealed until today, is apparently at the heart of renewed suspicion that the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a 'moderate' chance that the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive."
Size 5 shoe - is that too small for a man? Who had shoes that matched the shoe print? It is odd that the print was made heading toward the bedroom? Pamalam was reporting it was out the apartment but here they seem to be talking about a print inside the apartment.
In the next hit: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/world/maddie-footprint-clues-emerge/story-e6frea8l-1111114645349?sv=8c673cfa3f3f15c0c23193a7f687d18e
"A BLOODY footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to a UK newspaper. The Mail on Sunday reports the existence of the two marks, revealed for the first time yesterday, is believed to be at the heart of renewed suspicion the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a "moderate" chance the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive. "
Was that right, are there forensic results not in the file?
Further down "The FSS results conclude the footprint matched the pattern of a mark found above the rear bumper of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car, a print which Portuguese police apparently believe is consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot. Experts could find no definite traces of blood in that print. "
I ask you how does a shoe print differ when a body is involved?
Third hit, something closer to home, http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2871.msg98965#msg98965 "The partial footprint found outside children's bedroom window."
Most posters sceptical about the shoe print but this particular post has brought up a very interesting fact that had not been appreciated by myself till now, so much to the point that I struggle to believe it. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2871.msg99300#msg99300 talking about who closed the window! "Nah, but good old Sylv was.
S.B. further recalls that she entered the room where Madeleine had been sleeping. She now remembers that the door was closed. The inside of the room was dark. The shutters were down, and light entered only through its holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who accompanied S.B. during this visit, with the GNR officers also present, said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still sleeping inside, which S.B. could verify as true. Gerry mentioned that when he noticed that Madeleine was missing, he had found the window and shutters open, and the curtains fluttering."
So that bedroom window was not closed until the GNR had turned up at the apartment. - I never knew that!
Maybe I've read that wrong and it is only the fact that "the babies were still sleeping inside" which Silvia Batista could verify as true. Not that Gerry actually closed the window while she was present, but just that mentioned that he closed the window.
Which is it?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2018, 10:46:14 AM
A Google search for the following terms has come up with a few good results.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html "A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
The existence of the two marks, which has never been revealed until today, is apparently at the heart of renewed suspicion that the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a 'moderate' chance that the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive."
Size 5 shoe - is that too small for a man? Who had shoes that matched the shoe print? It is odd that the print was made heading toward the bedroom? Pamalam was reporting it was out the apartment but here they seem to be talking about a print inside the apartment.
In the next hit: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/world/maddie-footprint-clues-emerge/story-e6frea8l-1111114645349?sv=8c673cfa3f3f15c0c23193a7f687d18e
"A BLOODY footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to a UK newspaper. The Mail on Sunday reports the existence of the two marks, revealed for the first time yesterday, is believed to be at the heart of renewed suspicion the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a "moderate" chance the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive. "
Was that right, are there forensic results not in the file?
Further down "The FSS results conclude the footprint matched the pattern of a mark found above the rear bumper of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car, a print which Portuguese police apparently believe is consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot. Experts could find no definite traces of blood in that print. "
I ask you how does a shoe print differ when a body is involved?
Third hit, something closer to home, http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2871.msg98965#msg98965 "The partial footprint found outside children's bedroom window."
Most posters sceptical about the shoe print but this particular post has brought up a very interesting fact that had not been appreciated by myself till now, so much to the point that I struggle to believe it. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2871.msg99300#msg99300 talking about who closed the window! "Nah, but good old Sylv was.
S.B. further recalls that she entered the room where Madeleine had been sleeping. She now remembers that the door was closed. The inside of the room was dark. The shutters were down, and light entered only through its holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who accompanied S.B. during this visit, with the GNR officers also present, said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still sleeping inside, which S.B. could verify as true. Gerry mentioned that when he noticed that Madeleine was missing, he had found the window and shutters open, and the curtains fluttering."
So that bedroom window was not closed until the GNR had turned up at the apartment. - I never knew that!
Maybe I've read that wrong and it is only the fact that "the babies were still sleeping inside" which Silvia Batista could verify as true. Not that Gerry actually closed the window while she was present, but just that mentioned that he closed the window.
Which is it?
Size 5?
Well that aint a man; it aint Kate, she has big feet from pictures and height: It aint the little ones. So what woman ... or youth is it?
Anyway, was there any blood component in it ? If it was the forensic powder being walked about, then the footprint happened after the event.
Without certain knowledge that it was blood, (and not make believe ... there was plenty of that around at the time) my feeling is that it is another myth. BUT keep it on the back boiler, in case there is a remote chance it is of importance. Dont think so personally.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: faithlilly on August 06, 2018, 11:14:51 AM
Pamalam provides a wonderful database, packed with reports and images that we need and use .... Well done Pamalam .... and I thank her for that .
However, from comments on the pages of her website, she presents comments and articles that, IMO, are biased against The Mccanns.
I believe that she is firmly against The Mccanns. For this reason, apart from facts, I am cautious about what she says on her webpages.
If she were to remove these IMO adverse comments, I would gladly make a decent contribution to help keep her webpage running.
The long and short of this post is .... Can you trust a biased website to give unbiased information? I personally find it difficult.
Before the abnormal, bullying, CITES demands come up, I am not providing any cites. Go and look and judge for yourselves.
The problem is not once in 11 years have supporters of the McCanns even attempted to put together a similar database as Pamalam and Nigel. I think it’s bad form to criticise those who make an effort when you and your fellow supporters have made no effort yourselves.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2018, 11:20:12 AM
What are we to make of all of this? There can only be so many scenarios, either the forensics report did exist showing these blood stained footprints or it didn't. Would the British media be so callous as to invent such a story?
Was this in effect yet another example of the FSS leaking preliminary reports which never made it to the files or was the entire thing a worthless media invention intended to smear the parents?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 11:38:56 AM
What are we to make of all of this? There can only be so many scenarios, either the forensics report did exist showing these blood stained footprints or it didn't. Would the British media be so callous as to invent such a story?
Was this in effect yet another example of the FSS leaking preliminary reports which never made it to the files or was the entire thing a worthless media invention intended to smear the parents?
I don't think there ever was, a leaked preliminary report.... But there was lots of false stories to smear the parents
Could we have a cite fir this leaked preliminary report.. Could you put it on the list Rob
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2018, 11:43:01 AM
Well that aint a man; it aint Kate, she has big feet from pictures and height: It aint the little ones. So what woman ... or youth is it?
Anyway, was there any blood component in it ? If it was the forensic powder being walked about, then the footprint happened after the event.
Without certain knowledge that it was blood, (and not make believe ... there was plenty of that around at the time) my feeling is that it is another myth. BUT keep it on the back boiler, in case there is a remote chance it is of importance. Dont think so personally.
Here is a list of shoe sizes https://www.leftlanesports.com/popup_shoesize.htm
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 12:18:05 PM
What are we to make of all of this? There can only be so many scenarios, either the forensics report did exist showing these blood stained footprints or it didn't. Would the British media be so callous as to invent such a story?
Was this in effect yet another example of the FSS leaking preliminary reports which never made it to the files or was the entire thing a worthless media invention intended to smear the parents?
What I have found from this study was that the GMB site had reported the shoe print had been found outside the bedroom window, whereas all the articles on the topic had the shoe print found internal to the apartment.
There were no pools of blood in the apartment for the person to walk through to get blood on the shoe, so they tended to say it came in on the shoe from outside somewhere.
So in some way I was heartened by these reports as it supported the theory that Madeleine had been injured whilst out of the building, and I thought Kate or one of the other women might have brought the blood in on their shoes as Kate did her check or when they returned to check out what Kate was saying after the alarm was raised.
[I was incorrect here- only the MOJ forum says it was outside the window.]
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 12:23:59 PM
He isn't... He is talking about a leaked preliminary report.... Leaked by the FSS.... That's a, serious accusation.. There doesn't seem anything real to support this
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 12:28:32 PM
He isn't... He is talking about a leaked preliminary report.... Leaked by the FSS.... That's a, serious accusation.. There doesn't seem anything real to support this
Could we have a cite.... I don't think there will be a cite because I don't think it's true.... Just lies from Levy... Imo
Brunt said there was blood splatter and 100 % match to Maddie... All rubbish
You've had your cite. Whether it was a bluff or for real, the police are allowed to lie in order to put pressure on suspects. One way or other the PJ told Martin Brunt they had an interim report. That is all we know. I have not seen a copy of it. I would love to see the copy too.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 12:31:34 PM
You've had your cite. Whether it was a bluff or for real, the police are allowed to lie in order to put pressure on suspects. One way or other the PJ told Martin Brunt they had an interim report. That is all we know. I have not seen a copy of it. I would love to see the copy too.
There has been no cite that mentions a leaked preliminary report from the FSS... Which indicates, there never was one
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 12:33:27 PM
He isn't... He is talking about a leaked preliminary report.... Leaked by the FSS.... That's a, serious accusation.. There doesn't seem anything real to support this
There were three claims, firstly the Evening Standard claimed that they had seen a FSS report claiming bloodied footprints. Secondly we had the claim by Amaral that the initial results of forensic tests issued to the PJ contained damning evidence but that the subsequent report didn't. Thirdly we had the claims by Brunt relating to the blood and DNA which no doubt relate back to Amaral.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2018, 12:52:05 PM
There were three claims, firstly the Evening Standard claimed that they had seen a FSS report claiming bloodied footprints. Secondly we had the claim by Amaral that the initial results of forensic tests issued to the PJ contained damning evidence but that the subsequent report didn't. Thirdly we had the claims by Brunt relating to the blood and DNA which no doubt relate back to Amaral.
That is why I think this report is significant. If the FSS issued a report of a blooded shoe print size 5-6 coming from inside the apartment, even if the blood DNA was inconclusive (as to being from Madeleine), the blood still had to come from somewhere. If Kate didn't wear size 5-6 shoes, then it was on someone else's shoe. But it still came in and the blood was still fresh enough to run down, to be smudged onto the floor.
That to me is like a little breakthrough in this case.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 06, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
That is why I think this report is significant. If the FSS issued a report of a blooded shoe print size 5-6. inside the apartment even if the blood DNA was inconclusive (as to being from Madeleine) the blood still had to come from somewhere. If Kate didn't wear size 5-6 shoes it was on someone else's shoe. But it still came in and the blood was still fresh enough to run down, to be smudged onto the floor.
That to me is like a little breakthrough in this case.
How can you be a mod and perpetuate such myths?
Cite for a bloody shoe print, please.
Don't bother, there wasn't a bloody shoe print.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 01:12:11 PM
There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."
Now is that true? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
Why did Gerry McCann Blogs by Pamalam ever report that?
Maybe "just outside the bedroom" doesn't mean outside the apartment but near the bedroom, but inside the apartment near the bedroom!
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 06, 2018, 01:26:43 PM
The problem is not once in 11 years have supporters of the McCanns even attempted to put together a similar database as Pamalam and Nigel. I think it’s bad form to criticise those who make an effort when you and your fellow supporters have made no effort yourselves.
Can you explain why anyone would want to?
In the vast majority of missing person cases no-one sees the value in compiling libraries of erroneous information? Once the truth has been established via investigation or as and when the police release updated information don't the majority move on afresh?
Eleven year old reports of the bloody shoe print have in my opinion long been discounted and therefore bear no relevance to anything pertaining to Madeleine or to the current investigation of her case.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 06, 2018, 01:32:04 PM
The claim in these stories seems to be that the FSS leaked to the UK media.
The footprint made in blood outside Madeleine's bedroom story is associated with the Portuguese forensic examination in which the FSS had absolutely no involvement.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 01:33:57 PM
There is also the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."
Now is that true? http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
Why did Gerry McCann Blogs by Pamalam ever report that?
What I'm struggling with now is the quote I copied and pasted from this page doesn't appear to be there any more! Did our thread here influence the GMB site? [Next day I was able to locate paragraph OK]
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 01:37:21 PM
There were three claims, firstly the Evening Standard claimed that they had seen a FSS report claiming bloodied footprints. Secondly we had the claim by Amaral that the initial results of forensic tests issued to the PJ contained damning evidence but that the subsequent report didn't. Thirdly we had the claims by Brunt relating to the blood and DNA which no doubt relate back to Amaral.
are you claiming the evening standard had seen a FSS report...that has to be untrue
amaral misunderstood the evidence...he thought it was damning...still no cite for a leaked report
brunt was imply repeating what the local media was saying
no real evidence to support any of it
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 06, 2018, 01:40:00 PM
What I'm struggling with now is the quote I copied and pasted from this page doesn't appear to be there any more! Did our thread here influence the GMB site?
Nope ... I don't think our thread here on this particular subject inspired anything other than a belly laugh or slight bemusement in the real world.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 06, 2018, 01:40:40 PM
What I'm struggling with now is the quote I copied and pasted from this page doesn't appear to be there any more! Did our thread here influence the GMB site?
It's still there Rob?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 01:43:49 PM
are you claiming the evening standard had seen a FSS report...that has to be untrue
amaral misunderstood the evidence...he thought it was damning...still no cite for a leaked report
brunt was imply repeating what the local media was saying
no real evidence to support any of it
From the report "Part of the report shown to this newspaper reveals that officers who examined the McCanns' apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve after Madeleine went missing on May 3 discovered a 'partial footwear mark', believed to be from a size 5 or 6 shoe, just outside the bedroom.
It adds that it 'appeared to have a blood imprint' that was visible to the naked eye.
The FSS results conclude that the footprint matched the pattern of a mark found above the rear bumper of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car – a print which Portuguese police apparently believe is consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot."
Was it a faked FSS report?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 01:45:35 PM
Well I have hit the link twice and searched for the words and it didn't come up at my end. OK I'll check again tomorrow. [Next day I was able to locate paragraph OK]
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 02:09:31 PM
The original coordinator in the case is on record saying there was so you either believe him or not.
Again... Do you have the cite of his exact words.... I think he eas confused as he was about the alerts in Jersey... Didn't Paulo Reiis post here there was no preliminary report
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 06, 2018, 04:52:43 PM
Again... Do you have the cite of his exact words.... I think he eas confused as he was about the alerts in Jersey... Didn't Paulo Reiis post here there was no preliminary report
I don't know why you are making such an issue about this. Anyone familiar with the case and Amaral's interviews over the last 11 years will know that he claimed that the FSS briefed him initially but then failed to include the information in their final report. At the end of the day he did say it but only he knows the truth of it. The coordinator or lead detective in any investigation will always be privy to information that others might not necessarily ever know. The police work on a need to know basis, if someone doesn't need to know something then they aren't told.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
I don't know why you are making such an issue about this. Anyone familiar with the case and Amaral's interviews over the last 11 years will know that he claimed that the FSS briefed him initially but then failed to include the information in their final report. At the end of the day he did say it but only he knows the truth of it. The coordinator or lead detective in any investigation will always be privy to information that others might not necessarily ever know. The police work on a need to know basis, if someone doesn't need to know something then they aren't told.
Amaral does not speak English so could not be briefed by the FSS.... More like amaral was confused imo..... Amaral may well know nothing more than we know because there is nothing more to know
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 06, 2018, 05:55:37 PM
Amaral does not speak English so could not be briefed by the FSS.... More like amaral was confused imo..... Amaral may well know nothing more than we know because there is nothing more to know
Very simple, the FSS spoke to him via one of his officers who could speak English. I think you are burying your head in the sand if you believe for a moment that Amaral's knowledge of the case is restricted to the published files. The police receive information from many sources, some of it confidential, much is never repeated openly let alone publicly.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2018, 06:18:31 PM
The footprint made in blood outside Madeleine's bedroom story is associated with the Portuguese forensic examination in which the FSS had absolutely no involvement.
So the media were effectively making all that bs up?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 06:22:31 PM
Very simple, the FSS spoke to him via one of his officers who could speak English. I think you are burying your head in the sand if you believe for a moment that Amaral's knowledge of the case is restricted to the published files. The police receive information from many sources, some of it confidential, much is never repeated openly let alone publicly.
So amaral received an explanation of the FSS findings secnond hand from an officer whose english we dont know the standard of..it seems more like it to me that amaral heard 15 markers and thought hed hit the jackpot....but that was not the case when it was explained properly. As for amaral having some special knowledge of undisclosed facts...he can only have them if they exist...and we have no evidence taht they do//this claim is being made to criticise the FSS with no real evidence to support it....and to speculate that amaral may have inside knowledge....maybe involving the mccanns...again with no real evidence to support it...
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 06:24:08 PM
So the media were effectively making all that bs up?
if you listed to Brunt on the link you posted.....he was repeating what was in the local media...perhaps it was elements in teh PJ...who were leaking their theories and the press reporting them
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 06, 2018, 06:31:06 PM
So the media were effectively making all that bs up?
I think they were.
It is recorded in the forensic report that the crime scene was a wreck with dragons blood everywhere; there were footprints there too; to the uninitiated it could have looked as if a blood bath had taken place. The forensic team would have run tests and checked out anything that looked like blood.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 06, 2018, 06:35:12 PM
So amaral received an explanation of the FSS findings secnond hand from an officer whose english we dont know the standard of..it seems more like it to me that amaral heard 15 markers and thought hed hit the jackpot....but that was not the case when it was explained properly. As for amaral having some special knowledge of undisclosed facts...he can only have them if they exist...and we have no evidence taht they do//this claim is being made to criticise the FSS with no real evidence to support it....and to speculate that amaral may have inside knowledge....maybe involving the mccanns...again with no real evidence to support it...
one would have to question why he left all the explosive evidence out of his best-selling book...
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 06, 2018, 06:52:08 PM
So amaral received an explanation of the FSS findings secnond hand from an officer whose english we dont know the standard of..it seems more like it to me that amaral heard 15 markers and thought hed hit the jackpot....but that was not the case when it was explained properly. As for amaral having some special knowledge of undisclosed facts...he can only have them if they exist...and we have no evidence taht they do//this claim is being made to criticise the FSS with no real evidence to support it....and to speculate that amaral may have inside knowledge....maybe involving the mccanns...again with no real evidence to support it...
Amaral will have many more facts about the Madeleine case than have ever been revealed publicly, I'm afraid that knowledge goes with the territory he was occupying and that is a fact and not an opinion.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 06, 2018, 07:10:29 PM
Amaral will have many more facts about the Madeleine case than have ever been revealed publicly, I'm afraid that knowledge goes with the territory he was occupying and that is a fact and not an opinion.
I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:22:46 PM
I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports.
you are relying on speculation and your conclusions will be tainted by your belief in that speculation...Harrison tells us exactly what Grime told amaral in a meeting with the PJ..and its just what Grime and Harrison say in the files
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:23:59 PM
Amaral will have many more facts about the Madeleine case than have ever been revealed publicly, I'm afraid that knowledge goes with the territory he was occupying and that is a fact and not an opinion.
to suggest he knows something of significance is opinion..........not fact
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:31:32 PM
I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports.
Based upon review of the case law below, an alert from a cadaver dog is only reasonable suspicion. The dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence. Federal and State Appellate Case Law on Cadaver Dogs:
http://policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver%20Dogs.pdf
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 07:44:42 PM
Again... Do you have the cite of his exact words.... I think he eas confused as he was about the alerts in Jersey... Didn't Paulo Reiis post here there was no preliminary report
What would Paulo Reis know?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:47:41 PM
if you listed to Brunt on the link you posted.....he was repeating what was in the local media...perhaps it was elements in teh PJ...who were leaking their theories and the press reporting them
Are you certain you've got that right? If it was in the paper we would surely be seeing the newspaper articles by now I would have thought.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:52:17 PM
I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports.
who do you think told amaral this...
More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
then we ahve this from TTOTL...
At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns' car and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment. We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it's definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.
so amaral is contradicting what the FSS say
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 07:58:37 PM
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.
- The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour - on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.
- the bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine's DNA profile.
IMO it is patently obvious it is amaral who is misunderstanding the results....the FSS results did not confirm the alerts
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 08:00:19 PM
to suggest he knows something of significance is opinion..........not fact
They are building a case against the McCanns, their focus will be on the evidence that fits that case. In another criminal case I studied, once you have the entire police file, you will find there is evidence that didn't fit the scenario the prosecution was promoting. It would, by law, be disclosed to the defence prior to the trial but how much time has the defence got to research all the non-fitting evidence? Would they disclose it in the first place? It has been common practice over the years to keep these difficult bits hidden from the defence team.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:05:42 PM
IMO Its clear from amarals own book their was no leaked preliminary report...the report was expalined to the PJ by Suart Prior.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Sunny on August 06, 2018, 08:10:50 PM
Its clear from amarals own book their was no leaked preliminary report...the report was expalined to the PJ by Suart Prior...but amaral would not listen and drew his own conclusions
According to an alleged quote from Goncalo Amaral's book he at least believed there were two reports
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
Amaral said he received such a report from the FSS. Refer to Sky's Martin Brunt report.
From 1.35
Davel: There is a report by Martin Brunt prior to this one where he tell us what the PJ have on the DNA analysis. All papers may have this on this day, but not the day before. Look for the first report on this matter.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:20:11 PM
Davel: There is a report by Martin Brunt prior to this one where he tell us what the PJ have on the DNA analysis. All papers may have this on this day, but not the day before. Look for the first report on this matter.
amaral describes the preliminary report in his book...theres no leaked report IMO...Ive quoted most of it above...and shown that IMO amaral just didnt understand it
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 08:26:11 PM
amaral describes the preliminary report in his book...theres no leaked report...Ive quoted most of it above...and shown that amaral just didnt understand it
I think it is Amaral bluffing the McCanns via the press that he has evidence against the McCanns. IMO there was never an interim report. IMO it was made up by the PJ as a ruse to try and get a confession from the McCanns.
It is not that Amaral didn't understand, but IMO he is controlling the situation in a very cunning manner.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:27:09 PM
Davel: There is a report by Martin Brunt prior to this one where he tell us what the PJ have on the DNA analysis. All papers may have this on this day, but not the day before. Look for the first report on this matter.
brunt does not say the Pare the source for anything...he simply mentions reports by local media...the PJ may have leaked its misundertanding of the FSS report...and thats what it is...confirmed by amarls statements in his book
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:28:15 PM
I think it is Amaral bluffing the McCanns via the press that he has evidence against the McCanns. IMO there was never an interim report. IMO it was made up by the PJ as a ruse to try and get a confession from the McCanns.
It is not that Amaral didn't understand, but IMO he is controlling the situation in a very cunning manner.
my feeling is that basically....he didnt have a clue...what you are suggesting is he he had no evidence and he was bluffing ...perhaps he should ahve realised he had no evdence because they were innocent
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 08:32:44 PM
my feeling is that basically....he didnt have a clue
Well Robert Murat describes what it was like to face the PJ during the interrogations. You can see it on the faces of the McCanns as they exit the arguido interviews.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
Well Robert Murat describes what it was like to face the PJ during the interrogations. You can see it on the faces of the McCanns as they exit the arguido interviews.
so what..he still didnt ave a clue..imo..no one wants a beating like cipriano
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 08:36:24 PM
so what..he still didnt ave a clue..imo..no one wants a beating like cipriano
No one wants a murdering mother like Cipriano either Davel, she was convicted. I have also read that she was convicted of lying about her "beating" by the way.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 08:41:09 PM
Davel: There is a report by Martin Brunt prior to this one where he tell us what the PJ have on the DNA analysis. All papers may have this on this day, but not the day before. Look for the first report on this matter.
This is the report from the day before. https://youtu.be/u3HQ74Rfdbk
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 08:47:49 PM
I see it a little different "I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports."
"I agree" suggests it is an opinion. "what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports"
Means that there is also a likelihood of the opposite, so it isn't a statement of fact other than the opinion which event is the more likely.
no its stating a fact...it is stating as fact tha it is likely that something happened..in my opinion is that it is unlikely...we are both stating opinion...we cant both be stating fact
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 09:00:46 PM
no its stating a fact...it is stating as fact tha it is likely that something happened..in my opinion is that it is unlikely...we are both stating opinion...we cant both be stating fact
Exactly you are both stating opinion, as you and I have determined. End of the matter.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 06, 2018, 09:45:15 PM
You are relying on speculation and your conclusions will be tainted by your belief in that speculation...Harrison tells us exactly what Grime told amaral in a meeting with the PJ..and its just what Grime and Harrison say in the files
Please provide a cite for Harrison tells....
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 06, 2018, 09:48:47 PM
After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 06, 2018, 11:40:16 PM
he dosnt give the source of his claim for a full match in the hire car
His argument is based on what the police are saying to him, To me it is obvious the source is the police. https://youtu.be/u3HQ74Rfdbk
The other YouTube Martin talks about the report issued "last night" so I propose on this basis the following video is the second one on the topic of the "interim report". https://youtu.be/m8KYHYzvvqI?t=91 Even though Martin doesn't use the words "interim report".
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 07, 2018, 12:41:34 AM
I agree, what the FSS and Grime told Amaral is likely different to their legal reports.
It will differ in that much more will have been discussed but was so sensitive that it would never be applied to paper. In any police investigation, the stuff that is committed to paper and the general public gets to read about is never the full story.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 07, 2018, 12:51:00 AM
Maybe it is never fully fact but could be a considered opinion, a real upper class opinion.
Gonçalo Amaral was the coordinator of the investigation from the very outset, everything went through him. He would have been aware of every snippet of information which came into the PJ from various sources. I have no doubt he carefully chose what to reveal and what not to reveal in his books.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 03:52:49 AM
Gonçalo Amaral was the coordinator of the investigation from the very outset, everything went through him. He would have been aware of every snippet of information which came into the PJ from various sources. I have no doubt he carefully chose what to reveal and what not to reveal in his books.
I tend to agree from what I've seen in the NZ case too.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 09:00:23 AM
"Bloody footprint revealed in Madeleine McCann case" http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/News-com-15-10-07.htm new bit:
"tests showed only "moderate" support - No.3 on the scale - to suggest it matched Madeleine McCann's DNA.
But what scientists believe is significant is that no traces of blood were found around the print.
"It is quite possible, therefore, that the blood had been picked up on the sole of the shoe from outside the apartment, from literally anywhere," a source close to the investigation said"
If the blood was picked up on the shoe I would say from experience that the source is reasonably close rather than what is reported "from literally anywhere". Anywhere reasonably close maybe?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 09:15:18 AM
Another interesting bit "odd that Kate makes a point of mentioning her trainers and about the dog biting her leg".
Does anyone know the timing of that incident?
Found a reference with the full text "Wed 2nd May 2007
"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" What sized shoe did Kate wear? https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3172-pink-running-shoes
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 09:30:04 AM
Looking for Kate's shoe size found this interesting report"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/is-madeleine-mccann-in-reservoir-513599 "The partial print, believed to match Kate's shoe size, was apparently on floor tiles outside the bedroom and allegedly contained blood which tests showed was a "moderate" match to Madeleine's.
Reports said the same shoe was rested on the car bumper in a manner "consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot".
But a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they had not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints"."
So here they are saying Kate did have shoes around the 5 or 6 mark.
But look what they say about the FSS! "a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they had not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints"." Is that confirming they had been working on the bloodied footwear print?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 07, 2018, 09:52:20 AM
Another interesting bit "odd that Kate makes a point of mentioning her trainers and about the dog biting her leg".
Does anyone know the timing of that incident?
Found a reference with the full text "Wed 2nd May 2007
"... I left a little while later again, to go for a run with Matt. I'd bought a new pair of running shoes a few days before we left for Portugal, and they were certainly getting a good initiation. They were pink, which I wasn't quite sure about - I wondered how seriously a runner in pink trainers could be taken - but after a few outings in the sand they weren't looking quite so glaring and girly. As we ran along the promenade, a small dog jumped out from under a bench and attacked my right calf" What sized shoe did Kate wear? https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3172-pink-running-shoes
I wonder why Kate cared whether she was taken seriously as a runner?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 12:27:12 PM
I wonder why Kate cared whether she was taken seriously as a runner?
Peer pressure would have a lot to do with it.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 12:52:25 PM
There have been a lot of people, some even here, who would rather think the bloodied print within the apartment was just an invention by the press. I disagree now for there are just too many references to the FSS, the lab that performed the DNA testing. I think it fits in with the concept of "woke and wandered" and "hurt on the way toward the secondary reception". Imagine the odds of that; Kate walking back to do her check stepping on a drop of Madeleine's blood and the blood forming a print with the toe facing toward the bedroom door! There are only 15 meters or so of shared path in that scenario, but there needs to be some shared path for the blood to get onto the shoes of those who entered the apartment. It is wrong to think the blood could have originated "anywhere", for the paths of Kate didn't take her everywhere, that night she walked to the Tapas at 8:30 and back at 10:00 when she walked back to the apartment. Plus the two trips for the alarm. So she walked/ran the short section from the gate to the reception 4 times that night and that is about the extent of the places she went (according to her) and no one claims otherwise.
If it wasn't Kate's shoe tread pattern was it Fiona's for she was a small lady too, and may have taken a size 6 shoe. 2 recorded trips for Fiona. Rachael does enter the apartment, and I'd say Jane took a larger shoe altogether. It is a shame the shoe tread patterns were not available for us to compare.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 07, 2018, 01:08:52 PM
There have been a lot of people, some even here, who would rather think the bloodied print within the apartment was just an invention by the press. I disagree now for there are just too many references to the FSS, the lab that performed the DNA testing. I think it fits in with the concept of "woke and wandered" and "hurt on the way toward the secondary reception". Imagine the odds of that; Kate walking back to do her check stepping on a drop of Madeleine's blood and the blood forming a print with the toe facing toward the bedroom door! There are only 15 meters or so of shared path in that scenario, but there needs to be some shared path for the blood to get onto the shoes of those who entered the apartment. It is wrong to think the blood could have originated "anywhere", for the paths of Kate didn't take her everywhere, that night she walked to the Tapas at 8:30 and back at 10:00 when she walked back to the apartment. Plus the two trips for the alarm. So she walked/ran the short section from the gate to the reception 4 times that night and that is about the extent of the places she went (according to her) and no one claims otherwise.
If it wasn't Kate's shoe tread pattern was it Fiona's for she was a small lady too, and may have taken a size 6 shoe. 2 recorded trips for Fiona. Rachael does enter the apartment, and I'd say Jane took a larger shoe altogether. It is a shame the shoe tread patterns were not available for us to compare.
This is nonsense, IMO, and it's shame you are dragging it across this forum. There is no such foot print in the PJ Files.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 01:33:30 PM
This is nonsense, IMO, and it's shame you are dragging it across this forum. There is no such foot print in the PJ Files.
What is shameful about it? Explain that please. I have been studying murder cases generally and it is common for the police to hold back some vital information. Maybe the bloodied footwear print was an example of that. But someone from the FSS seems to have slipped out some information about it. The PJ might have been completely unaware that this had happened.
I wonder if the papers still have a photo of the FSS lab data on the shoe print.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 07, 2018, 01:45:18 PM
What is shameful about it? Explain that please. I have been studying murder cases generally and it is common for the police to hold back some vital information. Maybe the bloodied footwear print was an example of that. But someone from the FSS seems to have slipped out some information about it. The PJ might have been completely unaware that this had happened.
I wonder if the papers still have a photo of the FSS lab data on the shoe print.
In my opinion it would be a criminal offence for police to withhold vital forensic evidence from an investigation.
Your starting point should surely be that the allegation of forensic material as reported in the press has some provenance. In my opinion provenance for this allegation would be in the forensic reports as recorded in the files. There is no reference to a bloody footprint found at any location in the forensic reports.
In my opinion you are following entirely the wrong tack here.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: kizzy on August 07, 2018, 02:23:52 PM
What is shameful about it? Explain that please. I have been studying murder cases generally and it is common for the police to hold back some vital information. Maybe the bloodied footwear print was an example of that. But someone from the FSS seems to have slipped out some information about it. The PJ might have been completely unaware that this had happened.
I wonder if the papers still have a photo of the FSS lab data on the shoe print.
According to GA he regrets sending forensics to birmingham he must have his reasons.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 07, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
According to GA he regrets sending forensics to birmingham he must have his reasons.
Had there been such a thing as a bloody footprint it would have been recorded by the Portuguese forensic team who carried out the scientific investigation of the apartment on the 4th May.
The FSS were not involved at this stage.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 07, 2018, 02:33:45 PM
What is shameful about it? Explain that please. I have been studying murder cases generally and it is common for the police to hold back some vital information. Maybe the bloodied footwear print was an example of that. But someone from the FSS seems to have slipped out some information about it. The PJ might have been completely unaware that this had happened.
I wonder if the papers still have a photo of the FSS lab data on the shoe print.
See Brietta's response.
The FSS was not involved this early on in the investigation.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 07, 2018, 03:03:07 PM
The FSS was not involved this early on in the investigation.
They only got involved following the visit of Grime and his dogs. No footprints were found then because the apartment had been cleaned and let out in between times.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 07, 2018, 05:16:05 PM
In my opinion it would be a criminal offence for police to withhold vital forensic evidence from an investigation.
Your starting point should surely be that the allegation of forensic material as reported in the press has some provenance. In my opinion provenance for this allegation would be in the forensic reports as recorded in the files. There is no reference to a bloody footprint found at any location in the forensic reports.
In my opinion you are following entirely the wrong tack here.
I have already covered that. I said the PJ would use this information at the right time. For all we know the lady in purple they were looking for 2 years ago has footwear size 5 - 6. Where is the lady in purple in the released file? Yet they had statements that Jennifer Murat had seen her.
It appears to be actual as I have pointed out. What makes you believe that the sightings of the FSS report reported in the papers was not real?
Beliefs are fickle things in general.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 06:21:52 PM
Had there been such a thing as a bloody footprint it would have been recorded by the Portuguese forensic team who carried out the scientific investigation of the apartment on the 4th May.
The FSS were not involved at this stage.
They could have had samples in duplicate held for later testing.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 06:26:20 PM
I take everything Kate McCann has said very seriously.
Seriously in what sense? Well what did you think of the report of a dog attack to her lower right leg. Wasn't the footwear print from the right foot? (I'll have to recheck that).
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 06:38:25 PM
Yes. Fantasising about speculation where there is no evidence to support it brings the forum into disrepute.
I object to that. Can you prove it is a fantasy about speculation? I think you need to come up with evidence. The GMB site has not rejected the idea of the bloodied footwear mark. Most were singing the praises of Pamalam and Nigel for their work in this forum.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 07, 2018, 06:49:57 PM
I object to that. Can you prove it is a fantasy about speculation? I think you need to come up with evidence. The GMB site has not rejected the idea of the bloodied footwear mark. Most were singing the praises of Pamalam and Nigel for their work in this forum.
Cite - this thread.
Evidence - NO FOOTPRINT IN THE PJ fILES. &^^&*
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 07, 2018, 07:01:58 PM
I object to that. Can you prove it is a fantasy about speculation? I think you need to come up with evidence. The GMB site has not rejected the idea of the bloodied footwear mark. Most were singing the praises of Pamalam and Nigel for their work in this forum.
The media stories which we are able to access weren't included for any particular reason as far as I know. They are there because they're about Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 07, 2018, 07:05:29 PM
I have already covered that. I said the PJ would use this information at the right time. For all we know the lady in purple they were looking for 2 years ago has footwear size 5 - 6. Where is the lady in purple in the released file? Yet they had statements that Jennifer Murat had seen her.
It appears to be actual as I have pointed out. What makes you believe that the sightings of the FSS report reported in the papers was not real?
Beliefs are fickle things in general.
Robitty, it isn't a pick n mix regarding police deciding which evidence is recorded and which evidence is held back to be used at a later date. In a criminal investigation every individual piece of evidence gathered has to be considered in relation to all the rest in order to make up the bigger picture. On its own one item of evidence might be irrelevant until considered in relation to all the evidence gathered. Remembering that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts ... it is necessary that every piece of evidence has to be slotted into place.
Quite often we hear of cold case reviews turning up information which has been missed ~ as in Madeleine's case ~ and that can only happen if the information is there to be found and not floating around in some policeman's head.
There have been screeds written about the perfidy of the press at the time and the ridiculous unfounded stories they printed of which this is but one. For this bloody footprint not to have been included in the chain of the evidence harvested and processed by the Portuguese scientific services, would involve the collusion of many honest people in the crime of concealing evidence. It is inconceivable that they did that.
This is not a smoking gun or an Ace up anyone's sleeve ... it just did not happen.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 07:08:01 PM
Seriously in what sense? Well what did you think of the report of a dog attack to her lower right leg. Wasn't the footwear print from the right foot? (I'll have to recheck that).
The incident happened after Madeleine's disappearance so even if the dog bite had resulted in a bad bite the resultant blood would have had no significance other than that Kate had been bitten.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 07, 2018, 07:15:20 PM
I don't think it was found at all, Robitty, just a myth. If there had been such evidence the Portuguese crime scene specialists would have logged it and it would have been photographed and that would have been recorded in the files.
It wasn't.
I believe out of the same stable there was something about a bloody footprint on the Renault bumper.
Well it would hardly be the McCanns saying they left footwear marks on the bumper consistent with them carrying a body into the boot!
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 07, 2018, 07:20:20 PM
Footprints were mentioned as being there but there was too much contamination for meaningful analysis. It is probably the origin of the story ... the dragon's blood used by the scientific team was red.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 07:22:16 PM
Whoever wrote that about the bumper can't have realised the Renault wasn't hired till at least 20 days after the event. When I think about it, blood on a foot print have could come from standing on a mouse. Therefore blood on a bumper is only really important if it was human blood and then human blood from a female, and even more damning if it was Madeleine's blood.
It was supposedly only a shoe print on the bumper not a bloodied shoe print, and the opposite foot too (one was right and the other was the left foot).
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 07, 2018, 07:23:32 PM
Pamalam provides a wonderful database, packed with reports and images that we need and use .... Well done Pamalam .... and I thank her for that .
However, from comments on the pages of her website, she presents comments and articles that, IMO, are biased against The Mccanns.
I believe that she is firmly against The Mccanns. For this reason, apart from facts, I am cautious about what she says on her webpages.
If she were to remove these IMO adverse comments, I would gladly make a decent contribution to help keep her webpage running.
The long and short of this post is .... Can you trust a biased website to give unbiased information? I personally find it difficult.
Before the abnormal, bullying, CITES demands come up, I am not providing any cites. Go and look and judge for yourselves.
From what was written on the page quoted in the OP I'd say she was a firm believer in Madeleine being abducted. She might blame the McCann's parenting style for allowing that to happen.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 07, 2018, 07:50:05 PM
The FSS were not involved in the Portuguese investigation at that time ... but in common with their Portuguese counterparts their work was not for public distribution it was information for prosecutors and the police to be considered as probable evidence in a criminal trial.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 01:31:04 AM
The FSS were not involved in the Portuguese investigation at that time ... but in common with their Portuguese counterparts their work was not for public distribution it was information for prosecutors and the police to be considered as probable evidence in a criminal trial.
What I meant was what if the person with the information was in England at the time, would they still be bound by the Portuguese laws?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 02:22:53 AM
I see the timing of the leak really significant, it being only a couple of weeks * after the McCanns fled back to the UK.
IMO the PJ wanted to show extra evidence which they must have believed showed they were on the "right track".
Would a bloodied shoe print found in the McCann's apartment make you think the PJ were on the right track?
I think there could still be other explanations for that if it was true.
* The article in the Standard was dated "Saturday 13 October 2007 22:37" or just over 5 weeks after the McCann arguido interviews.
There's no doubt that the media has consistently given out incorrect information about this case. The 'bloody footprint' story, like the 'woman in purple' story has come and gone. Your very first post linked to an article by the News of the World dated 11th May 2008 mentions it and the supposed print recovered from the boot of the car;
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.
Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.
There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
So the story certainly wasn't new in October 2007.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2018, 11:24:37 AM
The Mirror came up with a different unsubstantiated story in October 2007;
Is Madeleine McCann in reservoir? Police will search an isolated reservoir where they believe Madeleine McCann's body could have been disposed of.
On the topic of the thread they said;
Friends of the McCanns blasted reports that police had found a "bloody footprint" in their holiday apartment which apparently matched another on the bumper of their hire car.
The partial print, believed to match Kate's shoe size, was apparently on floor tiles outside the bedroom and allegedly contained blood which tests showed was a "moderate" match to Madeleine's.
Reports said the same shoe was rested on the car bumper in a manner "consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot".
But a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they had not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints". https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/is-madeleine-mccann-in-reservoir-513599
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 12:34:05 PM
There's no doubt that the media has consistently given out incorrect information about this case. The 'bloody footprint' story, like the 'woman in purple' story has come and gone. Your very first post linked to an article by the News of the World dated 11th May 2008 mentions it and the supposed print recovered from the boot of the car;
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.
Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.
There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
So the story certainly wasn't new in October 2007.
OK the story wasn't new to the PJ, who had been sitting on this information for operational purposes. That is certain if the story is true.
So if the story is old, are you saying it wasn't a story being made up by the press?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2018, 12:46:06 PM
The Mirror came up with a different unsubstantiated story in October 2007;
Is Madeleine McCann in reservoir? Police will search an isolated reservoir where they believe Madeleine McCann's body could have been disposed of.
On the topic of the thread they said;
Friends of the McCanns blasted reports that police had found a "bloody footprint" in their holiday apartment which apparently matched another on the bumper of their hire car.
The partial print, believed to match Kate's shoe size, was apparently on floor tiles outside the bedroom and allegedly contained blood which tests showed was a "moderate" match to Madeleine's.
Reports said the same shoe was rested on the car bumper in a manner "consistent with someone lifting a body in or out of the boot".
But a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they had not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints". https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/is-madeleine-mccann-in-reservoir-513599
Note in the later article (15th Oct 2007) the FSS doesn't deny doing the DNA testing, no, they're just not involved in the comparison of one shoe print with the other.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 12:55:47 PM
Your statement of opinion seems to be lacking an acknowledgement that it has no factual basis.
I've no idea where the story originated, but I do know that there's no evidence that any interesting footprints were found in 5A.
That statement is conditional on the shoe print in the apartment being a true story. I'm not saying it is true or not true, but I must admit you saying it was an old story made me think you are coming around to believing it is a true story. I see a consistency to all the reports that only happen if it was a fact. Who in 2007 says it isn't true?
"Friends of the McCanns blasted reports that police had found a "bloody footprint" in their holiday apartment which apparently matched another on the bumper of their hire car."
See they are only denying that the shoe print in the apartment matched one on the bumper. Who did the matching? The FSS deny matching the two.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 12:58:48 PM
There's no doubt that the media has consistently given out incorrect information about this case. The 'bloody footprint' story, like the 'woman in purple' story has come and gone. Your very first post linked to an article by the News of the World dated 11th May 2008 mentions it and the supposed print recovered from the boot of the car;
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.
Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.
There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
So the story certainly wasn't new in October 2007.
G-unit: If it wasn't new in October 2007 when did it originate then?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: jassi on August 08, 2018, 12:59:57 PM
That statement is conditional on the shoe print in the apartment being a true story. I'm not saying it is true or not true, but I must admit you saying it was an old story made me think you are coming around to believing it is a true story. I see a consistency to all the reports that only happen if it was a fact. Who in 2007 says it isn't true?
"Friends of the McCanns blasted reports that police had found a "bloody footprint" in their holiday apartment which apparently matched another on the bumper of their hire car."
See they are only denying that the shoe print in the apartment matched one on the bumper. Who did the matching? The FSS deny matching the two.
[/b]
I presume you mean FSS UK. Portugal had its own forensic service.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 01:02:25 PM
I presume you mean FSS UK. Portugal had its own forensic service.
As per the article quoted by G-unit: "But a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they had not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints"."
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 01:26:19 PM
As per the article quoted by G-unit: "But a source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which is helping Portuguese police, said they ha in the opinion of most membersd not even tested the bumper of the car - which is in Portugal - "so they have not had anything to match with any other prints"."
There was no footprint recorded by the forensic people, Therefore this is is a false story in the opinion of most members.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 01:39:05 PM
There's no doubt that the media has consistently given out incorrect information about this case. The 'bloody footprint' story, like the 'woman in purple' story has come and gone. Your very first post linked to an article by the News of the World dated 11th May 2008 mentions it and the supposed print recovered from the boot of the car;
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.
Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.
There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
So the story certainly wasn't new in October 2007.
That News of the World article is months after the story of the bloody foot print first broke "Maddie World Exclusive: First pictures and video in flat News of the World
How fiend could have kept out of sight
By Keith Gladdis & Dominic Herbert Sunday, May 11, 2008"
Are the dates I see in the OP link.
You have not shown me any evidence that it wasn't new in October 2007.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 01:45:41 PM
That News of the World article is months after the story of the bloody foot print first broke "Maddie World Exclusive: First pictures and video in flat News of the World
How fiend could have kept out of sight
By Keith Gladdis & Dominic Herbert Sunday, May 11, 2008"
Are the dates I see in the OP link.
You have not shown me any evidence that it wasn't new in October 2007.
Oh yes, sorry, I got my dates mixed up.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 02:10:58 PM
So do you have any inkling that the story was well known before the 13th Oct 2007?
I assume if the story was withheld for operational purposes the PJ knew but were keeping it under wraps. The McCann response on the 15th sounds like they were familiar with the shoe prints being found, but denied that they had been compared to each other.
I can see no reason why Kate's shoe print couldn't be found on the bumper of their hire car. There is no crime in that.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 08, 2018, 02:27:11 PM
So do you have any inkling that the story was well known before the 13th Oct 2007?
I assume if the story was withheld for operational purposes the PJ knew but were keeping it under wraps. The McCann response on the 15th sounds like they were familiar with the shoe prints being found, but denied that they had been compared to each other.
I can see no reason why Kate's shoe print couldn't be found on the bumper of their hire car. There is no crime in that.
Is there any evidence that the shoeprint story was true, smoke and fire and all that?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 02:30:11 PM
Is there any evidence that the shoeprint story was true, smoke and fire and all that?
The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham. That is real evidence to me. No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.
I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html "A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2018, 03:18:46 PM
The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham. That is real evidence to me. No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.
I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html "A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?
The Mail on Sunday appears to be the source of the story, but whatever they wrote seems to no longer be available.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: John on August 08, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham. That is real evidence to me. No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.
I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html "A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?
It's the Sunday version of the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 08, 2018, 05:17:27 PM
- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED - On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2315 The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
Photos 26 and 27: Displays of the floor area of the bedroom from where the minor disappeared from where were collected hairs referenced as trace evidence #1.
- CONCLUSIONS - [The indented paragraphs are repeats of the detailed collections and recoveries described in the body of the report.] The trace evidence described before and referenced as #1 to #7 were delivered to the Lisbon Office of the National Institute of Legal Medicine, under cover of delivery note #156/2007-CR/L a copy of which is attached, for further laboratory examination.
Seriously ... I really do not think that this Portuguese forensic team overlooked any fresh blood traces at this location. I think there was none there to be found.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 08, 2018, 10:27:56 PM
- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED - On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2315 The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
Photos 26 and 27: Displays of the floor area of the bedroom from where the minor disappeared from where were collected hairs referenced as trace evidence #1.
- CONCLUSIONS - [The indented paragraphs are repeats of the detailed collections and recoveries described in the body of the report.] The trace evidence described before and referenced as #1 to #7 were delivered to the Lisbon Office of the National Institute of Legal Medicine, under cover of delivery note #156/2007-CR/L a copy of which is attached, for further laboratory examination.
Seriously ... I really do not think that this Portuguese forensic team overlooked any fresh blood traces at this location. I think there was none there to be found.
OK but this sentence allows for other findings. "There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found"
Like do they tell us the total number of samples submitted?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2018, 01:18:09 AM
Remember this print did not require any special techniques to be seen. They say it was visible to the naked eye.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2018, 01:43:14 AM
Copy of email to the Evening Standard
Dear Mark Wilkinson
My inquiry relates to the news article found at this link https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html
I am Robert de Boer a researcher into the McCann case, and also a moderator on the UK Justice Forum.
I started a thread on the forum on the 5th of August regarding "the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."
It took me to the above linked article that appeared in the Standard on the 13th Oct 2007.
In that article it states: " A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday. "
Do you have any confirmation of the truthfulness of that statement? Did the reporter (name unknown) actually confirm the existence of the forensic report?
If it was possible could you email a copy of that report to me please?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2018, 02:00:58 AM
Remember this print did not require any special techniques to be seen. They say it was visible to the naked eye.
If it had been there ... the forensic team would have photographed it and taken samples from it for analysis. They checked for the presence of blood ... they would not have ignored something as obvious as a bloody footprint.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2018, 02:28:32 AM
If it had been there ... the forensic team would have photographed it and taken samples from it for analysis. They checked for the presence of blood ... they would not have ignored something as obvious as a bloody footprint.
I'm thinking they didn't ignore it, but kept it secret for investigation purposes and sent it to the FSS but it came back with a less than satisfactory DNA result (according to the newspaper reports) for the purposes of charging anyone.
"A swab for blood from this mark has been examined but it proved inconclusive.'
This is the first time that forensic evidence relating to the case has been presented in such detail.
Sources have told this newspaper that the sample taken from the apartment was not of good quality. Other partial prints were underneath it and it had been walked over countless times."
So it sounds like a mixed DNA result but apparently some of the alleles did match Madeleine's.
This bit also is clear "Blood in the footprint at the apartment was tested for DNA. Results are rated on an eight-point scale: no scientific evidence, limited, moderate, moderately strong, strong, very strong, extremely strong and conclusive.
Scientists found there was only 'moderate' support, number 3 on the scale, to suggest it matched Madeleine's DNA."
It gave moderate support it was Madeleine's blood. I suppose that wasn't enough evidence, but the sole pattern of the shoe would still hold evidence. A shoe size 5 or 6 with a definite sole pattern. I would say all the shoes the McCann's owned would have been looked at. So I'm tending to think it was on someone else's footwear. but they too had been in the apartment.
It has probably got no connection to the person committing a crime, but shows a transference of the blood from somewhere outside to inside the apartment.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: kizzy on August 09, 2018, 10:11:08 AM
I can think of a few reasons that I'm not willing to write down. Why do you think he felt that way?
Imo he thinks there is more to the results than what we are told.
The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family. Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile. As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed. Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody
Imo he thinks there is more to the results than what we are told.
The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family. Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile. As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed. Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody
The FSS had nothing to do with the initial forensic examination of the apartment and therefore has no locus on this thread ... please bear that in mind when posting what is basically off topic material. Thank you
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: kizzy on August 09, 2018, 11:34:06 AM
The FSS had nothing to do with the initial forensic examination of the apartment and therefore has no locus on this thread ... please bear that in mind when posting what is basically off topic material. Thank you
Actually - i was answering a mods question to me.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: kizzy on August 09, 2018, 12:14:14 PM
Robitty, it isn't a pick n mix regarding police deciding which evidence is recorded and which evidence is held back to be used at a later date. In a criminal investigation every individual piece of evidence gathered has to be considered in relation to all the rest in order to make up the bigger picture. On its own one item of evidence might be irrelevant until considered in relation to all the evidence gathered. Remembering that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts ... it is necessary that every piece of evidence has to be slotted into place.
Quite often we hear of cold case reviews turning up information which has been missed ~ as in Madeleine's case ~ and that can only happen if the information is there to be found and not floating around in some policeman's head.
There have been screeds written about the perfidy of the press at the time and the ridiculous unfounded stories they printed of which this is but one. For this bloody footprint not to have been included in the chain of the evidence harvested and processed by the Portuguese scientific services, would involve the collusion of many honest people in the crime of concealing evidence. It is inconceivable that they did that.
This is not a smoking gun or an Ace up anyone's sleeve ... it just did not happen.
This is not a smoking gun or an Ace up anyone's sleeve ... it just did not happen.
You don't know that B - seems GA has not disclosed all he knows .
Recently you said that there is much you know and have not written. Is there something that has been purposely left out?
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 09, 2018, 12:36:00 PM
Brietta - are you saying the PJ would never hold some evidence as confidential kept for special purposes ? In many of the cases I have heard that certain information is not divulged. This information when mentioned by the perpetrator becomes a matter of identification.
If the footwear print is real it is possible the PJ know the brand of shoe that it comes from. If they see a photo of that type of shoe on a holiday snap from that time it could point to the perpetrator. John might be able to explain how this works better than I can.
Title: Re: Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?
Post by: Brietta on August 09, 2018, 01:41:52 PM