Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 5966 times)

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Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #90 on: October 12, 2018, 10:30:10 AM »
...and Sadie claims that this means there was no body in 5a. Which is an incorrect inference.

There is no confirmation of a body in 5a... To suggest there is an incorrect inference
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The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #91 on: October 12, 2018, 12:26:10 PM »
Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We donít know that the dogs didnít alert to Madeleineís body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didnít.

Please stop promoting myths.

Madeleines body there ?   Half way up the wall ?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 05:13:27 PM by slartibartfast »

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #92 on: October 12, 2018, 12:33:38 PM »
Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We donít know that the dogs didnít alert to Madeleineís body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didnít.

Please stop promoting myths.

The evidence  is that the PJ drew incorrect inferences from the alerts
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #93 on: October 12, 2018, 12:45:24 PM »
No not a properly slaughtered pig - no cadaverine. IMO
Seems to me that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry had a pig.  Leando Silva and Leonor Cipriano had pigs.   Do you think that every T,D and H slaughtered the pigs properly?

Traces of Cadavarine odour from a pig could easily have found their way into the apartment on someones hands ... a c leaner maybe, but personally I think that the only place where there may have been a cadarvarine odour was fairly high on the wall where a bedside table perobably stood.

A grieving widow probably would have kept the Urn/box with the ashes there.    Also the pyjamas that her loved one died in

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2018, 12:52:35 PM »
And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a cafť where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
As Rob says, and he is an expert IIRC, the cadavar of a properly slaughtered piglet would not produce cadavarine.

We are talking of the cadavarine of pigs slaughtered by simple folk in their own gardens here.   Would they use proper practices?    I am doubtful

But in any case the most likely source of that alert .... and let's make it clear, there was only one, was the ashes or the deceased pyjamas on the bedside table.  There to comfort the widow in a foreign country

No cadavar would have been stored up the wall .... just think about Sunny

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #95 on: October 12, 2018, 12:58:29 PM »
Semen is one of them.

And I put semen but mentioned that it was very unlikely for the dog to have alerted to that in some of his alerts.

Do you have any other bodily fluids that come out of a live person?
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Offline xtina

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2018, 01:07:36 PM »
Seems to me that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry had a pig.  Leando Silva and Leonor Cipriano had pigs.   Do you think that every T,D and H slaughtered the pigs properly?

Traces of Cadavarine odour from a pig could easily have found their way into the apartment on someones hands ... a c leaner maybe, but personally I think that the only place where there may have been a cadarvarine odour was fairly high on the wall where a bedside table perobably stood.

A grieving widow probably would have kept the Urn/box with the ashes there.    Also the pyjamas that her loved one died in


I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline Snowgirl

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2018, 01:14:27 PM »
The evidence  is that the PJ drew incorrect inferences from the alerts
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?

Online G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
As Rob says, and he is an expert IIRC, the cadavar of a properly slaughtered piglet would not produce cadavarine.

We are talking of the cadavarine of pigs slaughtered by simple folk in their own gardens here.   Would they use proper practices?    I am doubtful

But in any case the most likely source of that alert .... and let's make it clear, there was only one, was the ashes or the deceased pyjamas on the bedside table.  There to comfort the widow in a foreign country

No cadavar would have been stored up the wall .... just think about Sunny

What? All dead bodies stink eventually no matter how they die. Due to their superior noses dogs are able to detect that smell when humans can't. They can also distinguish between species, which humans can't do either as far as I know.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2018, 02:03:03 PM »
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?

Why were the dogs brought in.... Because death in the apartment was a possibility... That is not opinion but fact..
Death in the apartment always was, a possibility
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 02:05:05 PM by Davel »
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2018, 02:04:35 PM »
And I put semen but mentioned that it was very unlikely for the dog to have alerted to that in some of his alerts.

Do you have any other bodily fluids that come out of a live person?

Urine.. Nasal mucus.. Mucus from any other orifice
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2018, 02:29:12 PM »

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....

But the cleaners might have done ... and there is also the possibility that it was planted.   Remember Ccat being produced out of that cupboard and yet what seemed to have alerted Eddie was the pile of folders  and the loose piece of paper on top? 

Wonder how the scent of cadarvarine got there ?

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2018, 02:32:14 PM »
What? All dead bodies stink eventually no matter how they die. Due to their superior noses dogs are able to detect that smell when humans can't. They can also distinguish between species, which humans can't do either as far as I know.

Ask Rob.  He is the one with slaughter house experience IIRC.  Remember he trained as a vet.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 02:34:40 PM by sadie »

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2018, 02:43:32 PM »

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....
Unless one has the time and equipment for fishing, or land for keeping sheep etc.,the cheapest protein has be home grown pork or chickens.  Just breed them and feed them on scraps.

During the war my hubbies family had a part share in a pig.

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2018, 02:46:50 PM »
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?

Crikey Snowgirl.  Before you joined there were several threads that went over the conclusion that no-one died in 5A.

You cant expect anyone to go over all this YET again

May i suggest that you read back over the past 3 years.