Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.

[Robittybob1]

Interesting to note that in this report (reposted here to try and discredit the work of victim recovery and crime scene dogs) what we actually have is a correct alert to cadaver odour. In the Shannon Matthews case the alert was verified. It was discovered the "scent of death" was due to the corpse of the previous owner on furniture that was sold on the second hand market. In other words the dogs were doing exactly what they are trained to do - and doing it with verifiable accuracy.

It's also factually incorrect to state "nothing more was found" in the Madeleine McCann case. Human cellular material was found in both the hire car and in apartment 5A. This material was then sent to the FSS laboratory in the UK for forensic investigation. Low copy DNA results were "inconclusive" in terms of proving these human samples belonged to Madeleine McCann.

Welcome to the forum.

You definitely hit the forum running.  You seen right up there in the detail.  Interesting.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Welcome to the forum.

You definitely hit the forum running.  You seen right up there in the detail.  Interesting.

Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.

There is much nonsense and chaff from both sides but I believe there are certain verifiable facts that we need to remember. So for instance it seems clear to me that the statement "nothing more was found" [following dog alerts in the McCann case] can be easily demolished if you consider the evidence. Following the dog alerts traces of human cellular material were found and tested in the UK. In terms of proving a link to Madeleine McCann we know that the FSS reported that the results were "too complex for meaningful interpretation".

Science doesn't stand still though - and it has been reported that methods are now available to allow for a more conclusive interpretation of the results. I'm sure everyone concerned with this case will be eager for a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis of human cellular material collected from areas where the dogs alerted.

[misty]

Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.

There is much nonsense and chaff from both sides but I believe there are certain verifiable facts that we need to remember. So for instance it seems clear to me that the statement "nothing more was found" [following dog alerts in the McCann case] can be easily demolished if you consider the evidence. Following the dog alerts traces of human cellular material were found and tested in the UK. In terms of proving a link to Madeleine McCann we know that the FSS reported that the results were "too complex for meaningful interpretation".

Science doesn't stand still though - and it has been reported that methods are now available to allow for a more conclusive interpretation of the results. I'm sure everyone concerned with this case will be eager for a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis of human cellular material collected from areas where the dogs alerted.

Hi Billy Whizz FC & welcome.
What is your basis for thinking that the mixed samples harvested from the car boot for forensics were solely representative of Keela's alert, given that the FSS could not identify the cellular material as blood?

[Robittybob1]

Thank you and hello.... The case is intriguing. I've read a great deal around aspects that I find particularly interesting. I was initially drawn to this case because I could not understand why Clarence Mitchell continually emphasised the importance of Jane Tanner's sighting but for months ignored the Smith family sighting.

... snip ...

I had my first clue to the Smith sighting and I'm quite excited to think they may have "Smithman" on video.
I'm going to start a new thread on it so I can keep the information together.

[Mr Gray]

No evidential reliability... Grimes own words.
[too many ellipses hence makes the post nonsensical] and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.

[G-Unit]

No evidential reliability... Grimes own words.
In Jersey there were eleven alerts... A coconut.. Milk teeth which Grime has now onfirmed the dog would not have alerted to... And some bone fragments.. Possibly human


That's a pretty poor result and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.

It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.

[Vertigo Swirl]

It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.

Heaven help us if justice is ever to be widely served based on the bark of a dog.

[G-Unit]

Heaven help us if justice is ever to be widely served based on the bark of a dog.

That's a rather misleading comment as the two cases quoted didn't convict anyone based solely on the bark of a dog.

[Vertigo Swirl]

That's a rather misleading comment as the two cases quoted didn't convict anyone based solely on the bark of a dog.

What was the key piece of evidence against D'Andre Lane? 

[Mr Gray]

It's quite obvious that a cadaber dog's alerts have 'no evidential reliability' on their own. As part of a collection of evidence, however, they can be very useful. They were used successfully in the D'Andre Lane case in Mitchigan and the David Gllroy case in Scotland. In my opinion it's only a matter of time until they are used more widely.

In the Jersey case they were found to be a diversion rather than a help... I think the same is, true in the McCann case... It's clear to me the alerts took the police in totally the wrong direction.
In the Gilroy case I read the appeal court criticised the alert evidence.

Far from being accepted I see them being totally discredited if a proper defence was mounted against them.

You have constantly opposed the idea of scientific  validation which is exactly what grime is now working on so you were, wrong there and I was right

They still have no scientific validation.. IMO Grime doesn't understand what it entails..

He might be an expert in dogs but I'm sure I have s much better understanding of scientific method.

[pathfinder73]

I do not think Eddie ever worked in America ... but I believe Martin Grime and Morse worked there ... on how many cases, I've no idea.

What nonsense!

"The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.

"Yes, hopefully we will find Theresa Parker. Yes, we will hopefully find evidence," Grime said at an afternoon news conference with Sheriff Steve Wilson in the Walker County Seat of Lafayette on Thursday afternoon."
Specialized K-9 to Aid in Ga. Search todaysthv.com

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Hi Billy Whizz FC & welcome.
What is your basis for thinking that the mixed samples harvested from the car boot for forensics were solely representative of Keela's alert, given that the FSS could not identify the cellular material as blood?

Hi Misty. It is feasible that the forensic scientists missed blood and by chance sampled some other human cellular material. It is also possible that this cellular material was from Madeleine McCann as well as at least two other people. The FSS couldn’t then provide a conclusive interpretation of the results but as I stated science moves forward and we now have scientists in the USA claiming that they would be able to offer a conclusive interpretation of the DNA analysis.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

No evidential reliability... Grimes own words.
In Jersey there were eleven alerts... A coconut.. Milk teeth which Grime has now onfirmed the dog would not have alerted to... And some bone fragments.. Possibly human


That's a pretty poor result and to me indicates the alerts themselves are unreliable.

What Grimes means is that the dog alerting is not reliable stand alone evidence to prove a crime. The dogs can indicate to areas where such evidence may be found. The FBI, for example, would never use such techniques if they had no value in the search for evidence of human remains. What we actually can be sure of is that the dogs are in fact highly successful in finding areas where human blood and cellular material can be collected for analysis. I hope that the samples tested in the McCann case could one day lead to a conclusive interpretation.

[Robittybob1]

Heaven help us if justice is ever to be widely served based on the bark of a dog.

It will never be on a dog's bark alone IMO.  Maybe as part of a chain of evidence it will be included.

[Mr Gray]

What Grimes means is that the dog alerting is not reliable stand alone evidence to prove a crime. The dogs can indicate to areas where such evidence may be found. The FBI, for example, would never use such techniques if they had no value in the search for evidence of human remains. What we actually can be sure of is that the dogs are in fact highly successful in finding areas where human blood and cellular material can be collected for analysis. I hope that the samples tested in the McCann case could one day lead to a conclusive interpretation.

So what did they find in Jersey and what did they find in PDL