UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on June 28, 2019, 01:00:20 PM
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There's much talk about the possibility MM was drugged/sedated along with the twins by an abductor or the McCanns. I do not believe this to be the case since the science of sleep can provide a more plausible explanation.
I studied the above on a psychology course in the 80's but like most things since then it has been developed further through such things as sleep laboratories.
In a nutshell we go through sleep cycles which feature stages 1 - 4. 3 and 4 are difficult to wake from and this is especially so for small children.
The fact the McCanns are medical doctors would not necessarily mean they had an awareness or knowledge of the science of sleep. It is usually studied on neuroscience, psychology and psychiatry courses.
Matthew Walker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Walker_(scientist)
has written a best selling book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Sleep-Science-Dreams/dp/0141983760/ref=asc_df_0141983760/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310834580283&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4294046357075605393&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006933&hvtargid=pla-395333668264&psc=1&th=1&psc=1
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People can see with their own eyes a sleeping Shaun against a backdrop of movement and noise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepDNi7WSYs
Does anyone believe the McCanns drugged/sedated SM prior to his flight home?
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
When did Kate McCann suggest she wanted people to think the children had been sedated?
You are twisting this.
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
Did she want people to think they were? What's the evidence for this? I thought she put it forward as a hypothesis to explain why the twins did not wake in the aftermath of MM's disappearance ie all the noise in the apartment/bedroom?
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
So if they sedated SM on the return flight home why not AM too? She was clearly awake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepDNi7WSYs
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
I've never seen it as quite common... I've taken my children from babies on lots of long haul 12 hr flights... Never even thought of sedating them
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I've never seen it as quite common... I've taken my children from babies on lots of long haul 12 hr flights... Never even thought of sedating them
Nor me neither.
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
Are you basing your opinion on one article in the Daily Mail written by some idiot yummy mummy or do you have a more reliable source of information for this alleged kid sedation on planes thing? Personally I don’t think kids under 3 should be allowed on planes full stop, my heart sinks every time I get in a plane and see a baby being carried down the aisle towards my seat.
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Are you basing your opinion on one article in the Daily Mail written by some idiot yummy mummy or do you have a more reliable source of information for this alleged kid sedation on planes thing? Personally I don’t think kids under 3 should be allowed on planes full stop, my heart sinks every time I get in a plane and see a baby being carried down the aisle towards my seat.
Some do it for their own convenience, others because of the disaproving stares of people like you.
A quick chat with friends and a scour of the internet (from the BBC to Mumsnet) revealed that drugging children in the hope that they will sleep is pretty common - sometimes even at home, and particularly when travelling.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/is-it-ok-drug-babies-toddlers-children-sleep-flight-antihistamines/
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Some do it for their own convenience, others because of the disaproving stares of people like you.
A quick chat with friends and a scour of the internet (from the BBC to Mumsnet) revealed that drugging children in the hope that they will sleep is pretty common - sometimes even at home, and particularly when travelling.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/is-it-ok-drug-babies-toddlers-children-sleep-flight-antihistamines/
Goodness me. Who'd a thought it? I never did that. There must be a lot of horrible parents around.
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
A very good idea. When you are stuck in a plane for 12 hours close to a crying child you might also agree.
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There's much talk about the possibility MM was drugged/sedated along with the twins by an abductor or the McCanns. I do not believe this to be the case since the science of sleep can provide a more plausible explanation.
I studied the above on a psychology course in the 80's but like most things since then it has been developed further through such things as sleep laboratories.
In a nutshell we go through sleep cycles which feature stages 1 - 4. 3 and 4 are difficult to wake from and this is especially so for small children.
The fact the McCanns are medical doctors would not necessarily mean they had an awareness or knowledge of the science of sleep. It is usually studied on neuroscience, psychology and psychiatry courses.
Matthew Walker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Walker_(scientist)
has written a best selling book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Sleep-Science-Dreams/dp/0141983760/ref=asc_df_0141983760/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310834580283&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4294046357075605393&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006933&hvtargid=pla-395333668264&psc=1&th=1&psc=1
"The fact the McCanns are medical doctors would not necessarily mean they had an awareness or knowledge of the science of sleep. "
As parents they know their childs sleeping patters no need for a science degree on their sleep patterns.
They knew their children were waking up their -daughter told them the night before apparently- they claimed they didn't want to put a light on in case they woke the kids or use a certain door as the noise may wake them so if we are to go by their observational knowledge they kids were light sleepers!
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"The fact the McCanns are medical doctors would not necessarily mean they had an awareness or knowledge of the science of sleep. "
As parents they know their childs sleeping patters no need for a science degree on their sleep patterns.
They knew their children were waking up their -daughter told them the night before apparently- they claimed they didn't want to put a light on in case they woke the kids or use a certain door as the noise may wake them so if we are to go by their observational knowledge they kids were light sleepers!
Madeleine was known to wake in the early hours of the morning ... hence the star chart on the fridge at home.
There is nothing else as far as I know to indicate that the twins were 'light sleepers' ... in fact the contrary. We have all seen Madeleine's brother sleeping soundly when carried off a plane in a noisy airport.
Do you have anything other than your opinion to back up the assertion you have made?
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Madeleine was known to wake in the early hours of the morning ... hence the star chart on the fridge at home.
There is nothing else as far as I know to indicate that the twins were 'light sleepers' ... in fact the contrary. We have all seen Madeleine's brother sleeping soundly when carried off a plane in a noisy airport.
Do you have anything other than your opinion to back up the assertion you have made?
We were told by Gerry that they began to use the patio doors in order not to wake the children. That certainly suggests that they were light sleepers. We were also told by Kate that she didn’t want to turn the light on on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance because she, again, didn’t want to wake the children. That also suggests that they were light sleepers.
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We were told by Gerry that they began to use the patio doors in order not to wake the children. That certainly suggests that they were light sleepers. We were also told by Kate that she didn’t want to turn the light on on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance because she, again, didn’t want to wake the children. That also suggests that they were light sleepers.
No it doesn’t, it just suggests that they were normal parents who didn’t want to risk the possibility of waking their children in the night. It’s what most parents do, whether their kids are light sleepers or not.
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No it doesn’t, it just suggests that they were normal parents who didn’t want to risk the possibility of waking their children in the night. It’s what most parents do, whether their kids are light sleepers or not.
The rest of the tapas group must have been abnormal then because I believe they used their front doors.
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The rest of the tapas group must have been abnormal then because I believe they used their front doors.
Depends on the layout of the apartment and where the children were sleeping. The layout of 5B was definitely different from 5A because it only had one bedroom and the presumption is that the layout of 5D was different again to accommodate more people.
Because it was the end apartment the front door of 5A was outside the block and the doors of 5B and 5D inside the block.
So horses for courses with different families making choices which suited them.
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Depends on the layout of the apartment and where the children were sleeping. The layout of 5B was definitely different from 5A because it only had one bedroom and the presumption is that the layout of 5D was different again to accommodate more people.
Because it was the end apartment the front door of 5A was outside the block and the doors of 5B and 5D inside the block.
So horses for courses with different families making choices which suited them.
But definitely not bothered about waking the children when entering the apartment like ‘normal ‘ parents.
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"The fact the McCanns are medical doctors would not necessarily mean they had an awareness or knowledge of the science of sleep. "
As parents they know their childs sleeping patters no need for a science degree on their sleep patterns.
They knew their children were waking up their -daughter told them the night before apparently- they claimed they didn't want to put a light on in case they woke the kids or use a certain door as the noise may wake them so if we are to go by their observational knowledge they kids were light sleepers!
It's nothing to do with parents understanding their children's sleeping patterns.
KM and others were surprised the twins slept through all the commotion in 5A and being moved to the Payne's apartment. Many then suggested the twins and possibly MM had been sedated (by an abductor).
As I understand it Amaral's theory is that the McCanns dosed up the twins and MM on Calpol to prevent them from waking.
I've explained how stages 3 and 4 of sleep cycles we all go through are difficult to wake from. This can be evidenced by observing the twins leaving their return flight to UK.
I would not expect KM or GM with their backgrounds in medicine to have any understanding of this. Anesthetics is a completely different field to the science of sleep.
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But definitely not bothered about waking the children when entering the apartment like ‘normal ‘ parents.
Really? Is that a fact?
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No it doesn’t, it just suggests that they were normal parents who didn’t want to risk the possibility of waking their children in the night. It’s what most parents do, whether their kids are light sleepers or not.
I think the McCanns were far from 'normal' with regards to their "childcare arrangements". I am as certain as I can be of anything that most parents do not leave 3 children under the age of 4 in an unlocked holiday apartment while they dine out at a restaurant where they can't possibly observe the unlocked entrance let alone know what is kicking off inside.
Why did the McCanns decide to check via the unlocked patio door and not the locked front door like the Oldfields and JT/ROB?
Why, on arrival, did the McCanns move the 2 cots from the bedroom overlooking the pool and and place them in the front bedroom? Would it not have been better to leave the cots in the bedroom overlooking the pool and then to carry out the checks via the locked front door?
Had the apartment been locked would the outcome have been different?
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I think the McCanns were far from 'normal' with regards to their "childcare arrangements". I am as certain as I can be of anything that most parents do not leave 3 children under the age of 4 in an unlocked holiday apartment while they dine out at a restaurant where they can't possibly observe the unlocked entrance let alone know what is kicking off inside.
Why did the McCanns decide to check via the unlocked patio door and not the locked front door like the Oldfields and JT/ROB?
Why, on arrival, did the McCanns move the 2 cots from the bedroom overlooking the pool and and place them in the front bedroom? Would it not have been better to leave the cots in the bedroom overlooking the pool and then to carry out the checks via the locked front door?
Had the apartment been locked would the outcome have been different?
Are you suggesting that child abduction was a very real and likely possibility then?
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Really? Is that a fact?
It would appear so.
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It would appear so.
So not a fact then.
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So not a fact then.
Okay....you can have my attention....just for a little while though.
Did the rest of the tapas group who checked use their front doors?
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Okay....you can have my attention....just for a little while though.
Did the rest of the tapas group who checked use their front doors?
No idea, you tell me.
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No idea, you tell me.
Don’t tell me you are going to play the ‘do you have a cite game’. I think it’s common knowledge that the McCanns, being the only ‘normal’ parents, left their children vulnerable in an unsecured apartment so they didn’t wake them by going through the locked door.
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Don’t tell me you are going to play the ‘do you have a cite game’. I think it’s common knowledge that the McCanns, being the only ‘normal’ parents, left their children vulnerable in an unsecured apartment so they didn’t wake them by going through the locked door.
I didn’t ask for a cite, I asked you to tell me. You have declined to do so.
Why do you think the children were more vulnerable than the others? Why should leaving the door unlocked make them any more vulnerable? Please explain.
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It's nothing to do with parents understanding their children's sleeping patterns.
KM and others were surprised the twins slept through all the commotion in 5A and being moved to the Payne's apartment. Many then suggested the twins and possibly MM had been sedated (by an abductor).
As I understand it Amaral's theory is that the McCanns dosed up the twins and MM on Calpol to prevent them from waking.
I've explained how stages 3 and 4 of sleep cycles we all go through are difficult to wake from. This can be evidenced by observing the twins leaving their return flight to UK.
I would not expect KM or GM with their backgrounds in medicine to have any understanding of this. Anesthetics is a completely different field to the science of sleep.
I disagree Holly,
The parents are more aware of their childs sleep patterns than a scientific research taken under clinical conditions.
No one can really read minds when people are sleeping regardless of their scientific background.
There are various reasons for falling into a deep sleep at certain times of the night. We can't take one child sleeping being carried off a flight as evidence of the child being a deep sleeper. We are not privvy to the activity or lack of sleep pre flight home.
So why were they surprised ? they were surprised because they knew their children were light sleepers. offering a scientific explanation just isn't relevent here.
Anesthetics is very relevent here because the mother suspected her children were drugged- she would have a better idea than most lay person- so why not demand the children be taken to hospital in case their life was in danger?
You see here is where I have a problem. they claim to be loving parents and yet they leave their babies alone every night, one is claimed to have been abducted via a window, the mother runs out of the apartment to alert the others, doesn't contact police immediatly but does a quick search?????,Mother suspects the other two children have been drugged and does nothing. When told cadaver dogs alerted to a scent rather than bcome upset that it may be their daughters via the abductor/s they dissmiss out of hand and laugh it off?
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I didn’t ask for a cite, I asked you to tell me. You have declined to do so.
Why do you think the children were more vulnerable than the others? Why should leaving the door unlocked make them any more vulnerable? Please explain.
After you tell me if you think that the rest of tapas were ‘abnormal’ parents for locking their front doors ?
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After you tell me if you think that the rest of tapas were ‘abnormal’ parents for locking their front doors ?
Of course I don’t think they were abnornal for locking their front doors. Now your turn.
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Of course I don’t think they were abnornal for locking their front doors. Now your turn.
But isn’t that what ‘normal’ parents do....your words ?
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But isn’t that what ‘normal’ parents do....your words ?
Cite?
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It is normal for parents minimize the chances of waking their kids up when they are asleep. Nowhere have I suggested that it is normal to leave children alone in an unlocked apartment, but some people seem intent on twisting my words. Why?
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After you tell me if you think that the rest of tapas were ‘abnormal’ parents for locking their front doors ?
Now it’s your turn to answer my question, as you promised.
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Cite?
‘No it doesn’t, it just suggests that they were normal parents who didn’t want to risk the possibility of waking their children in the night.’
So those who did lock their doors and risked waking their children are what....abnormal....or simply more risk averse ?
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It is normal for parents minimize the chances of waking their kids up when they are asleep. Nowhere have I suggested that it is normal to leave children alone in an unlocked apartment, but some people seem intent on twisting my words. Why?
You do it all the time as you are only here for the sniping (craic) as you do on a regular basis adding nothing to the discussion of any value.
John I think it is time to get the block and ignore function working... taking threads apart like this is annoying.
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You do it all the time as you are only here for the sniping (craic) as you do on a regular basis adding nothing to the discussion of any value.
John I think it is time to get the block and ignore function working... taking threads apart like this is annoying.
I wonder why John disabled the ignore function ?
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I wonder why John disabled the ignore function ?
WEll it seems you are not going to answer my question as you promised, well there's a surprise.
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You do it all the time as you are only here for the sniping (craic) as you do on a regular basis adding nothing to the discussion of any value.
John I think it is time to get the block and ignore function working... taking threads apart like this is annoying.
In your opinion. Guess what? You don't need a computer function to enable you to ignore me. You can just either skip over my posts or read and choose not to reply. As far as I know you have never had me on ignore before so clearly enjoy reading and replying to my posts.
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‘No it doesn’t, it just suggests that they were normal parents who didn’t want to risk the possibility of waking their children in the night.’
So those who did lock their doors and risked waking their children are what....abnormal....or simply more risk averse ?
It is normal for parents minimize the chances of waking their kids up when they are asleep. Nowhere have I suggested that it is normal to leave children alone in an unlocked apartment, but some people seem intent on twisting my words. Why?
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https://www.simplesleep.co.uk/is-your-baby-a-light-sleeper/
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I didn’t ask for a cite, I asked you to tell me. You have declined to do so.
Why do you think the children were more vulnerable than the others? Why should leaving the door unlocked make them any more vulnerable? Please explain.
If I'm allowed to step in, I think the McCann children were more vulnerable because the other people who knew that the door was unlocked worried about the kids and hence started to interfere.
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If I'm allowed to step in, I think the McCann children were more vulnerable because the other people who knew that the door was unlocked worried about the kids and hence started to interfere.
Okay let us reel this back.
Why did Kate leave the door unlocked?
because it was to allow Maddie to go and get them if she and other children woke up crying
Why would that be?
because as the mother, she knew the children had been awake and crying previously.
Is this correct yes or no... or emphatic No!
Having monitored the childrens sleep patterns since birth- making an informed evaluation of those occurances, and analysing the outcomes is a direct established scientific remit.
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Okay let us reel this back.
Why did Kate leave the door unlocked?
because it was to allow Maddie to go and get them if she and other children woke up crying
Why would that be?
because as the mother, she knew the children had been awake and crying previously.
Is this correct yes or no... or emphatic No!
Having monitored the childrens sleep patterns since birth- making an informed evaluation of those occurances, and analysing the outcomes is a direct established scientific remit.
No that is an emphatic no.
It wasn't the first night they left the patio door unlocked AFAIK.
So the difference in the Thursday night was that they told Madeleine where they were. Where she could come and find them if she is worried during the night.
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No that is an emphatic no.
It wasn't the first night they left the patio door unlocked AFAIK.
So the difference in the Thursday night was that they told Madeleine where they were. Where she could come and find them if she is worried during the night.
aw Rob... tsk!
The point is "she could come and find them if she is worried during the night." implying expecting light sleepers to wake up!
I rest my case. 8)--))
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aw Rob... tsk!
The point is "she could come and find them if she is worried during the night." implying expecting light sleepers to wake up!
I rest my case. 8)--))
So I was right, it was a "No that is an emphatic no".
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So I was right, it was a "No that is an emphatic no".
Sorry Rob, it can't be as you saiod AFAYK. I am of the impresssion from what I read Kate told people this on the night MBM disappeared. we both maybe right or wrong... 8(>((
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No that is an emphatic no.
It wasn't the first night they left the patio door unlocked AFAIK.
So the difference in the Thursday night was that they told Madeleine where they were. Where she could come and find them if she is worried during the night.
Kinell, that's worse!
Might as well have said 'stap greetin wee ya, an watch the twuns fer mammy an daddy'.
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Sorry Rob, it can't be as you saiod AFAYK. I am of the impresssion from what I read Kate told people this on the night MBM disappeared. we both maybe right or wrong... 8(>((
Just checking something.
When I type Made which is only one letter longer than MBM, then immediately my predictive text gives me the option of using her name.
And all of this on my useless little phone.
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Just checking something.
When I type Made which is only one letter longer than MBM, then immediately my predictive text gives me the option of using her name.
And all of this on my useless little phone.
Sure sign that you've been at this a long time, sister.
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Sure sign that you've been at this a long time, sister.
Possibly.
Perhaps it's long experience of being with and interacting.with children that makes me sensitive to any.child being reduced to being named.by their initials.
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Possibly.
Perhaps it's long experience of being with and interacting.with children that makes me sensitive to any.child being reduced to being named.by their initials.
Why have you done it then?
And yes, I will be happy to look up your posts where you have done.
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Kinell, that's worse!
Might as well have said 'stap greetin wee ya, an watch the twuns fer mammy an daddy'.
@)(++(* as they were doctors they would have said it in a more posh accent lol. glaswegian brawl and scousey.
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Why have you done it then?
And yes, I will be happy to look up your posts where you have done.
Supporters boring, off topic, goading posts are best ignored. They seek attention and try to engage in verbal warfare- sad and pathetic but true.
ps Kate called her daughter 'little m'
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Sorry Rob, it can't be as you saiod AFAYK. I am of the impresssion from what I read Kate told people this on the night MBM disappeared. we both maybe right or wrong... 8(>((
I find our little aside discussion goes right back to page 2 so it is very much on topic.
It began with a Quote from: Faithlilly on June 30, 2019, 10:31:10 AM
"Don’t tell me you are going to play the ‘do you have a cite game’. I think it’s common knowledge that the McCanns, being the only ‘normal’ parents, left their children vulnerable in an unsecured apartment so they didn’t wake them by going through the locked door."
This was followed by VS:
Quote from: Vertigo Swirl on June 30, 2019, 11:15:12 AM
I didn’t ask for a cite, I asked you to tell me. You have declined to do so.
Why do you think the children were more vulnerable than the others? Why should leaving the door unlocked make them any more vulnerable? Please explain.
Then I stepped in:
Quote from: Robittybob1 on June 30, 2019, 12:43:32 PM
If I'm allowed to step in, I think the McCann children were more vulnerable because the other people who knew that the door was unlocked worried about the kids and hence started to interfere.
Then you replied to me:
Quote from: Miss Taken Identity on June 30, 2019, 01:05:46 PM
Okay let us reel this back.
Why did Kate leave the door unlocked?
because it was to allow Maddie to go and get them if she and other children woke up crying
Why would that be?
because as the mother, she knew the children had been awake and crying previously.
Is this correct yes or no... or emphatic No!
Having monitored the childrens sleep patterns since birth- making an informed evaluation of those occurances, and analysing the outcomes is a direct established scientific remit."
Because the line Is this correct yes or no... or emphatic No!sounded very much like a question to Gerry, I replied like it was Gerry speaking:
Quote from: Robittybob1 on June 30, 2019, 01:19:45 PM
No that is an emphatic no.
It wasn't the first night they left the patio door unlocked AFAIK.
So the difference in the Thursday night was that they told Madeleine where they were. Where she could come and find them if she is worried during the night.
I coloured that red as it is now the focus of your attention. When did Kate and Gerry first open the patio door? When did they discuss telling their friends that Madeleine was allowed to come to the Tapas if she was awake, when would Kate have told Madeleine where they were?
Quote from: Miss Taken Identity on June 30, 2019, 01:30:12 PM
"aw Rob... tsk!
The point is "she could come and find them if she is worried during the night." implying expecting light sleepers to wake up!
I rest my case. 8)--))"
OK you rested your case.
So my rebuttal was:
"Quote from: Robittybob1 on June 30, 2019, 01:39:45 PM
So I was right, it was a "No that is an emphatic no".
Not quite finished you come back with:
"Sorry Rob, it can't be as you said AFAYK. I am of the impression from what I read Kate told people this on the night MBM disappeared. we both maybe right or wrong... 8(>((
[/quote]
In my understanding:
The patio door had been unlocked for several nights IMO.
Kate discussed let Madeleine know where to come that day.
So I believe the friends of the McCanns were not comfortable with Kate's decision to let Madeleine come out of the house to look for her parents. I believe that is why in my theory they decided to interfere.
Was there more surveillance of the McCann apartment than we are officially told about? That has been the objective of my research for the last 3 years. What happened What did they do? How did Madeleine react to what they were doing?
I know Matt did a check at 9:30. How did Madeleine react to that? Did she recognise Matt as a "friend"? Was the fact of him going into other rooms disturbing to her? Where was she at the time?
He left by the Patio door so maybe she decided the best option was to go out the front door and tell her Mum a strange man was back in the apartment.
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The greater the checking the less likely abduction.
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The greater the checking the less likely abduction.
The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO.
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The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO.
Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO
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Do you think that the McCann were heartless and reckless to leave their daughter alone the night after she told them that she had been crying because she woken up and they were not there ?
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Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO
Explain how to the forum.
If it happened before she woke and wandered, that is possible I suppose. Go to bed with a sore head, wake up dizzy and wander into the path of a car.
If it happened after she woke (Amaral type theory) hurt herself , wandered into trouble.
If the accident happened after the alarm, she could have been quite some distance if for some reason she thought that she had to go to wrong restaurant.
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Explain how to the forum.
If it happened before she woke and wandered, that is possible I suppose. Go to bed with a sore head, wake up dizzy and wander into the path of a car.
If it happened after she woke (Amaral type theory) hurt herself , wandered into trouble.
If the accident happened after the alarm, she could have been quite some distance if for some reason she thought that she had to go to wrong restaurant.
What's to explain ? She could have had an accident at any time.
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What's to explain ? She could have had an accident at any time.
No - you said "depends" - explain the dependence please?
Quote "Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO" What would depend on the timing?
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No - you said "depends" - explain the dependence please?
Quote "Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO" What would depend on the timing?
The time interval would influence the range of actions that could take place -IMO
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I disagree Holly,
The parents are more aware of their childs sleep patterns than a scientific research taken under clinical conditions.
No one can really read minds when people are sleeping regardless of their scientific background.
There are various reasons for falling into a deep sleep at certain times of the night. We can't take one child sleeping being carried off a flight as evidence of the child being a deep sleeper. We are not privvy to the activity or lack of sleep pre flight home.
So why were they surprised ? they were surprised because they knew their children were light sleepers. offering a scientific explanation just isn't relevent here.
Anesthetics is very relevent here because the mother suspected her children were drugged- she would have a better idea than most lay person- so why not demand the children be taken to hospital in case their life was in danger?
You see here is where I have a problem. they claim to be loving parents and yet they leave their babies alone every night, one is claimed to have been abducted via a window, the mother runs out of the apartment to alert the others, doesn't contact police immediatly but does a quick search?????,Mother suspects the other two children have been drugged and does nothing. When told cadaver dogs alerted to a scent rather than bcome upset that it may be their daughters via the abductor/s they dissmiss out of hand and laugh it off?
You are always telling me that I make things up but reading your post, you really are talking nonsense.
They were loving parents it is obvious they were, nannies saying the children ran out eagerly to greet them when they arrived chatting about what they had done that day. Nannies saying the children were happy. If the McCann's weren't loving parents then it would definitely show in how the children behaved IMO
How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers' Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning. I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.
Kate thought her children had been drugged because she found a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top the morning of the 3rd of May. Being distraught she remembered it and wondered if the twins had been drugged. Fiona however said they were fine.
Who said Madeleine had been abducted through the window?
Everyone would search for the child before calling the Police, as soon as she wasn't found the Police were called.
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The time interval would influence the range of actions that could take place -IMO
I originally said "The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO."
Implying the accident happened after the wandering commenced. So how do you define the "time interval"? What two point events in time are you measuring exactly?
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Do you think that the McCann were heartless and reckless to leave their daughter alone the night after she told them that she had been crying because she woken up and they were not there ?
According to McCanns when they pressed MM for more info she didn't volunteer any and seemed undisturbed. They seemed to write it off as a non-event.
In answer to your question I find the whole "childcare arrangement" scheme mind boggling.
I do find KM's comment on P94 a little odd:
"It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away. Force of habit, I suppose: taking care to avoid waking the children at all costs".
When she says 'force of habit' does she mean during the holiday or at all times? To say 'avoid waking the children at all costs' seems a bit extreme imo. Would it really be such a big deal if 1 or more of the children woke during her checks? Is this the reason they kept the patio doors unlocked so as to avoid any noise from opening and closing the front door?
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I originally said "The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO."
Implying the accident happened after the wandering commenced. So how do you define the "time interval"? What two point events in time are you measuring exactly?
I admit I missed that subtlety . I was going on the point that an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening.
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According to McCanns when they pressed MM for more info she didn't volunteer any and seemed undisturbed. They seemed to write it off as a non-event.
In answer to your question I find the whole "childcare arrangement" scheme mind boggling.
I do find KM's comment on P94 a little odd:
"It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away. Force of habit, I suppose: taking care to avoid waking the children at all costs".
When she says 'force of habit' does she mean during the holiday or at all times? To say 'avoid waking the children at all costs' seems a bit extreme imo. Would it really be such a big deal if 1 or more of the children woke during her checks? Is this the reason they kept the patio doors unlocked so as to avoid any noise from opening and closing the front door?
To me, “at all costs” could indicate very hands off checking, e.g. listening near the apartment.
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I admit I missed that subtlety . I was going on the point that an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening.
OK "an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening" but was Madeleine capable of waking and wandering after that "accident"? If she isn't capable of walking she can't do any wandering.
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To me, “at all costs” could indicate very hands off checking, e.g. listening near the apartment.
Or, if already in the apartment, not going into the kid's room unless there was some indication that it was necessary.
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In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.
As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.
Maybe that was to create more scenarios to suggest persons unknown could have drugged children in case some evidence turned up to suggest the twins were indeed sedated by POMs.
Consider though in all seriousness the route of administration IV, IM or oral (I'm discounting inhalational as pure fantasy)?. The twins weren't cannulated, IM would take too long to work.... Oral? By a stranger to three (sleeping) toddlers and all in a few minutes before the next check.... don't be silly!!
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Maybe that was to create more scenarios to suggest persons unknown could have drugged children in case some evidence turned up to suggest the twins were indeed sedated by POMs.
Consider though in all seriousness the route of administration IV, IM or oral (I'm discounting inhalational as pure fantasy)?. The twins weren't cannulated, IM would take too long to work.... Oral? By a stranger to three (sleeping) toddlers and all in a few minutes before the next check.... don't be silly!!
There was also a suggestion that the parents sedated them to stop them waking up crying. Some one mentioned calpol, which isn't a sedative, however, parents can sedate their children with adult prescribed drugs.
I am not suggesting or implying the McCanns drugged their children- it was just something which provoked a thought by Kate mentioning it.
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How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers' Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning. I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.
Yes but I wasn't there so I WAS going by the mothers and daughters evidence! mum didn't want to put the light onnin case she woke the children? DShe also claimed Her daugher asked where they wre when Sean woke up crying? please,
Kate thought her children had been drugged because she found a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top the morning of the 3rd of May.
No, kate thought they were drugged that night. read her book !
Who said Madeleine had been abducted through the window?
The family said it!
Everyone would search for the child before calling the Police, as soon as she wasn't found the Police were called.
who is 'everyone'? If you scream your daughter has been abducted you call the police FIRST or do you come from a different school of thought?
If you insist on picking my post apart; arm yourself with a reasonable argument and not a pile of tosh.
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You are always telling me that I make things up but reading your post, you really are talking nonsense.
How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers' Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning. I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.
Madeleine had a star chart at home - she was given a star when she managed to stay in bed all night!
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Madeleine had a star chart at home - she was given a star when she managed to stay in bed all night!
Everything you know about Madeleine you know from her parents, two people who you also appear to believe are liars and untrustworthy. Ironic innit.
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Everything you know about Madeleine you know from her parents, two people who you also appear to believe are liars and untrustworthy. Ironic innit.
She had a star chart - she was rewarded when she managed to stay in bed all night.... Hardly what you'd expect for a good sleeper!
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Everything you know about Madeleine you know from her parents, two people who you also appear to believe are liars and untrustworthy. Ironic innit.
@)(++(* So we all agree the children were light sleepers then- Good!
The parents said they went to Portugual on holiday- that is true
they said they ate food- this is true
they said they played tennis- this is true
I'm sorry I didn't get any irony. I think it woul be fair to say the parents version of accounts of that holiday are up for a challenge.
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Madeleine had a star chart at home - she was given a star when she managed to stay in bed all night!
Let’s have the full cite for that shall we?
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Let’s have the full cite for that shall we?
It was shown on the Oprah interview in May 2009... "Madeleine - Stars for Staying In Her [?Own] Bed"
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/O/wallChart.jpg)
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It was shown on the Oprah interview in May 2009... "Madeleine - Stars for Staying In Her [?Own] Bed"
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/O/wallChart.jpg)
That is a lot of stars there.
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That is a lot of stars there.
Depends on the reference period.... You know why she has this chart. We all do.
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Depends on the reference period.... You know why she has this chart. We all do.
Well why keep it a secret? Tell me why she has this chart please?
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Well why keep it a secret?
Was it a secret?
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Was it a secret?
Tell me why she has this chart please?
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Tell me why she has this chart please?
It's positive parenting. Rewarding what you are trying to achieve. You know this.
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It's positive parenting. Rewarding what you are trying to achieve. You know this.
She had achieved it to some extent by the number of stars. Maybe the new surroundings reversed the positive parenting progress.
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She had achieved it to some extent by the number of stars. Maybe the new surroundings reversed the positive parenting progress.
We don't know that - we do know she sometimes didn't stay in her own bed, though.
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We don't know that - we do know she sometimes didn't stay in her own bed, though.
we are talking about a person we barely know. Will she sleep as well in a strange place? A place with people living next door. I'd hate to guess. So I'm out.
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We don't know that - we do know she sometimes didn't stay in her own bed, though.
And from this we can deduce what?
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What period of time does this Chart apply to?
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There was also a suggestion that the parents sedated them to stop them waking up crying. Some one mentioned calpol, which isn't a sedative, however, parents can sedate their children with adult prescribed drugs.
I am not suggesting or implying the McCanns drugged their children- it was just something which provoked a thought by Kate mentioning it.
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How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers' Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning. I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.
Yes but I wasn't there so I WAS going by the mothers and daughters evidence! mum didn't want to put the light onnin case she woke the children? DShe also claimed Her daugher asked where they wre when Sean woke up crying? please,
Kate thought her children had been drugged because she found a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top the morning of the 3rd of May.
No, kate thought they were drugged that night. read her book !
Who said Madeleine had been abducted through the window?
The family said it!
Everyone would search for the child before calling the Police, as soon as she wasn't found the Police were called.
who is 'everyone'? If you scream your daughter has been abducted you call the police FIRST or do you come from a different school of thought?
If you insist on picking my post apart; arm yourself with a reasonable argument and not a pile of tosh.
Quote from Kate's statement 6th May 2007 -
When asked about the schedule of her children she says that in England Madeleine slept in a room by herself and the twins slept in another room. At home the twins go to bed between 7 and 7.30 PM, Madeleine half an hour later. During the holidays, the three children went to bed at 7:30PM. She says that during the holidays it is relatively easy to put the three children to sleep when they had not slept during the day and were tired after the day's activities. When on holiday the twins and Madeleine went to sleep at the same time. They never went out to eat unless the three were actually asleep. Normally when they left the apartment the three children had been asleep close to 1 hour. With the exception of what has been described above, during the holidays, she does not remember if any of the children was awake during the night. However, in England Madeleine sometimes woke up during the night, around 2 ' 2:30 AM and went to her parents. During holidays it was normal for the children to be awake by 7:30/8:00, in England, at home, they would normally wake between 7 and 7:30 AM.
Kate says 'sometimes Madeleine sometimes woke up during the night, around 2-2.30am and went to her parents'.
Without their usual naps during the day, Kate says it was easy to get the children off to sleep.
Maybe the light would wake the children, that doesn't mean Madeleine wouldn't have slept until the early hours if the light hadn't been turned on. Sean woke her crying, Madeleine didn't wake up by herself it was her brother who woke her up.
The family may have said that Madeleine was abducted through the window, but it wasn't the McCann's.
Have the read what it says in the 'what to do when a child disappears' they say to search first before calling the Police.
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That is a lot of stars there.
I believe Kate mentioned there should have been more stars, as the stars were actually too big for the list of numbers (7 as opposed to 10).
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Everything you know about Madeleine you know from her parents, two people who you also appear to believe are liars and untrustworthy. Ironic innit.
Very true! So was what they said logical and consistent? They both said that Madeleine only woke up after her parents were in bed. Even so, Gerry assumed she had got up at 9:05 when he found her bedroom door had moved. At 10:00 Kate thought the same.
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Very true! So was what they said logical and consistent? They both said that Madeleine only woke up after her parents were in bed. Even so, Gerry assumed she had got up at 9:05 when he found her bedroom door had moved. At 10:00 Kate thought the same.
As an afterthought, in Gerry's case he thought Madeleine had got up to use the toilet, in which case needing the toilet would have woken her up. In Kate's case it was a last thought, maybe one of the twins had woken her up again, she was used to sleeping alone in her own bedroom. IMO
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As an afterthought, in Gerry's case he thought Madeleine had got up to use the toilet, in which case needing the toilet would have woken her up. In Kate's case it was a last thought, maybe one of the twins had woken her up again, she was used to sleeping alone in her own bedroom. IMO
In both cases they assumed that she had woken up before they would have expected her to. Therefore they weren't confident that she would sleep until they returned.
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This is interesting
‘With the exception of what has been described above, during the holidays, she does not remember if any of the children was awake during the night.’
Didn’t Gerry say that Madeleine awoke and came through to their room on the Tuesday (?) night ? Was that a piece of retrofitting to explain Mrs Fenn’s statement? When did we learn of Madeleine coming to her parent's room ? Was it the first anniversary interviews?
It was in Gerry’s arguido interview.
‘--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.’
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Tuesday is a thorn in their side.
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Tuesday is a thorn in their side.
Yes, so many things were different that day to previous ones, though interestingly, its mainly the others in the group that changed their routine - almost as if distancing themselves from the McCanns.
IMO
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I believe Kate mentioned there should have been more stars, as the stars were actually too big for the list of numbers (7 as opposed to 10).
The point is staying in bed all night was an issue. Madeleine was known to wake up and go to her parents (room), IMO. She must have woken up the night she cried for over an hour.
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The point is staying in bed all night was an issue. Madeleine was known to wake up and go to her parents (room), IMO. She must have woken up the night she cried for over an hour.
Totally speculative, but, generally, kids will kick off if they see mummy and daddy moonwalking out the door, so they must've tried to get them off to sleep prior to exiting through an indeterminate door.
The would have had to adopt the old ninja parent routine: shoes off, creep towards the door incrementally, Special Forces training kicking in, hand signals only at this stage - wait out - slowly slide open the pre-marged up patio door, when outside leap over wall in to undergrowth, ninja roll out of it, spring up, put shoes on, skip down the road.