UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Inspector Gadget on February 12, 2020, 08:44:34 PM
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Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.
Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :
1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?
2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.
Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.
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I too have wondered about how Nevill was overpowered by either of his children.
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I too have wondered about how Nevill was overpowered by either of his children.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs: two to the face, one to the shoulder and the other to the chest.
The pathologist said the gws's to the face would have killed him had other gunshot wounds sustained downstairs not supervened. The facial wounds caused severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally. They were both fired within inches of his face with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s. The wound to his shoulder resulted in total incapacitation of his left arm. The wound to the elbow was a graze only wound.
The bullets were hollow nosed as opposed to round nosed meaning more of the kinetic energy is transferred into the target. The bullet opens up like a petal and zips around the body tearing through tissue and muscle.
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The following report by the pathologist details NB's gsw's and other injuries sustained eg blows from a blunt instrument, most probably the rifle.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.msg2230#msg2230
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The following vid explains how hollow nosed bullets work:
https://youtu.be/xb9nXeXqEho
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And just to clarify we know NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs and four downstairs due to the spent casings. Any of the 4 sustained downstairs would have immobilised him. Therefore the four upstairs must have preceded the four downstairs.
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Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.
Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :
1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?
2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.
Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.
Hi and welcome to the forum Inspector Gadget. I look forward to reading your contribution.
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NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs: two to the face, one to the shoulder and the other to the chest.
The pathologist said the gws's to the face would have killed him had other gunshot wounds sustained downstairs not supervened. The facial wounds caused severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally. They were both fired within inches of his face with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s. The wound to his shoulder resulted in total incapacitation of his left arm. The wound to the elbow was a graze only wound.
The bullets were hollow nosed as opposed to round nosed meaning more of the kinetic energy is transferred into the target. The bullet opens up like a petal and zips around the body tearing through tissue and muscle.
How were they able to work out which injuries were sustained where?
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Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.
Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :
1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?
2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.
Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.
Good day Inspector Gadget
1) We can build a picture of the scene from the shell casings and pathologists report. But as you can imagine, the actual chronological sequence of shootings remains a subject of heated debate. Were the twins shot first? If not, neither of them appeared to stir during the commotion as they were found in their beds, one of them still sucking his thumb. Or did Jeremy save them till last as a sick bargaining chip to keep Sheila compliant?
Certainly it did not go wholly according to plan and he could not finish either June or Nevill before requiring to reload. An injured Nevill then either barged or stole past him trying to get downstairs.
There is a drawing somewhere on these pages, detailing where the spent cartridges were found.
2) Good question, I don't think Jeremy seriously considered hiring a hitman for that night's work, he told Julie about matty mcdonald in an effort to put some distance between the man she loved and the monster who killed 5 members of his family.
Where would this farmer have found such a hitman, a stranger willing to kill 5 people incl 2 kids whilst using cunning, to make it appear as a murder-suicide? It would have been a technical hit that required great care. And at what price? Jeremy wasn't going to be cash rich until after the killings. More than one person would surely have known about it as it required making enquiries to find this hitman prepared for that particular gruesome nights work. And if this individual were to slip up and get caught? Inevitable JB could then expect to be handed over.
No, It was important that Jeremy himself staged the scene of deranged murder suicide, there was too much at stake to allow a stranger to do it. Once McDonald provided his alibi, no evidence of a hitman has ever come to light in the 35 years since.
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How were they able to work out which injuries were sustained where?
See post #5. Shell casings and pathological evidence. When the rifle is discharged the bullet exits via the barrel and the spent casing, which contained the propellant, is automatically ejected from a port located on the right hand side.
The twins were shot in their beds and it is thought they were asleep.
June and SC sustained all gunshot wounds in the main bedroom evidenced by blood stains to carpet and lack of on the landing, along with the casings.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds to the head any of which would have immobilised him so given he was found downstairs in the kitchen it has been accepted he sustained these gsw's in the kitchen where he was found. 3 casings were found in the kitchen which was untidy and cluttered so the missing casing might well have been overlooked. Also police officers tidied up and did not take any sweeping from the floor. Casings are about 0.5cm dia and 1cm length.
A casing was found on the landing which some have suggested was transferred there inadvertently under an officer's boot.
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Thank you for this!
We know from forensics that Sheila did NOT go downstairs, didn’t reload, didn’t have any damage to hands or feet, neither was she involved in a struggle so it 100% was not her. That’s an interesting point about the twins last as bargaining. Sheila clearly submitted and put up no resistance which means either she was heavily sedated or she was scared about something and done exactly what JB said.
I also don’t believe JB went downstairs to reload. It was too risky and he wasn’t stupid enough to think one magazine of 10 bullets would take out 5 people. I think it’s more likely that he had two more fully loaded magazines on him by a belt.
It’s one of the most fascinating parts of this case. Knowing that he lied and is guilty but trying to piece it all together with so many unknowns.
The clothing he wore and the burn marks on NB are of great mystery to me. I wonder what he wore that night so that he didn’t leave much behind and I believe he fired more shots after people were already dead to make it look chaotic. I.e twins, June and Nb all received secondary shots after the primary shots mortally wounded them.
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Regarding the burn marks on Nevill, no matching burns/holes were found in his pyjamas, and it is likely to forever remain a mystery. Likely some manner of farming accident.
I personally don't think that the Kids needed to still be alive in order for Sheila to be compliant. Being terrified by an armed intruder all Bamber needed to do was scream at her "DOWN, DOWN, F****** DOWN NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES" and most people would do as they are instructed
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Thank you for this!
We know from forensics that Sheila did NOT go downstairs, didn’t reload, didn’t have any damage to hands or feet, neither was she involved in a struggle so it 100% was not her. That’s an interesting point about the twins last as bargaining. Sheila clearly submitted and put up no resistance which means either she was heavily sedated or she was scared about something and done exactly what JB said.
I also don’t believe JB went downstairs to reload. It was too risky and he wasn’t stupid enough to think one magazine of 10 bullets would take out 5 people. I think it’s more likely that he had two more fully loaded magazines on him by a belt.
It’s one of the most fascinating parts of this case. Knowing that he lied and is guilty but trying to piece it all together with so many unknowns.
The clothing he wore and the burn marks on NB are of great mystery to me. I wonder what he wore that night so that he didn’t leave much behind and I believe he fired more shots after people were already dead to make it look chaotic. I.e twins, June and Nb all received secondary shots after the primary shots mortally wounded them.
I didn't mention anything about the order of succession in terms of who was shot first.
The above are your views not mine and do not fit with the scientific evidence.
10 bullets would most definitely kill all 5 if the shooter was able to inflict wounds to the head or major organs.
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Regarding the burn marks on Nevill, no matching burns/holes were found in his pyjamas, and it is likely to forever remain a mystery. Likely some manner of farming accident.
I personally don't think that the Kids needed to still be alive in order for Sheila to be compliant. Being terrified by an armed intruder all Bamber needed to do was scream at her "DOWN, DOWN, F****** DOWN NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES" and most people would do as they are instructed
They might if they didn't recognise the voice.
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I didn’t say you did. I was replying Steve but it didn’t include the quote.
I prefer to study the facts and the evidence which forensically says she didn’t have enough trace of copper to have reloaded. No damage to hands or nails that would indicate a fight. Barely any blood on hands. Barely any prints on gun. Nothing on feet to suggest being anywhere in kitchen. No damage to face to indicate being in a fight. 🤷🏻♂️
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They might if they didn't recognise the voice.
True, which is why it makes sense to scream at her bank robbery style and keep her as terrified as possible. In my opinion
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I didn’t say you did. I was replying Steve but it didn’t include the quote.
I prefer to study the facts and the evidence which forensically says she didn’t have enough trace of copper to have reloaded. No damage to hands or nails that would indicate a fight. Barely any blood on hands. Barely any prints on gun. Nothing on feet to suggest being anywhere in kitchen. No damage to face to indicate being in a fight. 🤷🏻♂️
There is no such forensic test based on copper to determine whether or not someone handled cartridges hence none of the independent forensic service providers offer such testing.
There's no evidence a fight took place.
There was so little blood on the rifle it wasn't even possible to group so why would you expect blood on SC's hands?
What would you expect to find on SC's feet and why?
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True, which is why it makes sense to scream at her bank robbery style and keep her as terrified as possible. In my opinion
But you're claiming JB screamed at SC not a bank robber.
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But you're claiming JB screamed at SC not a bank robber.
Exactly. I don't think he would have softly requested "get down sis, get down and the kids won't get hurt".
The grim nights work needed to be over and done with quickly
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There is no such forensic test based on copper to determine whether or not someone handled cartridges hence none of the independent forensic service providers offer such testing.
There's no evidence a fight took place.
There was so little blood on the rifle it wasn't even possible to group so why would you expect blood on SC's hands?
What would you expect to find on SC's feet and why?
According to the Supreme Court of appeal 2002 her hands and feet appeared clean according officers first on the scene and then hands were bagged and later tested in a lab in which minimal traces of copper were found which wasn’t in line with the amount of shots fired and reloads taken place. Point 46-50 on the official court of appeal doc for your ref. (It won’t let me link it here)
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Re the testing of SC's hands I would point out that tests undertaken by Brian Elliot at FSS are completely unscientific and invalid.
And much of the evidence provided by the so-called ballistics expert at FSS, Malcolm Fletcher, contradicts with experts from US. At the time of JB's trial MF told the court he had 13 years experience in the firearms dept and a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy. He did not say what exactly his 13 years entailed in the firearms dept nor did he tell the court about any formal qualifications, membership of professional bodies etc.
The UK gov has acknowledged failings at the Home Office run Forensic Science Service during the 80's. What it has yet to recognise is that these failings played a significant part in JB's conviction!
3.3.1
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
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http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
It's all there. Her majesty versus Bamber.
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According to the Supreme Court of appeal 2002 her hands and feet appeared clean according officers first on the scene and then hands were bagged and later tested in a lab in which minimal traces of copper were found which wasn’t in line with the amount of shots fired and reloads taken place. Point 46-50 on the official court of appeal doc for your ref. (It won’t let me link it here)
I'm familiar with the doc thanks.
The only valid scientific test used to determine whether someone discharged a firearm is a test for gunshot residue which wasn't used in this case. All tests for other elements eg lead, copper are invalid.
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Re the testing of SC's hands I would point out that tests undertaken by Brian Elliot at FSS are completely unscientific and invalid.
And much of the evidence provided by the so-called ballistics expert at FSS, Malcolm Fletcher, contradicts with experts from US. At the time of JB's trial MF told the court he had 13 years experience in the firearms dept and a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy. He did not say what exactly his 13 years entailed in the firearms dept nor did he tell the court about any formal qualifications, membership of professional bodies etc.
The UK gov has acknowledged failings at the Home Office run Forensic Science Service during the 80's. What it has yet to recognise is that these failings played a significant part in JB's conviction!
Can you point out exactly where it says Brian Elliott’s tests were invalid? And if so why hasn’t this been challenged since 2002?
3.3.1
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
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I'm familiar with the doc thanks.
The only valid scientific test used to determine whether someone discharged a firearm is a test for gunshot residue which wasn't used in this case. All tests for other elements eg lead, copper are invalid.
“I’m familiar with the doc thanks” such an arrogant and prickly reply. Are you ok? You seem a bit touchy. Maybe let me just hear from the pro guilty people if it winds you up so much. Because he is 100% guilty so I’m just trying to get peoples opinion on what order they think the murders went down, not about whether he is guilty or not (as per my original post). I already know he is guilty hence why he has been locked in a cage for the last 30+ years 👍🏻:-)
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“I’m familiar with the doc thanks” such an arrogant and prickly reply. Are you ok? You seem a bit touchy. Maybe let me just hear from the pro guilty people if it winds you up so much. Because he is 100% guilty so I’m just trying to get peoples opinion on what order they think the murders went down, not about whether he is guilty or not (as per my original post). I already know he is guilty hence why he has been locked in a cage for the last 30+ years 👍🏻:-)
Not prickly at all just pointing out I'm offay with the doc. However please refrain from making comments of a personal nature.
And my initial posts on this thread were completely non-partisan.
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https://www.justicedirectory.co.uk/directory/forensic-services/
For those who believe the tests carried out on SC's hands were valid scientific tests I've uploaded a directory of UK forensic service providers and invite anyone to identify a provider offering such tests.
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Not prickly at all just pointing out I'm offay with the doc. However please refrain from making comments of a personal nature.
And my initial posts on this thread were completely non-partisan.
Not prickly at all just pointing out I'm offay with the doc. However please refrain from making comments of a personal nature.
And my initial posts on this thread were completely non-partisan.
Non partisan lol. That’s a good one. Let me know where it says that specific piece of evidence is invalid please ? And also what order you think he (or acomplice) massacred that poor family.
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Non partisan lol. That’s a good one. Let me know where it says that specific piece of evidence is invalid please ? And also what order you think he (or acomplice) massacred that poor family.
I will not ask you a third time to refrain from making comments of a personal nature.
The fact something is quoted in the CoA doc doesn't make it factually correct.
I do not believe JB was responsible.
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I will not ask you a third time to refrain from making comments of a personal nature.
The fact something is quoted in the CoA doc doesn't make it factually correct.
I do not believe JB was responsible.
Personal? What are you talking about?? What bit is personal? I know you don’t think he is responsible hence why I am not really interested in on your views on my post. I won’t ask you a third time but please let this post for pro guilty people to comment on as that is who I directed MY post at. Thank you 👍🏻
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See post #5. Shell casings and pathological evidence. When the rifle is discharged the bullet exits via the barrel and the spent casing, which contained the propellant, is automatically ejected from a port located on the right hand side.
The twins were shot in their beds and it is thought they were asleep.
June and SC sustained all gunshot wounds in the main bedroom evidenced by blood stains to carpet and lack of on the landing, along with the casings.
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds to the head any of which would have immobilised him so given he was found downstairs in the kitchen it has been accepted he sustained these gsw's in the kitchen where he was found. 3 casings were found in the kitchen which was untidy and cluttered so the missing casing might well have been overlooked. Also police officers tidied up and did not take any sweeping from the floor. Casings are about 0.5cm dia and 1cm length.
A casing was found on the landing which some have suggested was transferred there inadvertently under an officer's boot.
The casing layout diagram.
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Personal? What are you talking about?? What bit is personal? I know you don’t think he is responsible hence why I am not really interested in on your views on my post. I won’t ask you a third time but please let this post for pro guilty people to comment on as that is who I directed MY post at. Thank you 👍🏻
Please calm down otherwise I think your visit here will be short-lived.
Members are free to contribute as and when they see fit regardless of who they believe was responsible.
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The casing layout diagram.
Interesting. That would explain the shots Jeremy made to Nb on his left side while standing above him in doorway. Still not sure if he murdered the children first or last though.
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Please calm down otherwise I think your visit here will be short-lived.
Members are free to contribute as and when they see fit regardless of who they believe was responsible.
I am extremely calm. You are the one who is claiming I am getting personal and now threatening to boot me out?
Please stick to topic... which is clear in my original post 👍🏻
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I am extremely calm. You are the one who is claiming I am getting personal and now threatening to boot me out?
Please stick to topic... which is clear in my original post 👍🏻
As a moderator I determine what is and isn't on-topic.
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Interesting. That would explain the shots Jeremy made to Nb on his left side while standing above him in doorway. Still not sure if he murdered the children first or last though.
If JB was stood above NB in the doorway then you have NB on the landing?
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If JB was stood above NB in the doorway then you have NB on the landing?
No I have him on the bed with his left side facing JB who was shooting from the doorway.
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No I have him on the bed with his left side facing JB who was shooting from the doorway.
How do you account for
- none of NB's blood found in the bedroom
- distance of facial shots at a few inches
- trajectories of facial shots 10 - 20 degrees below the horizontal
- the gunshot wounds to NB's shoulder and elbow were to the rear of his body; when did NB turn?
- the track of the wound to NB's shoulder was fired from above.
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I recall there was some suggestion from their Injuries that the parents were initially shot sitting up (June) or in the act of getting out of bed (Nevill), implying that he was at least partially ready for an intruder.
It's why some believe the children were shot first and Nevill heard the report from the silencer. By the time Jeremy ran across the landing to the parents bedroom for step 2, June and Nevill were awake.
I stand to be corrected on this, I had a look for the old thread on here but it must be buried somewhere under a misleading title.
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There was lots of blood in bedroom that wasn’t tested right? Didn’t they say that 5 areas of blood was found but not all tested due to the incorrect assumption of murders suicide ? That could have been NB but will never know. Certainly can’t rule out. Are you trying to say he wasn’t shot at all in bedroom?!
If he was sitting on edge of bed then JB would still be tall enough to fire downwards and to his left.
Either way I think Jeremy struck June first and then he either sat up in shock and got shot a couple of times on his left side or he tried to jump at JB and got struck on the way to him, then found himself in doorway and tried to go downstairs where he was shot again. Unsure if on stairs or bottom of stairs but guess that’s what I’m trying to find out.
We know 4 shots were fired upstairs and 4 in kitchen. The latter were all fatal shots after he was beaten unconsciou imo..
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Still getting used to this. Apols for missing of quite of person in reply to but it was holly.
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There was lots of blood in bedroom that wasn’t tested right? Didn’t they say that 5 areas of blood was found but not all tested due to the incorrect assumption of murders suicide ? That could have been NB but will never know. Certainly can’t rule out. Are you trying to say he wasn’t shot at all in bedroom?!
Two samples of carpet were removed with 5 areas tested. If all concerned thought it a slam dunk why go the trouble? The drip stains from June's side of the bed to NB's side and back to the door show the blood originated from June coupled with the fact there was no blood leading out of the bedroom onto the landing.
I don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
If he was sitting on edge of bed then JB would still be tall enough to fire downwards and to his left.
No as this wouldn't fit with the wound tracks, trajectories, casings, lack of blood or distance of shots.
Either way I think Jeremy struck June first and then he either sat up in shock and got shot a couple of times on his left side or he tried to jump at JB and got struck on the way to him, then found himself in doorway and tried to go downstairs where he was shot again. Unsure if on stairs or bottom of stairs but guess that’s what I’m trying to find out.
As I said none of the physical evidence supports NB sustaining any gsw's in the bedroom.
We know 4 shots were fired upstairs and 4 in kitchen. The latter were all fatal shots after he was beaten unconsciou imo..
A, soc reconstruction should have been carried out with the judge and jury taken to WHF to see for themselves. This will be carried out as part of a third appeal.
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Two samples of carpet were removed with 5 areas tested. If all concerned thought it a slam dunk why go the trouble? The drip stains from June's side of the bed to NB's side and back to the door show the blood originated from June coupled with the fact there was no blood leading out of the bedroom onto the landing.
I don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
No as this wouldn't fit with the wound tracks, trajectories, casings, lack of blood or distance of shots.
As I said none of the physical evidence supports NB sustaining any gsw's in the bedroom.
A, soc reconstruction should have been carried out with the judge and jury taken to WHF to see for themselves. This will be carried out as part of a third appeal.
That's not really for you to say.
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But again, was ALL of the blood tested in the room? I read that there were several patches that were not tested therefore we can’t rule out NB blood wasn’t in room.
He could have lunged at JB hence led crouched or turning which could also give the desired trajectory body positions when lunging could be in any direction.
I am sure they cannot appeal on that basis. If they do it will be laughed at again. There’s no way you can overturn a murder verdict on what you have written. Too much ambiguity. Hence this discussion for us to work out how he killed them all. Unless they can overturn his phonecall lie (they can’t) AND the silencer evidence (they can’t) then I don’t see how he gets off.
35 years and counting. He will die there and hopefully has the guts to confess before he dies.
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This will be carried out as part of a third appeal.
Bamber knows he won’t be getting anymore opportunities Holly
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But again, was ALL of the blood tested in the room? I read that there were several patches that were not tested therefore we can’t rule out NB blood wasn’t in room.
He could have lunged at JB hence led crouched or turning which could also give the desired trajectory body positions when lunging could be in any direction.
I am sure they cannot appeal on that basis. If they do it will be laughed at again. There’s no way you can overturn a murder verdict on what you have written. Too much ambiguity. Hence this discussion for us to work out how he killed them all. Unless they can overturn his phonecall lie (they can’t) AND the silencer evidence (they can’t) then I don’t see how he gets off.
35 years and counting. He will die there and hopefully has the guts to confess before he dies.
Right, In this case it's not possible to ascertain exactly and without ambiguity how the injuries were sustained, where and in what order, when there are no surviving witnesses who admit to being present.
Holly compares the need for a soc reconstruction in front of jurors with the Tony Martin case when there are 2 surviving witnesses and it is necessary using their own accounts to show who was standing where when it went off. This also happened with Kenneth Noye's murder trial
edit - I mean Noye's first murder trial in the 80's when he stabbed a police officer to death on surveillance leaving a surviving witness
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Right, In this case it's not possible to ascertain exactly and without ambiguity how the injuries were sustained, where and in what order, when there are no surviving witnesses who admit to being present.
Holly compares the need for a soc reconstruction in front of jurors with the Tony Martin case when there are 2 surviving witnesses and it is necessary using their own accounts to show who was standing where when it went off. This also happened with Kenneth Noye's murder trial
edit - I mean Noye's first murder trial in the 80's when he stabbed a police officer to death on surveillance leaving a surviving witness
I agree so with that in mind I fully believe NB received 4 shots upstairs and 4 downstairs
Twins shot once each as they slept then additional shots later after everybody was dead.
June shot 5 times initially then again between eyes later on when he had finished downstairs with NB
I think Sheila was sedated or scared and possibly kids used as bargaining tool - for whatever reason she submitted and went into that room and was shot without a struggle.
Bamber then went about disturbing scene and firing additional his shots to make it all look like murder suicide.
All opinion of course, as you say we will never know.
All we do know is Bamber is 100% guilty.
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But again, was ALL of the blood tested in the room? I read that there were several patches that were not tested therefore we can’t rule out NB blood wasn’t in room.
He could have lunged at JB hence led crouched or turning which could also give the desired trajectory body positions when lunging could be in any direction.
I am sure they cannot appeal on that basis. If they do it will be laughed at again. There’s no way you can overturn a murder verdict on what you have written. Too much ambiguity. Hence this discussion for us to work out how he killed them all. Unless they can overturn his phonecall lie (they can’t) AND the silencer evidence (they can’t) then I don’t see how he gets off.
35 years and counting. He will die there and hopefully has the guts to confess before he dies.
If Nevill's blood was present in the bedroom, it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that in the five areas tested that none was detected.
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If Nevill's blood was present in the bedroom, it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that in the five areas tested that none was detected.
With that in mind then we can assume June was shot in the main bedroom but for whatever reason NB wasn’t. Which means he was awake / disturbed when initial shots happened and managed to escape bedroom. Where were the first four shots? I thought it was accepted that 4 connected with him upstairs so where is the blood?
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With that in mind then we can assume June was shot in the main bedroom but for whatever reason NB wasn’t. Which means he was awake / disturbed when initial shots happened and managed to escape bedroom. Where were the first four shots? I thought it was accepted that 4 connected with him upstairs so where is the blood?
It is my belief (and Holly's) is that Nevill was shot on the stairs. The thing is, no one knows what time the shooting started, it may have been around midnight and prior to Nevill going to bed. If you believe Bamber is innocent, this part where you inject the phone call and Nevill died after 03:15, if you believe he's guilty, then Nevill could have died much earlier, which means he may have not retired at all.
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It is my belief (and Holly's) is that Nevill was shot on the stairs. The thing is, no one knows what time the shooting started, it may have been around midnight and prior to Nevill going to bed. If you believe Bamber is innocent, this part where you inject the phone call and Nevill died after 03:15, if you believe he's guilty, then Nevill could have died much earlier, which means he may have not retired at all.
But the phone call was proven to be a lie. If receiver was off the hook then it wouldn’t have cut off mid discussion and line certainly would have remained open. He wouldn’t have been able to call police or Julie. His statement to police on this site is incredible evasive and clearly he is lying therefore we have to assume that the call didn’t happen. Besides JB himself said his dad called him at 3am and woke him up so he couldn’t have died earlier in JB’s own words so he couldn’t have died before retiring.
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Broadly speaking that is how I see it too. We can build a picture from the scene how it went down. Your conclusions regarding Nevill make sense. Also with June evidence from the scene suggests that she staggered around the bed after the initial attack being finished off between the eyes.
When it comes to Sheila, Jeremy may have just pounced on her wherever he found her by the time he ran back upstairs following the unplanned detour by Nevill. As long as she wasn't in her bed. As it happened, Sheila was out of bed by this time and tending to a severely injured June. He barked at her to get the f*** down now, which the poor woman would have no choice but to have complied with before being shot the first time. Jeremy finishes off June between the eyes. Then comes the moment Jeremy turns white, when he realised Sheila needed a second shot to finish her off.
He positions the gun on her, making sure to get her print on there (just the 1 print mind) smugly plants the bible to shore up the deranged nature of his sisters actions, to leave no doubt, or so he thought. Then he goes about setting the scene, firing more shots where necessary.
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Broadly speaking that is how I see it too. We can build a picture from the scene how it went down. Your conclusions regarding Nevill make sense. Also with June evidence from the scene suggests that she staggered around the bed after the initial attack being finished off between the eyes.
When it comes to Sheila, Jeremy may have just pounced on her wherever he found her by the time he ran back upstairs following the unplanned detour by Nevill. As long as she wasn't in her bed. As it happened, Sheila was out of bed by this time and tending to a severely injured June. He barked at her to get the f*** down now, which the poor woman would have no choice but to have complied with before being shot the first time. Jeremy finishes off June between the eyes. Then comes the moment Jeremy turns white, when he realised Sheila needed a second shot to finish her off.
He positions the gun on her, making sure to get her print on there (just the 1 print mind) smugly plants the bible to shore up the deranged nature of his sisters actions, to leave no doubt, or so he thought. Then he goes about setting the scene, firing more shots where necessary.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻....and I agree that’s ridiculous to have only left one print. Another schoolboy error on his part. Your view on silencer? You believe it was used or not?
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But the phone call was proven to be a lie. If receiver was off the hook then it wouldn’t have cut off mid discussion and line certainly would have remained open. He wouldn’t have been able to call police or Julie. His statement to police on this site is incredible evasive and clearly he is lying therefore we have to assume that the call didn’t happen. Besides JB himself said his dad called him at 3am and woke him up so he couldn’t have died earlier in JB’s own words so he couldn’t have died before retiring.
Just so you know, I think he's guilty so I don't believe the phone call ever happened.
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I believe the silencer was used. He hid it well, not counting on Miss Marple conducting her own search.
Her prints would have been all over the gun. Mr Boutflour described an episode a few weeks before the murders where Jeremy had tried getting Sheila to load bullets into 'the thingy'
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I believe the silencer was used. He hid it well, not counting on Miss Marple conducting her own search.
Her prints would have been all over the gun. Mr Boutflour described an episode a few weeks before the murders where Jeremy had tried getting Sheila to load bullets into 'the thingy'
I agree. I believe he loaded it up and hid it the night before when he made up the rabit statement to police. Funny how he was the last person to touch the murder weapon eh! And he said it didn’t fit in case with silencer so conveniently by leaving it out he has pretty much admitted the silencer was on it
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Shooting rabbits is a nice convenient excuse just in case he is asked to submit to a paraffin test or whatever they used in 1985. He admitted to leaving a loaded gun in plain sight in the kitchen or scullery, when he knew kids were running around the house that weekend. As you say, In reality he couldn't leave in plain sight and must have hidden it. A furious Nevill would have noticed and secured it.
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I recall there was some suggestion from their Injuries that the parents were initially shot sitting up (June) or in the act of getting out of bed (Nevill), implying that he was at least partially ready for an intruder.
It's why some believe the children were shot first and Nevill heard the report from the silencer. By the time Jeremy ran across the landing to the parents bedroom for step 2, June and Nevill were awake.
I stand to be corrected on this, I had a look for the old thread on here but it must be buried somewhere under a misleading title.
The evidence shows June's head was on the pillow evidenced by the blood staining and two casings found within.
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*&(+(+
That's not really for you to say.
A soc reconstruction is the norm with shooting incidents. It wasn't carried out at trial or CoA hearing so is all to play for and imo will support JB's claims. Obviously the prosecution will have the opportunity to counter if applicable.
A
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But again, was ALL of the blood tested in the room? I read that there were several patches that were not tested therefore we can’t rule out NB blood wasn’t in room.
He could have lunged at JB hence led crouched or turning which could also give the desired trajectory body positions when lunging could be in any direction.
I am sure they cannot appeal on that basis. If they do it will be laughed at again. There’s no way you can overturn a murder verdict on what you have written. Too much ambiguity. Hence this discussion for us to work out how he killed them all. Unless they can overturn his phonecall lie (they can’t) AND the silencer evidence (they can’t) then I don’t see how he gets off.
35 years and counting. He will die there and hopefully has the guts to confess before he dies.
A soc reconstruction is the norm with shooting incidents. It hasn't happened so far but all the evidence is still avialabe.
New forensic tests are available to undermine the silencer evidence.
The above are based on scientific principles so no ambiguity.
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But the phone call was proven to be a lie. If receiver was off the hook then it wouldn’t have cut off mid discussion and line certainly would have remained open. He wouldn’t have been able to call police or Julie. His statement to police on this site is incredible evasive and clearly he is lying therefore we have to assume that the call didn’t happen. Besides JB himself said his dad called him at 3am and woke him up so he couldn’t have died earlier in JB’s own words so he couldn’t have died before retiring.
The phone call has never been proved or disproved.
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I believe the silencer was used. He hid it well, not counting on Miss Marple conducting her own search.
Her prints would have been all over the gun. Mr Boutflour described an episode a few weeks before the murders where Jeremy had tried getting Sheila to load bullets into 'the thingy'
The coating on firearms known as bluing is difficult to recover latent fingerprints from. So one fingerprint from JB and one from SC is consistent with JB handling on previous occasions and SC using to kill her family and commit suicide.
What about fingerprints on the silencer and cartridges?
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The evidence shows June's head was on the pillow evidenced by the blood staining and two casings found within.
You mean when first shot was received? Or all of them? Interesting. I thought I read she had been sitting up and body was outside the bed?
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Shooting rabbits is a nice convenient excuse just in case he is asked to submit to a paraffin test or whatever they used in 1985. He admitted to leaving a loaded gun in plain sight in the kitchen or scullery, when he knew kids were running around the house that weekend. As you say, In reality he couldn't leave in plain sight and must have hidden it. A furious Nevill would have noticed and secured it.
If safety was uppermost in NB's mind then why didn't the farmhouse have a way of storing firearms and ammo under lock and key? Firearms and ammo were left all over the place which may well have been a reason NB did not want the police turning up especially with NB being a local magistrate.
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A soc reconstruction is the norm with shooting incidents. It hasn't happened so far but all the evidence is still avialabe.
New forensic tests are available to undermine the silencer evidence.
The above are based on scientific principles so no ambiguity.
What forensic tests exactly? There’s nothing that can be used now that will change the fact that human blood that could be J,NB or Sheila was found in there. If anything I would say their best bet is to avoid the forensic route and just say that it was planted or tampered with as it wasn’t found by police.
Regardless of the silencer (as I think that’s the only thing that can be challenged), the lie on the phone call is bang to rights and there’s absolutely no going back on those awful statements where he tied himself in knots and incriminated himself trying to get himself an alibi 🙈🙈🙈
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A soc reconstruction is the norm with shooting incidents. It hasn't happened so far but all the evidence is still avialabe.
New forensic tests are available to undermine the silencer evidence.
The above are based on scientific principles so no ambiguity.
It's up to you but I think you need to shift away from that mindset Holly, that irrefutable scientific evidence can prove the conviction unsafe. Anything new that comes to light 35 years later will be very much open to other interpretation and thus will not stand up.
Jeremy will never see the light of day. Had he confessed at the outset he may, just may have been released on compassionate grounds as a frail octogenarian. But not now.
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The phone call has never been proved or disproved.
Yes it was. Which is why he was found guilty. The lie about the phone call and the silencer were the main points of the prosecution. If he received a call then line would have been open by nature of him leaving phone off the hook. Line was open and dog barking so he wouldn’t have been able to immediately dial out. Plus the 999 fiasco and changing statements about who he called first and what time. Thankfully jury believed the facts rather than his lie.
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If safety was uppermost in NB's mind then why didn't the farmhouse have a way of storing firearms and ammo under lock and key? Firearms and ammo were left all over the place which may well have been a reason NB did not want the police turning up especially with NB being a local magistrate.
Safety wasn't uppermost in his mind when it was just he and June there. His grandchildren were staying that weekend, it's different.
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Yes it was. Which is why he was found guilty. The lie about the phone call and the silencer were the main points of the prosecution. If he received a call then line would have been open by nature of him leaving phone off the hook. Line was open and dog barking so he wouldn’t have been able to immediately dial out. Plus the 999 fiasco and changing statements about who he called first and what time. Thankfully jury believed the facts rather than his lie.
No one knows on what grounds he was found guilty as jurors deliberations are kept private.
It has been suggested the blood/silencer evidence was key to jurors' decisions based on the fact jurors asked the judge to clarify aspects of the blood/silencer.
I say many aspects of the prosecution case are capable of bring undermined using 21st century science and technology. Ultimately it will be for appeal court judges to decide thankfully not posters on Internet forums.
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Safety wasn't uppermost in his mind when it was just he and June there. His grandchildren were staying that weekend, it's different.
So how were firearms/ammo stored when SC/JB were the same age as the twins?
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No one knows on what grounds he was found guilty as jurors deliberations are kept private.
It has been suggested the blood/silencer evidence was key to jurors' decisions based on the fact jurors asked the judge to clarify aspects of the blood/silencer.
I say many aspects of the prosecution case are capable of bring undermined using 21st century science and technology. Ultimately it will be for appeal court judges to decide thankfully not posters on Internet forums.
Indeed..... like twice before 👍🏻
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No one knows on what grounds he was found guilty as jurors deliberations are kept private.
It has been suggested the blood/silencer evidence was key to jurors' decisions based on the fact jurors asked the judge to clarify aspects of the blood/silencer.
I say many aspects of the prosecution case are capable of bring undermined using 21st century science and technology. Ultimately it will be for appeal court judges to decide thankfully not posters on Internet forums.
Like yourself?
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Like yourself?
Of course!
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Of course!
Then your opinion about the forensics and an over turned conviction is simply wishful thinking.
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Shooting rabbits is a nice convenient excuse just in case he is asked to submit to a paraffin test or whatever they used in 1985. He admitted to leaving a loaded gun in plain sight in the kitchen or scullery, when he knew kids were running around the house that weekend. As you say, In reality he couldn't leave in plain sight and must have hidden it. A furious Nevill would have noticed and secured it.
The law requires a lockable cabinet for guns. I have seen no sign that the law was complied with at WHF. Their attitude to gun safety seems to have been very casual.
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Then your opinion about the forensics and an over turned conviction is simply wishful thinking.
I believe new forensic tests on the blood/silencer will undermine it based on what has been achieved so far.
I've raised the fact a soc needs needs carrying out. I've put forward my theories which are irrelevant unless they can be endorsed by those appropriately qualified. As it stands a soc hasn't been carried out so of course people speculate about all sorts eg NB was shot in bedroom and NB wasn't shot in bedroom. A mountain of data exists which I believe will conclude where NB was shot upstairs.
The blood/silencer requires private funding as only this is capable of a referral. Once a referral is made JB becomes eligible for legal aid and other aspects can be pursued like soc reconstruction.
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Are there any men on here that think Jeremy is innocent? From what I’ve seen so far it’s mostly women that defend him. Just an observation so I am curious.
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Are there any men on here that think Jeremy is innocent? From what I’ve seen so far it’s mostly women that defend him. Just an observation so I am curious.
Do you think this forum is representative of all those who have an interest in the case?
If you go over to the IA forum (US domained) you will find all the male contributors believe SC responsible probably because they are all experienced with firearms.
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Any men here ?
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Any men here ?
What does it matter and how does anyone know who is behind the user names?
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as I say, just curious... I’ve found that most defenders of JB to be women. Just wondered if there are any men on here who genuinely think he is innocent. Fascinating as to why it is mostly women who defend him despite a mountain of evidence. So are there any men here ?
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as I say, just curious... I’ve found that most defenders of JB to be women. Just wondered if there are any men on here who genuinely think he is innocent. Fascinating as to why it is mostly women who defend him despite a mountain of evidence. So are there any men here ?
I'm female and the only regular poster here who believes SC was responsible but as I said I don't believe this forum is representative of all views.
JB is supported by former Tory MP Andrew Hunter along with many other males eg his former QC Michael Turner:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html
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I'm female and the only regular poster here who believes SC was responsible but as I said I don't believe this forum is representative of all views.
JB is supported by former Tory MP Andrew Hunter along with many other males eg his former QC Michael Turner:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html
Thanks.
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Most of his celebrity supporters, whilst not wanting to lose face and backtrack, keep notably silent now. Certainly compared to their loud protests during the golden age of free Bamber.
I'm sure most of our womenfolk think Bamber is guilty, these days.
At Bamber’s trial, the jury were divided, and found the defendant guilty by a 10-2 majority. As sentence was passed, two female jurors wept.
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Most of his celebrity supporters, whilst not wanting to lose face and backtrack, keep notably silent now. Certainly compared to their loud protests during the golden age of free Bamber.
I'm sure most of our womenfolk think Bamber is guilty, these days.
Wondering if he looked like he did now, would half of these women had supported him!
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Most of his celebrity supporters, whilst not wanting to lose face and backtrack, keep notably silent now. Certainly compared to their loud protests during the golden age of free Bamber.
I'm sure most of our womenfolk think Bamber is guilty, these days.
Celebrity supporters?
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Wondering if he looked like he did now, would half of these women had supported him!
I think you will find looks are subjective and in the eye of the beholder.
People are passionate and campaign about all sorts of issues eg Greta Thunberg re climate change nothing to do with looks.
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Celebrity supporters?
whatever they are, well known people. The noise is much decreased now.
The irony didn't escape me when even Bob Woffenden changed his mind. He was heavily involved in the James Hanratty alleged miscarriage of justice and campaigned for over a decade to have the victims underwear DNA tested. When the DNA proved Hanratty was the killer Woffenden cried contamination and refused to back down. Even though there was a 1 in 2.5 million chance it wasn't Hanratty. Contamination.
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I think you will find looks are subjective and in the eye of the beholder.
People are passionate and campaign about all sorts of issues eg Greta Thunberg re climate change nothing to do with looks.
She is a child and that is bordering on abuse what her parents have done but that’s another topic lol. But back on point, it’s not a coincidence that Bamber was good looking and yet all you can find online and on forums are women that defend him. Just an observation and one that ,unfortunately, you can’t disprove (as you said, you’re the only vocal JB defender here and you’re not a man). I think his looks played a massive part in his defence demographic. Reminds me of Bundy in that sense.
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whatever they are, well known people. The noise is much decreased now.
The irony didn't escape me when even Bob Woffenden changed his mind. He was heavily involved in the James Hanratty alleged miscarriage of justice and campaigned for over a decade to have the victims underwear DNA tested. When the DNA proved Hanratty was the killer Woffenden cried contamination and refused to back down. Even though there was a 1 in 2.5 million chance it wasn't Hanratty. Contamination.
The late Bob Woffenden is not a celebrity. I doubt anyone has heard of him outside his circle. In any event I don't see what makes his views any more or less valid than anyone who posts here? He was not a expert in any relevant field.
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She is a child and that is bordering on abuse what her parents have done but that’s another topic lol. But back on point, it’s not a coincidence that Bamber was good looking and yet all you can find online and on forums are women that defend him. Just an observation and one that ,unfortunately, you can’t disprove (as you said, you’re the only vocal JB defender here and you’re not a man). I think his looks played a massive part in his defence demographic. Reminds me of Bundy in that sense.
That's you opinion that JB was good looking.
David Bain is imo aesthetically challenged especially with his ears but he still had many female supporters.
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That's you opinion that JB was good looking.
David Bain is imo aesthetically challenged especially with his ears but he still had many female supporters.
Indeed. Definitely an opinion shared by many though and, just like bundy, he had many women defending his murders and having crush on him. Love is blind. Fascinating !
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Indeed. Definitely an opinion shared by many though and, just like bundy, he had many women defending his murders and having crush on him. Love is blind. Fascinating !
Who exactly shares the opinion that women defend JB based on his looks either then or now!?
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The late Bob Woffenden is not a celebrity. I doubt anyone has heard of him outside his circle. In any event I don't see what makes his views any more or less valid than anyone who posts here? He was not a expert in any relevant field.
It depends on what you mean by celebrity perhaps that's the incorrect term. There is no doubt the late Bob Woffenden was a respected crime writer with his own wiki page. Ok he was not exactly pop culture but certainly known outside his circle. It was a blow for Bamber when Woffenden switched, after refusing to back down on Hanratty when cornered by DNA
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Safety wasn't uppermost in his mind when it was just he and June there. His grandchildren were staying that weekend, it's different.
It's not a choice, it's the law and he was breaking it.
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It depends on what you mean by celebrity perhaps that's the incorrect term. There is no doubt the late Bob Woffenden was a respected crime writer with his own wiki page. Ok he was not exactly pop culture but certainly known outside his circle. It was a blow for Bamber when Woffenden switched, after refusing to back down on Hanratty when cornered by DNA
It will be a blow for JB if his third appeal. Is rejected by CoA other than this what difference does it make if the likes of BC and BW change sides?
An appellant is reliant on 3 appeal court judges not an old mate and a crime writer.
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I was answering your question following your statement about his well known supporters.
The mortal blow has already been struck, being denied leave for a 3rd appeal in 2012.
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They have not got anything they believe will get through the CCRC. Otherwise they would have submitted it & then started preparing for the COA.
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Who exactly shares the opinion that women defend JB based on his looks either then or now!?
Bamber himself ....
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1234075/white-house-farm-murders-itv-drama-jeremy-bamber-true-crime-prison-spt/amp
50 letters a week from female admirers..... although he lying about not putting bullets into two little children’s head so probably lying about this too.
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Bamber himself ....
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1234075/white-house-farm-murders-itv-drama-jeremy-bamber-true-crime-prison-spt/amp
50 letters a week from female admirers..... although he lying about not putting bullets into two little children’s head so probably lying about this too.
Just seen a certain somebody from here has been interacting with JB in prison. Really does explain everything. Absolutely priceless!!
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Did I miss it? Has no one worked out the order of the killings?
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Did I miss it? Has no one worked out the order of the killings?
I don't think we have any psychics posting at the moment.
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I don't think we have any psychics posting at the moment.
What was it? In the absence of other evidence the deceased are assumed to have died in order of their age?
So when they say Jeremy committed the murders are they also saying he was aware he had to kill them in the right order to gain the inheritance?
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What was it? In the absence of other evidence the deceased are assumed to have died in order of their age?
So when they say Jeremy committed the murders was are they also saying he was aware he had to kill them in the right order to gain the inheritance?
I don't think they were saying that - no.
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I don't think they were saying that - no.
So what order did the killings have to occur for the inheritance to come to Jeremy?
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So what order did the killings have to occur for the inheritance to come to Jeremy?
With everyone dead who had been mentioned in the wills which Bamber had read, that left him as the sole heir so it really didn't matter in which order they were murdered.
I think he took the opportunity to murder them when everyone who stood between him and his inheritance was under the same roof.
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With everyone dead who had been mentioned in the wills which Bamber had read, that left him as the sole heir so it really didn't matter in which order they were murdered.
I think he took the opportunity to murder them when everyone who stood between him and his inheritance was under the same roof.
In a documentary, I saw it was explained to Jeremy by his lawyer, I presume, the order of the deaths was important, so I wondering if anyone really figured it out, as to what order the victims were killed.
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In a documentary, I saw it was explained to Jeremy by his lawyer, I presume, the order of the deaths was important, so I wondering if anyone really figured it out, as to what order the victims were killed.
I think only the killer knows that.
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Yes it was. Which is why he was found guilty. The lie about the phone call and the silencer were the main points of the prosecution. If he received a call then line would have been open by nature of him leaving phone off the hook. Line was open and dog barking so he wouldn’t have been able to immediately dial out. Plus the 999 fiasco and changing statements about who he called first and what time. Thankfully jury believed the facts rather than his lie.
Are you saying Jeremy rings his home number from WHF to keep the line open? That would only work if there was someone back in the Goldhanger cottage to answer the call. So who answered the call if he rang himself from White House Farms?
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I'm female and the only regular poster here who believes SC was responsible but as I said I don't believe this forum is representative of all views.
JB is supported by former Tory MP Andrew Hunter along with many other males eg his former QC Michael Turner:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html
For my list of abbreviations who is SC please?
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Are you saying Jeremy rings his home number from WHF to keep the line open? That would only work if there was someone back in the Goldhanger cottage to answer the call. So who answered the call if he rang himself from White House Farms?
Have you never heard of an answer machine?
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Have you never heard of an answer machine?
Well was there an answering machine there?
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Well was there an answering machine there?
I believe I've already answered that
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I believe I've already answered that
You are quite a machine.
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Are you saying Jeremy rings his home number from WHF to keep the line open? That would only work if there was someone back in the Goldhanger cottage to answer the call. So who answered the call if he rang himself from White House Farms?
What do you mean 'keep the line open'? The line wasn't 'open' until the operator connected to it much later.
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What do you mean 'keep the line open'? The line wasn't 'open' until the operator connected to it much later.
All I can go off is the note in Court of Appeal Judgement
"68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available
these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call
having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the
caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a
sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the
handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been
replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an
automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the
appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
The words remain open are in there. "If such a
sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the
handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been
replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an
automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the
appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone."
So that fits perfectly with what Jeremy said, in that he rang back and got an engaged signal, not a fault signal.
https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf page 11.
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Having read through the trial transcript of DS Stanley Jones, he testified that Jeremy had questioned him about the order of the deaths, for Jeremy's accountant had told Jeremy the execution of the wills depend on the order of the killings.
I did see separately elsewhere, where it was explained how the properties could go to the Eaton side of the family in some scenarios. (forgotten the link ATM sorry). I do remember it stated that the order of the deaths will be assumed to be that the people die in order of age. Which is crazy of course for that would mean the kids died last but there was no one around to actually kill them.
Now what must be obvious to those who think Jeremy was the killer, is that he then is the only one who really knows the order of the killings, and he would be seeding various ideas around trying to promote a killing order that was favourable to him getting the inheritance, but so far I've seen absolutely no evidence of that.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1056.msg30126#msg30126
It looks from that evidence alone Jeremy is innocent.
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IMO the two boys were killed first for they remained asleep. The only person who would want the children overkilled would be the mother. One hollow nosed .22 bullet directly to the head is all that would be required to kill each of them. Obviously the child with the 5 bullets was first, only later would the bullets be rationed, so 3 for the next which left at least 1 for herself. There was no proof that the magazine had 10 bullets in it, Jeremy says 9 or 10 he didn't count.
Who reloads the magazine and who attaches the sound moderator is harder to work out.
The other aspect was that there ended up with more than 50 bullets in the house, and Jeremy states the magazine and the gun was empty, and the packet of bullets had already been opened so the original count should have been less than 50 not the 55 of the final count.
Someone else had brought another 5 or more bullets with them to the scene.
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All I can go off is the note in Court of Appeal Judgement
"68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available
these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call
having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the
caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a
sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the
handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been
replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an
automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the
appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
The words remain open are in there. "If such a
sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the
handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been
replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an
automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the
appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone."
So that fits perfectly with what Jeremy said, in that he rang back and got an engaged signal, not a fault signal.
https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf page 11.
The phone handset was just taken off the hook, no call was made to Goldhanger. It wasn't connected to any call.
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The phone handset was just taken off the hook, no call was made to Goldhanger. It wasn't connected to any call.
In the photos of the crime scene "the phone handset was just taken off the hook". We can't tell the reason it was off the hook. From the type of phone, there was it possible to determine the last number dialed? I know my old phone had a redial button. Did the phone have a redial button?
After hours of being off the hook all line connections were lost.
If someone had rung Jeremy from the WHF using that phone and then hung up, that person could have used that phone to ring other people after that. So even knowing the last number called from that phone would be interesting it wouldn't mean Jeremy was lying.
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IMO the two boys were killed first for they remained asleep. The only person who would want the children overkilled would be the mother. One hollow nosed .22 bullet directly to the head is all that would be required to kill each of them. Obviously the child with the 5 bullets was first, only later would the bullets be rationed, so 3 for the next which left at least 1 for herself. There was no proof that the magazine had 10 bullets in it, Jeremy says 9 or 10 he didn't count.
Who reloads the magazine and who attaches the sound moderator is harder to work out.
The other aspect was that there ended up with more than 50 bullets in the house, and Jeremy states the magazine and the gun was empty, and the packet of bullets had already been opened so the original count should have been less than 50 not the 55 of the final count.
Someone else had brought another 5 or more bullets with them to the scene.
Even before the police enter the house a rifle is seen leaning against a window. WPS Julia Jeapes - Firearms instructor http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=179.0
There is insufficient detail to say it was the same rifle as photographed on Sheila's lap later.
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Even before the police enter the house a rifle is seen leaning against a window. WPS Julia Jeapes - Firearms instructor http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=179.0
There is insufficient detail to say it was the same rifle as photographed on Sheila's lap later.
Jeapes didn't say it was a rifle, she said there was something that 'appeared' to be a rifle but no rifle was found where she indicated.
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Jeapes didn't say it was a rifle, she said there was something that 'appeared' to be a rifle but no rifle was found where she indicated.
Most likely a broom stale or a sash window pole.
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Most likely a broom stale or a sash window pole.
Or did someone get to move it?
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Jeapes didn't say it was a rifle, she said there was something that 'appeared' to be a rifle but no rifle was found where she indicated.
Firearms officer can't identify a rifle at a glance? Computer say no.
She could probably tell you when it was last cleaned at a glance.
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Firearms officer can't identify a rifle at a glance? Computer say no.
She could probably tell you when it was last cleaned at a glance.
Which is why she said she saw what 'appeared' to be a rifle! Not 'in my professional opinion (and I know a rifle when I see one), there was definitely a rifle in that window or my name isn't Julia Jeaps.'
Did you forget that you came here claiming you thought Bamber was guilty? How does a disappearing rifle in the box room window fit with that? Computer says no!
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Even before the police enter the house a rifle is seen leaning against a window. WPS Julia Jeapes - Firearms instructor http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=179.0
There is insufficient detail to say it was the same rifle as photographed on Sheila's lap later.
When the house was surrounded by over 50 police officers, who all believed according to Jeremy, that Sheila was inside with a gun holding her family hostage, so they were all actively LOOKING for a gun. Police are human beings and as nervous as anyone else.
The PC, who wasn’t a firearms officer, “thought” she saw something that “could” have been a gun leaning by a window.
In the event, when the armed raid team broke in soon after, there was no gun there at all. It was simply a trick of the PC’s imagination as she actively looked for one whilst standing outside.
The police went all through the house and the only gun they found was the one Jeremy had staged on Sheila’s lap.
Sheila had clearly been dead for many hours as she had liver mortis, blue mottling on her left arm, back and posterior, and was entering rigor mortis. Everyone else had been dead several hours too.
There were guns in Nevill’s gun cupboard, which hadn’t been touched by Sheila, including old broken guns in a store room filled with the usual broken things people sometimes store before dumping them...but there was no gun by the window. It was simply a shape of something resembling one that put the young PC on high alert as she was looking for one.
That’s all. Simple as that.
And it was established too.
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Well there is a photo of a gun leaning by a window. Are you aware of that photo?
When you say "Sheila had clearly been dead for many hours as she had liver mortis, blue mottling on her left arm, back and posterior, and was entering rigor mortis. Everyone else had been dead several hours too." do you think Sheila was deceased longer than the other adults?
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Which is why she said she saw what 'appeared' to be a rifle! Not 'in my professional opinion (and I know a rifle when I see one), there was definitely a rifle in that window or my name isn't Julia Jeaps.'
Did you forget that you came here claiming you thought Bamber was guilty? How does a disappearing rifle in the box room window fit with that? Computer says no!
I've got no idea of the context - I'm not that arsed, to be honest.
I've read 3 books on the subject, two of which were disappointing to say the least and I've read most of the stuff in the links here. (I also purchased White House Farm on Amazon over weekend and watched it - I thought it was crap) And those in the know, such as yourself, have provided great insight. I've already stated that there's no mystery here and I'm not emotionally involved, like some, so I just interject with banalities here and there - keeps me, as the youngest member of the forum, ticking over.
I'm way more interested in the psychology than the crime.
I just know the simple fact, when you live and breath weapons you get to spot them and size them up immediately. A trained firearms officer should be able to determine a rifle from a mop - that's it. I don't give one if this observation doesn't fit the narrative.
Bamber still did it. There ya go. Better?
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Was there somewhere in the house that someone could have hidden away? The only time to remove the gun seen by the window is prior to the storming of the building. Is that a possibility?
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Was there somewhere in the house that someone could have hidden away? The only time to remove the gun seen by the window is prior to the storming of the building. Is that a possibility?
Pretty sure there were plenty of hiding places in the house, but everyone was accounted for, so no.
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Pretty sure there were plenty of hiding places in the house, but everyone was accounted for, so no.
I'm just listening to a YouTube produced by the Bamber supporters "Timeline of evidence which proves Jeremy Bamber is an innocent man" and around the https://youtu.be/c1NMk5tKFHM?t=444 position they mention seeing some movement in the house.
Like could there be someone else in the building? Who hid till the coast was clear.
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I'm just listening to a YouTube produced by the Bamber supporters "Timeline of evidence which proves Jeremy Bamber is an innocent man" and around the https://youtu.be/c1NMk5tKFHM?t=444 position they mention seeing some movement in the house.
Like could there be someone else in the building? Who hid till the coast was clear.
Most likely the dog.
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Most likely the dog.
I wonder where the dog cane from?
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I wonder where the dog cane from?
BOOOOOOMMM!!!!
That was my head exploding. You made that happen, Rob.
8()(((@#
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BOOOOOOMMM!!!!
That was my head exploding. You made that happen, Rob.
8()(((@#
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. A dog will normally be at the door when someone is outside trying to get in.
But if there was someone hiding in the house the dog may have stuck close to the person hiding, but when the police came in it would have come from the general direction of the person's hideout.
So from which direction did the dog come from? Which room?
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Maybe I wasn't clear enough. A dog will normally be at the door when someone is outside trying to get in.
But if there was someone hiding in the house the dog may have stuck close to the person hiding, but when the police came in it would have come from the general direction of the person's hideout.
So from which direction did the dog come from? Which room?
Mate, everyone was dead! The dog was shitting itself under a bed.
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Mate, everyone was dead! The dog was shitting itself under a bed.
It is a bit surprising the shooter didn't finish the dog off as well.
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It is a bit surprising the shooter didn't finish the dog off as well.
I believe all rounds were expended, 25 in total - so 10 in the mag, 1 in the breach, reload fully once, reload partially with the final 4. (IIRC)
I'm sure he could have gone and retrieved a few more and dispatched Crispy - but that's time consuming and pointless.
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I wonder where the dog cane from?
Well, you see, there is a mummy doggy and a daddy doggy and when they like each other very much .......
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When the house was surrounded by over 50 police officers, who all believed according to Jeremy, that Sheila was inside with a gun holding her family hostage, so they were all actively LOOKING for a gun. Police are human beings and as nervous as anyone else.
The PC, who wasn’t a firearms officer, “thought” she saw something that “could” have been a gun leaning by a window.
In the event, when the armed raid team broke in soon after, there was no gun there at all. It was simply a trick of the PC’s imagination as she actively looked for one whilst standing outside.
The police went all through the house and the only gun they found was the one Jeremy had staged on Sheila’s lap.
Sheila had clearly been dead for many hours as she had liver mortis, blue mottling on her left arm, back and posterior, and was entering rigor mortis. Everyone else had been dead several hours too.
There were guns in Nevill’s gun cupboard, which hadn’t been touched by Sheila, including old broken guns in a store room filled with the usual broken things people sometimes store before dumping them...but there was no gun by the window. It was simply a shape of something resembling one that put the young PC on high alert as she was looking for one.
That’s all. Simple as that.
And it was established too.
So, first there is movement at the window, which is thought to be a person, but which is later dismissed as a "trick of the light" (or something to that effect). Then, there is a gun by a window, and that turned out to be a trick of somebody's imagination too. Not a gun, it just looked like a gun???
No wonder some of us ask questions!
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Well, you see, there is a mummy doggy and a daddy doggy and when they like each other very much .......
.......One and one often result in several more than two!
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So, first there is movement at the window, which is thought to be a person, but which is later dismissed as a "trick of the light" (or something to that effect). Then, there is a gun by a window, and that turned out to be a trick of somebody's imagination too. Not a gun, it just looked like a gun???
No wonder some of us ask questions!
The officers who thought they saw movement checked it out at the time and if I'm not mistaken, in Bamber's presence ... they ascertained that there definitely was no human movement involved as they replicated the effect of movement and it was a reflection on the glass.
They did question what they thought they saw ... at the time ... they checked it ... at the time ... and by doing so ruled it out.
I don't see what there is to question about that.
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So, first there is movement at the window, which is thought to be a person, but which is later dismissed as a "trick of the light" (or something to that effect). Then, there is a gun by a window, and that turned out to be a trick of somebody's imagination too. Not a gun, it just looked like a gun???
No wonder some of us ask questions!
That is what Jeapes said - she saw what 'appeared' to be a rifle. Remember, these officers were on high alert because they thought there was someone armed with a rifle obviously that is going to influence them.
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The officers who thought they saw movement checked it out at the time and if I'm not mistaken, in Bamber's presence ... they ascertained that there definitely was no human movement involved as they replicated the effect of movement and it was a reflection on the glass.
They did question what they thought they saw ... at the time ... they checked it ... at the time ... and by doing so ruled it out.
I don't see what there is to question about that.
I was commenting more on the fact that there were two separate sightings that, apparently, turned out to be mistakes.
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I was commenting more on the fact that there were two separate sightings that, apparently, turned out to be mistakes.
They weren't mistakes, just in a heightened situation adrenalin takes over. We don't have all of the CS pictures and none of the box room. There may be a completely reasonable explanation. Did you ever wonder that what has been put in the public domaine is quite deliberate in order creat a specific point of view?
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Just seen a certain somebody from here has been interacting with JB in prison. Really does explain everything. Absolutely priceless!!
Who’s that, Gadget?😳
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They weren't mistakes, just in a heightened situation adrenalin takes over. We don't have all of the CS pictures and none of the box room. There may be a completely reasonable explanation. Did you ever wonder that what has been put in the public domaine is quite deliberate in order creat a specific point of view?
I think I understand what you're getting at, and yes, of course you may well be right.
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Well, you see, there is a mummy doggy and a daddy doggy and when they like each other very much .......
Crunch crunch ....
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So, first there is movement at the window, which is thought to be a person, but which is later dismissed as a "trick of the light" (or something to that effect). Then, there is a gun by a window, and that turned out to be a trick of somebody's imagination too. Not a gun, it just looked like a gun???
No wonder some of us ask questions!
And didn't someone mention a basement? Do the police inspecting the house on the 7th go into a basement?
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And didn't someone mention a basement? Do the police inspecting the house on the 7th go into a basement?
Trying to solve the mystery as where someone could hide at White House Farm was there a basement? I have found a reference to a cellar. A Cellar or basement is roughly the same thing.
CAL (author) mentions the cellar. "It was harder to avoid the wooden slats of the cellar entrance directly below the window outside, which would have made a loud noise if stepped on in the dead of night." https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166636/Bamber-slaughtered-family-25-bullets-told-girlfriend-s-going-years-investigation-leading-author-tell-exactly-happened-night-White-House-Farm-massacre.html
So was the cellar only accessible from the outside?
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Another reference with an internal access to the cellar.
""in the kitchen by the doorway to the hall were two stools which were laying down on the floor blocking a covering position into the hall, these stools were moved to near the kitchen table. In the hallway the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time. PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him. A window in the dining room was unlocked and opened to allow an escape route if needed, this window was later shut and secured. The door to the bedroom opposite the children's room was locked and this was forced to allow access"."
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Did the police go down into the basement/cellar even though the stairway was collapsing?
What I'm thinking is the first report was there were two bodies found downstairs but later that was downgraded to just one (Nevill Bamber). Was there someone else just pretending to be deceased?
Or was it a ghost?
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I submit the cellar was not checked on the night.
"In the hallway, the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the
the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time.
PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him."
https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf
that to me suggests the cellar was too risky to check.
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Well there is a photo of a gun leaning by a window. Are you aware of that photo?
When you say "Sheila had clearly been dead for many hours as she had liver mortis, blue mottling on her left arm, back and posterior, and was entering rigor mortis. Everyone else had been dead several hours too." do you think Sheila was deceased longer than the other adults?
The photo of the rifle by the window was taken by the police photographer after they’d raided and after the placed the gun by the window to prepare Sheila for being removed to the mortuary.
Can you please read the case? You’re asking questions that aren’t relevant.
Jeremy shot Sheila dead last, but it would’ve been within the same time frame as when he shot his parents and nephews.
Rigor Mortis varies depending on the individual, the atmosphere, outside temperature etc.
Nevill was by the Aga which was on low, so his decomposition would have been quicker.
They did all have rigor mortis at varying degrees, due to the factors I mentioned.
I can’t recall who said it, but some bright spark suggested the raid team felt for a pulse on Sheila and in doing so, the gun fell, which is nonsense. And photos prove that.
But I can promise you that no police officer would have checked for pulses when it was evident they were all dead. Why do you think they didn’t call the paramedics in who were waiting outside?
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The photo of the rifle by the window was taken by the police photographer after they’d raided and after the placed the gun by the window to prepare Sheila for being removed to the mortuary.
Can you please read the case? You’re asking questions that aren’t relevant.
Jeremy shot Sheila dead last, but it would’ve been within the same time frame as when he shot his parents and nephews.
Rigor Mortis varies depending on the individual, the atmosphere, outside temperature etc.
Nevill was by the Aga which was on low, so his decomposition would have been quicker.
They did all have rigor mortis at varying degrees, due to the factors I mentioned.
I can’t recall who said it, but some bright spark suggested the raid team felt for a pulse on Sheila and in doing so, the gun fell, which is nonsense. And photos prove that.
But I can promise you that no police officer would have checked for pulses when it was evident they were all dead. Why do you think they didn’t call the paramedics in who were waiting outside?
Some one at sometime had to determine for the record they were dead,if not the first to arrive who then?
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That's you opinion that JB was good looking.
David Bain is imo aesthetically challenged especially with his ears but he still had many female supporters.
Actually, Holly...it’s you who thinks he’s good-looking *%87
You said previously that who you find VERY, VERY good-looking, is Freddie Fox who played Jeremy Bamber in WHF.
So, although he isn’t a double, he looks similar...although I personally don’t find either of them remotely attractive.
Not one iota.
When Jeremy was young I can see how some girls would have found him attractive, but he certainly wasn’t anything special.
It’s quite telling how all his obsessed supporters (including himself) post pictures of him taken 30 years ago. There’s only one recent one — and even thats 10 years old. He’s about 60 now; has white thinning hair; spectacles; and like all people his character has embedded itself into his face...
One reported who went to visit him a few years ago remarked how surprised he was when Jeremy hobbled in. He said that although he clearly worked out on his chest, he legs were thin (something like that); he had great big drooping jowls; looked YEARS older than his age; had a sickly grey complexion and “cold, dead eyes”
I’ve got it somewhere and will post it
I wonder if that’s why Jeremy hasn’t put a recent mugshot up?
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So, first there is movement at the window, which is thought to be a person, but which is later dismissed as a "trick of the light" (or something to that effect). Then, there is a gun by a window, and that turned out to be a trick of somebody's imagination too. Not a gun, it just looked like a gun???
No wonder some of us ask questions!
The “movement “ wasn’t dismissed LATER: it was dismissed almost IMMEDIATELY
Try reading the official account from the officers, then you won’t have to ask silly questions
There was NO gun at the window: the gun at the window was when the police officers moved it
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Some one at sometime had to determine for the record they were dead,if not the first to arrive who then?
The police knew they were all dead — you can tell if someone’s dead just by looking at them — and these were trained police officers
They sent the paramedics away as they weren’t needed
They brought in the local GP who confirmed they were dead by just looking at them, and noted the time, I think he arrived around 8:30am
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Some one at sometime had to determine for the record they were dead,if not the first to arrive who then?
Of course they would have checked that they were dead.
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The police knew they were all dead — you can tell if someone’s dead just by looking at them — and these were trained police officers
They sent the paramedics away as they weren’t needed
They brought in the local GP who confirmed they were dead by just looking at them, and noted the time, I think he arrived around 8:30am
A GP confirms death just by looking at someone? I very much doubt it-----although I agree, he or she would have a good idea.
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A GP confirms death just by looking at someone? I very much doubt it-----although I agree, he or she would have a good idea.
You’re wrong
A doctor can tell immediately if someone is dead just by looking at them,
The very most they’ll do, if asked by police, is take the temperature of their body to try and determine an approximate time they died.
You’ve obviously never seen a dead body
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You’re wrong
A doctor can tell immediately if someone is dead just by looking at them,
The very most they’ll do, if asked by police, is take the temperature of their body to try and deeming an approximate time they died.
You’ve obviously never seen a dead body
Yes, of course a doctor could tell---but I would think he/she would have to document this, eg "no pulse" or "rigor mortis".
You have no idea what I have "obviously" done or not done!
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Yes, of course a doctor could tell---but I would think he/she would have to document this, eg "no pulse" or "rigor mortis".
You have no idea what I have "obviously" done or not done!
No pulse...!
So when a doctor’s called to confirm a death of someone who’s been decapitated do they check for a pulse, then write notes “no pulse”?
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You’re wrong
A doctor can tell immediately if someone is dead just by looking at them,
The very most they’ll do, if asked by police, is take the temperature of their body to try and deeming an approximate time they died.
You’ve obviously never seen a dead body
I have and despite my old man being obviously dead a doctor confirmed as much in front of me.
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I have and despite my old man being obviously dead a doctor confirmed as much in front of me.
How long had your “old man” been dead, Barrier?
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A GP confirms death just by looking at someone? I very much doubt it-----although I agree, he or she would have a good idea.
All the family had rigor mortis at differing stages, including livor mortis which can be seen. You can even see it in the pictures of the family. Sheila’s left arm was BLUE. Her eyes were partially open as were June’s. You don’t even NEED to be a doctor to see that they’ve been dead for HOURS.
So if you think a doctor needs to check for a pulse when someone has rigor mortis, I’d hate to have the doctors you see.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/how-to-tell-if-someone-is-dead-signs
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A GP confirms death just by looking at someone? I very much doubt it-----although I agree, he or she would have a good idea.
Mrs Wah, do you think the doctor had a “good idea” that June was dead by looking at her?
She had mottling, livor mortis, rigor mortis and her eyes were wide open.
Do you think doctors are so thick they would check for a pulse just in case they’re alive, when they’ve already entered rigor mortis?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The likely order is
Daniel & Nicholas -Two shots.
June - Five shots.
Nevill - Four shots.
Nevill - Four shots again.
June - Two shots.
Sheila - One shot.
Daniel & Nicholas - Six shots.
Sheila - One shot.
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He may have meant to only fire 3 shots into Nevill, leaving a bullet for Sheila. However Nevill moving changed that.
Or the over kill may have been the plan. Four accurrate head shots into Nevill would have either killed him or negated him & given Bamber time to re load downstairs.
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The likely order is
Daniel & Nicholas -Two shots.
June - Five shots.
Nevill - Four shots.
Nevill - Four shots again.
June - Two shots.
Sheila - One shot.
Daniel & Nicholas - Six shots.
Sheila - One shot.
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He may have meant to only fire 3 shots into Nevill, leaving a bullet for Sheila. However Nevill moving changed that.
Or the over kill may have been the plan. Four accurrate head shots into Nevill would have either killed him or negated him & given Bamber time to re load downstairs.
That sounds spot on, Adam
The extra bullets he fired into the twins was to try and create someone going crazy, but here’s the problem with that:
If someone was going berserk shots would be firing all over the place.
Everywhere.
Yet EVERY SINGLE BULLET went into EVERYONE’S HEAD. Every bullet.
No-one who’s going berserk could aim so accurately, especially when they’ve never used a gun in their life.
Jeremy Bamber is so thick in many ways...
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That sounds spot on, Adam
The extra bullets he fired into the twins was to try and create someone going crazy, but here’s the problem with that:
If someone was going berserk shots would be firing all over the place.
Everywhere.
Yet EVERY SINGLE BULLET went into EVERYONE’S HEAD. Every bullet.
No-one who’s going berserk could aim so accurately, especially when they’ve never used a gun in their life.
Jeremy Bamber is so thick in many ways...
We keep hearing from supporters what a crack shot Jeremy was so he would have finished them all of with one strategically placed shot, ergo, it couldn't have been Jeremy. Now, WHY do they think that he'd be keen for the world to see the evidence of his prowess when he wanted his gun incompetent sister to get the blame. He HAD to make it look random and manic. Part of the problem was that every bullet went home. Something I don't believe would have occurred if the gun had been in the hands of a novice.
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That sounds spot on, Adam
The extra bullets he fired into the twins was to try and create someone going crazy, but here’s the problem with that:
If someone was going berserk shots would be firing all over the place.
Everywhere.
Yet EVERY SINGLE BULLET went into EVERYONE’S HEAD. Every bullet.
No-one who’s going berserk could aim so accurately, especially when they’ve never used a gun in their life.
Jeremy Bamber is so thick in many ways...
Yet EVERY SINGLE BULLET went into EVERYONE’S HEAD. Every bullet. That is not true.
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Yet EVERY SINGLE BULLET went into EVERYONE’S HEAD. Every bullet. That is not true.
OK, Jeremy aimed for Nevill’s head on the stairs/landing and it hit his face — part of one’s HEAD.
One hit his shoulder CLOSE to his head.
Jeremy Bamber was AIMING for Nevill’s HEAD
In the kitchen Jeremy shot four bullets into Nevill’s HEAD.
He shot the twins in their HEADS
He had to shoot Sheila in the neck hoping the bullet would go to her brain — inside her HEAD
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OK, Jeremy aimed for Nevill’s head on the stairs/landing and it hit his face — part of one’s HEAD.
One hit his shoulder CLOSE to his head.
Jeremy Bamber was AIMING for Nevill’s HEAD
In the kitchen Jeremy shot four bullets into Nevill’s HEAD.
He shot the twins in their HEADS
He had to shoot Sheila in the neck hoping the bullet would go to her brain — inside her HEAD
I read today that June had shots to the legs and abdomen. I don't know the full details. But I think you'd be right if you said the majority of the shots were to the head.
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Mrs Wah, do you think the doctor had a “good idea” that June was dead by looking at her?
She had mottling, livor mortis, rigor mortis and her eyes were wide open.
Do you think doctors are so thick they would check for a pulse just in case they’re alive, when they’ve already entered rigor mortis?
Of course the doctor would have known she was dead.
I would imagine doctors have to do checks (even if, to us, they're a waste of time) and document their findings.
That is all I was saying-----if you find evidence that I'm wrong, let me know!
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How long had your “old man” been dead, Barrier?
8 hrs,the Doctor had to confirm before the undertaker would deal with him.
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8 hrs,the Doctor had to confirm before the undertaker would deal with him.
I imagine, however dead someone is, the formality of pronouncing life extinct must be adhered to.
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I imagine, however dead someone is, the formality of pronouncing life extinct must be adhered to.
My thoughts also, just imagine if Sheila being the last to be shot and only receiving two shots at that. somehow survived,how would they know if no sign of life was looked for.
Edit to add,the chap yesterday who its thought was in some kind of altercation with youths using catapults was pronounced dead at the scene,some one has do do it.
'Officers and South East Coast Ambulance Service attended and a man in his 60s was pronounced dead at the scene.
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I imagine, however dead someone is, the formality of pronouncing life extinct must be adhered to.
Is the right answer. It's a legal requirement.
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My thoughts also, just imagine if Sheila being the last to be shot and only receiving two shots at that. somehow survived,how would they know if no sign of life was looked for.
She didn’t survive, she was shot dead — the first bullet fractured her spine and ripped into her throat causing a massive blood spill and pool in her neck (which can be seen)
The second bullet went through her brain
Sheila was killed in the early hours ...hence why she she had mottling and was going into rigor mortis
So, in answer to your question, doctors would not look for pulses/signs of life when a body has livor mortis (blue mottling); the eyes are open or semi/open with fixed pupils; they are starting to decompose (bodies give off gases and the smell of decomposition starts quickly); and it’s obvious to anybody (especially a doctor ) that they’ve been dead for hours
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She didn’t survive, she was shot dead — the first bullet fractured her spine and ripped into her throat causing a massive blood spill and pool in her neck (which can be seen)
The second bullet went through her brain
Sheila was killed in the early hours ...hence why she she had mottling and was going into rigor mortis
So, in answer to your question, doctors would not look for pulses/signs of life when a body ihas livor mortis (blue mottling); the eyes are open or semi/open with fixed pupils; they are starting to decompose (bodies give off gases and the smell of decomposition starts quickly); and it’s obvious to anybody (espeially a doctor ) that they’ve been dead for hours
Spy, I feel certain that, when we've reached the stage of decomposition, it's no more than a cursory check, but it MUST be done. 'We', at that point have become the point of a check-list which must be seen to be completed at each stage until we're committed to either the oven, or the earth. It's not about OUR welfare, you understand -'WE' are dead- it's about the ubiquitous "they" being able to prove we were definitely so with out fear of being sued for compensation.
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She didn’t survive, she was shot dead — the first bullet fractured her spine and ripped into her throat causing a massive blood spill and pool in her neck (which can be seen)
The second bullet went through her brain
Sheila was killed in the early hours ...hence why she she had mottling and was going into rigor mortis
So, in answer to your question, doctors would not look for pulses/signs of life when a body has livor mortis (blue mottling); the eyes are open or semi/open with fixed pupils; they are starting to decompose (bodies give off gases and the smell of decomposition starts quickly); and it’s obvious to anybody (especially a doctor ) that they’ve been dead for hours
Hindsight expert 30 odd years after the fact.
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From looking at that photo of Sheila yesterday it has reinforced my opinion the shots were fired by her and in quite a quick succession.
To begin with, I thought she may have delayed the second shot but not now.
What does the forum think?
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From looking at that photo of Sheila yesterday it has reinforced my opinion the shots were fired by her and in quite a quick succession.
To begin with, I thought she may have delayed the second shot but not now.
What does the forum think?
Rob, when someone has been shot, in the main, the take leave of their senses.
Many cry for their mum, would you believe. Their motor skills abandon them. They are generally incapacitated.
The coroner apparently had dealt with '4 two shot suicides' in his 30 or so years and I have no reason to doubt.
And a .22 is on the lower scale of stopping power, granted. But wee Sheila experiencing the searing pain of a gunshot wound to the neck, then mustering the wherewithal and balls to do it again? Never.
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From looking at that photo of Sheila yesterday it has reinforced my opinion the shots were fired by her and in quite a quick succession.
To begin with, I thought she may have delayed the second shot but not now.
What does the forum think?
Not in a million years.
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Rob, when someone has been shot, in the main, the take leave of their senses.
Many cry for their mum, would you believe. Their motor skills abandon them. They are generally incapacitated.
The coroner apparently had dealt with '4 two shot suicides' in his 30 or so years and I have no reason to doubt.
And a .22 is on the lower scale of stopping power, granted. But wee Sheila experiencing the searing pain of a gunshot wound to the neck, then mustering the wherewithal and balls to do it again? Never.
That might be true historically but looking at the bleeding pattern I'd say the two shots were in quick succession.
This can only be an opinion but I base it on the experience of years of supervising a slaughterhouse, where at times we had to use rifles to dispatch animals.
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Not in a million years.
What doesn't happen in a million years.
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That might be true historically but looking at the bleeding pattern I'd say the two shots were in quick succession.
This can only be an opinion but I base it on the experience of years of supervising a slaughterhouse, where at times we had to use rifles to dispatch animals.
Animals shoot themselves often did they?
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Animals shoot themselves often did they?
I'm sure they would if they could.
In my job, I was always looking for clues as to whether the staff members were telling me the truth or not.
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That might be true historically but looking at the bleeding pattern I'd say the two shots were in quick succession.
This can only be an opinion but I base it on the experience of years of supervising a slaughterhouse, where at times we had to use rifles to dispatch animals.
Yes mate, Jeremy Bamber shot Sheila twice in relatively quick succession, finishing the job with the 2nd shot.
I reckon the whole atrocity was essentially over in about 3 / 4 minutes.
There's a chance he had to frig about with the moderator, as it became apparent that the rifle was too long for Sheila to physically reach the trigger (even with a thumb, as is the mode with a shotgun suicide - or even a big toe).
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Yes mate, Jeremy Bamber shot Sheila twice in relatively quick succession, finishing the job with the 2nd shot.
I reckon the whole atrocity was essentially over in about 3 / 4 minutes.
There's a chance he had to frig about with the moderator, as it became apparent that the rifle was too long for Sheila to physically reach the trigger (even with a thumb, as is the mode with a shotgun suicide - or even a big toe).
Right, in your scenario just think about the timing between the two shots*. Why would there be minutes? OK once Sheila is dead there could be repositioning of the nightdress and the gun (removal of the silencer) and definitely placement of the Bible. The time taken to do all this is not the time I'm thinking of, but just the time interval between the two shots.
If Jeremy wasn't there, there still needs to be a 3rd party to make these alterations to the crime scene.
*There would be a delay if the gun ran out of ammo between the first and second shots.
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8 hrs,the Doctor had to confirm before the undertaker would deal with him.
I’m sorry to hear that, Barrier
It must have been traumatic for you
You obviously realised he was dead when you found him, yess?
When the doctor came to certify he was dead did he look for a pulse?
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My thoughts also, just imagine if Sheila being the last to be shot and only receiving two shots at that. somehow survived,how would they know if no sign of life was looked for.
Edit to add,the chap yesterday who its thought was in some kind of altercation with youths using catapults was pronounced dead at the scene,some one has do do it.
'Officers and South East Coast Ambulance Service attended and a man in his 60s was pronounced dead at the scene.
Yes, of course a doctor has to pronounce someone dead, and like poor man you mention I’m sure the doctor did indeed check for usual signs that life was extinct as he’d not been dead that long. Likewise, is fine dies in hospital the doctor will check for vital signs (pulse, pupil reaction etc) but that’s when they’ve just died.
In the case of murders, suicides, fatal accidents, unexplained deaths etc where the deceased haven been found for many hours, they develop hypothesis, rigor mortis, non-reactive pupils, plus various other biological features. When someone has rigor mortis there’s no need to check for a pulse.
I’ve taken this excerpt from a site for medical doctors which explains what features design death.
You’ll see rigor mortis and hypostasis are signs not just that they’re dead, but have been for several hours.
“Particularly if the death is unexpected, an external examination of the deceased and their surroundings should be made, to look for any apparent factors which may be relevant to their death (bleeding, vomit, wounds, weapons, alcohol, pills, notes, etc).
Other signs include:
No response to painful stimuli.
Absence of corneal reflexes.
Cloudiness of the cornea.
Examination of the trunk may show evidence of post-mortem staining as a result of hypostasis.
Rigor mortis may have set in (begins approximately three hours after death).
Decreased temperature - will depend on ambient temperature but may not occur for up to eight hours.”
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I’m sorry to hear that, Barrier
It must have been traumatic for you
You obviously realised he was dead when you found him, yess?
When the doctor came to certify he was dead did he look for a pulse?
Not traumatic at all,could say good bye that way rather than a nondescript box lowered in the ground,and yes he felt for a pulse,the old fella had a heart attack so looked asleep.
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Hindsight expert 30 odd years after the fact.
That isn’t hindsight, Barrier — I’ve merely repeated what happened 😳
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Not traumatic at all,could say good bye that way rather than a nondescript box lowered in the ground,and yes he felt for a pulse,the old fella had a heart attack so looked asleep.
But you said he’d been dead for eight hours
He wouldn’t look like he was asleep — he’d have been discoloured and besides looking obviously dead there’d have been an unpleasant aroma
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But you said he’d been dead for eight hours
He wouldn’t look like he was asleep — he’d have been discoloured and besides looking obviously dead there’d have been an unpleasant aroma
No there wasn't,it was winter,the fire hadn't been lit.I'm talking 1983,central heating was for posh folk.
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No there wasn't,it was winter,the fire hadn't been lit.I'm talking 1983,central heating was for posh folk.
But all bodies develop mottling and rigor mortis regardless of the outside temperature; heat merely speeds decomposition up.
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I mentioned how the order of the deaths could affect the potential to claim part of the estate but I wasn't familiar with the details. In this fictional account, there was a section explaining the workings of this factor.
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-4-shawtesko.html
"At one stage Jeremy asked: ‘Can you tell which order they were killed in?’
Stan leapt at that. ‘What did you ask that for, Jeremy?’
Jeremy shrugged, murmured that it affected the various wills.
For twenty-one years, the British public has accepted that Jeremy Bamber murdered his entire family so that he alone would inherit the family wealth. The prosecution’s argument, never challenged, isn’t as straightforward and convincing as they made it seem. The order of deaths would have had a significant impact on who was in line to benefit, and how much each party was entitled to receive. For instance, if either of the twins died last, their father, Colin Caffell, may have had rights to some of the estate; if June died last, her sister Pamela and family would have stood to benefit; if Nevill had died last of all, Nevill’s nephew and niece (the Pargeters) would have stood to inherit a sizeable portion; if Sheila had died last, her natural parents might have stood to inherit some of the estate. Whoever had died last determined who may have been in the frame to inherit. Jeremy Bamber was not the sole benefactor of his parents’ wealth. Without any evidence to establish who had died in which order left Jeremy’s ‘established motive’ very much in the air. Jeremy knew better than anyone that his greedy and unfriendly relatives would exploit the situation for all it was worth. If Jeremy had not been arrested and convicted, there would have been bitter battles over the money; in the end, there was anyhow. As no one could state who was the final person to die, no one could establish whose last will and testament should be implemented to determine the distribution of wealth and property. A decade after the murders, family in-fighting and legal wrangling was still the order of the day. Threats of civil action between the Pargeters, Boutflours and Eatons got nasty as separate arms of the clan fought over their claims to the Bamber estate."
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" if Sheila had died last, her natural parents might have stood to inherit some of the estate. Whoever had died last determined who may have been in the frame to inherit. Jeremy Bamber was not the sole benefactor of his parents’ wealth."
So by asking that question he wasn't assuming the whole estate would come to him.
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HAPPY FAMILIES
Apart from Stan Jones, much of the initial suspicion against Jeremy came from the surviving relatives, and this is significant. The relatives gave the police the primary background information about the Bambers and did their best to stoke the flames of prejudice against the twenty-four year old heir. Serious money was on the table if Jeremy was sent down, so this must be kept in mind when evaluating everything the Boutflours, Eatons and Pargeters said and did. The jury also entertained such ignoble thoughts, at one point asking the trial judge to clarify exactly where the prime leader of the family assault against Jeremy, Robert Boutflour, stood in terms of the inheritance if Jeremy was found guilty. As with most things, the jury was given a misleading answer. They were told Robert would have no claims on the re-distributed money if Jeremy was found guilty. While this is technically true in a direct sense, the jury wasn’t told that Robert’s very own family, his wife and children, were the ones who would get the dosh instead. The prosecution also failed to disclose that Robert Boutflour was aware that if Jeremy received his rightful inheritance, he intended to sell significant portions of land, thereby disposing of what had been a part of Pamela Boutflour’s family’s estate for generations.
Jeremy’s 1986 conviction meant that he forfeited his rightful claim to the Bamber inheritance. The family members therefore inherited an estate which, on conservative 1985 estimates, included £436,000 pounds in cash, several hundred acres of prime land, and assets that produced significant funds per annum. Ann and Peter Eaton were given the tenancy of White House Farm. Years later, from prison, Jeremy lost a High court action to recover £1.27 million he claimed he should have received from his grandmother’s will. He also lost another High Court case to recover £326,000 from his loss of earnings as a shareholder of the family-owned Osea Road caravan site.
There’s no disguising that Jeremy and the extended family actively disliked one another. Perhaps the family genuinely did believe Jeremy pulled the trigger. But it’s not fair to discard the fact that the police claimed Jeremy committed the murders for the Bamber fortune, yet forget the fact that his main accusers were the ones who prospered most from his subsequent conviction. Nevill and June viewed their large acreage as a responsibility, rather than a gift, and to the extended family, the farm represented their birthright, their expectations, their future and their children's future. Jeremy remained an interloper in their eyes and didn’t have a place in their chosen scenario. Feudal relations and bad blood was nothing new to the folks of Tolleshunt D’Arcy.*
By their own admissions, the family had come to the conclusion that Jeremy was the killer within twenty-four hours of the investigation. Their first attack on the Essex police came at 8 a.m. the very morning after the murders took place. DCI Jones was approached and told that Sheila’s inability to use guns was suspicious. The Boutflour-Eaton clan had several willing scribes; David Boutflour, Ann Eaton, Robert Boutflour, and even friends of the family all took to writing their suspicions down."
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-5.html