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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2019, 05:12:59 PM

Title: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
A witness who was in very close proximity to apartment 5A shortly before MM disappeared, in fact in the apartment directly above 5A, claims the first she was aware that a child had gone missing from the apartment below was when she arrived back in UK Sun morning and read about it in The Sunday Times.  However Saturday's edition covered the full story: front page and pages 2 and 3.



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Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 18, 2019, 05:37:40 PM
A witness who was in very close proximity to apartment 5A shortly before MM disappeared, in fact in the apartment directly above 5A, claims the first she was aware that a child had gone missing from the apartment below was when she arrived back in UK Sun morning and read about it in The Sunday Times.  However Saturday's edition covered the full story: front page and pages 2 and 3.
How could she have read about it in the Saturday edition if she wasn’t back in the UK until Sunday?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: jassi on December 18, 2019, 05:46:08 PM
Perhaps she didn't cancel the papers while she was away.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 18, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Anyone know what is the point of this thread?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: jassi on December 18, 2019, 05:52:57 PM
No idea. Perhaps it will become more obvious in time - they usually do.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 18, 2019, 06:11:59 PM
No idea. Perhaps it will become more obvious in time - they usually do.
They really only get interesting when they turn into a slagfest.  I mean who cares, really?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 18, 2019, 06:57:38 PM
A witness who was in very close proximity to apartment 5A shortly before MM disappeared, in fact in the apartment directly above 5A, claims the first she was aware that a child had gone missing from the apartment below was when she arrived back in UK Sun morning and read about it in The Sunday Times.  However Saturday's edition covered the full story: front page and pages 2 and 3.

I think the person you're referring to came back to the UK on the Saturday. Why shouldn't they wait until Sunday before reading a newspaper?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 18, 2019, 08:17:07 PM
A witness who was in very close proximity to apartment 5A shortly before MM disappeared, in fact in the apartment directly above 5A, claims the first she was aware that a child had gone missing from the apartment below was when she arrived back in UK Sun morning and read about it in The Sunday Times.  However Saturday's edition covered the full story: front page and pages 2 and 3.

Was it CT by any chance
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 18, 2019, 08:49:13 PM
Was it CT by any chance
The prime suspect - lol.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 18, 2019, 08:51:38 PM
The prime suspect - lol.

No doubt this final piece of evidence is already in the hands of those that matter... John and Myster
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 12:17:46 PM
Amy Tierney, Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams were the three nannies in charge of the creche on the evening of 3rd May. An unknown woman tourist appeared and asked them if they had heard about the disappearance of a child named Maddy or Maggie. The time was either 22:05 (JW) or 22:15 (CP).



According to Lyndsay Johnson, Amy Tierney informed her of Madeleine's disappearance at about 22:20.

According to Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams Lyndsay Johnson informed Amy that Madeleine had disappeared.

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 12:24:12 PM
Amy Tierney, Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams were the three nannies in charge of the creche on the evening of 3rd May. An unknown woman tourist appeared and asked them if they had heard about the disappearance of a child named Maddy or Maggie. The time was either 22:05 (JW) or 22:15 (CP).



According to Lyndsay Johnson, Amy Tierney informed her of Madeleine's disappearance at about 22:20.

According to Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams Lyndsay Johnson informed Amy that Madeleine had disappeared.

So more discrepancies... They must be all in on it
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 02:13:59 PM
Amy Tierney, Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams were the three nannies in charge of the creche on the evening of 3rd May. An unknown woman tourist appeared and asked them if they had heard about the disappearance of a child named Maddy or Maggie. The time was either 22:05 (JW) or 22:15 (CP).



According to Lyndsay Johnson, Amy Tierney informed her of Madeleine's disappearance at about 22:20.

According to Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williams Lyndsay Johnson informed Amy that Madeleine had disappeared.

According to Gerry McCann he was seated at the Tapas restaurant at 22:13 when his wife raised the alarm that his daughter had disappeared.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

So who was the unknown woman and how was she able to tell the nannies that a child was missing either before the child's father knew (22:05)  or just two minutes after he was told? (22:15)

Who was the Mark Warner employee who called into the Duque de Holanda bar at 22:15 to tell them a child was missing?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm

If the group are correct about the time of the alarm being raised, how were these two people able to spread the news so quickly?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 02:34:57 PM
According to Gerry McCann he was seated at the Tapas restaurant at 22:13 when his wife raised the alarm that his daughter had disappeared.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

So who was the unknown woman and how was she able to tell the nannies that a child was missing either before the child's father knew (22:05)  or just two minutes after he was told? (22:15)

Who was the Mark Warner employee who called into the Duque de Holanda bar at 22:15 to tell them a child was missing?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm

If the group are correct about the time of the alarm being raised, how were these two people able to spread the news so quickly?

The unknown woman called into the DdH bar at around 10 15 not at 10 15 as you claim. You are changing statements to suit your agenda... You should stick to the facts. On this basis nothing you claim can be accepted as true imo
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 03:03:29 PM
The unknown woman called into the DdH bar at around 10 15 not at 10 15 as you claim. You are changing statements to suit your agenda... You should stick to the facts. On this basis nothing you claim can be accepted as true imo

So who was this unknown Mark Warner employee and why was she telling people about a missing child before the 'missing child procedure' had begun?

around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun, dividing the whole site into three distinct areas, namely the north zone, the central zone (including the area of the company) and all the roads surrounding the company and which go as far as the beach. Five of the company's employees were mobilised to coordinate the searches, helped by various people ( other employees, tourists and residents)
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 03:05:19 PM
According to Gerry McCann he was seated at the Tapas restaurant at 22:13 when his wife raised the alarm that his daughter had disappeared.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

So who was the unknown woman and how was she able to tell the nannies that a child was missing either before the child's father knew (22:05)  or just two minutes after he was told? (22:15)

Who was the Mark Warner employee who called into the Duque de Holanda bar at 22:15 to tell them a child was missing?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm

If the group are correct about the time of the alarm being raised, how were these two people able to spread the news so quickly?

gerry never said 10.13.....another point you have changed to suit your agenda
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
gerry never said 10.13.....another point you have changed to suit your agenda
- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

03 + 'about 10 minutes later' (he didn't say about 8 minutes) = ........duh.........uhuhuh........13
 
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 03:20:51 PM
- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

03 + 'about 10 minutes later' (he didn't say about 8 minutes) = ........duh.........uhuhuh........13

gunit posted...According to Gerry McCann he was seated at the Tapas restaurant at 22:13

so Gerry never said 22.13....he inferred it was ABOUT 22.13

so it could easily have been 22.10.

the fact is gunit is presenting facts which are not true. Gerry is not precise with his timimes...he isnt claiming to be precise...neither is the person making the first statement......gunit is being disingenuous



Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 03:50:08 PM
gunit posted...According to Gerry McCann he was seated at the Tapas restaurant at 22:13

so Gerry never said 22.13....he inferred it was ABOUT 22.13

so it could easily have been 22.10.

the fact is gunit is presenting facts which are not true. Gerry is not precise with his timimes...he isnt claiming to be precise...neither is the person making the first statement......gunit is being disingenuous
If he would have meant 'about 7 minutes' he would have said 'about 7 minutes'. He said 'about 10 minutes', which, during a police investigation, means.......drum roll........about 10 minutes. It's safe to assume we are talking about 'about' 13 minutes.
And are we then to assume, using your logic, that all other times are estimated, thus making all testimony / timelines open to conjecture?
Or are they all non-verbatim, twice translated, approximate, maybe, he said she said, umm, errr, welllll, ummm, you know.........perhaps, it could have been, maybe I saw, approximately 15 degrees, dimly lit, locked, unlocked, on top of the bed, but snuggled up, front door, back door, shutters up, shutters down, what shutters?........
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2019, 04:13:57 PM
If he would have meant 'about 7 minutes' he would have said 'about 7 minutes'. He said 'about 10 minutes', which, during a police investigation, means.......drum roll........about 10 minutes. It's safe to assume we are talking about 'about' 13 minutes.
And are we then to assume, using your logic, that all other times are estimated, thus making all testimony / timelines open to conjecture?
Or are they all non-verbatim, twice translated, approximate, maybe, he said she said, umm, errr, welllll, ummm, you know.........perhaps, it could have been, maybe I saw, approximately 15 degrees, dimly lit, locked, unlocked, on top of the bed, but snuggled up, front door, back door, shutters up, shutters down, what shutters?........

- at around 10 p.m., when KATE went to the apartment she verified that MADELEINE had disappeared, and that the window and shutters of the bedroom were open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 04:17:35 PM
If he would have meant 'about 7 minutes' he would have said 'about 7 minutes'. He said 'about 10 minutes', which, during a police investigation, means.......drum roll........about 10 minutes. It's safe to assume we are talking about 'about' 13 minutes.
And are we then to assume, using your logic, that all other times are estimated, thus making all testimony / timelines open to conjecture?
Or are they all non-verbatim, twice translated, approximate, maybe, he said she said, umm, errr, welllll, ummm, you know.........perhaps, it could have been, maybe I saw, approximately 15 degrees, dimly lit, locked, unlocked, on top of the bed, but snuggled up, front door, back door, shutters up, shutters down, what shutters?........

He didn't say 22.13 whichever way you wriggle
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 04:27:05 PM
He didn't say 22.13 whichever way you wriggle
No wriggling required. You're splitting hairs for the sake of ....well, who knows.
Besides, answer the question.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 04:27:58 PM
- at around 10 p.m., when KATE went to the apartment she verified that MADELEINE had disappeared, and that the window and shutters of the bedroom were open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
What's your point me arl china teapot?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: jassi on December 19, 2019, 04:35:28 PM
That 22.03 awfully precise. Someone without a timepiece would say 'a few minutes after 10' 

Precise trumps about  -  IMO
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 04:41:41 PM
No wriggling required. You're splitting hairs for the sake of ....well, who knows.
Besides, answer the question.

No I'm making a factual point... The times are not claimed to be precise... Gunit is misrepresenting the fact
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 04:48:55 PM
gerry never said 10.13.....another point you have changed to suit your agenda

No, he didn't. I had to use my admittedly poor maths skills to arrive at that time. However, no matter how many 'abouts' were used for the times, it's difficult to imagine how the news hurtled round Praia da Luz quite as swiftly as we're told it did.

Did these unnamed women sprint off to the night creche and the bar to share the news without double-checking that a child had indeed gone missing and hadn't been found?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2019, 04:56:12 PM
So who was this unknown Mark Warner employee and why was she telling people about a missing child before the 'missing child procedure' had begun?

around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun, dividing the whole site into three distinct areas, namely the north zone, the central zone (including the area of the company) and all the roads surrounding the company and which go as far as the beach. Five of the company's employees were mobilised to coordinate the searches, helped by various people ( other employees, tourists and residents)
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL LYING or maybe because discrepancies like this are very common when there are numerous witnesses involved.  I know you don’t want to countenance that possibility but that’s your problem.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 05:36:03 PM
No, he didn't. I had to use my admittedly poor maths skills to arrive at that time. However, no matter how many 'abouts' were used for the times, it's difficult to imagine how the news hurtled round Praia da Luz quite as swiftly as we're told it did.

Did these unnamed women sprint off to the night creche and the bar to share the news without double-checking that a child had indeed gone missing and hadn't been found?

Another inaccuracy... The news didn't hurtle around PDL... Just around the Ocean Club...

You seem to be trying to make a very trivial point..
Your posts Re the facts are inccuarate.. Yet you question the inaccuracy of others
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2019, 05:50:24 PM
What's your point me arl china teapot?


The magic word is ... "around".  No-one has a precise time for anything, although Kate was specific with 10.00pm and the Judicial police and the Public Prosecutors determined after studying the evidence, that when the alarm was raised Gerry was sitting in his place at the tapas table.
If he hadn't been we would have known about it.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 06:17:13 PM

The magic word is ... "around".  No-one has a precise time for anything, although Kate was specific with 10.00pm and the Judicial police and the Public Prosecutors determined after studying the evidence, that when the alarm was raised Gerry was sitting in his place at the tapas table.
If he hadn't been we would have known about it.

The authorities were not convinced by the timeline provided by the group, which is why they wanted a reconstitution. In my opinion the only reason they wrote what they did in their reports is because they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 06:24:25 PM
The authorities were not convinced by the timeline provided by the group, which is why they wanted a reconstitution. In my opinion the only reason they wrote what they did in their reports is because they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told.

By authorities you mean the initial investigation which imo has been discredited.  The present investigation has expressed no such concern
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 06:24:38 PM

The magic word is ... "around".  No-one has a precise time for anything, although Kate was specific with 10.00pm and the Judicial police and the Public Prosecutors determined after studying the evidence, that when the alarm was raised Gerry was sitting in his place at the tapas table.
If he hadn't been we would have known about it.
No time for being vague, surely? I know there wasn't a timepiece between them (I mean, why would you, you're on holiday?), but they're all pretty adamant about the spacings of the 'checks'.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 06:26:50 PM
By authorities you mean the initial investigation which imo has been discredited.  The present investigation has expressed no such concern
Discredited by whom, Ironside?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 06:27:15 PM
No time for being vague, surely? I know there wasn't a timepiece between them (I mean, why would you, you're on holiday?), but they're all pretty adamant about the spacings of the 'checks'.

When someone says about or around they are not being precise... It really is as simple as that
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 06:28:45 PM
Discredited by whom, Ironside?
Anyone with any common sense IMO.


As to the tools the PJ were working with, it strikes me as woefully inadequate for an investigation of this size (and complexity), therefore I wonder what the largest case tackled prior to this was.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2019, 06:32:07 PM
The authorities were not convinced by the timeline provided by the group, which is why they wanted a reconstitution. In my opinion the only reason they wrote what they did in their reports is because they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told.
A reconstitution would not have changed a thing imo.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 06:36:55 PM
Anyone with any common sense IMO.


As to the tools the PJ were working with, it strikes me as woefully inadequate for an investigation of this size (and complexity), therefore I wonder what the largest case tackled prior to this was.
Please provide 6 examples of these inadequate tools, not including yourself. (should stick an emoji on the end of that, coz it's jokezz)
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 06:45:27 PM
Please provide 6 examples of these inadequate tools, not including yourself. (should stick an emoji on the end of that, coz it's jokezz)

Why should I.. It's not my statements it's one by SIL... Perhaps we can ask sil to explain


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6599.msg271367#msg271367
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 19, 2019, 06:56:33 PM
Why should I.. It's not my statements it's one by SIL... Perhaps we can ask sil to explain


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6599.msg271367#msg271367

Why would you wish to refer to a comment made in another debate over 4 years ago?

Do some original thinking of your own.   &^^&*
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
The authorities were not convinced by the timeline provided by the group, which is why they wanted a reconstitution. In my opinion the only reason they wrote what they did in their reports is because they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told.

You say " ... they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told."                                     

That sums up the situation ... they had no evidence ... which is why they (the PJ) were unable to raise charges against anyone.
I'm surprised you cannot understand that.

Do you think the Judicial police didn't compare all they were told to enable them to build a picture for investigation purposes ... I think it is known as evidence gathering.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 07:10:04 PM
Why would you wish to refer to a comment made in another debate over 4 years ago?

Do some original thinking of your own.   &^^&*

I referred to it because I knew the general would criticise it thinking it was mine... Over to you to answer the generals criticism..
My thought process was quite original... Perhaps you are a little embarrassed by your comment... PJ bashing by sil... Lol
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Another inaccuracy... The news didn't hurtle around PDL... Just around the Ocean Club...

You seem to be trying to make a very trivial point..
Your posts Re the facts are inccuarate.. Yet you question the inaccuracy of others

Was the Duke of Holland part of the Ocean Club? The answer is no, it was in Praia da Luz. So which Mark Warner employee was so on the ball that she reached there before the missing child procedure began?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 07:15:00 PM
Was the Duke of Holland part of the Ocean Club? The answer is no, it was in Praia da Luz. So which Mark Warner employee was so on the ball that she reached there before the missing child procedure began?

How far from the OC.... Certainly not hurtling round Luz.
I see nothing strange in the action.. I would think many were searching before the missing child procedure began
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 19, 2019, 07:15:34 PM
You say " ... they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told."                                     

That sums up the situation ... they had no evidence ... which is why they (the PJ) were unable to raise charges against anyone.
I'm surprised you cannot understand that.

Do you think the Judicial police didn't compare all they were told to enable them to build a picture for investigation purposes ... I think it is known as evidence gathering.

Easy to find for research purposes though with only nine posts.  Seems members had some difficulty finding anything positive to say about what Amaral and Co got right.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 19, 2019, 07:22:59 PM
I referred to it because I knew the general would criticise it thinking it was mine... Over to you to answer the generals criticism..
My thought process was quite original... Perhaps you are a little embarrassed by your comment... PJ bashing by sil... Lol

Nope.  The ball is firmly in your court.   &^^&*
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 07:44:00 PM
Nope.  The ball is firmly in your court.   &^^&*

nope its in your court...you made the statement...I simply quoted you
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 19, 2019, 07:50:38 PM
nope its in your court...you made the statement...I simply quoted you

I don't play your childish games.   ?{)(**
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 07:56:40 PM
I don't play your childish games.   ?{)(**

I think most of what you post consists of childish games....I quoted your post where you criticise the PJ and the investigation







Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 19, 2019, 08:10:48 PM
I think most of what you post consists of childish games....I quoted your post where you criticise the PJ and the investigation

So get on with it ... my Xmas pud will not cook itself.    *&^^&
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 19, 2019, 08:15:37 PM

Is there any other way? MRE on a hexi stove sat in a wadi......
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 08:19:45 PM
Is there any other way? MRE on a hexi stove sat in a wadi......

as needs be....but to promote yourself as a decent cook as sil does...then says the recipe starts with  jar of cook in sauce is quite funny
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 08:23:18 PM
Was the Duke of Holland part of the Ocean Club? The answer is no, it was in Praia da Luz. So which Mark Warner employee was so on the ball that she reached there before the missing child procedure began?

“No time for being vague, surely? I know there wasn't a timepiece between them (I mean, why would you, you're on holiday?), but they're all pretty adamant about the spacings of the 'checks'.”

Indeed there was no need for them to be vague, they were VERY adamant they checked the children every half hour, if this WAS the case, then there was no need for a timeline never mind two of them!

It would look something like this: left for Tapas at 8.00 =1st check would be 8.30 and so on.
There was a claim that none had watches or clocks or mobile phones. So how would they know if they checked every half hour as they claimed.

As it turns out Clarence was wrong- one did have a watch!

It was also claimed that they never agreed to or had checked on each other’s children that week EXCEPT the night MBM ‘disappeared’.

They claimed they only listened at the door, However, the McCann children were checked by  a few more people that particular evening, and had two physical checks by parents, who were alarmed by an alleged moving door!

“Discredited by whom, Ironside?”
Probably Sherlock or shergar?


“Was the Duke of Holland part of the Ocean Club? The answer is no, it was in Praia da Luz. So which Mark Warner employee was so on the ball that she reached there before the missing child procedure began?”

Interesting, how the timeline had to be changed to accommodate varying scenarios. About 10pm Kate raised the alarm? About could mean 10.15?
She went to her 10pm check and spent 10 minutes looking for her daughter and the paedo gang as if they would be hiding in the apartment- as according to her she ‘knew right away she was abducted’

Strange thing to do when you think about it?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 19, 2019, 08:43:25 PM
By authorities you mean the initial investigation which imo has been discredited.  The present investigation has expressed no such concern

Rowley no less, an assistant commissioner to the MET declares they are more than happy to not investigate the parents because this was done by the first investigation,far from being discredited its a ringing endorsement.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 19, 2019, 08:46:15 PM
- at around 10 p.m., when KATE went to the apartment she verified that MADELEINE had disappeared, and that the window and shutters of the bedroom were open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm


Just because its written in the thrice translated non verbatim files and you shout it out doesn't make it so,its words after all.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 08:49:40 PM
Rowley no less, an assistant commissioner to the MET declares they are more than happy to not investigate the parents because this was done by the first investigation,far from being discredited its a ringing endorsement.

not really ...the first imvestigation investigated the parents but didnt bother investigating anything else
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 19, 2019, 08:54:04 PM
not really ...the first imvestigation investigated the parents but didnt bother investigating anything else

Yes really,its written and on video to be so,he said it and no translation errors.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 08:57:02 PM
Yes really,its written and on video to be so,he said it and no translation errors.
you havent given the full quote....something like..

the parents...taht was dealt with by the first investigation...WEVE LOOKED AT everything...


so Rowley said they looked at everything...they didnt just rely on the first investigation
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 09:05:41 PM

Just because its written in the thrice translated non verbatim files and you shout it out doesn't make it so,its words after all.

Kate didn't verify- she claimed/ alleged they were open. Upon seeing this 'evidence' that an abductor/s climbed in and stole her daughter, with no thought to her own safety,she  searched the apartment for the child and paedo gang- No one else saw the whooshing curtains or open window and shutters OR paedo gang.

Once she had established that the gang with her daughter was no longer in the apartment, she left the twins and ran to tell the others, who then ran back to search the apartment again- well just in case the gang forgot something and had to back track... chit happens even to the most vile of preps
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 19, 2019, 09:10:13 PM
Kate didn't verify- she claimed/ alleged they were open. Upon seeing this 'evidence' that an abductor/s climbed in and stole her daughter, with no thought to her own safety,she  searched the apartment for the child and paedo gang- No one else saw the whooshing curtains or open window and shutters OR paedo gang.

Once she had established that the gang with her daughter was no longer in the apartment, she left the twins and ran to tell the others, who then ran back to search the apartment again- well just in case the gang forgot something and had to back track... chit happens even to the most vile of preps

From the link provide by Brietta

The situation that concerns the window of the bedroom where MADELEINE slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to KATE.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 09:28:20 PM
The authorities were not convinced by the timeline provided by the group, which is why they wanted a reconstitution. In my opinion the only reason they wrote what they did in their reports is because they had no evidence with which to contradict what they were told.

Hence why they were treated with much deserved, imo, suspicion.

It became clear to many people including the GNR AND PJ  that the tapas  group were NOT being completely honest about something, and that the' abductors' alleged entry was 'staged' to cover up behaviors. I suspect it was to protect them from a public and family/work back lash. A PR job.

Telling people that their daughter came to no harm is stunningly crass.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 09:33:46 PM
Hence why they were treated with much deserved, imo, suspicion.

It became clear to many people including the GNR AND PJ  that the tapas  group were NOT being completely honest about something, and that the' abductors' alleged entry was 'staged' to cover up behaviors. I suspect it was to protect them from a public and family/work back lash. A PR job.

Telling people that their daughter came to no harm is stunningly crass.


the McCanns have never said that...your post is stunningly ignorant
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Erngath on December 19, 2019, 09:36:50 PM
Hence why they were treated with much deserved, imo, suspicion.

It became clear to many people including the GNR AND PJ  that the tapas  group were NOT being completely honest about something, and that the' abductors' alleged entry was 'staged' to cover up behaviors. I suspect it was to protect them from a public and family/work back lash. A PR job.

Telling people that their daughter came to no harm is stunningly crass.
[/quote



Do you believe NSY believe that the parents and their friends are NOT being completely honest?
Time has moved on, but you have not.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 09:48:52 PM
Investigation-Nothing has moved anywhere.  Personal jibes  from you and the crew are seen as a victory to me.

But since we are allowed make observations- here is mine: I find it beyond belief that a couple who openly claimed to have enjoyed a few nights with CF whilst at the same time making claims their daughter was abducted by a paedo gang, that you and other supporters feel sorry for THEM.  Those photo shoots as a happy, loving family, leave me with a feeling of sickness in my stomach to think their other daughter could be lying in a grave rotting away or at the hands of an unsavory gang.   as for supporters opinion of me... @)(++(*
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Erngath on December 19, 2019, 10:00:20 PM
Investigation-Nothing has moved anywhere.  Personal jibes  from you and the crew are seen as a victory to me.

But since we are allowed make observations- here is mine: I find it beyond belief that a couple who openly claimed to have enjoyed a few nights with CF whilst at the same time making claims their daughter was abducted by a paedo gang, that you and other supporters feel sorry for THEM.  Those photo shoots as a happy, loving family, leave me with a feeling of sickness in my stomach to think their other daughter could be lying in a grave rotting away or at the hands of an unsavory gang.   as for supporters opinion of me... @)(++(*

Thank you for your usual rant which leaves me feeling sick to my stomach with your incredible unawareness of how the parents of a missing child would desperately seek any opportunity to portray their family without their missing child !
Perhaps take a moment to reflect.
Perhaps not!
Doesn't seem to be part of your character.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 10:20:33 PM
Thank you for your usual rant which leaves me feeling sick to my stomach with your incredible unawareness of how the parents of a missing child would desperately seek any opportunity to portray their family without their missing child !
Perhaps take a moment to reflect.
Perhaps not!
Doesn't seem to be part of your character.

You know NOTHING about my character- so enough with your self righteousness, and deluded self importance.
 a moment to reflect and  ^*&&
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Erngath on December 19, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
You know NOTHING about my character- so enough with your self righteousness, and deluded self importance.
 a moment to reflect and  ^*&&


 (&^&
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 19, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
You know NOTHING about my character- so enough with your self righteousness, and deluded self importance.
 a moment to reflect and  ^*&&

its actually quite easy to deduce a lot about you from your posts....you claiming you have two BSc degrees and a Phd tells me a lot
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 19, 2019, 10:34:45 PM
its actually quite easy to deduce a lot about you from your posts....you claiming you have two BSc degrees and a Phd tells me a lot



Well, actually it doesn't because you do not know the subjects. Not as bright as you claim IMO.
 
From people who claim to not care  or are not interested in me or my opinions -you all just can't stay away. I am truly flattered that you all take A LOT of the time away from your families to read my posts! ^*&&

Thank you all. xx
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Erngath on December 19, 2019, 10:40:45 PM


Well, actually it doesn't because you do not know the subjects. Not as bright as you claim IMO.
 
From people who claim to not care  or are not interested in me or my opinions -you all just can't stay away. I am truly flattered that you all take A LOT of the time away from your families to read my posts! ^*&&

Thank you all. xx

You really do care.

 (&^&
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2019, 10:44:49 PM


Well, actually it doesn't because you do not know the subjects. Not as bright as you claim IMO.
 
From people who claim to not care  or are not interested in me or my opinions -you all just can't stay away. I am truly flattered that you all take A LOT of the time away from your families to read my posts! ^*&&

Thank you all. xx
At least we don’t get our families to write our posts for us.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 07:26:38 AM
How far from the OC.... Certainly not hurtling round Luz.
I see nothing strange in the action.. I would think many were searching before the missing child procedure began

If, as Gerry McCann said, it was around 22:13 when Kate appeared at the Tapas Bar to raise the alarm then it's hard to imagine an MW employee raising the alarm in the Duke of Holland at almost the same time.

The only MW employee who mentions the Duke is Emma Knight, but she was informed of the disappearance by Lyndsay Johnson at 'about' 22:17. It's difficult to see how she could have reached the Duke at the time given.

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2019, 07:29:53 AM
If, as Gerry McCann said, it was around 22:13 when Kate appeared at the Tapas Bar to raise the alarm then it's hard to imagine an MW employee raising the alarm in the Duke of Holland at almost the same time.

The only MW employee who mentions the Duke is Emma Knight, but she was informed of the disappearance by Lyndsay Johnson at 'about' 22:17. It's difficult to see how she could have reached the Duke at the time given.
Is it possible do you think that the alarm was raised around 10 like Gerry said in his first statement?  That really does make much more sense doesn’t it?  It also means Gerry could not have been Smithman.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 07:54:00 AM
Is it possible do you think that the alarm was raised around 10 like Gerry said in his first statement?  That really does make much more sense doesn’t it?  It also means Gerry could not have been Smithman.
How, if Kate got up and went to check at the very specific time of 10.03?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 07:56:25 AM
Is it possible do you think that the alarm was raised around 10 like Gerry said in his first statement?  That really does make much more sense doesn’t it?  It also means Gerry could not have been Smithman.
Hasn't someone plotted all of these movements on a chart before? Or is that task impossible given the fact that some timings are specific and some are woolier than a particularly hirsute sheep.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2019, 08:07:40 AM
How, if Kate got up and went to check at the very specific time of 10.03?
According to whoever transcribed Gerry McCann’s words.  How do you think?  How do you think a MW employee raised the alarm in another part of town at almost the exact same time as Kate?  Use logic General.  It’s not that hard to work out.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 08:58:11 AM
According to whoever transcribed Gerry McCann’s words.  How do you think?  How do you think a MW employee raised the alarm in another part of town at almost the exact same time as Kate?  Use logic General.  It’s not that hard to work out.
Carrier pigeon.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2019, 09:04:32 AM
Carrier pigeon.
Yes, I can well believe  that would seem like the logical explanation to you.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 09:29:17 AM
Yes, I can well believe  that would seem like the logical explanation to you.
Veiled insults are no insult at all. Man / woman up!
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 09:42:04 AM
There was nothing veiled about that insult. 
You're catching on.
What was the question? How can it be that someone in the Duchess of Sc..thorpe boozer heard about MM's disappearance before anyone else?
1. It didn't happen
2. It happened, but later than reported.
3. It happened and throws all other times out by several minutes.
4. Tear in the space / time continuum.
5. Wibble.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2019, 09:49:42 AM
You're catching on.
What was the question? How can it be that someone in the Duchess of Sc..thorpe boozer heard about MM's disappearance before anyone else?
1. It didn't happen
2. It happened, but later than reported.
3. It happened and throws all other times out by several minutes.
4. Tear in the space / time continuum.
5. Wibble.
I think we can safely discount numbers 1, 4 and 5 using logical thought processes.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 09:56:54 AM
You're catching on.
What was the question? How can it be that someone in the Duchess of Sc..thorpe boozer heard about MM's disappearance before anyone else?
1. It didn't happen
2. It happened, but later than reported.
3. It happened and throws all other times out by several minutes.
4. Tear in the space / time continuum.
5. Wibble.

The Millenium Restaurant is an 8-10 minute walk from Block 5, but even so;

When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 10:02:02 AM
The Millenium Restaurant is an 8-10 minute walk from Block 5, but even so;

When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm
So what gives? So this person arrived by car? Motorbike? Even then, it would still be 10.15 - 10.20. Maybe she's mistaken.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 20, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
So what gives? So this person arrived by car? Motorbike? Even then, it would still be 10.15 - 10.20. Maybe she's mistaken.


Always some one else is mistaken,now if the alarm was raised earlier??
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: The General on December 20, 2019, 10:23:56 AM

Always some one else is mistaken,now if the alarm was raised earlier??
9.40pm? (About)
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 20, 2019, 10:26:25 AM
9.40pm? (About)


Reports of,wasn't there?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 10:30:27 AM
So what gives? So this person arrived by car? Motorbike? Even then, it would still be 10.15 - 10.20. Maybe she's mistaken.

It seems to me the choice is between believing the group and those around them, because they can't all be right.

The landlord of the Duke, by the way, agreed with his wife;

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_WRIGHT.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 10:33:18 AM
9.40pm? (About)

Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2019, 11:27:40 AM
Timing was obviously all over the place with the priority being to get out there and look for the missing child.
By the 12th May Ian Herbert wrote in the Independent of apparent shortcomings in the gathering and collation of whatever evidence there was.

Snip
There is no telling how many clues have been under detectives' eyes all along but Stella Cash is certainly the kind of person who might have provided some. She was working at the Duke of Holland bar, 100 metres from the place where Kate McCann, Madeleine's mother, walked from the bar ­ past the swimming pool, up her apartment's 10 stone steps and through the child gate ­ to look in on her daughter at 10pm.

Several Mark Warner guests dined at Ms Cash's restaurant that night and she later drove home past the McCanns' corner apartment at 10.50pm but no police officer has questioned her about what she saw. "I don't think I saw anything suspicious but then I don't know what they might call 'suspicious'," she said. These are the individuals who form a vital part of an inquiry such as this, according to a serving detective chief superintendent who has put several child killers behind bars.

"You start by clearing the ground around your feet," he said.

"You need to know who has been in and out of every business near that scene."

https://themaddiecasefiles.com/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-12-05--t7203.html
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 20, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm


 I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching.
I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 11:56:54 AM
Apart from the usual goading, kindly explain yourself.

Most cooks find whether the effort of making something by hand beats buying ready-made an easy choice.

No one with intelligence would find such a simple consideration difficult.

Go and have a look in your kitchen/pantry.

 (&^&

If you think any decent cook uses jars of ready made cook in sauces you are grossly mistaken.. Marco Pierre White has been criticised for using stock cubes
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 20, 2019, 11:59:12 AM
Timing was obviously all over the place with the priority being to get out there and look for the missing child.
By the 12th May Ian Herbert wrote in the Independent of apparent shortcomings in the gathering and collation of whatever evidence there was.

Snip
There is no telling how many clues have been under detectives' eyes all along but Stella Cash is certainly the kind of person who might have provided some. She was working at the Duke of Holland bar, 100 metres from the place where Kate McCann, Madeleine's mother, walked from the bar ­ past the swimming pool, up her apartment's 10 stone steps and through the child gate ­ to look in on her daughter at 10pm.

Several Mark Warner guests dined at Ms Cash's restaurant that night and she later drove home past the McCanns' corner apartment at 10.50pm but no police officer has questioned her about what she saw. "I don't think I saw anything suspicious but then I don't know what they might call 'suspicious'," she said. These are the individuals who form a vital part of an inquiry such as this, according to a serving detective chief superintendent who has put several child killers behind bars.

"You start by clearing the ground around your feet," he said.

"You need to know who has been in and out of every business near that scene."

https://themaddiecasefiles.com/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-12-05--t7203.html

Mr Herbert has a fevered imagination if he thinks the Duque de Hollandia is within a 100m radius of the incident scene.  Anyone can check this out for themself.

I've never heard of Stella Cash, so thank you for that.   *&(+(+
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
Timing was obviously all over the place with the priority being to get out there and look for the missing child.
By the 12th May Ian Herbert wrote in the Independent of apparent shortcomings in the gathering and collation of whatever evidence there was.

Snip
There is no telling how many clues have been under detectives' eyes all along but Stella Cash is certainly the kind of person who might have provided some. She was working at the Duke of Holland bar, 100 metres from the place where Kate McCann, Madeleine's mother, walked from the bar ­ past the swimming pool, up her apartment's 10 stone steps and through the child gate ­ to look in on her daughter at 10pm.

Several Mark Warner guests dined at Ms Cash's restaurant that night and she later drove home past the McCanns' corner apartment at 10.50pm but no police officer has questioned her about what she saw. "I don't think I saw anything suspicious but then I don't know what they might call 'suspicious'," she said. These are the individuals who form a vital part of an inquiry such as this, according to a serving detective chief superintendent who has put several child killers behind bars.

"You start by clearing the ground around your feet," he said.

"You need to know who has been in and out of every business near that scene."

https://themaddiecasefiles.com/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-12-05--t7203.html

The Duke of Holland bar may have been 100 metres from the Tapas Complex as the crow flies, but on foot it was between 550 and 700 metres away, a walk of between 8 and 10 minutes.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
I see you have ducked the issue entirely.  Just answer the questions!

And when did the goalposts change from cook to Marco Pierre White?

I'm not ducking anything and this is now all off topic... You obviously enjoy preparing a nice family meal but have little interest in the art of cooking...
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 12:13:16 PM
The Duke of Holland bar may have been 100 metres from the Tapas Complex as the crow flies, but on foot it was between 550 and 700 metres away, a walk of between 8 and 10 minutes.

15 mins for a mile... So 550 yds, around 5. Min
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2019, 12:23:35 PM
Mr Herbert has a fevered imagination if he thinks the Duque de Hollandia is within a 100m radius of the incident scene.  Anyone can check this out for themself.

I've never heard of Stella Cash, so thank you for that.   *&(+(+

Somewhere else I read it was 200m ( from the resort but I didn't bother to check it out as I've seen no reports of anyone from the Ocean Club rushing in to break the news.
In my opinion it was likely to have been a phone call.

Mrs Wright did give a statement on the 15th May https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm and I see that is where I got the 200m from.  The newspaper was printed on the 12th but it doesn't look as if Ms Cash was asked for a statement.

It raises the thought that if the recommended procedure had been followed as per Horrocks et al? ~ we would have had witness statements from staff on duty in the Dolphin and Kelly's on the 3rd.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 20, 2019, 12:25:33 PM
I'm not ducking anything and this is now all off topic... You obviously enjoy preparing a nice family meal but have little interest in the art of cooking...

It started off topic at the moment when you chose to raise it.

It is relevant to the general situation in Luz in 2007.  Just not this thread.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 01:02:04 PM
Somewhere else I read it was 200m ( from the resort but I didn't bother to check it out as I've seen no reports of anyone from the Ocean Club rushing in to break the news.
In my opinion it was likely to have been a phone call.

Mrs Wright did give a statement on the 15th May https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE_WRIGHT.htm and I see that is where I got the 200m from.  The newspaper was printed on the 12th but it doesn't look as if Ms Cash was asked for a statement.

It raises the thought that if the recommended procedure had been followed as per Horrocks et al? ~ we would have had witness statements from staff on duty in the Dolphin and Kelly's on the 3rd.

Knowing the local area and examining the files can be very helpful, especially when reading newspaper accounts. The article quoted had several other errors also.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 01:56:27 PM
The Duke of Holland bar may have been 100 metres from the Tapas Complex as the crow flies, but on foot it was between 550 and 700 metres away, a walk of between 8 and 10 minutes.
So it looks as though it could have been a phone call.... So the distance us unimportant.  It shows how easy it can be to draw the wrong conclusions when all the facts are not known
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 02:54:17 PM
So it looks as though it could have been a phone call.... So the distance us unimportant.  It shows how easy it can be to draw the wrong conclusions when all the facts are not known

Phone call? Where did that idea come from?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: John on December 20, 2019, 03:15:19 PM
So it looks as though it could have been a phone call.... So the distance us unimportant.  It shows how easy it can be to draw the wrong conclusions when all the facts are not known

I couldn't agree with you more. The person with the greatest experience of what went on in the hours and days following Madeleine's disappearance was Gonçalo Amaral. Inevitably, he will have at his fingertips information which has never worked its way into the public domain. I for one would love to speak to him about this.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 03:49:45 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. The person with the greatest experience of what went on in the hours and days following Madeleine's disappearance was Gonçalo Amaral. Inevitably, he will have at his fingertips information which has never worked its way into the public domain. I for one would love to speak to him about this.

I too would live to speak to him but I doubt he would like what I would have to say.  SY will have had the chance to speak again to all the UK witnesses in their own language and have had the opportunity to sort out more precise details of what exactly happened .Amaral only has the statements which I think.. Based in what has been said... Contain inaccuracies
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2019, 03:51:50 PM
I think the person you're referring to came back to the UK on the Saturday. Why shouldn't they wait until Sunday before reading a newspaper?

If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page and pages 2 and 3 I doubt it was the only UK based newspaper to do so.  And given 2007 was well within the digital age I guess all newspapers carrying the story were available from the airport early morning?  I think it unlikely British tourists visiting Algarve departing Sat were unaware that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann went missing from a holiday apartment situated on a MW resort within PDL on the Thu eve.  Most holiday accomm and airports have satellite tv too. 

Does anyone know what the logistics are in terms of foreign newspapers at airports?  Are they sent electronically and printed locally or are they printed in the host country and then airfreighted? 
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 03:57:26 PM
If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page and pages 2 and 3 I doubt it was the only UK based newspaper to do so.  And given 2007 was well within the digital age I guess all newspapers carrying the story were available from the airport early morning?  I think it unlikely British tourists visiting Algarve departing Sat were unaware that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann went missing from a holiday apartment situated on a MW resort within PDL on the Thu eve.  Most holiday accomm and airports have satellite tv too. 

Does anyone know what the logistics are in terms of foreign newspapers at airports?  Are they sent electronically and printed locally or are they printed in the host country and then airfreighted?

What makes you think the Times would be available at a Portuguese airport.  On Business class flights they may well be available but I don't think on economy.  The Times is not a particularly popular paper...
I used to always, get the Sunday Times  but never any other day.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2019, 04:31:01 PM
What makes you think the Times would be available at a Portuguese airport.  On Business class flights they may well be available but I don't think on economy.  The Times is not a particularly popular paper...
I used to always, get the Sunday Times  but never any other day.

Afaik most airports carry a range of English newspapers same day?  I'm not talking about papers handed out on flights but papers within vendor stalls and such like.  If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page is there any reason to believe Portuguese papers didn't along with images thereby alerting British holidaymakers to the unfolding drama long before they arrived home?

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2019, 04:43:10 PM
Afaik most airports carry a range of English newspapers same day?  I'm not talking about papers handed out on flights but papers within vendor stalls and such like.  If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page is there any reason to believe Portuguese papers didn't along with images thereby alerting British holidaymakers to the unfolding drama long before they arrived home?

Relay currently operates at Faro:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_(shop)
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2019, 04:47:09 PM
Relay currently operates at Faro:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_(shop)

 (ty6e[

https://www.ana.pt/en/fao/services-shopping/shops-and-food/relay

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Angelo222 on December 20, 2019, 05:00:37 PM
Afaik most airports carry a range of English newspapers same day?  I'm not talking about papers handed out on flights but papers within vendor stalls and such like.  If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page is there any reason to believe Portuguese papers didn't along with images thereby alerting British holidaymakers to the unfolding drama long before they arrived home?

Many holiday airlines carry London published newspapers with them so returning tourists can have a read.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 05:22:49 PM
Relay currently operates at Faro:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_(shop)

You seem to be trying to find more weak evidence to support your claim to have solved the case...the best evidence you havent is the complete inaction of SY...the PJ ...and the McCanns. its been 5 months since you claim to have solved the case...id say its about time you understand how wrong you are

If CT learnt about the abduction on Saturday why should she try and hide the fact
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 05:34:55 PM
Phone call? Where did that idea come from?


On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared


It says she was informed... It doesn't say anyone came into the bar... It may well have been a phonecall
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 05:40:11 PM

On the night of the disappearance, 3rd May, she was working in her bar when some employee who she cannot identify (but whom she knows works for Mark Warner) informed them that a girl had disappeared


It says she was informed... It doesn't say anyone came into the bar... It may well have been a phonecall

Oh, I see, it's just a bit of straw-clutching. You obviously didn't read her husband's statement;

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_WRIGHT.htm

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Eleanor on December 20, 2019, 05:44:42 PM
Oh, I see, it's just a bit of straw-clutching. You obviously didn't read her husband's statement;

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_WRIGHT.htm

Straw clutching for what reason?  And by whom?  None of this is worth shite.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2019, 06:05:32 PM
Knowing the local area and examining the files can be very helpful, especially when reading newspaper accounts. The article quoted had several other errors also.

Almost everything ever printed or recorded regarding Madeleine's disappearance teems with error or factoid.  Some deliberately so.
One can usually separate the wheat from the chaff by this stage of the proceedings.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 06:24:15 PM
Oh, I see, it's just a bit of straw-clutching. You obviously didn't read her husband's statement;

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_WRIGHT.htm

I think the one who is straw clutching is yourself to think this has any relevace to maddies disappearance...its just symptomatic of the fact you have no real evidence to continue your attack on the innocence of the parents
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 20, 2019, 07:25:28 PM
Carrier pigeon.
Do pigeons fly at 10:00 o'clock at night?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 20, 2019, 07:29:46 PM
You're catching on.
What was the question? How can it be that someone in the Duchess of Sc..thorpe boozer heard about MM's disappearance before anyone else?
1. It didn't happen
2. It happened, but later than reported.
3. It happened and throws all other times out by several minutes.
4. Tear in the space / time continuum.
5. Wibble.
My solution was that someone became aware of Madeleine's disappearance before Kate did.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 07:48:18 PM
I think the one who is straw clutching is yourself to think this has any relevace to maddies disappearance...its just symptomatic of the fact you have no real evidence to continue your attack on the innocence of the parents

This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2019, 07:51:35 PM
Almost everything ever printed or recorded regarding Madeleine's disappearance teems with error or factoid.  Some deliberately so.
One can usually separate the wheat from the chaff by this stage of the proceedings.

In my opinion most newspaper articles contain mostly chaff.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 08:00:13 PM
This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence.

It does in your opinion...you need to remember its your opinion that this casts doubt on Gerrys alibi....it certainly doesnt imo.

were you not recently complaining about posters posting opininion as fact
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2019, 08:08:24 PM
In my opinion most newspaper articles contain mostly chaff.

depends which newsapers you read...the art is reading the article precisely and being able to seperate the wheat from the chaff
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2019, 08:09:48 PM
This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence.
 

Without a single verifiable time from anyone.  I rather think not 😀
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 20, 2019, 08:40:31 PM
This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence.
Why  do you blame Gerry for that?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 20, 2019, 08:41:03 PM
Oh, I see, it's just a bit of straw-clutching. You obviously didn't read her husband's statement;

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_WRIGHT.htm

But it looks better to say they phoned, can't we just pretend and make it up as is the usual case to 'support' and 'Protect' the illusion of a sad couple who's daughter was whooshed away.

"This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence."


Indeed it does as does many other instances in evidence offered by the McCann's.

"
Without a single verifiable time from anyone.  I rather think not 😀"

Yeah, those till receipts from the Smiths were faked just to stick the McCann's in it.


Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 20, 2019, 09:08:18 PM
But it looks better to say they phoned, can't we just pretend and make it up as is the usual case to 'support' and 'Protect' the illusion of a sad couple who's daughter was whooshed away.

"This evidence of early knowledge is real, and does indeed cast doubt on Gerry McCann's evidence."


Indeed it does as does many other instances in evidence offered by the McCann's.

"
Without a single verifiable time from anyone.  I rather think not 😀"

Yeah, those till receipts from the Smiths were faked just to stick the McCann's in it.
How can we be sure the till receipts had anything to do with the Smith's purchases, unless they were shown to match their credit card usage.  If it was cash it could be anyone , unless the Smiths remembered the exact amount and it matched the till receipt.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 20, 2019, 09:31:20 PM
How can we be sure the till receipts had anything to do with the Smith's purchases, unless they were shown to match their credit card usage.  If it was cash it could be anyone , unless the Smiths remembered the exact amount and it matched the till receipt.

As far as I am aware, the receipts were presented to verify the time...
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2019, 10:28:15 PM
If Saturday's edition of The Times carried the story front page and pages 2 and 3 I doubt it was the only UK based newspaper to do so.  And given 2007 was well within the digital age I guess all newspapers carrying the story were available from the airport early morning?  I think it unlikely British tourists visiting Algarve departing Sat were unaware that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann went missing from a holiday apartment situated on a MW resort within PDL on the Thu eve.  Most holiday accomm and airports have satellite tv too. 

Does anyone know what the logistics are in terms of foreign newspapers at airports?  Are they sent electronically and printed locally or are they printed in the host country and then airfreighted?
More to the point what had this woman who you believe abducted Madeleine done with her on her return to England?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 20, 2019, 11:32:21 PM
As far as I am aware, the receipts were presented to verify the time...

The receipts verify nothing in my opinion, least of all the Smiths' timing.  There is a receipt from Kelly's bar ... but there is nothing to connect it in any way to the Smiths.

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 21, 2019, 12:21:01 AM
The receipts verify nothing in my opinion, least of all the Smiths' timing.  There is a receipt from Kelly's bar ... but there is nothing to connect it in any way to the Smiths.

There is information to suggest a connection to the Smiths, and the timing.

However, you are correct in the sense that a decent investigative journalist would wish to ask a couple of questions of the Smiths, for corroboration.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: sadie on December 21, 2019, 02:12:59 AM
How can we be sure the till receipts had anything to do with the Smith's purchases, unless they were shown to match their credit card usage.  If it was cash it could be anyone , unless the Smiths remembered the exact amount and it matched the till receipt.

But what could that mean?

Could it mean the Smiths were involved in any way?  I don't think so from my understanding at present, but I am willing to have my perception changed if any facts appeared.

or,

Could it mean that without their knowledge false receipts were produced by the PJ ?   I dread to think where this could lead us.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Myster on December 21, 2019, 05:37:07 AM
More to the point what had this woman who you believe abducted Madeleine done with her on her return to England?
Unpacked MM from a suitcase, which went uninspected through customs (assuming she survived in the cargo hold), and then revived her with smelling salts.  Enrolled her at the nearest prep school, registered her with a doctor, had her eyes fitted with contacts by a dodgy optician to conceal the coloboma...etc, etc.

Or... despite being on the verge of her sixtieth childless decade and desperate to 'adopt by abduction', she abandoned MM by the roadside in Portugal on the way to the airport.  Which would put this woman in a totally different league to the McCanns
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2019, 07:14:55 AM
Unpacked MM from a suitcase, which went uninspected through customs (assuming she survived in the cargo hold), and then revived her with smelling salts.  Enrolled her at the nearest prep school, registered her with a doctor, had her eyes fitted with contacts by a dodgy optician to conceal the coloboma...etc, etc.

Or... despite being on the verge of her sixtieth childless decade and desperate to 'adopt by abduction', she abandoned MM by the roadside in Portugal on the way to the airport.  Which would put this woman in a totally different league to the McCanns
Sixtieth decade though??  Man, she sure was one old, old lady abductor!!
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 21, 2019, 08:25:11 AM
But what could that mean?

Could it mean the Smiths were involved in any way?  I don't think so from my understanding at present, but I am willing to have my perception changed if any facts appeared.

or,

Could it mean that without their knowledge false receipts were produced by the PJ ?   I dread to think where this could lead us.
Was it a real quiet night at the bars?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2019, 12:13:52 PM
Where were the nannies?

Susan Owen, Sinead Vine and Emma Wilding left home at 21:30 and went to the Mirage with Nathan, the waterfront manager.

According to Sinead, a group of people entered the bar at 22:45 searching for MM. Emma Wilding, however, says she was told at 22:00.

Sarah Williamson, Leanne Wagstaff and Kirsty Maryan left home at 22:30. They bumped into Amy who gave them the news and they joined the searches.

Lynn Fretter was at home with Catriona Baker. Leanne Wagstaff came and gave them the news at 23:30 and Lynn joined the searches.

Amy Tierney, Charlotte Pennington and Jacqueline Williamson were at the night creche and were told at 22:05 or 22:15.

Lyndsay Johnson was in an unknown location, and was told by Amy by phone at 10:20.

Stacy Potz and Pauline McCann; unknown.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 21, 2019, 01:07:46 PM
More to the point what had this woman who you believe abducted Madeleine done with her on her return to England?

No one knows for sure the reason MM disappeared.  Some believe an accident in 5A and subsequent cover up by parents and members of T7.  Some, like myself, believe MM was abducted but I have no idea what the motive was: raise as own, sadistic/sexual, procure for a.n other for emotional/financial reasons, social experiment and potentially other reasons I haven't thought of.

Afaik this woman's testimony about returning to England on Saturday 5th May was not corroborated?  It seems she was in England on 8th May when she provided Leicester police with a wit stat but I have not seen the wit stat to know whether it was face-to-face or over the phone.  If the former then the meeting took place not at the home address but at a temporary place of work where rooms are available to anyone on a commercial basis. It seems the husband spoke to the police over the phone only.  He apparently had business in EU and therefore may have remained within the Schengen area.   
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 21, 2019, 01:13:18 PM
Unpacked MM from a suitcase, which went uninspected through customs (assuming she survived in the cargo hold), and then revived her with smelling salts.  Enrolled her at the nearest prep school, registered her with a doctor, had her eyes fitted with contacts by a dodgy optician to conceal the coloboma...etc, etc.

Who said anything about MM removed from Schengen area?

Or... despite being on the verge of her sixtieth childless decade and desperate to 'adopt by abduction', she abandoned MM by the roadside in Portugal on the way to the airport.  Which would put this woman in a totally different league to the McCanns

If MM was abducted I don't know anything about the emotional/mental health of the abductor and/or motive so I would only be speculating. 

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 21, 2019, 01:23:14 PM
You seem to be trying to find more weak evidence to support your claim to have solved the case...the best evidence you havent is the complete inaction of SY...the PJ ...and the McCanns. its been 5 months since you claim to have solved the case...id say its about time you understand how wrong you are

If CT learnt about the abduction on Saturday why should she try and hide the fact

Unless you are currently in the employ of SY/PJ how can you possibly know what is going on, especially given Portuguese secrecy laws surrounding criminal cases?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2019, 01:39:40 PM
Unless you are currently in the employ of SY/PJ how can you possibly know what is going on, especially given Portuguese secrecy laws surrounding criminal cases?

I don't know what SY/PJ are investigating but I think we can be 100% sure it's not your theory
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 21, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
I don't know what SY/PJ are investigating but I think we can be 100% sure it's not your theory

A contradiction in terms I think: You don't know and yet you think you can be 100% sure? 

Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 21, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Many holiday airlines carry London published newspapers with them so returning tourists can have a read.

Thanks. 

Are we really to believe that someone who was directly above 5A only 2/3.5 hours before MM disappeared did not learn about the disappearance until arriving home some 2/3 days later?  Especially given the hotel it is claimed one was staying at whilst in Portugal appears to have had satellite tv?

https://www.hotelpinhaldosol.com/en/hotel

It offers spacious, air-conditioned rooms with satellite TV and private balconies.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2019, 04:38:28 PM
A contradiction in terms I think: You don't know and yet you think you can be 100% sure?

Not at all... I think we can be 100% sure the McCanns are not being investigated too
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Brietta on December 21, 2019, 04:39:23 PM
Thanks. 

Are we really to believe that someone who was directly above 5A only 2/3.5 hours before MM disappeared did not learn about the disappearance until arriving home some 2/3 days later?  Especially given the hotel it is claimed one was staying at whilst in Portugal appears to have had satellite tv?

https://www.hotelpinhaldosol.com/en/hotel

It offers spacious, air-conditioned rooms with satellite TV and private balconies.

Of course I can.  There is precedent which you choose to ignore.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2019, 04:44:10 PM
A witness who was in very close proximity to apartment 5A shortly before MM disappeared, in fact in the apartment directly above 5A, claims the first she was aware that a child had gone missing from the apartment below was when she arrived back in UK Sun morning and read about it in The Sunday Times.  However Saturday's edition covered the full story: front page and pages 2 and 3.
Can you provide a cite to support this claim
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 21, 2019, 04:44:26 PM
Not at all... I think we can be 100% sure the McCanns are not being investigated too

Well yes of course, & we can be 100% sure they didn't do it because......oh, wait, no we can't.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2019, 04:59:44 PM
Well yes of course, & we can be 100% sure they didn't do it because......oh, wait, no we can't.
I've never said that... But I think we can be very close to 100%they are not involved
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 21, 2019, 05:02:59 PM
I've never said that... But I think we can be very close to 100%they are not involved

I'm 60/80% certain that we can't.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2019, 05:14:30 PM
I'm 60/80% certain that we can't.
Wow, THAT unsure??  I’m amazed!
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 21, 2019, 05:21:07 PM
Wow, THAT unsure??  I’m amazed!

Just kidding. I'm 100% sure they dunnit, but I can't say so, because someone will report me for libel.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: barrier on December 21, 2019, 05:47:29 PM
No one knows for sure the reason MM disappeared.  Some believe an accident in 5A and subsequent cover up by parents and members of T7.  Some, like myself, believe MM was abducted but I have no idea what the motive was: raise as own, sadistic/sexual, procure for a.n other for emotional/financial reasons, social experiment and potentially other reasons I haven't thought of.

Afaik this woman's testimony about returning to England on Saturday 5th May was not corroborated?  It seems she was in England on 8th May when she provided Leicester police with a wit stat but I have not seen the wit stat to know whether it was face-to-face or over the phone.  If the former then the meeting took place not at the home address but at a temporary place of work where rooms are available to anyone on a commercial basis. It seems the husband spoke to the police over the phone only.  He apparently had business in EU and therefore may have remained within the Schengen area.   

What evidence do you have to support the theory of abduction,save not to countenance  a different outcome?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Just kidding. I'm 100% sure they dunnit, but I can't say so, because someone will report me for libel.
That’s more like it!  I was beginning to think you’d come to your senses for a minute...
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2019, 06:03:40 PM
What evidence do you have to support the theory of abduction,save not to countenance  a different outcome?
If the mccanns are not involved... And I think the evidence supports that... Then that makes abduction likely
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 21, 2019, 06:23:34 PM
Get back to the topic.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 21, 2019, 06:24:26 PM
If the mccanns are not involved... And I think the evidence supports that... Then that makes abduction likely
How is that remotely on topic?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2019, 06:25:37 PM
Get back to the topic.
please...
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 21, 2019, 08:21:53 PM
please...
It was said in frustration, either that or have deletions.   Please try and keep to the topic.
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 22, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
Not at all... I think we can be 100% sure the McCanns are not being investigated too

The McCanns have been investigated.  The witness under discussion hasn't been. 
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 22, 2019, 01:28:15 PM
The McCanns have been investigated.  The witness under discussion hasn't been.

Not investigated because there's no evidence to connect her to Maddies disappearance.  Is this on topic as Rob has said he's going to delete posts
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 22, 2019, 01:30:30 PM
Not investigated because there's no evidence to connect her to Maddies disappearance.  Is this on topic as Rob has said he's going to delete posts

But there was evidence connecting the McCanns to MM's disappearance?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 22, 2019, 01:35:49 PM
But there was evidence connecting the McCanns to MM's disappearance?

Parents would always be investigated as suspects... And evidence looked for. 
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 22, 2019, 10:33:39 PM
Parents would always be investigated as suspects... And evidence looked for.

I'm reminded of the police maxim: clear the ground beneath your feet  ?>)()<
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2019, 11:32:11 PM
But there was evidence connecting the McCanns to MM's disappearance?

ORLY?

What evidence ?
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 16, 2020, 12:33:15 PM
ORLY?

What evidence ?

Think I must have transposed was and there!
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 16, 2020, 12:45:03 PM
Reading the wit stat of a woman whose partner's sister lived in block 6 where they visited night of 3rd May she states she learned of MM's disappearance the following day from the partner's sister.

She only learnt of what had happened to little Madeleine the next day after having received a telephone call from her friend, who alerted her to what had happened;

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm

And yet according to PF's niece she did not learn of MM's disappearance until she arrived back in UK on Sunday 7th May.  Bah!

CT'After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 16, 2020, 12:55:17 PM
Reading the wit stat of a woman whose partner's sister lived in block 6 where they visited night of 3rd May she states she learned of MM's disappearance the following day from the partner's sister.

She only learnt of what had happened to little Madeleine the next day after having received a telephone call from her friend, who alerted her to what had happened;

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm

And yet according to PF's niece she did not learn of MM's disappearance until she arrived back in UK on Sunday 7th May.  Bah!

CT'After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

Please also note how MM is referred to:

"little Madeleine" and "missing child". 
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2020, 01:33:51 AM
Please also note how MM is referred to:

"little Madeleine" and "missing child".


So ?    $65*
Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on January 17, 2020, 12:07:36 PM

So ?    $65*

A lengthy police rog, undertaken in 2008, and yet not once is the "missing child" referred to by name.  And only once are the McCanns referred to by name.  Please contrast this with the police stats and rogs from others 2007/08 where witnesses refer to the "missing child" by name.  I have given an example above from Maria De Silva.  Here's another example from PF:

Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously.





Title: Re: When, where and how did witnesses learn of MM's disappearance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2020, 12:40:26 PM
A lengthy police rog, undertaken in 2008, and yet not once is the "missing child" referred to by name.  And only once are the McCanns referred to by name.  Please contrast this with the police stats and rogs from others 2007/08 where witnesses refer to the "missing child" by name.  I have given an example above from Maria De Silva.  Here's another example from PF:

Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously.

PF was an old lady.  With progressive age, the first thing to go, memory wise, is names.  Names and other minor memory losses is commonly called 'having a senior moment'

I dont think that CT is a 'spring chicken' either ... and has shown her rather woolley thinking in at least one way  i.e. the level that Mrs Fenns flat was.


It is a common aging problem and is beginning to happen to both me and my hubby.  I don't think that there is anything sinister about it tbh, Holly.


Could even be that her relative who informed her, used the terminology


Madeleine Mccann is a bit of a mouthful amongst a host of other new names to remember.

In the early days my major memory problem was how to spell Madaline nah, Madeliene nah, Madeleine



Anyway, I must get on.  Nice talking to you Holly.