UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: ISpyWithMyEye on May 21, 2020, 10:47:04 AM
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
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JB considered CM a good friend. He was around the same age, local and a computer salesman. He was part of the group that hung out in the local watering holes.
He was also a former boyfriend of JM's close pal Liz Rimington (2 m's?).
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
JM was asked about their sex life which she described as 'normal'!
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
JM was asked about their sex life which she described as 'normal'!
I watched Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad'. It was hilarious as they suggested Jeremy drove the tractor dressed just like Adam Ant; velvet coat, the lot.
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
JM was asked about their sex life which she described as 'normal'!
I wonder how she defines "normal".
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I wonder how she defines "normal".
Didn't Jeremy describe his relationship with his parents as normal? Normal, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder imo.
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I watched Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad'. It was hilarious as they suggested Jeremy drove the tractor dressed just like Adam Ant; velvet coat, the lot.
And The Sun hack refers to him as promiscuous. How the hell would he know and who was he to cast judgement about consenting adults?
I wonder if people that make such comments are just ultra conservative perhaps because of how they've been brought up? Jealous? Or they're conflicted in some way?
No idea what they would make of Grindr or Tinder. Mrs Whitehouse must turn in her grave.
I can't think of anything worse than hooking up with some hitherto unknown individual for sex but each to their own. There's enough sex crimes by way of rapes and child sex abuse to be bothered with consenting adults indulging in casual sex.
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I watched Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad'. It was hilarious as they suggested Jeremy drove the tractor dressed just like Adam Ant; velvet coat, the lot.
But it's true, I tell you!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=1176 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=1176)
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I wonder how she defines "normal".
It seems the most risqué was some role playing with him as a farmer and her as milkmaid. Apparently he had to put straw in his hair for effect (or should that be affect). Lol.
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Didn't Jeremy describe his relationship with his parents as normal? Normal, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder imo.
Exactly. Everyone's idea of "normal" is about what it is to them. There are clearly many "normals"
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I watched Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad'. It was hilarious as they suggested Jeremy drove the tractor dressed just like Adam Ant; velvet coat, the lot.
He's alleged to have walked around the village so dressed. It's a look which would have suited him.
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And The Sun hack refers to him as promiscuous. How the hell would he know and who was he to cast judgement about consenting adults?
I wonder if people that make such comments are just ultra conservative perhaps because of how they've been brought up? Jealous? Or they're conflicted in some way?
No idea what they would make of Grindr or Tinder. Mrs Whitehouse must turn in her grave.
I can't think of anything worse than hooking up with some hitherto unknown individual for sex but each to their own. There's enough sex crimes by way of rapes and child sex abuse to be bothered with consenting adults indulging in casual sex.
Hopefully, we've become more accepting since the 80's................OR formed other prejudices!!!!
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But it's true, I tell you!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=1176 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=1176)
I bet that stopped the traffic when he drove between farms!
Some seem to see it as a sign of sexual preference, which is ill-informed and simplistic. Not all New Romantics were homosexual, although some were. Not all Hollywood leading men were, although some were. Not all sportsmen are heterosexual, although those who aren't have tended to pretend they are.
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It seems the most risqué was some role playing with him as a farmer and her as milkmaid. Apparently he had to put straw in his hair for effect (or should that be affect). Lol.
Effect................but I wonder what Affect it had on her!!!
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Hopefully, we've become more accepting since the 80's................OR formed other prejudices!!!!
IMO, we've done both!
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Didn't Jeremy describe his relationship with his parents as normal? Normal, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder imo.
Read his blog. Given your opinion, you might like to explain his rosey accounts?
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Read his blog. Given your opinion, you might like to explain his rosey accounts?
As opposed to who else's accounts?
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
So maybe this is what April was referring to when she mentioned ‘threesomes‘ ?
When did this happen ?
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As opposed to who else's accounts?
And just suppose a. n. others' accounts contradict it? Other than some notes by police -who were subsequently accused of collusion- it's possible there are others which don't agree?
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied to me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
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And just suppose a. n. others' accounts contradict it? Other than some notes by police -who were subsequently accused of collusion- it's possible there are others which don't agree?
I had a quick look and he thought their relationships were OK. Others didn't, but relationships are judged subjectively.
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JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied and to me and he told me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
Another ‘red flag’
‘Why You Should Be Wary of Someone Who Calls Their Ex “Crazy”“In many cases, it’s a warning sign when someone calls their ex "crazy." In some relationships, one partner ends up acting “crazy” because, as a pattern, they have been lied to, controlled, cheated on, or manipulated. Such experiences can cause so much distress and anxiety that the individual becomes overly emotional, stuck in a fight-or-flight response given their intuition that the relationship isn’t emotionally safe. In many cases, it can be the one calling the other “crazy” who is actually fairly disordered.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-is-2020/201911/why-you-should-be-wary-someone-who-calls-their-ex-crazy
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Another ‘red flag’
‘Why You Should Be Wary of Someone Who Calls Their Ex “Crazy”“In many cases, it’s a warning sign when someone calls their ex "crazy." In some relationships, one partner ends up acting “crazy” because, as a pattern, they have been lied to, controlled, cheated on, or manipulated. Such experiences can cause so much distress and anxiety that the individual becomes overly emotional, stuck in a fight-or-flight response given their intuition that the relationship isn’t emotionally safe. In many cases, it can be the one calling the other “crazy” who is actually fairly disordered.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-is-2020/201911/why-you-should-be-wary-someone-who-calls-their-ex-crazy
“If you start dating someone who calls their ex "crazy," it's worth discussing with a therapist or a few trusted friends what such a negative, all-or-nothing characterization says about the person you started dating. Rather than calling their ex "crazy," it would be a healthier sign to hear your date share the following information about the past relationship: “My relationship with my ex wasn’t a good one, and it didn’t meet my needs. I will spare you the details, but there were things so-and-so did that were a problem. I also have to take some accountability for the fact that I voluntarily chose that person in the first place.
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
JM’s witness statement
“He replied that he had had a gay relationship with Ray but that it was a one off and would never happen again. On the same occasion we also discussed Brett. Jeremy asked me why I was not worried about him. I said I had no worries because Brett was so unattractive. Jeremy agreed with me.
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JM’s witness statement
“He replied that he had had a gay relationship with Ray but that it was a one off and would never happen again. On the same occasion we also discussed Brett. Jeremy asked me why I was not worried about him. I said I had no worries because Brett was so unattractive. Jeremy agreed with me.
There were references to ‘homosexual liaisons’ in Simon Hall’s case papers, with several references to Scott Doughty.
According to witness statements some of Halls friends/acquaintances suspected something sexual had gone on between them - many others dismissed it. Hall had a girlfriend at the time.
During Halls murder trial Scott Doughty was asked whether he and Hall had ever ‘kissed on the lips’ - Doughty denied it.
Hall had always denied anything went on between him & Doughty and made a comment about his appearance & asked me if I’d ever seen what he looked like.
Before Hall’s confession in 2013 he disclosed he and Doughty had had a sexual relationship.
Did Scott Doughty lie about his sexual relationship with Simon Hall in order to protect his reputation? Was he afraid his drug dealing activities may be uncovered? Or was it a combination of both?
How was Scott Doughty able to live with the fact he'd lied to police during ther investigation and lied during a murder trial?
How did he feel during those 12 years Simon Hall maintained innocence? Why didn't he speak out publicly? Did he tell his friends what he knew? His mum, his partner etc?
Teenage boys’ sexual assault claims refuted by accused Ipswich man
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/scott-doughty-sexual-assault-trial-begins-1-5708905
Scott Doughty’s home (He & his then partner were living in a pub called the Brickmakers Arms) was raided by police a few months before Halls murder trial. Several items were seized during the raid, including drugs.
Disclosure was never requested on the findings of this by Hall or his defence team/s.
Scott Doughty was a prosecution witness at Simon Halls trial. Based on evidence that came to light Scott Doughty clearly perjured himself by lying under oath.
Did witnesses in Bamber’s murder trial do the same?
Was Charles Marsden ever asked by police about a possible sexual relationship he may have had with Bamber?
Was Brett Collins?
Was ‘Ray’ ever tracked down and interviewed?
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There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
The ‘unhealthy interest’ appears to be nothing more than attempting to understand Bamber as a person
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As opposed to who else's accounts?
Well for starters - you own!
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I watched Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad'. It was hilarious as they suggested Jeremy drove the tractor dressed just like Adam Ant; velvet coat, the lot.
Did Bamber ever make comment over that performance like he did with Freddie Fox and WHF drama series ?
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
Dr Michael Naughton told me after Simon Hall confessed that there had been many ‘behind the scene’ rumours regarding Simon Halls sexuality
Why didn’t he mention it until after Halls guilt had been exposed ?
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JB considered CM a good friend. He was around the same age, local and a computer salesman. He was part of the group that hung out in the local watering holes.
He was also a former boyfriend of JM's close pal Liz Rimington (2 m's?).
Was he a ‘good friend’ or did Bamber find Charles Marsden someone he could easily manipulate ?
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JB considered CM a good friend. He was around the same age, local and a computer salesman. He was part of the group that hung out in the local watering holes.
He was also a former boyfriend of JM's close pal Liz Rimington (2 m's?).
Didn’t JM meet Liz Rimmimgton via Bamber ?
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Did Charles Marsden go by another name ?
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
According to CAL
‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women. The first was Liz Rimmimgton, whose relationship with Malcolm Waters had come to an end. After spending the night with Jeremy, Liz felt ‘terribly guilty’, telling Essex police in 1985 that they were never ‘romantically involved’ and Julie knew nothing about it.
Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
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JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied to me and he told me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged.
So it seems according to Sarah’s witness statement Bamber did have ‘intercourse’ with her & she apparently questioned whether or not she’d been ‘drugged’ ?
Could this be the reason why Bamber labelled Sarah as ‘neurotic’ so as to dismiss her allegations ?
Bamber referred to his sister as ‘narcisstical’ during his interview with Jim Shelly
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So it seems according to Sarah’s witness statement Bamber did have ‘intercourse’ with her & she apparently questioned whether or not she’d been ‘drugged’ ?
Could this be the reason why Bamber labelled Sarah as ‘neurotic’ so as to dismiss her allegations ?
Bamber referred to his sister as ‘narcisstical’ during his interview with Jim Shelly
Aunt Agatha do you recall Bamber referring to Julie or any of his past or present campaign teams members in a similar way?
Or did any of Bamber’s supporters refer to you in this way; which could have come from Bamber ?
Did he ever talk about Sue Ford or Anji Greaves in this manner do you remember ?
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‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women.
Bamber doesn’t appear to have been committed to JM, especially if he was cheating on her since they met (End of Dec 1983) and with so called friends of hers
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Is there a copy of Charles Marsden’s 9th Sept 1985 witness statement on the forum ?
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Aunt Agatha do you recall Bamber referring to Julie or any of his past or present campaign teams members in a similar way?
Or did any of Bamber’s supporters refer to you in this way; which could have come from Bamber ?
Did he ever talk about Sue Ford or Anji Greaves in this manner do you remember ?
Neurotic or narcisstical?
No. He never has.
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Didn’t JM meet Liz Rimmimgton via Bamber ?
They all met at Sloppy Joe's pizza restaurant. JB/JM were waiting staff and LR the manageress. JB housed shared with LR along with the owners of Sloppy Joes: Malcolm Waters and Michael Deckers. LR invited JM to dinner with a view to getting her paired up with JB.
LR had relationships with CM and MW.
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They all met at Sloppy Joe's pizza restaurant. JB/JM were waiting staff and LR the manageress. JB housed shared with LR along with the owners of Sloppy Joes: Malcolm Waters and Michael Deckers. LR invited JM to dinner with a view to getting her paired up with JB.
LR had relationships with CM and MW.
JB and LR had a one night stand (in a tent I believe when JM was in France on teacher training and they went to visit her).
JM supposedly confided in LR about JB murdering his family. The pair travelled from London and went to MW's in Essex where he was told. LR made the call to DS Jones.
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There were references to ‘homosexual liaisons’ in Simon Hall’s case papers, with several references to Scott Doughty.
According to witness statements some of Halls friends/acquaintances suspected something sexual had gone on between them - many others dismissed it. Hall had a girlfriend at the time.
During Halls murder trial Scott Doughty was asked whether he and Hall had ever ‘kissed on the lips’ - Doughty denied it.
Hall had always denied anything went on between him & Doughty and made a comment about his appearance & asked me if I’d ever seen what he looked like.
Before Hall’s confession in 2013 he disclosed he and Doughty had had a sexual relationship.
Scott Doughty’s home (He & his then partner were living in a pub called the Brickmakers Arms) was raided by police a few months before Halls murder trial. Several items were seized during the raid, including drugs.
Disclosure was never requested on the findings of this by Hall or his defence team/s.
Scott Doughty was a prosecution witness at Simon Halls trial. Based on evidence that came to light Scott Doughty clearly perjured himself by lying under oath.
Did witnesses in Bamber’s murder trial do the same?
Was Charles Marsden ever asked by police about a possible sexual relationship he may have had with Bamber?
Was Brett Collins?
Was ‘Ray’ ever tracked down and interviewed?
I suspect most would like the opportunity to bat for the other side. 8(0(*
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I suspect most would like the opportunity to bat for the other side. 8(0(*
I suspect you might be on your own on that one.
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They all met at Sloppy Joe's pizza restaurant. JB/JM were waiting staff and LR the manageress. JB housed shared with LR along with the owners of Sloppy Joes: Malcolm Waters and Michael Deckers. LR invited JM to dinner with a view to getting her paired up with JB.
LR had relationships with CM and MW.
Thought he worked behind the bar ?
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JB and LR had a one night stand (in a tent I believe when JM was in France on teacher training and they went to visit her).
Is this when JM was allegedly raped ?
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Neurotic or narcisstical?
No. He never has.
Did you ever read any of the letters Bamber sent to Mike Tesko ?
I suspect if you were to read through some of his old letters he sent to you you’ll find that he has.
In this letter http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=229.0 he refers to
‘Sponging cranks’
‘[moderated]s’
‘Odious criminals’
‘Fetid vultures’
There’s even a bit where he states,
‘Just be kind to this women and say that my deceased family have asked not to be disturbed through an email I received from mother Theresa who’s now best mates with my mum’
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
JM was asked about their sex life which she described as 'normal'!
I think there were many anti-gay people around in the 1980s, which sadly meant many people tried to hide their sexuality. It’s of no relevance which gender he liked to have sex with: the relevance is — and from what Julie states in her WS’s — he was being deceptive, unfaithful, promiscuous — and wasn’t being honest with her. Remember, that was bang at the time of the onset of AIDS, which mainly affected gay people, so Jeremy was putting Julie — and everyone else he had sex with — at danger. Thankfully, they both dodged that bullet, but nonetheless he was taking a huge risk...
It’s clear going by Julie’s statements that he was cheating on her and having sex with others behind her back, and he was hiding it from her, being deceptive.
Julie saying that their sex life was normal sounds like it was — but she would have been referring to their own sex life as a couple.
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I think there were many anti-gay people around in the 1980s, which sadly meant many people tried to hide their sexuality. It’s of no relevance which gender he liked to have sex with: the relevance is — and from what Julie states in her WS’s — he was being deceptive, unfaithful, promiscuous — and wasn’t being honest with her. Remember, that was bang at the time of the onset of AIDS, which mainly affected gay people, so Jeremy was putting Julie — and everyone else he had sex with — at danger. Thankfully, they both dodged that bullet, but nonetheless he was taking a huge risk...
It’s clear going by Julie’s statements that he was cheating on her and having sex with others behind her back, and he was hiding it from her, being deceptive.
Julie saying that their sex life was normal sounds like it was — but she would have been referring to their own sex life as a couple.
Two of the women he slept with behind JM’s back were her friends Sarah and Liz. Wouldn’t this suggest he manipulated them both & in Sarah’s case - possibly drugged her ?
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So maybe this is what April was referring to when she mentioned ‘threesomes‘ ?
When did this happen ?
I don’t know exactly when that threesome took place, but it was when he was seeing Julie
He was having sex with other people behind her back, and they’re just the ones that came to light. Several people have said how he used to have casual sex/one-night stands when Julie was in Lewisham, so whether they were Male, female or threesomes he was cheating on her
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Two of the women he slept with behind JM’s back were her friends Sarah and Liz. Wouldn’t this suggest he manipulated them both & in Sarah’s case - possibly drugged her ?
I wonder when this was - before or after Julie left her sleeping pills there?
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JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied to me and he told me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
Terrible liar isn’t he — and he has a pattern
He didn’t do it
It was her
She’s neurotic/nuts/mad
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Another ‘red flag’
‘Why You Should Be Wary of Someone Who Calls Their Ex “Crazy”“In many cases, it’s a warning sign when someone calls their ex "crazy." In some relationships, one partner ends up acting “crazy” because, as a pattern, they have been lied to, controlled, cheated on, or manipulated. Such experiences can cause so much distress and anxiety that the individual becomes overly emotional, stuck in a fight-or-flight response given their intuition that the relationship isn’t emotionally safe. In many cases, it can be the one calling the other “crazy” who is actually fairly disordered.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-is-2020/201911/why-you-should-be-wary-someone-who-calls-their-ex-crazy
Oh, that’s absolutely spot on, Nicholas!
Controlling men ALWAYS tell others his wife/girlfriend is mad — they’re so transparent
I’ve noticed how men like that call women neurotic if she isn’t happy being punched in the face by him...
You seldom hear women calling men neurotic...I wonder why?
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Oh, that’s absolutely spot on, Nicholas!
Wondered if Aunt Agatha could relate to this around the time the CT came along?
“In some relationships, one partner ends up acting “crazy” because, as a pattern, they have been lied to, controlled, cheated on, or manipulated. Such experiences can cause so much distress and anxiety that the individual becomes overly emotional, stuck in a fight-or-flight response given their intuition that the relationship isn’t emotionally safe.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-is-2020/201911/why-you-should-be-wary-someone-who-calls-their-ex-crazy
Recall her posting that she was ‘relieved’ when things ended ?
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According to CAL
‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women. The first was Liz Rimmimgton, whose relationship with Malcolm Waters had come to an end. After spending the night with Jeremy, Liz felt ‘terribly guilty’, telling Essex police in 1985 that they were never ‘romantically involved’ and Julie knew nothing about it.
Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
Wasn’t he partial to taking Valium with alcohol to get spaced-out? I wonder if he somehow slipped her a couple to half knock her out? It seems strange she can’t remember hiw she ended up in his bed?😳
And isn’t there something tacky about having sex in a bed while your friend is laying next to you? Why didn’t Charles sleep in the other bedroom...sound so sordid
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According to CAL
‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women. The first was Liz Rimmimgton, whose relationship with Malcolm Waters had come to an end. After spending the night with Jeremy, Liz felt ‘terribly guilty’, telling Essex police in 1985 that they were never ‘romantically involved’ and Julie knew nothing about it.
Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
Wasn’t he partial to taking Valium with alcohol to get spaced-out? I wonder if he somehow slipped her a couple to half knock her out? It seems strange she can’t remember hiw she ended up in his bed?😳
And isn’t there something tacky about having sex in a bed while your friend is laying next to you? Why didn’t Charles sleep in the other bedroom...sound so sordid
Would like to read Charles Marsden’s and Sarah’s witness statement - something’s not adding up
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Wasn’t he partial to taking Valium with alcohol to get spaced-out? I wonder if he somehow slipped her a couple to half knock her out? It seems strange she can’t remember hiw she ended up in his bed?😳
And isn’t there something tacky about having sex in a bed while your friend is laying next to you? Why didn’t Charles sleep in the other bedroom...sound so sordid
I recall reading somewhere where it’s said Bamber tossed away some drugs ?
Do you believe he’d do that - I don’t
Didn’t they originally belong to JM or someone or other ?
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Bamber doesn’t appear to have been committed to JM, especially if he was cheating on her since they met (End of Dec 1983) and with so called friends of hers
He certainly didn’t seem to be head over heels in love with her, did he?
Everyone knows that when you fall in love you aren’t even attracted to anyone else — you’re in that passionate “honeymoon” phase which usually lasts about three years, and then the “lovesick butterflies” subside and you settle down (or break up, depending)
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He certainly didn’t seem to be head over heels in love with her, did he?
Everyone knows that when you fall in love you aren’t even attracted to anyone else — you’re in that passionate “honeymoon” phase which usually lasts about three years, and then the “lovesick butterflies” subside and you settle down (or break up, depending)
According to Rick Fulks
‘Every relationship goes through dating stages. There are five to be exact.
Stage One: Attraction and Romance
All couples experience this phase. It occurs when you are beginning to get to know each other; it's a main dating step to go through. It might also be called the fantasy phase or honeymoon stage because your partner can seem perfect during this time. How long this phase lasts varies, but it can be anywhere from a few months to about two years. On average, phase one lasts about three months. This stage is a lot of fun but is not sustainable. People who are constantly changing partners are often trying to remain in this stage. Highlights of this stage of love include:
Focusing on your similarities and ignoring flaws - Biological forces take over causing you to only see the good.
Spending a lot of time together - You are in love, after all, and you can't imagine being apart from your lover.
Conflict avoidance - Conflict is not only avoided in this stage but seems like it will never happen at all.
Stage Two: Reality Sets In
This stage often will begin to creep in slowly during your relationship, but will sometimes happen all at once. The reality phase typically lasts about six months, or as long as it takes for both of you to decide you want to stay together. This is often where relationships end because one person decides they've made a selection mistake. If you can accept each other's flaws, you can progress to the next level. In this stage of healthy relationships:
You start to see flaws in your partner or behaviors you just don't like. It's not that you are no longer in love, but your partner doesn't seem as great as he or she was in stage one.
Biology is fighting against you. The romance stage features many endorphins running through your body that gives you that "high" sensation. Your body can't keep this up forever, and so in this stage your elation begins to level off.
You wonder if you are still in love. The relationship doesn't seem like as much of a fantasy as before.
Stage Three: Disappointment
What began as reality setting in during stage two often turns to disappointment in stage three. Couples at this stage spend about a year working out their differences in an effort to get to a place of stability. If you're able to communicate in healthy ways and see positive progress, you're likely to move to the next phase. The problems presented here are:
As a couple you believe that arguments are bad, but you are angry at each other anyway.
Some of the anger can be over trivial things such as small differences between you.
Since you don't realize that conflict can be healthy, you wonder if this relationship is doomed. In fact, you likely have thoughts of breaking up or getting divorced.
Without strong communication, trust, and the ability to work as a team, couples are unlikely to advance past this stage.
Stage Four: Stability
If a couple can navigate through the unstable waters of stage three, they will find stage four offers much rest and enjoyment. Couples spend roughly two years feeling stable before progressing into the final stage of commitment. Make efforts to spice up your standard life together to keep the spark alive.
As a couple, you now have history together, and you have been able to work through some differences.
The fantasy of stage one is completely gone, but you have accepted this. Yes, you have differences and you sometimes fight, but you love your partner, feel connected to him or her, and you trust you can work through any future conflicts.
You may, however, feel a little bored at times as the chase is definitely over.
You may also miss the stage one feelings and wonder if those feelings can be found in someone else.
Stage Five: Commitment
Few couples make it this far, even couples who are married. In this stage, you are truly a team and have progressed through the five stages of love. If dating, this is the stage where you can get married and feel comfortable with that decision. It is a stage of mature and sustainable love that lasts forever in an ideal world for happy couples. Milestones include:
You have chosen to be with your partner, flaws and all.
You no longer miss the romance stage because that would mean being with a new person and you don't want that.
You have a vision for the future together as a couple.
https://dating.lovetoknow.com/Five_Stages_in_a_Relationship
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Did you ever read any of the letters Bamber sent to Mike Tesko ?
I suspect if you were to read through some of his old letters he sent to you you’ll find that he has.
In this letter http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=229.0 he refers to
‘Sponging cranks’
‘[moderated]s’
‘Odious criminals’
‘Fetid vultures’
There’s even a bit where he states,
‘Just be kind to this women and say that my deceased family have asked not to be disturbed through an email I received from mother Theresa who’s now best mates with my mum’
Did Mike Tesko tell the woman that, in his slow whispering Brando style voice?
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Two of the women he slept with behind JM’s back were her friends Sarah and Liz. Wouldn’t this suggest he manipulated them both & in Sarah’s case - possibly drugged her ?
Talk about doing it on your own doorstep 😐
Sarah’s case sounds very dodgy to me...
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Did Mike Tesko tell the woman that, in his slow whispering Brando style voice?
This one you mean https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo
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Did Mike Tesko tell the woman that, in his slow whispering Brando style voice?
Maybe he changed it up for her
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Talk about doing it on your own doorstep 😐
Sarah’s case sounds very dodgy to me...
Somethings not adding up is it ?
According to CAL
‘Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
Doubt Charles Marsden’s would have admitted to having had a sexual liaison with Bamber to police do you?
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I wonder when this was - before or after Julie left her sleeping pills there?
The fact Sarah had no idea how she’d ended up in the bed , and then woke to find Jeremy having sex with her proves she was asleep/unconscious/drugged/something...and he would have known that. So he was having sex without her consent.
Certainly sounds strange...just like date-rape drugs.
Julie’s sleeping pills may have been there, or his Valium...
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Would like to read Charles Marsden’s and Sarah’s witness statement - something’s not adding up
Are there any witness statements, do you know?
Although I bet CM didn’t touch on the sex side of things
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The fact Sarah had no idea how she’d ended up in the bed , and then woke to find Jeremy having sex with her proves she was asleep/unconscious/drugged/something...and he would have knows that. So he was having sex without her consent.
Certainly sounds strange...just like date-rape drugs.
Julie’s sleeping pills may have been there, or his Valium...
Do you think Charles Marsden had told police he went to bed and left Bamber and the girl downstairs ?
‘Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking.
Am presuming CAL took the above from his WS ?
Maybe the following came from Sarah’s statement ?
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them;
This bit must have come from Marsden’s statement
‘he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex
Suppose Bamber could have drugged her then carried her up to bed where Marsden was sleeping - but why take her upstairs to a bed with Marsden in it - why not stay downstairs ?
What happens after Marsden wakes up to find them having sex ? Did he take himself out of the situation ?
Something doesn’t add up as I’ve said
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I recall reading somewhere where it’s said Bamber tossed away some drugs ?
Do you believe he’d do that - I don’t
Didn’t they originally belong to JM or someone or other ?
I’ve read quite a few times how he loved taking Valium with alcohol; Julie said she asked him why he did it and he said he enjoyed the sensation. Which means he was probably being prescribed them by his GP — so if that’s the case why was his GP prescribing them to him? Did JB lie to get them, or was he suffering from something that required them?
I think the sleeping pills were Tramadol, which are more like super strong tranquillisers.
I certainly don’t believe he’d have thrown them away. Why would he? You’d just leave them in a cupboard and forget about them,
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Somethings not adding up is it ?
Doubt Charles Marsden’s would have admitted to having had a sexual liaison with Bamber to police do you?
sickening and concerning if true.
why did the police not push this further?
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Are there ant witness statements, do you know?
Although I bet CM didn’t touch on the sex side of things
Don’t recall reading them and no idea if Mike Tesko ever posted them ?
Re Charles Marsden
CAL states,
‘both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on‘
That reads to me Marsden didn’t have sex with Sarah
It’s not clear whether what Julie stated in her WS occurred or not
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This one you mean https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo
(&^&
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sickening and concerning if true.
why did the police not push this further?
Maybe someone should find out ?
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sickening and concerning if true.
why did the police not push this further?
Sarah may not have wanted to pursue it further ?
Bamber was facing 5 murder charges
It’s indeed concerning
And the police should have followed it up
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This one you mean https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo
Wonder if any one of Bamber’s supporters have recorded this and sent it to Bamber to listen to ?
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Do you think Charles Marsden had told police he went to bed and left Bamber and the girl downstairs ?
‘Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking.
Am presuming CAL took the above from his WS ?
Maybe the following came from Sarah’s statement ?
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them;
This bit must have come from Marsden’s statement
‘he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex
Suppose Bamber could have drugged her then carried her up to bed where Marsden was sleeping - but why take her upstairs to a bed with Marsden in it - why not stay downstairs ?
What happens after Marsden wakes up to find them having sex ? Did he take himself out of the situation ?
Something doesn’t add up as I’ve said
That sounds HIGHLY suspicious to me
As you say, why didn’t Jeremy have sex with Sarah downstairs after CM had gone up to the bed?
Why would he take her into that bed?
There’s something VERY suspicious about that
I’d guess she was totally “out of it” and he guided her upstairs while she was leaning on him, almost collapsed
He must have undressed her and put her on the bed — and there’s no way CM wouldn’t have woken up. That’s if he WAS actually asleep...who knows if he was going to get on top her after Jeremy finished?!
Those statements don’t add up at all
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That sounds HIGHLY suspicious to me
As you say, why didn’t Jeremy have sex with Sarah downstairs after CM had gone up to the bed?
Why would he take her into that bed?
There’s something VERY suspicious about that
I’d guess she was totally “out of it” and he guided her upstairs while she was leaning on him, almost collapsed
He must have undressed her and put her on the bed — and there’s no way CM wouldn’t have woken up. That’s if he WAS actually asleep...who knows if he was going to get on top her after Jeremy finished?!
Those statements don’t add up at all
They don’t do they
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Sarah may not have wanted to pursue it further ?
Bamber was facing 5 murder charges
It’s indeed concerning
Ive skimmed over what you have posted over the last 48 hrs, but have read everything, all the links you've left and I am hoping to God this is not true or that I'm seeing a pattern with these women.
I look forward to reading more from your discoveries.
Looking forward is not really the right thing to say is it? *&^^&
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That sounds HIGHLY suspicious to me
As you say, why didn’t Jeremy have sex with Sarah downstairs after CM had gone up to the bed?
Why would he take her into that bed?
There’s something VERY suspicious about that
I’d guess she was totally “out of it” and he guided her upstairs while she was leaning on him, almost collapsed
He must have undressed her and put her on the bed — and there’s no way CM wouldn’t have woken up. That’s if he WAS actually asleep...who knows if he was going to get on top her after Jeremy finished?!
Those statements don’t add up at all
Pls don't go into detail...it's vile!
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Don’t recall reading them and no idea if Mike Tesko ever posted them ?
Re Charles Marsden
CAL states,
‘both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on‘
That reads to me Marsden didn’t have sex with Sarah
It’s not clear whether what Julie stated in her WS occurred or not
Yes, Sarah said just Jeremy started caressing her while CM was laying next to them
She then said she saw Jeremy and CM fondling each other and that’s when she got up and left
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That sounds HIGHLY suspicious to me
As you say, why didn’t Jeremy have sex with Sarah downstairs after CM had gone up to the bed?
Why would he take her into that bed?
There’s something VERY suspicious about that
I’d guess she was totally “out of it” and he guided her upstairs while she was leaning on him, almost collapsed
He must have undressed her and put her on the bed — and there’s no way CM wouldn’t have woken up. That’s if he WAS actually asleep...who knows if he was going to get on top her after Jeremy finished?!
Those statements don’t add up at all
Bamber could have carried her upstairs?
He must have undressed her - it reads as though she woke up to him having intercourse with her?
Still don’t understand why he’d have taken her upstairs and put her in bed with CM - even if he were allegedly asleep?
Would he want to risk waking CM if he was up to no good - as it appears he may well have been?
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Yes, Sarah said just Jeremy started caressing her while CM was laying next to them
She then said she saw Jeremy and CM fondling each other and that’s when she got up and left
Thank you very much Ispy - we can read! it doesn't require you constantly repeating it.
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Yes, Sarah said just Jeremy started caressing her while CM was laying next to them
She then said she saw Jeremy and CM fondling each other and that’s when she got up and left
And we know Bamber lied to Julie from her WS
JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied to me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
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Bamber could have carried upstairs?
He must have undressed her - it reads as though she woke up to him having intercourse with her?
Still don’t understand why he’d have taken her upstairs and put her in bed with CM - even if he were allegedly asleep?
Would he want to risk waking CM if he was up to no good - as it appears he may well have been?
He had more than one bedroom in the property. It doesn't sit right. Uncomfortable reading.
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Yes, Sarah said just Jeremy started caressing her while CM was laying next to them
She then said she saw Jeremy and CM fondling each other and that’s when she got up and left
Yep it’s here
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
The excerpts from Julie’s statements can be read here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg592331#msg592331
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Bamber could have carried upstairs?
He must have undressed her - it reads as though she woke up to him having intercourse with her?
Still don’t understand why he’d have taken her upstairs and put her in bed with CM - even if he were allegedly asleep?
Would he want to risk waking CM if he was up to no good - as it appears he may well have been?
Exactly
Why would JB take/carry/guide her upstairs when he could have had sex with her in the sofa? Or the floor?
You’d what privacy too...
CM must have seen Jeremy taking her clothes off after he put her on the bed..as if he slept through the noises, movements etc? He’d have woken when Jeremy brought her in the room...and certainly when she flopped heavily onto the bed, which she must have done
I bet CM was awake all through it
It sounds pre-planned
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Yep it’s here
This is from CAL's book. We haven't seen all the witness statements purporting to support her writings.
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Exactly
Why would JB take/carry/guide her upstairs when he could have had sex with her in the sofa? Or the floor?
You’d what privacy too...
CM must have seen Jeremy taking her clothes off after he put her on the bed..as if he slept through the noises, movements etc? He’d have woken when Jeremy brought her in the room...and certainly when she flopped heavily onto the bed, which she must have done
I bet CM was awake all through it
It sounds pre-planned
You need to stick with the facts...keep your own imaginations out of it.
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Exactly
Why would JB take/carry/guide her upstairs when he could have had sex with her in the sofa? Or the floor?
You’d what privacy too...
CM must have seen Jeremy taking her clothes off after he put her on the bed..as if he slept through the noises, movements etc? He’d have woken when Jeremy brought her in the room...and certainly when she flopped heavily onto the bed, which she must have done
I bet CM was awake all through it
It sounds pre-planned
Without seeing the statements or reading CAL‘s book - can’t work out how she’s interpreted this bit but
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic.
How did Sarah/the girl hear ‘that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode ?
‘Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome’
Did Bamber tell Sarah he’d told Julie ?
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The fact Sarah had no idea how she’d ended up in the bed , and then woke to find Jeremy having sex with her proves she was asleep/unconscious/drugged/something...and he would have known that. So he was having sex without her consent.
Certainly sounds strange...just like date-rape drugs.
Julie’s sleeping pills may have been there, or his Valium...
That’s how it reads to me
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Pls don't go into detail...it's vile!
You posted something recently about Bamber not being 11 years-old when he was allegedly sexually abused by older boys at Gresham’s
This 1989 article https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html from the New York Times by Daniel Goleman states,
‘Studies also now indicate that about one-third of people who are abused in childhood will become abusers themselves. This is a lower percentage than many experts had expected, but obviously poses a major social challenge. The research also confirms that abuse in childhood increases the likelihood in adulthood of problems ranging from depression and alcoholism to sexual maladjustment and multiple personality.
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This is from CAL's book. We haven't seen all the witness statements purporting to support her writings.
CAL’s seen the WS and I’ve no reason to doubt her integrity
Someone posted a link from you tube about her work re Anne Frank - think it was Steve UK on blue
She’s meticulous Aunt Agatha
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CAL’s seen the WS and I’ve no reason to doubt her integrity
Someone posted a link from you tube about her work re Anne Frank - think it was Steve UK on blue
She’s meticulous Aunt Agatha
She may be... But we cannot support it.
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She may be... But we cannot support it.
Who is this ‘we’ you keep banging on about?
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She may be... But we cannot support it.
I support her work and know of many others who do too
If you’ve not read any of her work how can you possibly say you ‘cannot support it’ ?
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Exactly
Why would JB take/carry/guide her upstairs when he could have had sex with her in the sofa? Or the floor?
You’d what privacy too...
CM must have seen Jeremy taking her clothes off after he put her on the bed..as if he slept through the noises, movements etc? He’d have woken when Jeremy brought her in the room...and certainly when she flopped heavily onto the bed, which she must have done
I bet CM was awake all through it
It sounds pre-planned
Holly seems to believe Julie re Bamber and Marsden
LR had relationships with MW, Charles Marsden and a one night stand with JB.
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And here’s a thread Holly started over on blue re Charles Marsden http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3878.msg159278.html#msg159278
Charles Marsden
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:PM »
Steve_uk has asked posters to rate the credibility of Charles Marsden as a *prosecution witness but I've noticed that many posters have no idea who CM is. So for those in doubt I've taken all the info verbatim from Wilkes' book. Charles Marsden was the boyfriend of JM's friend, Liz Rimmington. And although CM was interviewed by the police I don't believe he was actually a *prosecution witness?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
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Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
But Bamber’s new girlfriend wasn’t Virginia Greaves, it was her sister Anji - so how and why did Roger Wilkes make the mistake of writing this?
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Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Isn’t it interesting how Bamber appears to have turned to Charles Marsden only the day after the murders.
Wonder what they talked about for an hour?
Where was Julie, who he appeared to need the morning before?
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'During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his.'
-----------
This matches Julie's WS.
Too many problems in burning down WHF. It would have to be a big fire to reach three different rooms. Probably destroying WHF. Valuable uninsured items in WHF would be destroyed.
It is a big house & options to escape or hide if people woke. Unless Bamber tried to ensure the fire spread quickly. He then risked investigators concluding it was arson. Meaning Bamber would get no insurance payment and risked the chance of being a suspect.
Houses nearby, such as the Foakes's may also spot the fire early on.
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Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences.
Or were they simply looking for answers following the revelations of JM & Sarah’s admissions ?
They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women.
Did Bamber tell Wilkes this or Charles Marsden? Or is this Roger Wilkes own interpretation?
Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women.
Did any of these other alleged ‘one-night stands’ come forward to the police after reading about Bamber’s arrest for murder?
Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further.
Seems obvious here Roger Wilkes wasn’t aware of Sarah’s testimony
But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session.
I bet he was
And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
But why didn’t he get up when he’d ‘been awoken by movement in the bed’?
There’s definitely far more to this Charles Marsden/Bamber story - things aren’t adding up - or are they
‘The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
Did Bamber really walk this girl home and was it during this alleged walk home that he told Sarah he’d told Julie?
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'During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his.'
-----------
This matches Julie's WS.
Too many problems in burning down WHF. It would have to be a big fire to reach three different rooms. Probably destroying WHF. Valuable uninsured items in WHF would be destroyed.
It is a big house & options to escape if people woke. Unless Bamber tried to ensure the fire spread quickly. He then risked investigators concluding it was arson. Meaning Bamber would get no insurance.
Hi Adam, good to see you 8((()*/
It does indeed !
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Hi Adam, good to see you 8((()*/
It does indeed !
Thanks. The forum has got busy.
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Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
From CAL
‘Jeremy and Brett returned to Goldhanger the following day. When Charles Marsden joined them for dinner Jeremy told them he had broken up with Julie, implying that her dislike of Brett was a factor. Charles recalls that the main topic of conversation ‘was that Brett and Jeremy were going to sell the cottage. Jeremy spoke of a girl Virginia, who was going to move in with him.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=charles+marsden+goldhanger&source=bl&ots=jQISJ_DezX&sig=ACfU3U386bFVeKWt5Tzj4V1oTzCVOxzg0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgk62q38bpAhVGaRUIHY6CDFMQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20goldhanger&f=false
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I’ve read quite a few times how he loved taking Valium with alcohol; Julie said she asked him why he did it and he said he enjoyed the sensation. Which means he was probably being prescribed them by his GP — so if that’s the case why was his GP prescribing them to him? Did JB lie to get them, or was he suffering from something that required them?
I think the sleeping pills were Tramadol, which are more like super strong tranquillisers.
I certainly don’t believe he’d have thrown them away. Why would he? You’d just leave them in a cupboard and forget about them,
From CAL re Julie’s evidence,
‘She was privy to his first murder plot, which involved him staying at the farm for,drinks and leaving his car at Goldhanger: ‘Whilst with his family he would slip sleeping pills into their drinks then when they retired for the night he would go home, returning a short while later. He would then enter the house via an open sash window. Then he would set fire to the house using alcohol spirit as this would not have been traceable.
‘He said he would go there for supper in the evening and put something in their drinks to make them sleep well and would then shoot them all and afterwards set fire to the house using gin or vodka.
‘I remember that he said that he would use his mothers sleeping pills to put in the drinks as she was taking them at this time
‘Coincidentally, on 29th October 1984, Julie was prescribed ten days worth of temazepam tablets by her doctor at Goldsmiths Colleges medical centre. Recommended for short term treatment of insomnia, the tablets were to calm Julie during a stressful time during her work placement at a primary school in Kent. She showed Jeremy the pills when she brought them with her to Goldhanger the following weekend, leaving them at the cottage without having taken any. A few days later he telephoned her: ‘He was going to take some of the pills I had bought him. For some reason or other he had it in his mind that I had bought the pills especially for him so he could use them on his parents.’ This is not true and I had no idea why he should think this. He told me that he was going to take some of the pills to see what effect they had on him and if they tasted in drink.‘ He told her the pills were useless and didn’t have the desired effect.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=charles+marsden+goldhanger&source=bl&ots=jQISJ_DezX&sig=ACfU3U386bFVeKWt5Tzj4V1oTzCVOxzg0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgk62q38bpAhVGaRUIHY6CDFMQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20goldhanger&f=false
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The fact Sarah had no idea how she’d ended up in the bed , and then woke to find Jeremy having sex with her proves she was asleep/unconscious/drugged/something...and he would have known that. So he was having sex without her consent.
Certainly sounds strange...just like date-rape drugs.
Julie’s sleeping pills may have been there, or his Valium...
Suspect this is what he may have slipped into Sarah’s drink/s.
Would be interested to know if the date of Julie leaving the temazepam at the cottage preceded the date Sarah went back with him and Marsden
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Looking back on these decade old documents it's interesting to see how some police officers and the likes of RWB were anti gay. I'm sure most who were anti were just that but maybe some were conflicted and JB aroused uncomfortable thoughts.
There appears to have been an unhealthy interest preoccupation with JB's sexuality.
JM was asked about their sex life which she described as 'normal'!
Maybe it’s you with the ‘unhealthy interest’ Holly ?
Have got a strong suspicion this ‘preoccupation’ may all stem from Sarah’s evidence and what she claimed happened to her back at Bamber’s cottage
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And The Sun hack refers to him as promiscuous. How the hell would he know and who was he to cast judgement about consenting adults?
I wonder if people that make such comments are just ultra conservative perhaps because of how they've been brought up? Jealous? Or they're conflicted in some way?
No idea what they would make of Grindr or Tinder. Mrs Whitehouse must turn in her grave.
I can't think of anything worse than hooking up with some hitherto unknown individual for sex but each to their own. There's enough sex crimes by way of rapes and child sex abuse to be bothered with consenting adults indulging in casual sex.
But Sarah doesn’t appear to have been a consenting adult Holly ?!
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JM”s witness statement
“When Jeremy returned from the farm that lunchtime I asked him why he lied to me and he told me he had not and that Sarah was neurotic and fancied him and wanted to sleep with him”
And according to Charles Marsden Bamber walked Sarah home the following morning
Para 6.
But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
In JM’s statement here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg592331#msg592331 she says,
‘Sarah being extremely upset got up, dressed and left the house
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Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
Who did Charles Marsden call - Bamber ?
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But Bamber’s new girlfriend wasn’t Virginia Greaves, it was her sister Anji - so how and why did Roger Wilkes make the mistake of writing this?
Initially it was Virginia Greaves.
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Initially it was Virginia Greaves.
Not around the time of the murders it wasn’t
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Pls don't go into detail...it's vile!
What’s ‘vile’ about it AA ?
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But Bamber’s new girlfriend wasn’t Virginia Greaves, it was her sister Anji - so how and why did Roger Wilkes make the mistake of writing this?
I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
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I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
Are you claiming Bamber was sexually active with and dating both Virginia and her sister Anji after the murders?
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VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay.
Where can I read this?
Anji Greaves apparently lived in Kensington, why didn’t she move in with her sister?
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I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
What witness statement of Bamber’s does he claim this ?
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I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
According to Charles Marsden, following the murders Bamber’s new girlfriend was Virginia Greaves and he planned to move her into SC’s flat with him
But Anji Greaves told the Sun after Bamber was convicted it was her Bamber was seeing not Virginia !
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I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
‘Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive’
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I've already told you Nicholas! VG was working in London and looking for somewhere to stay. JB made the offer of SC's flat. I believe the mirror smashing incident came about when JB was on the phone to VG talking about the flat.
People lie Holly for all kinds of reasons
I’ve not seen Virginia Greaves witness statement nor her sister Anji’s but it’s pretty obvious Bamber was lying - again
We don’t know who Bamber was talking to on the night Julie threw the Chinese trick box at the mirror - Virginia could have lied to police to protect her sister?
Then again, it could have been Virginia phoning on behalf of her sister and she planned to pass the receiver to Anji so that she (Anji) could talk to her boyfriend?
Virginia Greaves evidence appears to be a red herring
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Sarah being extremely upset got up, dressed and left the house
But no mention of leaving the house with Bamber in order for him to walk her home ?
What does Sarah’s witness statement say ?
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Do you think Charles Marsden had told police he went to bed and left Bamber and the girl downstairs ?
‘Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking.
Am presuming CAL took the above from his WS ?
Maybe the following came from Sarah’s statement ?
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them;
This bit must have come from Marsden’s statement
‘he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex
Suppose Bamber could have drugged her then carried her up to bed where Marsden was sleeping - but why take her upstairs to a bed with Marsden in it - why not stay downstairs ?
What happens after Marsden wakes up to find them having sex ? Did he take himself out of the situation ?
Something doesn’t add up as I’ve said
Marsden claimed to have left the cottage after Bamber had allegedly walked Sarah home
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That sounds HIGHLY suspicious to me
As you say, why didn’t Jeremy have sex with Sarah downstairs after CM had gone up to the bed?
Why would he take her into that bed?
There’s something VERY suspicious about that
I’d guess she was totally “out of it” and he guided her upstairs while she was leaning on him, almost collapsed
He must have undressed her and put her on the bed — and there’s no way CM wouldn’t have woken up. That’s if he WAS actually asleep...who knows if he was going to get on top her after Jeremy finished?!
Those statements don’t add up at all
According to Marsden he did wake up
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Yes, Sarah said just Jeremy started caressing her while CM was laying next to them
She then said she saw Jeremy and CM fondling each other and that’s when she got up and left
Sarah appears to have told Julie this but what did she tell police ?
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He had more than one bedroom in the property. It doesn't sit right. Uncomfortable reading.
If Bamber had more than one bedroom why did he take the girl to bed where Charles Marsden was allegedly sleeping ?
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This is from CAL's book. We haven't seen all the witness statements purporting to support her writings.
CAL was given access to original police documents AA - she’s hardly going to make it up
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Initially it was Virginia Greaves.
Why was Bamber lying to Charles Marsden that his new girlfriend was Virginia when we know from Anji’s interview following his conviction it was her not her sister ?
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CAL was given access to original police documents AA - she’s hardly going to make it up
I cannot accept that, as this is quite disturbing too, that Jeremy supposedly date raped a woman, next to his sleeping friend who woke up during the said rape.
Its despicable and it needs further investigation.
If the evidence backed this up, then I would definitely review my position.
However, stating that. I am of the belief, 99.99% that Julie lied, throughout her testamony.
These are very serious accusations and if wrong, I would expect JB or the CT to be following this up.
This could damage his support network and the CT need to do everything within its power to dismiss these claims,as unreliable at the very least.
I do not visit the CT site, therefore I am serious when I ask 'Have they done this?'
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If Bamber had more than one bedroom why did he take the girl to bed where Charles Marsden was allegedly sleeping ?
Perhaps it was his fantasy? Having sex whilst being watched by someone who was pretending to be asleep? Could explain why he needed to drug her? Jeremy and Charles may even have talked about doing it?
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I cannot accept that, as this is quite disturbing too, that Jeremy supposedly date raped a woman, next to his sleeping friend who woke up during the said rape.
Its despicable and it needs further investigation.
If the evidence backed this up, then I would definitely review my position.
However, stating that. I am of the belief, 99.99% that Julie lied, throughout her testamony.
These are very serious accusations and if wrong, I would expect JB or the CT to be following this up.
This could damage his support network and the CT need to do everything within its power to dismiss these claims,as unreliable at the very least.
I do not visit the CT site, therefore I am serious when I ask 'Have they done this?'
But this incident doesn’t involve Julie AA
Bamber lied to her and told her he hadn’t slept with Sarah
Sarah said they had
Charles Marsden appears to have been witness to this
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Perhaps it was his fantasy? Having sex whilst being watched by someone who was pretending to be asleep? Could explain why he needed to drug her?
No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
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Perhaps it was his fantasy? Having sex whilst being watched by someone who was pretending to be asleep? Could explain why he needed to drug her? Jeremy and Charles may even have talked about doing it?
If he drugged her it would surely be about power and control ?
Wouldn’t Marsden have noticed the state she was in ?
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Marsden claimed to have left the cottage after Bamber had allegedly walked Sarah home
In fact Bamber returned to the cottage after allegedly walking Sarah home and it is at this point Marsden leaves the cottage
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From CAL re Julie’s evidence,
‘She was privy to his first murder plot, which involved him staying at the farm for,drinks and leaving his car at Goldhanger: ‘Whilst with his family he would slip sleeping pills into their drinks then when they retired for the night he would go home, returning a short while later. He would then enter the house via an open sash window. Then he would set fire to the house using alcohol spirit as this would not have been traceable.
‘He said he would go there for supper in the evening and put something in their drinks to make them sleep well and would then shoot them all and afterwards set fire to the house using gin or vodka.
‘I remember that he said that he would use his mothers sleeping pills to put in the drinks as she was taking them at this time
‘Coincidentally, on 29th October 1984, Julie was prescribed ten days worth of temazepam tablets by her doctor at Goldsmiths Colleges medical centre. Recommended for short term treatment of insomnia, the tablets were to calm Julie during a stressful time during her work placement at a primary school in Kent. She showed Jeremy the pills when she brought them with her to Goldhanger the following weekend, leaving them at the cottage without having taken any. A few days later he telephoned her: ‘He was going to take some of the pills I had bought him. For some reason or other he had it in his mind that I had bought the pills especially for him so he could use them on his parents.’ This is not true and I had no idea why he should think this. He told me that he was going to take some of the pills to see what effect they had on him and if they tasted in drink.‘ He told her the pills were useless and didn’t have the desired effect.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=charles+marsden+goldhanger&source=bl&ots=jQISJ_DezX&sig=ACfU3U386bFVeKWt5Tzj4V1oTzCVOxzg0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgk62q38bpAhVGaRUIHY6CDFMQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20goldhanger&f=false
Have not read CAL’s book and therefore can only interpret what she’s written here about Julie based on the excerpts
Not sure I agree with CAL’s interpretation nor the angle she’s chosen to present this
Can see how with hindsight it may appear Julie ‘was privy to his first murder plot‘ but doubt very much Julie would have even considered it at the time
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No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
Auntie A, I'm not suggesting it WAS so. I'm saying it MAY have been. There'd have been a side to Jeremy he'd never have dreamed of revealing to you, ie the alcohol and silly ciggie fuelled, testosterone king he was with his mates. That Charles went up first and chose to lay down on Jeremy's bed when another was available suggests this COULD be something they'd plotted between them.
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No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
Why did Bamber allegedly take the girl upstairs to bed with Marsden AA when they could have remained downstairs?
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Auntie A, I'm not suggesting it WAS so. I'm saying it MAY have been. There'd have been a side to Jeremy he'd never have dreamed of revealing to you, ie the alcohol and silly ciggie fuelled, testosterone king he was with his mates. That Charles went up first and chose to lay down on Jeremy's bed when another was available suggests this COULD be something they'd plotted between them.
There was another girl and her mother at the Chequers with Sarah but she went back to Bamber’s cottage on her own apparently. Wonder if the police ever interviewed the other girl and her mother ?
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It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
Come on AA
Read the available material
This story does not add up
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According to CAL
‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women. The first was Liz Rimmimgton, whose relationship with Malcolm Waters had come to an end. After spending the night with Jeremy, Liz felt ‘terribly guilty’, telling Essex police in 1985 that they were never ‘romantically involved’ and Julie knew nothing about it.
Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
I don’t necessarily agree with CAL’s interpretation on the evidence but there’s no getting away from the fact it appears the girl in question ‘wondered whether she had been drugged’ & ‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse‘
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I cannot accept that, as this is quite disturbing too, that Jeremy supposedly date raped a woman, next to his sleeping friend who woke up during the said rape.
Its despicable and it needs further investigation.
If the evidence backed this up, then I would definitely review my position.
However, stating that. I am of the belief, 99.99% that Julie lied, throughout her testamony.
These are very serious accusations and if wrong, I would expect JB or the CT to be following this up.
This could damage his support network and the CT need to do everything within its power to dismiss these claims,as unreliable at the very least.
I do not visit the CT site, therefore I am serious when I ask 'Have they done this?'
It turned out Simon Hall and Jamie Barker had burgled a business premises on the same night he murdered Joan Albert. This fact didn’t become known to me until Nov 2012 - 11 years after the murder.
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There was another girl and her mother at the Chequers with Sarah but she went back to Bamber’s cottage on her own apparently. Wonder if the police ever interviewed the other girl and her mother ?
I concur that there's obviously a background to the immediacy of the words in print, but what does it have to do with Jeremy's conviction?
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It turned out Simon Hall and Jamie Barker had burgled a business premises on the same night he murdered Joan Albert. This fact didn’t become known to me until Nov 2012 - 11 years after the murder.
On the night I was made aware of this fact I contacted Halls mother who eventually admitted she knew about it, as some of the stolen goods had ended up in her back garden but she told me she would deny it and call me a liar if it ever got out.
I relayed this ‘omission’ to Dr Michael Naughton & Gabe Tan who said they eventually spoke with Lynne Hall and she didn’t deny it but they both refused to put anything in writing to me or anyone else as far as I know nor did they ever disclose what had been discussed by them all.
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Why did Bamber allegedly take the girl upstairs to bed with Marsden AA when they could have remained downstairs?
I have no idea, well I do but it cannot be substantiated unless you get Bamber on here and allow him to answer these questions.
The longer its taking for him to reply, the more I feel he has the CT scrutinising us all, especially me.
Am i trying to trap him? No! Most definately not. I believe, wholeheartedly he did not kill his family.
If he says he won't do it - then I shall Appeal that decision.
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No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
This has nothing to do with Bamber’s sexuality AA and everything to do with the fact that Bamber, and his friend, may have drugged and raped a girl they picked up at the Chequers ?
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I concur that there's obviously a background to the immediacy of the words in print, but what does it have to do with Jeremy's conviction?
I’d say a whole lot
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I’d say a whole lot
If a crime was committed, is he A) going to admit it, B) is the woman who was the girl concerned likely to come forward?
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If a crime was committed, is he A) going to admit it, B) is the woman who was the girl concerned likely to come forward?
Based on what I’ve read the girl came forward 35 years ago
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Not around the time of the murders it wasn’t
VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her and she was obviously open to it until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama and may not have even know about Julie until then. Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him.
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VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her and she was obviously open to it until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama and may not have even know about Julie until then. Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him.
Is this a passage from CAL’s book?
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VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her and she was obviously open to it until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama and may not have even know about Julie until then. Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him.
According to Anji (Angela) Greaves Bamber went to her flat in Kensington and made a pass at her - 2 days after the funerals: ergo 18th August 1985
They apparently spent 25 days of passion together before he was remanded in prison (The Sun 29th Oct 1986)
The header read, ‘I loved Bambi Beast’
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VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her and she was obviously open to it until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama and may not have even know about Julie until then. Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him.
Was Virginia aware of her and her sister relationship with Bamber ?
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According to Anji (Angela) Greaves Bamber went to her flat in Kensington and made a pass at her - 2 days after the funerals: ergo 18th August 1985
They apparently spent 25 days of passion together before he was remanded in prison (The Sun 29th Oct 1986)
The header read, ‘I loved Bambi Beast’
The part in CAL's book is from VG statement and according her her, she hadn't even met Anji at that point. Someone be telling lies.
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The part in CAL's book is from VG statement and according her her, she hadn't even met Anji at that point. Someone be telling lies.
*%87
Do you mean he - Bamber ?
Didn’t Anji say she met Bamber when he went to Virginia’s Mums house ?
Or did CAL say that?
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I concur that there's obviously a background to the immediacy of the words in print, but what does it have to do with Jeremy's conviction?
It changes the dynamics of the false narrative in the public domain for starters April
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*%87
Do you mean he - Bamber ?
Didn’t Anji say she met Bamber when he went to Virginia’s Mums house ?
Or did CAL say that?
Yeah 'he'.
CAL's references to VG are from her W/S - we don't have that. There is clearly something not right with their story. Anji said it was her who Julie was pissed off about but Julie confirms it was VG. Unless we can see VG's statement it's not clear who said or did what but VG admits to sleeping with him because I doubt she 'spent the night' in the spare room.
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The part in CAL's book is from VG statement and according her her, she hadn't even met Anji at that point. Someone be telling lies.
Caroline are you claiming this entire passage is from CAL’s book verbatim
VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her and she was obviously open to it until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama and may not have even know about Julie until then. Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him.
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Yeah 'he'.
CAL's references to VG are from her W/S - we don't have that. There is clearly something not right with their story. Anji said it was her who Julie was pissed off about but Julie confirms it was VG. Unless we can see VG's statement it's not clear who said or did what but VG admits to sleeping with him because I doubt she 'spent the night' in the spare room.
So Bamber was sleeping with both sisters and presumably they weren’t aware he was cheating on each on them with each other ?
There must be a witness statement from Anji somewhere.
The police would have known about their contact, especially whilst he was on remand in prison
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So Bamber was sleeping with both sisters and presumably they weren’t aware he was cheating on each on them with each other ?
There must be a witness statement from Anji somewhere.
The police would have known about their contact, especially whilst he was on remand in prison
I wonder? In order to play on the 'woman scorned scenario' perhaps Bamber asked Anji to say they were seeing each other longer than they had been. Perhaps Virginia just didn't want to get involved?
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And here’s a thread Holly started over on blue re Charles Marsden http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3878.msg159278.html#msg159278
Charles Marsden
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:PM »
Steve_uk has asked posters to rate the credibility of Charles Marsden as a *prosecution witness but I've noticed that many posters have no idea who CM is. So for those in doubt I've taken all the info verbatim from Wilkes' book. Charles Marsden was the boyfriend of JM's friend, Liz Rimmington. And although CM was interviewed by the police I don't believe he was actually a *prosecution witness?
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Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
Oh, there’s much more here than meets the eye...
This quote of Charles Marsden’s, for example:
“Sometime later he’d been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home”
So, Charles admits he was woken by “movement in bed” — so why wasn’t he woken by the same movement in bed when Jeremy brought up a different girl on another occasion? Or maybe he did...I’m losing track
Charles had a habit of climbing into Jeremy’s bed leaving him and a girl downstairs, then for some strange reason Jeremy would bring the girl up into that bed where Charles lay....
It’s well-known that bisexual men enjoy threesomes with a woman; they can be close and intimate with each other without feeling gay...
But more importantly, why did Charles get up from the bed and drive himself home after Jeremy walked the girl home? He obviously wasn’t there to SLEEP the night...
He’d have gone home in the morning if that was the case
Charles Marsden, jumping into Jeremy’s bed leaving him and a girl downstairs, with no intention to sleep the night...and then Jeremy guiding her upstairs into that bed where Charles lay...waiting...
And that’s isn’t strange?😳
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What are we trying to establish with this thread?
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Caroline are you claiming this entire passage is from CAL’s book verbatim
No, some is what I remember - like her not wanting to be involved in the drama of their relationship. The other bits are my words of what CAL wrote - it's not all on the same page. It's not a copy and paste job.
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What are we trying to establish with this thread?
Who he was knocking off first.
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Who he was knocking off first.
What's the significance (for us stupid nonagenarians)?
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What's the significance (for us stupid nonagenarians)?
Because there are discrepancies in what both Virginia and Anji have claimed.
I don't someone who claims to support Bamber being guilty but seems to question (regularly) points made against him a 'nonagenarian' but hey ho!
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I wonder? In order to play on the 'woman scorned scenario' perhaps Bamber asked Anji to say they were seeing each other longer than they had been. Perhaps Virginia just didn't want to get involved?
Why would Anji agree to that and how much longer are you talking ?
Do you mean maybe they didn’t start their relationship 2 days after the funerals and that she’s lied in her interview with the Sun and bagged the money she earned for it and when she got the news he’d been convicted she walked into the road and nearly got hit by a bus?
Brett Collins would know more about this surely. He spent time with Anji and was even photographed with her attending court. Think this was around the time Bamber was initially arrested for the Osea Road robbery
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Because there are discrepancies in what both Virginia and Anji have claimed.
I don't someone who claims to support Bamber being guilty but seems to question (regularly) points made against him a 'nonagenarian' but hey ho!
I'm playing Devil's Advocate. There's a lot of unsubstantiated claims knocking around. And more than a smattering of nuanced homophobia.
Besides, so Anj and Virginia make different claims; how does this affect anything?
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Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Why would Bamber claim to Stan Jones him and Charles Marsden weren’t ‘so close now’
Yet Bamber had gone to see Marsden the day after the murders and gone for a drink in a pub outside Colchester for half an hour
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No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
Not at all surprised you would state this
I disagree
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’.
‘The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
Have underlined the words used by CAL which appear to have been the exact words used by and taken from Sarah’s witness statement or other police source
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Here's JM's version of what occurred.
Warning: talk of sexual activity including anal sex. Unsuitable content for 98 year olds!
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Earlier today, I put forward the suggestion that the 'incident' involving Sarah MAY have been the result of a fantasy shared, and concocted to be played out, by both Jeremy and Charles. My abject apologies to anyone who found it offensive. I find rape offensive, but not talking about it doesn't unhappen it. It's been claimed that Jeremy walked Sarah home the next morning so one must assume her to have been local. Might it have been that Jeremy wanted to make sure she wasn't going to leave with the impression that he'd raped her -and possibly share the information- instead, telling her how wonderful it had been and how they'd be together when he'd finished with Julie?
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According to CAL
‘In addition to the odd dalliance with Sue Ford, Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie in the first half of 1984 with two other women. The first was Liz Rimmimgton, whose relationship with Malcolm Waters had come to an end. After spending the night with Jeremy, Liz felt ‘terribly guilty’, telling Essex police in 1985 that they were never ‘romantically involved’ and Julie knew nothing about it.
Jeremy’s second liaison was with another friend of Julie’s. He and Charles Marsden had spent an evening drinking with the girl at the Chequers. Returning to Bourtree cottage after the pub closed, Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking. She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them; he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex but both he and the girl confirmed he had taken no part in what was going on.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working. Julie recalled the girl describing a threesome and, when she confronted Jeremy, he told her that the girl was neurotic. Leaving Julie sobbing in the garden, he returned later and charged at the locked door, splintering it. Julie decided to believe him and broke off her friendship with the girl as he asked.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
So according to CAL it appears Sarah’s story occurred sometime during the first half of 1984
CAL’s referred to Sarah as a ‘friend’ of Julie’s though Julie says in her witness statement Sarah was ‘an associate of Charles Marsden’s’
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Here's JM's version of what occurred.
Warning: talk of sexual activity including anal sex. Unsuitable content for 98 year olds!
It’s already been posted here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg592331#msg592331 Holly
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It’s already been posted here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11533.msg592331#msg592331 Holly
Sounds to me like the interviewing officers were stoking the fire between the witnesses and perhaps getting off on discussing it with young females.
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Why would Anji agree to that and how much longer are you talking ?
Do you mean maybe they didn’t start their relationship 2 days after the funerals and that she’s lied in her interview with the Sun and bagged the money she earned for it and when she got the news he’d been convicted she walked into the road and nearly got hit by a bus?
Brett Collins would know more about this surely. He spent time with Anji and was even photographed with her attending court. Think this was around the time Bamber was initially arrested for the Osea Road robbery
They both can't be telling the truth, remember it's only weeks after the murders that Bamber was arrested - everything unravelled quickly.
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Earlier today, I put forward the suggestion that the 'incident' involving Sarah MAY have been the result of a fantasy shared, and concocted to be played out, by both Jeremy and Charles. My abject apologies to anyone who found it offensive. I find rape offensive, but not talking about it doesn't unhappen it. It's been claimed that Jeremy walked Sarah home the next morning so one must assume her to have been local. Might it have been that Jeremy wanted to make sure she wasn't going to leave with the impression that he'd raped her -and possibly share the information- instead, telling her how wonderful it had been and how they'd be together when he'd finished with Julie?
Well it’s only Julie who appears to have suggested Sarah ‘consented to this’ though I suspect she came to believe this through Bamber’s brainwashing
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Yeah 'he'.
CAL's references to VG are from her W/S - we don't have that. There is clearly something not right with their story. Anji said it was her who Julie was pissed off about but Julie confirms it was VG. Unless we can see VG's statement it's not clear who said or did what but VG admits to sleeping with him because I doubt she 'spent the night' in the spare room.
And Anji admitted to spending 25 days of passion with him - according to the Sun
There’s a photograph of her on the forum somewhere laying on a bed, with a pile of letters from Bamber, a pack of Marlborough’s and a pile of cuddly toys
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Yeah 'he'.
CAL's references to VG are from her W/S - we don't have that. There is clearly something not right with their story. Anji said it was her who Julie was pissed off about but Julie confirms it was VG. Unless we can see VG's statement it's not clear who said or did what but VG admits to sleeping with him because I doubt she 'spent the night' in the spare room.
The Virginia and Anji relationships didn’t begin until after Bamber had murdered - though am aware it’s been stated he and Virginia had been am item before but Charles Marsden only ever recalled Bamber having 2 longer term relationships with Julie and Sue Ford - all the others he referred to as ‘one-night stands’
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Well it’s only Julie who appears to have suggested Sarah ‘consented to this’ though I suspect she came to believe this through Bamber’s brainwashing
Well, if he was going to say anything at all, much better to say she consented than that he (possibly) drugged and raped her, don't you think?
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Well, if he was going to say anything at all, much better to say she consented than that he (possibly) drugged and raped her, don't you think?
With hindsight, it’s entirely possible Julie came to recognise Sarah hadn’t consented.
Did CAL ever attempt to make contact with her (Julie) in order to help clarify matters?
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VG rang Jeremy about renting Sheila's flat, (they had dated previously). On what date did he ring her ? Jeremy invited her to Goldhanger to discuss the flat and they ended up spending the night together. What date was this ? Instead of meeting Julie on 31st August, he went with VG to her mums house where they has a meal and he told her that he 'cared about her'. And according to Anji he had gone to her flat in Kensington on the 18th Aug made a pass at her and told her he was fed up of Julie. He also talked to her about marriage. He then gave her a lift to London as she had plans to stay with her sister, the sister who Bamber was also in a relationship with showing her around Sheila's flat before dropping her off. So, they had slept together and he was obviously trying to pursue her He’d been pursuing Anji since the 18th Aug and she was obviously open to it So was Anji. until the day she called him and Julie realised who he was talking to - VG didn't want to be part of the drama The Julie or Anji or murders drama? and may not have even know about Julie until then. Why wouldn’t she have known about Julie Bamber also told Charles Marsden that she was moving into Sheila's flat with him. But is Charles Marsden a reliable witness ? Is Virginia ?
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The Virginia and Anji relationships didn’t begin until after Bamber had murdered - though am aware it’s been stated he and Virginia had been am item before but Charles Marsden only ever recalled Bamber having 2 longer term relationships with Julie and Sue Ford - all the others he referred to as ‘one-night stands’
She saw him for a while after he and Suzette Ford split - that's how he knew her.
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And here’s a thread Holly started over on blue re Charles Marsden http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3878.msg159278.html#msg159278
Charles Marsden
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:PM »
Steve_uk has asked posters to rate the credibility of Charles Marsden as a *prosecution witness but I've noticed that many posters have no idea who CM is. So for those in doubt I've taken all the info verbatim from Wilkes' book. Charles Marsden was the boyfriend of JM's friend, Liz Rimmington. And although CM was interviewed by the police I don't believe he was actually a *prosecution witness?
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Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
“Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying.”
The more snippets you read of Jeremy Bamber’s the more you see what an unconvincing liar he is. He isn’t at all bright.
To tell DS Jones that he “didn’t remember discussing the matter with Marden....” is effectively admitting he ‘may’ have told CM — or others — how he planned to kill his family *%87
If the police questioned you about a crime, say, bombing Parliament and said a friend had told them you’d said to them you’d like to bomb Parliament, if you were innocent you’d know 100% you’d never say such a mad thing in your life. You wouldn’t say: “I don’t remember discussing the matter with Marsden..”
Jesus...he HAS to be thick 🤥
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And here’s a thread Holly started over on blue re Charles Marsden http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3878.msg159278.html#msg159278
Charles Marsden
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:PM »
Steve_uk has asked posters to rate the credibility of Charles Marsden as a *prosecution witness but I've noticed that many posters have no idea who CM is. So for those in doubt I've taken all the info verbatim from Wilkes' book. Charles Marsden was the boyfriend of JM's friend, Liz Rimmington. And although CM was interviewed by the police I don't believe he was actually a *prosecution witness?
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Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
“And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.”
But Sarah told Julie that she got upset when she saw Jeremy and Charles fondling each other, so she got up, dressed and went home.
I don’t believe Jeremy was chivalrous enough to walk her home, especially as she was obviously upset and probbaly got out of there sharp!
And Jeremy wouldn’t have got dressed, especially being aroused with Charles next to him, and walked Sarah home. Besides being known as lazy, why didn’t he call her a cab?
Or why didn’t Charles drive her home? Why would Charles lay in the bed waiting for Jeremy return before getting up and driving himself home?
None of Charles Marsden’s story adds up.
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Who did Charles Marsden call - Bamber ?
Three interviews is suspicious...the police definitely smelt a rat with him
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There’s definitely far more to this Charles Marsden/Bamber story - things aren’t adding up - or are they
Did Bamber really walk this girl home and was it during this alleged walk home that he told Sarah he’d told Julie?
I wonder what Sarah’s surname is/was, Nichola?
I bet she hasn’t forgotten what happened that night...
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I cannot accept that, as this is quite disturbing too, that Jeremy supposedly date raped a woman, next to his sleeping friend who woke up during the said rape.
Its despicable and it needs further investigation.
If the evidence backed this up, then I would definitely review my position.
However, stating that. I am of the belief, 99.99% that Julie lied, throughout her testamony.
These are very serious accusations and if wrong, I would expect JB or the CT to be following this up.
This could damage his support network and the CT need to do everything within its power to dismiss these claims,as unreliable at the very least.
I do not visit the CT site, therefore I am serious when I ask 'Have they done this?'
But Sarah told Julie what happened, Ag
And Charles backed it up in his police statement, albeit he omitted some of the details ...
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No, no, no, these are not facts!
How many bedroom were in the house?
How many beds were in the house at the time?
Was one bedroom being used for storage or anything similar, therefore unusable?
Did Jeremy know beforehand (without question), did he state in previous statements that he knew CM was sleeping in another room when he was questioned about this?
It's not the norm, but what has been throughout this whole case? if Jeremy was 'open' about his sexuality, or rather not embarrassed or shy about his sexual performance in front of others...(and many people are very open, it neither makes them murderers or abusers) then he may not have realised CM was in the bed upon him entering it immediately, but recognised he was a very short time later, but carried on?
This does not make his actions to be as perverse as one makes it out to be.
I’ve not read anywhere that Charles Marsden was a midget, so it’s highly unlikely Jeremy didn’t spot him in his bed when he put Sarah into it, and then hopped in too
I’d also hazard a guess that JB only had a double bed: the house looks small, and back in the 1980s double beds were the norm. I have a super-king bed and I’d certainly spot someone laying in it — even if they were a Pygmy. So Jeremy not noticing Charles in his bed (and for no apparent reason 😳) doesn’t wash.
Also, Charles intended to drive home and sleep there the night, so what was he doing in Jeremy’s bed? That’s rather rude in my opinion. Fancy having two friends round for drinks and then one just walks upstairs and gets into your bed without you knowing? Why didn’t Jeremy tell Charles to get out?
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I concur that there's obviously a background to the immediacy of the words in print, but what does it have to do with Jeremy's conviction?
It’s totally separate from when Jeremy murdered his family, but the girl, Sarah — whose account is backed-up to some degree by CM himself who was there — describes it as a date-rape situation. She had no recollection of going upstairs, getting undressed, or getting into bed. She just remembered waking up to find Jeremy having intercourse with her.
Therefore, he had sex with her not just without her consent, but it sounds like he drugged her in order to do so.
Whilst that doesn’t have anything to do with the murders, it’s another insight into his character which shows the lengths he’s prepared to go to in order to get what he wants; the sheer disregard, disrespect he has for people; his lack of moral compass; his lack of decency and normal feelings for people
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I'm playing Devil's Advocate. There's a lot of unsubstantiated claims knocking around. And more than a smattering of nuanced homophobia.
Besides, so Anj and Virginia make different claims; how does this affect anything?
I haven’t seen any homophobic comments on here.
We’re simply repeating what was stated at the time: that Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie; promiscuous; and have named his alleged lovers, some of whom were men. What’s wrong with that?
The only homophobe was DCI Taff Jones, who said in that Welsh warble of his: “I think Jeremy’s a poofter, myself”
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It’s totally separate from when Jeremy murdered his family, but the girl, Sarah — whose account is backed-up to some degree by CM himself who was there — describes it as a date-rape situation. She had no recollection of going upstairs, getting undressed, or getting into bed. She just remembered waking up to find Jeremy having intercourse with her.
Therefore, he had sex with her not just without her consent, but it sounds like he drugged her in order to do so.
Whilst that doesn’t have anything to do with the murders, it’s another insight into his character which shows the lengths he’s prepared to go to in order to get what he wants; the sheer disregard, disrespect he has for people; his lack of moral compass; his lack of decency and normal feelings for people
This girl went back to the house alone with two men. In the 1980's women were still expected to make sensible decisions for themselves and that wasn't one. In my opinion she fancied Bamber and had a go at taking him from Julie. That wasn't very nice, was it?
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I haven’t seen any homophobic comments on here.
We’re simply repeating what was stated at the time: that Jeremy was unfaithful to Julie; promiscuous; and have named his alleged lovers, some of whom were men. What’s wrong with that?
The only homophobe was DCI Taff Jones, who said in that Welsh warble of his: “I think Jeremy’s a poofter, myself”
I think such was fairly endemic of the police force as it was in the 1980's.
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This girl went back to the house alone with two men. In the 1980's women were still expected to make sensible decisions for themselves and that wasn't one. In my opinion she fancied Bamber and had a go at taking him from Julie. That wasn't very nice, was it?
That's a more than reasonable theory. After all, isn't all supposed to be fair in love and war?
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This girl went back to the house alone with two men. In the 1980's women were still expected to make sensible decisions for themselves and that wasn't one. In my opinion she fancied Bamber and had a go at taking him from Julie. That wasn't very nice, was it?
Women weren’t expected to make sensible decisions just in the 1980s, Gunit...
But why would it be deemed dangerous to go back with a male friend to his house for after-closing drinks? He’d also invited her friend AND her mother — which was a very crafty move. It instilled confidence. He probably guessed the friend and the mother were tired and knew they’d go home instead. Had they agreed to come too, they’d have simply had a few drinks so he could show off his teletext TV, new Hi-Fi, and snazzy coffee machine and then called a cab to take them home.
So Sarah would have felt confident, not just because she knew him, but because he’d also invited her or her friend’s mother too. He lulled her into a false sense of security.
I don’t know why you think she fancied Jeremy Bamber, Gunit. He wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, you know, and although he wasn’t ugly he certainly didn’t have ravishing good looks like a movie star. He seemed to have nice hair, though...but the mono-brow wasn’t a good look. He didn’t seem to have any sex appeal or presence at all, I read. He was just a gobby, arrogant, boring braggart with strange eyes, apparently...
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That's a more than reasonable theory. After all, isn't all supposed to be fair in love and war?
I can’t think of one woman who would try and pinch a man by claiming he’d date-raped her.
That’s hardly going to entice him into your arms FGS!
There’s people like Gunit doubting Julie AND doubting Sarah...
Like, everyone lied except him...talk about being DELUDED.
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I can’t think of one woman who would try and pinch a man by claiming he’d date-raped her.
That’s hardly going to entice him into your arms FGS!
There’s people like Gunit doubting Julie AND doubting Sarah...
Like, everyone lied except him...talk about being DELUDED.
Nor I, but I doubt she had date-rape in mind when she went back to the house with him. More like, after a night of passion he'd prefer her, to Julie.
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Women weren’t expected to make sensible decisions just in the 1980s, Gunit...
But why would it be deemed dangerous to go back with a male friend to his house for after-closing drinks? He’d also invited her friend AND her mother — which was a very crafty move. It instilled confidence. He probably guessed the friend and the mother were tired and knew they’d go home instead. Had they agreed to come too, they’d have simply had a few drinks so he could show off his teletext TV, new Hi-Fi, and snazzy coffee machine and then called a cab to take them home.
So Sarah would have felt confident, not just because she knew him, but because he’d also invited her or her friend’s mother too. He lulled her into a false sense of security.
I don’t know why you think she fancied Jeremy Bamber, Gunit. He wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, you know, and although he wasn’t ugly he certainly didn’t have ravishing good looks like a movie star. He seemed to have nice hair, though...but the mono-brow wasn’t a good look. He didn’t seem to have any sex appeal or presence at all, I read. He was just a gobby, arrogant, boring braggart with strange eyes, apparently...
I meant as opposed to today when a woman who's been drinking is assumed to be unable to make decisions. [See the Ched Evans case]
If you can speculate about Bamber's motives I can speculate about the girl's motives. She wouldn't be the first to sleep with someone else's boyfriend or the first to realise that she was just a one-night stand.
I think a reasonable number of women found him attractive judging by how many slept with him.
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If 'Sarah' suffered some sort of sexual assault why didn't she report it to the police at the time or later when he was charged with the murders?
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I’ve not read anywhere that Charles Marsden was a midget, so it’s highly unlikely Jeremy didn’t spot him in his bed when he put Sarah into it, and then hopped in too
I’d also hazard a guess that JB only had a double bed: the house looks small, and back in the 1980s double beds were the norm. I have a super-king bed and I’d certainly spot someone laying in it — even if they were a Pygmy. So Jeremy not noticing Charles in his bed (and for no apparent reason 😳) doesn’t wash.
Also, Charles intended to drive home and sleep there the night, so what was he doing in Jeremy’s bed? That’s rather rude in my opinion. Fancy having two friends round for drinks and then one just walks upstairs and gets into your bed without you knowing? Why didn’t Jeremy tell Charles to get out?
There was talk, admittedly from JB, of NB/June 'encouraging' SC and the twins to move back to Essex with the option of moving into JB's cottage. (Yes I know another reason for him to murder them). So I'm guessing the cottage was a reasonable size to accommodate a small family.
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Assuming CM drove to JB's and the plan was to go to the pub he may have arranged to stay the night.
1983 evidential breath testing was implemented and if I remember rightly there was a lot of drink/driving media coverage at the time. Prior to this people took their chances with little risk of being caught.
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It’s totally separate from when Jeremy murdered his family, but the girl, Sarah — whose account is backed-up to some degree by CM himself who was there — describes it as a date-rape situation. She had no recollection of going upstairs, getting undressed, or getting into bed. She just remembered waking up to find Jeremy having intercourse with her.
Therefore, he had sex with her not just without her consent, but it sounds like he drugged her in order to do so.
Whilst that doesn’t have anything to do with the murders, it’s another insight into his character which shows the lengths he’s prepared to go to in order to get what he wants; the sheer disregard, disrespect he has for people; his lack of moral compass; his lack of decency and normal feelings for people
Seemingly Sarah did speak to the police but for some reason they did not follow it up.
Here we have a man. suspected of wiping out a whole family, an actor, a liar is how they described him, and yet, with all this information in front of them they chose not to follow it through.
The question should be, 'why did the police not follow up on the allegations made to them by Sarah?'
a) because she was lying
b) she had told them not to follow this through
c) she was intoxicated and really could not be sure what happened.
It does not state 'she woke up', or 'became alert' or 'came to'....to find Jeremy on top of her....
This story, or version laid out be CAL is all suggestive only and had no proof or sound dialog for the police to support it either.
Therefore, until we find some actual evidence, I'm inclined to believe that two intoxicated people crawled upstairs and had sex.So drunk, they possibly failed to notice somebody was next to them.
I have heard countless 'stories' of women being intoxicated and consenting to sex however so many have blacked out, which is common once the line of inebriation has been crossed.
Nothing untoward has happened its a very common occurrence amongst both men and women when utterly pi**ed.
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Assuming CM drove to JB's and the plan was to go to the pub he may have arranged to stay the night.
1983 evidential breath testing was implemented and if I remember rightly there was a lot of drink/driving media coverage at the time. Prior to this people took their chances with little risk of being caught.
Indeed we did...................and some!!!!!
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Indeed we did...................and some!!!!!
With horrendous results. 1040 drink drive deaths in 1985, compared to 230 in 2016. When you factor in an almost doubling of cars on the roads in that time, but considering improvements in car safety.
Being the youngest member of the forum, I'm staggered by the attitudes back then.
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Seemingly Sarah did speak to the police but for some reason they did not follow it up.
Here we have a man. suspected of wiping out a whole family, an actor, a liar is how they described him, and yet, with all this information in front of them they chose not to follow it through.
How do you know if it was followed through or not Aunt Agatha?
Have you asked Essex police?
Has anyone asked Essex police?
Maybe someone should
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How do you know if it was followed through or not Holly?
Have you asked Essex police?
Has anyone asked Essex police?
Maybe someone should
Ahem I'm not AA. Although judging by her avatar we do look similar and both obviously mid 70's!
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Seemingly Sarah did speak to the police but for some reason they did not follow it up.
Do you think the reason Bamber went to see Charles Marsden’s the night following the murders could have had anything to do with the night they took Sarah back to Bourtree cottage?
The pair of them went to a pub just outside Colchester apparently for around half an hour
What do you think they discussed - it appears to have never been disclosed
If the police interviewed Charles Marsden 3 times where are the corresponding witness statements / police notes/ entries etc ?
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Ahem I'm not AA. Although judging by her avatar we do look similar and both obviously mid 70's!
Have edited my original post accordingly
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Do you think the reason Bamber went to see Charles Marsden’s the night following the murders could have had anything to do with the night they took Sarah back to Bourtree cottage?
Or maybe the Osea Road burglary ?
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
(Source: Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’)
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What do you think they discussed - it appears to have never been disclosed
If the police interviewed Charles Marsden 3 times where are the corresponding witness statements / police notes/ entries etc ?
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,'
Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.'
Why did Charles Marsden think it ‘strange’ for Bamber to have turned up at his office at teatime?
What reason does he give in his witness statement for referring to it as strange?
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The following is Roger Wilkes interpretation - token from his book on the case ‘Blood Relations’
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
How was Charles Marsden ‘at pains to insist that he hadn’t taken part in the sex session’
And why has Roger Wilkes chosen to refer to this incident as a ‘sex session’ when it appears apparent from Sarah’s evidence it was nothing of the sort ?!?
Source Carol Ann Lee ‘The Murders at White House Farm’
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
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How do you know if it was followed through or not Aunt Agatha?
Have you asked Essex police?
Has anyone asked Essex police?
Maybe someone should
If it had, It would certainly have been mentioned somewhere and I know for a fact Jeremy was not questioned about this, in regards to it being a crime.
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If it had, I would certainly have been mentioned somewhere
This is the sort of thing that wouldn’t get mentioned AA
This is the sort of thing men like Bamber would cover up and he appears to have done just that until Carol Ann Lee has ‘brought it into the light’
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I know for a fact Jeremy was not questioned about this, in regards to it being a crime.
How do you know ?
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This is the sort of thing that wouldn’t get mentioned AA
This is the sort of thing men like Bamber would cover up and he appears to have done just that until Carol Ann Lee has ‘brought it into the light’
If any charges had been brought, if there had been the slightest indication of a suspected date rape charge It would have reached the public domain. I’d bet my best hat on it!
They were both pi**ed that night. They did what a lot of pi**ed people do.
There is no evidence whatsoever that he gave drugs to Sarah or julies sleeping tablets.
It’s more likely your mind is working overtime again. &^^&*
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Do you think the reason Bamber went to see Charles Marsden’s the night following the murders could have had anything to do with the night they took Sarah back to Bourtree cottage?
The pair of them went to a pub just outside Colchester apparently for around half an hour
What do you think they discussed - it appears to have never been disclosed
If the police interviewed Charles Marsden 3 times where are the corresponding witness statements / police notes/ entries etc ?
You’re asking the wrong person Nicholas. It’s CAL who should have been asking the questions before she wrote about it and if the Police saw through Jeremy they would have perused this further, unless they we quite incompetent.
You cannot have it both ways.
The couple were doing what loads couples do Each weekend. The actions of two very drunk and people who could have been smoking as well. Both completely off their faces however Sarah seems somewhat ashamed by her actions and has seemingly tried to put the blame on Jeremy, just like many others.
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Or maybe the Osea Road burglary ?
(Source: Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’)
I don’t presume to think what other people are thinking Nicholas....that’s very dangerous and causes things to be twisted and distorted to jeremys detriment each time.
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'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,'
Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.'
Why did Charles Marsden think it ‘strange’ for Bamber to have turned up at his office at teatime?
What reason does he give in his witness statement for referring to it as strange?
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
What’s also suspicious about this is that Charles Marsden called it ‘strange’ for Bamber to have called at his office on the evening following the murders, yet it appears Marsden also called Bamber to tell him he’d been interviewed by detectives 3 times?
Presuming this is Bamber he’s referring to or is this Liz Rimmimgton or someone else ?
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I think there were many anti-gay people around in the 1980s, which sadly meant many people tried to hide their sexuality. It’s of no relevance which gender he liked to have sex with: the relevance is — and from what Julie states in her WS’s — he was being deceptive, unfaithful, promiscuous — and wasn’t being honest with her. Remember, that was bang at the time of the onset of AIDS, which mainly affected gay people, so Jeremy was putting Julie — and everyone else he had sex with — at danger. Thankfully, they both dodged that bullet, but nonetheless he was taking a huge risk...
It’s clear going by Julie’s statements that he was cheating on her and having sex with others behind her back, and he was hiding it from her, being deceptive.
Julie saying that their sex life was normal sounds like it was — but she would have been referring to their own sex life as a couple.
My definition of promiscuous is someone who is constantly on the lookout for no strings attached sex.
It is known JB had relationships with SF and JM. I believe there was a short relationship with a woman called Ann? The one night stand with LR. The holiday fling with the Swiss woman. Last but not least AG.
Did he have sex with Sarah or was this just a drunken fumble?
Where's the evidence he had sexual relationships with males? Of course it was easy for a rumour to take hold about a Jeff in NZ as it wasn't easy to corroborate and Afaik never has been.
He may have used condoms.
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The following is Roger Wilkes interpretation - token from his book on the case ‘Blood Relations’
How was Charles Marsden ‘at pains to insist that he hadn’t taken part in the sex session’
And why has Roger Wilkes chosen to refer to this incident as a ‘sex session’ when it appears apparent from Sarah’s evidence it was nothing of the sort ?!?
Source Carol Ann Lee ‘The Murders at White House Farm’
I would interpret that to mean that he didn’t have a threesome or anything else for that matter, implying it was not as sinister as Is being suggested here. It discredits any suspicion of untoward activity and reinforces the opinion that it was a pair of pissed individuals acting out alone.
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'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,'
Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock”
Why did Charles Marsden think it ‘strange’ for Bamber to have turned up at his office at teatime?
What reason does he give in his witness statement for referring to it as strange?
Charles Marsden used the word ‘strange’ here too
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
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My definition of promiscuous is someone who is constantly on the lookout for no strings attached sex.
It is known JB had relationships with SF and JM. I believe there was a short relationship with a woman called Ann? The one night stand with LR. The holiday fling with the Swiss woman. Last but not least AG.
Did he have sex with Sarah or was this just a drunken fumble?
Where's the evidence he had sexual relationships with males? Of course it was easy for a rumour to take hold about a Jeff in NZ as it wasn't easy to corroborate and Afaik never has been.
He may have used condoms.
I would also point out accusations of promiscuity were also levelled at SC.
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Charles Marsden used the word ‘strange’ here too
Jeremy has just lost his whole family. I’m in no position to judge anybody’s actions under such intense emotional pain.
I, or anybody else, having found them selves in the position he did cannot be accused or suspected of anything untoward just because he turned up unexpectedly at his mates work place for a chat.
He’s looking for answers maybe, talking to a friend to help him try and comprehend what has just taken place.
CM states Jeremy was in shock!
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You’re asking the wrong person Nicholas. It’s CAL who should have been asking the questions before she wrote about it and if the Police saw through Jeremy they would have perused this further, unless they we quite incompetent.
You cannot have it both ways.
The couple were doing what loads couples do Each weekend. The actions of two very drunk and people who could have been smoking as well. Both completely off their faces however Sarah seems somewhat ashamed by her actions and has seemingly tried to put the blame on Jeremy, just like many others.
That wasn't the emphasis of CAL's book.
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Excerpts from Wilkes book re CM:
Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
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See the subtle anomalies at paras 3 and 8 from book excerpt in marked lines. CM says "...if the farmhouse were to burn down..." Stan Jones says "...you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it
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That wasn't the emphasis of CAL's book.
.....but she has used it to try and support her story through character assassination in order to support her theory of guilt.
Her writing in this particular instance has no weight and depth to it....until you come on here and opposers will certainly tell you exactly what Bamber was thinking, what conversations he had, what advantages he took of people etc.
He story is not based on facts! It is a story...it’s make believe.
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.....but she has used it to try and support her story through character assassination in order to support her theory of guilt.
Her writing in this particular instance has no weight and depth to it....until you come on here and opposers will certainly tell you exactly what Bamber was thinking, what conversations he had, what advantages he took of people etc.
He story is not based on facts! It is a story...it’s make believe.
Sadly, Auntie A, not entirely. I know those who say very similar of him well before the murders were committed, long before you had dealings with him.
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If any charges had been brought, if there had been the slightest indication of a suspected date rape charge It would have reached the public domain. I’d bet my best hat on it!
It has been by Carol Ann Lees book ‘The Murders at White House Farm’
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They were both pi**ed that night. They did what a lot of pi**ed people do.
Where’s your evidence for this claim ?
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There is no evidence whatsoever that he gave drugs to Sarah
There is
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
(Courtesy of Carol Ann Lee ‘The Murders at White House Farm)
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There is
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
(Courtesy of Carol Ann Lee ‘The Murders at White House Farm)
What was CAL's source for this?
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julies sleeping tablets.
Don’t know the date when Julie was prescribed the temazepam but if the ‘incident’ occurred in early 1984 it’s unlikely they were involved
But Bamber was a drug dealer was he not AA? Of would then follow he would have known how to source sleeping pills
Didn’t his mother have sleeping pills too ?
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You’re asking the wrong person Nicholas.
I’m not asking you the question because I think you might know the answer AA
You’ve made it clear numerous times you don’t have a clue about the case
And your posts support this
It’s more likely your mind is working overtime again. &^^&*
Much of the time, especially when replying to you, I ask questions to put an idea out there - in the hope you might engage your brain AA - to quote your good self ‘I’d bet my best hat on it!‘
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The couple were doing what loads couples do Each weekend. The actions of two very drunk and people who could have been smoking as well.
Again, you have no evidence whatsoever that they were both ‘very drunk’ nor is there any evidence they had ‘been smoking as well’
Please stop making things up!
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Both completely off their faces however Sarah seems somewhat ashamed by her actions and has seemingly tried to put the blame on Jeremy, just like many others.
You see, your making things up again! *&^^&
From Sarah’s witness statement,
‘Shocked, angry & abused’
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Sarah seems somewhat ashamed by her actions and has seemingly tried to put the blame on Jeremy, just like many others.
Only yesterday these allegations concerned you - today you’ve dismissed them *&^^&
You initially stated you didn’t want to hear anymore and even used the word ‘vile’
sickening and concerning if true.
I am hoping to God this is not true or that I'm seeing a pattern with these women.
You should give your head a wobble AA
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I don’t presume to think what other people are thinking Nicholas....that’s very dangerous and causes things to be twisted and distorted to jeremys detriment each time.
You do
It’s more likely your mind is working overtime again. &^^&*
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I don’t presume to think what other people are thinking Nicholas....that’s very dangerous and causes things to be twisted and distorted to jeremys detriment each time.
‘Jeremy detriment’ or to your own detriment ?
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I believe there was a short relationship with a woman called Ann?
‘Anne’ was apparently a barmaid from Colchester
There’s no evidence they had a one-night stand only that they met up - it’s not known what date he met with er though it apparently occurred after the murders between the times he was seeing Julie, Virginia and Anji
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That wasn't the emphasis of CAL's book.
Suspect that went over her head too *&^^&
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See the subtle anomalies at paras 3 and 8 from book excerpt in marked lines. CM says "...if the farmhouse were to burn down..." Stan Jones says "...you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it
What do the official documents state ?
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.....but she has used it to try and support her story through character assassination in order to support her theory of guilt.
Her writing in this particular instance has no weight and depth to it....until you come on here and opposers will certainly tell you exactly what Bamber was thinking, what conversations he had, what advantages he took of people etc.
He story is not based on facts! It is a story...it’s make believe.
*&^^&
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.....but she has used it to try and support her story through character assassination in order to support her theory of guilt.
Her writing in this particular instance has no weight and depth to it....until you come on here and opposers will certainly tell you exactly what Bamber was thinking, what conversations he had, what advantages he took of people etc.
He story is not based on facts! It is a story...it’s make believe.
CAL’s book is based on facts Aunt Agatha - her ‘facts’ come from original police documents
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CAL’s book is based on facts Aunt Agatha - her ‘facts’ come from original police documents
CAL provides cites but that doesn't mean what is cited is factually correct.
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CAL provides cites but that doesn't mean what is cited is factually correct.
I’m not making that claim though am I Holly
And I’ve already stated I don’t always agree with CAL’s interpretation
For example, CAL referred to Sarah as Julie’s ‘friend’ but Julie referred to Sarah as ‘an associate of Charles Marsden’
Sarah may have referred to Julie as a ‘friend’ in her witness statement and this may be why CAL stated what she did but I’ve seen no evidence from Julie’s evidence that her and Sarah were ‘friends’ per se plus Julie made it clear Bamber had told her to keep away from Sarah and said she was ‘neurotic’
I’ve not read CAL’s book and have only read snippets taken from google. She doesn’t appear to have fully explored the Virginia and Anji Greaves story but that may because the information she needed to do so isn’t in the public domain nor contained in or disclosed by police records ?
And I don’t know if CAL touched on or explored the toxic, emotional and psychological abusive relationship Julie had with Bamber - as I see it
Coercive or controlling behaviour wasn’t passed as a crime until 2015 which I think was the year CAL’s book was published?
CAL may not even have recognised this as a feature in this case or she may have recognised it but chose to not write about it and present it from that angle ?
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The following is Roger Wilkes interpretation - token from his book on the case ‘Blood Relations’
How was Charles Marsden ‘at pains to insist that he hadn’t taken part in the sex session’
And why has Roger Wilkes chosen to refer to this incident as a ‘sex session’ when it appears apparent from Sarah’s evidence it was nothing of the sort ?!?
I’ve not read Roger Wilkes book either but this snippet appears to me to both bias and misogynistic
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I meant as opposed to today when a woman who's been drinking is assumed to be unable to make decisions. [See the Ched Evans case]
If you can speculate about Bamber's motives I can speculate about the girl's motives. She wouldn't be the first to sleep with someone else's boyfriend or the first to realise that she was just a one-night stand.
I think a reasonable number of women found him attractive judging by how many slept with him.
I think — and this probably won’t go down well — but most women who have a first night stand aren’t picky...and they either have low self-esteem, or are drunk out their heads or stones to the eyeballs.
So just because JB was able to pull women for a ONS, it doesn’t mean they were classy; looked like supermodels...and he never saw then again (nor they him) so they couldn’t have been that attracted to each other. Had any of those girls really fancied him, they’d have made him wait. They wouldn’t want to look like some cheap easy lay. And if had fancied them he wouldn’t have come onto them immediately...
Sounds more like “any port in a storm”
It’s quality, not quantity
Any man or woman can go to a pub/club and pick someone up if they want; but what sort of person does that?
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I’m not making that claim though am I Holly
And I’ve already stated I don’t always agree with CAL’s interpretation
For example, CAL referred to Sarah as Julie’s ‘friend’ but Julie referred to Sarah as ‘an associate of Charles Marsden’
Sarah may have referred to Julie as a ‘friend’ in her witness statement and this may be why CAL stated what she did but I’ve seen no evidence from Julie’s evidence that her and Sarah were ‘friends’ per se plus Julie made it clear Bamber had told her to keep away from Sarah and said she was ‘neurotic’
I’ve not read CAL’s book and have only read snippets taken from google. She doesn’t appear to have fully explored the Virginia and Anji Greaves story but that may because the information she needed to do so isn’t in the public domain nor contained in or disclosed by police records ?
And I don’t know if CAL touched on or explored the toxic, emotional and psychological abusive relationship Julie had with Bamber - as I see it
Coercive or controlling behaviour wasn’t passed as a crime until 2015 which I think was the year CAL’s book was published?
CAL may not even have recognised this as a feature in this case or she may have recognised it but chose to not write about it and present it from that angle ?
I have read CAL's book but I gave it to a friend so don't have it to refer to.
Did CAL mention JM buying cannabis before she met JB and meeting a couple of guys who invited her back to their hotel room where she snorted coke?
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I meant as opposed to today when a woman who's been drinking is assumed to be unable to make decisions. [See the Ched Evans case]
Holly commented on the Ched Evans case
Even if the sex was consensual, as CE claims, surely the fact that he turned up the hotel to watch his mate have sex with the victim then ended up having sex with her himself while being watched from a window by his brother and mates says it all!
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I have read CAL's book but I gave it to a friend so don't have it to refer to.
Did CAL mention JM buying cannabis before she met JB and meeting a couple of guys who invited her back to their hotel room where she snorted coke?
Forgot to add the cite.
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CAL provides cites but that doesn't mean what is cited is factually correct.
CAL made certain all her statements were factual; she wasn’t going to leave herself open to be sued for libel
Any rumours or hypothesis were clearly stated, of which there were very few
You can’t start denying evidence...that does you no favours at all
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I have read CAL's book but I gave it to a friend so don't have it to refer to.
Did CAL mention JM buying cannabis before she met JB and meeting a couple of guys who invited her back to their hotel room where she snorted coke?
Julie comes across as very naive and far too open and honest doesn’t she Holly
Don’t suppose she ever dreamed one day her seemingly innocent disclosures would be used against her in an attempt to blacken her character
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Julie comes across as very naive and far too open and honest doesn’t she Holly
Don’t suppose she ever dreamed one day her seemingly innocent disclosures would be used against her in an attempt to blacken her character
It would be interesting to know what she was like before she met Jeremy.
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CAL made certain all her statements were factual; she wasn’t going to leave herself open to be sued for libel
Any rumours or hypothesis were clearly stated, of which there were very few
You can’t start denying evidence...that does you no favours at all
What’s interesting is how Holly decides to post a part of Julie’s witness statement where she’s admitted to experimenting with a bit of cocaine in her youth on a thread about Charles Marsden and Bamber and whether or not they had an affair
What’s the relevance ?
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It would be interesting to know what she was like before she met Jeremy.
It might be but it’s none of our business - Julie’s entitled to her right to privacy like the rest of us
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Julie comes across as very naive and far too open and honest doesn’t she Holly
Don’t suppose she ever dreamed one day her seemingly innocent disclosures would be used against her in an attempt to blacken her character
Innocent disclosures?
- Snorting coke pre JB
- Buying cannabis pre JB
- Using, producing and selling cannabis during JB with and without him
- Cheque fraud during JB without him
- Acting as a lookout at OCP during JB with him
JM is clearly a well educated and intelligent woman. I don't see her as naive or easily led.
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I have read CAL's book but I gave it to a friend so don't have it to refer to.
Did CAL mention JM buying cannabis before she met JB and meeting a couple of guys who invited her back to their hotel room where she snorted coke?
How many times did she buy cannabis Holly ?
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JM is clearly a well educated and intelligent woman. I don't see her as naive or easily led.
Only because it doesn’t suit your obvious agenda Holly
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JM is clearly a well educated and intelligent woman.
How would you describe her emotional maturity
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Forgot to add the cite.
She clearly wasn’t very ‘street wise’ was she
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I think — and this probably won’t go down well — but most women who have a first night stand aren’t picky...and they either have low self-esteem, or are drunk out their heads or stones to the eyeballs.
So just because JB was able to pull women for a ONS, it doesn’t mean they were classy; looked like supermodels...and he never saw then again (nor they him) so they couldn’t have been that attracted to each other. Had any of those girls really fancied him, they’d have made him wait. They wouldn’t want to look like some cheap easy lay. And if had fancied them he wouldn’t have come onto them immediately...
Sounds more like “any port in a storm”
It’s quality, not quantity
Any man or woman can go to a pub/club and pick someone up if they want; but what sort of person does that?
How would you describe GM's actions?
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Innocent disclosures?
- Snorting coke pre JB
- Buying cannabis pre JB
These were innocent disclosures Holly
Julie didn’t have to tell the police about the one time she brought cannabis nor of the time her and a mate tried a little bit of cocaine and apparently felt no effect from it - did she?
Do you think she may have been coerced by police to disclose this?
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How would you describe GM's actions?
Off topic
Please stop attempting to derail the thread
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How would you describe her emotional maturity
Hopefully very mature given she had trained to teach the next generation and had already undertaken a placement.
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Off topic
So GM is off-topic but CE isn't?
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Hopefully very mature given she had trained to teach the next generation and had already undertaken a placement.
But we’re not referring to what she went onto successfully do after her involvement with Bamber
We’re referring to her emotional maturity when she was with Bamber
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So GM is off-topic but CE isn't?
Yep start a new thread if you want to discuss the murder of innocent GM !
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She clearly wasn’t very ‘street wise’ was she
Absolutely not. But when did intellect have anything to do with common sense?
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Absolutely not. But when did intellect have anything to do with common sense?
You know Holly April she’ll try every trick in the book
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Yep start a new thread if you want to discuss the murder of innocent GM !
I'm not making judgements about her choice or saying she deserved to die I'm simply responding to ISpy's post.
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Hopefully very mature given she had trained to teach the next generation and had already undertaken a placement.
She may have had training but some things in life only come with experience.
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I'm not making judgements about her choice or saying she deserved to die I'm simply responding to ISpy's post.
Please stop Holly!
Start a new thread or PM her
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She may have had training but some things in life only come with experience.
Ain’t that the truth April
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You know Holly April she’ll try every trick in the book
I think you mean trick 8(0(*
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But we’re not referring to what she went onto successfully do after her involvement with Bamber
We’re referring to her emotional maturity when she was with Bamber
My post refers to what she was doing whilst with JB.
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I think you mean trick 8(0(*
*%87
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Please stop Holly!
Start a new thread or PM her
The mods decide what is and isn't on/off topic.
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I think you mean trick 8(0(*
Oooh! Someone posting Freudians? Sherks! I missed it 8)-))) 8)-)))
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Oooh! Someone posting Freudians? Sherks! I missed it 8)-))) 8)-)))
And so it seems did Holly
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Oooh! Someone posting Freudians? Sherks! I missed it 8)-))) 8)-)))
I wrote and posted ‘tick’ instead of ‘trick’
I went back and edited my mistake and must have done so before Holly quoted my post @)(++(*
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‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’.
The following day, the girl wondered whether she had been drugged. Feeling ‘shocked, angry and abused’ after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode, she called at the cottage while Jeremy was working.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=charles+marsden+essex&source=bl&ots=jQISI3Diw_&sig=ACfU3U1i336DTUwUTlMThBe2M3Xntg_NJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil_JK6psXpAhW-QhUIHRPOAwkQ6AEwBHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=charles%20marsden%20essex&f=false
‘after hearing that Jeremy had told Julie about the episode’
How did Sarah hear that Bamber had told Julie about that night?
And how long after the ‘episode’ was it before she went to the cottage, when Bamber was at work, to speak with Julie?
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The mods decide what is and isn't on/off topic.
Bit like Boris deciding Dominic Cummings didn't flout the lockdown rules (bringing his nasty, dirty germs to our wonderful county!). We all know he did the same as we know when something is off topic. See what I did there? 8(0(*
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I meant as opposed to today when a woman who's been drinking is assumed to be unable to make decisions. [See the Ched Evans case]
If you can speculate about Bamber's motives I can speculate about the girl's motives. She wouldn't be the first to sleep with someone else's boyfriend or the first to realise that she was just a one-night stand.
I think a reasonable number of women found him attractive judging by how many slept with him.
I haven’t seen the Ched Evans case — and no two cases are the same
I don’t know which era you’re in, Gunit, but it has ALWAYS been the case that if a girl is so intoxicated she can barely stand or talk, then any man who takes advantage of her when she’s disinhibited and unable to think, know, feel, be aware that she’s having sex, and that man has sex with her it is rape. It’s always been rape, in just the way if a girl was anaesthetised and a doctor had sex with her, it would be rape.
Your disgraceful untrue comment that Sarah had “motives” when she’d probably been drugged is disgusting — and weird.
You might find the monster attractive, but he couldn’t have been a Don Juan, nor did he look like a movie star. He frequented Stringfellows where some REALLY beautiful girls used to go, including top models, celebrities, sports stars, footballers, the occasional film star, some classy girls, some high class prostitutes picking up the Arabs who went there, some from wealthy families who liked to flash their brightly coloured convertibles, designer clothes, drink Champagne all night long...a big mix of all types/classes, but usually all very, very attractive, all slim, fashionable...that’s how it was
How is it that he got Julie, who was indeed very pretty, but she wasn’t particularly bright and she didn’t have any money; he got Sue Ford who was older with children; Angi, who was OK but quite hard-faced, and various one-night stands who obviously weren’t picky. How is it he never pulled a top model, a celebrity, a really gorgeous girl from a rich family? I saw scores of beautiful girls there, including a few celebrities, so why wasn’t he able to pull one of them if he was as good-looking as you seem to think? He certainly wasn’t slow in coming forward, so what was it about him that made them reject him? Because you can bet your life he tried! He’d have loved nothing more than to walk out of there with a stunningly beautiful girl on his arm, especially one who came from money and possibly had her own Porsche...
Maybe he looked less attractive in real life. Or maybe his “cold, dead eyes” turned them off? Or his arrogance? Lies? Bragging? Or maybe he had BO? Bad breath? Maybe they thought he was gay? Julie said all her friends thought he was gay. Whatever it was he didn’t have any success in pulling a woman when he went to Stringfellows...so what did he go there for if it wasn’t to try and pull a stunner...one with money or celebrity? Eh?
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There was talk, admittedly from JB, of NB/June 'encouraging' SC and the twins to move back to Essex with the option of moving into JB's cottage. (Yes I know another reason for him to murder them). So I'm guessing the cottage was a reasonable size to accommodate a small family.
It looks tiny
And it only had two bedrooms
That may have been OK in the short term, but Sheila would’ve needed a bigger place eventually
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Assuming CM drove to JB's and the plan was to go to the pub he may have arranged to stay the night.
1983 evidential breath testing was implemented and if I remember rightly there was a lot of drink/driving media coverage at the time. Prior to this people took their chances with little risk of being caught.
So why did Charles drive home after getting out of Jeremy’s bed in the early hours of the morning?
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Ahem I'm not AA. Although judging by her avatar we do look similar and both obviously mid 70's!
In that case, Holly, when you stand on the steps of the court as Jeremy Bamber hobbles out (0/trillion chance but you never know), make sure you’ve got your walking stick with you so you can beat him off. He has a penchant for older women...
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You’re asking the wrong person Nicholas. It’s CAL who should have been asking the questions before she wrote about it and if the Police saw through Jeremy they would have perused this further, unless they we quite incompetent.
You cannot have it both ways.
The couple were doing what loads couples do Each weekend. The actions of two very drunk and people who could have been smoking as well. Both completely off their faces however Sarah seems somewhat ashamed by her actions and has seemingly tried to put the blame on Jeremy, just like many others.
But Ag, had Sarah felt ashamed she wouldn’t have told people, especially Julie
Julie said Sarah was in a “terrible state”; crying, sobbing etc...
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My definition of promiscuous is someone who is constantly on the lookout for no strings attached sex.
It is known JB had relationships with SF and JM. I believe there was a short relationship with a woman called Ann? The one night stand with LR. The holiday fling with the Swiss woman. Last but not least AG.
Did he have sex with Sarah or was this just a drunken fumble?
Where's the evidence he had sexual relationships with males? Of course it was easy for a rumour to take hold about a Jeff in NZ as it wasn't easy to corroborate and Afaik never has been.
He may have used condoms.
But that’s precisely what he was doing — looking forward sex when Julie was in Lewisham
It’s well-recorded
If he did use condoms they must have been too big for him and fell off, because he developed sores on his penis...not sure what he picked up, but it was obviously some kind of venereal disease.
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Excerpts from Wilkes book re CM:
Para 1
"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner. Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat. They just drunk"
Para 2
"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington. He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'. 'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added. 'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.' Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.
Para 3
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
Para 4
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Para 5
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Para 6
The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences. They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women. Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands. He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women. Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers. They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage. Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed. Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed. Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex. The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further. But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session. And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.
Para 7
Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out. The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening. The bill came to £125.
Para 8
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?' Jeremy said he did. 'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.' The detective continued to look through his papers. 'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ? Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies. 'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well? Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying. Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
Para 9
Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
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See the subtle anomalies at paras 3 and 8 from book excerpt in marked lines. CM says "...if the farmhouse were to burn down..." Stan Jones says "...you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it
There’s no anomalies there at all. None.
DS Jones said asked the same question
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It would be interesting to know what she was like before she met Jeremy.
Colin said Julie was “good fun, good company, slightly mischievous — and a little naive”
I need to check, but basically she was a nice, friendly girl who was also popular.
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How would you describe GM's actions?
GM?
Who’s that?
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So GM is off-topic but CE isn't?
Who’s GM and who’s CE?
My mind’s a blur as I’ve been on here for hours $6(&
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GM?
Who’s that?
Garam Masala? These b****y things breed!! No sooner is one explained, than another turns up. Thankfully, no one has yet, though, resorted to C for Crispy!!!
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Garam Masala? These b****y things breed!! No sooner is one explained, than another turns up. Thankfully, no one has yet, though, resorted to C for Crispy!!!
Miss GoodHead loves abbreviations !
Yes, poor Crispy hasn’t reached the heady heights of having an abbreviation.
Same as BB...poor thing 8(8-))
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Miss GoodHead loves abbreviations !
Yes, poor Crispy hasn’t reached the heady heights of having an abbreviation.
Same as BB...poor thing 8(8-))
Don't you start!! Who the hell is BB, Bridget Bardot? *%87 8)--))
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'During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his.'
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Does anyone have any more details on the two accounts of arson at Osea Road Caravan site and could these have been test runs by Bamber ?
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I’ve seen the name, Charles Marsden, but don’t recall who he actually is. Does anyone know?
Whilst searching for some factual evidence last night at someone’s request, I stumbled upon some of Julie Mugford’s witness statements where she discusses Jeremy’s bisexuality.
She said he kept a photo of his NZ lover, Ray, on his dresser and admitted to Julie he’d had a gay affair with him, but it was a “one-off”...
Julie seemed so gullible
She then said how Jeremy flirted with both Brett, including another man at the bar they’d gone to on the NIGHT OF THE FUNERALS.
She also stated how she was approached by a friend of Charles Marsden, Sarah, who burst into tears and told Julie she needed to tell her something. She said she’d been invited back to Jeremy’s home for drinks, and that both he and Charles shared the same bed. She admitted that Jeremy began caressing her, in which she consented to, but then saw that Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other. Sarah got up and left, feeling very upset.
When Julie told Jeremy what Sarah had said, he got angry and said “If I see her I will go for her!” That’s scary isn’t it? it definitely shows how he loses his temper and how he’d attack a woman who “got in his way”...
Back to Charles Marsden...who actually was he, I wonder?
The thing is with Julie’s version of events here Ispywithmybigeye is that Bamber had convinced her Sarah was ‘neurotic’ - which is classic behaviour by an abuser like Bamber - so over time she appears to have dismissed the ‘incident’ and Bamber’s actions along with Sarah’s narrative of what she’d told her at the time.
Although Julie suggests Sarah ‘consented’ she didn’t actually know and it appears Sarah wasn’t spoken to by the police until after the murders but it’s clear from her evidence she hadn’t consented and indeed it looks very much like this was yet another criminal offence for which Bamber was involved and wasn’t subsequently prosecuted for
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Does anyone have any more details on the two accounts of arson at Osea Road Caravan site and could these have been test runs by Bamber ?
Interesting point. They may well have been.
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The thing is with Julie’s version of events here Ispywithmybigeye is that Bamber had convinced her Sarah was ‘neurotic’ - which is classic behaviour by an abuser like Bamber - so over time she appears to have dismissed the ‘incident’ and Bamber’s actions along with Sarah’s narrative of what she’d told her at the time.
Although Julie suggests Sarah ‘consented’ she didn’t actually know and it appears Sarah wasn’t spoken to by the police until after the murders but it’s clear from her evidence she hadn’t consented and indeed it looks very much like this was yet another criminal offence for which Bamber was involved and wasn’t subsequently prosecuted for
Julie says in her witness statement,
‘Last summer I was approached by a girl called Sarah’ who is an associate of Charles Marsden’s’
Summer would suggest June onwards - so it appears this ‘incident’ would have taken place in the second half of the year and not the first half as suggest by CAL - although Julie could be mistaken with the timings and Sarah may have said it occurred earlier ?
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Interesting point. They may well have been.
I don’t know if the arson attacks were reported to the police when they happened or whether or not they were dealt with ‘in-house’
And it’s difficult to work out how much damage was caused by the arson attacks
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Julie says in her witness statement,
‘Last summer I was approached by a girl called Sarah’ who is an associate of Charles Marsden’s’
Summer would suggest June onwards - so it appears this ‘incident’ would have taken place in the second half of the year and not the first half as suggest by CAL - although Julie could be mistaken with the timings and Sarah may have said it occurred earlier ?
JM was with JB over 2 summers '84 and' 85.
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I don’t know if the arson attacks were reported to the police when they happened or whether or not they were dealt with ‘in-house’
And it’s difficult to work out how much damage was caused by the arson attacks
There's no better way to prove concept, or dismiss a mode.
I imagine those caravans would be totally destroyed if not extinguished quickly.
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Interesting point. They may well have been.
Would be useful to know the dates of these arson attacks
Didn’t Bamber say at one time the reason he burgled the Osea Road caravan site was to teach the family a lesson over security or something ?
Could he have also been responsible for the arson attacks ?
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Would be useful to know the dates of these arson attacks
Didn’t Bamber say at one time the reason he burgled the Osea Road caravan site was to teach the family a lesson over security or something ?
Could he have also been responsible for the arson attacks ?
Bamber’s website states here https://jeremybamber.org/robert-boutflour/
‘Jeremy had expressed his concern with crime and intruders at the caravan site and had wanted to introduce new technologies such as CCTV cameras. Jeremy was unconvinced that the manager of the Site, Jim Carr was doing an adequate job, and so to prove his point further, he burgled the caravan park’
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Would be useful to know the dates of these arson attacks
Didn’t Bamber say at one time the reason he burgled the Osea Road caravan site was to teach the family a lesson over security or something ?
Could he have also been responsible for the arson attacks ?
Yeh, a pretty juvenile excuse that didn't wash; he just wanted the cash, in my opinion.
But it points to a devious mind in development and an escalation of activity.
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Yeh, a pretty juvenile excuse that didn't wash; he just wanted the cash, in my opinion.
But it points to a devious mind in development and an escalation of activity.
And criminal versatility
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And criminal versatility
So establishing the timing and nature of the arson attacks would be interesting, if nothing else.
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Bamber’s website states here https://jeremybamber.org/robert-boutflour/
‘Jeremy had expressed his concern with crime and intruders at the caravan site and had wanted to introduce new technologies such as CCTV cameras. Jeremy was unconvinced that the manager of the Site, Jim Carr was doing an adequate job, and so to prove his point further, he burgled the caravan park’
Even Bamber’s website states ‘to prove his point further’ ?
Could this be an indication he’d committed previous crime at the caravan site
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So establishing the timing and nature of the arson attacks would be interesting, if nothing else.
Think it would be helpful
Plus Bamber had talked to Charles Marsden about ‘arson’ albeit apparently in Dec ‘84
In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. 'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'
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So establishing the timing and nature of the arson attacks would be interesting, if nothing else.
Did Bamber hope to claim on the insurance?
‘The appellant said that the Osea Road Caravan Site company, "would be able to stand him a Porsche" car at some point during the year.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Did Bamber hope to claim on the insurance?
‘The appellant said that the Osea Road Caravan Site company, "would be able to stand him a Porsche" car at some point during the year.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
That could be construed that, when taking ownership, the park was relatively lucrative as a going concern.
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Interesting point. They may well have been.
He robbed and trashed the place so it’s reasonable to assume he was capable of having been involved in the arson offences
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He robbed and trashed the place so it’s reasonable to assume he was capable of having been involved in the arson offences
Gotta be careful with arson. Although there's the assumption that he's a psychopath, I don't think he's stupid enough to torch potentially occupied premises when embarking on planning for a much larger enterprise.
If he knew certain units were unoccupied, then there's scope there for a bit of trial and error.
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Gotta be careful with arson. Although there's the assumption that he's a psychopath, I don't think he's stupid enough to torch potentially occupied premises when embarking on planning for a much larger enterprise.
If he knew certain units were unoccupied, then there's scope there for a bit of trial and error.
Found the following
9 FEB 1984 THURS.A CHALET BURNT DOWN Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’ page 54.
2ND MARCH 1984 FRIDAY SHOP BURNT DOWN ARSON SUSPECTED Roger Wilkes ‘Blood Relations’ page 54/55
7TH MARCH 1984 DIRECTORS MEETING - AGREED TO BUILD NEW SHOP. Did Neville Bamber suspect JB of burning down shop at Osea? Did Neville Bamber appease JB with offer of cottage in Goldhanger so keeping peace in family? Roger Wilkes book (Blood Relations) page 54.
APRIL 1984 JB MOVES INTO HEAD STREET COTTAGE Julie Mugford Police Statement 8/9/September 1985 Sheet 2.
MARCH 1985 OSEA ROAD TO OPEN FOR SEASON. Roger Wilkes book Blood Relations page 54
MARCH 22 1985 OSEA OFFICE BURGLED £1,000 STOLEN Sheet 16 Julie Mugford Police Statement 8/9 Sept.1985 Also Police Statement sheet 14/15 on 10th Sept. 1985. JB was eventually charged with break in at Osea. NB also told BW he was aware that his son was guilty. Source -BW Author CAL interviews 2014 chapter 15/page121
EASTER WEEKEND WAS APRIL 7TH 1985. - JUST BEFORE EASTER JB MENTIONED KILLING FAMILY AGAIN. Julie Mugford Police Statement 8/9/Sept. Sheet 8
APRIL EASTER TIME 1985 JB HAS ARGUMENT WITH MOTHER. JB SAYS TO JM HE WON'T TALK TO MOTHER AGAIN UNLESS SHE WRITES HIM A CHEQUE. Did NB know about this? Can't find this, but think it was from Julie Mugford Police statements
2ND MAY 1985 OSEA SHAREHOLDERS MEETING . JEREMY ANGRY ! (Blood Relations) page 55
June 1985 RENT REVIEW WHF. WINTER 1984/85 PRE; DETAILED REPORT ON COND. OF PLOTS ON OSEA ROAD SITE. Souce Roger Wilkes Blood Relations chapter 3 page 51
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Found the following
Yes. He did all of those, in my opinion. No occupancy.
And it wasn't about 'improving security'.
He's testing proof of concept.
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Yes. He did all of those, in my opinion. No occupancy.
And it wasn't about 'improving security'.
He's testing proof of concept.
I think so too
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9 FEB 1984 THURS.A CHALET BURNT DOWN Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’ page 54.
2ND MARCH 1984 FRIDAY SHOP BURNT DOWN ARSON SUSPECTED Roger Wilkes ‘Blood Relations’ page 54/55
7TH MARCH 1984 DIRECTORS MEETING - AGREED TO BUILD NEW SHOP. Did Neville Bamber suspect JB of burning down shop at Osea? Did Neville Bamber appease JB with offer of cottage in Goldhanger so keeping peace in family? Roger Wilkes book (Blood Relations) page 54.
APRIL 1984 JB MOVES INTO HEAD STREET COTTAGE Julie Mugford Police Statement 8/9/September 1985 Sheet 2.
Were these incidents ever investigated by the police ?
And only a few months after these arson attacks Bamber was involved with the drugging and sexual assault of Sarah
Could he have done this to other girls ?
And could the reason he chose to go clubbing in London be because he was on the lookout for further victims to drug and sexually assault ?
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All these incidents bring to mind again the ‘criminal spin”
‘Criminal spin is a phenomenological model in criminology, depicting the development of criminal behavior. The model refers to those types of behavior that start out as something small and innocent, without malicious or criminal intent and as a result of one situation leading to the next, an almost inevitable chain of reactions triggering counter-reactions is set in motion, culminating in a spin of ever-intensifying criminal behavior.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_spin
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“James Carr, manager of the Bamber family’s Osea Road caravan park, found Jeremy thoroughly disagreeable:
‘He was growing up to be quite a nasty piece of work. Even at a young age he would tell me I was just an employee.’
James’s son Robert recalled Jeremy
‘could be very cruel to animals and he used to take great delight in throwing stones at waterhen chicks and hitting farm animals with sticks. He did not have a warm relationship with his parents.’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157376/Now-know-Bamber-did-Crime-writer-s-definitive-verdict-public-schoolboy-slaughtered-entire-family-30-years-ago-tried-frame-dead-sister-protested-innocence.html
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Julie says in her witness statement,
‘Last summer I was approached by a girl called Sarah’ who is an associate of Charles Marsden’s’
Summer would suggest June onwards - so it appears this ‘incident’ would have taken place in the second half of the year and not the first half as suggest by CAL - although Julie could be mistaken with the timings and Sarah may have said it occurred earlier ?
Julie also states,
‘I must admit that I believed Sarah as I could see no reason for her approach to me in such a state if nothing had happened”
It then appears Bamber used violence in order to get Julie to submit
She goes on to states,
“As a result of his actions” she’s referring to his violent outburst “I changed my mind, told him I believed him and he returned to work”
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Julie also states,
‘I must admit that I believed Sarah as I could see no reason for her approach to me in such a state if nothing had happened”
It then appears Bamber used violence in order to get Julie to submit
She goes on to states,
“As a result of his actions” she’s referring to his violent outburst “I changed my mind, told him I believed him and he returned to work”
Julie goes on,
“After that incident he refused to have Sarah in the house and told me not to see her again”
Classic example of coercive control right there
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From Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’
Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him. 'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?'
Jeremy said he did.
'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.'
The detective continued to look through his papers.
'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ?
Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies.
‘You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements,
'Charles Marsden also says the same thing. He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything. Is he telling lies as well?
Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying.
Stan Jones put the statement down on the table. Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies. For what reason? 'No comment.'
If Bamber thought Charles Marsden was a liar why did he go to see him the day after the murders ?
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Do you think Charles Marsden had told police he went to bed and left Bamber and the girl downstairs ?
‘Charles went to bed while Jeremy and the girl stayed downstairs drinking.
Am presuming CAL took the above from his WS ?
Maybe the following came from Sarah’s statement ?
‘She told detectives in 1985 that she had suddenly found herself in Jeremy’s bedroom with him, ‘on top of me having intercourse’. Charles Marsden lay next to them;
This bit must have come from Marsden’s statement
‘he recalled waking up to find the couple having sex
Suppose Bamber could have drugged her then carried her up to bed where Marsden was sleeping - but why take her upstairs to a bed with Marsden in it - why not stay downstairs ?
What happens after Marsden wakes up to find them having sex ? Did he take himself out of the situation ?
Something doesn’t add up as I’ve said
This part in particular of Charles Marsden’s statement appears iffy
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Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
Does anyone know why Charles Marsden wasn’t used as a witness at trial ?
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If Bamber thought Charles Marsden was a liar why did he go to see him the day after the murders ?
‘At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour.
Courtesy of Roger Wilkes ‘Blood Relations’
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‘At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour.
Courtesy of Roger Wilkes ‘Blood Relations’
It’s quite possible the reason Bamber went to see Charles Marsden was to tell him to keep his mouth shut re the drugging and sexual assault on Sarah or he’d implicate him
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Interestingly though Julie also states,
“as this was going on Jeremy and Charles were fondling each other although she was not explicit as to what they were doing”
She appears to be recalling what Sarah may have told her about the ‘incident’
Was Sarah ‘explicit’ in her witness statement to police ?
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There’s a blog headed, JEREMY BAMBER : THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERSby Richard Bevan (Jan 2019)
A couple of excerpts read,
PATHOLOGICAL LIARS & BPD (BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER)
Pathological lying and extreme delusional self-belief are traits recognised in countless murderers and serial killers over the decades. Andrew Cunanan, infamous for several brutal murders before shooting and killing Italian fashion designer Gianni Versace in 1997 in Miami is a test case example of Borderline Personality Disorder.
However, a psychiatric disorder such as BPD does not necessarily relate to violent behaviour. It is generally a mental health condition that affects around one in 150 people in the UK and is, for the most part, identified with ‘split personality’ and not schizophrenia. Even the latter, outside of horror movies and 70s TV thrillers, is rarely associated with violent and dangerous behaviour. But intense, inappropriate anger is one of the most troubling symptoms of borderline personality disorder, in fact so intense that it is often referred to as ‘borderline rage’. Cunanan, who eventually committed suicide at a Miami beach-house while under siege by the armed police is the kind of psychotic killer associated with both BPD and acute pathological lying which enabled him to create a fake persona and convince the unsuspecting of being someone or something he wasn’t.
UPBRINGING AND EMOTIONAL TRAUMA
Psychiatric illnesses and syndromes such as BPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Anti-Social Personality Disorder often have their roots in childhood and early experiences both within and outside the family unit. Dr Scott Carroll explains. ‘Such people have usually had childhoods filled with abuse, neglect, and loss of caregivers and grew up in foster care or an orphanage’.
Serial killer-in-the-making Cunanan was raised in a household where his mother was terrified of her violent, authoritarian husband, a status-obsessed bully who is also believed to have sexually abused the young Cunanan as a child. Creating fake worlds by the traumatised may be one strategy to cope with anxiety, emotional violence and fear as Dr Michele Barton, director of ‘Psychology Life Well’ underlines. ‘Pathological liars are usually very insecure individuals raised by very authoritative and strict parents who were not excepting of that individual as they were. Therefore the [person] had to create a persona that was lovable and acceptable by their parents to avoid punishment, embarrassment, and vulnerability,’ says Barton.
NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Lie detector results exempting, the one factor Bamber and Cunanan share in common with their pathology is Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or strong narcissistic traits where they compulsively lied just to make themselves appear more glamorous and impressive. Those with NPD often display an exaggerated sense of self-importance and the more clever of them, such as Cunanan, can con others into believing their boashut upl tales. Before Cunanan’s dramatic death as he was holed up in a Miami beach-house he had at times, lived the lifestyle of a millionaire, socialising with the rich and famous, all on the back of presenting an image of himself that wasn’t factual. Bamber himself created a delusional world for himself, an alternative alter-ego as a ‘playboy’ and a self-belief of being intellectually superior to those aro,und him. Although Bamber’s childhood and social background was different to that of the power-crazed Cunanan, he was brought up in a strict ‘moral’ home environment by disapproving parents and in the case of his mother, June, her religious fervour and puritan mindset was controlling and may have contributed to Bamber’s sister Sheila’s mental breakdown.
The blog can be read in full here https://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/article/jeremy-bamber-the-white-house-farm-murders
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Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.
But it appears CAL only referred to one of Charles Marsden’s witness statements? (w/s, 9 september 1985)
Was he interviewed by police 3 times but only gave one witness statement or are there 2 further witness statements ?
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It’s been claimed on the Injustice Anywhere forum,
‘Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
Injustice Anywhere • View topic - Jeremy Bamber
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.ph ... l#msg29919 ... Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
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It’s been claimed on the Injustice Anywhere forum,
‘Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
Injustice Anywhere • View topic - Jeremy Bamber
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.ph ... l#msg29919 ... Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
No idea who posted it on Injustice Anywhere as it appears you have to be a member to view the site
But why try to link Charles Marsden back to Julie
Marsden was a close friend of Bamber’s - Bamber said so himself
Suspect he knew many things about Bamber and some things he may have even chosen to not tell police
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Julie goes on,
“After that incident he refused to have Sarah in the house and told me not to see her again”
Classic example of coercive control right there
Julie further states (re Sarah)
“He also said if he ever found her round the house he would go for her”
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It’s been claimed on the Injustice Anywhere forum,
‘Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
Injustice Anywhere • View topic - Jeremy Bamber
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.ph ... l#msg29919 ... Idea of burning the house down can be traced back to Charles Marsden a boyfriend of Julies friend.
He must have felt extremely close to Charles to be so revealing; and perhaps thought he’d keep his mouth shut as he had something on him...it seems their trysts late at night was kept quiet...
That’s how manipulative narcissistic psychopaths work: they like to “have” something on you that would cause embarrassment in order to control you.
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Does anyone know why Charles Marsden wasn’t used as a witness at trial ?
I suspect Jeremy kept him low key...
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From Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’
If Bamber thought Charles Marsden was a liar why did he go to see him the day after the murders ?
More I think about it, the more I see where you’re coming from, Nicholas
Jeremy told police he used to be close to Charles but hadn’t been for some years...like he was putting them off the scent.
Had their friendship/relationship petered out, why, as you point out, did he drive to see him of all people on the afternoon of the murders?
Strange...
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More I think about it, the more I see where you’re coming from, Nicholas
Jeremy told police he used to be close to Charles but hadn’t been for some years...like he was putting them off the scent.
Had their friendship/relationship petered out, why, as you point out, did he drive to see him of all people on the afternoon of the murders?
Strange...
On 8th August Bamber had an appointment in Colchester with Cock and the solicitor. He went to see Marsden after that.
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On 8th August Bamber had an appointment in Colchester with Cock and the solicitor. He went to see Marsden after that.
Isn’t that interesting
Bamber claimed him and Charles Marsden were once close but by this point presumably they no longer were ? So what was this visit really all about?
Bamber claimed he & Marsden were ‘once close friends’ but then called his ‘once close friend’ a liar because he told police Bamber had talked about White House Farm burning down everything would be his
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Isn’t that interesting
Bamber claimed him and Charles Marsden were once close but by this point presumably they no longer were ? So what was this cost really all about?
Bamber claimed he & Marsden were ‘once close friends’ but then called his ‘once close friend’ a liar because he told police Bamber had talked about White House Farm burning down everything would be his
Well generally the need to mobilise and personally intervene is on the one with the most to gain. Interesting cameo this.
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Well generally the need to mobilise and personally intervene is on the one with the most to gain. Interesting cameo this.
It is indeed
He had an appointment with Mr Cock but didn’t have an appointment with Charles Marsden - he turned up at tea time out of the blue and they went to a pub just outside Colchester for a chat
Presumably he’d left Julie behind ?
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It is indeed
He had an appointment with Mr Cock but didn’t have an appointment with Charles Marsden - he turned up at tea time out of the blue and they went to a pub just outside Colchester for a chat
Presumably he’d left Julie behind ?
Obviously an urgent need at a time when his priorities should have been elsewhere - narrative or alliance building? Or both?
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Obviously an urgent need at a time when his priorities should have been elsewhere - narrative or alliance building? Or both?
Somethings suspect about this ‘meeting’ for certain
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The other point is Charles Marsden hadn’t heard about the murders at this point - so it would appear the earliest newspaper reports weren’t made until the following day - the 9th August
So Bamber had all day to contact the Sun and/or other newspapers to tip them off in order to place his false narrative into the public domain
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On 8th August Bamber had an appointment in Colchester with Cock and the solicitor. He went to see Marsden after that.
When did Bamber make contact with the vet?
Was that the same day or did he contact him on the 9th and the vet made a home visit the same day?
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It is indeed
He had an appointment with Mr Cock but didn’t have an appointment with Charles Marsden - he turned up at tea time out of the blue and they went to a pub just outside Colchester for a chat
Presumably he’d left Julie behind ?
Julie was busy emotionlessly identifying the bodies.
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What reason did Bamber give for choosing to not identify the bodies ?
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The other point is Charles Marsden hadn’t heard about the murders at this point - so it would appear the earliest newspaper reports weren’t made wasn’t until the following day - the 9th August
So Bamber had all day to contact the Sun and/or other newspapers to tip them off in order to place his false narrative into the public domain
At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester. Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers. The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour. 'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.' What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her.
Charles Marsden stated,
‘I thought it strange Jeremy had come to see me with the news’
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Charles Marsden stated,
‘I thought it strange Jeremy had come to see me with the news’
So ‘strange’ he went on to visit Bamber at his cottage?
Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
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When did Bamber make contact with the vet?
Was that the same day or did he contact him on the 9th and the vet made a home visit the same day?
So Bamber phoned the vet on the 8th and the vet made a home visit the same day
This is what the vet stated;
The Vet’s W/S:
Robert McTaggart Hill, w/s, 14 October 1985; vet with Neill & Scott, Maldon.
Jeremy Bamber called him on 8 August and he went to Bourtree:
‘On my arrival Mr Jeremy Bamber told me that he wished me to put down the Shih Tzu dog that had belonged to Mrs Bamber, his mother. He said that the dog was very attached to his mother, and since her death, he thought that the dog should not go to another home. He also said that the dog had turned a bit nasty since the killings at WHF and it was a bit snappy. I also spoke with Mr Jeremy Bamber about finding a new home for another dog from WHF, this was a black Labrador gun dog. He seemed concerned that the dog should be found another home on a farm but if that didn’t work out that dog should also be put down. Through the vet’s practise another home was found for this dog at Corporation Farm at Maldon and we housed the dog on Friday, 9 August 1985… Mr J Bamber brought the dog to the surgery on that afternoon. On the occasions I saw Jeremy Bamber, he seemed upset when I saw him on 8.8.85 but he seemed to be more composed on 9.8.85 when I saw him in Maldon at the surgery. On the latter occasion he explained that he was on tranquillisers. I knew nothing of Jeremy Bamber or his family prior to 8.8.85.’
The vet stated, ‘he seemed upset when I saw him on 8.8.85‘
And his once close friend Charles Marsden stated, ‘Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards’ Sheila
What did Charles Marsden say about what Bamber had told him about Cripsy ? Anything ?
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No idea who posted it on Injustice Anywhere as it appears you have to be a member to view the site
But why try to link Charles Marsden back to Julie
Marsden was a close friend of Bamber’s - Bamber said so himself
Suspect he knew many things about Bamber and some things he may have even chosen to not tell police
Little things like spelling mistakes, on the first page of their website, are a cause for serious concern. Huge error!!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Little things like spelling mistakes, on the first page of their website, are a cause for serious concern. Huge error!!
Do you mean if Bamber’s current solicitor advocate can’t spot a human spelling error on his company website he’ll be unlikely to recognise the human errors in Bamber’s case papers ?
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Do you mean if Bamber’s current solicitor advocate can’t spot a human spelling error on his company website he’ll be unlikely to recognise the human errors in Bamber’s case papers ?
Well put Nicholas. Yes.
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Well put Nicholas. Yes.
Have you heard anything yet AA?
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Do you mean if Bamber’s current solicitor advocate can’t spot a human spelling error on his company website he’ll be unlikely to recognise the human errors in Bamber’s case papers ?
They have terrible reviews.
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They have terrible reviews.
According to Mark Newby
mark newby
1 review
2 years ago
Negative Reviews - We always take negative reviews seriously and have looked into the names and details of these reviews . It is not our belief that these reviews are true or the actions described would have been taken by this firm and we have made a report to Google . If there was any genuine complaint then this can be made directly to the firm and we would robustly investigate it .
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On 8th August Bamber had an appointment in Colchester with Cock and the solicitor. He went to see Marsden after that.
How did the appointment with Basil Cock come about?
Who contacted who ?
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Julie was busy emotionlessly identifying the bodies.
This is something I really can't understand: Julie volunteering to identify the bodies.
She was 20/21, and can't have known the family that well. To me, this isn't normal behaviour, although I will accept that she was so in love with JB, that she did it for him.
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This is something I really can't understand: Julie volunteering to identify the bodies.
She was 20/21, and can't have known the family that well. To me, this isn't normal behaviour, although I will accept that she was so in love with JB, that she did it for him.
It’s possible he manipulated her into doing so
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This is something I really can't understand: Julie volunteering to identify the bodies.
She was 20/21, and can't have known the family that well. To me, this isn't normal behaviour, although I will accept that she was so in love with JB, that she did it for him.
Mrswah, this was debated at length on another forum, one poster insisting that Julie had been eager to do it, offering herself before anyone else had a chance. The truth was that Julie, unlike relatives, knew the twins apart, and was actually there, unlike the only other person who could, Colin's girlfriend, who was in London. When those were removed, who declined to do it, and those who couldn't tell the boys apart, there really wasn't much choice.
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Mrswah, this was debated at length on another forum, one poster insisting that Julie had been eager to do it, offering herself before anyone else had a chance. The truth was that Julie, unlike relatives, knew the twins apart, and was actually there, unlike the only other person who could, Colin's girlfriend, who was in London. When those were removed, who declined to do it, and those who couldn't tell the boys apart, there really wasn't much choice.
Ok, but what do you think would have happened had she not wanted to do it?
So, she must have seen quite a lot of the twins while they were alive? How? I thought Sheila didn't go to WHF all that often, and I can't imagine JB and JM visited Colin very much.
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Ok, but what do you think would have happened had she not wanted to do it?
So, she must have seen quite a lot of the twins while they were alive? How? I thought Sheila didn't go to WHF all that often, and I can't imagine JB and JM visited Colin very much.
I believe she read them a bedtime story at Colin's housewarming party the previous weekend. It meant she'd seen them far more recently than the relatives. I can't speculate what would have happened in the event of her not doing it. It's perfectly understandable that Colin didn't feel able. Jeremy appears to have been absent when the request was made.
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I believe she read them a bedtime story at Colin's housewarming party the previous weekend. It meant she'd seen them far more recently than the relatives. I can't speculate what would have happened in the event of her not doing it. It's perfectly understandable that Colin didn't feel able. Jeremy appears to have been absent when the request was made.
Bamber wouldn't identify the boys, Colin couldn't bring himself to (understandably), Ann couldn't tell them apart and Julie knew that Nicholas had a tiny scar on his cheek.
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Julie was busy emotionlessly identifying the bodies.
Did Bamber tell Charles Marsden when he turned up out of the blue at his place of work that Julie had gone to identify the bodies ?
And did he tell his ‘once close friend’ he’d had his mothers dog Crispy put down earlier in the day ?
This is what the vet stated;
The Vet’s W/S:
Robert McTaggart Hill, w/s, 14 October 1985; vet with Neill & Scott, Maldon.
Jeremy Bamber called him on 8 August and he went to Bourtree:
‘On my arrival Mr Jeremy Bamber told me that he wished me to put down the Shih Tzu dog that had belonged to Mrs Bamber, his mother. He said that the dog was very attached to his mother, and since her death, he thought that the dog should not go to another home. He also said that the dog had turned a bit nasty since the killings at WHF and it was a bit snappy. I also spoke with Mr Jeremy Bamber about finding a new home for another dog from WHF, this was a black Labrador gun dog. He seemed concerned that the dog should be found another home on a farm but if that didn’t work out that dog should also be put down. Through the vet’s practise another home was found for this dog at Corporation Farm at Maldon and we housed the dog on Friday, 9 August 1985… Mr J Bamber brought the dog to the surgery on that afternoon. On the occasions I saw Jeremy Bamber, he seemed upset when I saw him on 8.8.85 but he seemed to be more composed on 9.8.85 when I saw him in Maldon at the surgery. On the latter occasion he explained that he was on tranquillisers. I knew nothing of Jeremy Bamber or his family prior to 8.8.85.’
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The part in CAL's book is from VG statement and according her her, she hadn't even met Anji at that point. Someone be telling lies.
It looks like Virginia Greaves attempted to pervert the course of justice and committed perjury
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Why would Anji agree to that and how much longer are you talking ?
Do you mean maybe they didn’t start their relationship 2 days after the funerals and that she’s lied in her interview with the Sun and bagged the money she earned for it and when she got the news he’d been convicted she walked into the road and nearly got hit by a bus?
Brett Collins would know more about this surely. He spent time with Anji and was even photographed with her attending court. Think this was around the time Bamber was initially arrested for the Osea Road robbery
Are the photos of Brett Collins of him and Virginia Greaves or Anji ? His recent interview sounds like he was referring to being photographed with Virginia
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Brett and Jeremy's girlfriend? look for a lawyer... https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563 (https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563)
The first photo is of Brett Collins and Angela Greaves (according to Getty), the second of Anji Greaves. Compare and contrast...
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Brett and Jeremy's girlfriend? look for a lawyer... https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563 (https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563)
The first photo is of Brett Collins and Angela Greaves (according to Getty), the second of Anji Greaves. Compare and contrast...
If Virginia Greaves was 23 years old around the time of the murders - how old was she when she allegedly ‘had an affair’ with Bamber ‘years before Sue Ford’?
Journalist Roger Wilkes stated in his book ‘Blood Relations’
‘On Friday one of Jeremy’s old girlfriends, Virginia Greaves, made a chance reappearance. Virginia a twenty three year old personnel assistant, had been a member of the Frog and Beans’ drinking set for about three years; she had been a girlfriend of Michael Deckers at one time, and had had an affair with Jeremy in the days before Sue Ford arrived on the scene. At the time of the Bamber killings, she hadn’t seen him for over a year. She had sent him a condolences card, but had received no response. Then through Michael Deckers, she had heard that Jeremy was trying to find someone to rent Sheila’s old flat in Maida Vale and to act as landlady when Jeremy himself wasn’t there. The protest appealed to Virginia Greaves, and she telephoned Jeremy at his cottage. He was out, so she left a message on his answering machine. On Friday afternoon Jeremy returned her call.
After some conversation about the Maida Vale flat, Jeremy invited Virginia Greaves out to dinner with himself and Brett Collins. Julie was still in London. Virginia agreed, and that evening Jeremy arrived at her family’s cottage near Colchester to pick her up. In the car, Jeremy complained about the behaviour of his surviving relations, saying they were forever in and out of White House farm and helping themselves to it’s contents. He told Virginia Greaves that he was getting no support from his family and that they only seemed interested in what they could get. On the way to dinner, Jeremy stopped off at Bourtree cottage where he telephoned Ann Eaton. ‘I don’t mind you having things,’ was the gist of the message, ‘but I’d rather you did it whilst I’m at the house.’
The three of them dined at the Caribbean Cottage. At the end of the evening they returned to Goldhanger. Virginia Greaves spent the night in bed with Jeremy. The seduction was pivotal, in that it rekindled an affair which had apparently fizzled out years before.
At the time, it seemed nothing more than the comforting of a bereaved and bewildered young man by a solicitous and affectionate former girlfriend. But it was to sow a seed of jealously in the troubled heart of Julie Mugford.
Jeremy had arranged to meet Julie on the Saturday morning, so he called her with an excuse and and said he’d be there later. Then he drove Virginia home. Her mother was pleased to see him again, offered her condolences over the tragedy and invited him to stay for lunch. Despite his promise to Julie, Jeremy accepted the invitation, and sat out in the garden on his own while Virginia and Mrs Greaves prepared lunch in the kitchen. When Virginia wandered back outside, Jere,y took her hand and told her how much he still cared for her, even though their affair had ended years before. Jeremy added that he wanted to be around people who cared for him, rather than with his grasping relations. After lunch the pair returned to Goldhanger. In the car, Virginia turned to Jeremy. ‘Do you want me to be sympathetic,’ she asked, ‘or would you rather I didn’t mention what’s happened?’
‘No’ Jeremy replied, ‘I just want to be around happy people, and I don’t want to be alone’
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RSbCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT129&lpg=PT129&dq=brett+collins+virginia+greaves&source=bl&ots=UKdsfPz1kf&sig=ACfU3U0uEfZ9E7s5AORDZHhMG8p52_-tnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijytbV75fwAhVVZxUIHWUtDtcQ6AEwEnoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=brett%20collins%20virginia%20greaves&f=false
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Journalist Roger Wilkes stated in his book ‘Blood Relations’
‘On Friday one of Jeremy’s old girlfriends, Virginia Greaves, made a chance reappearance. Virginia a twenty three year old personnel assistant, had been a member of the Frog and Beans’ drinking set for about three years; she had been a girlfriend of Michael Deckers at one time, and had had an affair with Jeremy in the days before Sue Ford arrived on the scene. At the time of the Bamber killings, she hadn’t seen him for over a year. She had sent him a condolences card, but had received no response. Then through Michael Deckers, she had heard that Jeremy was trying to find someone to rent Sheila’s old flat in Maida Vale and to act as landlady when Jeremy himself wasn’t there. The protest appealed to Virginia Greaves, and she telephoned Jeremy at his cottage. He was out, so she left a message on his answering machine. On Friday afternoon Jeremy returned her call.
After some conversation about the Maida Vale flat, Jeremy invited Virginia Greaves out to dinner with himself and Brett Collins. Julie was still in London. Virginia agreed, and that evening Jeremy arrived at her family’s cottage near Colchester to pick her up. In the car, Jeremy complained about the behaviour of his surviving relations, saying they were forever in and out of White House farm and helping themselves to it’s contents. He told Virginia Greaves that he was getting no support from his family and that they only seemed interested in what they could get. On the way to dinner, Jeremy stopped off at Bourtree cottage where he telephoned Ann Eaton. ‘I don’t mind you having things,’ was the gist of the message, ‘but I’d rather you did it whilst I’m at the house.’
The three of them dined at the Caribbean Cottage. At the end of the evening they returned to Goldhanger. Virginia Greaves spent the night in bed with Jeremy. The seduction was pivotal, in that it rekindled an affair which had apparently fizzled out years before.
At the time, it seemed nothing more than the comforting of a bereaved and bewildered young man by a solicitous and affectionate former girlfriend. But it was to sow a seed of jealously in the troubled heart of Julie Mugford.’
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RSbCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT129&lpg=PT129&dq=brett+collins+virginia+greaves&source=bl&ots=UKdsfPz1kf&sig=ACfU3U0uEfZ9E7s5AORDZHhMG8p52_-tnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijytbV75fwAhVVZxUIHWUtDtcQ6AEwEnoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=brett%20collins%20virginia%20greaves&f=false
The ‘jealousy’ narrative was manufactured by Bamber, male lawyers and male journalists.
Why would Julie be ‘jealous’ of other females if she was starting to come to terms with the fact he’d conned her and had killed his family; ie: was a mass murderer and child killer?
I don’t agree with Scott Lomax’s misogynistic interpretation either
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Brett and Jeremy's girlfriend? look for a lawyer... https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563 (https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563)
The first photo is of Brett Collins and Angela Greaves (according to Getty), the second of Anji Greaves. Compare and contrast...
Did both Angela (Anji) and Virginia Greaves attend Bamber’s murder trial?
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/mr-brett-collins-and-angela-greaves-the-29-year-old-news-photo/830974720
Anji was in a hotel when the verdict came back
And the Sun newspaper stated she was 30 years old https://www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/television/4959075/jeremy-bambers-deluded-cheerleaders-are-a-disgrace-he-is-guilty-of-monstrous-white-house-farm-murders/
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Brett and Jeremy's girlfriend? look for a lawyer... https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563 (https://youtu.be/T2IWwUJXZ8g?t=2563)
The first photo is of Brett Collins and Angela Greaves (according to Getty)
Is this a photo of Virginia Greaves and Brett Collins as opposed Angela and Brett?
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Is this a photo of Virginia Greaves and Brett Collins as opposed Angela and Brett?
According to BC latest interview (and Getty Images) that photo is of himself and Angela Greaves, Virginia's elder sister. They both set out to find a lawyer for Jeremy. Angela was thirty years old, six years older than Jeremy, had a previous affair with him, but it was Virginia, his latest squeeze who was at the Morshead Mansions flat when Julie rang and she answered the phone. Angela (Anji) posed as Jeremy's current girlfriend because Virginia was about to get married to another man and wanted to keep this info from the press. That's how I understand it.
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"................so she left a message on his answering machine............". Interesting. There's been a dispute -elsewhere- about the existence of such, supporters preferring to believe there wasn't one.
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According to BC latest interview (and Getty Images) that photo is of himself and Angela Greaves, Virginia's elder sister. They both set out to find a lawyer for Jeremy. Angela was thirty years old, six years older than Jeremy, had a previous affair with him, but it was Virginia, his latest squeeze who was at the Morshead Mansions flat when Julie rang and she answered the phone. Angela (Anji) posed as Jeremy's current girlfriend because Virginia was about to get married to another man and wanted to keep this info from the press. That's how I understand it.
If they had a previous ‘affair’ - which one of them was in a relationship or married?
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According to BC latest interview (and Getty Images) that photo is of himself and Angela Greaves, Virginia's elder sister. They both set out to find a lawyer for Jeremy. Angela was thirty years old, six years older than Jeremy, had a previous affair with him, but it was Virginia, his latest squeeze who was at the Morshead Mansions flat when Julie rang and she answered the phone. Angela (Anji) posed as Jeremy's current girlfriend because Virginia was about to get married to another man and wanted to keep this info from the press. That's how I understand it.
Didn’t Brett say Jeremy was dating them both?
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According to BC latest interview (and Getty Images) that photo is of himself and Angela Greaves, Virginia's elder sister. They both set out to find a lawyer for Jeremy. Angela was thirty years old, six years older than Jeremy, had a previous affair with him, but it was Virginia, his latest squeeze who was at the Morshead Mansions flat when Julie rang and she answered the phone. Angela (Anji) posed as Jeremy's current girlfriend because Virginia was about to get married to another man and wanted to keep this info from the press. That's how I understand it.
Did the sisters split the money paid for the interview and does anyone know how much the newspaper paid?
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If Virginia Greaves was 23 years old around the time of the murders - how old was she when she allegedly ‘had an affair’ with Bamber ‘years before Sue Ford’?
Journalist Roger Wilkes stated in his book ‘Blood Relations’
‘On Friday one of Jeremy’s old girlfriends, Virginia Greaves, made a chance reappearance. Virginia a twenty three year old personnel assistant, had been a member of the Frog and Beans’ drinking set for about three years; she had been a girlfriend of Michael Deckers at one time, and had had an affair with Jeremy in the days before Sue Ford arrived on the scene. At the time of the Bamber killings, she hadn’t seen him for over a year. She had sent him a condolences card, but had received no response. Then through Michael Deckers, she had heard that Jeremy was trying to find someone to rent Sheila’s old flat in Maida Vale and to act as landlady when Jeremy himself wasn’t there. The protest appealed to Virginia Greaves, and she telephoned Jeremy at his cottage. He was out, so she left a message on his answering machine. On Friday afternoon Jeremy returned her call.
After some conversation about the Maida Vale flat, Jeremy invited Virginia Greaves out to dinner with himself and Brett Collins. Julie was still in London. Virginia agreed, and that evening Jeremy arrived at her family’s cottage near Colchester to pick her up. In the car, Jeremy complained about the behaviour of his surviving relations, saying they were forever in and out of White House farm and helping themselves to it’s contents. He told Virginia Greaves that he was getting no support from his family and that they only seemed interested in what they could get. On the way to dinner, Jeremy stopped off at Bourtree cottage where he telephoned Ann Eaton. ‘I don’t mind you having things,’ was the gist of the message, ‘but I’d rather you did it whilst I’m at the house.’
The three of them dined at the Caribbean Cottage. At the end of the evening they returned to Goldhanger. Virginia Greaves spent the night in bed with Jeremy. The seduction was pivotal, in that it rekindled and affair which had apparently fizzled out years before.
At the time, it seemed nothing ore than the comforting of a bereaved and bewildered young man by a solicitous and affectionate former girlfriend. But it was to sow a seed of jealously in the troubled heart of Julie Mugford.
Jeremy had arranged to meet Julie on the Saturday morning, so he called her with an excuse and and said he’d be there later. Then he drove Virginia home. Her mother was pleased to see him again, offered her condolences over the tragedy and invited him to stay for lunch. Despite his promise to Julie, Jeremy accepted the invitation, and sat out in the garden on his own while Virginia and Mrs Greaves prepared lunch in the kitchen. When Virginia wandered back outside, Jere,y took her hand and told her how much he still cared for her, even though their affair had ended years before. Jeremy added that he wanted to be around people who cared for him, rather than with his grasping relations. After lunch the pair returned to Goldhanger. In the car, Virginia turned to Jeremy. ‘Docyou want me to be sympathetic,’ she asked, ‘or would you rather I didn’t mention what’s happened?’
‘No’ Jeremy replied, ‘I just want to be around happy people, and I don’t want to be alone’
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RSbCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT129&lpg=PT129&dq=brett+collins+virginia+greaves&source=bl&ots=UKdsfPz1kf&sig=ACfU3U0uEfZ9E7s5AORDZHhMG8p52_-tnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijytbV75fwAhVVZxUIHWUtDtcQ6AEwEnoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=brett%20collins%20virginia%20greaves&f=false
So Roger Wilkes has the above wrong - as does Holly Goodhead ?
Although Holly seems to have known it was Angela ⬇️
He formed intimate relationships with Suzette Ford, Julie Mugford and Anji Greaves. Noone came forward with any adverse comments about the relationship per se.
This was 29/30 year old Angela not 23 year old personnel assistant Virginia
I'm not sure what you mean by "highly paid defence"? When JB was interviewed by EP under caution he was represented by the duty solicitor Bruce Bowler. JB's girlfriend post JM, Virginia Greaves, secured the services of Kingsley Napley via legal aid and JB was represented by Paul Terzeon. This was Kingsley Napley's first case funded via legal aid. As such they were unfamiliar with the funding of expert witnesses and it has been said this was to JB's detriment. I understand with the benefit of hindsight JB regrets not continuing with Bruce Bowler.
Have you any documentary evidence for the "ring of truth".
It was Angela not Virginia
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According to BC latest interview (and Getty Images) that photo is of himself and Angela Greaves, Virginia's elder sister. They both set out to find a lawyer for Jeremy. Angela was thirty years old, six years older than Jeremy, had a previous affair with him, but it was Virginia, his latest squeeze who was at the Morshead Mansions flat when Julie rang and she answered the phone. Angela (Anji) posed as Jeremy's current girlfriend because Virginia was about to get married to another man and wanted to keep this info from the press. That's how I understand it.
Was this ⬇️ Angela or Virginia?
JM wasn’t furious she actually stated she was annoyed (top of page 29 of her WS)
“I was annoyed with him about the call as he had told me he had asked out another women. The phone then rang again and it was Virginia. I walked out of the room and into the bedroom as I was so angry. I picked a Chinese box of Jeremy and threw it against a mirror which smashed. When that broke he came into the room with the phone, still on it to Virginia and then put it down.
He asked me why I did it and I said it was a cruel thing to do to ask out another women whilst I was there
He became very cross and I slapped his face.
He then got hold of my right arm and twisted it up my back, pushed me onto the bed and then he raised his arm as if to hit me
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"................so she left a message on his answering machine............". Interesting. There's been a dispute -elsewhere- about the existence of such, supporters preferring to believe there wasn't one.
The answering machine argument has been done here on this thread too
How does it matter?
Yes, if he already had the AM prior to murdering his family, it could be queried why it didn’t kick in before he reached it when he claimed Nevill phoned him...but it’s all too late in the day now. The case is done and dusted (with/without queries the AM) so it makes no difference.
If it was proven JB had the machine BEFORE he killed everyone it would just reinforce his guilt. But he’d just say he hadn’t switched it on, so again, it’s all a pointless exercise.
Virginia Greaves certainly left a message on his AM at Goldhanger, she said so, and it’s in CAL’s book. But that may have been after the murders so doesn’t prove anything, except that he did have one at that time.
Was it Virginia who left the message on the answering machine or Angela it was after apparently Anji Bamber viewed as his girlfriend at the time?
And Bamber apparently asked Virginia to move in with him even though he knew she was getting married to someone else? ⬇️
And just because 2 days after the above he went to Angela Greaves flat in Kensington, made a pass at her and kissed her, discussed marriage with her and told her he was fed up with Julie (All supposedly whilst also dating and sleeping with her sister Virginia and had apparently asked Virginia to move in with him) doesn’t make him a murderer
Did Carol Ann Lee know Bamber’s ‘former girlfriend’ was 29/30 year old supposed personnel assistant Angela Greaves not 23 year old Virginia?
Who’s JM meant to be referring to here?
“Occasionally choking on her words, she told the court about the night at Caterham Road, when she had begged him to remain with her, and the angry confrontation at Sheila’s flat when she discovered that Jeremy had begun dating a former girlfriend,”
(Courtesy of Carol Ann Lee from her book, ‘The Murders at White House Farm’)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=the+sun+anji+greaves+jeremy+bamber&source=bl&ots=h8PnNHTkTl&sig=ACfU3U1NpuMY9WW_GJ0UKEtiEAeZmVwONg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwics4rWi4LpAhWEoFwKHYIID8oQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20sun%20anji%20greaves%20jeremy%20bamber&f=false
And how did Julie know ‘at once’ it was Virginia and not Angela ⬇️ ?
Not read or seen any w/s of what either sister said. Only CAL's interpretation of what occured...
'Brett called at the cafe to remind Jeremy that the antiques dealer was due, so they all returned to the flat.
While the dealer was looking through the items from the farm, the telephone rang.Jeremy answered, speaking ‘in a friendly manner’ to the caller.
‘Who is it?’ Julie asked, growing suspicious.
‘Virginia,’ he said.
Julie knew at once that he meant Virginia Greaves, and asked him to put the phone down.When he carried on talking, she cut the call herself.
They then began to argue and Jeremy admitted he was seeing Virginia.
When the telephone rang again and he answered it, Julie stormed through to Sheila’s bedroom.
‘I was so angry,’ she remembered. ‘I picked up a Chinese box of Jeremy’s and threw it against a mirror, which smashed.’
Still on the line, Virginia heard the splintering glass. ‘What’s that?’ she asked.
Jeremy replied, ‘Oh, Julie just smashing some plates up.’
There was another crash.
‘What’s that?’ asked Virginia again.
‘Julie’s just put her wrists through the window.’
Shocked, Virginia told him definitely, ‘I don’t want anything to do with that and I’ll speak to you some time.’
Was it Angela Greaves who had previously dated Mike Deckers? ⬇️
Journalist Roger Wilkes stated in his book ‘Blood Relations’
‘Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night. Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks. Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend. While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins. In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans. Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale. Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.
Who and what were Roger Wilkes sources for the above?
Didn’t Anji Greaves claim Bamber had proposed to her? Why then is Bamber claiming to Charles Marsden Virginia (Anji’s sister) would be moving in with his and Brett Collins?
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What does Angela Greaves witness statement to police say and why is only Virginia’s statement referred to and not hers?
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Not read or seen any w/s of what either sister said. Only CAL's interpretation of what occured...
'Brett called at the cafe to remind Jeremy that the antiques dealer was due, so they all returned to the flat.
While the dealer was looking through the items from the farm, the telephone rang.Jeremy answered, speaking ‘in a friendly manner’ to the caller.
‘Who is it?’ Julie asked, growing suspicious.
‘Virginia,’ he said.
Julie knew at once that he meant Virginia Greaves, and asked him to put the phone down.When he carried on talking, she cut the call herself.
They then began to argue and Jeremy admitted he was seeing Virginia.
When the telephone rang again and he answered it, Julie stormed through to Sheila’s bedroom.
‘I was so angry,’ she remembered. ‘I picked up a Chinese box of Jeremy’s and threw it against a mirror, which smashed.’
Still on the line, Virginia heard the splintering glass. ‘What’s that?’ she asked.
Jeremy replied, ‘Oh, Julie just smashing some plates up.’
There was another crash.
‘What’s that?’ asked Virginia again.
‘Julie’s just put her wrists through the window.’
Shocked, Virginia told him definitely, ‘I don’t want anything to do with that and I’ll speak to you some time.’
Bamber was gaslighting Julie and Virginia (Presuming it was her and not Angela who phoned?)
Jeremy replied, ‘Oh, Julie just smashing some plates up.’
There was another crash.
‘What’s that?’ asked Virginia again.
‘Julie’s just put her wrists through the window.’
But no mention in any of Julie’s statements she ‘put her wrists through the window’ or was ‘smashing some plates up’
I suspect this didn’t happen
But why did Bamber say this to Virginia?