Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on August 03, 2015, 10:23:33 PM
Title: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 03, 2015, 10:23:33 PM
Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach could start at the lane/Block 4 car park to outside perimeter of the wasteland (probably hidden in bushes). Later move - ran alone to hiding place and then seen by the Smiths. Smithman knew the dark deserted rocky beach would be a good hiding place so this whole rocky area needs to be checked by cadaver dogs.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/156wqps.jpg)
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 11:40:03 PM
@pathfinder so through garden gate, right, right into alley, right into other alley between 5 and 4, left up steps into 4 carpark, out main entrance of 4 carpark, left, cross over Rua 1 Maio into Rua Escola. What time does this slot in the timeline in your theory relative to chat? Wouldn't the front door make more sense?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 12:15:22 AM
@pathfinder so through garden gate, right, right into alley, right into other alley between 5 and 4, left up steps into 4 carpark, out main entrance of 4 carpark, left, cross over Rua 1 Maio into Rua Escola. What time does this slot in the timeline in your theory relative to chat? Wouldn't the front door make more sense?
The lane and Block 4 car park is a risk but it's a safer darker route than being on the lit up road side and being seen by eye witnesses in cars or crechemen 8(0(* Patio side is good to see if coast is clear. I think before the chat.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2015, 12:57:23 AM
Lane/Block 4 car park to outside perimeter of the wasteland (probably hidden in bushes). Later move - ran alone to hiding place and then seen by the Smiths. Smithman knew the dark deserted rocky beach would be a good hiding place so this whole rocky area needs to be checked by cadaver dogs.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/156wqps.jpg)
Where do you think this rocky beach is PFinder?
To the west or the east of the church?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 04, 2015, 01:08:08 AM
The lane and Block 4 car park is a risk but it's a safer darker route than being on the lit up road side and being seen by eye witnesses in cars or crechemen 8(0(* Patio side is good to see if coast is clear. I think before the chat.
In your theory wouldn't it be safer and quicker to peek out patio side and if coast clear go out front door? Then through 5 carpark and 4 carpark. Leaving only a very short section along road.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 11:13:43 AM
In your theory wouldn't it be safer and quicker to peek out patio side and if coast clear go out front door? Then through 5 carpark and 4 carpark. Leaving only a very short section along road.
The lane was a darker and less used route at night. Owners enter and leave their apartment on the front side so it's a riskier exit and you follow the evidence.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 11:18:49 AM
The image above is upside down to a traditional map.
Search areas 2 and 3 are to the east of the church
Firstly, I would comment that I rather think that the terrain to the rear of search area 3 and the church is very steep, but I am not sure. Perhap Shining could confirm?
As one walks left (which is actually east) the ground drops away and the slopes become less difficult .... but look at the rough terrain carrying a child !
So on the slope basis alone, I am inclined to reject the area near to the church and the Fortezela and only consider the unlikely rough area behind search area 2.
Secondly look at the distances to walk by the round-about Rua D'Escola (Smiths ) route. It must be half as far again to the only area that could be clambered over [possibly but unlikely] by a man carrying a child. There are alleyways that would take a man in a much more hidden way down to this area. All the alleyways around there are very quiet and dark
Thirdly, To reach either area behind either of [south of] the two search areas, Smithman would have had to pass by various bars and restaurants and the ATM machine. He would have had to walk right thru the middle of town. I dont think that Smithman would have done that.
If the man were going to that rocky foreshore, I think he would have taken the shortest and least overlooked route ..... and that would not have taken him by The Smiths. He wouldn't have gone thru town.
Also if you were right, he was short of time, therefore as distance = time, he would have taken the far shorter route
No way, imo, would he have gone the longer route. Soz, PFinder.
With thanks to Shining in previous posts for outlining all the occupied places that he would have had to go past if he took the Smithman route to those eastern shores. Sorry, I cant remember them all, but they were numerous.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 05:58:26 PM
You would use the routes you know. The steps lead you to the bars. You walk past that old derelict house opposite the church and straight to the rocks. Chaplins in behind the church a fair distance from the road and you're hidden behind hedge/bushes.
The image above is upside down to a traditional map.
Search areas 2 and 3 are to the east of the church
Firstly, I would comment that I rather think that the terrain to the rear of search area 3 and the church is very steep, but I am not sure. Perhap Shining could confirm?
As one walks left (which is actually east) the ground drops away and the slopes become less difficult .... but look at the rough terrain carrying a child !
So on the slope basis alone, I am inclined to reject the area near to the church and the Fortezela and only consider the unlikely rough area behind search area 2.
Secondly look at the distances to walk by the round-about Rua D'Escola (Smiths ) route. It must be half as far again to the only area that could be clambered over [possibly but unlikely] by a man carrying a child. There are alleyways that would take a man in a much more hidden way down to this area. All the alleyways around there are very quiet and dark
Thirdly, To reach either area behind either of [south of] the two search areas, Smithman would have had to pass by various bars and restaurants and the ATM machine. He would have had to walk right thru the middle of town. I dont think that Smithman would have done that.
If the man were going to that rocky foreshore, I think he would have taken the shortest and least overlooked route ..... and that would not have taken him by The Smiths. He wouldn't have gone thru town.
Also if you were right, he was short of time, therefore as distance = time, he would have taken the far shorter route
No way, imo, would he have gone the longer route. Soz, PFinder.
With thanks to Shining in previous posts for outlining all the occupied places that he would have had to go past if he took the Smithman route to those eastern shores. Sorry, I cant remember them all, but they were numerous.
The rocks to the immediate south of the church are not steep. They are gently sloping. To the south (west) of the Fortaleza, there is a 'cliff'. OK, abrupt drop that no-one would climb up or down.
To the east of the church, the rocks DO become steep. However, the photo posted earlier in the thread is definitely south of the church and probably east of the church.
My better half has just left me for 3 weeks in Inglaterra with family. This is a good time to get your photo requests in, folks.
I feel a stroll coming on.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2015, 06:55:46 PM
The rocks to the immediate south of the church are not steep. They are gently sloping. To the south (west) of the Fortaleza, there is a 'cliff'. OK, abrupt drop that no-one would climb up or down.
To the east of the church, the rocks DO become steep. However, the photo posted earlier in the thread is definitely south of the church and probably east of the church.
My better half has just left me for 3 weeks in Inglaterra with family. This is a good time to get your photo requests in, folks.
I feel a stroll coming on.
Thankyou for you help Shining. The photo posted earlier is definitely quite well east of the church. You can see the flags and the ?shelters which show on G Earth.
Very rough ground to be carrying a child in the dark.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 07:22:21 PM
The rocks to the immediate south of the church are not steep. They are gently sloping. To the south (west) of the Fortaleza, there is a 'cliff'. OK, abrupt drop that no-one would climb up or down.
To the east of the church, the rocks DO become steep. However, the photo posted earlier in the thread is definitely south of the church and probably east of the church.
My better half has just left me for 3 weeks in Inglaterra with family. This is a good time to get your photo requests in, folks.
I feel a stroll coming on.
That whole rocky area please and sewer openings. Any voids and spaces underneath rocks are good hiding places. Can't see from GE so close-up photos please. Also if possible - bushes around the outside perimeter of the wasteland. Thanks.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 07:25:15 PM
That whole rocky area please and sewer openings. Any voids and spaces underneath rocks are good hiding places. Can't see from GE so close-up photos please. Also if possible - bushes around the outside perimeter of the wasteland. Thanks.
Have you been on that beach?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 07:26:22 PM
Then how do you know about all these holes suitable for hiding bodies? IMO that photo makes it look like a not very good place for hiding bodies, but if someone who has actually been there tells me that it is, then fair enough.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 07:31:08 PM
Then how do you know about all these holes suitable for hiding bodies? IMO that photo makes it look like a not very good place for hiding bodies, but if someone who has actually been there tells me that it is, then fair enough.
You gotta be kidding me. Can't hide a 3 year old here! Do you see the person in this photo?
Low tide 10pm 3 May
(http://i61.tinypic.com/156wqps.jpg)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 07:33:00 PM
Slippery rocks easy to walk over in the dark on a blustery evening, carrying a child, do you think?
I dont think so.
And if it was that easy, surely everyone would have been searching there during the night?
Or at least early the next morning.
Now did Smithman carry some lead weights or brick-ends as well? ... cos the tide was just coming in.
I have walked along the promenade once, but it was in 2010 and I cannot claim to be able to remember it in detail.
Amazing what you can do when your ass is on the line and to not get locked up. Getting over rocks is nothing. The beach is an obvious hiding place in the dark and you don't need a shovel. Maybe Shining can offer his opinion on the area for hiding once he's had a closer look?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 04, 2015, 08:51:48 PM
Just a little way up from the Smithman sighting. I think it was Alice who was waiting for Godot. I think Godot's was closed for refurb in May 2007, but here is Godot's 4 Aug 2015 style.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 10:13:33 PM
Amazing what you can do when your ass is on the line and to not get locked up. Getting over rocks is nothing. The beach is an obvious hiding place in the dark and you don't need a shovel. Maybe Shining can offer his opinion on the area for hiding once he's had a closer look?
Isn't that beach completely overlooked by apartments?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 04, 2015, 10:31:06 PM
Smithman sighting. The Dolphin is the blue and white thingy at the bottom right. Fernando's is on the gap down the bottom to the left.
All pics 04 Aug 2015.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 04, 2015, 10:47:25 PM
Thanks Anna. About 200 metres away from the Smithman sighting so not far away.
The sight from behind the seating area. Using the pointer on the right, you can rotate the scene. It does look somewhat overlooked by buildings. I assume those buildings were there, then.
We appear to be slipping off topic, so time to get back to it, please.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 05, 2015, 01:52:00 AM
TO THE BEACH! TO THE BEACH!
OK, how about TO THE ROCKS!
Photos 4 Aug 2015, roughly 7pm. I tried doing one that matches up with the photo earlier in the thread. What my eyeball sees and what my camera sees may be different.
The location appears to be nearly due south from the church.
A couple of interesting things. First, Luz was heaving with tourists (it's August). Spot them on the promenade, then count how many were on the rocks.
Second, the view to the east. My memory said this was a steep drop from the esplanade. My memory was wrong. There's just rocks and more rocks, in a gentle slope.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 09:12:21 AM
Photos 4 Aug 2015, roughly 7pm. I tried doing one that matches up with the photo earlier in the thread. What my eyeball sees and what my camera sees may be different.
The location appears to be nearly due south from the church.
A couple of interesting things. First, Luz was heaving with tourists (it's August). Spot them on the promenade, then count how many were on the rocks.
Second, the view to the east. My memory said this was a steep drop from the esplanade. My memory was wrong. There's just rocks and more rocks, in a gentle slope.
Find lots of good hiding places for a small body?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 11:22:29 AM
Photos 4 Aug 2015, roughly 7pm. I tried doing one that matches up with the photo earlier in the thread. What my eyeball sees and what my camera sees may be different.
The location appears to be nearly due south from the church.
A couple of interesting things. First, Luz was heaving with tourists (it's August). Spot them on the promenade, then count how many were on the rocks.
Second, the view to the east. My memory said this was a steep drop from the esplanade. My memory was wrong. There's just rocks and more rocks, in a gentle slope.
Thanks great work Shining. Do you think it's possible to hide a small child there in the dark from what you saw up-close? Anybody who was searching before first light (when anything could then be found) will be investigated.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
Thanks great work Shining. Do you think it's possible to hide a small child there in the dark from what you saw up-close? Anybody who was searching before first light (when anything could then be found) will be investigated.
Tell me you have walked, carrying a burden, on volcanic rocks in the dark on a foreshore which is washed by the sea ... and I will tell you that you are a stranger to the truth.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 11:34:52 AM
Tell me you have walked, carrying a burden, on volcanic rocks in the dark on a foreshore which is washed by the sea ... and I will tell you that you are a stranger to the truth.
High tide doesn't cover all the rocks at that location and anybody going out alone before first light will be investigated.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
High tide doesn't cover all the rocks at that location and anybody going out alone before first light will be investigated.
Just take a close look at the rock formations in Shining's photograph. I know rocks like that also on an Atlantic coast which is why I am certain you are way off track here.
Have you ever seen gulls scavenging a seal carcass? no sand flies on Portuguese beaches?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 01:16:21 PM
Just take a close look at the rock formations in Shining's photograph. I know rocks like that also on an Atlantic coast which is why I am certain you are way off track here.
Have you ever seen gulls scavenging a seal carcass? no sand flies on Portuguese beaches?
Certain people were out alone searching before first light after everyone else went to sleep. If you think you can't hide something temporarily in the dark in that location then you are wrong.
1485 'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
Reply 'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six.
Thanks great work Shining. Do you think it's possible to hide a small child there in the dark from what you saw up-close? Anybody who was searching before first light (when anything could then be found) will be investigated.
To be honest, I think the small beach (west of the Fortaleza/Bull) would be more favourable. If you are thinking of a temporary hiding place overnight, the rain water drain outlets also sound better. Whilst everyone seems to have searched 'the beach', I can't find much to suggest that people looked for a concealed body, as opposed to a live but missing child.
We don't usually have gulls here. They prefer Porto de Lagos, which is the regional rubbish tip, and where the living is easy.
The beach is prime dog walking territory early in the morning. The rocks are not.
At some point I'll see if I can nip down after dark. I think the lights from the promenade should give enough illumination to avoid breaking a leg.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 03:26:00 PM
To be honest, I think the small beach (west of the Fortaleza/Bull) would be more favourable. If you are thinking of a temporary hiding place overnight, the rain water drain outlets also sound better. Whilst everyone seems to have searched 'the beach', I can't find much to suggest that people looked for a concealed body, as opposed to a live but missing child.
We don't usually have gulls here. They prefer Porto de Lagos, which is the regional rubbish tip, and where the living is easy.
The beach is prime dog walking territory early in the morning. The rocks are not.
At some point I'll see if I can nip down after dark. I think the lights from the promenade should give enough illumination to avoid breaking a leg.
Thanks. After dark will be interesting. Quickly walk in Smithman's shoes from the sighting to the church and to the rocks (time it for an estimate?). I think 5 minutes is plenty to find a good place to hide in that location. I would look for gaps under rocks.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: jassi on August 05, 2015, 03:29:02 PM
Thanks. After dark will be interesting. Quickly walk in Smithman's shoes from the sighting to the church and to the rocks (time it for an estimate?). I think 5 minutes is plenty to find a good place to hide in that location. I would look for gaps under rocks.
You would need to remember where it was for later retrieval, so nowhere too far from the road.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 03:43:49 PM
You would need to remember where it was for later retrieval, so nowhere too far from the road.
Good point. I think you would have a rough idea where taking a straight line to the promenade. I think his main concern would not to be seen so a safe distance away. When that area is already dark and you put something in an even darker spot nobody will find it. You would have to be down on the ground and shine a torch underneath every rock to check. The volunteer searchers on the night didn't have many torches between them all.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 04:28:58 PM
Perhaps shining could carry a 30 lb sack of potatoes from Apt 5A onto the rocks later this evening and she if she can find a place to conceal it? Don't forget to time yourself too!
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2015, 04:38:01 PM
Good point. I think you would have a rough idea where taking a straight line to the promenade. I think his main concern would not to be seen so a safe distance away. When that area is already dark and you put something in an even darker spot nobody will find it. You would have to be down on the ground and shine a torch underneath every rock to check. The volunteer searchers on the night didn't have many torches between them all.
What happens when you have promenade lighting at your back and a dark ocean and a dark sky in front ...
Why am I having this conversation?? ... the concept is so ludicrous it borders on insanity!
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 04:42:38 PM
Good point. I think you would have a rough idea where taking a straight line to the promenade. I think his main concern would not to be seen so a safe distance away. When that area is already dark and you put something in an even darker spot nobody will find it. You would have to be down on the ground and shine a torch underneath every rock to check. The volunteer searchers on the night didn't have many torches between them all.
I expect "Smithman" had a torch though, otherwise it might have been tricky to find his special hideyhole in the dark, yes?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 05, 2015, 05:16:39 PM
Low tide at 10pm. High tide at 4:15am, so I'd need a snorkel. Otherwise I'm stuffed until around 10:30am on 4 May. Thus fairly high up the rocks, not at the bottom.
5am should be most people in bed, even those who searched late, and by then a near-full moon was adding to any street lights.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 05:17:54 PM
(http://i58.tinypic.com/1zqcvok.jpg)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 05:20:08 PM
Low tide at 10pm. High tide at 4:15am, so I'd need a snorkel. Otherwise I'm stuffed until around 10:30am on 4 May. Thus fairly high up the rocks, not at the bottom.
5am should be most people in bed, even those who searched late, and by then a near-full moon was adding to any street lights.
I can think of several replies to this, but most of them wouldn't be very tasteful, and probably not very funny.
But we will all be grateful for your photographs. This is getting more interesting by the minute.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 05:25:31 PM
The rocks location from the Dispatches documentary. If you walk from the church to the rocks this is what you would see at night. Search specialist Gary Lig said this pitch black location in an idea place to hide and sewer pipes.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 05:28:50 PM
The rocks location. If you walk from the church to the rocks this is what you would see at night. Search specialist Gary Lig said this pitch black location in an idea place to hide.
Pitch black. Yes, quite. How do you hide effectively a 30 pound sack of potatoes in the dark, on treacherous rocks?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
It had to be done. Where there's a will there's a way.
Could you perhaps shed a little more light on the way (if you'll pardon the pun). You're asking us to believe that it is not only possible but probable that "Smithman" carried a corpse from Apt 5a through town and onto pitch black and precarious rocks where, in the near darkness he found a suitable sized hole or handy sewer pipe, where he laid the body, returned to the Apartment (all in what? 10 minutes?) and then returned to the body before daybreak (hoping not to bump into any search parties) to move the corpse somewhere else, possibly a freezer? Is this what you truly, honestly believe?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
Pitch black. Yes, quite. How do you hide effectively a 30 pound sack of potatoes in the dark, on treacherous rocks?
......and without getting your shoes/clothes wet - or slipping on slimey rocks and stepping into little rock pools. A change of clothes would surely be necessary afterwards - if not a plaster cast for your broken ankle.
Far too fraught with difficulty to even contemplate in the dark IMO.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 05, 2015, 06:50:18 PM
......and without getting your shoes/clothes wet - or slipping on slimey rocks and stepping into little rock pools. A change of clothes would surely be necessary afterwards - if not a plaster cast for your broken ankle.
Far too thwart with difficulty to even contemplate in the dark IMO.
Especially as "Smithman" would have walked past loads of bins simply crying out for a child's body to be chucked in 'em, as Faithlilly will tell you. Perhaps Shining could shine some light on the number of bins between Apart 5A and the beach.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 05, 2015, 07:40:53 PM
......and without getting your shoes/clothes wet - or slipping on slimey rocks and stepping into little rock pools. A change of clothes would surely be necessary afterwards - if not a plaster cast for your broken ankle.
Far too thwart with difficulty to even contemplate in the dark IMO.
Gary Lig is the search expert and he said it's possible and I know it's possible. Smithman had past bins and the wasteland to get to where he was going to - the obvious answer is to the coast (it is close to the sighting and he was heading in that direction) if not inside.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 05, 2015, 09:05:53 PM
Of course it was possible, the question is did it really happen?
Also, what became of the body after it was lain on the rocks temporarily though?
As for the "bin theory" I cannot imagine this as a possibility, to horrble to contemplate, although many mothers have done this, it is normally with newborn babies.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 05, 2015, 09:55:36 PM
Gary Lig is the search expert and he said it's possible and I know it's possible. Smithman had past bins and the wasteland to get to where he was going to - the obvious answer is to the coast (it is close to the sighting and he was heading in that direction) if not inside.
Didn't these guys search all that area, Pathfinder?
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DRAINS.htm
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 06, 2015, 12:17:43 AM
Well they were already searching before 25 may. When do you believe that she was moved?
I would think away from there asap. You may find a clue. If not inside then possibly along the dark beach maybe up to the top of the cliffs. That beach camera should be checked for all movements along the beach that night.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: faithlilly on August 07, 2015, 10:01:01 AM
Then how do you know about all these holes suitable for hiding bodies? IMO that photo makes it look like a not very good place for hiding bodies, but if someone who has actually been there tells me that it is, then fair enough.
It is possible.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: faithlilly on August 07, 2015, 06:38:45 PM
How do you know? Tried it yourself? With a sack of potatoes obviously.
You said if someone had been to PDL could verify that it was possible you would be satisfied. I have been and I verify its possible so what's your problem ?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 07, 2015, 10:12:31 PM
You said if someone had been to PDL could verify that it was possible you would be satisfied. I have been and I verify its possible so what's your problem ?
I should have said someone who had been to PdL but who had an open mind, someone like Shining In Luz, my mistake and sorry for bothering you.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 10:47:21 PM
I should have said someone who had been to PdL but who had an open mind, someone like Shining In Luz, my mistake and sorry for bothering you.
How does havng an open or closed mind determine whether one CAN walk on any beach with any weight without slipping? or whatever it is you think makes it impossible
@)(++(*
It is just a matter of fact
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: faithlilly on August 07, 2015, 10:57:14 PM
I should have said someone who had been to PdL but who had an open mind, someone like Shining In Luz, my mistake and sorry for bothering you.
No bother Alfie. It was interesting to watch you eveal your bias quite so clearly.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 08, 2015, 02:52:26 AM
It was a bit cooler so here we have the first of the night time photos. All around 10:30pm on 7 Oct 2015, and yes, I do need to make my doodle-thingy whatsit work better at night, but life is what it is.
First up is the ice cream factory. It is immediately north of the Fortaleza, opposite the church.
I don't know if it was open in 2007. If it was, I don't know if it was open until 10pm. All I can say is it shut gates around 11pm tonight when the place was still heaving.
After this, the photos just show that I am not good at taking night-time photos. Sorry.
Forget photo view, here is eyeball view.
I could see rocks, crevices, up and down, all quite clearly. Safe, grippy. So I did not risk life or limb.
Second photo, please peer clearly. These are the 4 restaurants to the immediate south east of the church. Yes, I do need to get clearer photos in daytime.
Now we go to photo 3 and 4. Essentially, these look like mud. One to the west towards the Fortaleza, one to the east, on the promenade.
I have not captured the essence of the moment.
What can I say? Aug 2015 is definitely not May 2007. One can walk (no trouble). One can see (no trouble). There is light to the south of the church.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 08, 2015, 08:02:38 PM
After some disastrous photos last night, I decided to look up an instruction manual, but I have yet to test to see what happens.
So I played safe and trundled down to the square to the south of the church, on the basis that Google streetview does not cover this. 'Pologies in advance if I am repeating anyone who has done this before.
801. Immediately to the south of the church, looking south. There are 4 restaurants here, starting with the 'infamous' Chaplin's at the top. Two of these have changed hands but does one care? Four restaurants then, four now, each requiring car parking for staff and clients.
802. Church. If you don't recognise this you are somewhat behind the curve.
803. Exact same spot in the church grounds, looking NW. Chemist showing it is 30 degrees. That chemist features clearly in one of the early videos when the McCanns went to evening mass. Then it was an Ali Super convenience store, until the Ali Super chain went bankrupt. When it existed, it opened to 22:30. SY supposedly wished to put the dogs into a shop. You may well be looking at the one.
Next to it is a derelict building. Or to my eyes a prime investment opportunity because of its location.
804. The derelict building from 803, plus the Ice Cream Factory. Lousy photo of the Ice Cream Factory, but it does show how things knit together.
805. The Fortaleza, immediately to the south of the Ice Cream Factory.
The is now a children's bouncy castle play area immediately to the south of the church. It was not here in 2007, so I cannot see it is relevant.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 08, 2015, 08:23:11 PM
After some disastrous photos last night, I decided to look up an instruction manual, but I have yet to test to see what happens.
So I played safe and trundled down to the square to the south of the church, on the basis that Google streetview does not cover this. 'Pologies in advance if I am repeating anyone who has done this before.
801. Immediately to the south of the church, looking south. There are 4 restaurants here, starting with the 'infamous' Chaplin's at the top. Two of these have changed hands but does one care? Four restaurants then, four now, each requiring car parking for staff and clients.
802. Church. If you don't recognise this you are somewhat behind the curve.
803. Exact same spot in the church grounds, looking NW. Chemist showing it is 30 degrees. That chemist features clearly in one of the early videos when the McCanns went to evening mass. Then it was an Ali Super convenience store, until the Ali Super chain went bankrupt. When it existed, it opened to 22:30. SY supposedly wished to put the dogs into a shop. You may well be looking at the one.
Next to it is a derelict building. Or to my eyes a prime investment opportunity because of its location.
804. The derelict building from 803, plus the Ice Cream Factory. Lousy photo of the Ice Cream Factory, but it does show how things knit together.
805. The Fortaleza, immediately to the south of the Ice Cream Factory.
The is now a children's bouncy castle play area immediately to the south of the church. It was not here in 2007, so I cannot see it is relevant.
Questions have already been raised on the forum re. the derelict building by ... guess who? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2713.msg92786#msg92786
I have a recollection there is a connection to someone who has an inadvertent connection to Madeleine's case ... I will look for a cite.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 08, 2015, 09:23:18 PM
After some disastrous photos last night, I decided to look up an instruction manual, but I have yet to test to see what happens.
So I played safe and trundled down to the square to the south of the church, on the basis that Google streetview does not cover this. 'Pologies in advance if I am repeating anyone who has done this before.
801. Immediately to the south of the church, looking south. There are 4 restaurants here, starting with the 'infamous' Chaplin's at the top. Two of these have changed hands but does one care? Four restaurants then, four now, each requiring car parking for staff and clients.
802. Church. If you don't recognise this you are somewhat behind the curve.
803. Exact same spot in the church grounds, looking NW. Chemist showing it is 30 degrees. That chemist features clearly in one of the early videos when the McCanns went to evening mass. Then it was an Ali Super convenience store, until the Ali Super chain went bankrupt. When it existed, it opened to 22:30. SY supposedly wished to put the dogs into a shop. You may well be looking at the one.
Next to it is a derelict building. Or to my eyes a prime investment opportunity because of its location.
804. The derelict building from 803, plus the Ice Cream Factory. Lousy photo of the Ice Cream Factory, but it does show how things knit together.
805. The Fortaleza, immediately to the south of the Ice Cream Factory.
The is now a children's bouncy castle play area immediately to the south of the church. It was not here in 2007, so I cannot see it is relevant.
801 Chaplins. Very good food there. Place was buzzing when we were there in 2010
802. The Chuch in PdL. German-Jewish Rosicrucian cross on the top and Jewish descending dove in the round window.
In the church at Figueira (Joana Cipriano was last seen on the church plaza steps at Figueira) there is also a wall mural showing the descending dove, but I didn't notice a Rosicrucian cross. The mural was very like one of psychic Matt James runes. Almost identical. Lots of little islands in the sea below a lace cuffed open hand ... with a chalice overflowing with ?wine. The wine dripping down into the sea.
Reminded me of the tiny islands off the Greek coast, where the Phoenician Jewish pirates came from
804 The derelict building between the supermarket / Fortazela. Like you, I cannot understand why this has not been snapped up as a building site? Have wondered, and only wondered, if a tunnel onto the little rocky beach below surfaces in a hidden way here. Maybe a smugglers route? Maybe its potential for smuggling income outways its value as a building plot? Only guessing
I am talking about the tunnel that Colin Sahkle and Stephen Taylor explored. It certainly went back quite a distance cos it had partially collapsed when I visited in 2010
The tunnel has now vanished and was so cleverly disguised that Heriberto did not even realise that there was a tunnel there. The disguise, was it a Liz Taylor job?
805 The Fortezela. Supposedly an upper class restaurant when I visited in 2010, but in late 2014 we went in for a cuppa on the outside terrace. Magnificent views over the tiny rocky beach from there. The ancient Fortezela is the most southerly building there and is raised on a rocky out crop, which is cliff like on the western side
Thanks Shining ... a lot of work .... brings back memories and helps place things.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 09, 2015, 03:45:34 AM
Three 'rocks' photos. Just by a visual squiz, these look like close to low tide to me. You can judge how far the rocks go, based on the youths in the middle ground and the adults in the distance.
The one with the somewhat pink young man taking a photo. That one is in simply because you can locate that spot on Google Earth, south of the church, quite easily. He was taking a photo of the beach and the holidaymakers, I was interested in the spot he was standing in because it shows the rainwater drain quite well.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Carana on August 09, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Many thanks for all your photos, Shining. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 09, 2015, 07:12:29 PM
This is the rainwater outlet which is immediately south of the church.
I don't know the man's name, but I believe he was calling the doggy Niall, and the dog seemed to think the outlet was a tasty sniff.
What I don't know is what this looked like in May 2007. The rainwater runoff from Rua Direita must go down here now. Whether this was here before the upgrade I do not know.
The outlet does not protrude very much. Roughly speaking, you have to know it is there in order to look for it.
The last photo is to the east. You can see Niall is still dragging his owner about. If you look above that to the left, you can see the easiest way onto the rocks, a gentle dirt path down from the promenade. There's a couple of shorter, but much more precarious routes.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 09, 2015, 07:34:58 PM
This is the rainwater outlet which is immediately south of the church.
I don't know the man's name, but I believe he was calling the doggy Niall, and the dog seemed to think the outlet was a tasty sniff.
What I don't know is what this looked like in May 2007. The rainwater runoff from Rua Direita must go down here now. Whether this was here before the upgrade I do not know.
The outlet does not protrude very much. Roughly speaking, you have to know it is there in order to look for it.
The last photo is to the east. You can see Niall is still dragging his owner about. If you look above that to the left, you can see the easiest way onto the rocks, a gentle dirt path down from the promenade. There's a couple of shorter, but much more precarious routes.
This is the rainwater outlet which is immediately south of the church.
I don't know the man's name, but I believe he was calling the doggy Niall, and the dog seemed to think the outlet was a tasty sniff.
What I don't know is what this looked like in May 2007. The rainwater runoff from Rua Direita must go down here now. Whether this was here before the upgrade I do not know.
The outlet does not protrude very much. Roughly speaking, you have to know it is there in order to look for it.
The last photo is to the east. You can see Niall is still dragging his owner about. If you look above that to the left, you can see the easiest way onto the rocks, a gentle dirt path down from the promenade. There's a couple of shorter, but much more precarious routes.
Thanks for all the great images Shining. Did you notice this drain opening in the same area?
That photo was published 25th may 2007 and as you can see they are already searching. I doubt that we will find one sooner and most aren't dated, but I will look.
That photo was published 25th may 2007 and as you can see they are already searching. I doubt that we will find one sooner and most aren't dated, but I will look.
The green patch in the foreground is exactly the same rainwater drain that Anna and I posted earlier. So here we have a single rainwater drain, not two.
I examined to the east because Google Earth makes it look like there is another major outlet in that direction.
There isn't. (Not before the east end of the beach.)
I found a small hole that is probably an old rain-water outlet, but if it is, it looks to date from the 1950s or earlier. It is small (about the size of a toddler's football) and it has a lattice of concrete over the opening.
I've got pics, but I don't think they are relevant.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 12:27:22 AM
I don't think you need to look for an earlier one.
The front was not dug up and re-laid in 22 days, so I think you have already provided the answer.
Merci. 8(0(*
You are most welcome, Shining. You have done a lot of work on these photos and we are all very grateful.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 11, 2015, 08:23:06 PM
Two more photos, this time from the west end of the plaza south of the Fortaleza. These are of the 'little beach' rather than the main beach. I happen to be of the opinion that Smithman headed south, therefore this area is more likely than the main beach, or the rocks to the south of the church.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I don't think Smithman went onto the little beach on 3 May 2007. But this is my opinion.
I took the photos when the sun was straight in my face, which explains why these photos look washed out. I could stick them through a photo editor, but I don't see the point. If you want to see a much clearer view of the little beach, go to Google maps, where someone in Nov 2014 took much the same view (no sun in eyes) and labelled it Vie sur la Mer.
What do we have?
Again, these look like low tide. At high tide, the sea covers most or all of the sand. Also, 8 August is hardly the same weather as 3 May. Luz has a lot of Portuguese tourists as it is their holiday period. I would expect on 3 May to see a deserted beach.
Now have a look at the shiny silver car in the centre. That is blocking what was basically the only way onto the little beach in 2007. Another way, a pedestrian pathway down the side of The Bull pub/restaurant, was in serious disrepair at the time, though it has been patched up since.
Now go up top to the blob on the skyline in the centre. That is the mound, famous for being dug up by Scotland Yard in June 2014. (Note, the Google photo makes this much clearer.)
Finally, look at the concrete block on the RHS. It actually looks deserted, but this building may turn out to be important. That is Number 2, Rua Primeiro de Maio. I have been exchanging info with Heriberto on phone traffic that night in 2007. I don't know if there is enough phone traffic to crack the case. However, I do think it is the best chance.
Now turn to the second photo. I have put this in for one reason only. If you look at the young male in the foreground, it becomes crystal clear that if I took a few steps forwards, I would not be around to tell the tale. There is a photo, somewhere, looking from the little beach east to the Fortaleza which also makes this 'cliff' clear.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2015, 08:44:44 PM
Two more photos, this time from the west end of the plaza south of the Fortaleza. These are of the 'little beach' rather than the main beach. I happen to be of the opinion that Smithman headed south, therefore this area is more likely than the main beach, or the rocks to the south of the church.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I don't think Smithman went onto the little beach on 3 May 2007. But this is my opinion.
I took the photos when the sun was straight in my face, which explains why these photos look washed out. I could stick them through a photo editor, but I don't see the point. If you want to see a much clearer view of the little beach, go to Google maps, where someone in Nov 2014 took much the same view (no sun in eyes) and labelled it Vie sur la Mer.
What do we have?
Again, these look like low tide. At high tide, the sea covers most or all of the sand. Also, 8 August is hardly the same weather as 3 May. Luz has a lot of Portuguese tourists as it is their holiday period. I would expect on 3 May to see a deserted beach.
Now have a look at the shiny silver car in the centre. That is blocking what was basically the only way onto the little beach in 2007. Another way, a pedestrian pathway down the side of The Bull pub/restaurant, was in serious disrepair at the time, though it has been patched up since.
Now go up top to the blob on the skyline in the centre. That is the mound, famous for being dug up by Scotland Yard in June 2014. (Note, the Google photo makes this much clearer.)
Finally, look at the concrete block on the RHS. It actually looks deserted, but this building may turn out to be important. That is Number 2, Rua Primeiro de Maio. I have been exchanging info with Heriberto on phone traffic that night in 2007. I don't know if there is enough phone traffic to crack the case. However, I do think it is the best chance.
Now turn to the second photo. I have put this in for one reason only. If you look at the young male in the foreground, it becomes crystal clear that if I took a few steps forwards, I would not be around to tell the tale. There is a photo, somewhere, looking from the little beach east to the Fortaleza which also makes this 'cliff' clear.
... and just one good reason why it wouldn't have been a good idea for a stranger to the area to be wandering around in the dark looking for a deposition site.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 13, 2015, 04:17:32 AM
Smithman.
Photo 816 is close to where Aoife was (I should have been a step to the left).
Primary school street is one-way, on this part from south to north (cars going up). Just at the top of the hill it changes (blue sign saying turn right and all the cars coming down). LuzDoc is the building with the red stripe on the left corner.
Note the street lights or absence thereof. There is one at the bottom, a couple of yards to the right of where the photo was taken.
Peter Smith was half way up this hill, and when Smithman passed him, Smithman was in the middle of the road.
Martin Smith was on the bottom left corner, and when Smithman went by, Smithman was in the middle of the road.
The route to the main beach is to the right, down Rua 25 de Abril. If Smithman was heading to the main beach, or to the rocks to the south of the church, the route was in front of Aoife, heading to her right.
Smithman did not go that way.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 13, 2015, 04:33:21 AM
Photo 817 is about correct for Aoife's Smithman sighting. She looked up Rua 25 de Abril and Smithman was about 2m away, heading in her direction.
The people in the photo are a little distant. They should only be a car length away.
LuzDoc is on the right. Martin Smith's corner is on the right.
Smithman had dog-legged to Aoife's left. I would assume to get through a gap in the cars.
If he was heading to the main beach, he was going the wrong way.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 13, 2015, 04:51:13 AM
Photo 818 is the street of little steps.
At the bottom, on the right, the building with the blue awning and the curved shape is the Dolphin, where the Smith group of 9 ate on 3 May 2007, before heading for Kelly's.
Kelly's is to the left of where the building down the left hand side stops.
So the Smiths ate in the Dolphin, went to the left to Kelly's, came back to near the Dolphin, and headed up the street of little steps.
The difference from the photo is that this has 3 family members and it is bright sunshine. On 3 May 2007 it was 9 family members strung out in groups, and by 10pm it was dark with only the street lights.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
Photo 816 is close to where Aoife was (I should have been a step to the left).
Primary school street is one-way, on this part from south to north (cars going up). Just at the top of the hill it changes (blue sign saying turn right and all the cars coming down). LuzDoc is the building with the red stripe on the left corner.
Note the street lights or absence thereof. There is one at the bottom, a couple of yards to the right of where the photo was taken.
Peter Smith was half way up this hill, and when Smithman passed him, Smithman was in the middle of the road.
Martin Smith was on the bottom left corner, and when Smithman went by, Smithman was in the middle of the road.
The route to the main beach is to the right, down Rua 25 de Abril. If Smithman was heading to the main beach, or to the rocks to the south of the church, the route was in front of Aoife, heading to her right.
Smithman did not go that way.
Thanks for all the photos Shining. SY thought he did go down Rua 25 de Abril like I said in CW. You should re-watch it.
Aoife said Smithman was going down Rua 25 de Abril when he passed. The steps are a possibility but to get to the main beach he had to go down Rua 25 de Abril to the church then to the rocks.
23:45 "Heading that way towards the beach."
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 13, 2015, 08:00:03 PM
Thanks for all the photos Shining. SY thought he did go down Rua 25 de Abril like I said in CW. You should re-watch it.
Aoife said Smithman was going down Rua 25 de Abril when he passed. The steps are a possibility but to get to the main beach he had to go down Rua 25 de Abril to the church then to the rocks.
23:45 "Heading that way towards the beach."
At 23:45, Matthew Emery Waller, the programme presenter, says the man headed down Rua 25 de Abril. Nobody from SY says it. The Crimewatch of Oct 2013 is replete with errors of this nature. From memory it kicks off with the McCanns arriving in Luz with a double buggy for the twins, a double buggy that did not exist. If that buggy had existed, it is quite possible the McCanns would have taken the 3 kids to the Millennium on 3 May. It was the long walk, without a buggy, that made the Millennium impractical.
So what did Peter Smith actually say about where Smithman went? His statement is clear that he did not track Smithman after passing him, so he didn't know.
Martin Smith was in the same position. He did not know where Smithman went after passing him. Mind you, if Smithman turned and went down 25 da Abril to the beach, he should have been turning or heading that way already, not wandering down the middle of the street.
That leaves us with Aoife. Now Aoife is very clear that she does not know where Smithman went AFTER she saw him, whether he went down the street of steps or continued down 25 de Abril. But she places him on 25 de Abril coming towards her from her left.
To get to the beach, Smithman should have been in front of her going to her right.
Matthew Emery Waller is a programme presenter, out there to illustrate a role. He is not a definitive source.
We don't know for sure where Smithman went. His path is not consistent with heading towards the main beach. His path is consistent with heading down the street of steps.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 08:10:02 PM
..... We don't know for sure where Smithman went. His path is not consistent with heading towards the main beach. His path is consistent with heading down the street of steps.
Agreed. Travessa Das Escadhinas.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 08:30:18 PM
At 23:45, Matthew Emery Waller, the programme presenter, says the man headed down Rua 25 de Abril. Nobody from SY says it. The Crimewatch of Oct 2013 is replete with errors of this nature. From memory it kicks off with the McCanns arriving in Luz with a double buggy for the twins, a double buggy that did not exist. If that buggy had existed, it is quite possible the McCanns would have taken the 3 kids to the Millennium on 3 May. It was the long walk, without a buggy, that made the Millennium impractical.
So what did Peter Smith actually say about where Smithman went? His statement is clear that he did not track Smithman after passing him, so he didn't know.
Martin Smith was in the same position. He did not know where Smithman went after passing him. Mind you, if Smithman turned and went down 25 da Abril to the beach, he should have been turning or heading that way already, not wandering down the middle of the street.
That leaves us with Aoife. Now Aoife is very clear that she does not know where Smithman went AFTER she saw him, whether he went down the street of steps or continued down 25 de Abril. But she places him on 25 de Abril coming towards her from her left.
To get to the beach, Smithman should have been in front of her going to her right.
Matthew Emery Waller is a programme presenter, out there to illustrate a role. He is not a definitive source.
We don't know for sure where Smithman went. His path is not consistent with heading towards the main beach. His path is consistent with heading down the street of steps.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 10:59:26 PM
Here hoping for your opinion ShiningInLuz. Where do people of Travessa Das Eschadinas and Rua Salgadeiras park?. Is it possible some park in the parking area between Rua Escola and Rua Ema Vieira Alvernaz and walk from there? (This is looking for innocent explanation for smithsighting)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2015, 12:00:14 AM
Here hoping for your opinion ShiningInLuz. Where do people of Travessa Das Eschadinas and Rua Salgadeiras park?. Is it possible some park in the parking area between Rua Escola and Rua Ema Vieira Alvernaz and walk from there? (This is looking for innocent explanation for smithsighting)
Primary school street and Rua ... Alvernaz have tons of parking. The block beside Smithman on the east has underground parking.
The street of little steps does not have many occupied buildings. Parking to the north would be 25 de Abril, which is always packed, even in 3 May. Parking to the south would be Calheta, which is equally stuffed, unless one goes west a way.
Salgadeiras has few buildings on it, plenty of parking space, and is well placed to get out of the Luz one-way system.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 01:42:40 AM
At 23:45, Matthew Emery Waller, the programme presenter, says the man headed down Rua 25 de Abril. Nobody from SY says it. The Crimewatch of Oct 2013 is replete with errors of this nature. From memory it kicks off with the McCanns arriving in Luz with a double buggy for the twins, a double buggy that did not exist. If that buggy had existed, it is quite possible the McCanns would have taken the 3 kids to the Millennium on 3 May. It was the long walk, without a buggy, that made the Millennium impractical.
So what did Peter Smith actually say about where Smithman went? His statement is clear that he did not track Smithman after passing him, so he didn't know.
Martin Smith was in the same position. He did not know where Smithman went after passing him. Mind you, if Smithman turned and went down 25 da Abril to the beach, he should have been turning or heading that way already, not wandering down the middle of the street.
That leaves us with Aoife. Now Aoife is very clear that she does not know where Smithman went AFTER she saw him, whether he went down the street of steps or continued down 25 de Abril. But she places him on 25 de Abril coming towards her from her left.
To get to the beach, Smithman should have been in front of her going to her right.
Matthew Emery Waller is a programme presenter, out there to illustrate a role. He is not a definitive source.
We don't know for sure where Smithman went. His path is not consistent with heading towards the main beach. His path is consistent with heading down the street of steps.
Sorry to disagree slightly, Shining.
I agree that the most likely scenario is that Smithman went down the steps behind her towards the little rocky beach or even to the homes or commercial premises near the bottom of the steps ... or even along the front in a westerly direction, but if he was coming from ther left then he was possibly travelling to her right [or maybe going straight on].
If he was travelling to her right , then he could have been going down R 25 Abril towards the Sergie Malinkas place, other homes and biusiness premises. ... and the church.
However I do agree with you that he would be unlikely to go down R25 Abril cos that took him straight to the town Centre with more people, more going on, the ATM machine as well.
I think he went down the steps, but it would be guesswork where he went from there. I am guessing that they ended up on that tiny rocky beach to be whisked away by a boat. Whether they got down the frightening decrepit steps by the side of The Bull, or by this ?tunnel is another question
This ?tunnel has now been blocked off and expertly hidden. So well hidden that Heri said that there was no tunnel on that tiny beach. We later proved that wrong using Heris expert skills. When I visited in Oct/Nov last year the beautiful tunnel disguise had vanished, but you could still see no tunnel entrance.
Did the tunnel start at one of the premises in the roadway above?
The Bull? The Fortezela? The derelict house? The house, Number 7 R. de Calheta, which is immediately to the west of the Bull? ... this house is unusual in a couple of ways 1) It has a very unwelcoming secure looking exterior with an intercom entrance. 2) It also has what appears to me to be large aerials on top. I dont know what sort they are.
It is also quite possible that any tunnel might go back quite a distance, in which case it goes near Sergie Malinkas place.
But I am only guessing the small rocky beach and boat pick up. Seems the most likely tho.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 03:12:45 AM
Primary school street and Rua ... Alvernaz have tons of parking. The block beside Smithman on the east has underground parking.
The street of little steps does not have many occupied buildings. Parking to the north would be 25 de Abril, which is always packed, even in 3 May. Parking to the south would be Calheta, which is equally stuffed, unless one goes west a way.
Salgadeiras has few buildings on it, plenty of parking space, and is well placed to get out of the Luz one-way system.
Thankyou ShiningInLuz for the parking information - very interesting. Near the steps end of Rua Salgadeiras I can see space on the south side for several cars . But for the remainder of its length it looks much less than 2 cars width so parking on it would block the road?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 03:32:25 AM
@Sadie do you have a link for the rectangular drain outlet being blocked up now please?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 04:06:49 PM
In Oct/Nov last year when i visited again, all the prettiness of the skilful concealment of the tunnel had been stripped away, leaving a mess. Maybe Shining would be kind enough to go and photograph it as it is now? Thanks in anticipation
BTW, it isn't a drain. That's what they want us to believe. ....it seems
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 04:24:55 PM
No idea. Sadie. There is a tiny beach to the west of this. Reached by side streets from r. da calheta and the upturned boats are a bit further up. Think I have a map saved too.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 04:43:42 PM
In Oct/Nov last year when i visited again, all the prettiness of the skilful concealment of the tunnel had been stripped away, leaving a mess. Maybe Shining would be kind enough to go and photograph it as it is now? Thanks in anticipation
BTW, it isn't a drain. That's what they want us to believe. ....it seems
It capsized.
PS.Photo sorted
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 05:09:10 PM
@Sadie. Thankyou very much. You are correct - in this photo the opening has blocked. Probably a concrete block wall, then more concrete applied to match surrounding surfaces. http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/hg/1/1226_1250/PB030201.JPG
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 05:21:47 PM
...... In Oct/Nov last year when i visited again, all the prettiness of the skilful concealment of the tunnel had been stripped away, leaving a mess ......
Interesting. Probably water does flow through this tunnel after heavy rain, and the water demolished a futile attempt to block it? IMO if smithman's route led to a beach, it is this small beach.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 05:39:13 PM
Interesting. Probably water does flow through this tunnel after heavy rain, and the water demolished a futile attempt to block it? IMO if smithman's route led to a beach, it is this small beach.
I agree, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 05:52:02 PM
Interesting. Probably water does flow through this tunnel after heavy rain, and the water demolished a futile attempt to block it? IMO if smithman's route led to a beach, it is this small beach.
This is the small rocky beach that Smithman looked as tho he might be heading towards .... it is immediately west of the Fortezela .... and this beach has the tunnel [or major cave].
The outlet is not designed as a drain. It is a natural fault in the rocks and could go back, inland, a very long way.
But highly likely that in very heavy rain, water would seep thru the rock strata and trickle out.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 05:56:55 PM
Just west of the Fort is a larger square outlet with a low tide at 10pm 3rd may, which has a trench like channel going into the sea. The small beach nearby is almost submerged in high tide. Access via Rua da calheta?
The promenade area above the actual outlet caved in at some time after 2007 Maybe they had to fill it in with concrete to make the path above stable again……not sure???
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 06:31:33 PM
Just west of the Fort is a larger square outlet with a low tide at 10pm 3rd may, which has a trench like channel going into the sea. The small beach nearby is almost submerged in high tide. Access via Rua da calheta?
The promenade area above the actual outlet caved in at some time after 2007 Maybe they had to fill it in with concrete to make the path above stable again……not sure???
Yep, the public route is via Rua de Calhete and via the back of the sitting out area at THe Bull Inn.
In 2010 the steps down were almost impossible to navigate, the steps had so crumbled. Approx 90% gone in many places. I went down very cautiously with my back pressed against the wall and holding anything that I could find. Scrub and bushes grew across the steps as well in places.
When Heri went in ? early 2012 the steps down had been completely renovated, shrubby stuff tamed as well.
When I went down for a second time last autumn, the concrete steps were showing distinct signs of breaking up again ... and the tunnel entrance was really crudely showing. Any old rocks and rubbish had been used to fill it in.
But there was something else which was very interesting, which I cant show you. Soz.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 07:19:48 PM
Yep, the public route is via Rua de Calhete and via the back of the sitting out area at THe Bull Inn.
In 2010 the steps down were almost impossible to navigate, the steps had so crumbled. Approx 90% gone in many places. I went down very cautiously with my back pressed against the wall and holding anything that I could find. Scrub and bushes grew across the steps as well in places.
When Heri went in ? early 2012 the steps down had been completely renovated, shrubby stuff tamed as well.
When I went down for a second time last autumn, the concrete steps were showing distinct signs of breaking up again ... and the tunnel entrance was really crudely showing. Any old rocks and rubbish had been used to fill it in.
But there was something else which was very interesting, which I cant show you. Soz.
Did it look like water building up behind had destroyed the earlier work to block it?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 07:23:08 PM
Yep, the public route is via Rua de Calhete and via the back of the sitting out area at THe Bull Inn.
In 2010 the steps down were almost impossible to navigate, the steps had so crumbled. Approx 90% gone in many places. I went down very cautiously with my back pressed against the wall and holding anything that I could find. Scrub and bushes grew across the steps as well in places.
When Heri went in ? early 2012 the steps down had been completely renovated, shrubby stuff tamed as well.
When I went down for a second time last autumn, the concrete steps were showing distinct signs of breaking up again ... and the tunnel entrance was really crudely showing. Any old rocks and rubbish had been used to fill it in.
But there was something else which was very interesting, which I cant show you. Soz.
Thanks Sadie. Is that the only way in to that beach?
A couple of realistic photos
2/ Villa on the seafront showing all around 1/ Route to this beach? or is it further west?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 07:38:56 PM
From Rua Calheta you can get to the small beach and its rectangular drain by steps next to Bull or this way http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z5.JPG or this way http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z11.JPG (Photos by JeanDarc 2010)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 07:46:54 PM
From Rua Calheta you can get to the small beach and its rectangular drain by steps next to Bull or this way http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z5.JPG or this way http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z11.JPG (Photos by JeanDarc 2010)
Thanks Pegasus The second photo is what I was thinking about.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
Thanks Pegasus The second photo is what I was thinking about.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z11.JPG is at the end of Travessa Das Fontainhas http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/z5.JPG is about 30 metres east of that Both give access to the small beach. Photos by JeanDarc 2010.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 09:55:25 PM
Did it look like water building up behind had destroyed the earlier work to block it?
Let me have a look at my photo
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2015, 10:37:51 PM
The subject of parking (in Portugal) has come up earlier in the thread.
Please let me illustrate parking in Portugal.
From today, here is how one parks in Portugal. The street is wide enough that if a bus was parked on one side, I could still get another bus up the other side.
Yet MercedesMan thinks the road is not for the car, while the pavement is.
Please note the whacking great gates besides MercedesMan. This suggests there was a whacking great drive behind. Yet MercedesMan chose to block the pavement, and the gates.
This speaks volumes about Luz. There is another classic parking photo, much more relevant to Smithman, in the pipeline.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 10:41:22 PM
OMG ! .... virtually all the front closing off the tunnel has gone and it appears to lead straight back with concrete steps up, which imo would take it into the very raised garden of the very secure looking house behind .... or towards the house itself, maybe underground.
But hang on, this image shows a different picture http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/56550231.jpg (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/56550231.jpg) On the left is the fortress wall of the Fortezela. On this image, you can see that the collapsed tunnel/cave is tending to veer towards the Fortezela, the garden of the derelict house ... or The Bull.
BTW, the diagonal edge dropping away from the platform, with the sea on the other side ,is the wall that the tunnel/cave entrance is in.
I didn't count the steps down from that platform, but they were quite few. The platform was elevated to about first floor level IIRC., so space to move around below, or store things maybe.
I think behind that fairly narrow tunnel entrance, there must be a big void / cave as well as a tunnel. People do not make concrete steps unless they are leading somewhere
Maybe there is an entrance from that tunnel to more than one place above sea level? Kinda smugglers haven?
OOoo-er, this is getting exciting ... for me anyhow 8(>((
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 10:55:39 PM
@Sadie, from your post it sounds like you have a photo showing steps inside that tunnel? If so it is likely to be stepped stone work of the conduit construction (not steps for humans) IMO..
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 11:08:16 PM
@Sadie, from your post it sounds like you have a photo showing steps inside that tunnel? If so it is likely to be stepped stone work of the conduit construction (not steps for humans) IMO..
No not stepped conduit. I think I know all about that, they are stepped and overlapping large slabs of natural stone generally. Once owned such a tunnel in a rushing hillside stream - waterfall!- and precariously climbed thru it..
These steps are concrete on small bits of stone and rubble. Rough concrete, but concrete alright.
The stone pieces are not suitable for running water of any intensity. They would get washed away ... and so would the concrete.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
No not stepped conduit. I think I know all about that, they are stepped and overlapping large slabs of natural stone generally. Once owned such a tunnel in a rushing hillside stream - waterfall!- and precariously climbed thru it..
These steps are concrete on small bits of stone and rubble. Rough concrete, but concrete alright.
The stone pieces are not suitable for running water of any intensity. They would get washed away ... and so would the concrete.
Just to clarify, are these steps inside the opening?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 11:21:07 PM
Just to clarify, are these steps inside the opening?
Yep looks like it, just two steps can be seen, but they appear stepped back within the entrance and start at a riased level. Maybe 2 feet off the ground? Difficult to judge.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 11:55:06 PM
Thanks Sadie. Is that the only way in to that beach?
A couple of realistic photos
2/ Villa on the seafront showing all around 1/ Route to this beach? or is it further west?
Soz, Anna. I missed this post.
I dont think that I went far enough west to see the places shown in your photograph, but as Pegasus says that there is a route thru there, then there must be.
I would think it would be a bit precarious after dark to get to the tiny beach across the rocks, that way tho ... but I dont know.
Precarious via the steps down from the Bull too. They were in a very bad state when I went down them in 2010 ... dangerous in the daylight tbh.
A tunnel route out of sight via a building would be the best way, if there is such a route [smugglers route?]
*IF * there is such a route .. and it seems there is a posibility, but we dont know for certain
I really like that little beach and a boat whizzing Madeleine off, up to Sines. It ticks all the boxes ... apart from being rather difficult to access, but a smugglers tunnel could by pass all the danger
Am off to bed. Sleep well all
Nigh night xx
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 11:56:58 PM
Yep looks like it, just two steps can be seen, but they appear stepped back within the entrance and start at a riased level. Maybe 2 feet off the ground? Difficult to judge.
Thanks Sadie. Maybe those "steps" are the surviving base of the now fallen wall which had previously blocked the entrance?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 12:11:35 AM
Thanks Sadie. Maybe those "steps" are the surviving base of the now fallen wall which had previously blocked the entrance?
Dont think so. Wouldn't make sense.
Maybe it is still like it and if Shining has the time, she could go and look. Maybe take a couple of photos.
She might find something else not far away from that entrance that she would like to photograph too. I have the photos but I am unable to safely post them. Interesting and intriguing stuff ... might be gone now if someone has destroyed it.
Sorry I cant be more explicit, but will join in if photos are posted ... and I am feeling well enough.
Nigh Night
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 15, 2015, 01:35:42 AM
Smithman sighting, as far as I could emulate it.
1404. Primary School Street, a bit to the north (uphill) from the 1st Smith sighting. Underground car parking, with a sign at the bottom that says Residents Only, but what the heck, this is Portugal, and why waste good parking space on pedestrians?
Please note the street light on the left. That is the nearest to the Peter Smith sighting. There is no other lighting until you get to the bottom.
The little reddy/brown car at the bottom is important. It is basically smack dab on top of Aoife/Smithman.
I can't tell in this one whether there are people coming up the street of little steps. At 10pm on 3 May 2007 no-one could possibly see. They might have been able to hear.
1405. Peter Smith sighting. I think he was on the LHS, at the end of the building/start of the wall. Notice there is no sign of a street light. The people popping up out of the street of little steps are definitely there, but hard to see.
1406. Near the Martin Smith sighting. The person in white is roughly where Martin Smith was. Please note the scabby brown doors on the building between the cars. Folks coming up the street of little steps in a group, so should I walk towards them or just go a bit to one side to get round them?
1407. As far as I can tell, this Smithman's viewpoint when he saw Aoife. The scabby brown door shows it is about 2m to reach Aoife at the top of the street of the little steps.
Now, for all I know, Smithman did a zig-zag for some weird reason. Smithman could have crossed the road again for a Chinese takeaway. Or popped into the Snug Bar or the Cave Bar. Personally, today, I preferred down the street of little steps, to the little beach.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 09:37:19 AM
@ShiningInLuz. Thanks for the photos. Yes when the young witness A emerged from Travessa das Escadhinas she saw the man 2 metres to her left. The position of the man at that moment is marked by the red circle labelled "A" in upper photo here. This is likely to be correct because the witnesses went to the location with the investigators and showed them the positions. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith3.jpg
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 09:50:15 AM
Maybe it is still like it and if Shining has the time, she could go and look. Maybe take a couple of photos.
She might find something else not far away from that entrance that she would like to photograph too. I have the photos but I am unable to safely post them. Interesting and intriguing stuff ... might be gone now if someone has destroyed it.
Sorry I cant be more explicit, but will join in if photos are posted ... and I am feeling well enough.
Nigh Night
The plant debris in the opening indicate it is a stream which was made into an underground stream when it was built over IMO.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 11:13:09 AM
The plant debris in the opening indicate it is a stream which was made into an underground stream when it was built over IMO.
Two things:
1) The twigs could have been put there to discourage people to go in there
2) The twigs could be from the tree that is close to the collapsed area inn the paving at the level above. [see the image above] The inside of the cavity, be it tunnel or cave, is likely to slope downwards. There fore the winds and incoming high tides would tend to blow/ wash the twigs down towards that entrance.
If that were a drain, I do not believe that PdL authorities would have totally closed it off.
Think about it Pegasus; it wouldn't make sense to block off a drain. Would it?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 11:36:54 AM
1) The twigs could have been put there to discourage people to go in there
2) The twigs could be from the tree that is close to the collapsed area inn the paving at the level above. [see the image above] The inside of the cavity, be it tunnel or cave, is likely to slope downwards. There fore the winds and incoming high tides would tend to blow/ wash the twigs down towards that entrance.
If that were a drain, I do not believe that PdL authorities would have totally closed it off.
Think about it Pegasus; it wouldn't make sense to block off a drain. Would it?
Wrong kind of twigs IMO Sadie. IMO the only reason to construct an opening there is if there is sometimes rainwater flow through it.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 01:25:15 PM
1404. Primary School Street, a bit to the north (uphill) from the 1st Smith sighting. Underground car parking, with a sign at the bottom that says Residents Only, but what the heck, this is Portugal, and why waste good parking space on pedestrians?
Please note the street light on the left. That is the nearest to the Peter Smith sighting. There is no other lighting until you get to the bottom.
The little reddy/brown car at the bottom is important. It is basically smack dab on top of Aoife/Smithman.
I can't tell in this one whether there are people coming up the street of little steps. At 10pm on 3 May 2007 no-one could possibly see. They might have been able to hear.
1405. Peter Smith sighting. I think he was on the LHS, at the end of the building/start of the wall. Notice there is no sign of a street light. The people popping up out of the street of little steps are definitely there, but hard to see.
1406. Near the Martin Smith sighting. The person in white is roughly where Martin Smith was. Please note the scabby brown doors on the building between the cars. Folks coming up the street of little steps in a group, so should I walk towards them or just go a bit to one side to get round them?
1407. As far as I can tell, this Smithman's viewpoint when he saw Aoife. The scabby brown door shows it is about 2m to reach Aoife at the top of the street of the little steps.
Now, for all I know, Smithman did a zig-zag for some weird reason. Smithman could have crossed the road again for a Chinese takeaway. Or popped into the Snug Bar or the Cave Bar. Personally, today, I preferred down the street of little steps, to the little beach.
Great pics Shining. Smithman went around to keep away from the light.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 15, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
Two photos looking N up the street of little steps to Primary School street. The way the slopes work, an adult can actually see into Primary School street, but the Smithman sighting was at night, the Smiths were not trying to espy Smithman in the distance, and the street lights work against this.
1408 is about half way from the plaza at the bottom to 25 de Abril
1409 is near the top of the plaza, at the end of Rua Salgeidas.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 03:18:41 PM
Two photos looking N up the street of little steps to Primary School street. The way the slopes work, an adult can actually see into Primary School street, but the Smithman sighting was at night, the Smiths were not trying to espy Smithman in the distance, and the street lights work against this.
1408 is about half way from the plaza at the bottom to 25 de Abril
1409 is near the top of the plaza, at the end of Rua Salgeidas.
But the only streetlight at this junction is on the south side of Rua 25 Abril. at the top of the stepped lane. He walked towards the light.
There were witnesses walking towards him in front of the light. Smithman went around away from the witnesses and the light and passed behind the last witness Aoife. He may not have known she was about to appear at the top of the steps and it would put him off taking that same route. I don't think he knew that route and the church is not far away from that sighting.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Carana on August 15, 2015, 07:04:03 PM
Sadie,
Right click / double click photo; select copy image location; in your post click on image button (below the bold button on left-hand side) and past your photo link in between the two img tags.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 07:11:46 PM
Right click / double click photo; select copy image location; in your post click on image button (below the bold button on left-hand side) and past your photo link in between the two img tags.
Aw, thank you Carana. I will try that but first I must eat and have a snooze
Thanks again
sadie x
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 15, 2015, 07:55:39 PM
But the only streetlight at this junction is on the south side of Rua 25 Abril. at the top of the stepped lane. He walked towards the light.
Try taking this scene to the right just a little, then stick in where you reckon Aoife was, then you need where Smithman was. You need the peeling brown doors. At that point, you have a perfect picture. (Light, Aoife, Smithman.)
Smithman could have walked way from Aoife. Then, she would have seen him from behind. He didn't. He walked towards her.
@Sadie, @John. The files I am posting are quite large for a free forum. If I am pushing on the file limits, the photos can be squeezed. Just let me know what is acceptable.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 11:40:53 PM
Right click / double click photo; select copy image location; in your post click on image button (below the bold button on left-hand side) and past your photo link in between the two img tags.
Thanks ever so Carana but it isn't working for me. Normal photos copy like that for me but not these little ones that expand when you click on the title below.
Dunno why?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 11:46:21 PM
Try taking this scene to the right just a little, then stick in where you reckon Aoife was, then you need where Smithman was. You need the peeling brown doors. At that point, you have a perfect picture. (Light, Aoife, Smithman.)
Smithman could have walked way from Aoife. Then, she would have seen him from behind. He didn't. He walked towards her.
@Sadie, @John. The files I am posting are quite large for a free forum. If I am pushing on the file limits, the photos can be squeezed. Just let me know what is acceptable.
Thank you Shining.
I can repost normal images but not the little ones that expand. And those do not repeat themselves in the Quotes for some reason.
Yep, if it is getting in nobodies way, I would be grateful if you could post ordinary, slightly smaller images.
Otherwise I cannot post my responses. Being slightly dyslexic, I am not very eloquent at times and have trouble explaining myself 8(8-))
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 16, 2015, 01:06:37 AM
Rua das Salgadeiras. Mid Aug 2015. absolute peak of season. Not like early May at all.
The following question was asked in this thread around a couple of pages back.
Is Salgadeiras wide enough for parking, and another car to get by? Yes, but it assumes 1) they drive a compact car and 2) they have half a brain.
1410 East end of Salgadeiras. Dolphin on the left. Starting at this end, it is clear you can get one small car past another with room to spare. Mind you, it is getting crunchy as you head by the tail of the vehicles.
1411 Now you can see why. Someone decided to arrive late and park a 4x4 in the middle of the street.
1412 This is from behind the 4x4 to the west end of the street. Notice the flavour is traditional Portuguese. Blue and white building on the left. Polished up the front. Sod the sides, only the neighbours can see those. The buildings have front walls on the street. The front doors open straight onto the streets. Viva Portugal.
1413 I love this. Dusk is falling. Now the chappie with the VW has fired up his headlights. He parked quite carefully, but as he tries to leave his evening repast, he finds his way is blocked by some dodo who has parked a whacking great 4x4 right in the middle of the street
I should imagine there were some choice words in the Dolphin that night.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 01:35:36 AM
Thankyou for the great photos ShiningInLuz.
IMO yes there is room to park for about 4 cars on wider section near Dolphin, but then the middle section from there to the old barn is not wide enough to park without blocking IMO.
IMO there is less parking on this road than there are car owners (+ customers of the cafe and the Dolphin), also no parking on the stepped lane. Therefore IMO some of the residents maybe park on other roads and if there is not room on Rua 25 then maybe even on Rua Escola, is that a possibility do you think? (IMO smithman was probably an innocent father and child walking from car to home this is why I ask)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 16, 2015, 10:55:59 AM
IMO yes there is room to park for about 4 cars on wider section near Dolphin, but then the middle section from there to the old barn is not wide enough to park without blocking IMO.
IMO there is less parking on this road than there are car owners (+ customers of the cafe and the Dolphin), also no parking on the stepped lane. Therefore IMO some of the residents maybe park on other roads and if there is not room on Rua 25 then maybe even on Rua Escola, is that a possibility do you think? (IMO smithman was probably an innocent father and child walking from car to home this is why I ask)
It is possible, but I don't think it is likely.
In mid Aug Luz is heaving. It is Portugal's holiday month. In early May Luz is quiet, and parking is relatively straight forward. Travessa das Fontinhas has parking. Calheta has parking. 25 de Abril has parking. It is unlikely that someone walked that distance due to parking, but I cannot rule it out.
Why was the child in pyjamas? (in this scenario)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
Madeleine was said to be asleep in bed so what do you think she was wearing?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2015, 06:21:47 PM
She was meant to be in bed and wearing her pyjamas when she was abducted. They say she was abducted. We don't know that is true! Smithman was carrying a child in pyjamas and barefoot. But Smithman's child could have been wearing them for other reasons.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 16, 2015, 10:18:53 PM
1404. Primary School Street, a bit to the north (uphill) from the 1st Smith sighting. Underground car parking, with a sign at the bottom that says Residents Only, but what the heck, this is Portugal, and why waste good parking space on pedestrians?
Please note the street light on the left. That is the nearest to the Peter Smith sighting. There is no other lighting until you get to the bottom.
The little reddy/brown car at the bottom is important. It is basically smack dab on top of Aoife/Smithman.
I can't tell in this one whether there are people coming up the street of little steps. At 10pm on 3 May 2007 no-one could possibly see. They might have been able to hear.
1405. Peter Smith sighting. I think he was on the LHS, at the end of the building/start of the wall. Notice there is no sign of a street light. The people popping up out of the street of little steps are definitely there, but hard to see.
1406. Near the Martin Smith sighting. The person in white is roughly where Martin Smith was. Please note the scabby brown doors on the building between the cars. Folks coming up the street of little steps in a group, so should I walk towards them or just go a bit to one side to get round them?
1407. As far as I can tell, this Smithman's viewpoint when he saw Aoife. The scabby brown door shows it is about 2m to reach Aoife at the top of the street of the little steps.
Now, for all I know, Smithman did a zig-zag for some weird reason. Smithman could have crossed the road again for a Chinese takeaway. Or popped into the Snug Bar or the Cave Bar. Personally, today, I preferred down the street of little steps, to the little beach.
Thanks Shining, for all the photos
Can you tell me please, Which little beach are you referring too?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 10:28:01 PM
IMO everyone (except me) is assuming the concealer (hypothetical of course) was low IQ. So we get such theories as disguising a child in pyjamas as a child in pyjamas of different sleeve length. Baldrick may as well retire he has no chance against such cunningness.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 16, 2015, 10:39:02 PM
IMO everyone (except me) is assuming the concealer (hypothetical of course) was low IQ. So we get such theories as disguising a child in pyjamas as a child in pyjamas of different sleeve length. Baldrick may as well retire he has no chance against such cunningness.
quite.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 16, 2015, 10:47:26 PM
Where else might Smithman have vanished to?
I want to thank Shining and Carana for doing their best to help me repost Shinings small photos, but I am totally unable in, either their small size or their enlargeed size .... and they refuse to copy in quotes. Usually I have no problems reposting photos already on forum.
After some searching, I have found this image which is almost the same as the image that Shining posted that I wanted, so will use that.
Beyond the people on the steps is Rua 25 Abril where Aoife stood, and beyond that Rua d'Escola which Smithman walked down. We do not know for certain if he went west towards the Church, or carried on down these steps. most of us favour going down the steps, I think, but we cant be sure.
Looking at that image, you will see a white tubular gate roughly half way down the steps. It is on a kind of landing.
That metal gate has interested me. If you look hard at an enlarged GE you will see that behind the buildings there is a hidden "walkway" to the right (east)
What a wonderful place to suddenly vanish on that "landing" within the steps. The landing is almost out of sight of everywhere, and once thru that gate, unless I am mistaken, no-one could see Smithman..
Beyond the gate, there appears to be a double string of narrow back yards, running Eastwards. Maybe where dustbins are kept?
They appear to service the back of the S.Eastern properties on R 25 Abril and the back of the properties on the Northern side of R de Calhete including at least one derelict property. Second along, I thiunk.
Look on G E if you dont believe.
Again, it is quite possible that a tunnel from the little beach could have surfaced into one of these back yards, or one of the adjoining premises. Dunno, but it should considered, IMO.
What do you think Pegasus, Anna, Shining, Brietta and the other slueths on here? Come in misty and Vixte if you are about
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 11:16:25 PM
BTW Sadie do you realise that the peeps on the steps in photo are the witnesses? http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith1.jpg
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 16, 2015, 11:28:00 PM
BTW Sadie do you realise that the peeps on the steps in photo are the witnesses? http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith1.jpg
Are you sure of that Pegasus? Have you have been given the correct info ? .... or do you think that someone is trying to shift the time forward
I thought that it was dark when they saw Smithman, yet it is pretty light there.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 11:33:17 PM
Are you sure of that Pegasus? Have you have been given the correct info ? .... or do you think that someone is trying to shift the time forward
I thought that it was dark when they saw Smithman, yet it is pretty light there.
Yes I am sure Sadie, the people on the steps in photo are the witnesses (your left to right) P, A and M, in late May 2007 when they were taken to the location by Amaral's team.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 16, 2015, 11:36:54 PM
Well for what it is worth, I think that Madeleine was taken into the staff apartments just up the road from the Smiths sightings. A scream was heard coming from that direction according to someone on the 3A's
I think that she was half frozen and they put another youngsters top on her over the short sleeved one to keep her warm. She was a valuable commodity if I am correct with my theory.
But I could be wrong. Do you wonder if you could be wrong too?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 16, 2015, 11:38:35 PM
Yes I am sure Sadie, the people on the steps in photo are the witnesses (your left to right) P, A and M, in late May 2007 when they were taken to the location by Amaral's team.
Ah, that explains it. How interesting. Thanks pegasus.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 16, 2015, 11:50:49 PM
Can you tell me please, Which little beach are you referring too?
Beach to the west of the Forteleza (whilst the main beach is to the east.) Thinking back, didn't you post a photo of the palm tree beside the hole in the esplanade, above the 'drain' Sadie is interested in? That's above the little beach. I do hope I have got the attributions right.
Photos of the little beach will be arriving soon.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 11:52:06 PM
Well for what it is worth, I think that Madeleine was taken into the staff apartments just up the road from the Smiths sightings. A scream was heard coming from that direction according to someone on the 3A's
I think that she was half frozen and they put another youngsters top on her over the short sleeved one to keep her warm. She was a valuable commodity if I am correct with my theory. But I could be wrong. Do you wonder if you could be wrong too?
The Amaral theory has Smithman walking straight past Pedras Brancas. BTW all theories which involve openly carrying a visible child through the streets are likely to be incorrect IMO. Smithman certainly existed but he was IMO probably an innocent father with child.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 16, 2015, 11:54:56 PM
Beach to the west of the Forteleza (whilst the main beach is to the east.) Thinking back, didn't you post a photo of the palm tree beside the hole in the esplanade, above the 'drain' Sadie is interested in? That's above the little beach. I do hope I have got the attributions right.
Photos of the little beach will be arriving soon.
Thank you so much. You can arrive at this little beach easier by using the step street, which is what I had thought. Yes that walkway was collapsed above the drain/tunnel. It is slightly west of the fortaleza and has a trenchlike formation of rocks in front going to the sea. I look forward to the beach photos. *&(+(+
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2015, 12:00:09 AM
Only Aoife mentioned long sleeves ... and perhaps buttons on the man's trousers.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 17, 2015, 12:00:47 AM
IMO everyone (except me) is assuming the concealer (hypothetical of course) was low IQ. So we get such theories as disguising a child in pyjamas as a child in pyjamas of different sleeve length. Baldrick may as well retire he has no chance against such cunningness.
I have a working assumption that Smithman is entirely innocent of anything other than carrying his child home.
The problem with my theorem is that I have to explain the pyjamas.
My question about pyjamas was actually to you, not to Pathfinder.
So, Pegasus, why in your theorem was the child in pyjamas? If the man was parking north of the Smithman sighting, then headed south to get home, why was the child in pyjamas? (Please note, I think you have advantage here.)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2015, 12:03:17 AM
The Amaral theory has Smithman walking straight past Pedras Brancas. BTW all theories which involve openly carrying a visible child through the streets are likely to be incorrect IMO. Smithman certainly existed but he was IMO probably an innocent father with child.
Perhaps and perhaps he is the innocent father who still had the PJs in question years after the event.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 01:22:33 AM
I have a working assumption that Smithman is entirely innocent of anything other than carrying his child home.
The problem with my theorem is that I have to explain the pyjamas.
My question about pyjamas was actually to you, not to Pathfinder.
So, Pegasus, why in your theorem was the child in pyjamas? If the man was parking north of the Smithman sighting, then headed south to get home, why was the child in pyjamas? (Please note, I think you have advantage here.)
Why was the girl (the irish family saw) in pyjamas? Yes a very good question, thankyou. I had imagined a father driving home from some trip with a daughter, and parking car/van a little way from home (due to no parking on own street), then walking from car/van to home. But you are right, it is likely in that scenario the child would not be in pyjamas. Hmm.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 17, 2015, 01:39:48 AM
Why was the girl (the irish family saw) in pyjamas? Yes a very good question, thankyou. I had imagined a father driving home from some trip with a daughter, and parking car/van a little way from home (due to no parking on own street), then walking from car/van to home. But you are right, it is likely in that scenario the child would not be in pyjamas. Hmm.
My working theorem is that he just came from a friend a little north of Smithman to home a little south of Smithman. I then have the problem of explaining the pyjamas. Where were her clothes_
If however your bloke simply took her out somewhere for the evening in a car, then clothed, but she went to sleep in pyjamas, then perhaps her clothes were simply in the back of the car, to be picked up next morning.
Still not convinced by the parking idea, but it does have the edge over my theory wrt pyjamas.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 01:44:36 AM
Well for what it is worth, I think that Madeleine was taken into the staff apartments just up the road from the Smiths sightings. A scream was heard coming from that direction according to someone on the 3A's
I think that she was half frozen and they put another youngsters top on her over the short sleeved one to keep her warm. She was a valuable commodity if I am correct with my theory.
But I could be wrong. Do you wonder if you could be wrong too?
Absolutely Sadie, until I know the solution, every individual is assumed innocent. Re the white and blue building there are 3 operations I know of. 1. That weekend at night PJ searched probably a number of apartments there reportedly due to an overheard cry. 2. Early the next week PJ recieves an anonymous call re an overheard conversation and PJ and several Brit police checked an apartment. 3. PJ checked same apartment, and probably other apartments there, a few weeks later. Nothing found on any of those 3 operations.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 01:54:43 AM
My working theorem is that he just came from a friend a little north of Smithman to home a little south of Smithman. I then have the problem of explaining the pyjamas. Where were her clothes_
If however your bloke simply took her out somewhere for the evening in a car, then clothed, but she went to sleep in pyjamas, then perhaps her clothes were simply in the back of the car, to be picked up next morning.
Still not convinced by the parking idea, but it does have the edge over my theory wrt pyjamas.
Returning from a visit just north of irish sighting, or returning by car from a distant visit, why was the girl wearing pyjamas? A good question. If a child falls asleep on a visit, it is in day clothes. All I can think is, do the 3 irish statements say definitely pyjamas? Also, one witness (no statement) said barefoot, so where are her shoes?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Admin on August 17, 2015, 02:13:32 AM
Why was the girl (the irish family saw) in pyjamas? Yes a very good question, thankyou. I had imagined a father driving home from some trip with a daughter, and parking car/van a little way from home (due to no parking on own street), then walking from car/van to home. But you are right, it is likely in that scenario the child would not be in pyjamas. Hmm.
Very possibly she was put in pygamas and taken to a neighours, possibly a grandparent or a babysitters, earlier that evening. What the Smiths might have observed was the father returning with his sleeping daughter.
These things occur often in Spain and Portugal where short distances are involved.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:27:27 AM
When you include a quote in a post, attachments don't show.
How sad. Images used to .
Can that be changed please then we can respond in a satifactory manner to the post. Or if the "attachment" doesn't show in quotes, can only regular images be used?
Thank you for coming back to me.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
Very possibly she was put in pygamas and taken to a neighours, possibly a grandparent or a babysitters, earlier that evening. What the Smiths might have observed was the father returning with his sleeping daughter.
These things occur often in Spain and Portugal where short distances are involved.
Yes that seems to be a good scenario which may explain the Smith sighting. Now to explain why (reportedly) the man did not respond when spoken to. Could the answer to this simply be that he does not speak the foreign language (English) he was addressed in.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 11:39:16 PM
The Daily Mail (cough) reported that Mrs Smith whilst passing asked him if the child was asleep? Why would anyone ask a passing stranger if their kid was asleep or not? The article was trying to convey the man was "rude" by ignoring them, ergo, a possible abductor
Irishman provides dramatic new clues, approx 17th article down on the page, Daily Mail paper edition
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html
Note also how in at least four respects the "report" contradicts the actual police statements
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 07:49:20 PM
" Opposite the junction is an empty villa with a large garden. The wooden door leading to the garden is open. 'It was open at the time and the villa is still empty,' Mr Amaral said. 'My officers spent a lot of time here'. " http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue
To get into this building or its gardens, after passing the young witness A, Smithman could either double back a few metres and go in the little front gate Amaral is talking about, or he could go a few metres down the stepped lane and immediately turn right into the side door or the side garden gate. This is the soonest place he can disappear after passing A.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 18, 2015, 10:38:00 PM
I want to thank Shining and Carana for doing their best to help me repost Shinings small photos, but I am totally unable in, either their small size or their enlargeed size .... and they refuse to copy in quotes. Usually I have no problems reposting photos already on forum.
After some searching, I have found this image which is almost the same as the image that Shining posted that I wanted, so will use that.
Beyond the people on the steps is Rua 25 Abril where Aoife stood, and beyond that Rua d'Escola which Smithman walked down. We do not know for certain if he went west towards the Church, or carried on down these steps. most of us favour going down the steps, I think, but we cant be sure.
Looking at that image, you will see a white tubular gate roughly half way down the steps. It is on a kind of landing.
That metal gate has interested me. If you look hard at an enlarged GE you will see that behind the buildings there is a hidden "walkway" to the right (east)
What a wonderful place to suddenly vanish on that "landing" within the steps. The landing is almost out of sight of everywhere, and once thru that gate, unless I am mistaken, no-one could see Smithman..
Beyond the gate, there appears to be a double string of narrow back yards, running Eastwards. Maybe where dustbins are kept?
They appear to service the back of the S.Eastern properties on R 25 Abril and the back of the properties on the Northern side of R de Calhete including at least one derelict property. Second along, I thiunk.
Look on G E if you dont believe.
Again, it is quite possible that a tunnel from the little beach could have surfaced into one of these back yards, or one of the adjoining premises. Dunno, but it should considered, IMO.
What do you think Pegasus, Anna, Shining, Brietta and the other slueths on here? Come in misty and Vixte if you are about
I had a very quick squiz at this a little earlier this evening.
First the metal tubular gate. It was open so I stuck my head in. It leads east, just for a few yards. At the end, on the south side, there is a door. It looks like someone's front door, rather than a communal access door. In other words, this looks like the way one gets into the building behind Fernando's.
There was no sign of an alleyway. We certainly don't do individual rubbish bins a la UK style. You take your rubbish to a communal bin.
I was a bit hurried this evening. I have been promising to take my grand-daughter out for a particular meal in Luz for a couple of weeks, and obstacles have cropped up everywhere. So I was mainly focussed on her.
I'll go back and have a more detailed look, after the tourist trade settles down a bit.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 11:13:32 PM
Also, in this photo, on left, level with where witnesses P A and M are, is another gate, into a garden. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith1.jpg
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 11:33:18 PM
How late do Fernandos, and Dolphin, stay open?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 19, 2015, 12:07:27 AM
Also, in this photo, on left, level with where witnesses P A and M are, is another gate, into a garden. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith1.jpg
Might be. Don't think so, but I've been wrong before. A re-check is needed.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 19, 2015, 12:26:32 AM
Dolphin on 3 May 2007 we know about, from the PJ Files. The owner (I presume building owner) and proprietor (I presume someone renting the premises from the owner) went to the Millennium Mirage, to play pool. When they got there, they asked why the place was empty, to be told that a small child had gone missing and everyone had gone off to look for her.
Dunno about precise timeline. Everything points to it being open until well after Smithman.
Fernandos. There are two sources. Kelly's Bar just up the road is on file re Smith sighting. The PJ took the receipts between 8pm and 12 midnight for 3 May 2007. These were very slim pickings, but Kelly's bar was open to 12 midnight or later.
Fernando's hours for that time state it should have been open. It is typically Portuguese, and if tractorman aka Euclides Monteiro was in town that night, I would bet a wedge of bills that he was in Fernando's with his friends. Somewhat past Smithman time.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 19, 2015, 12:44:26 AM
I had a very quick squiz at this a little earlier this evening.
First the metal tubular gate. It was open so I stuck my head in. It leads east, just for a few yards. At the end, on the south side, there is a door. It looks like someone's front door, rather than a communal access door. In other words, this looks like the way one gets into the building behind Fernando's.
There was no sign of an alleyway. We certainly don't do individual rubbish bins a la UK style. You take your rubbish to a communal bin.
I was a bit hurried this evening. I have been promising to take my grand-daughter out for a particular meal in Luz for a couple of weeks, and obstacles have cropped up everywhere. So I was mainly focussed on her.
I'll go back and have a more detailed look, after the tourist trade settles down a bit.
You need to look down on this using GEarth .... and zoom right in. Then you will see that there is a row of small back yards behind the houses on the south side of Rua 25 abril and also a row of small back yards to the buildings on the North side of Rua Calhete.
If you dont have dustbins then you must have smelly bags. Do peeps put them out in their back yards?
I wondered if these back yards have gates in them but also rights of way for the neighbouring properties, so that the rubbish could be put out on the street without having to carry it thru the house / shop. In other words are all these back yards linked and does the rubbish from each house get carried along in a westerly direction to that white tubular gate, the landing and then down the steps to Rua Calhete?
Maybe bicycles and prams would be kept in the back yards too.?
It just struck me that the gate is out of sight from most directions and once thru Smithman would vanish
Maybe into the derelict building. maybe into one of the other buildings [or just possibly into the entrance to a tunnel leading underground to the little rocky beach]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 19, 2015, 01:24:29 AM
You need to look down on this using GEarth .... and zoom right in. Then you will see that there is a row of small back yards behind the houses on the south side of Rua 25 abril and also a row of small back yards to the buildings on the North side of Rua Calhete.
If you dont have dustbins then you must have smelly bags. Do peeps put them out in their back yards?
I wondered if these back yards have gates in them but also rights of way for the neighbouring properties, so that the rubbish could be put out on the street without having to carry it thru the house / shop. In other words are all these back yards linked and does the rubbish from each house get carried along in a westerly direction to that white tubular gate, the landing and then down the steps to Rua Calhete?
Maybe bicycles and prams would be kept in the back yards too.?
It just struck me that the gate is out of sight from most directions and once thru Smithman would vanish
Maybe into the derelict building. maybe into one of the other buildings [or just possibly into the entrance to a tunnel leading underground to the little rocky beach]
We have large communal bins unto which we travel once a day to dump our rubbish. Or twice a day.
That gate is the front door, I believe, of a single property.
I think there are back yards, for the simple reason that I cannot see how you stick two different rows of property absolutely back to back.
Like I said, after thinking about some comments, I need to go down again and put eyeballs on the scene.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2015, 07:01:07 AM
Dolphin on 3 May 2007 we know about, from the PJ Files. The owner (I presume building owner) and proprietor (I presume someone renting the premises from the owner) went to the Millennium, to play pool. When they got there, they asked why the place was empty, to be told that a small child had gone missing and everyone had gone off to look for her.
Dunno about precise timeline. Everything points to it being open until well after Smithman.
Fernandos. There are two sources. Kelly's Bar just up the road is on file re Smith sighting. The PJ took the receipts between 8pm and 12 midnight for 3 May 2007. These were very slim pickings, but Kelly's bar was open to 12 midnight or later.
Fernando's hours for that time state it should have been open. It is typically Portuguese, and if tractorman aka Euclides Monteiro was in town that night, I would bet a wedge of bills that he was in Fernando's with his friends. Somewhat past Smithman time.
Strange statement from Maraios from the Dolphin. I wonder if the translation is a good one, because he says the Mirage/Millennium is 'close'. It's actually about as far away as you can get in PdL;
He heard about the disappearance of Madeleine on 3rd May at about 23.00/23.30 when he was in the Mirage bar in P da L, close to the restaurant where he works. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ADRIAAN_MARAIOS.htm
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 12:14:59 PM
Thanks ShiningInLuz. The bar/cafe name has changed since then so I use an old name.
If smithman goes down the stepped lane all the way to Rua Calheta he will be seen by customers outside Calheta bar, customers inside Calheta bar, and by diners looking out from Dolphin.
A little less visible is if he goes down stepped lane and turns right on R Salgadeiras he will be seen only by customers outside (not inside) the Calheta bar, and will not be seen by customers looking out from Dolphin.
This is true whether he is a concealor, or an innocent father with child (which is my opinion).
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 12:17:50 AM
It is only visible to the last 2 or 3 eastern metres of R. Salgedeiras and then it is at right angles to the direction most people would be walking and looking. It is also raised above normal eye viewing level unless mounting those steps.
I dont think thta people coming out of The Dolphin, nor walking along R. Calheta would be able to see up as far as that gate. It is a tight almost blind corner and also there appears to be the head of a tree obscuring the view.
Unless the house on the NE corner of R Salgedeiras has windows that were not curtained, then I think that metal gate is completely unoverlooked. A good place to vanish.
Even if there were windows on the side of the corner house, it seems likely to me that particularly after dark the curtains would be closed with people walking straight by and able to possibly peer in.
It would be good if you could have another look Shining .... and confirm if possible that the gate is the front door to a house.
Where do you think that the people who have those back yards would take their rubbish?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 12:29:07 AM
It is only visible to the last 2 or 3 eastern metres of R. Salgedeiras and then it is at right angles to the direction most people would be walking and looking. It is also raised above normal eye viewing level unless mounting those steps.
I dont think thta people coming out of The Dolphin, nor walking along R. Calheta would be able to see up as far as that gate. It is a tight almost blind corner and also there appears to be the head of a tree obscuring the view.
Unless the house on the NE corner of R Salgedeiras has windows that were not curtained, then I think that metal gate is completely unoverlooked. A good place to vanish.
Even if there were windows on the side of the corner house, it seems likely to me that particularly after dark the curtains would be closed with people walking straight by and able to possibly peer in.
It would be good if you could have another look Shining .... and confirm if possible that the gate is the front door to a house.
Where do you think that the people who have those back yards would take their rubbish?
I cant see any lighting at the bottom of the steps that would reach that gate.
THe only light that I can see is the mighty one on R 25 Abril .... and it would be in deep shadow from that if I am right.
A great place to vanish, but pronbably not the right one !
Who knows ?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2015, 01:10:09 AM
Re streetlights, here is night view looking south from Rua Escola into stepped lane. Notice the bright lights in distance IMO these are at the Dolphin. However, Smithman could have gone down the stepped lane but totally avoided those bright lights and the Dolphin, by simply terminating journey on the steps, or by turning right on Rua Salg. (photo by Jeanne).
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2015, 01:17:44 AM
Night view from half way down the stepped lane, looking west into Rua Salg (photo by Jeanne)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 01:28:57 AM
Night view from half way down the stepped lane, looking west into Rua Salg (photo by Jeanne)
Thanks Pegasus. When looking at the second photo, it looks bright at the western end of R Salg, but pretty dark at the eastern end.
The gate was nearer the eastern end and it was deeply set back around the corner, so no light from those street lamps would illuminate it, I would think.
It is completely in the shadow as well from the big street lamp at the top of the steps.
So from both those directions it is in a black spot. Dont think that there are any other street lamps are there?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2015, 01:34:10 AM
Thanks Pegasus. When looking at the second photo, it looks bright at the western end of R Salg, but pretty dark at the eastern end.
The gate was nearer the eastern end and it was deeply set back around the corner, so no light from those street lamps would illuminate it, I would think.
It is completely in the shadow as well from the big street lamp at the top of the steps.
So from both those directions it is in a black spot. Dont think that there are any other street lamps are there?
On the top section of the stepped lane, there is a streetlight at junction of stepped lane and Rua 25, and IMO a streetlight near junction of stepped lane with R.Salg, I don't see any streetlights in between those two.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 09:39:49 AM
On the top section of the stepped lane, there is a streetlight at junction of stepped lane and Rua 25, and IMO a streetlight near junction of stepped lane with R.Salg, I don't see any streetlights in between those two.
Yep, I have spotted those two, but I think the gate is slightly around the corner fron each, so no direct illumination at all.. I guess a little light might bounce off the walls re the bottom light, but as far as the top light is concerned, I think that the gate is in deep shadow.
The bottom light is not only around the corner but it is at a much lower down than the gate, and as it has a "cap" on the top of it, I wonder if any light would get to the height of the gate. It also appears to be a rather weak type of light, but I may be wrong on that one.
So: 1) Deep shadow from powerful light at the step tops [R.25 Abril] 2) ?weak lamp at bottom of all the steps with cap on the top restricting illumination upwards. The gate is upwards.. Three flights, I think, but it is difficult only having GEarth to guide me. 3) Again in shadow from the lower lamp because it is set around the corner and to receive ANY light from that ?weak lamp. 4) The light would have to bounce off several walls to reach the gate corner. 5) Anyone looking up those steps would have their eyesight limited due to looking in the general direction of the BIG street light at the top of the steps. IMO.
Maybe, maybe not, a little refliected illumination from lower lamp, but none from upper lamp
I think that gate is in a very dark spot. Would be good if Shining could go and look after dark, especially when viewing from below immediately after leaving the brighter lights of R Calhete. The contrast and the effect on the eyes of the massive light at the top of the steps.
And Smithman only had to take one step sideways, to the left, as he descended the steps to be completely hidden. Hidden in plain sight, as THEY say.
But being in a dark spot doesn't make it the final piece of the route for Smithman, but is enough IMO to raise our antennaes
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 20, 2015, 10:07:09 AM
Re streetlights, here is night view looking south from Rua Escola into stepped lane. Notice the bright lights in distance IMO these are at the Dolphin. However, Smithman could have gone down the stepped lane but totally avoided those bright lights and the Dolphin, by simply terminating journey on the steps, or by turning right on Rua Salg. (photo by Jeanne).
The bright lights would put me off going that narrow way and he would have to know that route to use it. I don't think he did know it. He could cross the road on the way to the church if necessary.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 10:14:45 AM
The bright lights would put me off going that way and he would have to know that route to use it. I don't think he did know it.
When he was with Aoife, he was bathed in the brightest light in Luz, I would guess. And then he would descend into lesser light. So you are WRONG on that Pfinder
Your answer is based on a bigotted viewpoint that Gerry is Smithman Try opening your mind and be less vindictive please.... jumping to conclusions without any reason !
The fact that someone did know that route is it seems, an indication that the abductor was local.... or had local knowledge.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 20, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
I think the abductor, knowing well PdL, and walking with Madeleine in arms, reached the zone of Rua da Calheta in yellow in the Google picture.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 20, 2015, 04:57:10 PM
When he was with Aoife, he was bathed in the brightest light in Luz, I would guess. And then he would descend into lesser light. So you are WRONG on that Pfinder
Your answer is based on a bigotted viewpoint that Gerry is Smithman Try opening your mind and be less vindictive please.... jumping to conclusions without any reason !
The fact that someone did know that route is it seems, an indication that the abductor was local.... or had local knowledge.
You are wrong and we will see who he is.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 21, 2015, 12:34:57 AM
I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.
There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps. It is just to the rear of the house at the top. It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house. It is also access to the rear garden.
The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high. The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.
So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.
On an alleyway between the properties on the east side. I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps. If one exists, it starts further east.
What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door. It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.
It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta. I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here. The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.
However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.
That brings us to lighting. Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.
First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here. Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's. Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...
Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured. People came and people went. They were on holiday. No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 21, 2015, 09:53:30 AM
I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.
There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps. It is just to the rear of the house at the top. It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house. It is also access to the rear garden.
The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high. The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.
So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.
On an alleyway between the properties on the east side. I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps. If one exists, it starts further east.
What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door. It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.
It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta. I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here. The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.
However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.
That brings us to lighting. Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.
First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here. Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's. Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...
Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured. People came and people went. They were on holiday. No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.
Well done Shining 8((()*/
Please dont get picked up by the PJ !
Garage seems very interesting. From the days of donkeys and paniers, I wonder? Some as in Morocco.
Some observations but being pushed by the family today. Will come back later
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 21, 2015, 11:53:07 PM
I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.
There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps. It is just to the rear of the house at the top. It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house. It is also access to the rear garden.
The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high. The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.
So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.
I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.
On an alleyway between the properties on the east side. I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps. If one exists, it starts further east.
What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door. It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.
It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta. I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here. The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.
However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.
I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining. Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete? Just another name for it?
On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??
That brings us to lighting. Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.
First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here. Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's. Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...
I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE. The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image. Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ... and the lampost on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street appeared to only have wires on top. No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.
Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant . This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.
I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.
Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured. People came and people went. They were on holiday. No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.
Well you have done a great job Shining. With that lamp on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.
Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? @)(++(* 8(>((
No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.
I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining. Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete? Just another name for it?
On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??
GE Street Scene I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE. The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image. Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ... and the lampost (on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street) appeared to only have wires on top. No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.
Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant . This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.
I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.
Well you have done a great job Shining. With that lamp shining on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.
Nothing like having someone on the ground, actually there , is there? Thanks for all your help.
Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? @)(++(* 8(>((
No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 09:06:27 AM
I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.
I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining. Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete? Just another name for it?
On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??
I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE. The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image. Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ... and the lampost on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street appeared to only have wires on top. No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.
Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant . This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.
I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.
Well you have done a great job Shining. With that lamp on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.
Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? @)(++(* 8(>((
No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 8((()*/
Fernando's = Café Calhete = Bar Calhete. Different people use different names for it here. I happen to use Fernando's, because it makes clear that it is typically Portuguese, indeed it's the main typically Portuguese bar in Luz.
The garage door is on the same side as the white tubular metal gate, a couple of metres further up and at right angles to it. It is lit to much the same extent as the white gate.
I doubt anyone went in the garage door carrying a child. That would look unusual. Going in the white gate with a child would look totally normal i.e. non-memorable.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 01:58:09 PM
But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz? In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 02:21:50 PM
But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz? In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).
If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?
Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.
So where did he go?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 02:36:01 PM
If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?
Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.
So where did he go?
There are many photos of calheta bar with outdoor tables. If any customers was sitting at those tables that evening, they would see the man as soon as he reached the junction of stepped lane and Rua Salg, so one possibility is, he did not get that far. (BTW this is an innocent father with child IMO)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 02:37:42 PM
But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz? In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).
Fernando's is considered a sports bar, which simply means it has a large screen TV and either 1 or 2 pool tables. At 10pm in early May most Portuguese people think it is cold, therefore I would expect them to be inside.
The law prohibiting smoking indoors in bars/restaurants (except if approved air extractors are fitted) was introduced in 1 Jan 2008, so even if there was a lot of smokers, they would probably be indoors.
Out front (ditto Kelly's) we are probably talking simply about those coming and going to their cars or to walk home.
But of course, I wasn't there on 3 May, so I can't be certain.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 02:43:28 PM
If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?
Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.
So where did he go?
I am currently developing a blog post on this. It needs a fair bit of polish, so it may be a while before publication.
However, I would guesstimate that around 90% of Portuguese people equate Smithman with GM. It's much more complex than that, but the is the core issue.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 03:11:04 PM
Fernando's is considered a sports bar, which simply means it has a large screen TV and either 1 or 2 pool tables. At 10pm in early May most Portuguese people think it is cold, therefore I would expect them to be inside.
The law prohibiting smoking indoors in bars/restaurants (except if approved air extractors are fitted) was introduced in 1 Jan 2008, so even if there was a lot of smokers, they would probably be indoors.
Out front (ditto Kelly's) we are probably talking simply about those coming and going to their cars or to walk home.
But of course, I wasn't there on 3 May, so I can't be certain.
IMO it is likely the outdoor tables at calheta cafe would still be out at 10pm. It wasn't that cold - for example at 10pm there were people who chose to be eating in the outdoor area of Tapas restaurant, and others tourists who chose to be eating outside on their balcony.
Also the lower part of stepped lane is visible from inside Dolphin.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 04:29:23 PM
IMO it is likely the outdoor tables at calheta cafe would still be out at 10pm. It wasn't that cold - for example at 10pm there were people who chose to be eating in the outdoor area of Tapas restaurant, and others tourists who chose to be eating outside on their balcony.
Also the lower part of stepped lane is visible from inside Dolphin.
The tables were probably out, but the question is, were the people?
Fernando's is typical Portuguese, and for that reason it is a haunt of the Portuguese. The ex-pats prefer 'Irish' Kelly's, The 'English' Bull, the Cave Bar, the Mirage etc.
So the audience of Fernando's is mainly Portuguese. And to Portuguese people 3 May at 10pm is cold. Brits may well eat in the Tapas Bar to this time, or on their balconies. Portuguese go indoors where it is warm, and leave the mad dogs and Englishmen to their adventures.
The lower part of the lane is viewable from the Dolphin. Question, because I'm missing some information on my blog post. The Smith's made their statements on 26 May. When did the description from these first enter the public domain?
Why would anyone in the Dolphin remember something that happened weeks ago, and that seemed perfectly unremarkable at the time?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 04:36:01 PM
The tables were probably out, but the question is, were the people?
Fernando's is typical Portuguese, and for that reason it is a haunt of the Portuguese. The ex-pats prefer 'Irish' Kelly's, The 'English' Bull, the Cave Bar, the Mirage etc.
So the audience of Fernando's is mainly Portuguese. And to Portuguese people 3 May at 10pm is cold. Brits may well eat in the Tapas Bar to this time, or on their balconies. Portuguese go indoors where it is warm, and leave the mad dogs and Englishmen to their adventures.
The lower part of the lane is viewable from the Dolphin. Question, because I'm missing some information on my blog post. The Smith's made their statements on 26 May. When did the description from these first enter the public domain?
Why would anyone in the Dolphin remember something that happened weeks ago, and that seemed perfectly unremarkable at the time?
Just off the top of my head so may be wrong.
Didn't the Smiths make their initial statement to An Garda Síochána the day after Murat was constituted arguido approximately a fortnight after the third. Their statements of the 26th were on their return to Portugal in order to make them in person and reconstitute the scene.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 22, 2015, 04:51:33 PM
Of course people inside or outside, on a table, eating, drinking and chatting, not knowing of Madeleine abduction at the time, were not expecting (giving no attention) to store in memory for later recall an unremarkable simple fact like a man carrying a child in arms. There is a difference between looking and seeing. If you are attending eating, drinking and chatting you may lose other events.See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY)
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
Didn't the Smiths make their initial statement to An Garda Síochána the day after Murat was constituted arguido approximately a fortnight after the third. Their statements of the 26th were on their return to Portugal in order to make them in person and reconstitute the scene.
Yes it was about two weeks later when MS phoned PJ, and PJ requested he make a statement to Garda. (It's a bit ambiguous whether this is two weeks after 3 May, or 2 weeks after 9 May). BTW not meaning to divert people but another interesting date is: when did this fact (that the irish family had spoken to police) first become known to people other than the police and witnesses? It was 6th June 2007.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 22, 2015, 04:55:36 PM
As i have said think the abductor went down by the stair ("escandinhas") and turn right in Rua das Salgadeiras. I think the abductor, knowing well PdL, and walking with Madeleine in arms, reached the zone of Rua da Calheta in yellow in the Google picture.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 04:59:41 PM
As i have said think the abductor went down by the stair ("escandinhas") and turn right in Rua das Salgadeiras. I think the abductor, knowing well PdL, and walking with Madeleine in arms, reached the zone of Rua da Calheta in yellow in the Google picture.
right on Rua Salg, left at end along Fontainhas, takes you straight to a shore access, and a circular outlet is exactly there. But there are other places before that.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 05:03:19 PM
Didn't the Smiths make their initial statement to An Garda Síochána the day after Murat was constituted arguido approximately a fortnight after the third. Their statements of the 26th were on their return to Portugal in order to make them in person and reconstitute the scene.
The answer to this is I don't know.
What I'm looking for is when the general public knew about the meeting and the description of Smithman. In brief, there was no-one suspicious to dob in before that. Tannerman was going the other way, so why make a connection?
I see Pegasus has posted this was 6 June. Thanks you Pegasus. So to the general public, Smithman did not enter consciousness for a month.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
What I'm looking for is when the general public knew about the meeting and the description of Smithman. In brief, there was no-one suspicious to dob in before that. Tannerman was going the other way, so why make a connection?
I see Pegasus has posted this was 6 June. Thanks you Pegasus. So to the general public, Smithman did not enter consciousness for a month.
Yes the 6th June, however it was in an obscure regional Irish paper, so of course hundreds of miles east one wouldn't have known about it (unless one happened to have some kind of special remote-newspaper-reading ability).
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 22, 2015, 05:18:28 PM
And you could reach West zone of Rua da Calheta (if you know the location) crossing the SY searched area of 2014. It was easy following the route in the map. Did you remember a press news of a woman seeing a man with a child entering that zone?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 05:22:26 PM
IMO it is likely the outdoor tables at calheta cafe would still be out at 10pm. It wasn't that cold - for example at 10pm there were people who chose to be eating in the outdoor area of Tapas restaurant, and others tourists who chose to be eating outside on their balcony.
Also the lower part of stepped lane is visible from inside Dolphin.
Are you sure that any part of the stepped lane would be visible from the Dolphin Shining, cos looking on GE, unless I am mistaken, it doesn't have any windows on its northern side
And I think that the angle is too acute for anyone in the Dolphin, on its western soz, eastern face, to see up that stepped Lane with the thickness of window frames in the way . There also appears to be a tree is the way, altho I take you point about that it might have been smaller in 2007.
I suppose that i could check that on GE in 2007. One GE, in 2007, is hopeless, the other on the 22nd IIRC is very clear.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
And you could reach West zone of Rua da Calheta (if you know the location) crossing the SY searched area of 2014. It was easy following the route in the map. Did you remember a press news of a woman seeing a man with a child entering that zone?
Good to see you back, Heri .... and to have your ideas too. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 05:57:32 PM
And you could reach West zone of Rua da Calheta (if you know the location) crossing the SY searched area of 2014. It was easy following the route in the map. Did you remember a press news of a woman seeing a man with a child entering that zone?
The man she saw walking towards the SY wasteland area carrying a child, was reportedly (newspaper) talking native english on his mobile phone when he passed the witness.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 06:18:06 PM
Are you sure that any part of the stepped lane qwould be visible from the Dolphin Shining, cos looking on GE, unless I am mistaken, it doesn't have any windows on its northern side
And I think that the angle is too acute for anyone in the Dolphin, on its western face, to see up that steppped Lane with the thidkness of window frames in the way . There also appears to be a tree is the way, altho I take you point about that it might have been smaller in 2007.
I suppose that i could check that on GE in 2007. One GE in 2007 is hopeless, the other on the 22nd IIRC is very clear.
Pegasus was asking about the southern part of the street of little steps. That bit goes all the way down to Calheta and is on the east side of the Dolphin, where its front door is.
The north side of the Dolphin is on Salgeidas, and seems to be used for storage.
Time to dig out more pics.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 22, 2015, 06:19:02 PM
Pegasus, i can not find the link to the press news. Could you provided it? And a question: have any of you asked yourselves why SY searched the area for the small hill?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 06:30:43 PM
Pegasus, i can not find the link to the press news. Could you provided it? And a question: have any of you asked yourselves why SY searched the area for the small hill?
The press report of a female brit tourist witnessing a man talking english on phone while carrying child is here but the text is not www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/telefonemas-tramam-raptores-de-maddie But here is a translation http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers.html The report suggests IMO that the sighting by this woman was part of the evidence submitted to a portuguese judge to justify a the issuing of the search warrant for this wasteland area
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 06:36:57 PM
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 22, 2015, 06:43:11 PM
Thanks Pegasus. Well, enough for me. The case seems to be trapped between those who are entitled to investigate but not too much interested in solving the case (PJ/PGR) and those who are interested in solving the case but are not entitled to investigate (SY and other people).
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 22, 2015, 07:40:04 PM
All photos dated 14 Aug 2015 around 8:15pm. All photos as per how good or how bad I took them at the time. No retouching.
1414 Plaza from Dolphin east to Fernando's, Look, and Kelly's. A hot August night, tables out for al fresco. I think I can seen people outside Kelly's, but Kelly's does not serve food.
1415 Same spot to south of the street of little steps. Dolphin (entrance) on the right. Please note which way the diners beside the window are facing. PS That's the dodgy phone calls box on the left.
1416 A family coming down the street of little steps. Dolphin to the left. Fernando's to the right. Woman in somewhat skimpy white outfit coming out the front door of Fernando's. The big screen TV can be seen through the window.
1417 Heaving with cars. Heaving with people. It definitely looks like people outside Kelly's. That happens to be where they smoke nowadays, but it also happens to get volcano hot in Kelly's if there is a crowd in.
1418 This is at the very south end of the street of little steps. It's Rua Calheta. The Dolphin is to the left. Fernando's is to the right. Line of vision shows an adult can see from the very bottom right up into Primary School Street.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 07:49:53 PM
Thanks Pegasus. Well, enough for me. The case seems to be trapped between those who are entitled to investigate but not too much interested in solving the case (PJ/PGR) and those who are interested in solving the case but are not entitled to investigate (SY and other people).
My opinion is the Smith sighting is unlikely to be relevant, not to an abduction scenario, and not to a concealment scenario. And in both scenarios it would be ignoring the sleeve length seen by young witness A. It would not be the only case in which investigators have led themselves astray, by insistence on a particular sighting being relevant.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 11:50:10 PM
All photos dated 14 Aug 2015 around 8:15pm. All photos as per how good or how bad I took them at the time. No retouching.
1414 Plaza from Dolphin east to Fernando's, Look, and Kelly's. A hot August night, tables out for al fresco. I think I can seen people outside Kelly's, but Kelly's does not serve food.
1415 Same spot to south of the street of little steps. Dolphin (entrance) on the right. Please note which way the diners beside the window are facing. PS That's the dodgy phone calls box on the left.
1416 A family coming down the street of little steps. Dolphin to the left. Fernando's to the right. Woman in somewhat skimpy white outfit coming out the front door of Fernando's. The big screen TV can be seen through the window.
1417 Heaving with cars. Heaving with people. It definitely looks like people outside Kelly's. That happens to be where they smoke nowadays, but it also happens to get volcano hot in Kelly's if there is a crowd in.
1418 This is at the very south end of the street of little steps. It's Rua Calheta. The Dolphin is to the left. Fernando's is to the right. Line of vision shows an adult can see from the very bottom right up into Primary School Street.
Great photos again Shining. Thanks. Am very frustrated that they have to be left on the page before. Not at all satisfactory imo.
Looking at image 1416 and at GE dated 16/22/2007 [just 6 weeks after Madeleine vanished]
1. The large tree outside Fernandos was either none existant or more likely, I think, just a small tree. Difficult to be sure from GE , but it wasn't big anyhow.
2. On the extreme NE corner of the grounds of The Dolphin Restaurant, we can see on GE 16/22/2007 that there was a very tall tree there. We can tell that it is very tall by the length of its shadow.
3. From The Dolphin. this very tall tree was unlikely to have blocked the view of the gate that initially interested me, unless it was VERY Gusty.
4. However, I believe that it would have prevented the view of Smithman coming down the stepped street if he kept to the middle or more to the right as he descended.
5. It also looks as tho he could have turned right [west] into Rua Salgadeiras without anyone seeing him at the Dolphin.
6. Had he carried on past Rua Salgadeiras, I am not convinced that people looking through the side [eastern facing ] windows of the Dolphin would have been able to see him, cos even if you press your face to the glass you cannot see anyone so close to the side and below. Window frames etc get in the way.
I am quite prepared to accept that people might not be sitting out at Fenandos on what would be considered a cool blustery evening in PdL.
So it seems to me that the most likely way he went ***if he came down the steps, is either 1. right [west] along Rua Salg, 2. into a house en route down 3. or just possibly, but less likely, he might have come straight past The Dolphin before presumably turning west along the "sea front" 4. It seems very unlikely that he would have turned left [east] in front of Fernandos, Kellys etc.... where all the action was likely to be.
Wonder if SY are on to something ? Cos that is the general area that they searched
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 01:50:14 AM
But what if the cafe was open and there there were customers sitting outside? Can you help us with the temperature Sadie?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on August 23, 2015, 09:41:48 AM
To undersatnd when one talk about "furto" which escalates into abduction:
No Código Penal português, dentro do capítulo dos crimes contra a propriedade, dois artigos estabelecem a diferença penalizando diferentemente cada uma das duas situações.
O artigo 203.º, sob a epígrafe "Furto", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:
«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair coisa móvel alheia, é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos ou com pena de multa.
2 - A tentativa é punível.
3 - O procedimento criminal depende de queixa.»
O artigo 210.º, sob a epígrafe "Roubo", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:
«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair, ou constranger a que lhe seja entregue, coisa móvel alheia, por meio de violência contra uma pessoa, de ameaça com perigo iminente para a vida ou para a integridade física, ou pondo-a na impossibilidade de resistir, é punido com pena de prisão de um a oito anos.
2 - A pena é a de prisão de três a quinze anos, se:
a) Qualquer dos agentes produzir perigo para a vida da vítima ou lhe infligir, pelo menos por negligência, ofensa à integridade física grave; ou
b) Se verificarem, singular ou cumulativamente, quaisquer requisitos referidos nos n.os 1 e 2 do artigo 204.º, sendo correspondentemente aplicável o disposto no n.º 4 do mesmo artigo.
3 - Se do facto resultar a morte de outra pessoa, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de oito a dezasseis anos.»
Em resumo, no roubo há uma subtração com constrangimento ou violência; no furto a subtração não comporta constrangimento ou violência.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 23, 2015, 12:11:10 PM
1419 Looking east on Calheta towards the Dolphin on the left. You can just pick out some lights on the Dolphin/Africa Craft Shop. The next street light is about 10m behind me, so lighting here is sparse.
1420 From a little further west on Calheta looking to the west. The next street light is at the junction with Travessa da Fontinha. That is where the man in red is appearing behind a car.
This area is typified by buildings with no space between them and front doors opening directly onto the street. Typically Portuguese.
Above the road sign on the left, the name of the lane is the only clue that a little beach exists - Travessa da Prainha.
1421. View from near the top of Travessa da Prainha to the south. I was near the bottom end of the first house on the lane. There is no street light in the lane. Check Streetview and it shows the one on Calheta is now around 12m behind me to my left. The two people at the bottom are where the cobbles stop and baked earth takes over.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 02:19:32 PM
To undersatnd when one talk about "furto" which escalates into abduction:
No Código Penal português, dentro do capítulo dos crimes contra a propriedade, dois artigos estabelecem a diferença penalizando diferentemente cada uma das duas situações.
O artigo 203.º, sob a epígrafe "Furto", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:
«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair coisa móvel alheia, é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos ou com pena de multa.
2 - A tentativa é punível.
3 - O procedimento criminal depende de queixa.»
O artigo 210.º, sob a epígrafe "Roubo", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:
«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair, ou constranger a que lhe seja entregue, coisa móvel alheia, por meio de violência contra uma pessoa, de ameaça com perigo iminente para a vida ou para a integridade física, ou pondo-a na impossibilidade de resistir, é punido com pena de prisão de um a oito anos.
2 - A pena é a de prisão de três a quinze anos, se:
a) Qualquer dos agentes produzir perigo para a vida da vítima ou lhe infligir, pelo menos por negligência, ofensa à integridade física grave; ou
b) Se verificarem, singular ou cumulativamente, quaisquer requisitos referidos nos n.os 1 e 2 do artigo 204.º, sendo correspondentemente aplicável o disposto no n.º 4 do mesmo artigo.
3 - Se do facto resultar a morte de outra pessoa, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de oito a dezasseis anos.»
Em resumo, no roubo há uma subtração com constrangimento ou violência; no furto a subtração não comporta constrangimento ou violência.
Google translate
The Portuguese Penal Code, within the chapter of crimes against property, two articles establish the difference penalizing differently each of the two situations.
Article 203, entitled "Theft", gives the following definition with the following scheme:
«1 - Whoever, with intent of unlawful appropriation for yourself or someone else, subtract others movable, shall be punished with imprisonment up to three years or a fine.
2 - The attempt is punishable.
3 - Criminal proceedings on a complaint '.
Article 210, entitled "Theft", gives the following definition with the following scheme:
«1 - Who with unlawful intent to appropriate for himself or for another person, subtract, or constrain it delivered to you, others movable, by means of violence against a person, threatened with imminent danger to life or physical integrity or putting it impossible to resist, shall be punished with imprisonment from one to eight years.
2 - The penalty is imprisonment of three to fifteen years if:
a) Any of the agents produce danger to the victim's life or inflict at least negligently serious offense to physical integrity; or
b) If true, singularly or cumulatively, any requirements referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 204, and accordingly the provisions in paragraph 4 of that Article.
3 - If the act results in the death of another person, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment from eight to sixteen years. "
In short, the theft there is a subtraction with constraint or violence; the theft subtraction does not involve coercion or violence.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 07:06:18 PM
1419 Looking east on Calheta towards the Dolphin on the left. You can just pick out some lights on the Dolphin/Africa Craft Shop. The next street light is about 10m behind me, so lighting here is sparse.
1420 From a little further west on Calheta looking to the west. The next street light is at the junction with Travessa da Fontinha. That is where the man in red is appearing behind a car.
This area is typified by buildings with no space between them and front doors opening directly onto the street. Typically Portuguese.
Above the road sign on the left, the name of the lane is the only clue that a little beach exists - Travessa da Prainha.
1421. View from near the top of Travessa da Prainha to the south. I was near the bottom end of the first house on the lane. There is no street light in the lane. Check Streetview and it shows the one on Calheta is now around 12m behind me to my left. The two people at the bottom are where the cobbles stop and baked earth takes over.
Rather off-topic, but I noticed when I tilted my computer screen your Smithman avi became darker & looked far more Portuguese. The shadowing totally changed his appearance.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 23, 2015, 07:53:48 PM
Rather off-topic, but I noticed when I tilted my computer screen your Smithman avi became darker & looked far more Portuguese. The shadowing totally changed his appearance.
I picked the 'Portuguese' Smithman 'cos I think he might well be Portuguese.
Might be right, might be wrong. Nice spot.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 01:15:15 AM
Who commissioned the Portuguese version, do you know? When darkened, it resembles a young Hewlett to me.
Do we know where either of them came from?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 25, 2015, 03:38:28 PM
1422. This a bit fuzzy, but it shows the panorama fairly well. The was from the bottom of the Lane of the Little Beach, looking east.
Top left, the white building is the Bull, which has a pub downstairs and a restaurant upstairs. Next is Luz church. Then the rest of the sweep is the Fortaleza. The easiest way to get to the 'hole' is to get down onto the little beach here, and walk along to the entrance, but of course, that requires local knowledge.
Along the top, the path is flat and wide. At 10pm on 3 May, the sun was down, the moon had not risen, and with the lack of lights here, the main source would have been any starlight. Despite that, there would have been enough light because the going is so easy.
1423. Underneath the Fortaleza, looking at the spot in Anna's photo posted earlier. That had a tree and a large hole in the promenade surface. Now there is a tree stump with a repaired promenade. Presumably the tree roots were causing damage below.
1424. More or less beside the tree stump, looking north. This little alleyway runs up to beside the Bull. Although it is an easy path now, back in the day it was apparently crumbling in ill-repair and overgrown with shrubbery. Plus it was a risky route for Smithman.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 07:55:14 PM
1422. This a bit fuzzy, but it shows the panorama fairly well. The was from the bottom of the Lane of the Little Beach, looking east.
Top left, the white building is the Bull, which has a pub downstairs and a restaurant upstairs. Next is Luz church. Then the rest of the sweep is the Fortaleza. The easiest way to get to the 'hole' is to get down onto the little beach here, and walk along to the entrance, but of course, that requires local knowledge.
Along the top, the path is flat and wide. At 10pm on 3 May, the sun was down, the moon had not risen, and with the lack of lights here, the main source would have been any starlight. Despite that, there would have been enough light because the going is so easy.
1423. Underneath the Fortaleza, looking at the spot in Anna's photo posted earlier. That had a tree and a large hole in the promenade surface. Now there is a tree stump with a repaired promenade. Presumably the tree roots were causing damage below.
1424. More or less beside the tree stump, looking north. This little alleyway runs up to beside the Bull. Although it is an easy path now, back in the day it was apparently crumbling in ill-repair and overgrown with shrubbery. Plus it was a risky route for Smithman.
1423.
The blue bin shows the spot where the tunnel /cave came out [below and adjoining the bin]. See the white bin in the same place. I cant uderstand why thta bin stands there? .... no reason for it that I can see.
This tunnel was in a geographical fault with two mega-massive rocks on either side. Both were tilted over [rolled over by ground movement, I think]
Fortazela terrace and restaurant behind.
Thanks again for the photos Shining. You are doing a great job.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 27, 2015, 04:25:40 PM
1425 From the steps beside the little promenade looking east towards the 'cliff' south of the Fortaleza.
First, one blue bin. @Sadie. It's for ice lolly wrappers, fag packets, soiled nappies, dog poo and that type of thing, because the less that is deposited on the beach, the better. The blue bin is a reference point. Next to it is the channel in the rock. Then serrated rocks. Just above the bin, the white blob is a rowing boat. It is not normal to have a rowing boat here, but this was mid-August 2015. The rowing boat is 'secured' by taking the oars away. The background shows the drop or 'cliff' that exists between the rocks to the south of the Fortaleza and the small beach.
1426 From the rocks to the covered terrace of the Fortaleza. If you expand this image, you should be able to see more than one person dining. The tables are side-on, which means anyone spotting me did it out of their peripheral vision.
1427 The serrated rocks of 1425 are back in view. This is from further down the rocks, looking at the open terrace of the Fortaleza. I can't tell if there was anyone out in mid August, but I doubt many were at 10pm on 3 May 2007. You can tell from this 2015 photo that there is a street light at the north end of the lane that runs up to the rear of the Bull. I have little idea if this existed on 3 May 2007, though Google Earth suggests it did. The important point is it is a long way away.
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Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 27, 2015, 04:36:12 PM
The blue bin shows the spot where the tunnel /cave came out [below and adjoining the bin]. See the white bin in the same place. I cant understand why that bin stands there? .... no reason for it that I can see.
It is attached to a post Sadie. You put rubbish in it!! @)(++(*
Shining. Is there still a small hole for storm water to get out of the cave? That is the sort of place a small child could have been secreted yet SY have never had it opened up...that's bonkers imo.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 05:07:34 PM
It is attached to a post Sadie. You put rubbish in it!! @)(++(*
Shining. Is there still a small hole for storm water to get out of the cave? That is the sort of place a small child could have been secreted yet SY have never had it opened up...that's bonkers imo.
Yes, secured to a post so it does not get blown over by wind. IMO it's possible that is a stream outlet usually dry which flows only after heavy rain, carrying branches.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2015, 12:54:51 AM
It is attached to a post Sadie. You put rubbish in it!! @)(++(*
Shining. Is there still a small hole for storm water to get out of the cave? That is the sort of place a small child could have been secreted yet SY have never had it opened up...that's bonkers imo.
Funny place for a rubbish bin. No-one would go up there to take rubbish, imo. Better to place such a bin by, or on the steps up, where people pass.
The tunnel/cave was opened right up in autumn last year. I have photos of it.
Did SY do it? .... dunno?
But it was a tidy mess. I would have thought that they would have cleared up any mess.
In any case Angelo, it was such an obvious place that everyone would have looked in there
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 02:15:56 AM
it's strange Sadie that bin being there, what is your theory, did Mossad place it there? Or the PJ? Or protectors of the abductorz. Do tell
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:53:20 AM
Are you going to post a photo of the opening after reopening Sadie?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2015, 08:51:03 AM
Are you going to post a photo of the opening after reopening Sadie?
No, I am not.
Maybe Shining will be going down there and hopefully might take a shot .... and have a better look than I had time for.
The steps down which were positively dangerous on my visit in 2010 have been comprehensively repaired; in fact remade. The foliage which I had to almost fight against in 2010 had been cut back completely when I visited late 2014.
But I doubt that they used the right concrete mix, cos the steps are cracking badly again. Probably quite safe to go down tho.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 28, 2015, 11:35:04 AM
1428-1431. The channel and the hole. Not much to say about these.
The sides of the channel show tool marks i.e. however this channel started out, it has been worked by man to give it this size and shape.
The large rocks in front of the entrance did not 'wash up' with sea action. This level can be below sea level at high tide, so I presume the large rocks are there to act as a breakwater, to prevent the concrete being opened up again.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 12:07:01 PM
Thanks for the photos and information ShiningInLuz. The opening was there in 2007 when we can see an accumulation of branches in it. At some date since then it was completely blocked by building a wall. Can you confirm whether this wall became demolished and was rebuilt?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 28, 2015, 12:39:55 PM
Thanks for the photos and information ShiningInLuz. The opening was there in 2007 when we can see an accumulation of branches in it. At some date since then it was completely blocked by building a wall. Can you confirm whether this wall became demolished and was rebuilt?
I have no information either way.
To be honest, until recently I thought this was 100% open and part of the storm drain system, so the fact it is blocked off was a surprise.
For background info, despite living in Maddieville, I had near zero interest in the case until the media broke the story that SY was to dig up central Luz, so I am very much a newbie.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 28, 2015, 12:49:23 PM
1428-1431. The channel and the hole. Not much to say about these.
The sides of the channel show tool marks i.e. however this channel started out, it has been worked by man to give it this size and shape.
The large rocks in front of the entrance did not 'wash up' with sea action. This level can be below sea level at high tide, so I presume the large rocks are there to act as a breakwater, to prevent the concrete being opened up again.
Brilliant Shining . Thank you so much
You can see the two ?steps that I mentioned on the second one down.
Looks like quite a bit of butchering has taken place there.
You say that you can see the man made tool marks? Very well observed Shining. 8@??)(
And the bin still stands there in solitary state as it has done for about 8 years now. It has changed colours tho, but it stands in exactly the same spot. Hmmm ...Intriguing £5%4%
I doubt anyone would be likely to use it and what a chore to try and empty it if used. I wonder, could it be standing there as a marker for sailors from the ocean? To sail in, out of sight, between the two high and very long rocks at that spot ... would have to be a small boat
I guess that I am wrong, but what the hell is it doing there?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 01:32:18 PM
@Sadie if the bin which no-one ever uses changes colour is it possible the colour is a code to signal to a small craft offshore? For example, a plain grey bin might signal "Located a target - go ahead at midnight" and a blue bin might signal "my torch batteries are getting a bit flat please bring replacements onshore by jetski and make sure they are alkaline this time" and so on. Striped bins of two or three colours could even be used to do multiplexing of several signals.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2015, 04:18:32 PM
@Sadie if the bin which no-one ever uses changes colour is it possible the colour is a code to signal to a small craft offshore? For example, a plain grey bin might signal "Located a target - go ahead at midnight" and a blue bin might signal "my torch batteries are getting a bit flat please bring replacements onshore by jetski and make sure they are alkaline this time" and so on. Striped bins of two or three colours could even be used to do multiplexing of several signals. [/quote
Bit of a pain having to change the paint on the bin all the time. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:31:22 PM
@Sadie if the bin which no-one ever uses changes colour is it possible the colour is a code to signal to a small craft offshore? For example, a plain grey bin might signal "Located a target - go ahead at midnight" and a blue bin might signal "my torch batteries are getting a bit flat please bring replacements onshore by jetski and make sure they are alkaline this time" and so on. Striped bins of two or three colours could even be used to do multiplexing of several signals. [/quote
Bit of a pain having to change the paint on the bin all the time. @)(++(*
Not if you're part of a cunning gang using bins as signs for actions in a planned abduction, Childs play
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 01:22:59 AM
Not if you're part of a cunning gang using bins as signs for actions in a planned abduction, Childs play
Covert communication devices have been disguised as everyday items before - and a rubbish bin is just as good as a rock. But now being serious - a witness stated the child being carried by smithman had long sleeves - doesn't this suggest it was not the missing child?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:36:17 AM
Covert communication devices have been disguised as everyday items before - and a rubbish bin is just as good as a rock. But now being serious - a witness stated the child being carried by smithman had long sleeves - doesn't this suggest it was not the missing child?
Very true ... In one experiment during the Cold War a cat, dubbed Acoustic Kitty, was wired up for use as an eavesdropping platform. It was hoped that the animal - which was surgically altered to accommodate transmitting and control devices - could listen to secret conversations from window sills, park benches or dustbins. Victor Marchetti, a former CIA officer, told The Telegraph that Project Acoustic Kitty was a gruesome creation. He said: "They slit the cat open, put batteries in him, wired him up. The tail was used as an antenna. They made a monstrosity. They tested him and tested him. They found he would walk off the job when he got hungry, so they put another wire in to override that." Mr Marchetti said that the first live trial was an expensive disaster. The technology is thought to have cost more than £10 million. He said: "They took it out to a park and put him out of the van, and a taxi comes and runs him over. There they were, sitting in the van with all those dials, and the cat was dead." The document, which was one of 40 to be declassified from the CIA's closely guarded Science and Technology Directorate - where spying techniques are refined - is still partly censored. This implies that the CIA was embarrassed about disclosing all the details of Acoustic Kitty, which took five years to design. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1361462/CIA-recruited-cat-to-bug-Russians.html
Only one witness said the child was wearing a long sleeved garment ... if all had concurred it would give your thinking that this was not the missing child more weight ... but I don't think one statement can be taken in isolation to prove it was not the missing child.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: misty on August 29, 2015, 01:54:30 AM
Covert communication devices have been disguised as everyday items before - and a rubbish bin is just as good as a rock. But now being serious - a witness stated the child being carried by smithman had long sleeves - doesn't this suggest it was not the missing child?
IMO Smithman was a diversionary tactic for Tannerman. JT did not see the length of sleeves on the pyjamas worn by the child carried by Tannerman. How much of a coincidence is it that 7 years later Crecheman's child turned out to have long sleeves too?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:59:07 AM
IMO Smithman was a diversionary tactic for Tannerman. JT did not see the length of sleeves on the pyjamas worn by the child carried by Tannerman. How much of a coincidence is it that 7 years later Crecheman's child turned out to have long sleeves too?
I couldn't agree more that Smithman was a diversion.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 02:09:32 AM
Only one witness said the child was wearing a long sleeved garment ... if all had concurred it would give your thinking that this was not the missing child more weight ... but I don't think one statement can be taken in isolation to prove it was not the missing child.
It seems a bit risky to say oh the long sleeves seen by a witness at the smith sighting don't fit with it being the missing child so let's assume the witness was mistaken and they were short sleeves.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 02:20:13 AM
It seems a bit risky to say oh the long sleeves seen by a witness at the smith sighting don't fit with it being the missing child so let's assume the witness was mistaken and they were short sleeves.
Not at all ... if the witness says she saw long sleeves that is fine.
If the other two witnesses whose statements we have seen didn't that is fine also.
It should be borne in mind that witness number one couldn't remember which day it was that she took the flight home.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 11:05:38 AM
@Sadie if the bin which no-one ever uses changes colour is it possible the colour is a code to signal to a small craft offshore? For example, a plain grey bin might signal "Located a target - go ahead at midnight" and a blue bin might signal "my torch batteries are getting a bit flat please bring replacements onshore by jetski and make sure they are alkaline this time" and so on. Striped bins of two or three colours could even be used to do multiplexing of several signals.
What fun @)(++(*
I like it
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 11:12:10 AM
Very true ... In one experiment during the Cold War a cat, dubbed Acoustic Kitty, was wired up for use as an eavesdropping platform. It was hoped that the animal - which was surgically altered to accommodate transmitting and control devices - could listen to secret conversations from window sills, park benches or dustbins. Victor Marchetti, a former CIA officer, told The Telegraph that Project Acoustic Kitty was a gruesome creation. He said: "They slit the cat open, put batteries in him, wired him up. The tail was used as an antenna. They made a monstrosity. They tested him and tested him. They found he would walk off the job when he got hungry, so they put another wire in to override that." Mr Marchetti said that the first live trial was an expensive disaster. The technology is thought to have cost more than £10 million. He said: "They took it out to a park and put him out of the van, and a taxi comes and runs him over. There they were, sitting in the van with all those dials, and the cat was dead." The document, which was one of 40 to be declassified from the CIA's closely guarded Science and Technology Directorate - where spying techniques are refined - is still partly censored. This implies that the CIA was embarrassed about disclosing all the details of Acoustic Kitty, which took five years to design. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1361462/CIA-recruited-cat-to-bug-Russians.html
Only one witness said the child was wearing a long sleeved garment ... if all had concurred it would give your thinking that this was not the missing child more weight ... but I don't think one statement can be taken in isolation to prove it was not the missing child.
Crikey.
Now that is going a bit far.
Poor cat. Altho I suppose it coul have been very useful had it worked.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 11:21:30 AM
Not at all ... if the witness says she saw long sleeves that is fine.
If the other two witnesses whose statements we have seen didn't that is fine also.
It should be borne in mind that witness number one couldn't remember which day it was that she took the flight home.
The long sleeves
One of three things in my opinion:
1) It wasn't Madeleine
2) It was Madeleine, but she was shivering and maybe turning blue, so she was taken somewhere en route and they "borrowed" a long sleeved top for her. I have always wonderd if the time differences between the Jane Tanner sighting and the Smith sighting meant that she had been taken somewhere en route?
I wondered about the "Staff Quarters".
They are just up the road from the Smith sighting, according to someone on the 3A's a scream was heard coming from somewhere there
.... and I have always felt that the lifting of Madeleine, from her bed, would have been done by someone that she knew in case she woke up.
3) that the witness was mistaken about the long sleeves. This seems the least likely to me.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 11:41:25 AM
Not at all ... if the witness says she saw long sleeves that is fine.
If the other two witnesses whose statements we have seen didn't that is fine also.
It should be borne in mind that witness number one couldn't remember which day it was that she took the flight home.
The witness states the exact correct date of the return flight and the fact that she adds something like "but I am not completely sure" raises the quality of this witness IMO. No unsureness is stated about the long sleeves.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 04:31:51 PM
The witness states the exact correct date of the return flight and the fact that she adds something like "but I am not completely sure" raises the quality of this witness IMO. No unsureness is stated about the long sleeves.
The return date was demonstrable.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 07:40:45 PM
There is evidence they were long sleeves - because that is what a witness states. There is no evidence they were short sleeves A theory must fit the facts.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 08:33:19 PM
There is evidence they were long sleeves - because that is what a witness states. There is no evidence they were short sleeves A theory must fit the facts.
I really do not have a theory about what happened to Madeleine that includes Smithman.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 08:44:06 PM
Better to be bigoted (if you are that is) than cast aspersions on people's characters online that you don't know, such as, being a sadist or a paedophile or an abductor protector, don't you think? All of which you are guilty of so less of the playing at the moral highground which you (and some of your ilk) are a million miles away from....basically
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 30, 2015, 05:07:32 PM
End of the stroll.
1432. From the channel in the rock to the Fortaleza above. There is an arm hanging over the terrace, but this was mid August, not early May.
1433. From the end of the channel to the rocks south of the Fortaleza. Nobody went up or down this lot. My thanks to the person who wandered along to give us some perspective.
1434. 8:25pm. All the lights are on, and you can see that they don't amount to much. Plus, for those of you into bins, notice another blue bin pinned to the rocks in the middle.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
1432. From the channel in the rock to the Fortaleza above. There is an arm hanging over the terrace, but this was mid August, not early May.
1433. From the end of the channel to the rocks south of the Fortaleza. Nobody went up or down this lot. My thanks to the person who wandered along to give us some perspective.
1434. 8:25pm. All the lights are on, and you can see that they don't amount to much. Plus, for those of you into bins, notice another blue bin pinned to the rocks in the middle.
That is interesting thanks Shining.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
Long before SY's "revelation" it was easy to see that the child JT saw being carried was not the missing child. Because the pyjama legs seen were much longer than the missing child's. Just saying, in the irish sighting, the sleeve length seen is much longer than the missing child's.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
Long before SY's "revelation" it was easy to see that the child JT saw being carried was not the missing child. Because the pyjama legs seen were much longer than the missing child's. Just saying, in the irish sighting, the sleeve length seen is much longer than the missing child's.
M&S children's pyjamas are normally very generous in both width & length. The trouser waistband may well have slid down past her hips, given the manner in which she was being carried. I don't think you can rule out Tannerman solely on that basis.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 10:00:01 PM
Long before SY's "revelation" it was easy to see that the child JT saw being carried was not the missing child. Because the pyjama legs seen were much longer than the missing child's. Just saying, in the irish sighting, the sleeve length seen is much longer than the missing child's.
How do you know what sleeve length the smiths saw? And working back what sleeve length Madeleine might have worn ?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 30, 2015, 10:09:12 PM
Kate said that Madeleine was wearing short sleeves and Aoife Smith said that they were long sleeves .
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 10:14:26 PM
Kate said that Madeleine was wearing short sleeves and Aoife Smith said that they were long sleeves .
Yes, I know that...Pegasus referred to JTs sighting not being possible as being to Madeleine because the length of the pyjama bottoms was wrong...he then went on to comment on the length of the sleeves the Irish witness saw, I assumed he meant, in the same way, it couldn't be a sighting of Madeleine because the sleeves were too long if you see what I mean..so I asked how did he know this? What length sleeves would be right? LOL..of course I could have read it ALL wrong, it happens
ETA Pegasus could have just meant neither child was Madeleine because her pyjama bottoms were not as in the Tanner sketch to the ankle and the Smith sighting not her either as she had long sleeves in that! probably guilty of over analysing here, sorry
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2015, 07:33:41 AM
Yes, I know that...Pegasus referred to JTs sighting not being possible as being to Madeleine because the length of the pyjama bottoms was wrong...he then went on to comment on the length of the sleeves the Irish witness saw, I assumed he meant, in the same way, it couldn't be a sighting of Madeleine because the sleeves were too long if you see what I mean..so I asked how did he know this? What length sleeves would be right? LOL..of course I could have read it ALL wrong, it happens
ETA Pegasus could have just meant neither child was Madeleine because her pyjama bottoms were not as in the Tanner sketch to the ankle and the Smith sighting not her either as she had long sleeves in that! probably guilty of over analysing here, sorry
The child JT saw had trouser legs too long IMO for it to be the missing child. The child the Irish group saw had sleeves too long IMO for it to be the missing child IMO the man the Irish saw turned into the lane of steps.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: jassi on August 31, 2015, 02:28:47 PM
Can we be absolutely certain what Madeleine was wearing that evening ?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 02:41:09 PM
1432. From the channel in the rock to the Fortaleza above. There is an arm hanging over the terrace, but this was mid August, not early May.
1433. From the end of the channel to the rocks south of the Fortaleza. Nobody went up or down this lot. My thanks to the person who wandered along to give us some perspective.
1434. 8:25pm. All the lights are on, and you can see that they don't amount to much. Plus, for those of you into bins, notice another blue bin pinned to the rocks in the middle.
Great Piccis again, Shining. You're doing a great job of making the area easier for us to understand. Thank You
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2015, 04:55:27 PM
1432. From the channel in the rock to the Fortaleza above. There is an arm hanging over the terrace, but this was mid August, not early May.
1433. From the end of the channel to the rocks south of the Fortaleza. Nobody went up or down this lot. My thanks to the person who wandered along to give us some perspective.
1434. 8:25pm. All the lights are on, and you can see that they don't amount to much. Plus, for those of you into bins, notice another blue bin pinned to the rocks in the middle.
[/b][/size]
Wow wee. It's the same bin I do believe.
Been there [one colour or another] for over 8 years and now suddenly it has been moved
I do believe someone is reading our forum in PdL !!! *&*%£
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 31, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
Been there [one colour or another] for over 8 years and now suddenly it has been moved
I do believe someone is reading our forum in PdL !!! *&*%£
Of course someone in Luz is reading the forum. I am!
Two separate blue bins on the same date 14 Aug 2015.
No, I did not move one blue bin from beside the promenade to the middle of the rocks. Check the earlier photos and the blue bin on the middle rocks should also feature.
There's no bin-shuffling going on.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 11:05:29 PM
Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach could start at the lane/Block 4 car park to outside perimeter of the wasteland (probably hidden in bushes). Later move - ran alone to hiding place and then seen by the Smiths. Smithman knew the dark deserted rocky beach would be a good hiding place so this whole rocky area needs to be checked by cadaver dogs.
@Pathfinder. Certainly not agreeing with any part of your theory but looking at your route and photo (first post) it is all rocky with no sand and assuming you ruled out outlet in photo basically there is nowhere to hide anything here IMO.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 12:49:11 AM
Of course someone in Luz is reading the forum. I am!
Two separate blue bins on the same date 14 Aug 2015.
No, I did not move one blue bin from beside the promenade to the middle of the rocks. Check the earlier photos and the blue bin on the middle rocks should also feature.
There's no bin-shuffling going on.
Shining, I can assure you that I never thought that YOU moved the bin
Only one blue bin shows on the photos, but if you took them on August 14th, then one bin must be hidden, cos only the one shows on the photographs.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 01:14:44 AM
What a pile of rubbish, moving bins, different coloured bins, a disgrace to the fact and evidence based ethos of the forum here..
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 01:25:18 AM
So different coloured (and moving) bins mean.....? Just asking, just so as all forum members know what it means cos I hell dont It does help if posts are linked to a thread of a discussion, so people can keep up
So, a moving changng coloured bin fits,..where? How and why? Just asking
PS This is as told by admin a facts and evidence based forum, try and remember that and keep to it, and if a moving and colour changing bin fits in that then a OK, as long as the evidence is provided, others if you're talking utter COBBLERS then don't provide any evidence and everyone shall see the cobblers for what they are, simples really
Cheers 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 01, 2015, 07:45:49 AM
@Pathfinder. Certainly not agreeing with any part of your theory but looking at your route and photo (first post) it is all rocky with no sand and assuming you ruled out outlet in photo basically there is nowhere to hide anything here IMO.
I could go down to my local beach tonight in the dark and hide a child's body between rocks. Not a problem actually it's very easy but it doesn't mean it will stay there. You won't be digging on that terrain.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 09:13:46 AM
So different coloured (and moving) bins mean.....? Just asking, just so as all forum members know what it means cos I hell dont It does help if posts are linked to a thread of a discussion, so people can keep up
So, a moving changng coloured bin fits,..where? How and why? Just asking
PS This is as told by admin a facts and evidence based forum, try and remember that and keep to it, and if a moving and colour changing bin fits in that then a OK, as long as the evidence is provided, others if you're talking utter COBBLERS then don't provide any evidence and everyone shall see the cobblers for what they are, simples really
Cheers 8((()*/
Use the depth of your thought. I am sure that you have some.
Markers are not uncommon and the bin could have been used as a marker to identify to a boat at sea, coming in, where that tunnel / cave came out.
That tunnel might have been a smugglers route and if so could have been used to bring Madeleine down to the beach without being seen.
Hidden in plain sight.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 10:48:04 AM
I could go down to my local beach tonight in the dark and hide a child's body between rocks. Not a problem actually it's very easy but it doesn't mean it will stay there. You won't be digging on that terrain.
But that's a problem, isn't it? How do you then recuperate a body, quite possibly moved by the tide, without anyone noticing?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 02:34:08 PM
I could go down to my local beach tonight in the dark and hide a child's body between rocks. Not a problem actually it's very easy but it doesn't mean it will stay there. You won't be digging on that terrain.
So after your theory decided on this rocky area, why did you rule out the outlet which is visible in the photo you posted (see your post number 1 of this thread)? Isn't it the only place in your rocky area which is shielded from view?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 03:19:52 PM
I could go down to my local beach tonight in the dark and hide a child's body between rocks. Not a problem actually it's very easy but it doesn't mean it will stay there. You won't be digging on that terrain.
How many rocks do you estimate were moved? And what was their average size? 1 rock of 1m diameter? 100 rocks of 10cm diameter? And all within plain view of people walking along the esplanade. IMO it is not practical Pathfinder.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2015, 03:53:42 PM
How many rocks do you estimate were moved? And what was their average size? 1 rock of 1m diameter? 100 rocks of 10cm diameter? And all within plain view of people walking along the esplanade. IMO it is not practical Pathfinder.
That would weigh about a tonne. Stands a chance someone would notices the crane, appointed person and rigger.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 04:11:04 PM
That would weigh about a tonne. Stands a chance someone would notices the crane, appointed person and rigger.
Even to find a big enough gap between existing rock means being in plain sight of anyone walking along the esplanade, going to and from several bars and restaurants.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2015, 05:35:37 PM
Use the depth of your thought. I am sure that you have some.
Markers are not uncommon and the bin could have been used as a marker to identify to a boat at sea, coming in, where that tunnel / cave came out.
That tunnel might have been a smugglers route and if so could have been used to bring Madeleine down to the beach without being seen.
Hidden in plain sight.
Would the boat people have seen the bin at night and been able to check that the colour of it said 'All clear'? Perhaps it lights up like a lighthouse after dark?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: faithlilly on September 01, 2015, 06:42:08 PM
Would the boat people have seen the bin at night and been able to check that the colour of it said 'All clear'? Perhaps it lights up like a lighthouse after dark?
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 07:40:58 PM
Would the boat people have seen the bin at night and been able to check that the colour of it said 'All clear'? Perhaps it lights up like a lighthouse after dark?
I presume they had multi-spectrum viewing capability. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:03:30 PM
Use the depth of your thought. I am sure that you have some.
Markers are not uncommon and the bin could have been used as a marker to identify to a boat at sea, coming in, where that tunnel / cave came out.
That tunnel might have been a smugglers route and if so could have been used to bring Madeleine down to the beach without being seen.
Hidden in plain sight.
Yes you are right I do have some depth of thought, thanks sooo much for acknowledging the possibility/probability
Unfortunately the depth can't quite grasp the notion of moving and colour changing bins as some sign to "go ahead and abduct" or "go ahead and walk down the road" etc etc
it is laughable at bloody best
It was a rubbish bin
You might be thinking of million dollar bank heists and abduction of royalty members NOT a normal 3 year old from an ordinary family!!!
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 10:37:15 PM
Yes you are right I do have some depth of thought, thanks sooo much for acknowledging the possibility/probability
Unfortunately the depth can't quite grasp the notion of moving and colour changing bins as some sign to "go ahead and abduct" or "go ahead and walk down the road" etc etc
it is laughable at bloody best
It was a rubbish bin
You might be thinking of million dollar bank heists and abduction of royalty members NOT a normal 3 year old from an ordinary family!!!
A rubbish bin positioned where no-body walks? Right adjacent to an unfenced [?]6' drop. Very convenient, aint it? And very safe for kiddies to go and put their ice lolly sticks in.
Why didn't they position it in a safer place at the bottom of the steps up leaving the beach? Where people would gladly use it.
My bet is that stranger things than bins will have been used historically as markers. That might have been marking a smugglers tunnel; we dont know
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:58:29 PM
Ok!
@)(++(*
Whatever you say mustt be right........not
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: pegasus on September 02, 2015, 02:40:15 AM
There are a few photos of Pathfinder's rocky area on 9th May.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Lace on September 02, 2015, 09:36:57 AM
That would weigh about a tonne. Stands a chance someone would notices the crane, appointed person and rigger.
*&*%£
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 10:35:12 AM
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop. High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.
Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.
The optimum time to throw a body from the top of the diff into the sea would be between 0200hrs and 0400hrs as the sea would be at the cliffs edge. Conversely this would not be the optimum time window for a beach burial.
(...)
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable scenario. However should further assurance be required I would suggest a limited inspection around the rock falls at the base of the cliffs' on the beach and the waters around the rocky outcrop to the east of the beach. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Did police divers ever check around the Rocha Negra area?
If someone with the Kindle version could help as I don't have the book to hand... In Kate's book, she mentions a lady who'd told her that she'd spotted headlights (?) heading up unusually high on the night, but either Kate or the lady had been told that it was probably a GNR car involved in the search.
What would make GNR officers think that a child could have wandered up there that night?
I haven't found anything to suggest that the GNR did go up there that night, so what was that about?
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Benice on September 02, 2015, 11:03:48 AM
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop. High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.
Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.
The optimum time to throw a body from the top of the diff into the sea would be between 0200hrs and 0400hrs as the sea would be at the cliffs edge. Conversely this would not be the optimum time window for a beach burial.
(...)
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable scenario. However should further assurance be required I would suggest a limited inspection around the rock falls at the base of the cliffs' on the beach and the waters around the rocky outcrop to the east of the beach. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Did police divers ever check around the Rocha Negra area?
If someone with the Kindle version could help as I don't have the book to hand... In Kate's book, she mentions a lady who'd told her that she'd spotted headlights (?) heading up unusually high on the night, but either Kate or the lady had been told that it was probably a GNR car involved in the search.
What would make GNR officers think that a child could have wandered up there that night?
I haven't found anything to suggest that the GNR did go up there that night, so what was that about?
This is the extract from Kate's book Carana - (pages 85/86)
''A lady from an apartment across Rua Dr Gentil Martins, overlooking our little side gate, came over to speak to us. She said that the previous night she had see a car going up the Rocha Negra - the black volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night. It immediately conjured visions of Madeleine being disposed of somewhere on the overhanging cliff. I went to tell on the police officers who was able to speak a little English. He was quite dismissive. It would have been one of the GNR men checking the area, he said.''
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on September 02, 2015, 11:42:13 AM
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop. High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.
Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.
The optimum time to throw a body from the top of the diff into the sea would be between 0200hrs and 0400hrs as the sea would be at the cliffs edge. Conversely this would not be the optimum time window for a beach burial.
(...)
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable scenario. However should further assurance be required I would suggest a limited inspection around the rock falls at the base of the cliffs' on the beach and the waters around the rocky outcrop to the east of the beach. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Did police divers ever check around the Rocha Negra area?
If someone with the Kindle version could help as I don't have the book to hand... In Kate's book, she mentions a lady who'd told her that she'd spotted headlights (?) heading up unusually high on the night, but either Kate or the lady had been told that it was probably a GNR car involved in the search.
What would make GNR officers think that a child could have wandered up there that night?
I haven't found anything to suggest that the GNR did go up there that night, so what was that about?
Not sure what your looking for,Carana. Kate said that a lady who lived across the road and overlooked their little gate had told her that she saw a car driving up Negra Rocha on that night which was unusual in daytime let alone night/. Kate told a GNR officer who said it was probably the GNR, but wasn’t really interested.
I believe a couple of the OC staff went searching in a car around the beach area, but cant remember who.
Excerpts: After this, at about 08.00 the three search and rescue sniffer dog teams (Silva with Timmy, Cortez with Sacha and Sousa with Kolly and Cookie) who had arrived at the site, began searching, leaving the resort in the direction of the beach.
During the entire morning, searches were made of the beach and rocks, from Rocha Negra to the area of Ponta da Gaviota (an approximate area of 2 km). During the morning searches were also made of the areas surrounding Praia da Luz, with a radius of about 300 metres, as well as some abandoned houses, wells and plots of land inside P da L.
After an evaluation of the situation in the field, it was decided to request two more search and rescue sniffer dogs from the GNR Queluz station, given the extent of the terrain to be searched, whilst the hypothesis that the girl could have left the apartment on foot was not discarded.
During the afternoon of 4th May, more searches were carried out around Vila da Luz and were extended to a radius of approximately 600 metres, including the surroundings of the EN125 in the stretch closed to P da L.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team). http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11.html
Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.
This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast. This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.
An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post861.html#p861
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 12:34:44 PM
This is the extract from Kate's book Carana - (pages 85/86)
''A lady from an apartment across Rua Dr Gentil Martins, overlooking our little side gate, came over to speak to us. She said that the previous night she had see a car going up the Rocha Negra - the black volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night. It immediately conjured visions of Madeleine being disposed of somewhere on the overhanging cliff. I went to tell on the police officers who was able to speak a little English. He was quite dismissive. It would have been one of the GNR men checking the area, he said.''
Thanks Anna... That was what I was thinking of. Which night would the lady have been referring to? If it was the night of 4/5 then that would seem more LESS unusual than on 3/4.
ETA: Sorry, I meant less rather than more.
Title: Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
Post by: Anna on September 02, 2015, 12:49:46 PM
It was Jeronimo that I was thinking of....Could have been his car/van that drove up the hill.
my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas.
At this point more people were at the location, including residents of Praia da Luz. A man named Matt who owned a club in the locale, seemed to now be the operational front. A big part of our group was sent to the beach; we formed a sort of human extension cord in our searches. We finally returned to the Tapas around 04H00. We were sent home at the time.
I do not know when the police were called but the first time I saw them was around 23h00-23h00 that night.
Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.
I stayed in Praia da Luz working in the Tapas until the end of July 2007, at which time I returned to the U.K.
This statement was made by me and is true in accordance with my understanding.