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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 09:23:44 PM
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Has this anything to do with Kate McCann being on her mobile that night so much more than other nights? In fact she never used her phone on any other night before 4th May past 7 or 8
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapKate1mei.jpg
Kates phone pings 1st May
compare to all the rest
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_PING.htm
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Can someone clarify what that document is showing ?
Is it saying that Kate was using her phone during the period Mrs Fenn said she could hear a child crying in the McCann apartment ?
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Can someone clarify what that document is showing ?
Is it saying that Kate was using her phone during the period Mrs Fenn said she could hear a child crying in the McCann apartment ?
Pings as far as I can work out. What's suspicious?
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Pings as far as I can work out. What's suspicious?
I don't understand the document and wanted to clarify ... how many times was Kate on the phone during the hour and a quarter period Mrs Fenn heard a chid crying in the McCann apartment ?
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I don't understand the document and wanted to clarify ... how many times was Kate on the phone during the hour and a quarter period Mrs Fenn heard a chid crying in the McCann apartment ?
What makes you think that she was on the phone?
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What makes you think that she was on the phone?
That's why I am asking questions Carana ... I don't understand what this document means
Perhaps someone can explain it to me
Do the 'pings' signify that Kate was using her phone ? ... and how many times did that happen during the period Mrs Fenn heard the child crying in the apartment ?
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I can't help, Icabodcrane, I'm very allergic to cell phones. But I have an idea, likely stupid, that when a cellphone receives or sends a sms, some kind of signal is registered in the operator post. No need to actually talk.
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That's why I am asking questions Carana ... I don't understand what this document means
Perhaps someone can explain it to me
Do the 'pings' signify that Kate was using her phone ? ... and how many times did that happen during the period Mrs Fenn heard the child crying in the apartment ?
If this is correct.
Pinging a cell phone means locating the tower origin of the last signal the phone received
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If this is correct.
Pinging a cell phone means locating the tower origin of the last signal the phone received
So the 'pings' show when a mobile has been used ?
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So the 'pings' show when a mobile has been used ?
As far as I know, a ping is a signal received on a signal-receiving mast. It does not necessarily correspond to any active use of a phone.
I'd be happy to be corrected on that, but I got transferred to a different operator (extra charge) just the other day, when I hadn't even touched my phone, let alone used it.
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Why is there a new thread on this subject?
Never been a thread before carana, just wondering if there is a connection with kates phone pings on that night and mrs fenns testimony, her phone had nothing on it for every single previous night
icab, the time of the pings is just before Mrs Fenn said she heard a child cry from the flat below, child heard crying from 10 30, pings for about a quarter of an hourbefore it started
Ps a ping is a record of a recieved call AFAIAW
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Never been a thread before carana, just wondering if there is a connection with kates phone pings on that night and mrs fenns testimony, her phone had nothing on it for every single previous night
icab, the time of the pings is just before Mrs Fenn said she heard a child cry from the flat below, child heard crying from 10 30, pings for about a quarter of an hourbefore it started
Ps a ping is a record of a recieved call AFAIAW
I recall that the night in question was also the night of the quiz at the Tapas bar. The aerobics instructor, who gave the quiz, was invited to the table by Gerry McCann and remained with them for about half an hour
I can't remember the details of her witness statement, but I believe she said she did not remember Kate being there
Could it be possible that Kate was in the apartment when those calls were made ? ( it seems unlikely that she would be on the phone so much at the dinner table )
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she mayhavebeen asking friends for theanswers LOL, oops, no the quiz ended way before, dunno Icab, whatis clear and fact is that her phone and no one elses was pinged several times that night
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The luscious Mrs Chekaya doesn't remember seeing Mrs McCann at the table where she spent 20 minutes, invited for a drink by Mr McCann (female competition ?), but she curiously noted that a chair remained empty all time... She isn't not sure to remember Mr Payne was there.
Besides she remembers meeting Madeleine once or twice... Where ? How would she identify her ?
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The luscious Mrs Chekaya doesn't remember seeing Mrs McCann at the table where she spent 20 minutes, invited for a drink by Mr McCann (female competition ?), but she curiously noted that a chair remained empty all time... She isn't not sure to remember Mr Payne was there.
Besides she remembers meeting Madeleine once or twice... Where ? How would she identify her ?
Unless you have been there I dont think you could realise just how compact and quite small the garden / tapas area is. It looks much bigger on Google Earth.
The designer (George Crossland?) has fitted tennis courts, swimming pool, tapas restaurant and bar, Kiddies club, pool and the little playground into a remarkably small space. It feels compact and quite cosy, yet not cramped. Very pleasant.
it is the sort of size that everyone would see everyone else - maybe not to speak, but to recognise
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I was there.
Remember : "all pink, blond and pretty" (BoD)
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Sorry, I dont understand you
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So the 'pings' show when a mobile has been used ?
When a signal has been picked up by a mast. Not necessarily the same thing as a phone being used as far as I know.
A few days ago, I suddently got switched to a different operator as my normal one was down for some reason. Very kind, but I hadn't even touched it, let alone used it.
ETA:
In just the past few years, cellphone companies have honed their geographic technology, which has become almost pinpoint. The surveillance and privacy implications are quite simple. If someone knows exactly where you are, they probably know what you are doing. Cellular systems constantly check and record the location of all phones on their networks — and this data is particularly treasured by police departments and online advertisers. Cell companies typically retain your geographic information for a year or longer, according to data gathered by the Justice Department.
http://www.propublica.org/article/thats-no-phone.-thats-my-tracker
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When a signal has been picked up by a mast. Not necessarily the same thing as a phone being used as far as I know.
A few days ago, I suddently got switched to a different operator as my normal one was down for some reason. Very kind, but I hadn't even touched it, let alone used it.
ETA:
In just the past few years, cellphone companies have honed their geographic technology, which has become almost pinpoint. The surveillance and privacy implications are quite simple. If someone knows exactly where you are, they probably know what you are doing. Cellular systems constantly check and record the location of all phones on their networks — and this data is particularly treasured by police departments and online advertisers. Cell companies typically retain your geographic information for a year or longer, according to data gathered by the Justice Department.
http://www.propublica.org/article/thats-no-phone.-thats-my-tracker
Triangulation, but was that really in use in 2007?
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Triangulation, but was that really in use in 2007?
I think so, and before.
I seem to recall from the Peter Voisey case that a (weak) part of the evidence against him was that triangulation of his phone placed him in the 'right' area at the right time to have been a candidate as culprit for the abduction of the little girl ...
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So is the consensus that the phone records must be 'a mistake' ? ... and that Kate did not use her phone the night Mrs Fenn heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
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So is the consensus that the phone records must be 'a mistake' ? ... and that Kate did not use her phone the night Mrs Fenn heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
phone pings dont happen for nothing, someone was making a call or text to her or the other way around, if masts pick up a signal from a phone just because it is,eg in the vicinity,but not active, all the others phones would have been as well,and they werent, that is how I understand it anyway
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I think so, and before.
I seem to recall from the Peter Voisey case that a (weak) part of the evidence against him was that triangulation of his phone placed him in the 'right' area at the right time to have been a candidate as culprit for the abduction of the little girl ...
The only reference to phone records I can find in the files are type "pings" i.e. mast x was activated by phone y at a specific time. That's not triangulation as far as I understand it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
ETA Link as above - The records the PJ received from the service providers were when the phones had been activated i.e. "SMS-in"; "SMS_out"; "voz_in" and "voz_out".". I.e. only SMS and phone calls made or received (& I supposed, missed, as those activates your answering service)
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The luscious Mrs Chekaya doesn't remember seeing Mrs McCann at the table where she spent 20 minutes, invited for a drink by Mr McCann (female competition ?), but she curiously noted that a chair remained empty all time... She isn't not sure to remember Mr Payne was there.
Besides she remembers meeting Madeleine once or twice... Where ? How would she identify her ?
This person could have remembered meeting Madeleine once or twice, after seeing her photo after she went missing?
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Mrs McCann might have gone to the flat to check on her children and make a call. Then she went back to the table without noting that Madeleine had woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice.
According to Mrs Fenn the child started to cry at around 22h30, shortly after the cell phone's activity finished.
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Mrs McCann might have gone to the flat to check on her children and make a call. Then she went back to the table without noting that Madeleine had woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice.
According to Mrs Fenn the child started to cry at around 22h30, shortly after the cell phone's activity finished.
How would Madeleine, have woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice?
Surely if Kate thought the children were asleep, she wouldn't be talking to anyone @)(++(*
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How would Madeleine, have woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice?
Surely if Kate thought the children were asleep, she wouldn't be talking to anyone @)(++(*
What was the activity? Voz in/out or sms in/out? Do you know?
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There were various short period signals, sms seem unlikely (unless the same sms was sent to different persons ?).
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Kate McCann - mobile phone activity April -MAY 2007
APRIL 2007
On 28th the mobile phone that is owned by Kate Healy makes its first record in Portugal, as already said, on the antenna "Luz Centro 1" and from that date until the disappearance of her daughter it never leaves the coverage area of the antennae of the national operator TMN that serve village where she came to spend a week on holiday.
MAY 2007
Admitting [acknowledging] that Madeleine had disappeared between 21:00 and 22:00 [4] on 3rd, it is observed that the last record of the mobile phone of Kate prior to the occurrence [event] occurs at 13:34:53 and the first after the tragic happening was at 23:14:51.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
Is there a link to phone listings, as they don't seem to appear in the above pages? Under "Methodology" in the link above, PJ were able to separate between voz in/out & sms in/out. So it should be fairly clear what type of signal it was, if there are indeed original records from the service providers somewhere in the files.
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The luscious Mrs Chekaya doesn't remember seeing Mrs McCann at the table where she spent 20 minutes, invited for a drink by Mr McCann (female competition ?), but she curiously noted that a chair remained empty all time... She isn't not sure to remember Mr Payne was there.
Besides she remembers meeting Madeleine once or twice... Where ? How would she identify her ?
This person could have remembered meeting Madeleine once or twice, after seeing her photo after she went missing?
Isn't it amazing, how altering a few little words can suit an agenda?
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.
She had only just met them, so how would she know who Kate was?
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleines father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left
When questioned, she said that she had only seen Madeleine once or twice and had merely said hello to her, no more than that.
The photographs of the group of the McCann's friends having been shown to her, the deponent
declares that from those photos seen she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while
she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm#p7p1841-1842
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the empty chair was obviously russell obriens who was sick on the tuesday/quiz night
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Kate McCann - mobile phone activity April -MAY 2007
APRIL 2007
On 28th the mobile phone that is owned by Kate Healy makes its first record in Portugal, as already said, on the antenna "Luz Centro 1" and from that date until the disappearance of her daughter it never leaves the coverage area of the antennae of the national operator TMN that serve village where she came to spend a week on holiday.
MAY 2007
Admitting [acknowledging] that Madeleine had disappeared between 21:00 and 22:00 [4] on 3rd, it is observed that the last record of the mobile phone of Kate prior to the occurrence [event] occurs at 13:34:53 and the first after the tragic happening was at 23:14:51.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
Is there a link to phone listings, as they don't seem to appear in the above pages? Under "Methodology" in the link above, PJ were able to separate between voz in/out & sms in/out. So it should be fairly clear what type of signal it was, if there are indeed original records from the service providers somewhere in the files.
If you do a search on *tmn*and then *optimus* on mccannpjfiles you will find several logs, however, I havent been able to find KMs differnetiation log vis a vis phone call/sms/voc for the 1st. I believe this info was only supplied for may 2-4
the phone records are spread over at least 3 volumes
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Mrs McCann might have gone to the flat to check on her children and make a call. Then she went back to the table without noting that Madeleine had woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice.
According to Mrs Fenn the child started to cry at around 22h30, shortly after the cell phone's activity finished.
Thats a good point, never thought of that
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How would Madeleine, have woken up, possibly hearing her Mum's voice?
Surely if Kate thought the children were asleep, she wouldn't be talking to anyone @)(++(*
even if she wasnt on a call,her phone may have sounded, some ringtones for calls/texts can be loud!
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the empty chair was obviously russell obriens who was sick on the tuesday/quiz night
The aerobics instructor was shown photos of the tapas nine and the only ones she was not sure were there that night were Kate McCann and David Payne ... presumably, when shown a photo of Russell O Brien she confirmed that he was there
Take a look at the Tapas groups rogatory interviews regarding the Tuesday night in question ( quiz night ) ... not one of them recalls that night with any clarity. Not one of them even remembers what night the quiz was on ... or who was there and who wasn't
I think there is a possibility that it was Kate who was missing from the table, and that she was in the apartment using her phone when the pings occured
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The aerobics instructor was shown photos of the tapas nine and the only ones she was not sure were there that night were Kate McCann and David Payne ... presumably, when shown a photo of Russell O Brien she confirmed that he was there
Take a look at the Tapas groups rogatory interviews regarding the Tuesday night in question ( quiz night ) ... not one of them recalls that night with any clarity. Not one of them even remembers what night the quiz was on ... or who was there and who wasn't
I think there is a possibility that it was Kate who was missing from the table, and that she was in the apartment using her phone when the pings occured
Although the rogatories were vague about this and other things I thought overall the consensus was that ROB was missing on the quiz night, I dont have my pack of hedex handy at the moment to go check
8)--))
As for the quiz mistress, she only saw them the once at the quiz in the bar, there was alot of them, and she may not have remembered everything 100%, then again, she did sit with them at the table for a short while, maybe not long enough to actually take in everyone properly?
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She said she was at the table for half an hour and has no doubt concerning Mr McCann. I'm not surprised she wasn't sure whether DP was there, but I'm surprised she didn't remember Mrs McCann.
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She said she was at the table for half an hour and has no doubt concerning Mr McCann. I'm not surprised she wasn't sure whether DP was there, but I'm surprised she didn't remember Mrs McCann.
When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50. = 20 minutes at most!
How would she know who, Kate was or remember Kate, when they had only just met?
She also said they were a group of 9.
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.
So how was anyone away from the table?
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To get back on topic, why was KMs phone pinged that night? THE night Mts Fenn heard a child crying from the flat below, and no other night, pingwise, not Mrs Fenn wise, that was the ONLY night her phone pinged from the start of the hols to the night Madeleine went missing
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The quizz lady remembered two things : Mr McCann and an empty chair.
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When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50. = 20 minutes at most!
How would she know who, Kate was or remember Kate, when they had only just met?
She also said they were a group of 9.
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.
So how was anyone away from the table?
Pity the lady didn't have the razor sharp recall of Tanner eh, who even remembered the style of the alleged abductors shoes after a fleeting glance.
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Where is the document showing that Kate McCann's phone was pinged the evening of the 1st May?
In the PJ files, as stated above, the only records in the files that are available start on the 2nd May so on what information is the ping on the 1st May based?
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Where is the document showing that Kate McCann's phone was pinged the evening of the 1st May?
In the PJ files, as stated above, the only records in the files that are available start on the 2nd May so on what information is the ping on the 1st May based?
The link given in the op takes us to the police files, which show phone details for the Ist of May
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That's a map - those pings can be anything, sms from service provider, PR messages, missed phone calls etc. According to the PJ report none was made on 1st May, so where it the document that shows that outgoing phone call was made from Kate McCann's phone in the evening of the 1st? Did the PJ miss it?
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That's a map - those pings can be anything, sms from service provider, PR messages, missed phone calls etc. According to the PJ report none was made on 1st May, so where it the document that shows that outgoing phone call was made from Kate McCann's phone in the evening of the 1st? Did the PJ miss it?
I don't know Mrs B
All I know is that Kate McCanns phone 'pinged' on the night Mrs Fenn heard a child crying in the apartment for an hour and a quarter ... and that level of activity ( whatever it was ) was not repeated on any other night
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OK, so nobody has a list of actual phone calls made on 1st of May from Kate McCanns' mobile phone?
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OK, so nobody has a list of actual phone calls made on 1st of May from Kate McCanns' mobile phone?
Do you believe that Kate didn't use her phone that night then ? ... based on what ? ( why would you assume that the 'pings' were something 'other' than Kate using her phone ? )
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Do you believe that Kate didn't use her phone that night then ? ... based on what ? ( why would you assume that the 'pings' were something 'other' than Kate using her phone ? )
Do you believe that Kate did use her phone that night then? based on what? Why would you assume the 'pings' were Kate using her phone ?
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Do you believe that Kate did use her phone that night then? based on what? Why would you assume the 'pings' were Kate using her phone ?
For no reason, is my guess. When I go for dinner, I leave my mobile phone either at home, or make sure to have it turned off. When I get home I very often have missed calls, SMS in by inbox etc. That doesn't mean that I was home, mobile phones aren't surgically attached to people. And does nobody wonder how the PJ officers investigating the phone records managed to totally miss Kate McCann making outgoing phone calls on the 1st May?
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For no reason, is my guess. When I go for dinner, I leave my mobile phone either at home, or make sure to have it turned off. When I get home I very often have missed calls, SMS in by inbox etc. That doesn't mean that I was home, mobile phones aren't surgically attached to people. And does nobody wonder how the PJ officers investigating the phone records managed to totally miss Kate McCann making outgoing phone calls on the 1st May?
So do I Mrs B. I usually have text messages to say, I've missed a call, or my provider sends 3 texts, each time I top up. Plus the usual annoying rubbish from ads!
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Where is the document showing that Kate McCann's phone was pinged the evening of the 1st May?
In the PJ files, as stated above, the only records in the files that are available start on the 2nd May so on what information is the ping on the 1st May based?
The document the ping map is based on is here
Outro aspensos telephone file 13 page 169 under the tab, original dvd images
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/
It clearly shows the phone was activated on Tuesday night.
And no, the phone ping records start from 28th April right through to September. What isnt available is the *detailed* phone records for the 1st May, as they are from 2-4 May, showing whether each ping was an oncoming or outgoing call or SMS and showing telephone numbers as well. This is because initially that is all that was asked for (those three dates). So basically there is no way of knowing in what way the phone was activated and who by. ETA Unless the info is hiding somewhere in the files, as we seem to have Gerry Mccanns and two others' detailed records from Vodaphone from 28/4 to early September but not all of the groups
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So do I Mrs B. I usually have text messages to say, I've missed a call, or my provider sends 3 texts, each time I top up. Plus the usual annoying rubbish from ads!
Yes, & each of those would represent a ping - however, if you make a phone call, your service provider will be able to provide exact details of duration of the call, exact time when call was made & recipient number of that call. That would specifically refer to OUTGOING calls, as we PAY for them. All detailed on our bills. However, some apparently would like to think Kate McCann wasn't charged for using her mobile phone. Perhaps Vodafone was "in on it" too?
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On roaming, I also get charged for incoming calls, text messages, missed calls, reminders to consult my voicemail, reminders about roaming charges...
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Yes, & each of those would represent a ping - however, if you make a phone call, your service provider will be able to provide exact details of duration of the call, exact time when call was made & recipient number of that call. That would specifically refer to OUTGOING calls, as we PAY for them. All detailed on our bills. However, some apparently would like to think Kate McCann wasn't charged for using her mobile phone. Perhaps Vodafone was "in on it" too?
Did you ignore my post which gave you the info you were asking for for a specific reason? We dont HAVE Kates detailed phone records, thats it, end of. her being charged or not for using the phone and the rest of your biased imaginary machinations has absolutely nothing to do with anything here except to derail and confuse.
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On roaming, I also get charged for incoming calls, text messages, missed calls, reminders to consult my voicemail, reminders about roaming charges...
Yes and all those would come up as a ping on your phone, though you may not be charged for that, but you will be charged for outgoing calls, they will be detailed on your phone records with the service provider, details of which the PJ clearly had as they stated Kate McCann had NOT made any phone calls on the 1st May. A ping map is not proof of outgoing phone calls, it's as simple as that.
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Yes and all those would come up as a ping on your phone, though you may not be charged for that, but you will be charged for outgoing calls, they will be detailed on your phone records with the service provider, details of which the PJ clearly had as they stated Kate McCann had NOT made any phone calls on the 1st May. A ping map is not proof of outgoing phone calls, it's as simple as that.
Can you provide a cite where the Pj said she never made any calls on 1st May, and if so, why didnt you provide it pages back???? A link to Kate Mccans phone records from the files that show this would also be handy to prove this, tia
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Kate McCann - mobile phone activity April -MAY 2007
APRIL 2007
On 28th the mobile phone that is owned by Kate Healy makes its first record in Portugal, as already said, on the antenna "Luz Centro 1" and from that date until the disappearance of her daughter it never leaves the coverage area of the antennae of the national operator TMN that serve village where she came to spend a week on holiday.
MAY 2007
Admitting [acknowledging] that Madeleine had disappeared between 21:00 and 22:00 [4] on 3rd, it is observed that the last record of the mobile phone of Kate prior to the occurrence [event] occurs at 13:34:53 and the first after the tragic happening was at 23:14:51.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
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Kate McCann - mobile phone activity April -MAY 2007
APRIL 2007
On 28th the mobile phone that is owned by Kate Healy makes its first record in Portugal, as already said, on the antenna "Luz Centro 1" and from that date until the disappearance of her daughter it never leaves the coverage area of the antennae of the national operator TMN that serve village where she came to spend a week on holiday.
MAY 2007
Admitting [acknowledging] that Madeleine had disappeared between 21:00 and 22:00 [4] on 3rd, it is observed that the last record of the mobile phone of Kate prior to the occurrence [event] occurs at 13:34:53 and the first after the tragic happening was at 23:14:51.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
oh dear, Mrs B, that only details the last use of the phone directly before and after the disappearance On the THIRD of MAY
8-)(--)
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Yes, the PJ report details PHONE CALLS made, not pings. From April onwards, so they obviously must have had the service provider lists even if the underlying file doesn't appear in the published material.
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Yes, the PJ report details PHONE CALLS made, not pings. From April onwards, so they obviously must have had the service provider lists even if the underlying file doesn't appear in the published material.
You still havent provided the link to where they say she made no calls on1st May, whats that sayng? When in a hole stop digging
8((()*/
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LOL So the PJ produce a report detailing phone calls made to & from Kate McCann's phone from end of April but they conveniently "forget" to include a whole bunch of phone calls on the 1st of May?
Yes, that'd make a lot of sense.
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LOL So the PJ produce a report detailing phone calls made to & from Kate McCann's phone from end of April but they conveniently "forget" to include a whole bunch of phone calls on the 1st of May?
Yes, that'd make a lot of sense.
Where is this report then? As I said, stop digging, its getting embarrassing for you
have fun trawling through the volumes LOL catch you later
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PJ report on telephone activity http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
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PJ report on telephone activity http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
Pls quote the part that says Km made no calls on the 1st May
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In the detailed report on mobile phone calls by the PJ, does it mention ANY phone call made on Kate McCann's phone on the 1st of May?
If so, please point to where it says there was, as I can't seem to find it. A ping does not mean a phone CALL so unless there is a file detailing that a voz OUT record somewhere on the service provider list on 1st of May, there is no foundation for anyone making a phone call on the 1st of May from that phone.
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In the detailed report on mobile phone calls by the PJ, does it mention ANY phone call made on Kate McCann's phone on the 1st of May?
If so, please point to where it says there was, as I can't seem to find it. A ping does not mean a phone CALL so unless there is a file detailing that a voz OUT record somewhere on the service provider list on 1st of May, there is no foundation for anyone making a phone call on the 1st of May from that phone.
You cant ask further questions until you have answered ones put to you and whichyou continually avoid by posting irrelevant links which do not back up what you are saying LOL
so where is this detailed PJ report showing details of calls made to and from KMs phone from the 28/4 as you assert,it does not exist, therefore you are making it up as you go along because you dont know what you are talking about basically but just want the last word anyway,whether you are right or wrong, poor, very poor,, see ya later, floors all yours for unsubstaniated piffle, squirming is veryunattractive and disingenuous
8((()*/
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In the detailed report on mobile phone calls by the PJ, does it mention ANY phone call made on Kate McCann's phone on the 1st of May?
If so, please point to where it says there was, as I can't seem to find it. A ping does not mean a phone CALL so unless there is a file detailing that a voz OUT record somewhere on the service provider list on 1st of May, there is no foundation for anyone making a phone call on the 1st of May from that phone.
I don't understand why you are so determined to believe Kate did not use her phone that night Mrs B
Why is that important to you ? ... so what if Kate used her phone a few times that night ? ... she could have done so for the most innocent of reasons, afterall
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Well, seeing as I know that a ping doesn't signify an outgoing phone call & I'm satisfied with the PJ's detailed report on the mobile phone activity relating to the whole group which shows that there is no record of any outgoing phone call on Kate McCann's phone on the 1st of May. That's really all the information I need.
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I don't understand why you are so determined to believe Kate did not use her phone that night Mrs B
Why is that important to you ? ... so what if Kate used her phone a few times that night ? ... she could have done so for the most innocent of reasons, afterall
I don't understand either. As we fortunately ignore who was called or called and what for, what's the point ?
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Well, seeing as I know that a ping doesn't signify an outgoing phone call & I'm satisfied with the PJ's detailed report on the mobile phone activity relating to the whole group which shows that there is no record of any outgoing phone call on Kate McCann's phone on the 1st of May. That's really all the information I need.
Mrs B You said there was a report with details of every ping and that the pj said she never made any calls on May 1st, you have failed to back either of these claims up, ergo,.......its nothing to do with YOU being satisfied but all to do with continual unsubstantiated claims of things that just do not exist, if they did you would have backed up bit youfailed miserably, ergo, your argument is null and void, whatever it was, inthe first place
8-)(--)
Byeee
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LOL There's nothing to understand, if it amuses you to pretend that a ping equals an outgoing phone call for which there are no records, please feel free to go ahead. I already have the information I need.
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When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50. = 20 minutes at most!
How would she know who, Kate was or remember Kate, when they had only just met?
She also said they were a group of 9.
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.
So how was anyone away from the table?
She would remember the best looking blokes ot the ones who fussed around her !
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LOL There's nothing to understand, if it amuses you to pretend that a ping equals an outgoing phone call for which there are no records, please feel free to go ahead. I already have the information I need.
But you claimed a few posts back there WAS a detailed record for all the pings but you couldnt back it up
Couldnt make it up really
@)(++(*
@)(++(*
Enough lies from you for one day, sleep tite
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Can you provide a cite where the Pj said she never made any calls on 1st May, and if so, why didnt you provide it pages back???? A link to Kate Mccans phone records from the files that show this would also be handy to prove this, tia
All this amazing sleuthing you are doing,. Red; I am sure SY will have noticed it 8@??)(
Why didn't the PJ use this amazing stuff if there was anything in it? 8(0(*
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Once again, a MAP detailing pings on a mobile phone does not equal phone calls made or received. It really isn't that hard to understand.
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What does that ping map actually signify?
Isn't it simply a record of the periodic signal exchange between a cell tower and phones (that are turned on) within its range?
It doesn't seem to necessarily imply that calls/texts were being sent/received.
http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/cellping.asp
http://searchengineland.com/cell-phone-triangulation-accuracy-is-all-over-the-map-14790
http://pursuitmag.com/locating-mobile-phones-through-pinging-and-triangulation/
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I'm still interested in the perceived connection between cell tower ping results and Mrs Fenn's statement.
- Mrs Fenn reported hearing a child crying, who she thought was not a 2-year-old or younger. It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
- The cell tower records from that evening show that Kate's cell phone was not shut down (turned off) during dinner that evening. The last ping was at 22:27:50.
- Did the PJ analysis show that she'd made/received calls/messages/missed calls that evening? If so, where is the PJ record?
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In the Vodafone lists (about 50 pages, tiny text), detailing 1st Outgoing calls, then 2nd. incoming calls 3rd outgoing sms & 4th. incoming SMS. There's NO record of any outgoing calls or sms on Kate's phone on the 1st. I looked through the lists yesterday (thought I was going to go blind, honestly). Plenty on Gerry's though, but nothing on Kate's for the 1st - or at least I cannot find it.
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- Mrs Fenn reported hearing a child crying, who she thought was not a 2-year-old or younger. It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
Where have you seen that Mrs Fenn doubted from where came the cries and whether it was the same child all the time ?
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e also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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Where have you seen that Mrs Fenn doubted from where came the cries and whether it was the same child all the time ?
That is not what I said.
This elderly neighbour wasn't interviewed until several months later.
I haven't seen any clarification about these issues.
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this is what you said
Mrs Fenn reported hearing a child crying, who she thought was not a 2-year-old or younger. It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
so where have you got ........It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
when it clearly says fgs
Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
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That is not what I said.
This elderly neighbour wasn't interviewed until several months later.
I haven't seen any clarification about these issues.
Should the PJ have required from Mrs Fenn to pass an audition test since she said a thing and Mrs McCann, though she was out, another one ? You have to admit a test would have been humiliating. Much easier was to reconstruct ! And much efficient too !
BTW Mrs Fenn explained why she didn't run to the police station to reveal a crying episode that impressed her enough to call a friend on the phone... Ah, but this friend has never been checked, isn't it ?
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Should the PJ have required from Mrs Fenn to pass an audition test since she said a thing and Mrs McCann, though she was out, another one ? You have to admit a test would have been humiliating. Much easier was to reconstruct ! And much efficient too !
BTW Mrs Fenn explained why she didn't run to the police station to reveal a crying episode that impressed her enough to call a friend on the phone... Ah, but this friend has never been checked, isn't it ?
So why did Murat tell a GNR officer, that Mrs Fenn rang him and she had been interviewed, soon after Madeleine's abduction?
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In the Vodafone lists (about 50 pages, tiny text), detailing 1st Outgoing calls, then 2nd. incoming calls 3rd outgoing sms & 4th. incoming SMS. There's NO record of any outgoing calls or sms on Kate's phone on the 1st. I looked through the lists yesterday (thought I was going to go blind, honestly). Plenty on Gerry's though, but nothing on Kate's for the 1st - or at least I cannot find it.
is this the document? This is the one that is near fifty pages and as said before, it does NOT show any data either side of 2-3-4 May
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_10_COM.htm
if not, which one was it? that you trawled through? That showed plenty of calls off Gerrry's phone but nothing off Kate's
And btw Kates mobile wasnt on vodaphone so not sure why her calls would be on any vodaphone document, which as btw nearly 200 pages long
To recap, not all pings mean a physical call was made or recieved, they also include text messages and network alerts, but there doesnt seem to be ANY detailed records in the files for Kate Mccanns calls and SMS APART from 2-3-4 May
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this is what you said
Mrs Fenn reported hearing a child crying, who she thought was not a 2-year-old or younger. It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
so where have you got ........It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
when it clearly says fgs
Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
Mrs Fenns apartment is G on this image. Seems that she is atop of two apartments, A and B. Apartment B is occupied by The Oldfields. Now remind me, did they have one child or two? Adjoining Mrs Fenns apartment is 5H. Apartment H is the Paynes.
So who was crying exactly? A Mccann child, an Oldfield child or even a Payne child?
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
Very easy to make accusations and implications, but you need facts and there are none. Nothing that would pass muster in a Court ... not a UK one anyhow.
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this is what you said
Mrs Fenn reported hearing a child crying, who she thought was not a 2-year-old or younger. It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
so where have you got ........It's unclear where, exactly, this sound came from, nor whether it was the same child during this entire time.
when it clearly says fgs
Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
Don't you think her (tardy) statement would have been worth further clarification?
There is another thread on this...
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So why did Murat tell a GNR officer, that Mrs Fenn rang him and she had been interviewed, soon after Madeleine's abduction?
When was this? Link?
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When was this? Link?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
Deleted, read it wrong but suggests informal chats happened with Mrs Fenn and the police in the first few days judgingbythe date of that officers statement
Doesnt deminish mrs fenns statement though does it
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That doesnt say that Mrs Fenn rang Mr Murat, it says Mr Murat rang the police saying Mrs Fenn had rung him!
It suggests there was an informal chat early on with Mrs Fenn and the GNR or PJ
come on Red.
You are argueing against yourself in that statement. @)(++(*
Mr murat said that Mrs Fenn had rung him. How does that equate to "That doesn't say Mrs Fenn rang Mr Murat"?
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Deleted, read it wrong but auggests informal chats happened with Mrs Fenn inthe first few days
Why would she ring him again, after the abduction. She had already rung and told him a child was crying.
And she had given been interviewed, so where is that statement?
Witness Statement
Date: 2007/05/16
Paolo Jorge Carvaihosa da Costa
Occupation: GNR Officer
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
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Sadie, i amended my post on rereading, now dont post to me again please, I am not interested in the least by ANY of your posts anymore in any way shape or form, I have promised the mods that I wont respond to you and I have kept my promise to date, until this one, end of, take up your arguments with others, no need to goad or harrass me, youwill get nowhere
8((()*/
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Why would she ring him again, after the abduction. She had already rung and told him a child was crying.
And she had given been interviewed, so where is that statement?
Witness Statement
Date: 2007/05/16
Paolo Jorge Carvaihosa da Costa
Occupation: GNR Officer
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
Sorry where is it that shows she rang murat twice? And also how do you know it was mrs fenn that spoke to him? No names were mentioned, could have been anyone, and what do you mean ring him again after the abduction? Surely all and any calls would have been after it
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This was the OP.
Mrs Fenn heard a child cryng for ages night of May 1st
« on: June 15, 2013, 09:23:44 PM »
Quote
has this anything to do with Kate Mccann being on her mobile that night so much more than other nights? In fact she never used her phone on any other night before 4th May past 7 or 8
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapKate1mei.jpg
Kates phone pings 1st may
compare to all the rest
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_PING.htm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 07:38:00 PM by Redblossom »
Has anything more than signals between cell towers and non-switched-off phones revealed anything significant concerning Kate's phone on that evening?
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This was the OP.
Mrs Fenn heard a child cryng for ages night of May 1st
« on: June 15, 2013, 09:23:44 PM »
Quote
has this anything to do with Kate Mccann being on her mobile that night so much more than other nights? In fact she never used her phone on any other night before 4th May past 7 or 8
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapKate1mei.jpg
Kates phone pings 1st may
compare to all the rest
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_PING.htm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 07:38:00 PM by Redblossom »
Has anything more than signals between cell towers and non-switched-off phones revealed anything significant concerning Kate's phone on that evening?
no thats we are asking if thats ok, there are NO detailed records of kates mobile phone usage, bar 2-3-4 may as opposed to detailed usage of others which stretch from 28 april to early sept
though Mrs B think she found some look forward to the info
@)(++(*
Which doesnot exist
@)(++(*
Laters
8((()*/
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no thats we are asking if thats ok, there are NO detailed records of kates mobile phone usage, bar 2-3-4 may as opposed to detailed usage of others which stretch from 28 april to early sept
Who is we?
If there were any, what did the PJ do with them?
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Can I ask, is there any record of kate's mobile use before this date? Was she often on her mobile?
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Who is we?
If there were any, what did the PJ do with them?
My mistake, cross post. Am I right in understanding then : there is no record of mobile usage habits?
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My mistake, cross post. Am I right in understanding then : there is no record of mobile usage habits?
There is a long report on phone usage.
However, I haven't found anything to link cell tower pings concerning Kate's phone and any communications on the evening of 1 May related to that phone.
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Should the PJ have required from Mrs Fenn to pass an audition test since she said a thing and Mrs McCann, though she was out, another one ? You have to admit a test would have been humiliating. Much easier was to reconstruct ! And much efficient too !
BTW Mrs Fenn explained why she didn't run to the police station to reveal a crying episode that impressed her enough to call a friend on the phone... Ah, but this friend has never been checked, isn't it ?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Have you found a statement from the friend that she called? It might have been useful to double-check the time, date and any other details.
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Sadie, i amended my post on rereading, now dont post to me again please, I am not interested in the least by ANY of your posts anymore in any way shape or form, I have promised the mods that I wont respond to you and I have kept my promise to date, until this one, end of, take up your arguments with others, no need to goad or harrass me, youwill get nowhere
8((()*/
8((()*/ Glad i helped you to spot your mistake, Red, and that you have amended it.
That's Ok if you are not interested in any of my posts anymore. I am glad that you wont respond anymore because I dont take kindly to being repeatedly called some of the names you have repeatedly and abusively called me. I am not a cow and neither am I a liar. Neither have i enjoyed being goaded and harrassed by you.
So lets get on with the discussion, which is what it should be. 8((()*/
If necessary I shall respond to your posts and so long as you are polite, I will be too. I am polite by nature, but I will not tolerate people falsely calling me a liar and such like. OK?
Now lets shake hands and get on with it again.. Shall we?
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You didnt help me in anything at all Sadie, I revised my post without anyones help thanks, and I ask once agan, please refrain from posting to me, I have no wish to converse with the likes of you, thanks in advance otherwise I will report you for continual harrassment, cheers
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Who is we?
If there were any, what did the PJ do with them?
There is no evidence there were any
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My mistake, cross post. Am I right in understanding then : there is no record of mobile usage habits?
There are detailed records over three volumes of the files for mobile phone usage, from April to September, KMs appears nowhere apart from a small section covering 2-3-4 May
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There is no evidence there were any
Does that answer your question in the OP or not?
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Does that answer your question in the OP or not?
Not really, we have come a long way from my OP and learning about pings, seeing as her records are absent from the files we do not know why her phone pinged on tuesday night thats all, could be nothing, might be, evidence is not there
evidence is there for gerry and others but not Kate and lastly, every single ping is backed up by the records we do have of an sms message or call, so, the phone does not ping any tower just by being switched on, there HAS to be some activity relating to it,cheers
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Here's an idea.
Why don't you and others who are offended by
Redblossoms posts just stop replying to him/her?
Thank you neely,good advice, Ive stopped posting to her for ages now as was adviced to me by mods after my last banningbecause of exchanges with her and I kept to my bit of the bargain,and Im trying to get Sadie off my back for days now by not replying to her posts to me but she doesnt stop addressing me even after Ive asked, balls in her court, as I said or it is harrassment and goading, reported already anyway
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Here's an idea.
Why don't you and others who are offended by
Redblossoms posts just stop replying to him/her?
ah neeley
could this be because redblossom....could be on the right track.....[because some take it far too seriously imo]
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After six years of reading "Redblossoms" posts I know exactly where he/she is coming from thank you .
My name is Neeley by the way.
mine is xtina ..please to meet you..
After six years of reading "Redblossoms" posts I know exactly where he/she is coming from thank you .
yes sounds like the same place as me..
don't want to keep going off topic though ...so goodnite neeley
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I'm not sure what you mean.
Have you found a statement from the friend that she called? It might have been useful to double-check the time, date and any other details.
I'm sure what you mean, Carana. You know perfectly well that nobody on this forum knows the answer to your question concerning Mrs Fenn's friend, i.e this question has no pertinence whatsoever. The PJ very likely made sure there was no confusion of date calling Mrs Fenn's friend (easy access to her phone nb).
Yet you recurrently insist on the double-checking of old and unfortunately late Mrs Fenn as if she was affected by some kind of Alzheimer because she heard crying on the 1st of May in the flat downstairs.
Do you suspect an hallucination ? There's no evidence the McCann children never cried, at least when they were left alone.
And about the crying stopping when the patio doors slide, there's no evidence as well that the McCann parents didn't have dinner outside.
On the 2nd, according to an alleged statement of Madeleine McCann, she and a siebling cried. A double checking with Rachael denied it.
No triple checking with Mrs Fenn was possible since she said she wasn't home. Ah but was she really out ? What if she thought she had dinner downtown when she was watching the BBC News and thought she was home when she was on the beach ?
Would you have the courage to double check Mrs McCann's who extraordinarily, in what was likely the most distressful situation she had ever lived, found a way to ridicule Mrs Fenn who kindly showed her concern ?
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There is a long report on phone usage.
However, I haven't found anything to link cell tower pings concerning Kate's phone and any communications on the evening of 1 May related to that phone.
Thanks Carana. I was just wondering if her use of her phone that night was different to any other night. If it was usual usage then it's irrelevant.
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There is a long report on phone usage.
However, I haven't found anything to link cell tower pings concerning Kate's phone and any communications on the evening of 1 May related to that phone.
Because there isn't any - another attempt at making stuff up again.
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Thanks Carana. I was just wondering if her use of her phone that night was different to any other night. If it was usual usage then it's irrelevant.
It was different to every other night up to May 4th, if you read the OP you will have seen
Facts are
1) KMs phone was pinged that night, several times, the only one in the group, hours later than it was normally and never at that sort of time before the 4th
2) This means she was texting or recieved texts or was phoning or was being phoned or that she recieved some sms from a phone provider, but there were alot of pings and I doubt they were to give her the latest weather forecast or horoscope just for that night.....it COULD have been messages about messages received or calls missed,still, why so many just that night?
3) There is no evidence in the file to correlate these partly because detailed records were only asked by the Pj of the phone operators for all the tapas group for the dates of may 2-3-4
4) Kates phone records from her mobile phone provider in detail, from late april to early sept appear no where in the files, but records for other tapas group members do, that is the reason we cannot check what the pings might have been, on the 1st, that is all
it could mean nothing it could mean something
Edited
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I would think that Scotland Yard have examined all phone records thoroughly, as part of their review, including the calls made from Mrs Fenn's phone that night. They will know whether she rang her friend to tell of her concern for the crying child, that could easily be confirmed
Personally, I see no logical reason for doubting the late Mrs Fenn's testimony
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I would think that Scotland Yard have examined all phone records thoroughly, as part of their review, including the calls made from Mrs Fenn's phone that night. They will know whether she rang her friend to tell of her concern for the crying child, that could easily be confirmed
Personally, I see no logical reason for doubting the late Mrs Fenn's testimony
I agree that SY will have investigated a lot, including information that was denied to the PJ at the time either by the PT courts or the British authorities. We shall see maybe. As for Mrs Fenns testimony no reason to doubt it I agree.
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SY might have got from the operator informations on calls or sms that were refused to the Ministério Publico by the Evora Court.
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It was different to every other night up to May 4th, if you read the OP you will have seen
Facts are
1) KMs phone was pinged that night, several times, the only one in the group, hours later than it was normally and never at that sort of time before the 4th
2) This means she was texting or recieved texts or was phoning or was being phoned or that she recieved some sms from a phone provider, but there were alot of pings and I doubt they were to give her the latest weather forecast or horoscope just for that night.....it COULD have been messages about messages received or calls missed,still, why so many just that night?
3) There is no evidence in the file to correlate these partly because detailed records were only asked by the Pj of the phone operators for all the tapas group for the dates of may 2-3-4
4) Kates phone records from her mobile phone provider in detail, from late april to early sept appear no where in the files, but records for other tapas group members do, that is the reason we cannot check what the pings might have been, on the 1st, that is all
it could mean nothing it could mean something
Edited
What's this then?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm#p1p83
Have you excluded the possibility that it was simply on standby (as opposed to being switched off)?
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What's this then?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm#p1p83
Have you excluded the possibility that it was simply on standby (as opposed to being switched off)?
It doesnt matter if it was switched on or off at any time
And that report is an analysis of antenna pings qnd locations off Kms phones for april to sept, there is NO detailed record of her usage in the files APART from May 2-3-4
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I would think that Scotland Yard have examined all phone records thoroughly, as part of their review, including the calls made from Mrs Fenn's phone that night. They will know whether she rang her friend to tell of her concern for the crying child, that could easily be confirmed
Personally, I see no logical reason for doubting the late Mrs Fenn's testimony
I have no doubt that she was an honest witness and quite probably a very kindly lady.
That's not the point, though. The PJ don't seem to have taken any measures to verify whether her recollection of time / date and location of sound were accurate. She wasn't even interviewed until the latter half of August - and then it was a simple witness statement.
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It doesnt matter if it was switched on or off at any time
And that report is an analysis of antenna pings qnd locations off Kms phones for april to sept, there is NO detailed record of her usage in the files APART from May 2-3-4
Why not?
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I have no doubt that she was an honest witness and quite probably a very kindly lady.
That's not the point, though. The PJ don't seem to have taken any measures to verify whether her recollection of time / date and location of sound were accurate. She wasn't even interviewed until the latter half of August - and then it was a simple witness statement.
Mrs Fenn appeared, to me, to be a very articulate and able lady
I have to ask, Carana, what is your rationale for doubting her recollection of time/date/location of sound accuracy ?
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Mrs Fenn appeared, to me, to be a very articulate and able lady
I have to ask, Carana, what is your rationale for doubting her recollection of time/date/location of sound accuracy ?
There was a long thread on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
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Why not?
Ok forget that, what difference would it make to anythng if the phone was switched on/standby as you call it, the pings are dates and times of the phonebeing activated, and for the last time, we do not know why and by who as the files do not tell us for that day in any detail at all, it seems KMs detailed phone records were not requested, or never provided to the PJ, end of, my last post here
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There was a long thread on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
But that thread suggests Mrs Fenn never MADE the statement about a child crying at ALL to the police
( In fact, in essence, the thread you have linked to appears to suggest that Mrs Fenn's police statement was some sort of 'forgery' )
Is that your position Carana ... do you think Mrs Fenn's police statement was forged ? ... or do you have other reasons for doubting her word
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But that thread suggests Mrs Fenn never MADE the statement about a child crying at ALL to the police
( In fact, in essence, the thread you have linked to appears to suggest that Mrs Fenn's police statement was some sort of 'forgery' )
Is that your position Carana ... do you think Mrs Fenn's police statement was forged ? ... or do you have other reasons for doubting her word
@)(++(*
not a ferryman thread perchance LOL
Eta, oops, just clicked, and yes!
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But that thread suggests Mrs Fenn never MADE the statement about a child crying at ALL to the police
( In fact, in essence, the thread you have linked to appears to suggest that Mrs Fenn's police statement was some sort of 'forgery' )
Is that your position Carana ... do you think Mrs Fenn's police statement was forged ? ... or do you have other reasons for doubting her word
No. I have never thought her statement was forged. (There may or may not have been mistakes or misunderstandings in it... and we'll never know about that.)
My point is that the interview could have probed further and been cross-referenced.
- She didn't think that the sound came from a child under two. What was the actual term used? Infant? Or something else?
- What made her notice the time when it started? Did she look at a clock? Was she watching a particular TV programme? Where was she in the apartment? Did she move around her apartment during that time? If so, from where to where?
- Could she have heard various children crying at different times from different locations?
- When did she ring her friend? The PJ didn't double-check when that was (date/time).
- She heard a veranda door sliding which coincided with when the crying stopped. Was there anything that made her sure which veranda door it was?
- Did she hear either of the gates being opened and closed prior to the sound of veranda door?
- Does the veranda door make a different noise if it is being opened as opposed to being shut?
I could go on...
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No. I have never thought her statement was forged. (There may or may not have been mistakes or misunderstandings in it... and we'll never know about that.)
My point is that the interview could have probed further and been cross-referenced.
- She didn't think that the sound came from a child under two. What was the actual term used? Infant? Or something else?
- What made her notice the time when it started? Did she look at a clock? Was she watching a particular TV programme? Where was she in the apartment? Did she move around her apartment during that time? If so, from where to where?
- Could she have heard various children crying at different times from different locations?
- When did she ring her friend? The PJ didn't double-check when that was (date/time).
- She heard a veranda door sliding which coincided with when the crying stopped. Was there anything that made her sure which veranda door it was?
- Did she hear either of the gates being opened and closed prior to the sound of veranda door?
- Does the veranda door make a different noise if it is being opened as opposed to being shut?
I could go on...
You have listed your doubts about Mrs Fenn's statement ... but you have not explained your reasons for doubting her statement in the first place
What is there about Mrs Fenn ( who appeared extremely articule and has been described by her niece as being 'mentally astute' ) that leads to think her statement, as she gave it, should not be accepted as being accurate ?
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You have listed your doubts about Mrs Fenn's statement ... but you have not explained your reasons for doubting her statement in the first place
What is there about Mrs Fenn ( who appeared extremely articule and has been described by her niece as being 'mentally astute' ) that leads to think her statement, as she gave it, should not be accepted as being accurate ?
I'm not sure what you mean.
I have doubts that that (tardy) statement taken by the PJ is as complete as it could have been for the reasons listed above.
I'm not criticising her. Poor lady, trying to remember details 3 and a half months later.
And I think that that is valid whatever the scenario.
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I'm not sure what you mean.
I have doubts that that (tardy) statement taken by the PJ is as complete as it could have been for the reasons listed above.
I'm not criticising her. Poor lady, trying to remember details 3 and a half months later.
And I think that that is valid whatever the scenario.
I'll try to explain what I mean
Mrs Fenn was an articulate lady described as being mentally astute by those who knew her
Her witness statement says that she heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment below her between 10.30pm and 11.45pm, the child becoming increasingly distressed
I see no reason not to accept that statement as being accurate
You, however, appear to doubt it, yet give no explanation for doing so
You seem, for some reason, to expect Mrs Fenn to have 'proven' her witness statement ... why ?
Why do you feel it is necessary for this witness's statement to be 'backed up' before you accept it as truthful ?
Why do you doubt Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness ?
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the same as throwing doubt on anything that *might* put the mccanns in a bad light, that is all, you dont see the same amount of time or energy spent on any of the questionable tapas group statements, or video interviews, they are all apologised for whatever they say, with a variety of excuses, in other words, anythng and everything will have an innocent explanation as mitchell declared to a degree that bypasses credulity times over
But when it comes to awkward statements and events from third parties its always fraud, lying,mistaken, bad translations, nasty people, brown envelopes and any other imagnary evil act etc etc
@)(++(*
Smell the pr and propaganda coffee, any fool can,ps Icab not referrng to you
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But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.
Germany was the first victim of this principle.
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I'll try to explain what I mean
Mrs Fenn was an articulate lady described as being mentally astute by those who knew her
Her witness statement says that she heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment below her between 10.30pm and 11.45pm, the child becoming increasingly distressed
I see no reason not to accept that statement as being accurate
You, however, appear to doubt it, yet give no explanation for doing so
You seem, for some reason, to expect Mrs Fenn to have 'proven' her witness statement ... why ?
Why do you feel it is necessary for this witness's statement to be 'backed up' before you accept it as truthful ?
Why do you doubt Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness ?
My point would be the same if I thought that the parents really had not been to check on their children during all that time or whether an intruder could have been in there.
The first PJ team only took a statement from an elderly lady who happened to be an immediate neighbour... 3 and a half months later?
It's not about doubting her as a witness. Where noise actually comes from in apartment blocks can be deceptive.
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It's not about doubting her as a witness. Where noise actually comes from in apartment blocks can be deceptive.
My own experience of this type of holiday apartment is that after a while you become used to noises and can usually determine where any particular noise is coming from. Noises originating from directly underneath are usually much clearer than noises which originate from more distant apartments. Also, a loud noise from underneath causes a vibration.
Likewise, a resident above an apartment becomes very aware after a while of the opening and closing of sliding patio doors. They can usually tell if the sound has originated from the apartment directly underneath.
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My point would be the same if I thought that the parents really had not been to check on their children during all that time or whether an intruder could have been in there.
The first PJ team only took a statement from an elderly lady who happened to be an immediate neighbour... 3 and a half months later?
It's not about doubting her as a witness. Where noise actually comes from in apartment blocks can be deceptive.
I agree, it's extremely deceptive. Don't know how many times I've complained about noise to the WRONG people in the past.
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I agree, it's extremely deceptive. Don't know how many times I've complained about noise to the WRONG people in the past.
but not in the present ?
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Can you clarify that please, Anne? Not in the present would imply complaining to be a daily thing.
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but not in the present ?
Yes, not much to complain about where noise is concerned where I am now.
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My own experience of this type of holiday apartment is that after a while you become used to noises and can usually determine where any particular noise is coming from. Noises originating from directly underneath are usually much clearer than noises which originate from more distant apartments. Also, a loud noise from underneath causes a vibration.
Likewise, a resident above an apartment becomes very aware after a while of the opening and closing of sliding patio doors. They can usually tell if the sound has originated from the apartment directly underneath.
well did the noise come from apartment A or apartment B ? both below.
Also have you taken account of Mrs Fenns age? At her age she is likely to be deaf in some way. At the moment there are four people in my home of about the same age as Mrs fenn. All are deaf to some degree. I know that at least two of us cannot tell direction of noise.
If I remember, will ask the other two tomorrow.
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Hot deleting tonight!
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I'll try to explain what I mean
Mrs Fenn was an articulate lady described as being mentally astute by those who knew her
Her witness statement says that she heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment below her between 10.30pm and 11.45pm, the child becoming increasingly distressed
I see no reason not to accept that statement as being accurate
You, however, appear to doubt it, yet give no explanation for doing so
You seem, for some reason, to expect Mrs Fenn to have 'proven' her witness statement ... why ?
Why do you feel it is necessary for this witness's statement to be 'backed up' before you accept it as truthful ?
Why do you doubt Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness ?
How about Jane tanners statement re. bundleman
Dont the same conditions as you espouse for Mrs Fenn apply there?
And Kate and Gerry
And all the Tapas
Why a different set of criteria for one person against all the others
Oh, I know. They're all init aint they? .... sadie rolls eyes
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How about Jane tanners statement re. bundleman
Dont the same conditions as you espouse for Mrs Fenn apply there?
And Kate and Gerry
And all the Tapas
Why a different set of criteria for one person against all the others
Oh, I know. They're all init aint they? .... sadie rolls eyes
I think the answer to that is Mrs Fenn is an independent witness with no connection to the McCanns.
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Can you clarify that please, Anne? Not in the present would imply complaining to be a daily thing.
I was just kidding. "I have complained... in the past" is redundant.
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I think the answer to that is Mrs Fenn is an independent witness with no connection to the McCanns.
Well, as it happens, there is a similarity between Mrs Fenn's and Jane Tanner's statement ... both were contradicted by Gerry McCann
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I was just kidding. "I have complained... in the past" is redundant.
>@@(*&)
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My own experience of this type of holiday apartment is that after a while you become used to noises and can usually determine where any particular noise is coming from. Noises originating from directly underneath are usually much clearer than noises which originate from more distant apartments. Also, a loud noise from underneath causes a vibration.
Likewise, a resident above an apartment becomes very aware after a while of the opening and closing of sliding patio doors. They can usually tell if the sound has originated from the apartment directly underneath.
That's not my experience (quite different in some situations).
I find that there just isn't enough information to determine who she heard, nor where it was coming from.
She believed that they had just got back as she heard a door slide and soon after the crying stopped.
But the PJ didn't ask her if she'd heard the gates being opened and shut or people climbing the stairs. Wouldn't such questions have helped to clarify the situation? Or even verifying with her friend?
Whether she did hear Madeleine or a combination of several children doesn't explain why it took so long to interview her, nor why the interview didn't probe further.
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That's not my experience (quite different in some situations).
I find that there just isn't enough information to determine who she heard, nor where it was coming from.
She believed that they had just got back as she heard a door slide and soon after the crying stopped.
But the PJ didn't ask her if she'd heard the gates being opened and shut or people climbing the stairs. Wouldn't such questions have helped to clarify the situation? Or even verifying with her friend?
Whether she did hear Madeleine or a combination of several children doesn't explain why it took so long to interview her, nor why the interview didn't probe further.
Sound source can be deceptive , however, when it originates from walls and floors directly next to you, the possibility of being wrong diminishes vastly. If I hear a bang from next door I know its from there, I donthave to go outside my house to look listen and wonder, same with floors and cielings. I also think Mrs Fenn listening to the sound for so long adds credence to her testimony,she will have noticed if it was *several* or different children! It wasnt the Paynes as they had a monitor in the restaraunt, it wasnt Obriens kids as he was indoors that night, so which child do you think it was? And where? rachels flat? if so why didnt she check it for over an hour? Where does that put her statements? So, whose child do YOU think it was? And where?
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The truth of the matter is that none of us have any idea.
Because there were two flats below Mrs fenns and another at the side adjoining .... all with a young child or young children in.
Also there were three children sharing a bedroom in the Mccann flat. One start howling and they all would.
Frankly I do not believe that had Madeleine wakened up, she would have wandered into the lounge or into her parents bedroom and stayed there crying.
Madeleine is a pro-active go-getting kid; she wouldn't have hesitated, IMO, from waking her siblings up if she was lonely and cried for long.
also Mrs Fenns hearing is unlikely to have been good and could even be like 3 out of four of us .... such that she could not identify the direction the crying came from ... I usually have no idea where sound comes from these days.
All of four of us are in the same age group as Mrs Fenn was.
Totally unsafe, my dear Red, to say that the sound came from the Mccann flat
Totally unsafe to latch the crying and apparent length of crying to the Mccann family. We just don't know.
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Just why are you so obsessed with sedation?
Trying to manipulate facts are you?
Calpol does NOT sedate
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Just why are you so obsessed with sedation?
Trying to manipulate facts are you?
Calpol does NOT sedate
Of course Calpol doesn't sedate and I have never claimed that it did.
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Sound source can be deceptive , however, when it originates from walls and floors directly next to you, the possibility of being wrong diminishes vastly. If I hear a bang from next door I know its from there, I donthave to go outside my house to look listen and wonder, same with floors and cielings. I also think Mrs Fenn listening to the sound for so long adds credence to her testimony,she will have noticed if it was *several* or different children! It wasnt the Paynes as they had a monitor in the restaraunt, it wasnt Obriens kids as he was indoors that night, so which child do you think it was? And where? rachels flat? if so why didnt she check it for over an hour? Where does that put her statements? So, whose child do YOU think it was? And where?
O'Brien was indoors that night?
No idea about whether the Oldfield's offspring ever woke up.
Kate said that Amelie cried late that evening and that Madeleine had come over to them. That could explain the later crying.
Who else may have been staying in the building with young children within hearing distance?
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Calpol evidently doesn't sedate. Benzodiazepins do as well as they are hypnotic, anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, and amnesic. And these psychoactive drugs leave no trail. Less than 24 hours after, no way to detect them !
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Calpol evidently doesn't sedate. Benzodiazepins do as well as they are hypnotic, anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, and amnesic. And these psychoactive drugs leave no trail. Less than 24 hours after, no way to detect them !
Where is the evidence of benzodiazepins?
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Calpol evidently doesn't sedate. Benzodiazepins do as well as they are hypnotic, anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, and amnesic. And these psychoactive drugs leave no trail. Less than 24 hours after, no way to detect them !
yep, .... so?
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Madeleine is a pro-active go-getting kid; she wouldn't have hesitated, IMO, from waking her siblings up if she was lonely and cried for long.
Possibly and then ?
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yep, .... so?
Sorry ferryman. pls answer his question.
Where is the evidence of benzodiazepins?
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Sorry ferryman. pls answer his question.
Where is the evidence of benzodiazepins?
Please explain how, at this stage, their use can categorically be ruled out ?
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Faith
You are clutching at straws
you have invented something that there is no evidence of ... nor indications of.
Are you Amaral? <<< only joking
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O'Brien was indoors that night?
No idea about whether the Oldfield's offspring ever woke up.
Kate said that Amelie cried late that evening and that Madeleine had come over to them. That could explain the later crying.
Who else may have been staying in the building with young children within hearing distance?
Russel O'Brien stayed in his apartment that night and didn't go to the tapas bar
The Oldfields only have one child ( aged 22 months at the time ) ... Mrs Fenn said it was an older child who she heard crying, and not a baby
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Faith
You are clutching at straws
you have invented something that there is no evidence of ... nor indications of.
Are you Amaral? <<< only joking
There certainly are indications that the twins were sedated, the only question is by whom and with what ?
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The Oldfield baby was 19 months.
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There certainly are indications that the twins were sedated, the only question is by whom and with what ?
Calpol was'nt capable to product that effect. Benzodiazepins were.
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My kids were hearty criers and were like 3-4 year olds from the age of less than a year.
And a child in pain will scream its head off irrespective of its age
Each child is different
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There certainly are indications that the twins were sedated, the only question is by whom and with what ?
Possibly, I agree on May 3rd. That fateful night.
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My kids were hearty criers and were like 3-4 year olds from the age of less than a year.
And a child in pain will scream its head off irrespective of its age
Each child is different
Those of us who are parents are fully aware that babies have a different cry to infants of 4 years of age
It is silly to suggest otherwise
Mrs Fenn did not hear a baby cry that night ... she heard an infant
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You will NOT face facts will you Icabod? My son (especially) cried like a 3-4 year old from a very early age.
Each child is different.
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Where in the files does it say Mrs. Fenn heard an "infant" cry? Thought it was an older child, not a new born?
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Where in the files does it say Mrs. Fenn heard an "infant" cry? Thought it was an older child, not a new born?
I was surprised too : new-born > infant > toddler > child
Mrs Fenn spoke of a "young child" (criança jovem).
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Maybe just a confusion of words.....
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Widow with vital clues was never questioned Daily Express (no longer available online)
BRAVERY: Mrs Fenn challenged intruder
By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz
Saturday August 18,2007
A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.
In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.
It was one of a series of similar crimes reported to Portuguese police.
In a second development Mrs Fenn's niece reported seeing a man who matched the description of a suspect peering into the McCanns holiday apartment around the time Madeleine went missing.
And she revealed vital details of the movements of Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, and their holiday friends in the run up to the night of May 3 - when Madeleine vanished.
Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her.
Incredibly Mrs Fenn, who lives in the apartment directly above the flat the McCanns were staying in, was never interviewed by Portuguese police, it was claimed yesterday.
It was only when a team of British officers were called in to help carry out a major review of the case that the information was acted on.
Now Mrs Fenn will be formally interviewed for the first time by Portuguese detectives at police headquarters in Portimao on Monday morning.
Her niece, who has not been named, will also give a sworn testimony next week, after she was asked to fly to Portugal from Britain.
The Daily Express can reveal they are among a series of witnesses will be called in to give statements in the light of new evidence which has emerged.
Detectives are preparing to swoop on new suspects after a breakthrough in a major new line of inquiry.
Investigators are now working on the theory Madeleine, four, died inside the holiday apartment where her family were staying.
A police source told The Daily Express: "Next week we will be taking statements from several witnesses.
"We want to clarify details which may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in the light of the facts we have found."
Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.
The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.
Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window. She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there.
Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared.
She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends.
Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm.
A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment.
Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out.
A friend of Mrs Fenn told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in.
"She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before.
"Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.
"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment.
"She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement.
"Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.
"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
"She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.
"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday.
"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns' apartment.
"He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.
"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm.
"She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned.
"She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone and she was watching the news at 10.30pm.
"On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs.
"She looked over the balcony and saw the child's mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying 'We've let her down. We've let her down.'
"All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."
Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence.
Under Portugal's strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation.
But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."
Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have.
"They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."
Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns' holiday apartment.
The source said friends of Madeleine's parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.
The source said: "It is possible the McCanns friends will be brought in again but not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests.
"The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them.
"The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."
Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns.
The couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead.
Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory.
The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we meet.
"We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."
A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing.
The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal,she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken.
The woman said: "It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from.
"The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry."
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There are so many things WRONG with that article, its hard to see which bits to believe above the obvious errors and lies DCI
you should have learnt AGES ago that any p aper article is not the truth and nothing but the truth lol, stick to the files if you can
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you should have learnt AGES ago that any p aper article is not the truth and nothing but the truth lol, stick to the files if you can
You should have learnt AGES ago, Redblossom, to bypass this kind of old clowny stuff ! ;)
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You should have learnt AGES ago, Redblossom, to bypass this kind of old clowny stuff ! ;)
Im learning lol, my bad to give benfit of doubt when All has been obliterated, see ya Anne
8)-)))
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Widow with vital clues was never questioned Daily Express (no longer available online)
BRAVERY: Mrs Fenn challenged intruder
By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz
Saturday August 18,2007
A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.
In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.
It was one of a series of similar crimes reported to Portuguese police.
In a second development Mrs Fenn's niece reported seeing a man who matched the description of a suspect peering into the McCanns holiday apartment around the time Madeleine went missing.
And she revealed vital details of the movements of Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, and their holiday friends in the run up to the night of May 3 - when Madeleine vanished.
Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her.
Incredibly Mrs Fenn, who lives in the apartment directly above the flat the McCanns were staying in, was never interviewed by Portuguese police, it was claimed yesterday.
It was only when a team of British officers were called in to help carry out a major review of the case that the information was acted on.
Now Mrs Fenn will be formally interviewed for the first time by Portuguese detectives at police headquarters in Portimao on Monday morning.
Her niece, who has not been named, will also give a sworn testimony next week, after she was asked to fly to Portugal from Britain.
The Daily Express can reveal they are among a series of witnesses will be called in to give statements in the light of new evidence which has emerged.
Detectives are preparing to swoop on new suspects after a breakthrough in a major new line of inquiry.
Investigators are now working on the theory Madeleine, four, died inside the holiday apartment where her family were staying.
A police source told The Daily Express: "Next week we will be taking statements from several witnesses.
"We want to clarify details which may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in the light of the facts we have found."
Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.
The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.
Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window. She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there.
Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared.
She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends.
Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm.
A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment.
Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out.
A friend of Mrs Fenn told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in.
"She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before.
"Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.
"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment.
"She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement.
"Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.
"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
"She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.
"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday.
"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns' apartment.
"He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.
"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm.
"She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned.
"She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone and she was watching the news at 10.30pm.
"On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs.
"She looked over the balcony and saw the child's mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying 'We've let her down. We've let her down.'
"All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."
Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence.
Under Portugal's strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation.
But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."
Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have.
"They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."
Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns' holiday apartment.
The source said friends of Madeleine's parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.
The source said: "It is possible the McCanns friends will be brought in again but not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests.
"The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them.
"The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."
Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns.
The couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead.
Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory.
The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we meet.
"We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."
A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing.
The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal,she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken.
The woman said: "It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from.
"The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry."
Well that's 5 minutes of my life I'm never going to get back !
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Wise observation ! With the permanent bombing of pseudo or disinformation, one had to be highly selective to survive.
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Widow with vital clues was never questioned Daily Express (no longer available online)
BRAVERY: Mrs Fenn challenged intruder
By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz
Saturday August 18,2007
A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.
In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.
It was one of a series of similar crimes reported to Portuguese police.
In a second development Mrs Fenn's niece reported seeing a man who matched the description of a suspect peering into the McCanns holiday apartment around the time Madeleine went missing.
And she revealed vital details of the movements of Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, and their holiday friends in the run up to the night of May 3 - when Madeleine vanished.
Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her.
Incredibly Mrs Fenn, who lives in the apartment directly above the flat the McCanns were staying in, was never interviewed by Portuguese police, it was claimed yesterday.
It was only when a team of British officers were called in to help carry out a major review of the case that the information was acted on.
Now Mrs Fenn will be formally interviewed for the first time by Portuguese detectives at police headquarters in Portimao on Monday morning.
Her niece, who has not been named, will also give a sworn testimony next week, after she was asked to fly to Portugal from Britain.
The Daily Express can reveal they are among a series of witnesses will be called in to give statements in the light of new evidence which has emerged.
Detectives are preparing to swoop on new suspects after a breakthrough in a major new line of inquiry.
Investigators are now working on the theory Madeleine, four, died inside the holiday apartment where her family were staying.
A police source told The Daily Express: "Next week we will be taking statements from several witnesses.
"We want to clarify details which may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in the light of the facts we have found."
Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.
The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.
Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window. She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there.
Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared.
She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends.
Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm.
A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment.
Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out.
A friend of Mrs Fenn told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in.
"She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before.
"Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.
"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment.
"She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement.
"Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.
"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
"She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.
"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday.
"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns' apartment.
"He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.
"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm.
"She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned.
"She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone and she was watching the news at 10.30pm.
"On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs.
"She looked over the balcony and saw the child's mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying 'We've let her down. We've let her down.'
"All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."
Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence.
Under Portugal's strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation.
But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."
Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have.
"They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."
Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns' holiday apartment.
The source said friends of Madeleine's parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.
The source said: "It is possible the McCanns friends will be brought in again but not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests.
"The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them.
"The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."
Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns.
The couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead.
Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory.
The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we meet.
"We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."
A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing.
The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal,she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken.
The woman said: "It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from.
"The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry."
Interesting, a few witnesses in the files also reported the cleaners being able to enter the apartments even if a key had been left in the door on the inside. Very insecure.
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
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There is something not quite right about the crying for an hour and a quarter.
Madeleine would go to the parents room the McCann's said, so why wouldn't she that night? Why call Daddy if he wasn't there? Why Daddy and not Mummy?
To me that sounds as though it was Russell O'Brian's child. Could be a went to bed. His child wasn't well, it makes more sense.
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There is something not quite right about the crying for an hour and a quarter.
Madeleine would go to the parents room the McCann's said, so why wouldn't she that night? Why call Daddy if he wasn't there? Why Daddy and not Mummy?
To me that sounds as though it was Russell O'Brian's child. Could be a went to bed. His child wasn't well, it makes more sense.
Pure supposition.
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Pure supposition.
Pure supposition it was Madeleine crying too Stephen.
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Pure supposition it was Madeleine crying too Stephen.
No it is direct evidence from a witness who was actually there.
Interesting though that the supporters are quite happy to throw Tanner and O'Brien under the proverbial bus when it suits.
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All this wouldn't exist if they had accepted to reconstruct !
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Pure supposition it was Madeleine crying too Stephen.
Nobody knows if it was Madeleine or not, a child was heard crying, the witness THOUGHT it was from below. The PJ didn't even bothered to test whether she would have been able to hear what she said she heard or if she could have heard another apartment. You are more likely to hear sounds from the next door than from below, then you have the issue with open windows. Nobody knows.
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The PJ didn't even bothered to test whether she would have been able to hear what she said she heard
Didn't the McCanns claim Madeleine didn't cry on that night !
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Didn't the McCanns claim Madeleine didn't cry on that night !
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
She says that on that night the twins slept in the room where Madeleine slept, each in their own crib.
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Seems odd, Mrs Fenn heard everything from below her apartment, but didn't hear someone break into he own, through the front door. 8-)(--)
Few interesting reads on here, re Mrs Fenn.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
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Seems odd, Mrs Fenn heard everything from below her apartment, but didn't hear someone break into he own, through the front door. 8-)(--)
Few interesting reads on here, re Mrs Fenn.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
Sorry did I miss the part in Mrs Fenn's statement where she detailed how the burglar may have got in ? One of the reports whoever does say that she disturbed a burglar trying to get in through her window.
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I really do hope that interviews in serious cases start to be recorded. It would make things so much clearer.
On the one hand, the child she heard might have been Madeleine, or she could have heard different children from various apartments over that period of time. It could just as easily have been one of the O'Brien children (a sick child often cries and might have set the other one off as well - from a quick skim-read I haven't found whether he was asked or not), followed by Amelie and possibly Madeleine calling out because she'd been woken up. It's not even clear how big her apartment was (did it span beyond the surface of 5A?) nor where this sound was coming from aside from "the floor below".
A recorded interview might also have avoided any potential misunderstanding as to whether it was the actual crying that she thought wasn't from a "baby of two years or under" or whether it was the child she heard calling "daddy" who seemed older than two.
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Sorry did I miss the part in Mrs Fenn's statement where she detailed how the burglar may have got in ? One of the reports whoever does say that she disturbed a burglar trying to get in through her window.
I doubt that an elderly lady tried to grab hold of a burglar's ankle as he tried to escape from a bedroom window. That sounds implausible to me. However, the attempted burglary is in her statement. The content of her statement to what I presume would have been made to the GNR concerning the details isn't. There is no indication in the files that the PJ had asked her any details about it. They might have checked the GNR report, but if they did, I haven't found any trace of it. It might have been useful if the MO had provided an indication of a pattern.
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Sorry did I miss the part in Mrs Fenn's statement where she detailed how the burglar may have got in ? One of the reports whoever does say that she disturbed a burglar trying to get in through her window.
That shows how much you read a post before jumping.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
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I doubt that an elderly lady tried to grab hold of a burglar's ankle as he tried to escape from a bedroom window. That sounds implausible to me. However, the attempted burglary is in her statement. The content of her statement to what I presume would have been made to the GNR concerning the details isn't. There is no indication in the files that the PJ had asked her any details about it. They might have checked the GNR report, but if they did, I haven't found any trace of it. It might have been useful if the MO had provided an indication of a pattern.
Wonder what she'd planned to do with him after she'd caught his ankles & dragged him back into the apartment. Beat him up with her walking stick?
ETA Honestly, some people chose to believe the weirdest things.....
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Odd how a few alterations can make a big difference, isn't it?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when GERRY was speaking to a policeman, she doesn't know what kind of police force, saying that more police officers were needed to carry out the search.
TRANSLATION BY INES
She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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No wonder the McCanns had the files properly translated.
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That shows how much you read a post before jumping.
"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window."She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.
That doesn't seem to have come from her statement.
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I doubt that an elderly lady tried to grab hold of a burglar's ankle as he tried to escape from a bedroom window. That sounds implausible to me. However, the attempted burglary is in her statement. The content of her statement to what I presume would have been made to the GNR concerning the details isn't. There is no indication in the files that the PJ had asked her any details about it. They might have checked the GNR report, but if they did, I haven't found any trace of it. It might have been useful if the MO had provided an indication of a pattern.
The only mention re. the break-in in her statement is the following:
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
No details whatsoever about the actual incidents from what I can find.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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Odd how a few alterations can make a big difference, isn't it?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1
She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when GERRY was speaking to a policeman, she doesn't know what kind of police force, saying that more police officers were needed to carry out the search.
TRANSLATION BY INES
She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
I hadn't noticed that.
The original:
Refere também um episódio em que o Gerry falou com um Polícia, desconhece a força Policial, alegando que era necessário mais agentes de autoridade par efectuaram a busca.
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I hadn't noticed that.
The original:
Refere também um episódio em que o Gerry falou com um Polícia, desconhece a força Policial, alegando que era necessário mais agentes de autoridade par efectuaram a busca.
Nor me till today, Carana!
Translation of your original, if this is correct?
Also mentions an episode in which Gerry spoke with a police, unaware of the police force, claiming it was necessary more authority agents couple carried out the search.
So why does McCannpjfiles alter to suit, and try to make Gerry look bad?
Any idea who translated the mccann files? Seems the other one can't be trusted!
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I hadn't noticed that.
The original:
Refere também um episódio em que o Gerry falou com um Polícia, desconhece a força Policial, alegando que era necessário mais agentes de autoridade par efectuaram a busca.
Pardon me, but I very much doubt that even can be classed as an honest "mistranslation" - not if you actually have at least rudimentary knowledge of the language.
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Wonder what she'd planned to do with him after she'd caught his ankles & dragged him back into the apartment. Beat him up with her walking stick?
Wonder too what Mrs McCann had in mind when, after just praying and praying and praying, begging God and Our Lady to protect Madeleine and help us find her. she omits Mrs Fenn offered her phone but reports she reacted almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen off a kitchen shelf. ?
It was surely no Christian charity, but was it black humour ?
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What black humour? It's called an allegory. I.e. meaning she said it as though child abduction was an every day occurrence.
And how many times do we have to repeat that Gerry McCann thanked her for her offer to use her phone to call the police but it was not necessary as, as far as Gerry McCann knew, the police had ALREADY been phoned.
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No wonder the McCanns had the files properly translated.
Have you a link proving the McCanns' translator(s) were really good ones (just one example of a misunderstanding in the files' "unprofessional" translation will do) or is it just speculation?
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What black humour? It's called an allegory. I.e. meaning she said it as though child abduction was an every day occurrence.
And how many times do we have to repeat that Gerry McCann thanked her for her offer to use her phone to call the police but it was not necessary as, as far as Gerry McCann knew, the police had ALREADY been phoned.
Seems it wasn't the only time Gerry spoke to Mrs Fenn.
Mrs Ruth McCann (no relation) who owned the 5a apartment that was rented to the McCanns through the Ocean Club complex from where Madeleine was snatched, has tried for two years to sell. Though she dropped the price to £255,000 (£50,000 less than similar properties sell for) she didn’t have a single inquiry. The flat has lain unoccupied since the McCanns left it to return to their Leicestershire home in Rothely in September 2007. And it shows. The varnish on its front door has become faded and stripped by the sun; its garden is overgrown and the hedge, in contrast to those adjacent, is unkempt and bedraggled. “I keep asking the Ocean people to cut it,” says Ian Fenn who inherited the apartment above from his mother, Pamela, who died last month.
Mr Fenn, who lives in England, visits the flat monthly and has witnessed its transformation from white-washed holiday home to a ghoulish, run-down tourist attraction. “There are always tourists who stand outside and get their friends to take their photograph outside 5a,” he says wearily. “They find some ghastly attraction in being pictured at the spot when a little girl was abducted. Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
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Seems it wasn't the only time Gerry spoke to Mrs Fenn.
Mrs Ruth McCann (no relation) who owned the 5a apartment that was rented to the McCanns through the Ocean Club complex from where Madeleine was snatched, has tried for two years to sell. Though she dropped the price to £255,000 (£50,000 less than similar properties sell for) she didn’t have a single inquiry. The flat has lain unoccupied since the McCanns left it to return to their Leicestershire home in Rothely in September 2007. And it shows. The varnish on its front door has become faded and stripped by the sun; its garden is overgrown and the hedge, in contrast to those adjacent, is unkempt and bedraggled. “I keep asking the Ocean people to cut it,” says Ian Fenn who inherited the apartment above from his mother, Pamela, who died last month.
Mr Fenn, who lives in England, visits the flat monthly and has witnessed its transformation from white-washed holiday home to a ghoulish, run-down tourist attraction. “There are always tourists who stand outside and get their friends to take their photograph outside 5a,” he says wearily. “They find some ghastly attraction in being pictured at the spot when a little girl was abducted. Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
Pity Gerry's wife wasn't as kind about Mrs Fenn in her book eh ? Wonder what Mr Fenn thinks of that ?
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Pity Gerry's wife wasn't as kind about Mrs Fenn in her book eh ? Wonder what Mr Fenn thinks of that ?
Putting the boot in again, are you Faith?
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Putting the boot in again, are you Faith?
Just stating facts sadie, a concept I know you are rather unfamiliar with.
I don't suppose Mr Fenn looks too kindly on a woman who, in your parlance, 'put the boot' into his mother when she was no longer here to defend herself, do you ?
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Just stating facts sadie, a concept I know you are rather unfamiliar with.
I don't suppose Mr Fenn looks too kindly on a woman who, in your parlance, 'put the boot' into his mother when she was no longer here to defend herself, do you ?
once again you are twisting my words
tis you that is putting the boot into Kate
... and you know it
Does it give you a good feeling? Putting the boot in to a mother who has lost her daughter ... and who has done nothing to you, or anyone?
sort of a power surge?
... just asking.
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once again you are twisting my words
tis you that is putting the boot into Kate
... and you know it
Does it give you a good feeling? Putting the boot in to a mother who has lost her daughter ... and who has done nothing to you, or anyone?
sort of a power surge?
... just asking.
This is the question I asked :
'I don't suppose Mr Fenn looks too kindly on a woman who, in your parlance, 'put the boot' into his mother when she was no longer here to defend herself, do you ?'
The courteous thing to do would be to answer it.
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So how did Kate Mccann put the boot in?
Exact words and full sentences with exact sources, please Faith
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So how did Kate Mccann put the boot in?
Exact words and full sentences with exact sources, please Faith
Here you go sadie. Enjoy !
From Madeleine by Kate McCann
'Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice, inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and to the point.'
If that's not putting the boot in to an elderly lady, long since deceased, then I don't know what is.
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And you?
Had you lost your child and been frantic. What would you have said?
From your posts on here it is obvious that you are not overcome by politeness. In fact the reverse
What is more you would never have the honesty to admit your failing, as kate bravely did.
Same as you cannot bring yourself to admit that at Aoife Smiths sighting bundleman did NOT go west. Nor can you bring yourself to apologise.
I apologised to you when I was mistaken. Hows about a reciprocal apology from you, when I proved you wrong ... and after all your sneers and jibes at me?
Are you too weak to do that? 8)-)))
Another case of putting the boot in. Being judgemental without consideration for the extreme circumstances.
And POT calling the kettle black again 8-)(--)
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And you?
Had you lost your child and been frantic. What would you have said?
From your posts on here it is obvious that you are not overcome by politeness. In fact the reverse
What is more you would never have the honesty to admit your failing, as kate bravely did.
Same as you cannot bring yourself to admit that at aoife Smiths sighting bundleman did NOT go west. Nor can you bring yourself to apologise.
I apologised to you when I was mistaken. Hows about a reciprocal apology from you, when I proved you wrong ... and after all your sneers and jibes at me?
Are you too weak to do that? 8)-)))
Another case of putting the boot in. Being judgemental without consideration for the extreme circumstances.
And POT calling the kettle black again 8-)(--)
Tell me Sadie, whose fault is it that Madeleine is missing ?
Yes the Mccanns.
Not a judgement, simply the truth.
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The abductors.
A thief .... is a theif .... is a thief .... is a villian
Simples
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The abductors.
A thief .... is a theif .... is a thief .... is a villian
Simples
On that I agree with you as regards your theory.
Simples.
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Tell me Sadie, whose fault is it that Madeleine is missing ?
Yes the Mccanns.
Not a judgement, simply the truth.
Most certainly NOT the truth. The fault lies solely and squarely with the abductor who stole the child from her bed.
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Most certainly NOT the truth. The fault lies solely and squarely with the abductor who stole the child from her bed.
Who says so ?
No evidence, just a rumour (everything locked,forced shutters etc.) propagated by the media echo chamber.
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Who says so ?
No evidence, just a rumour (everything locked,forced shutters etc.) propagated by the media echo chamber.
Myths again Anne
Facts: There were two witnesses. Jane Tanner was a golden one..... but ALL the British witnesses were ignored by Amaral .... the whizz-kid.
Plus SY have found it to be an abduction
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Myths again Anne
Facts: There were two witnesses. Jane Tanner was a golden one..... but ALL the British witnesses were ignored by Amaral .... the whizz-kid.
Plus SY have found it to be an abduction
No evidence, no fact. Read the AG's report.
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And you?
Had you lost your child and been frantic. What would you have said?
From your posts on here it is obvious that you are not overcome by politeness. In fact the reverse
What is more you would never have the honesty to admit your failing, as kate bravely did.
Same as you cannot bring yourself to admit that at Aoife Smiths sighting bundleman did NOT go west. Nor can you bring yourself to apologise.
I apologised to you when I was mistaken. Hows about a reciprocal apology from you, when I proved you wrong ... and after all your sneers and jibes at me?
Are you too weak to do that? 8)-)))
Another case of putting the boot in. Being judgemental without consideration for the extreme circumstances.
And POT calling the kettle black again 8-)(--)
If Kate had any respect for the feelings of Mrs Fenn's family she would not have included the alleged incident ( Mrs Fenn remembers it differently ) in her book and she would certainly not have tried to justify her behaviour.
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If Kate had any respect for the feelings of Mrs Fenn's family she would not have included the alleged incident ( Mrs Fenn remembers it differently ) in her book and she would certainly not have tried to justify her behaviour.
Mrs McCann has a irresistible tendency to show clearly her will to strike down any element or person that denies the orthodox version, theirs, and puts the victim mother at risk. Mrs Fenn had the misfortune to reveal 1) children weren't checked every 30 minutes and 2) the McCann system didn't work as a baby sitter would have, who had called and made them be there in a minute. All this for only a few miserable pounds.
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Mrs McCann has a irresistible tendency to show clearly her will to strike down any element or person that denies the orthodox version, theirs, and puts the victim mother at risk. Mrs Fenn had the misfortune to reveal 1) children weren't checked every 30 minutes and 2) the McCann system didn't work as a baby sitter would have, who had called and made them be there in a minute. All this for only a few miserable pounds.
I disagree Anne - In her book Kate says
Tonight (2nd May) it was Rachael's turn to be feeling a bit under the weather and she gave dinner a miss, remaining in her apartment next to ours. The only other difference was that after dinner we ventured into the enclosed bar area - where it was, to my relief, warmer - for a liqueur. As a result we went back to our apartments a little later than normal. It also meant that the time between our last check of the children and our return was longer, closer to 45 minutes.
End quote
Kate has no problem admitting that on that one occasion they exceeded the 30mins 'rule'. If she had not wanted that to be 'revealed' as you are implying - she wouldn't have included that info in her book.
Personally I would no more allow anyone I had only just met - and knew nothing about - to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children, any more than I would have dreamed of doing that at home.
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I disagree Anne - In her book Kate says
Tonight (2nd May) it was Rachael's turn to be feeling a bit under the weather and she gave dinner a miss, remaining in her apartment next to ours. The only other difference was that after dinner we ventured into the enclosed bar area - where it was, to my relief, warmer - for a liqueur. As a result we went back to our apartments a little later than normal. It also meant that the time between our last check of the children and our return was longer, closer to 45 minutes.
End quote
Kate has no problem admitting that on that one occasion they exceeded the 30mins 'rule'. If she had not wanted that to be 'revealed' as you are implying - she wouldn't have included that info in her book.
Personally I would no more allow anyone I had only just met - and knew nothing about - to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children, any more than I would have dreamed of doing that at home.
8@??)( Exactly.
Neither would I.
With an unknown baby sitter, chances of child abuse soar relative to the infinitesimally small chances of child abduction from their bed.
No way would I have had a stranger baby sit my children. FULL STOP !
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This was Kate's Book. Warts and all. This is what it was all about.
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8@??)( Exactly.
Neither would I.
With an unknown baby sitter, chances of child abuse soar relative to the infinitesimally small chances of child abduction from their bed.
No way would I have had a stranger baby sit my children. FULL STOP !
Amaral said someone made a note of how often, they checked the children?
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Most certainly NOT the truth. The fault lies solely and squarely with the abductor who stole the child from her bed.
Utter rubbish. The mccanns left their children unattended bar the odd check. They are responsible not some fictitious abductor.
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Myths again Anne
Facts: There were two witnesses. Jane Tanner was a golden one..... but ALL the British witnesses were ignored by Amaral .... the whizz-kid.
Plus SY have found it to be an abduction
The same SY team who got it badly wrong in the Jill Dando case.
Redwood who asked the other day for people to look for Madeleine !
i.e. He literally hasn't a clue.
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The same SY team who got it badly wrong in the Jill Dando case.
Redwood who asked the other day for people to look for Madeleine !
i.e. He literally hasn't a clue.
You object to the public being asked to look for Madeleine!!??? Poor little girl.
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You object to the public being asked to look for Madeleine!!??? Poor little girl.
Don't be stupid.
Now exactly what would she look like if she was alive ?
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Don't be stupid.
Now exactly what would she look like if she was alive ?
Probably quite like the latest computer analysis piccie of how she would look today - which Andy Redwood referred to.
Anyway, are you saying people should not be looking for her on the grounds that no-one knows for sure exactly what she looks like? Is your message 'Don't bother to give her another thought'.? If so, then how mean is that.
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May be the public should look for, instead a virtual young girl, any child likely victim of bad treatments. Remember Cosette, Oliver Twist, etc.
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May be the public should look for, instead a virtual young girl, any child likely victim of bad treatments. Remember Cosette, Oliver Twist, etc.
you are not sickening for something are you Anne?
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Probably quite like the latest computer analysis piccie of how she would look today - which Andy Redwood referred to.
Anyway, are you saying people should not be looking for her on the grounds that no-one knows for sure exactly what she looks like? Is your message 'Don't bother to give her another thought'.? If so, then how mean is that.
The image is just that, an image.
Meanwhile Benice, have you been out searching for Madeleine ?
Would you stop someone in the street and grab hold of them, and then call the police ?
What would you do, if yes is your answer, and the people with the girl took offense with your behaviour ?
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The same SY team who got it badly wrong in the Jill Dando case.
Redwood who asked the other day for people to look for Madeleine !
i.e. He literally hasn't a clue.
There is more than one way of looking, Stephen.
I am still actively looking.
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Amaral said someone made a note of how often, they checked the children?
At the time when the Irish tourist reportedly saw Gerry, there are various witness statements that place the child’s father at the Ocean Club.
They are not credible. The employees are unable to tell at what time the persons were there, for how long each one of them stayed away when they say they went to the apartments. And the group is not credible. They say that on the previous nights, every 30 minutes, each one of them went to check only on his own children; but on that night, between 9.30 and 10 p.m., someone curiously goes to check that apartment, almost every five minutes, leaving the rest unchecked.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
(21 July interview). Correction: 24 July.
I've no idea where he got that idea from...
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Just more make believe and story telling, Carana
To try and bull up his argument.
Where in the rog statements does it say every 5 minutes? It is just make believe by Amaral.
In actual fact it was every half hour with an additional check by Matt
The whole case seems to have been riddled with disiformation, twisted facts, myths, propaganda and downright lies to try and "prove" Amarals ideas
.... and make his libel non-libellous, in the eyes of the trusting.
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At the time when the Irish tourist reportedly saw Gerry, there are various witness statements that place the child’s father at the Ocean Club.
They are not credible. The employees are unable to tell at what time the persons were there, for how long each one of them stayed away when they say they went to the apartments. And the group is not credible. They say that on the previous nights, every 30 minutes, each one of them went to check only on his own children; but on that night, between 9.30 and 10 p.m., someone curiously goes to check that apartment, almost every five minutes, leaving the rest unchecked.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
(21 July interview).
I've no idea where he got that idea from...
Its the 24th July interview Carana.
Terrible memory he seems to have 8()(((@#
So all employee's would know the children were in the apartment
Chapter 2
During the parents' dinner, the children again sleep alone. A restaurant employee notes on the reception register that certain members of the group get up in turn to go and make sure they are OK.
He confirms some myths, though!
THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED
Chapter 3
Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there.
MISSING PERSONS POSTER IS ISSUED
In the afternoon, WE ask the Public Minister for authorisation to issue a missing persons poster to the press. It is published on May 5th, accompanied by a photo of the child and telephone numbers.
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Personally I would no more allow anyone I had only just met - and knew nothing about - to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children, any more than I would have dreamed of doing that at home.
i suppose crb checked young female nannies who look after kids all day have a long history of abusing children they are paid for by Mark Warner to babysit at night. Is that it? And that probably impossible scenario is more of a risk than leaving three toddlers on their own in a flat open to all and sundry let alone the danger of them potentially waking and coming to harm night after night? Ok then. Fuzzy logic. i suppose also by that logic no one would use the night creche either, just imagine charlotte pennington or cat baker abusing them kids,hey? Pathetic in reality, anyone that paranoid would also think a potential abuser could enter their open flat! and not that it would never ever have crossed their minds!
Eta
And lets not forget what they said, it was a long way to the millenium and they didnt have a buggy, so when they realised they could eat at the Tapas Bar just fifty metres away, they thought great! Inferring it would be easier for the children, only they decided not to take the children, quoting it was not their routine to stay up past 7 pm or whatever. Different excuses!
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I disagree Anne - In her book Kate says
Tonight (2nd May) it was Rachael's turn to be feeling a bit under the weather and she gave dinner a miss, remaining in her apartment next to ours. The only other difference was that after dinner we ventured into the enclosed bar area - where it was, to my relief, warmer - for a liqueur. As a result we went back to our apartments a little later than normal. It also meant that the time between our last check of the children and our return was longer, closer to 45 minutes.
End quote
Kate has no problem admitting that on that one occasion they exceeded the 30mins 'rule'. If she had not wanted that to be 'revealed' as you are implying - she wouldn't have included that info in her book.
Personally I would no more allow anyone I had only just met - and knew nothing about - to spend hours alone in my apartment with my children, any more than I would have dreamed of doing that at home.
One occasion OK, two occasions, hum hum, and you neglect the fact that Mrs Fenn heard crying, she wasn't checking the checks..
They left their kids in the creche all day with the same nannies they "knew nothing about and had just met", who made a bit extra money at night ! Couldn't they check the sitter once in a while as well, in order to be very sure ?
Personally you would prefer to leave your kids alone than sleeping under the control of someone they're familiar to in day time but not at night ?
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Just more make believe and story telling, Carana
To try and bull up his argument.
Where in the rog statements does it say every 5 minutes? It is just make believe by Amaral.
In actual fact it was every half hour with an additional check by Matt
The whole case seems to have been riddled with disiformation, twisted facts, myths, propaganda and downright lies to try and "prove" Amarals ideas
.... and make his libel non-libellous, in the eyes of the trusting.
Oldfield's May 4th statement : 'That during the meal, it was usual that every 15 minutes (as on all some of the adults went to the apartments to check if the children were sleeping'
O'Brien's May 4th statement : 'While they were eating, it was normal that every 15 minutes, one person from each apartment would go to the apartments/bedrooms make sure the children were ok. '
Tanner's May 4th statement : 'Normally, every 15 minutes a member from each apartment would go and check the bedrooms of the respective children to see if everything was all right.'
Yvonne Martin's statement : 'Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour. '
Pick the bones out of that !
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I dont see why anyone has a problem with the possibility that Mrs Fenn was right, and that on that night, possibly the Mccanns just not checking. After all, they felt it was so safe. And after a bottle of wine each and a good night out, they would be more relaxed about things, after having done it three nights in a row. Just because they said they checked, doesnt mean they did.
As for it being OBriens kid, if it was, why didnt he say so!
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Oldfield's May 4th statement : 'That during the meal, it was usual that every 15 minutes (as on all some of the adults went to the apartments to check if the children were sleeping'
O'Brien's May 4th statement : 'While they were eating, it was normal that every 15 minutes, one person from each apartment would go to the apartments/bedrooms make sure the children were ok. '
Tanner's May 4th statement : 'Normally, every 15 minutes a member from each apartment would go and check the bedrooms of the respective children to see if everything was all right.'
Yvonne Martin's statement : 'Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour. '
Pick the bones out of that !
Well I thought that I had answered this, but seems not.
Every 15 minutes is NOT every 5 minutes as .. was it Amaral? ..was saying
These are the statements aparantly of the other tapas members. I haven't checked them btw.
Kate and Gerry are very clear about the checking: THey said nothing about every 5 minutes or every 15 minutes
1) They arrived at restaurant at 8.30
2) A sound check was made by (IIRC) Matt at 9.00
3) Gerry wasn't satisfied with a sound check so went himself, visually checking between about 9.05 and 9.15.
4) Matt, who possibly had picked up vibes that Gerry and Kate wanted a proper check, visually checked at about 9.40 However, he did not enter the room enough to see Madeleine ,so the check was unfortunately just the twins + no sounds from Madeleine.
5) Kate checked and found Madeleine missing.
A visual check like this by family and friends is vastly better than a check supposedly every 30 minutes by hotel staff, who I think do not even enter the apartment. Even if they did, who would want strangers checking their kids? Thousands of people accept this hotel checking every year and I have never heard anyone complain about until the Mccann case. And the Mccanns system was appreciably better.
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Well I thought that I had answered this, but seems not.
Every 15 minutes is NOT every 5 minutes as .. was it Amaral? ..was saying
These are the statements aparantly of the other tapas members. I haven't checked them btw.
Kate and Gerry are very clear about the checking: THey said nothing about every 5 minutes or every 15 minutes
1) They arrived at restaurant at 8.30
2) A sound check was made by (IIRC) Matt at 9.00
3) Gerry wasn't satisfied with a sound check so went himself, visually checking between about 9.05 and 9.15.
4) Matt, who possibly had picked up vibes that Gerry and Kate wanted a proper check, visually checked at about 9.40 However, he did not enter the room enough to see Madeleine ,so the check was unfortunately just the twins + no sounds from Madeleine.
5) Kate checked and found Madeleine missing.
A visual check like this by family and friends is vastly better than a check supposedly every 30 minutes by hotel staff, who I think do not even enter the apartment. Even if they did, who would want strangers checking their kids? Thousands of people accept this hotel checking every year and I have never heard anyone complain about until the Mccann case. And the Mccanns system was appreciably better.
And leaving the children in an unsecured apartment. How was that 'appreciably' better ?
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I recall that the night in question was also the night of the quiz at the Tapas bar. The aerobics instructor, who gave the quiz, was invited to the table by Gerry McCann and remained with them for about half an hour
I can't remember the details of her witness statement, but I believe she said she did not remember Kate being there
Could it be possible that Kate was in the apartment when those calls were made ? ( it seems unlikely that she would be on the phone so much at the dinner table )
That topic was discussed last June, 6 months back !
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That topic was discussed last June, 6 months back !
Thanks for resurrecting this thread Anne ... it went horribly off-topic didn't it
As far as I remember, though, it was never disputed that Kate could have been in the apartment ( using her phone ) during the crying period witnessed by Mrs Fenn
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Thanks for resurrecting this thread Anne ... it went horribly off-topic didn't it
As far as I remember, though, it was never disputed that Kate could have been in the apartment ( using her phone ) during the crying period witnessed by Mrs Fenn
We have to go through those posts now. Mrs B seemed to say that there was no "ping" for Mrs McCann's phone, so how did we get to the conclusion she could have called someone in the flat (I remember it was before 22h30 though, and we thought Madeleine could have heard her and started to cry when she left the flat again) ?
I'm afraid I never understood if the "pings" are identical when you call, are called, send a sms, receive a sms. I'm very allergic not to those cellphones but to the use people make of them.