I can give an instance where a cadaver dog repeatedly alerted to places that were said to have had bodies and body parts placed but which turned out to be completely false. Google Zampo the cadaver dog.
Zampo alerted to a total of 45 places in the woods, all false alerts. Of course, ths doesn't address the thread question and is in no way relevant to the accuracy or otherwise of cadaver dogs. @)(++(*
Wouldn't that question require an FOI to every police force / private dog handling business in each country that uses such dogs? Or is the assumption that if a missing person is found alive that the media in whichever country will automatically mention whether cadaver dogs were deployed or not and stipulate where?
is it now being claimed that eddie alerted to Maddie....Grime has never claimed eddis's alert was to Maddie so the whole thread is bogus
How many instances are there of missing persons turning up alive after cadaver dog alerts?In the Mccann case
For example, Shannon Mathews, there was a dog alert in that case, yet she turned up alive!
Can members here give any other examples of missing persons cases where dogs alerted but missing persons turned up alive?
You're right, it doesn't.Fair enough, but perhaps you could explain to us all why 45 false alerts by a cadaver dog in one case alone are not relevant to the question of accuracy in these dogs?
Could have just said no, would have been quicker.
Fair enough, but perhaps you could explain to us all why 45 false alerts by a cadaver dog in one case alone are not relevant to the question of accuracy in these dogs?
Did a missing person turn up alive in that particular case?
Did a missing person turn up alive in that particular case?No. So you've proved what exactly? That apart from the Shannon Matthews case none of us knows of another instance of a dog alerting to a cadaver in a missing person case and then that person turning up alive? Well done you, you won. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
How many instances are there of missing persons turning up alive after cadaver dog alerts?
For example, Shannon Mathews, there was a dog alert in that case, yet she turned up alive!
Can members here give any other examples of missing persons cases where dogs alerted but missing persons turned up alive?
Gina De Jesus turned up alive by the way, despite the fact that cadaver dog alerted in the house of a suspect who turned out to have nothing to do with her disappearance. Just wanted to be clear on that point. ?{)(**
So that's a no from you aswell then.
Anyone else?
Better find another example as that's a myth old boy. Police got a tip off to dig under the garage not from a cadaver dog.
Two of the locations where the dog sat, the indicator used to alert police, were in Hurayt's garage, where an informant told investigators Hurayt had buried the girl's body beneath a freshly poured concrete floor. Investigators tore up the floor in the garage and under a doghouse.
The dog also alerted to a location in the house, Driscoll said.
Better find another example as that's a myth old boy. Police got a tip off to dig under the garage not from a cadaver dog.If you read the article I quoted it acknowledged that police received a tip off from an informant. They supposedly received corroboration from the tip off by the alert of the cadaver dog, in fact it's probably a very good example of unconscious handler bias. I have provided proof of another case of a false alert in a missing person case, one where the missing person turned up alive. This must be very galling for you, I admit. @)(++(*
No, it's not a "no" from me.
The question is unanswerable.
The question would be better rephrased as, how many instances are there of missing persons turning up alive after a police dog handler calls a positive alert to a cadaver?
The question would be better rephrased as, how many instances are there of missing persons turning up alive after a police dog handler calls a positive alert to a cadaver?How many instances are required before people start to accept that cadaver dogs and / or their handlers sometimes get things wrong?
Alternatively, how many cadaver dog handlers have publicised false alerts?
Also, you need to define 'false alert.
An alert within a dog's scent-range might, simply, be of no value to a criminal enquiry.
Eddie's alert to Gerry's blood in the Renault Scenic is a classic example; a reaction within the dog's trained repertoire but just not helpful to the enquiry.
So not a false alert.
Just confounding rather than assisting.
So, apart from in the case of Shannon Matthews and the case of Gina De Jesus does anyone know of any other cases where a cadaver dog alerted in a missing persons case and the missing person then turned up alive? How many cases do we need to find in order to prove or disprove whatever it is we are trying to prove or disprove, does anyone know?
AFAIK, in the Shannon Matthews case, the dog alerted to the bed because an old man had died in it years before and the parents had bought it 2nd hand.And your point is...?
AFAIK, in the Shannon Matthews case, the dog alerted to the bed because an old man had died in it years before and the parents had bought it 2nd hand.
Yes I heard this....I also heard that the Jersey coconut had fallen off a tree, hit someone on the head and killed them....so the alert was in fact genuine.
There's no perhaps about it. Eddie solves crimes and he solved this one. It's up to SY to corroborate his alerts and new forensics are on their way Ferryman.
Eddie (indeed any dog!) gives alerts to scents.
Humans solve crimes.
Here is a challenge to anyone game enough to take it up.
Find where Mark Harrison makes reference in his report to the inspection in the gym.
I'll give you a clue.
There is one, after it had happened.
But there is none before ...
Just off the top of my head ... would that be when he passed over literature which gave instruction on how such a search should be conducted?
Madeleine is wearing a pink skirt/dress in the pool photo and the pink elastic band.
1&2 - One envelope containing one (01) elastic band made of synthetic material, used to tie hair.
1 - Page 287 (Marked: 1 & 2) An undated and unsigned hand-written note, very difficult to read but appearing to be written by a police officer from Aljezur, stating that on 4 (or 9) May around 06:00am (s)he found an 'elastica para o cabelo' (hair elastic?), abandoned/lost on the floor of (what could be) the back of the parents' bedroom.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUNDRYS.htm
(http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/esteri/bimba-rapita/afp104564692505151527_big.jpg)
What a total load of bollox. Those dogs are trained daily to keep them in top condition. They are professionals.
Another crime solved by Eddie.
Devon, UK
A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.
A few contradictions to what Grime said.
Scaffolder given life for Charlotte murder
Last updated at 13:50 17 February 2005
Scaffolder Nicholas Rose was today found guilty of murdering missing 16-year-old Charlotte Pinkney by a jury at Exeter Crown Court.
Rose, 23, of Foreland View, Ilfracombe, north Devon, had denied murdering Charlotte between February 27 and March 8 last year.
The teenager's body has never been found despite extensive police searches.
A button of the type on her trousers waistband was found in the vacuum cleaner Rose had used in the car.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-338159/Scaffolder-given-life-Charlotte-murder.html#ixzz3NxBMdozu
Well, we know Eddie alerted to blood on the key fob and Gerry turned up alive!!
It would be difficult to find out about any cases where cadaver dogs may have been employed and not have helped in the case.
We don't know if Madeleine is alive or dead.
So, this just turned into another dog thread, that must be a relief for Spammy. 8(0(*
We also know that Keela alerted to blood (15 alleles match) in the boot and Eddie was chasing the scent a good distance away from the car. Take note:
The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. (MG)
So claiming that Eddie barked at the wardrobe for instance - is not necessarily the 'fact' which some people claim it is.
IMO the bottom line regarding sniffer dogs is that it is far from the 'exact science' some people would like to think it is - and so much depends on the handler - regardless of how brilliant the dogs abilities are - which they undoubtedly are IMO.
Why are the dog apologists here not interested in discussing the false alerts in the case of missing Gina Dejesus, a missing person who turned up alive?
Reports said it was from a police tip not a cadaver dog alert to dig up the garage.Yes, you've already made that point yet failed to respond when I pointed out that the dogs were brought in IN RESPONSE to the tip off and then falsely alerted in the garage and the house. So, what's your explanation for that then?
CLEVELAND — Three women who went missing as teenagers about a decade ago were found alive Monday in a residential area just south of downtown, within a few miles of where they disappeared. An unnamed man has been arrested.
Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michele Knight were found Monday and seemed to be in good health.
In January, a prison inmate was sentenced to 4 1/2 years after admitting he provided a false burial tip in the disappearance of Berry, who had last been seen the day before her 17th birthday. A judge in Cleveland sentenced Robert Wolford on his guilty plea to obstruction of justice, making a false report and making a false alarm.
Last summer, Wolford tipped authorities to look for Berry’s remains in a Cleveland lot. He was taken to the location, which was dug up with backhoes.
Two men arrested for questioning in the disappearance of DeJesus in 2004 were released from the city jail in 2006 after officers did not find her body during a search of the men’s house.
In September 2006, police acting on a tip tore up the concrete floor of the garage and used a cadaver dog to search unsuccessfully for DeJesus’ body. Investigators confiscated 19 pieces of evidence during their search but declined to comment on the significance of the items then.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/06/two-women-missing-for-a-decade-found-alive-in-residential-cleveland-home/
Spammy may have to hold off on the celebrations after all... @)(++(*bump.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/judge_orders_release_of_man_su.html
Judge orders release of man suspected in Gina DeJesus' disappearance (republished)
A judge ordered Matthew Hurayt released from the Cuyahoga County Jail Monday, overriding the protests of prosecutors who maintain he may have been involved in the disappearance of Gina DeJesus.
Assistant County Prosecutor Jennifer Driscoll said a police dog trained to alert officers to the scent of cadavers “indicated” in three locations at Hurayt's West 50th Street home on Friday that a dead body may have been present at one time.
Two of the locations where the dog sat, the indicator used to alert police, were in Hurayt's garage, where an informant told investigators Hurayt had buried the girl's body beneath a freshly poured concrete floor. Investigators tore up the floor in the garage and under a doghouse.
The dog also alerted to a location in the house, Driscoll said.
Police arrested Hurayt, 35, a registered sexual predator, on Thursday based on the informant's tip. But investigators who dug up the garage floor and searched the house didn't find a body or any physical evidence of the girl, who has been missing since April 2004. Nineteen items removed from the house will be investigated further, Driscoll said.
bump.
AFAIK Brietta, the key fob was in the driver's door compartment, so the key fob would only be an inch or so away from Eddie sniffing on the outside. The drivers door being on the left hand side on that car.
I believe the key fob was then put into a bucket of sand, and both dogs alerted to it. Forensic tests revealed Gerry's DNA profile. As both dogs would alert to blood from living people, and both dogs did alert to the key fob and Gerry is alive and kicking, then it seems reasonable to assume it was blood from Gerry which caused the alerts.
If Eddie could detect odour in that situation, then why did he fail to detect any odour from the clothing in the villa - some of which may well have been in drawers - also an inch or so away from his nose. but which he later 'alerted' to when they were laid out on the gym. I have wondered whether there was simply no odour present for him to detect whilst the clothing was in the villa.
So, despite the tip, Jesus had never been there, & she wasn't buried under the garage, right.
Ok, so, who told Grime that Maddie was dead in the wardrobe, behind the sofa & under a bush in the back garden, which caused him to cue Eddie to alert there?
Amaral? He was convinced that the bag in the wardrobe was suspicious, as was the sofa against the wall.
That b*stard Amaral, he told Grime where he wanted the alerts!
That figures, he had it in for them from day one, for some reason.
Spammy seems to be suggesting that dog alerts after a tip off is a different thing to dog alerts with no tip off. Now why would that be, I wonder...? &%+((£
'If you read the article I quoted it acknowledged that police received a tip off from an informant. They supposedly received corroboration from the tip off by the alert of the cadaver dog, in fact it's probably a very good example of unconscious handler bias.'
Only, Jesus had never actually been there.
Alas, Maddie was last seen alive(allegedly) in 5a, no tip off that she was dead!
Eddie alerted there.
'If you read the article I quoted it acknowledged that police received a tip off from an informant. They supposedly received corroboration from the tip off by the alert of the cadaver dog, in fact it's probably a very good example of unconscious handler bias.'You've completely failed to make a sensible point.
Only, Jesus had never actually been there.
Alas, Maddie was last seen alive(allegedly) in 5a, no tip off that she was dead!
Eddie alerted there.
You've completely failed to make a sensible point.
No one tipped of Grime, Eddie alerted, several times.Nope, still not making any sense.
Jesus was never there, Maddie was.
Nope, still not making any sense.
Spammy seems to be suggesting that dog alerts after a tip off is a different thing to dog alerts with no tip off. Now why would that be, I wonder...? &%+((£
Eddie alerted where Maddie were last seen, unlike that there Jesus case, where she had never been....
Eddie alerted where Maddie were last seen, unlike that there Jesus case, where she had never been....So what?
And you don't know if a dead body has been in there. Doesn't mean it had to DeJesus.@)(++(* And did they find even one molecule of dead body under the garage or in the house? Was Hurayt ever charged with anyone's murder? You really are clutching at straws, typical dog apologist!
Cleveland, OH - There is new information surrounding a "person of interest" in the disappearance of west side teenager Gina DeJesus.
Matthew Hurayt was arrested and now facing a slew of charges including arson, insurance fraud, forgery, felony assault and abduction.
He's also accused of intimidation and more.
Cops call Hurayt one bad guy.
This, after officials dug up Hurayt's garage last month looking for clues in the disappearance of DeJesus - but came up empty.
http://www.19actionnews.com/story/5595121/more-trouble-for-matthew-hurayt
alert does not equal cadaver...I know that's a bit much for some to understand..but it's what Grime said...but what does he know compared to the experts on here
It doesn't mean the dog is wrong as the Mathews case proved. It doesn't mean a dead body hadn't been in there in regards to the DeJesus case. Better go to the source not from a report before claiming their dogs were wrong.
It doesn't mean the dog is wrong as the Mathews case proved. It doesn't mean a dead body hadn't been in there in regards to the DeJesus case. Better go to the source not from a report before claiming their dogs were wrong.So a cadaver dog can never give a false alert then, even if it alerts and no body or trace of a body is discovered, is that your view?
doesn't mean he's right either...could always toss a coin
It doesn't mean the dog is wrong as the Mathews case proved. It doesn't mean a dead body hadn't been in there in regards to the DeJesus case. Better go to the source not from a report before claiming their dogs were wrong.
Well ya clutching at straws to find cases aren't ya? There's countless cases of cadaver alerts being spot on and Grime's dogs were considered the best that's why the FBI wanted him.
Well ya clutching at straws to find cases aren't ya? There's countless cases of cadaver alerts being spot on and Grime's dogs were considered the best that's why the FBI wanted him."Cadaver dog alerts, nothing found" is a headline on a par with "small earthquake in Indonesia, no one injured", ie: not very interesting news to 99.9% of the world's population.
if he's that good why could grime not confirm the alerts
So a cadaver dog can never give a false alert then, even if it alerts and no body or trace of a body is discovered, is that your view?bump
Because if Eddie ever gave a false alert Grime is covered. But Grime knows Eddie has never given him a false alert and he would say that in a court of law if it is required.
OK Stay on the Topic please.....We are still looking for Dog alerts when a person is later found alive. thanks
It's interesting Anna that 137 posts in and we still haven't found any.
That is true Faith, with the exception of two.
But how often do you hear of a earthquake warning, when it is proved to be wrong, before it has been broadcasted.
It's interesting Anna that 137 posts in and we still haven't found any.
Sorry, which 2 were those?you people are priceless. I suggest you read pages 1 & 2 of this thread again before commenting further
you people are priceless. I suggest you read pages 1 & 2 of this thread again before commenting further
ETA: page 1 will do.
So much BS is thrown about by the believers, that it would be handy to just point out the 2.
So much BS is thrown about by the believers, that it would be handy to just point out the 2.How very rude and lazy you are.
Spammy may have to hold off on the celebrations after all... @)(++(*
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/judge_orders_release_of_man_su.html
Judge orders release of man suspected in Gina DeJesus' disappearance (republished)
A judge ordered Matthew Hurayt released from the Cuyahoga County Jail Monday, overriding the protests of prosecutors who maintain he may have been involved in the disappearance of Gina DeJesus.
Assistant County Prosecutor Jennifer Driscoll said a police dog trained to alert officers to the scent of cadavers “indicated” in three locations at Hurayt's West 50th Street home on Friday that a dead body may have been present at one time.
Two of the locations where the dog sat, the indicator used to alert police, were in Hurayt's garage, where an informant told investigators Hurayt had buried the girl's body beneath a freshly poured concrete floor. Investigators tore up the floor in the garage and under a doghouse.
The dog also alerted to a location in the house, Driscoll said.
Police arrested Hurayt, 35, a registered sexual predator, on Thursday based on the informant's tip. But investigators who dug up the garage floor and searched the house didn't find a body or any physical evidence of the girl, who has been missing since April 2004. Nineteen items removed from the house will be investigated further, Driscoll said.
Hell, why not? Bumped again just to be on the safe side... 8)-)))
Shannon Mathews (Dead guy's bed)Yep
Gina DeJesus (unknown) (but she'd never even been there!)
Maddie had been in 5a though, & Eddie alerted there, so he did.
So we have a dog alerting to a mattress on which an individual had died and Therefore would have left cadaver scent. That the cadaver scent was not tied to Shannon Mathews is immaterial. The dog alerted to the scent it was trained to alert to and was proved correct.
And Gina DeJesus.
Out of the thousands of times these dogs have been deployed over the years the faithful can come up with ONE, JUST ONE case where the missing person was still alive.
Of course we know that cadaver dogs alert to blood too and if a blood dog was not brought in at some point to narrow down the cause of the alert in the DeJesus disappearance, as it was in the McCann case, then there is every possibility that the dog alerted to blood rather than cadaver scent and is therefore vindicated.
Yep
BUT Eddie alerts to several things:
1) Blood from a living person
2) Blody fluids such as semen, saliva, catahhr, urine, nail clippings.
3) Cadavar odour
There were no forensic proofs, so he could have alerted to any one of these ... as you now well know.
Why do you persist in trying to keep this myth alive?
Why did Grime lie that Rose confessed?
Any idea?
No idea.
Now has Charlotte Pinkney turned up alive ?
I think you will find that when the dogs alert to blood, they have no idea whether it is from a live person or a dead body. They don't even know what blood is. In fact they don't know what any of the material is which they can alert to. They don't have that capability. They are only trained to recognise and alert to certain odours - nothing more.
Yes in this case they just alert to blood, but a dog that just alerts to cadaver odour will not alert to blood from a living person, but will alert to blood that came from a dead person simply because the blood was alreadu decomposing when it came out. That is what I've been able to establish, but yep you are right I guess as in the dog is simply alerting to cadaver odour and not blood per se.
Why does Eddie go in first and not the blood dog Keela?
Hmm, but for instance say you suffered a neck wound. Jugular cut. A lot of blood obviously. At some point you would die, but blood would continue to come out for some time after death, no?
I assume dead people don't bleed, because the heart has stopped pumping blood?
Why does Eddie go in first and not the blood dog Keela?
If you read Martin Grime's statements you will see that he clearly states that both his dogs will alert to blood from a living person.
Sorry I'm no good at links - but I can assure you that is what he said. IIRC that info. has been posted many times before.
Because Eddie was the GP and Keela was the haematologist.
*&*%£
There are many threads on the dogs....with this answer.
If the dog is deployed to find a cadaver or the scent of such, it will search first. but since Eddie also alerts to blood, Keela would be sent to check his findings, as she only alerts to blood.
If both alert to a spot= Blood. If Eddie alerts to a spot, but not Keela= Cadaver odour.
There are other reasons why a dog may alert, such as cross contamination.
Dead people do not bleed by the way.
Hmmm.
In Jersey, he alerted to sex clean-up tissues and Grime stated that that was within his training parameters. Keela also reacted to those tissues. However, as it's not clear whether he wrote up his notes as the dogs reacted, there is no way of knowing whether Eddie was reacting to sex fluids or whether Keela's subsequent reaction meant that he may have reacted to microscopic traces of decomposing blood.
In either event, the courting couple were presumably not dead at the time. Grime did state in his rog that Eddie would react to dried blood from a living person. I have never found anything to substantiate that such dogs can distinguish between blood from a living person and post-mortem leakage. Indeed, how would one go about such an experiment?
On the other hand, I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to nail clippings, at least not in normal household quantities and situations. He may also have been taught to ignore toilet bowls and the usual contents of bathroom waste bins. A visual inspection by a human would give the main clue as to whether there was anything suspicious or not.
Back on the other side again, cadaver dogs have been confused by searching for a potential victim in peat bog areas due to methane gas emissions (I did post a link to this at some point on here). If that's the case, such a dog may ignore recent "bathroom" traces, but then how would such a dog ignore the stench in alleyways, underground stations, etc., without being directed by a human's guidance as to suspicious areas?
Only body fluids MIXED with BLOOD.
Agreed. In fact if Eddie made no alerts at a location, Grime did not bother to send Keela in - because he knew that if there had been any blood then Eddie would have alerted.
I think it has been a major mistake to refer to Eddie as a Cadaver dog - which clearly implies that whenever he alerted that means a cadaver must have been present at that spot. That is not true and IMO that description has been the main cause of so much of the misunderstanding by so many people re his alerts. Amaral being one of those people.
Yeah, but sex clean up tissues is not a good example as you state there is likely to be some blood in there and the fact they alerted is unsurprising imo. If the dogs also alert to body fluids such as saliva, semen etc from a living person then we are in different territory altogether. In fact it would be hard to say what the purpose of the dogs is at all. As far I've been able to ascertain the dog only alerts to cadaver odour plus blood.
Much of what i've been able to find out is from a different case and a Q&A from a cadaver dog handler and supposed expert on another forum. She stated explicitly that a dog that is trained to just detect cadaver odour and not blood like Eddie will only alert to that scent and can quite easily discriminate between blood from a dead person and that from a living person simply because of the decomposition. It bugs me that I have to rely on the internet to find this stuff out, but I have found it very hard to acquire any official information about this like a reference book for instance... In the case of the McCanns we know no-one died in the apartment for instance prior to Madeleine's disappearance, but do we know if any of the furniture is second hand and may have been in contact with a dead person? Anyway, these alerts can be misleading due to factors like this and transference of the scent which is supposed to be relatively easy. Add into this the possibility of false alerts and that's why forensic corroboration is vital.
Anyway, regarding the methane point. Perhaps this is a factor that can confuse the dog or mask the smell. However, in a bathroom there would have to be somebody with a serious stomach upset I would assume to give off sufficient methane quanities 8)-)))
Eddie detected cadaver scent months later. SY are digging for a body. Did you miss it? They're spending millions on searching for the body for no reason. No way!
They may know but that doesn't mean they're going to tell us until they get the evidence required to successfully convict.
It could even be that Eddie alerted to a scent of blood, that something with blood on had been in the wardrobe or on the floor.
Your voice on this forum is most refreshing, thank you for posting here. I agree that there is nothing wrong examining the dog alerts in theory,
but
a) they have been examined to the moon and back several dozen times in the last 7 years - the "sceptic" position is firmly that the dogs are never wrong, never, ever, ever whilst the non-sceptic position is: well actually yes they can be and here's the proof (which is then either ignored, belittled, or dismissed by the dog apologists)
and
b) this thread was not started in any sincere attempt at examining anything.
How often do they turn up alive, following dog alerts?Often enough to prove that it can and does happen, that's all that really matters. ?{)(**
Not very.
Often enough to prove that it can and does happen, that's all that really matters. ?{)(**
Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.
Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.
She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.
When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.
Remind me Alfred, how Smithman, the yards prime suspect, fit's in with your logical plausible abduction thesis.Nonsensical, rubbish, off-topic, strawman post, very typical of Spam.
Oh yeah. that's right, he can't!
This thread could go around and around in circles forever. I looked up several cases of missing people being found alive, but they don't mention whether cadaver dogs were ever used or not. The only way of finding an answer would be to send off FOIs (or perhaps find existing ones).
In the Shannon case, the dog did alert correctly, but the alert was irrelevant.
Even if 10 or 20 cases were found, the argument would still be that there is no way of knowing whether a dog correctly alerted, but to a death that was irrelevant to the case in question.
Then there is all the confusion of what "cadaver" scent actually means in the sniffer dog context. It does NOT necessarily mean the scent of a deceased human being - but the scent of decomposing human remains (minus whatever various handlers choose to eliminate from training parameters). (A side issue is the question of confusion with decomposing animal tissue in species in which many of the compounds may also be present...)
The apartment appears to have been shut between when the last of the post-disappearance occupants left and the arrival of the dogs.
No one seems to have questioned the last cleaning personnel to have entered that apartment. There could have been bloody plasters left lying around and removed prior to the dogs arriving from previous occupants for all anyone knows.
Wouldn't Keela have alerted to the places where the plasters had lain ?Yeah, cos dogs and their handlers are 100% infallible and never ever get things wrong, isn't that right Faithlilly?
I'm afraid no matter how supporters try there is no getting around the fact that Eddie alerted in the bedroom, Keela didn't therefore the alert must have been for cadaver scent.
Wouldn't Keela have alerted to the places where the plasters had lain ?
I'm afraid no matter how supporters try there is no getting around the fact that Eddie alerted in the bedroom, Keela didn't therefore the alert must have been for cadaver scent.
Nonsensical, rubbish, off-topic, strawman post, very typical of Spam.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5721.msg210375#newJust answered dear Spammy.
We're discussing whether anyone has ever turned up alive after a dog-alert.
Someone did.
Gerry McCann.
And no matter how many times sceptics try to claim that if only Eddie alerts that means a dead body must have been present - it will never make it true. Ask Martin Grime.
It doesn't make it true. It does however make it the most logical assumption.
It doesn't make it true. It does however make it the most logical assumption.
So did the twins if the little blue shorts and the red T-shirt belonged to one of them. And Kate, for that matter.
One of their family is missing. Eddie indicated that she's dead because he alerted to the family clothes and Keela didn't. And the Smiths saw a child matching her description in a deep sleep or dead.
My goodness PF don't you know that is all a coincidence ? Of course it is three coincidences but pfttt who's counting ?
One of their family is missing. Eddie indicated that she's dead because he alerted to the family clothes and Keela didn't. And the Smiths saw a child matching her description in a deep sleep or dead.
Come on, come on Pfinder, where are the three coincidences there? Let's be sensible about it Purleaze.
There are no coincidences because they all connect and one day you will eat your hat.
And zero evidence of the McCanns' involvement in anything nefarious; same for all their friends.
Can we please, get back on Topica
How many recorded cases have we got? We don't know, of those that were not recorded, of course.
Is it 4?
a pointless thread....