Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on July 11, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Title: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 11, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
They had full view of the patio and steps up to the patio doors. They were only 50 metres away. They were within earshot. Had any of the children yelled them they would have heard.
It was illuminated by the nearby street lamp which was in line with the steps and patio. The sitting room light was left on. The patio doors were closed and an attempt was made to close the curtains over these doors. Now I have tried very very hard and I am unable to close the curtains inside the room when I slide my patio doors closed from the outside. Can you fully close your curtains from outside when you close your patio doors Faith?
So here we have a situation where the curtains are partially open with a light on in the room. Anyone trying to get in would be silhouetted in that gap by the lights inside. No abductor would risk that in full view. So the Mccanns would feel completely safe. Think about it Faith.
In the sleepy little place that PdL was it felt safe.
Amaral himself, when he was trying to prove his theory that no abductor went into the apartment, said that no abductor would dare to go in via the patio doors cos Kate and Gerry were too close and overlooked the patio doors
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 12, 2013, 02:13:30 AM
They had full view of the patio and steps up to the patio doors. They were only 50 metres away. They were within earshot. Had any of the children yelled them they would have heard.
It was illuminated by the nearby street lamp which was in line with the steps and patio. The sitting room light was left on. The patio doors were closed and an attempt was made to close the curtains over these doors. Now I have tried very very hard and I am unable to close the curtains inside the room when I slide my patio doors closed from the outside. Can you fully close your curtains from outside when you close your patio doors Faith?
So here we have a situation where the curtains are partially open with a light on in the room. Anyone trying to get in would be silhouetted in that gap by the lights inside. No abductor would risk that in full view. So the Mccanns would feel completely safe. Think about it Faith.
In the sleepy little place that PdL was it felt safe.
Amaral himself, when he was trying to prove his theory that no abductor went into the apartment, said that no abductor would dare to go in via the patio doors cos Kate and Gerry were too close and overlooked the patio doors
It is actually possible to go in the small gate and up the steps to the patio without being seen from the tapas bar. All one had to do was to crouch down as they went up the steps.
The street light only lit the gate and a few steps at the bottom, the remained of the steps were in darkness.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Eleanor on July 12, 2013, 05:31:50 AM
This is obvious to some, John, and what I first thought many moons ago. The abductor wouldn't even have had to open the patio door very far to crawl in. And I don't suppose he would have been standing on his dignity. After that he simply had to hand Madeleine through the window to an accomplice, and leave by the same route, or leave by the door. And in case anyone is wondering, a PJ Officer was filmed climbing in the window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 12, 2013, 06:46:59 AM
I agree with John and Eleanor ( and their previous two posts above )
If there was an abduction then the secluded and darkened entrance up the steps and through the already unlocked patio doors is the only logical conclusion to draw
No need for a 'duplicate key' ... and no need for an open window
See, I keep coming back to that open window ... if there had been an abduction, (using the most logical quick entry and exit through the unlocked patio doors ) it simply would not have been opened
It just wouldn't
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2013, 08:12:24 AM
I agree with John and Eleanor ( and their previous two posts above )
If there was an abduction then the secluded and darkened entrance up the steps and through the already unlocked patio doors is the only logical conclusion to draw
No need for a 'duplicate key' ... and no need for an open window
See, I keep coming back to that open window ... if there had been an abduction, (using the most logical quick entry and exit through the unlocked patio doors ) it simply would not have been opened
It just wouldn't
Even if they did get in via the patio door, the most logical exit would be through the front door.
Before doing that they may have opened the window/shutters to see out - to make sure the coast was clear - and if the abductor did go in via the patio door then he would have no way of knowing what was going on at the front of the apartment - while he was round the back and inside - and so would need to find out.
There was no way you could do that check from the front door because it was recessed so far back and so you couldn't see the whole area in front of the apartment from there. But you could from the window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Eleanor on July 12, 2013, 08:19:52 AM
Excellent point, Benice. Or to communicate with an accomplice.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 12, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
Excellent point, Benice. Or to communicate with an accomplice.
But then both you and Benice are unecessarily complicating things
An abduction could, most simply, and efficiently, have been accomplished by a swift entrance and exit through the secluded path to the already unlocked patio doors
Why not take that as a starting point, at least ? ... why the need to introduce complexities that are not necessary for an abduction to have taken place ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Eleanor on July 12, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
The abductor could not have left by the patio door, He was seen by Jane Tanner leaving from the front, and Gerry was near the gate talking.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 12, 2013, 08:37:15 AM
The abductor could not have left by the patio door, He was seen by Jane Tanner leaving from the front, and Gerry was near the gate talking.
That's problem Eleanor
Instead of looking at the possibility of abduction with open minds, there seems to be a determined effort to make it 'fit' the precise 9.15pm abduction that the McCanns, themselves, insist on
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2013, 08:39:28 AM
Instead of looking at the possibility of abduction with open minds, there seems to be a determined effort to make it 'fit' the precise 9.15pm abduction that the McCanns, themselves, insist on
I accept JT's timing/sighting because I believe she is telling the truth. I believe that because no-one can come up with a reason why she should lie which is even remotely credible. It may be that her times are not accurate down the last second and may be a few minutes adrift but that doesn't make any significant difference to anything.
There is no need to try to make anything 'fit' - SY have already done that with their forensic analysis of the timelines.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Eleanor on July 12, 2013, 08:51:55 AM
There were three possible exits from that appartment. One seems more likely than the others.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2013, 08:59:34 AM
I accept JT's timing/sighting because I believe she is telling the truth. I believe that because no-one can come up with a reason why she should lie which is even remotely credible. It may be that her times are not accurate down the last second and may be a few minutes adrift but that doesn't make any significant difference to anything.
There is no need to try to make anything 'fit' - SY have already done that with their forensic analysis of the timelines.
What forensic analysis ?
If SY had even the simplest clue, this case would be over.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 12, 2013, 09:06:49 AM
I accept JT's timing/sighting because I believe she is telling the truth. I believe that because no-one can come up with a reason why she should lie which is even remotely credible. It may be that her times are not accurate down the last second and may be a few minutes adrift but that doesn't make any significant difference to anything.
There is no need to try to make anything 'fit' - SY have already done that with their forensic analysis of the timelines.
That is not an accurate statement
Scotland Yard have said that there was an opportunity for an abductor to have struck that night ( without specifying the most likely time for it have, possibly, occured ) ... they, most certainly, have not said that the man Jane Tanner saw was, or might even be 'likely' to have been an abductor
It is misleading to suggest that they have
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2013, 09:26:45 AM
Scotland Yard have said that there was an opportunity for an abductor to have struck that night ( without specifying the most likely time for it have, possibly, occured ) ... they, most certainly, have not said that the man Jane Tanner saw was, or might even be 'likely' to have been an abductor
It is misleading to suggest that they have
Just because they haven't told us the details of their forensic analysis - doesn't mean they don't exist.
It's quite obvious that they will have analysed the times everyone has given - including Jayne Tanner's.
The fact that SY have stated that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case would appear to confirm that they believe JT's statement re her sighting and accept the timeline she gave. They could not have made that statement if they thought JT had lied.
Quote from Andy Redwood ''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive.''
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2013, 09:41:52 AM
Just because they haven't told us the details of their forensic analysis - doesn't mean they don't exist.
It's quite obvious that they will have analysed the times everyone has given - including Jayne Tanner's.
The fact that SY have stated that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case would appear to confirm that they believe JT's statement re her sighting and accept the timeline she gave. They could not have made that statement if they thought JT had lied.
Quote from Andy Redwood ''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive.''
Just as Redwood and co., created a timeline for Barry George.
Enough siad
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 12, 2013, 10:31:13 AM
Believing there was a window of opportunity for abduction, but discarding Ms Tanner's sighting for plausibility reasons, wouldn't imply that Ms Tanner lied. She could very well have seen a father carrying his child and wanting to avoid time consuming troubles. Then the other carrier would be the right one.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 12, 2013, 11:40:25 AM
But then both you and Benice are unecessarily complicating things
An abduction could, most simply, and efficiently, have been accomplished by a swift entrance and exit through the secluded path to the already unlocked patio doors
Why not take that as a starting point, at least ? ... why the need to introduce complexities that are not necessary for an abduction to have taken place ?
Absolutely and why open the window with all the risks that entailed.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2013, 11:43:53 AM
At the end of the day we have to be guided by the evidence. A window and a shutter which was previously closed and the lack of any footprints on the sills is indicative of the abducted child having been passed out of the window to an accomplice. The manner in which the child was being carried when seen by Tanner and the similarity of her clothing.
You have to remember that lifting the shutter was risky and there is only one reason for taking that risk.
All this all adds up to just one thing...
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 12, 2013, 11:46:13 AM
At the end of the day we have to be guided by the evidence. A window and a shutter which was previously closed and the lack of any footprints on the sills is indicative of the abducted child having been passed out of the window to an accomplice. The manner in which the child was being carried when seen by Tanner and the similarity of her clothing.
You have to remember that lifting the shutter was risky and there is only one reason for taking that risk.
All this all adds up to just one thing...
Or that Kate McCann opened the window and shutters to stage an abduction. The evidence would equally support that theory.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 12, 2013, 11:57:59 AM
At the end of the day we have to be guided by the evidence. A window and a shutter which was previously closed and the lack of any footprints on the sills is indicative of the abducted child having been passed out of the window to an accomplice. The manner in which the child was being carried when seen by Tanner and the similarity of her clothing.
You have to remember that lifting the shutter was risky and there is only one reason for taking that risk.
All this all adds up to just one thing...
Did youn know, that there were no fibres on the window at all , Angelo?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 12, 2013, 01:36:36 PM
No fibres on the widow at all
.... and only Kates finger prints. Aw, come on, no way!
Every single person would have tried that window and leaned out looking for what had happened to Madeleine. There would have been dozens of finger prints.. It is things like this that make me wonder if Amaral was already fitting Kate up?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 12, 2013, 01:48:48 PM
.... and only Kates finger prints. Aw, come on, no way!
Every single person would have tried that window and leaned out looking for what had happened to Madeleine. There would have been dozens of finger prints.. It is things like this that make me wonder if Amaral was already fitting Kate up?
So the forensic lady seen dusting the window/shutters was in on it, was she ? Or perhaps the forensic lab ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 12, 2013, 03:28:21 PM
.... and only Kates finger prints. Aw, come on, no way!
Every single person would have tried that window and leaned out looking for what had happened to Madeleine. There would have been dozens of finger prints.. It is things like this that make me wonder if Amaral was already fitting Kate up?
Yes where's Gerry's, fingerprints and Diane Websters. Weren't they supposed to have touched the blind? That forensic woman, was a waste of space. it wasn't Sylvia Baptista, was it? Maintenance Manager (key holder), translator, in on all the dog checks, she seemed to be running the show, from start to finish!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 12, 2013, 03:45:23 PM
Yes where's Gerry's, fingerprints and Diane Websters. Weren't they supposed to have touched the blind? That forensic woman, was a waste of space. it wasn't Sylvia Baptista, was it? Maintenance Manager (key holder), translator, in on all the dog checks, she seemed to be running the show, from start to finish!
Oh, that's interesting DCI
Haven't taken much notice of Sylvia Baptista tbh
Maintenance Manager Key holdere Translator in on all the dog checks seemingly running the show
Me thinks that maybe I should be taking more notice of her. Doesn't hurt to look at peeps.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 04:37:50 PM
Yes where's Gerry's, fingerprints and Diane Websters. Weren't they supposed to have touched the blind? That forensic woman, was a waste of space. it wasn't Sylvia Baptista, was it? Maintenance Manager (key holder), translator, in on all the dog checks, she seemed to be running the show, from start to finish!
I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.
As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy. Even in such a lunatic scenario how would she know which ones to clean or leave LOL, I despair 8-)(--)
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 12, 2013, 04:50:34 PM
I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.
As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy. 8-)(--)
Come off it, Red
No way would that window only have Kates finger prints on it. Everyone trooped into that room and searched. Are you suggesting that no-one looked out of that window? No-one touched that window?
Thinking cap on lass.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 12, 2013, 05:00:01 PM
I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.
As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy. 8-)(--)
Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you @)(++(*
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 05:05:42 PM
Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you @)(++(*
I dont doubt it, next it will be silvia batista subliminally cueing the dogs 8-)(--)
Such ingratitude and veiled or not so veiled aspersions cast on anyone who was tryng to help and only doing their jobs, straw clutching comes to mind, laters
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 12, 2013, 05:06:36 PM
Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you @)(++(*
So, do you think that no-body would look out of that window? When the thought at first was that either she had been abducted thru it, or she had walked out herself thru it.
What do you think
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Mr Moderator on July 12, 2013, 05:38:42 PM
.... and only Kates finger prints. Aw, come on, no way!
Every single person would have tried that window and leaned out looking for what had happened to Madeleine. There would have been dozens of finger prints.. It is things like this that make me wonder if Amaral was already fitting Kate up?
Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value. There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value. There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.
Angelo, All prints found were recorded and investigated, whether complete, incomplete, smudgd multiples, identified or not. Its not true that only clear full identified prints were recorded and identified or not. Unless I misread your post.
Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value. There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.
Angelo
Bundleman was carrying ?Madeleine in a lying down position. That is tiring, so almost everyone would carry a 3-4 year old in the way that Gerry carried S*** down the steps from the plane. That is much less tiring.
Had Madeleine been passed thru that relatively narrow window, I think she would have been passed over in that upright position, becos it is so narrow. i.e the position that Gerry carried S*** down the plane steps. If she had been passed lying down then it is doubtful that fibres could have been avoided on the window frame. As there were no fibres, if she went thru there, she almost certainly was upright.
If she had been passed in that upright position, why would bundleman then lay her flat in his arms to carry. It is very tiring after quite a short time.
Apart from the front door being so dark and hidden, I think that the way that bundleman was carrying Madeleine verifies that she was carried out via that front door. The fact that her head ended up on the other arm, after the pass-over, also supports this.
I truly think that the front door is indicated in every way
It also troubles me that so much money and effort has been thrown at Pat Brown proving it wasn't the front door, but the window - yet at the same time showing that the window could not have been used cos it was too overlooked and brilliantly lit. In other words trying to falsely prove Amarals theory as being correct.
All the fanfare for the "lovely" Pat - * Criminal Profiler * extraordinaire, all the way from the US of A. The mega welcome from Tony Bennett and then from Amaral.
All those lovely trees gone, ruthlessly cut down! A huge search light fitted where there was none before ... and a professional photographer taking the pictures to * prove it *. What a farce.
JeeZ, Quite honestly it stinks
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2013, 06:35:21 PM
Angelo, All prints found were recorded and investigated, whether complete, incomplete, smudgd multiples, identified or not. Its not true that only clear full identified prints were recorded and identified or not. Unless I misread your post.
So lets see?? Only one finger print was identified even though dozens of people have opened and closed the window and the shutter. You forget about the several others which were unusable.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2013, 06:40:51 PM
Bundleman was carrying Madeleine in a lying down position. That is tiring, so almost everyone would carry a 3-4 year old in the way that Gerry carried S*** down the steps from the plane. That is much less tiring.
Had Madeleine been passed through that relatively narrow window, I think she would have been passed over in that upright position, because it is so narrow. i.e the position that Gerry carried S*** down the plane steps. If she had been passed lying down then it is doubtful that fibres could have been avoided on the window frame. As there were no fibres, if she went through there, she almost certainly was upright.
If she had been passed in that upright position, why would bundleman then lay her flat in his arms to carry. It is very tiring after quite a short time.
Tricky one Sadie but Madeleine could have been lifted from her bed in a limp posture and passed sideways out of the window...no mystery there...she didn't have to be in an upright position. I also think the reason the carrier whom you refer to as bundleman didn't want to put her in an upright position in case he woke her. 8)--))
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 06:45:11 PM
So lets see?? Only one finger print was identified even though dozens of people have opened and closed the window and the shutter. You forget about the several others which were unusable.
- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one. - Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further - The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat - Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations
Edited
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2013, 07:02:15 PM
- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one. - Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further - The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat - Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations
Edited
Yes. Five prints belonging to one individual. Windows are cleaned but the frames are rarely cleaned to the extent that finger prints are removed completely. In any event one doesn't open a window by touching the glass and that is the only part a cleaner will routinely clean.
Red, we aren't looking for the 'ordinarily', we are looking for the unique situation and if an abductor gained access via the shutter his or her prints would be on the outer frame unless he used gloves in which case there wouldn't be any prints to find. 8(0(*
What is surprising though is that Gerrys prints aren't on the frame since he claims to have played with them in order to establish if they could be raised from the outside.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 12, 2013, 07:38:32 PM
the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further
Mr McCann said he shut the window. If you can open, force and shut shutters and windows with words, why would you open, force and shut them in reality ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 12, 2013, 07:49:15 PM
Tricky one Sadie but Madeleine could have been lifted from her bed in a limp posture and passed sideways out of the window...no mystery there...she didn't have to be in an upright position. I also think the reason the carrier whom you refer to as bundleman didn't want to put her in an upright position in case he woke her. 8)--))
Are you snarling at me Angelo?
Have I said something that I ought not? Cos I dont know what it is.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 07:49:37 PM
Yes. Five prints belonging to one individual. Windows are cleaned but the frames are rarely cleaned to the extent that finger prints are removed completely. In any event one doesn't open a window by touching the glass and that is the only part a cleaner will routinely clean.
Red, we aren't looking for the 'ordinarily', we are looking for the unique situation and if an abductor gained access via the shutter his or her prints would be on the outer frame unless he used gloves in which case there wouldn't be any prints to find. 8(0(*
What is surprising though is that Gerrys prints aren't on the frame since he claims to have played with them in order to establish if they could be raised from the outside.
Im not going to go round the houses Angelo, I said my piece in my previous posts on the fingerprint issue
There were prints found on the outside of the shutters, smudged/incomplete, they were most probably Gerrys and Dianes
IF any abductor opened them then he used gloves, as no alien prints were found on the window End of the day, if anyone wanted to get in or out, the window would be the last place IMO, nothing stopping these so called mastermind abductors who watched the place for days and were so organised to just drilling through the front door keyhole, snatching the child and leaving same way in seconds, rather than fumbling with shutters that wouldnt stay up if opened from outside, but, oh they might have reached in once they raised them and used the internal mechanism to make sure they stayed up, thats IF the the actual window was open for them to get in! And of course, no sign of damage on the window. Then these highly organised masterminds who planned it meticulously all week and knew their movements, decide to strike at the exact same time Gerry is doing a check, and then, after gotten away with it, and gotten away with making a racket in the dead peace of the night opening that shutter, then flounder and have one of them wandering the streets 45 minutes later and along the same route they were spotted the first time, carrying a child, risking being spotted again! And knowing! A 9.30 check will have been made so the alarm would have been raised.
The whole Jane Tanner, Jez Wilkins chatting at the side whilst Madeleine is being abducted just does not ring true or right
Computer says no and the question remains why they INSIST this was the time when they have no evidence to say it was over and above eg the Smith sighting which is miles more credible in so many ways, and of course, neither sightings might have been of Madeleine. Jane Tanner saw in her own words * a pair of feet and the bottom of the pyjamas* and nothing else. the Smiths saw a blonde girl wearing long sleeved pyjamas (not short sleeved) and trousers.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 07:57:12 PM
Mr McCann said he shut the window. If you can open, force and shut shutters and windows with words, why would you open, force and shut them in reality ?
Thinking about this for a few minutes Anne
@)(++(*
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 13, 2013, 12:38:49 AM
- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one. - Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further - The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat - Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations
Edited
When it comes to fingerprints on the window - one would expect (as this was important) that the cleaners would have been specifically asked by the PJ if they had cleaned the windows, and if so, when. I have not come across a statement which throws any light on this. Has anyone else?
Kate and Gerry closed the shutters and window the day they arrived and left them like that for the rest of the week - and so Kate's fingerprints could have been there since that time.
Most people open windows by using the handle, so it's not that surprising if no other prints were found on the actual window pane. On the other hand Kate had been in that apartment for 6 days, and so it would not be at all surprising to find her fingerprints anywhere - especially in the children's bedroom IMO.
Were the window handles forensically tested?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 13, 2013, 01:55:31 AM
End of the day, if anyone wanted to get in or out, the window would be the last place IMO, nothing stopping these so called mastermind abductors who watched the place for days and were so organised to just drilling through the front door keyhole, snatching the child and leaving same way in seconds,SNIP/-
I agree about the front window not being useed, Red, but with keys obviously around (burglaries via front doors in nearby flats, without any damage to the doors or locks in the weeks before) then the hidden dark front door would be the obvious choice of any break in merchant
Jane Tanner saw in her own words * a pair of feet and the bottom of the pyjamas* and nothing else. the Smiths saw a blonde girl wearing long sleeved pyjamas (not short sleeved) and trousers.
Pyjamas
Martin Smiths statement — She was wearing light-coloured pyjamas. He cannot state with certainty the colour. She was not covered by any wrap or blanket. He cannot confirm whether she was barefoot but in his group, they spoke about the child having no cover on her feet.
Aoife Smiths statement — She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton. — She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.
Peter Smiths statement — He does not remember her clothing very well but thinks it was lightweight summer clothing, light in colour. He does not remember if she was covered with any wrap or blanket. He cannot affirm if she was barefoot.
You are correct, Red, the statement of Aoife says long sleeves and Madeleines pyjamas according to pictures had short sleeves.
Seems there was nothing on either Madeleines nor this little girls feet
To me, if this is Madeleine, and I think it is, then something happened to cause a change of clothes, or additional clothing being added. Maybe she was blue with cold, maybe the chloroform(if administered) caused her to vomit down herself and her clothes were changed?
I have said it over and over that a scream was heard coming from the Staff quarters just about 50 metres north of Peter Smiths sighting on the same road. This was according to a poster on the 3A's.
I think she was taken in there, and a member of OC staff helped out ... probably the lifter. Clothes were added or changed.
I think that phone calls were made from there. After the pick up failed, I think ?bundleman headed there. for advice/ instructions ... or to inform the boat moored outside the harbour gates at Lagos, to set out. The abduction was completed and pick up required. .... and that is where so much time elapsed ... waiting for the boat to come and pick up. Need not be that particular boat, but interest has been showed in it ... maybe because it purportedly had a connectioon to Sergey malinka ....and he seems to have raised the PJ's antennae
The sailing distance would be less than 6 miles. IIRC the speed limit after dark is 10 mph (that might be nautical miles per hour, have forgotten) A man in a hurry would easily exceed that and could be there in under half an hour
These are only my thoughts and I await tbem being pulled apart.
However, I think I know where they sailed to and it fits into sightings with perfect timings
That is all I am saying
Over to you
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 13, 2013, 02:08:59 AM
heights
Martin Smiths statement — Regarding the description of the individual who carried the child he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. [Approx 5'9"- less than 5'11"]
Aoife Smiths statement — (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. [Approx 5'7" -5'9"].
Peter Smiths statement — The description of the individual who carried the child was: Caucasian, around 175 to 180 cm tall. [approx 5'9" to less tha 5'11"]
Aoife met the man on level ground so height would be easier to assess imo. The others saw him coming down the hill towards them, which might make him appear taller. Because of this and also because Aoife proved herself very observant, I favour about 1.75 metres = approx 5'9"
I have met Gerry and he cut an impressive figure. I would think he is about 6'1" to 6'2" tall.
The height difference is too great between the man seen by the Smiths and Gerry Mccann,
The man the Smiths saw was NOT Gerry Mccann. No way could Gerry be described as Aoife did ... as maybe only 5'7" tall. That is a small man. Gerry is a big man It surprised me, just how tall he is.
No wonder Amaral decided that the Smiths man was NOT Gerry.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 13, 2013, 03:27:54 PM
I'm wondering if the above two posts are too much for the [ censored word] to tackle. Too many facts?
Albeit followed by a theory, which builds on the facts ... only a theory but it fits the facts ... and might be right?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 13, 2013, 03:52:24 PM
Some very well researched and developed thoughts indeed Sadie.
Could it be that the [ censored word] appear to be running out of steam as one by one their theories evaporate just as bundleman did?
As there appears to be two different threads converging I suggest we get back to the specific topic ie. "So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?"
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 13, 2013, 04:13:57 PM
Some very well researched and developed thoughts indeed Sadie.
Could it be that the [ censored word] appear to be running out of steam as one by one their theories evaporate just as bundleman did?
As there appears to be two different threads converging I suggest we get back to the specific topic ie. "So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?"
Tell you what John shall all us '[ censored word]' and leave you all to it ? How long do you think the supporters would stick around with us gone ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 13, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
So lets see?? Only one finger print was identified even though dozens of people have opened and closed the window and the shutter. You forget about the several others which were unusable.
Its ever likely, no fingerprints were any good. No glove, and her fingers are all over the shutter. I hope that not a roll of selotape she's using @)(++(*
Truth is a moveable feast as has been a not demonstrated on this forum John. ?{)(**
Sorry but you are so wrong.
This forum prides itself on exploring and reporting the facts which eventually lead to the truth as has already been seen in cases such as Bamber, Proud, Hall and Craigie to name but some.
We are not interested in fantasy theories or bizarre speculations. The truth never changes, only some peoples perspective of it!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 13, 2013, 07:28:58 PM
So now you are accusing an independent witness of inventing stories Red? Where will it end? @)(++(*
Sorry Angelo, but you are wrong, I didnt say nor infer any such thing. You misread my post and assumed that because I said I didnt seen an abuction happening at the time they insist it must have done, that I accused anyone there at the time of lying.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 13, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
To address the substance of the thread, on the assuption that an abduction occured, we should look at all possibilites of how an abductor might have entered and exited
We do so on the basis of the evidence available :
The patio doors were closed, but unlocked
The shutters and window were wide open, but curtains closed
The front door was closed ( locked ? )
The forensic evidence suggest no-one climbed either in, or out of the open window
So, lets take each possibility in turn:
1) The abductor entered through the open doors, and exited the same way with the child in his arms
2) The abductor entered through the patio doors and exited through the front door with the child in his arms
3) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door, and left the same way with the child in his arms
4) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door and exited through the patio doors with the child in his arms
5 ) The abductor entered through the patio doors and passed the child through the window to an accomplice, then exited via the front door empty handed
6 ) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door, passed the child through the window to an accomplice and exited through the patio doors empty handed
There are no other possibilites
Speaking for myself, I think every one of those possibilites raises questions and doubts
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 13, 2013, 07:31:52 PM
Sorry Angelo, but you are wrong, I didnt say nor infer any such thing. You misread my post and assumed that because I said I didnt seen an abuction happening at the time they insist it must have done, that I accused anyone there at the time of lying.
When it comes to fingerprints on the window - one would expect (as this was important) that the cleaners would have been specifically asked by the PJ if they had cleaned the windows, and if so, when. I have not come across a statement which throws any light on this. Has anyone else? Why would they? What differende would it make?
Kate and Gerry closed the shutters and window the day they arrived and left them like that for the rest of the week - and so Kate's fingerprints could have been there since that time. Sure
Most people open windows by using the handle, so it's not that surprising if no other prints were found on the actual window pane. On the other hand Kate had been in that apartment for 6 days, and so it would not be at all surprising to find her fingerprints anywhere - especially in the children's bedroom IMO. Sure
Were the window handles forensically tested? Of course they were
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Angelo222 on July 13, 2013, 07:37:52 PM
This forum prides itself on exploring and reporting the facts which eventually lead to the truth as has already been seen in cases such as Bamber, Proud, Hall and Craigie to name but some.
We are not interested in fantasy theories or bizarre speculations. The truth never changes, only some peoples perspective of it!
Its silly season again 8@??)( All the potty theories come back to roost. @)(++(*
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 13, 2013, 07:38:21 PM
yes, I posted that obviously, and no, I wasnt calling him a liar. I meant the whole scene of an abduction taking place at exactly the same time as Gerry just doing his check and sitting outside talking to a friend and another friend coming up the road does not ring right, if it was so masterly planned and they were being watched, this would not have happened IMO! the coast would have to be totally clear and no risks being taken to being spotted. I explained it all in my original post, thats all.
ETa thanks Icab below, thats exactly it.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 13, 2013, 07:42:07 PM
I think Redbloosom may be suggesting that an 'abduction' just happened to be taking place at the exact time Gerry just happened to be with an entirely independent witness ... that is what seems almost too 'convient' and therefore questionable
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 13, 2013, 10:36:43 PM
This forum prides itself on exploring and reporting the facts which eventually lead to the truth as has already been seen in cases such as Bamber, Proud, Hall and Craigie to name but some.
We are not interested in fantasy theories or bizarre speculations. The truth never changes, only some peoples perspective of it!
Only no truth has been established in this case to date, I wonder what happened to it, will it end up another lord lucan?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 13, 2013, 10:55:58 PM
Only no truth has been established in this case to date, I wonder what happened to it, will it end up another lord lucan?
Scotland Yard's version of their investigation isn't the truth?
How many times have we been regaled by the "truth" on fora? You yourself, amongst others regularly regurgitate the "facts", dogs don't lie, dna in a hire car, none of it establishes anything that even comes near the "truth".
The truth is, as is correct, the parents of a missing child were investigated, no evidence was found, the Portoguese Attorney General said as much, Scotland Yard reinforced it. That's not good enough for the keyboard detectives though.
The truth is a child is missing, whatever happened, she needs to be found. I think that is the only truth anyone would need.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 14, 2013, 01:06:30 AM
To address the substance of the thread, on the assuption that an abduction occured, we should look at all possibilites of how an abductor might have entered and exited
The shutters and window were wide open, but curtains closed[/[/color]
Rubbish! Why are you blatently making things up Icabod?
1) The abductor entered through the open doors, and exited the same way with the child in his arms
2) The abductor entered through the patio doors and exited through the front door with the child in his arms
3) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door, and left the same way with the child in his arms
4) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door and exited through the patio doors with the child in his arms
5 ) The abductor entered through the patio doors and passed the child through the window to an accomplice, then exited via the front door empty handed
6 ) The abductor had a duplicate key and entered through the front door, passed the child through the window to an accomplice and exited through the patio doors empty handed
There are no other possibilites
You are wrong Icabod, there are 9 possible combinations. But exiting by the patio doors is clearly a non -runner, when Gerry and Jez were talking nearby and Jane witnessed Bundleman on JT corner.
THE FRONT DOOR was used, in and out ... almost without doubt. It was a gift to someone with a key and the whole process would be over in a flash
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 14, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
because of my long posts + a multitude of little ?obfuscating? posts on some other matters, this worthwhile post by Benice got swamped out. so
BUMPED
Reply #47 on: July 13, 2013, 12:38:49 AM »QuoteQuote from: Redblossom on July 12, 2013, 06:45:11 PM
Quote
- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one. - Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further - The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat - Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations
Edited When it comes to fingerprints on the window - one would expect (as this was important) that the cleaners would have been specifically asked by the PJ if they had cleaned the windows, and if so, when. I have not come across a statement which throws any light on this. Has anyone else?
Kate and Gerry closed the shutters and window the day they arrived and left them like that for the rest of the week - and so Kate's fingerprints could have been there since that time.
Most people open windows by using the handle, so it's not that surprising if no other prints were found on the actual window pane. On the other hand Kate had been in that apartment for 6 days, and so it would not be at all surprising to find her fingerprints anywhere - especially in the children's bedroom IMO.
Were the window handles forensically tested?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 14, 2013, 11:05:56 AM
The scene of crimes woman who swabbed the window and shutter obviously ignored the smudged useless prints.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 14, 2013, 11:08:17 AM
Cos there must have been dozens of other prints, dont you think John?
Yes, that is my experience. There will always be prints in varying states of degradation or decay. A trained SOCO knows what to lift and what not to.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2013, 12:38:14 PM
Why did Amaral insist that the window had been cleaned the previous day?
- Why would a cleaner clean a window - which apparently had the shutter permanently down - in the middle of the week - as opposed to the turn-around day?
- The cleaner's statement makes no mention of it.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2013, 01:18:22 PM
Why did Amaral insist that the window had been cleaned the previous day?
- Why would a cleaner clean a window - which apparently had the shutter permanently down - in the middle of the week - as opposed to the turn-around day?
- The cleaner's statement makes no mention of it.
[/b]
Exactly Carana - if Amaral thought it was important enough to claim the windows were cleaned the day before - then why is there no mention of that in the cleaner's statement. You would expect .. 'When did you last clean the windows?' would have been a vital question, as if the answer had been 'On the 2nd May'' then that would be proof that Kate's fingerprints must have been left there after that date.
Without that information from the cleaner - Kate's prints could have been there from the first day they arrived when she and Gerry closed the window and shutters and didn't open them again.
IMO cleaning windows would not be part of the general daily cleaning duties, - that would be something they did on the turn-around days.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2013, 02:52:56 PM
Exactly Carana - if Amaral thought it was important enough to claim the windows were cleaned the day before - then why is there no mention of that in the cleaner's statement. You would expect .. 'When did you last clean the windows?' would have been a vital question, as if the answer had been 'On the 2nd May'' then that would be proof that Kate's fingerprints must have been left there after that date.
Without that information from the cleaner - Kate's prints could have been there from the first day they arrived when she and Gerry closed the window and shutters and didn't open them again.
IMO cleaning windows would not be part of the general daily cleaning duties, - that would be something they did on the turn-around days.
I have no problem with the idea that Kate touched the window frame to poke her head outside to quickly check.
I have found nothing in the files to indicate that her prints were "in an opening" position - there's no position indicated in that report at all. I've no idea what led Amaral to state this as fact.
Why would anyone covering up a crime place their own fingerprints on a pane of glass as opposed to using the handle to open it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2013, 07:26:46 AM
I have no problem with the idea that Kate touched the window frame to poke her head outside to quickly check.
I have found nothing in the files to indicate that her prints were "in an opening" position - there's no position indicated in that report at all. I've no idea what led Amaral to state this as fact.
Why would anyone covering up a crime place their own fingerprints on a pane of glass as opposed to using the handle to open it?
Do you think people always behave logically in a situation such as this ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 09:23:32 AM
How did an abductor enter by the unlocked patio when the shutter was down on it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 15, 2013, 09:47:31 AM
Do you think people always behave logically in a situation such as this ?
If it was all part of a cunning plan by people who regarded their dead daughter as an inconvenience to be disposed of like a bag of old rubbish - then yes.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2013, 10:24:19 AM
If it was all part of a cunning plan by people who regarded their dead daughter as an inconvenience to be disposed of like a bag of old rubbish - then yes.
Is there one singular piece of evidence that can be regarded as proof of abduction ?
Perhaps you should research cases of where people have tried to cover up crimes.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 15, 2013, 11:02:20 AM
From where do you get that? As far as I know, there was no shutter on the sliding glass patio doors.
From Rachel's statement on the 15th May 2007:
Quote
When they arrived at the restaurant at 20h45 the McCann couple were already there.
They were talking to a couple they knew from tennis, whose name she cannot remember. Jane was also there but she was not talking to them. The Payne family and Dianne arrived just after 21h00. Matthew bumped into them as he had gone to the apartment, but he did not enter, he just listened outside to see if there was any noise. He did the same at the Tanner and McCann apartments.
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
There does indeed appear to be shutters on the patio doors. See here:
And here: (http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/16/77/69/72/dm021010.jpg)
I think there's a bit of lost in confusion in that statement.
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter. There's a bit missing from the translation of that sentence as it adds "from the outside".
The patio sliding door did have a shutter, but how would they have opened them from the outside? I've never seen shutters like that with a mechanism for raising them from the outside... For that to be correct, they would have had to force it at every check and then somehow roll it down again. All of which would have made noise likely to wake the kids.
The confusion may be with the curtains being drawn.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2013, 11:37:21 AM
I think there's a bit of lost in confusion in that statement.
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter. There's a bit missing from the translation of that sentence as it adds "from the outside".
The patio sliding door did have a shutter, but how would they have opened them from the outside? I've never seen shutters like that with a mechanism for raising them from the outside... For that to be correct, they would have had to force it at every check and then somehow roll it down again. All of which would have made noise likely to wake the kids.
The confusion may be with the curtains being drawn.
The down side to that is the mccanns and their followers claim the children were sleeping heavily.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2013, 11:56:16 AM
The down side to that is the mccanns and their followers claim the children were sleeping heavily.
The point of going back to make a quick check was to make sure they hadn't woken up. So why would they have chosen the noisiest (and the most complicated, if indeed possible) option when doing so?
It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't recall anyone of the other statements saying that the patio shutters were down.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 11:57:35 AM
I think there's a bit of lost in confusion in that statement.
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter. There's a bit missing from the translation of that sentence as it adds "from the outside".
The patio sliding door did have a shutter, but how would they have opened them from the outside? I've never seen shutters like that with a mechanism for raising them from the outside... For that to be correct, they would have had to force it at every check and then somehow roll it down again. All of which would have made noise likely to wake the kids.
The confusion may be with the curtains being drawn.
But according to Rachael the shutter was closed, irrespective of how it had to be opened. Agree?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 12:03:28 PM
The point of going back to make a quick check was to make sure they hadn't woken up. So why would they have chosen the noisiest (and the most complicated, if indeed possible) option when doing so?
It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't recall anyone of the other statements saying that the patio shutters were down.
Unless of course it was Gerry's first statement which was correct, that he entered via the door using his key, seeing as (according to Rachael) the shutter was down on the patio door, meaning he couldn't enter through the patio from the outside.
Then it makes sense, doesn't it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 12:22:53 PM
I think there's a bit of lost in confusion in that statement.
The confusion may be with the curtains being drawn.
So if it is confusion relating to curtains why would the statment which says "raise the shutter" count as "raise the curtains" when raising the curtains is not possible?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
Have deleted this post. I was in error.
... but it is certainly correct that somehow the quotation appeared differently from the quote I expected. ie. No images, and there should have been
Was unable to preview the post because somthing wrong with the system ... quite likely my computer.
Sorry
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 01:03:39 PM
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 15, 2013, 01:59:21 PM
Thank you for posting the photos Albertini. As a new member please introduce yourself in the new members section at the top of the home page.
Re the patio door shutters, it is certainly the case that they are normally raised and lowered from within the apartment. Again, as with the window shutters, unless they are locked in the down position they can be lifted from the outside. Gaining access via the patio doors when the shutters are in the down position is possible but really requires to people. One to lift the shutter and hold it up while the second person opens the patio door and enters the apartment.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
Thank you for posting the photos Albertini. As a new member please introduce yourself in the new members section at the top of the home page.
Re the patio door shutters, it is certainly the case that they are normally raised and lowered from within the apartment. Again, as with the window shutters, unless they are locked in the down position they can be lifted from the outside. Gaining access via the patio doors when the shutters are in the down position is possible but really requires to people. One to lift the shutter and hold it up while the second person opens the patio door and enters the apartment.
No problem, i have also introduced myself in the members forum!
One would surmise that it would not be sensible if the shutters were down for someone to attempt to gain access that way, for the noise it would undoubtedly make in trying to lift them in full view of the Tapas restaurant.
It's very high risk and makes no sense.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 15, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
No problem, i have also introduced myself in the members forum!
One would surmise that it would not be sensible if the shutters were down for someone to attempt to gain access that way, for the noise it would undoubtedly make in trying to lift them in full view of the Tapas restaurant.
It's very high risk and makes no sense.
I absolutely agree, when the patio door shutters are deployed ie in the down position, access is extremely difficult for someone on their own for the reasons already explained. If the shutters are down and no one available inside to raise them it is to be expected that the front door be used.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 02:24:03 PM
I absolutely agree, when the patio door shutters are deployed ie in the down position, access is extremely difficult for someone on their own for the reasons already explained. If the shutters are down and no one available inside to raise them it is to be expected that the front door be used.
Ok, i agree that the patio is now off limits as a point of entry. However then does then cause concern as to why Gerry should change his original statement on 4th May from entering through the door to then entering through the patio and not mentioning the shutters.
In relation to the front door then, was there any report either at the time or since that any of the keys were lost, stolen, borrowed or went missing?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 15, 2013, 02:33:25 PM
I absolutely agree, when the patio door shutters are deployed ie in the down position, access is extremely difficult for someone on their own for the reasons already explained. If the shutters are down and no one available inside to raise them it is to be expected that the front door be used.
There are 2 shutters on that patio door, not one, as it looks in the photo. One could have been left up, the other one left closed.
Mathew Oldfield used the patio door, on his check.
"To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be".
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 15, 2013, 02:33:42 PM
Having had a chance to read back through posts I find the comments in Rachel's statement relating to Matthew quite interesting.
Could it indeed be the case that Matthew didn't enter apartment 5a on the first occasion on the evening of Tuesday 3rd May because the patio shutter was down?
Similarly, was he able to enter the apartment on the second visit as the shutter was up?
If this is correct then someone lifted the shutter between his two visits. The only person we know of who visited the apartment in the intervening period was Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 15, 2013, 02:40:17 PM
There are 2 shutters on that patio door, not one, as it looks in the photo. One could have been left up, the other one left closed.
Mathew Oldfield used the patio door, on his check.
"To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be".
The patio door (singular) has its own shutter, the second shutter covers the static pane of glass.
Matthew used the patio door on his second visit to apt 5a.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 15, 2013, 02:47:30 PM
Having had a chance to read back through posts I find the comments in Rachel's statement relating to Matthew quite interesting.
Could it indeed be the case that Matthew didn't enter apartment 5a on the first occasion on the evening of Tuesday 3rd May because the patio shutter was down?
Similarly, was he able to enter the apartment on the second visit as the shutter was up?
If this is correct then someone lifted the shutter between his two visits. The only person we know of who visited the apartment in the intervening period was Gerry McCann.
Benefiting from meeting them next to the residences, he adds that, on his own initiative, he made a 'listening check' at the bedroom window of MBM and the twins at 21h05. That he limited himself to approach the bedroom window on the outside of the apartment to check if the children were crying or awake. He adds to have not heard any noise nor perceived anything out of the ordinary. He went on to do the same check at the bedroom windows of his daughter and ROB's daughters
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2013, 04:13:30 PM
In what way are the patio doors different in the two seperate pictures?
I beg your pardon Albertini. My mistake.
Apologies for taking so long to come back. Had to wait for hubby to repair my computer. Nothing was working properly; thought it was broadband but seems that wasn't the problem this time
He has defragged and things are improved.
Welcome to the forum Albertini. Look forward to your take on things
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2013, 04:20:55 PM
Having had a chance to read back through posts I find the comments in Rachel's statement relating to Matthew quite interesting.
Could it indeed be the case that Matthew didn't enter apartment 5a on the first occasion on the evening of Tuesday 3rd May because the patio shutter was down?
Similarly, was he able to enter the apartment on the second visit as the shutter was up?
If this is correct then someone lifted the shutter between his two visits. The only person we know of who visited the apartment in the intervening period was Gerry McCann.
I am finding this discussion about the shutters very interesting. Cos if the shutters were closed, they had to be lifted *somehow?) each time there was a check, so the sound to anyone like Mrs Fenn must have been VERY familiar.
Also if the shutters were down, then when they were raised, the light that had been left on in the sitting room would instantly become noticeable to the Tapas 9.
I do not believe that any intruder would even think for one moment of raising shutters, with any noise caused by that, and in the knowledge that he would be fully silhouetted against that sitting room light.
With those problems, any one thinking of entering that way, would instantly ditch the idea. No wonder Amaral when he made a statement, attempting to justify his "died in apartment" theory, commented that no abductor would have gone in via the steps and patio door; at 50 metres too close to the Tapas group.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 06:31:20 PM
There are 2 shutters on that patio door, not one, as it looks in the photo. One could have been left up, the other one left closed.
Mathew Oldfield used the patio door, on his check.
"To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be".
Possibly viable had Rachael's statement not specifically said:
Quote
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 15, 2013, 07:37:30 PM
Some curiously don't seem or want to understand that, without solid evidence, SY, whether it is the best police on the planet or was, has no power to bypass the AG's report and turn the McCann doxa into a fact.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 15, 2013, 07:41:28 PM
I am finding this discussion about the shutters very interesting. Cos if the shutters were closed, they had to be lifted *somehow?) each time there was a check, so the sound to anyone like Mrs Fenn must have been VERY familiar.
Also if the shutters were down, then when they were raised, the light that had been left on in the sitting room would instantly become noticeable to the Tapas 9.
I do not believe that any intruder would even think for one moment of raising shutters, with any noise caused by that, and in the knowledge that he would be fully silhouttted against that sitting room light.
With those problems, any one thinking of entering that way, would instantly ditch the idea. No woder Amaral when he made a statement, attempting to justify his "died in apartment" theory, commented that no abductor would have gone in via the steps and patio door; at 50 metres too close to the Tapas group.
So given this, do we believe that entry via the patio doors on that night is out of the question?
I'm now trying to get a handle on the front door which Gerry said he walked in through using his key in his first statement.
I believe there were 4 sets of key in existence (this is an area of the case i have not seen much about). Do we know who had them and whether at any point any of the owner's reported them lost, stolen or missing?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2013, 09:23:56 PM
So given this, do we believe that entry via the patio doors on that night is out of the question?
I'm now trying to get a handle on the front door which Gerry said he walked in through using his key in his first statement.
I believe there were 4 sets of key in existence (this is an area of the case i have not seen much about). Do we know who had them and whether at any point any of the owner's reported them lost, stolen or missing?
If the patio door shutters were down, then it seems highly unlikely that there was entry via the patio doors becos of noise and the fact that whoever enterd would be silhouetted against the living room lighting. Also the tapas 9 would sure notice the shutters going up as the living room light quickly filled the gap
What troubles me about this is that only a few hours ago, we were talking about the Mccanns closing the curtains behind them as they exited the apartment. So has one of them got it wrong?
Why would they have needed to close the curtains if there were closed shutters? No reason.
Someone has it wrong. Either that or the situation changed during the evening. From shutters closed to no shutters and curtains closed.
I still maintain that the only sensible way in for an abductor is via the front door using a key. There is recent history of that in adjoining apartments. It is also in a dark corner and completely out of sight to anyone entering the parking area then walking across to the centre of Block 5 ready to take the walled walkways to various apartments.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 15, 2013, 10:23:42 PM
Some curiously don't seem or want to understand that, without solid evidence, SY, whether it is the best police on the planet or was, has no power to bypass the AG's report and turn the McCann doxa into a fact.
Of course they can - the AG's report is not Holy Writ! SY have the advantage of far better resources than were (are) available in Portugal, and fresher minds. It seems that abduction without any parental complicity is the crime they have settled on.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 15, 2013, 10:37:24 PM
Of course they can - the AG's report is not Holy Writ! SY have the advantage of far better resources than were (are) available in Portugal, and fresher minds. It seems that abduction without any parental complicity is the crime they have settled on.
Yes it seems it is, Chinagirl. I was just reminding SY'll have to bring solid evidence, because the AG's report is not "holy writ", but authority in this case. Of course any strong evidence will be aknowlegded by the AG, no doubt about that.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 16, 2013, 03:36:59 AM
Possibly viable had Rachael's statement not specifically said:
Quote
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
The patio door shutter is not designed to be opened from the outside which renders her comment somewhat suspect.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 16, 2013, 03:47:22 AM
I must say in all honesty that I fail to see how anyone could possibly forget what method of entry they used to gain access to their apartment when the choice was a simple one.
1. Front door requiring a long walk around the block and a key to effect entry or...
2. Patio door which was much closer and was unlocked.
Remembering too that he was asked a matter of hours after the event when this information would have been fresh in his memory.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 09:00:19 AM
The patio door shutter is not designed to be opened from the outside which renders her comment somewhat suspect.
But it ties in with Gerry's first statement on the 4th May when he said he entered by the front door using his key.
If the shutter was indeed down then he would have had to enter by the front door. Now it may have been at this point that Gerry opened the patio shutter but he does not mention that, and then of course his next statement changes to entering by the patio door.
I would have thought had Gerry's first statement said he entered by the patio door then it would have raised doubt about Rachael Oldfield's statement but her comment on this issue (on which is she is very specific on this point) coupled with that inexplicable change of entry point in Gerry's statements raises a red flag worthy of investigation.
Added to that the open window and shutter, which makes no sense for an abductor to use or open, a hypothesis could be formed which suggests entry points are being created.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2013, 09:03:45 AM
Have you taken account of the absolute confusion and over-riding terror that would be in his mind, John? Albertini? [sorry John]
Six weeks after my son died, I was mentally not ready for work. Still kinda shell shocked. But it was a new job that had generously been kept open for me for half a term, as I waited for my son to die and until I 'got over' my sons death. And my first real job after qualifying as a teacher. At a school that i liked. I had to start at that new half term or lose the job.
I was mainly teaching Art and a lot of equipment and teaching aids needing carrying. It was a regular occurance that I would go up two flights of stairs to have a completely blank brain by the time I reached the stores. Also I was not as safe on the road as normal, so I kept away from driving .
Every aspect of my life was affected. It was dreadful.
I have also been in the situation where a gross injustice has been done to me. That created brain overdrive. Mind compulsively racing, unable to sleep, thoughts jerking all over the place. That affected most aspects of my life too.
Gerry and Kate had both aspects of this. The loss of a child + the injustice of a stranger stealing her + the worry of what had happened to her./ Was she being abused?
I cant imagine what that did to their brains and emotions.
I truly think that Gerry should not be judged too harshly for any mistakes he made, especially in his early statements. His mind was in a jumble. At a guess, blank in places and racing in other places
Psychologically in a jumble. Only my thoughts but based upon personal experiences.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 10:02:52 AM
I must say in all honesty that I fail to see how anyone could possibly forget what method of entry they used to gain access to their apartment when the choice was a simple one.
1. Front door requiring a long walk around the block and a key to effect entry or...
2. Patio door which was much closer and was unlocked.
Remembering too that he was asked a matter of hours after the event when this information would have been fresh in his memory.
Someone got muddled: either Gerry, the "interpreter" or the police officer.
Don't forget that Gerry would not have been able to read the statement for himself. It isn't even clear whether the interpreter translated it for him or not.
Although Gerry could have got muddled in the general panic / lack of sleep, etc., or lied as some people seem to think, I doubt it as he then mentions Matt's check via the unlocked patio door in the same statement. If he had said that, the officer should have asked him why he went the long way around when the patio door was unlocked.
In any case, it got corrected in his second statement.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2013, 10:53:36 AM
Someone got muddled: either Gerry, the "interpreter" or the police officer.
Don't forget that Gerry would not have been able to read the statement for himself. It isn't even clear whether the interpreter translated it for him or not.
Although Gerry could have got muddled in the general panic / lack of sleep, etc., or lied as some people seem to think, I doubt it as he then mentions Matt's check via the unlocked patio door in the same statement. If he had said that, the officer should have asked him why he went the long way around when the patio door was unlocked.
In any case, it got corrected in his second statement.
I agree Carana. One of the biggest obstacles for the McCanns during this whole case was the language barrier. At that very first interview IMO there was universal confusion and misunderstandings about doors and keys.
It was mentioned by the Police officer conducting JTs rogatory statement that some people had referred to the door facing the car park as the back door - and the patio door as the front door and that had caused confusion previously - as other people did it the opposite way round.
She suggested they called one door the 'roadside door' and the other the 'poolside door' to avoid a repetition of that confusion.
IIRC There was a discussion here recently about 4/5 ex British policemen going over to PDL to 'investigate' the case? I distinctly remember that they referred to the patio door as the front door etc. Personally I have never thought of the door facing the car park as anything other than the front door.
IMO when Gerry received a written English translation of his first statement, he then corrected the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 11:05:58 AM
Someone got muddled: either Gerry, the "interpreter" or the police officer.
Don't forget that Gerry would not have been able to read the statement for himself. It isn't even clear whether the interpreter translated it for him or not.
Although Gerry could have got muddled in the general panic / lack of sleep, etc., or lied as some people seem to think, I doubt it as he then mentions Matt's check via the unlocked patio door in the same statement. If he had said that, the officer should have asked him why he went the long way around when the patio door was unlocked.
In any case, it got corrected in his second statement.
Which is why a reconstruction would have been vital, to highlight these "muddles" and then hopefully explain and remove them.
This would, i am sure, have reduced / removed the PJ's suspicion of the parent's involvement.
From the theory put forward by the PJ they suspected the group did not want to take part in a reconstruction because the group did not want to highlight or explain these "muddles", the PJ wondered why they would not want to do that which undoubtedly added to the suspicion against the McCann's in the PJ's minds.
Which is why i am still gobsmacked that the group did not want to do it given it would have removed a huge tranche of suspicion against the Mccann's in the PJ's minds.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 11:07:38 AM
I agree Carana. One of the biggest obstacles for the McCanns during this whole case was the language barrier. At that very first interview IMO there was universal confusion and misunderstandings about doors and keys.
It was mentioned by the Police officer conducting JTs rogatory statement that some people had referred to the door facing the car park as the back door - and the patio door as the front door and that had caused confusion previously - as other people did it the opposite way round.
She suggested they called one door the 'roadside door' and the other the 'poolside door' to avoid a repetition of that confusion.
IIRC There was a discussion here recently about 4/5 ex British policemen going over to PDL to 'investigate' the case? I distinctly remember that they referred to the patio door as the front door etc. Personally I have never thought of the door facing the car park as anything other than the front door.
IMO when Gerry received a written English translation of his first statement, he then corrected the misunderstanding.
Some people tend to forget the initial general chaos and assume that everything in those early statements was accurate.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 11:10:10 AM
Which is why a reconstruction would have been vital, to highlight these "muddles" and then hopefully explain and remove them.
This would, i am sure, have reduced / removed the PJ's suspicion of the parent's involvement.
From the theory put forward by the PJ they suspected the group did not want to take part in a reconstruction because the group did not want to highlight or explain these "muddles", the PJ wondered why they would not want to do that which undoubtedly added to the suspicion against the McCann's in the PJ's minds.
Which is why i am still gobsmacked that the group did not want to do it given it would have removed a huge tranche of suspicion against the Mccann's in the PJ's minds.
I agree that a reconstruction may have been useful when memories were fresh and as many people as possible were still there, i.e., in early May 2007.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 16, 2013, 11:11:38 AM
The main door was locked in Mr McCann's first statement, and he used the key to enter the flat, as (he said) did Mrs McCann. This statement fits perfectly with Mr McCann's calls to family and friends "all doors locked". No possible lost in translation.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 11:15:23 AM
I agree that a reconstruction may have been useful when memories were fresh and as many people as possible were still there, i.e., in early May 2007.
I agree, and it is to the detriment of solving the case that it did not happen, and one has to then ask why it was prevented from taking place.
That being said, can you accept that the PJ, or indeed any police force in the world, would treat a refusal to take part in a reconstruction of the evening's events, involving the last people to see Madeleine alive and well, as suspicious?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2013, 11:18:39 AM
Some people tend to forget the initial general chaos and assume that everything in those early statements was accurate.
Exactly. I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared. He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.
How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 11:28:09 AM
Exactly. I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared. He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.
How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.
I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.
That being said though the crucial thing from an investigative point of view is the belief threshold you are prepared to accept between anguish and suspicion as to such a change in the point of entry into the apartment in that last visit, particularly if there are other statements and/or actions which also arouse suspicion.
And that's the heart of the case at the moment between those who believe in the abduction theory and those who do not.
And i can't see that ever changing or being resolved until fresh evidence comes to light.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 11:33:25 AM
Exactly. I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared. He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.
How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.
Aside from those directly involved, the "interpreter" was brought in at short notice (how experienced was she?) and the police officer didn't seem to be very awake (or was stressed as well ) if he hadn't questioned why Gerry would have gone the long way around when he mentioned in the same statement that Matt had done a check via the unlocked patio doors.
Any one of the three could have made mistakes.
It wasn't about reporting a stolen passport - there was a little girl who had disappeared.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 16, 2013, 12:53:57 PM
Is it not possible that Gerry did indeed enter the apartment via the front door, using his key, during his first check, and opened the patio door shutter then so that it would be easier to make further checks via the unlocked patio door?
If that is what occured then there is no conflict between his two statements.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 01:06:34 PM
Is it not possible that Gerry did indeed enter the apartment via the front door, using his key, during his first check, and opened the patio door shutter then so that it would be easier to make further checks via the unlocked patio door?
If that is what occured then there is no conflict between his two statements.
That would seem feasible... but why didn't the police officer ask?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 16, 2013, 01:35:23 PM
Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 16, 2013, 02:49:50 PM
Possibly viable had Rachael's statement not specifically said:
Quote
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Rachel made 3 statements, why is this only mentioned in one?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 02:58:52 PM
Rachel made 3 statements, why is this only mentioned in one?
I have no idea, i wasn't there and didn't make this statement, you would have to ask her, wouldn't you?
The point is she speficially said it, she walked past the McCann's apartment after the McCann's had left and were at the Tapas and that is what she said she saw in her statement.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.
That being said though the crucial thing from an investigative point of view is the belief threshold you are prepared to accept between anguish and suspicion as to such a change in the point of entry into the apartment in that last visit, particularly if there are other statements and/or actions which also arouse suspicion.
And that's the heart of the case at the moment between those who believe in the abduction theory and those who do not.
And i can't see that ever changing or being resolved until fresh evidence comes to light.
I disagree, particularly concerning the early statements, because I don't feel that people are taking into account the context.
These initial statements were to get the ball rolling. The police were under pressure as well, don't forget. I doubt that any of them (witness, interpreter or police officer) could have imagined that the hoi poloi would be poring over every imaginable possible "discrepancy" six years later.
None of these statements are verbatim. There is no way of checking what they actually said, as opposed to what appeared in those statements.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2013, 03:42:51 PM
I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.
Nothing would be equal to the level of trauma suffered in the first hours after Madeleine's disappearance.
The McCanns did not contact the media or the UK government. Other people did that. It was Mark Warner, not the McCanns who brought in the various people who arrived in PdL to assist in those first days - including the trauma psychologist who was such a great help to them It was British MPs who phoned the McCanns not the other way round . It was not until almost a week later that Gerry was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps and determined to make it his mission to do everything in his power to get his daughter back and that is what he has focused on ever since. IMO
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 16, 2013, 06:43:21 PM
I came across the following comment which Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, made in a BBC interview on 4th May 2007 being the day after the abduction.
"Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."
Note the "...the front door was lying open." comment?
www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 06:54:53 PM
I came across the following comment which Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, made in a BBC interview on 4th May 2007 being the day after the abduction.
"Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."
Note the "...the front door was lying open." comment?
www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
Muddled understanding of a family in panic?
Could it have been a confusion over which door? Wasn't it the bedroom door that was more open than usual?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 16, 2013, 07:10:38 PM
How clear was the telephone line ? Wasn't it noisy since she was calling from far away ? And was Trish Cameron really awake ? Could she in such circumstances understand what her mentally exhausted and unfortunate brother told her ? She was stressed and traumatised as well and likely understood "open" instead of "locked". Perfectly expected in that context. How can we be sure she got a BBC journalist on the phone, so early in the morning ? And how experienced was this person in abduction matter ? So many opportunities of mistakes.Think Trish Cameron was capable of casually and coherently inform the BBC is beyond common sense.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2013, 07:26:21 PM
How clear was the telephone line ? Wasn't it noisy since she was calling from far away ? And was Trish Cameron really awake ? Could she in such circumstances understand what her mentally exhausted and unfortunate brother told her ? She was stressed and traumatised as well and likely understood "open" instead of "locked". Perfectly expected in that context. How can we be sure she got a BBC journalist on the phone, so early in the morning ? And how experienced was this person in abduction matter ? So many opportunities of mistakes.Think Trish Cameron was capable of casually and coherently inform the BBC is beyond common sense.
It would be a combination of Gerrys racing brain which would also quite possibly go blank at times too
.... and the passing a message along a line syndrome, where the original message comes out jumbled ay the far end and altogeter different.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2013, 07:37:43 PM
I agree, and it is to the detriment of solving the case that it did not happen, and one has to then ask why it was prevented from taking place.
That being said, can you accept that the PJ, or indeed any police force in the world, would treat a refusal to take part in a reconstruction of the evening's events, involving the last people to see Madeleine alive and well, as suspicious?
Albertini, my understanding is that The Mccanns wanted a reconstruction in the early stages, but Amaral did not. Presumably that was becos he decided from day 1 that the Mccanns dunit.
It was only after it became clear that Amaral was setting them up in September, that there was a change of mind amongst the Tapas group.
Do you remember how at that Arguido meeting in ?Portimao, Amaral lied to Gerry and told him that "the game was up" cos they had evidence that Madeleines dead body had been in the car? A car only hired 3 weeks afterwards.
Gerry knowing that to be untrue would immediately realise that they were being "fitted up". Any future reconstructions would be heavily biased with the sole intent of incriminating them, or even providing false evidence.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 16, 2013, 08:31:25 PM
I meant to post this earlier but got sidetracked.
Here in Gerry's statement of 10th May is the answer as to why he changed his statement re the doors.
"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."
www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
Here in Gerry's statement of 10th May is the answer as to why he changed his statement re the doors.
"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door."
www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
There are no answers here as to why he changed his previous statement. This is simply a change of statement without explanation as to why it has changed.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 09:31:07 PM
Is it not possible that Gerry did indeed enter the apartment via the front door, using his key, during his first check, and opened the patio door shutter then so that it would be easier to make further checks via the unlocked patio door?
If that is what occured then there is no conflict between his two statements.
I agree but only had Gerry mentioned this himself in any one of the three statements he provided during the investigation. The fact he hasn't mentioned it surely and by your logic indicates then that there are indeed conflicts.
You can't fill in the gaps yourself as an explanation as to the discrepancies in the statements of others and then say that is what he meant (but did not say himself then or since) as justification of those differences.
To do so corrupts the whole ethos and value of the witness statement process.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 16, 2013, 09:41:16 PM
That would seem feasible... but why didn't the police officer ask?
Firstly because it is not the job of a police officer to put words in a witnesses mouth whilst they are giving their statement and secondly because Rachel's statement was given on the 15th May some days after Gerry gave his statements on the 4th and 10th May! The policeman interviewing Gerry would not have known what Rachel was going to say 11 and 5 days later!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 16, 2013, 10:07:31 PM
I agree but only had Gerry mentioned this himself in any one of the three statements he provided during the investigation.
Actually they were more than 3. One in August was informal and we'll never know what Mr McCann said, only that this interview left him in a terrible state. Apart from that, we know a conversation between Inspector Martins and Gerald McCann on the crime scene made possible to establish the following.. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 10:51:00 PM
There are no answers here as to why he changed his previous statement. This is simply a change of statement without explanation as to why it has changed.
Wouldn't it have been helpful if the police officer had asked and noted the reason for the clarification?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 16, 2013, 11:04:02 PM
Firstly because it is not the job of a police officer to put words in a witnesses mouth whilst they are giving their statement and secondly because Rachel's statement was given on the 15th May some days after Gerry gave his statements on the 4th and 10th May! The policeman interviewing Gerry would not have known what Rachel was going to say 11 and 5 days later!
Rachel gave statements on the 4th May, 11th May and the 15th May. Rogatory statement 09.04.08
4th May, she states
Between the starters and the main course, at around 9.30pm, her husband Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien both went to check on the children. Kate was also planning to go and see the children, but they told her it was no trouble, that they would go and check. Kate, therefore, stayed at the restaurant. Four or five minutes later the interviewee's husband came back after having checked his apartment. He also checked the one where Madeleine was. He entered the apartment by the sliding door/window at the rear (the couple Gerry and Kate McCann left that access unlocked during dinner). The said patio door gives access to the apartment's lounge where two doors open into the respective bedrooms.
11th May, she states
When they were both standing, KATE said the same, namely, that she would also go to see her children. At that point, presumably, she cannot be sure, if her husband MATHEW or RUSSEL volunteered to go to see KATE's children, and she them that they would have to enter by the back door, which was unlocked.
15th May, she states
After checking his children Matthew went to see the McCann children. In order to do so he entered via the patio doors.
Rogatory statement 09.04.08
I said I'd go and check on Grace and Matt said he'd go and then Russell said that he'd go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we're going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way
There's something not right about this statement,
The window shutters of the McCann's apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Its in the same statement, just above where she states
After checking his children Matthew went to see the McCann children. In order to do so he entered via the patio doors.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2013, 11:07:39 PM
Firstly because it is not the job of a police officer to put words in a witnesses mouth whilst they are giving their statement and secondly because Rachel's statement was given on the 15th May some days after Gerry gave his statements on the 4th and 10th May! The policeman interviewing Gerry would not have known what Rachel was going to say 11 and 5 days later!
The police officer was asking questions to which the witnesses answered.
Do you seriously find it normal that a police officer interviewing the people closest to the child (and therefore needed to be thoroughly grilled) didn't even wonder why he'd supposedly taken the long way around whilst stating that Matt had entered through the unlocked patio door?
This wasn't about taking a statement for a stolen smartphone.
If Gerry had said he was confused in his first statement due to whatever reason, that might well have been included in the statement as a reason. I'm far less sure that the reason would have been included if the interpreter or the police officer had misunderstood.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 16, 2013, 11:46:29 PM
The interpreter interpreted erroneously and the interviewed, Mr McCann, signed that inaccuracy because he was out of his mind. Shame on the interpreter. In order to conceal the interpreter's mistake, the police officer dropped the question of the main door turning into the patio window ! Shame on the police officer. But the same interpreter interpreted correctly Mrs McCann (patio window), though she had heard (likely an hallucination) Mr McCann pretend his wife got in through the main door. And surely Mrs McCann was as much out of her mind as Mr McCann.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 17, 2013, 09:06:27 AM
Albertini, my understanding is that The Mccanns wanted a reconstruction in the early stages, but Amaral did not. Presumably that was becos he decided from day 1 that the Mccanns dunit.
It was only after it became clear that Amaral was setting them up in September, that there was a change of mind amongst the Tapas group.
Do you remember how at that Arguido meeting in ?Portimao, Amaral lied to Gerry and told him that "the game was up" cos they had evidence that Madeleines dead body had been in the car? A car only hired 3 weeks afterwards.
Gerry knowing that to be untrue would immediately realise that they were being "fitted up". Any future reconstructions would be heavily biased with the sole intent of incriminating them, or even providing false evidence.
Hi Sadie. If you look at the files you will see that no official request for a reconstruction was put forward until late March 2008.
You can view the details here at McCann files:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
In 2007 (when there was no official request) Clarence Mitchell said they would return. However after the official requests were made after 17 March 2008 (and after Amaral had been removed from the case) the tone of Mr Mitchell's statements changed.
For example as emails were being exchanged between the PJ, Stuart Prior and the Tapas group Mr Mitchell said:
Clarence Mitchell, April 6:
Quote
"If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.Their lawyers would block it anyway. But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently."
So Mr Mitchell is stating on record that the McCann's lawyers would block them from coming back to perform the official PJ requested reconstruction!
There are more quotes from Mr Mitchell around this time that can be added and analysed but i haven't got time right now to list them all. Will be happy to later if you like.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 17, 2013, 09:20:40 AM
I came across the following comment which Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, made in a BBC interview on 4th May 2007 being the day after the abduction.
"Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."
Note the "...the front door was lying open." comment?
www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
And add to that the similar comments made by other fmaily members / friends at that time:
Quote
Brian Healy - Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
Quote
Jon Corner - a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Quote
Jill Renwick - a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine," she said.”
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 17, 2013, 10:33:50 AM
The interpreter interpreted erroneously and the interviewed, Mr McCann, signed that inaccuracy because he was out of his mind. Shame on the interpreter. In order to conceal the interpreter's mistake, the police officer dropped the question of the main door turning into the patio window ! Shame on the police officer. But the same interpreter interpreted correctly Mrs McCann (patio window), though she had heard (likely an hallucination) Mr McCann pretend his wife got in through the main door. And surely Mrs McCann was as much out of her mind as Mr McCann.
Gerry's was the first interview (IIRC). Neither the interpreter not the police officer would have been familiar with the layout. Although there is no detail in the initial statements, I would have thought that the police officer would have tried to get a basic understanding of the layout of the apartment. It would be an easy mistake for either the interpreter or the officer to scribble a note to the effect that a key was needed to open one door from the outside and then get mixed up between which was the "back" door and the "front" one. Different words may have been used (e.g., patio instead of "back") concerning Matt's check.
By the time Kate was interviewed, he may have already realised that the door issue didn't make sense, but Gerry's statement had already been typed up and signed.
Initial confusion seems far more likely to me than Gerry lying for no fathomable reason.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 17, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
Gerry's was the first interview (IIRC). Neither the interpreter not the police officer would have been familiar with the layout. Although there is no detail in the initial statements, I would have thought that the police officer would have tried to get a basic understanding of the layout of the apartment. It would be an easy mistake for either the interpreter or the officer to scribble a note to the effect that a key was needed to open one door from the outside and then get mixed up between which was the "back" door and the "front" one. Different words may have been used (e.g., patio instead of "back") concerning Matt's check.
By the time Kate was interviewed, he may have already realised that the door issue didn't make sense, but Gerry's statement had already been typed up and signed.
Initial confusion seems far more likely to me than Gerry lying for no fathomable reason.
Which is fine had he not said:
Quote
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
If it was translation error then you would presume that he would have stated so.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2013, 11:06:55 AM
Gerry's was the first interview (IIRC). Neither the interpreter not the police officer would have been familiar with the layout. Although there is no detail in the initial statements, I would have thought that the police officer would have tried to get a basic understanding of the layout of the apartment. It would be an easy mistake for either the interpreter or the officer to scribble a note to the effect that a key was needed to open one door from the outside and then get mixed up between which was the "back" door and the "front" one. Different words may have been used (e.g., patio instead of "back") concerning Matt's check.
By the time Kate was interviewed, he may have already realised that the door issue didn't make sense, but Gerry's statement had already been typed up and signed.
Initial confusion seems far more likely to me than Gerry lying for no fathomable reason.
Totally agree Carana.
IMO It could also be that when writing up the 'summary' the officer included the word 'key' himself whenever he was referring to what he had understood was the front door - to differentiate between that and the patio door - for which there was no key.
Without a verbatim statement it's impossible to know how the misunderstandings occurred, but it's not difficult to see how easily they could occur at that first interview.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 17, 2013, 11:38:07 AM
If it was translation error then you would presume that he would have stated so.
Perhaps he did say so, but it wasn't considered relevant in terms of clarifying the facts...
There's no way of knowing who got muddled and how that may have occurred without a verbatim report of the 3-way process (witness, interpreter and officer). The statements are only a summary of what was understood.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 17, 2013, 11:42:16 AM
Perhaps he did say so, but it wasn't considered relevant in terms of clarifying the facts...
There's no way of knowing who got muddled and how that may have occurred without a verbatim report of the 3-way process (witness, interpreter and officer). The statements are only a summary of what was understood.
So at the point of being read back the statement, or at the point of having seen the translations, why did the Mccann's not seek formally to correct them?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2013, 12:06:47 PM
So at the point of being read back the statement, or at the point of having seen the translations, why did the Mccann's not seek formally to correct them?
Gerry corrected his - I presume after he read his statement in English. At that stage they would know nothing about the 'correct procedures' regarding witness statements - why would they?
There's a big difference between reading the written word at your own pace where errors would jump out of the page at you and you can re-read stuff if necessary - and sitting exhausted and half out of your mind with worry over your missing daughter - whilst listening to an interpretator reading to you at their pace and probably with a Portugese accent - something which they may have got more used to as time went on - but not at that first interview.
I do find this reluctance from sceptics to allow the McCanns to have any of the normal human reactions to severe shock and trauma that anyone else would have in those circumstances - but instead expect them to behave as if they were reporting the loss of nothing more important than their camera - to be quite incomprehensible.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 17, 2013, 12:36:27 PM
So at the point of being read back the statement, or at the point of having seen the translations, why did the Mccann's not seek formally to correct them?
If Gerry had said "This is not what I said", what would you have expected the police officer to note, bearing in mind that what was important was to clarify facts, not to attribute blame?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 17, 2013, 02:00:52 PM
If Gerry had said "This is not what I said", what would you have expected the police officer to note, bearing in mind that what was important was to clarify facts, not to attribute blame?
I would have expected Gerry to state:
"having read back the translation my words were interperated incorrectly, what i actually said was...."
But Gerry never did that, then or since.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 17, 2013, 03:25:57 PM
"having read back the translation my words were interperated incorrectly, what i actually said was...."
But Gerry never did that, then or since.
LOL how could you possibly know that?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Lace on July 17, 2013, 04:04:04 PM
I don't know about the abductor coming in through the patio doors. It's a bit risky as the McCann's were checking that way and it only took minutes for them to get to the steps, so the abductor even knowing that someone had just done a check and left the apartment, didn't know if someone might double back for some reason or other. Unless the person was working for the OC and would not be obvious to someone who saw him/her.
I think the front door was in darkness, I remember reading a statement by a person who had stayed in 5a and said that the front door area was dark and that they actually disturbed a man lurking outside there.
If the abductor had a key then he came in through the front door.
The window was opened for either an emergency escape, to pass Madeleine through, to ventilate the room in order to remove a smell from something used to sedate Madeleine or a red herring by the abductor so that there would be no suspicion of a key being used.
To say that Kate McCann opened the window to fake an abduction, seems ridiculous to me as one, if she was devious to do that then she would be devious enough to wipe her fingerprints off, and two, she said in her first statement that the patio doors were open.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 18, 2013, 03:13:36 PM
To say that Kate McCann opened the window to fake an abduction, seems ridiculous to me as one, if she was devious to do that then she would be devious enough to wipe her fingerprints off, and two, she said in her first statement that the patio doors were open.
And it is ridiculous. Mrs McCann didn't need to open the shutters and the window to pretend they were open, since nobody saw them open (except for Mr McCann who confirmed they were open). This is likely why the PJ didn't attach much importance to Mrs McCann's fingerprints being on the window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Lace on July 18, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
And it is ridiculous. Mrs McCann didn't need to open the shutters and the window to pretend they were open, since nobody saw them open (except for Mr McCann who confirmed they were open). This is likely why the PJ didn't attach much importance to Mrs McCann's fingerprints being on the window.
Well that is even more proof that Kate McCann didn't stage an abduction by saying the window was open then, isn't Anne?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 18, 2013, 04:19:37 PM
And it is ridiculous. Mrs McCann didn't need to open the shutters and the window to pretend they were open, since nobody saw them open (except for Mr McCann who confirmed they were open). This is likely why the PJ didn't attach much importance to Mrs McCann's fingerprints being on the window.
Who do you mean by the "PJ"?
The fingerprints are mentioned in several interviews with Amaral. Where he and his interview pals got the idea that her prints were found in an "opening position" remains a mystery to me.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 18, 2013, 06:09:23 PM
You can't but given the seriousness of the situation and the fact you were in a foreign country you'd be making damn sure the information you gave was accurate and clear.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 19, 2013, 09:45:25 AM
Let's look at the issue of the open window and shutter.
If the shutters were up at Matthew's check on the twins and if Jane Tanner saw an abductor at 9:15 (we can presume the shutter was up then) then here's my question.
Why did Jane Tanner and then Russell O'Brien not notice the open shutter and window on their walk to their apartment and on the way back after the abductor had left the apartment?
Isn't that four visits past the car park and at none of those walks past an open window and shutter weren't noticed. How could that be?
Of course, but at night time the contrast would be fully visible against the white washed walls bearing in mind Gerry states that they found the shutters almost fully up.
Four visits past there and no one saw them up? On an apartment they knew their friends children were in and were all "checking"?
That's the stretching the bounds of credibility.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 19, 2013, 11:15:35 AM
Dubious red herring, if, by chance and in spite of the fact that "every one checked only on their kids", one of them had spotted such a revealing detail before the Smith family crossed a child carrier.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 19, 2013, 11:23:55 AM
Actually just revisiting the relevent sections of the statements there were more than four visits past the apartment window.
Jane Tanner went to relieve Russell around 9:35-9:40. Matthew did his check at 9:30 both of his apartment and the McCann's.
And of course Jez Wilkins did not see it either on his way back to his apartment.
So we are up to EIGHT visits by the group and one by Jez past the shutter and window and no one reported seeing the shutter open.
What are the chances of that happening, particularly when they were all "on watch" of each others apartment?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 19, 2013, 11:36:08 AM
We don't know whether JW went back around the corner or took the path between the resort and the patios. On the way out of the car park, it's unlikely someone would spot this window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 19, 2013, 12:13:54 PM
Actually just revisiting the relevent sections of the statements there were more than four visits past the apartment window.
Jane Tanner went to relieve Russell around 9:35-9:40. Matthew did his check at 9:30 both of his apartment and the McCann's.
And of course Jez Wilkins did not see it either on his way back to his apartment.
So we are up to EIGHT visits by the group and one by Jez past the shutter and window and no one reported seeing the shutter open.
What are the chances of that happening, particularly when they were all "on watch" of each others apartment?
That photo was taken by someone who wanted to show the window, which is different from someone passing by looking towards the main entrance to the building.
Heri posted lots of photos from different angles in both daylight and in the evening (although the lighting had been improved when he was there and the trees were cut down).
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 19, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
That photo was taken by someone who wanted to show the window, which is different from someone passing by looking towards the main entrance to the building.
Heri posted lots of photos from different angles in both daylight and in the evening (although the lighting had been improved when he was there and the trees were cut down).
Yes I have seen those photos which is why i didn't post them, because it seems a large spotlight has been added above the apartment since the disappearance.
Given that there were eight trips past that car park i find it inconceivable that no one noticed an open shutter particularly as they were all keen on checking each other's apartments.
Indeed in the case of Matthew he had walked past the apartment window on his 9:35 check, then hopped back through the patio into Gerry's apartment (how he did then when no one said they opened the patio shutter Rachel she said was closed is another issue altogether) and said that he thought natural light was coming into the bedroom.
Would that not have prompted a think about whether or not just a few minutes before he had seen the shutter up?
Again, inconceivable.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Lace on July 19, 2013, 01:39:06 PM
Why did Amaral insist that the window had been cleaned the previous day?
- Why would a cleaner clean a window - which apparently had the shutter permanently down - in the middle of the week - as opposed to the turn-around day?
- The cleaner's statement makes no mention of it.
That is a very good point Carana, do the cleaners usually clean the windows?
I have never seen a cleaner cleaning the windows when I have been away. They come in change the bed and towels, wipe around the surfaces and vacuum.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Lace on July 19, 2013, 02:56:40 PM
Of course, but at night time the contrast would be fully visible against the white washed walls bearing in mind Gerry states that they found the shutters almost fully up.
Four visits past there and no one saw them up? On an apartment they knew their friends children were in and were all "checking"?
That's the stretching the bounds of credibility.
Not if you weren't really looking at the window and just walking quickly by. The curtains were drawn, in that light unless you go right up to it it would look as though the shutter was down.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 19, 2013, 03:07:32 PM
Not if you weren't really looking at the window and just walking quickly by. The curtains were drawn, in that light unless you go right up to it it would look as though the shutter was down.
Well that is your interpretation ans certainly not mine. The shutters up would contrast very heavily with the white washed walls and white closed shutters.
I suggest it is impossible for eight seperate visits past those shutters and for not one of them to notice the shutter was up.
For one thing the white central frame of the window would stand out against the darkness from the room behind it if the shutters were up, replacing the solid white/cream colour when the shutter is down.
Well that is your interpretation ans certainly not mine. The shutters up would contrast very heavily with the white washed walls and white closed shutters.
I suggest it is impossible for eight seperate visits past those shutters and for not one of them to notice the shutter was up.
For one thing the white central frame of the window would stand out against the darkness from the room behind it if the shutters were up, replacing the solid white/cream colour when the shutter is down.
The window is not in the direct line of sight of anyone walking across the carpark to the apartment block - and walking back to the road from the block they would have their backs to it. People look where they are walking - so they wouldn't see the window in 5A unless they had a particlar reason to look across in that direction.
Heri posted an arial photograph with a dotted line showing JT'and Russells path across the car park which showed quite plainly how easy it was for them not to have seen the window.
Unless you were specifically looking to see whether the shutters where up or down, then why would you pay any particular attention to the windows anyway - when you had no reason to.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 19, 2013, 04:35:17 PM
The window is not in the direct line of sight of anyone walking across the carpark to the apartment block - and walking back to the road from the block they would have their backs to it. People look where they are walking - so they wouldn't see the window in 5A unless they had a particlar reason to look across in that direction.
Heri posted an arial photograph with a dotted line showing JT'and Russells path across the car park which showed quite plainly how easy it was for them not to have seen the window.
Unless you were specifically looking to see whether the shutters where up or down, then why would you pay any particular attention to the windows anyway - when you had no reason to.
Jez doesn't appear to have gone past the front of the apartment. You wouldn't see the window, coming up or going down, the hill. I believe there would have also been cars parked, also hiding the view. The lighting is mainly from the centre of the block, where the lift is, all IMO!
Q. Relative to the exact location you met Gerry' I left my apartment pushing my son's pram so that he could sleep. I did not have a particular direction to follow nor did I have a specific time to do this. I left the apartment and turned right. I walked via the lower street, looked to the building block where the McCann apartment was situated and saw a woman dressed in purple clothing. I referred to this woman in relation to the questions asked by Jane Tanner. At the next crossing, I turned right and continued on down the hill. At this point, I saw a man that was coming from the road and was headed to the reception. I believe that he was with a woman but I cannot be precise of any detail about her. It was a tall Caucasian man, with blonde hair in 'rasta style' tied with a band instead of free flowing. When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area. He also was in the WC but appeared to be a taking a long time. I do not remember if he was still in that place when I left. I did not see a woman in that zone. I had never before seen this man and did not see him after this.
The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine's disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club. Bridget and I returned to the apartment and minutes afterward, a uniformed police officer, accompanied by a British man serving as interpreter, showed up. Later we came to know him as Robert Murat. I do not remember if he gave me his details but recently when I was cleaning a bag, I came across a card with his name and telephone number. I believe that he may have given this to me so that we could contact him in case we had any additional information to offer. The police officer asked us if we had noticed anything out of the normal and Robert Murat translated. I spoke to him of the 'rasta man' and the police officer took some notes on paper. He also noted our names and passport numbers. During the days that followed, as we passed through the police cordon, we noticed Robert Murat on numerous occasions. On Friday, the 4th of May or Saturday, 5th of May 2007, at one of the police cordons, I again saw Robert Murat. He told me that they had investigated the lead of the 'rasta man' but that he was a local man and that everything was okay. He thanked me for my collaboration. I never saw Robert prior to his visit to our apartment with the police officer.
After leaving the WC, I continued to walk around the back of the tennis court, and returned via the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex. Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner.
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
The window is not in the direct line of sight of anyone walking across the carpark to the apartment block - and walking back to the road from the block they would have their backs to it. People look where they are walking - so they wouldn't see the window in 5A unless they had a particular reason to look across in that direction.
Heri posted an aerial photograph with a dotted line showing JT'and Russells path across the car park which showed quite plainly how easy it was for them not to have seen the window.
Unless you were specifically looking to see whether the shutters where up or down, then why would you pay any particular attention to the windows anyway - when you had no reason to.
I disagree. The last image kindly posted by DCi clearly shows that when walking out of the car park to the road the window is easily visible to anyone walking that way.
Remember Gerry said it was lifted virtually all the way up. It would and should have stood out a mile.
Not if you weren't really looking at the window and just walking quickly by. The curtains were drawn, in that light unless you go right up to it it would look as though the shutter was down.
No it would not, because you would clearly see the white frame of the windows against the blackness of the room behind it rather than a solid block of light coloured shutter.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 19, 2013, 09:30:37 PM
No it would not, because you would clearly see the white frame of the windows against the blackness of the room behind it rather than a solid block of light coloured shutter.
Yes but my pic, shows the shutter up, more than it was on the night. The reiss pic, shows the cill is slightly below the wall.
Now this one is taken before any forensic people had touched it.
We can't guess how it was before different people had tried lifting it.
Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.
Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?
Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".
It beggars belief.
We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 19, 2013, 09:58:34 PM
t is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.
Walking towards the hall, yes, but not towards Agostinho da Silva. There's an excellent night picture of the Oldfield and McCann windows in Mr Amaral's book, but I don't know how to post it.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 19, 2013, 10:04:04 PM
Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.
Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?
Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".
It beggars belief.
We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.
Gerry, for some reason, wanted to know, even before he rang the police, how an alledged abductor entered the apartment, as IF this would help in any way whatsoever >@@(*&)
Thats on top of him knowing the back door was OPEN
Where is the logic here? Anywhere?
And yes he tampered with the *evidence* and he *knew* he was doing so at the time, as he has said on tv in the Panorama show, he was careful to preserve it *later* by not allowing people into the kids bedroom, and not letting people touch anything, hypocrite
Night now
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 19, 2013, 10:49:05 PM
Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.
Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?
Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".
It beggars belief.
We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.
There was also a lamp on in the living room which would have shone through the bedroom and illuminated the window if, as the McCanns claim, the bedroom door was open.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 19, 2013, 10:53:46 PM
I disagree. The last image kindly posted by DCi clearly shows that when walking out of the car park to the road the window is easily visible to anyone walking that way.
Remember Gerry said it was lifted virtually all the way up. It would and should have stood out a mile.
I maintain it is impossible for eight visits on that road between the group not to see the shutter open.
Well - we shall have to agree to disagree then because the arial photo Heri posted showing the route JT and others took to return to their apartments does quite clearly show how easy it would be not to notice the window.
You are talking with hindsight about the shutters in 5A - but the people walking across the carpark that night had no interest in them . They had one aim in mind and that was to check their children and get back to eating their meal ASAP. There are lots of doors and windows along the front of that block - why would they have any reason, particularly in the darK, to be interested in any of them, let alone one window in particular i.e. 5A?
The photo of just one window is misleading because it doesn't show it in context with all the others along that block and because it is taken in daylight it's irrelevant to this particular debate anyway. IMO.
(Hopefully if Heri pops in he will kindly post the piccie I'm talking about).
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 19, 2013, 11:12:34 PM
Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.
Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?
Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".
It beggars belief.
We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.
So you think 'professional' people don't have the same feelings or reactions as non-professional people? Gerry was a distraught father at the time not a policeman - and the expectation by some that he should have behaved like one is what beggars belief imo , especially as the actual policemen who were supposed to act like policemen failed miserably to do so when they arrived.
If a Firefighter turned up to a fire and found his own daughter had died in it would you expect him to be less traumatised than someone who wasn't a firefighter - because he was used to it. Unbelievable!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 19, 2013, 11:28:39 PM
You are talking with hindsight about the shutters in 5A - but the people walking across the carpark that night had no interest in them . They had one aim in mind and that was to check their children and get back to eating their meal ASAP. There are lots of doors and windows along the front of that block -
There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 19, 2013, 11:41:05 PM
Why not try the shutters instead of searching and calling for your daughter, if you know that she's gone for good ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 19, 2013, 11:59:36 PM
There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.
Amazing coincidence also that Oldfield was asked, or decided, to check inside the apartment, rather than simply at the shutters as every other night, on the very night that the shutters and window were allegedly open ! What are the chances ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 12:12:57 AM
There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.
IIRC Matthew Oldfield walked across the car park with Russell - so IMO it's more likely they were chatting to oneanother and not scrutinising the frontage of the apartment block - (the whole length of which was stretched out before them) - mainly because they had no reason to.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 12:30:20 AM
What won priority is one of those details the devil adores.
We've been here before Anne, have you forgotten? IMO Gerry had a tiny little bit of hope that Madeleine might just have opened the shutters and window herself - because he thought they could not be opened from the outside. So he tried them and found to his horror that they could be opened from the outside - and so that tiny little bit of hope was gone.
Goodnight Anne.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 12:55:16 AM
IIRC Matthew Oldfield walked across the car park with Russell - so IMO it's more likely they were chatting to oneanother and not scrutinising the frontage of the apartment block - (the whole length of which was stretched out before them) - mainly because they had no reason to.
Mr O'Brian heard his daughter crying without sticking his ear against the shutter.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 01:10:45 AM
Tch, tch
You really don't understand, do you?! By now you should have become acquainted with the "methods" invoked/used by one of the most devoted portuguese defenders of the "McCann abduction myth", Mr. Aragão Correia, the psychic lawyer (you know, the one that had a vision that the child had been abducted, killed and drowned in a dam?!).
The abductor simply used magic. Now he was not there, like everyone can rationally envisage after reading the depositions of the caring Tapas parents, and then there he was, behind a door that didn't leave space but for a 2 dimension character, as Mr. McCann remembered months later.
You people lack imagination. He didn't have a body, it was a phantom,...easy to enter and leave rooms.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2013, 01:13:52 AM
The FRONT DOOR was used almost without doubt. Only Amaral and Pat Brown and [ censored word ]s suggest the window for their agenda.
Sorry I have been away for a while. Important guests and a broken computer. Because of guests, hubby unable to find time to repair computer. Many hours spent and now a new modem fitted ... so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 01:14:42 AM
IMO Gerry had a tiny little bit of hope that Madeleine might just have opened the shutters and window herself - because he thought they could not be opened from the outside. So he tried them and found to his horror that they could be opened from the outside - and so that tiny little bit of hope was gone.
Goodnight Anne.
So Mr McCann had a "tiny little hope" and tested it first thing before worrying seriously and starting to think he should ask someone to call the police ? Is it the famous British composure ? Good night, Benice !
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2013, 01:20:02 AM
You really don't understand, do you?! By now you should have become acquainted with the "methods" invoked/used by one of the most devoted portuguese defenders of the "McCann abduction myth", Mr. Aragão Correia, the psychic lawyer (you know, the one that had a vision that the child had been abducted, killed and drowned in a dam?!).
The abductor simply used magic. Now he was not there, like everyone can rationally envisage after reading the depositions of the caring Tapas parents, and then there he was, behind a door that didn't leave space but for a 2 dimension character, as Mr. McCann remembered months later.
You people lack imagination. He didn't have a body, it was a phantom,...easy to enter and leave rooms.
After what you have done Luz, defacing Madeleines posters in PdL like you did, how dare you have the face to say such nasty things about peeps who were trying to help.
There are sufficient people who witnessed what you boasted about, tearing the posters down and defacing them to obscure the contact numbers etc. Enough witnesses for me to be safe to say that.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 01:29:54 AM
They had full view of the patio and steps up to the patio doors. They were only 50 metres away. They were within earshot. Had any of the children yelled them they would have heard.
It was illuminated by the nearby street lamp which was in line with the steps and patio. The sitting room light was left on. The patio doors were closed and an attempt was made to close the curtains over these doors. Now I have tried very very hard and I am unable to close the curtains inside the room when I slide my patio doors closed from the outside. Can you fully close your curtains from outside when you close your patio doors Faith?
So here we have a situation where the curtains are partially open with a light on in the room. Anyone trying to get in would be silhouetted in that gap by the lights inside. No abductor would risk that in full view. So the Mccanns would feel completely safe. Think about it Faith.
In the sleepy little place that PdL was it felt safe.
Amaral himself, when he was trying to prove his theory that no abductor went into the apartment, said that no abductor would dare to go in via the patio doors cos Kate and Gerry were too close and overlooked the patio doors
I understand that in the Uk people can hardly differentiate the difference between yards and meters. I'm fed up with reading that the restaurant was 50 m, 100 m.. away. Either you all live in dolls houses or your vision of distances has suffered a twist.
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
"Within earshot" when you are in a noisy restaurant and your children are more than 500 m away inside an apartment, in a room whose window is in the opposite direction?
There is no lamp street close to the back stairs that lead to the sitting room; There is no deposition that the sitting room lights were on (which would be ridiculous when they argued, when trying to impinge that they left the patio doors open was because the children had a light sleep and opening the front door with the key could awake them - a poor excuse since G.McC said to have used the front door and the key); there is no document that attests that the curtains were attempted to be closed.
Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz
....you people are too creative, aren't you?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 01:31:54 AM
Sorry I have been away for a while. Important guests and a broken computer. Because of guests, hubby unable to find time to repair computer. Many hours spent and now a new modem fitted ... so fingers crossed.
The only people invoking the blasted window were the Tapas & family.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 20, 2013, 07:56:38 AM
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
Sorry I have been away for a while. Important guests and a broken computer. Because of guests, hubby unable to find time to repair computer. Many hours spent and now a new modem fitted ... so fingers crossed.
I ask again, were any of the keys for the front door registered as lost, missing or stolen either at the time or since?
I have posed the question a few times without getting an answer.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
There is a well known clip of Martin Brunt walking the distance while counting his steps. He did it in 80 paces.
Very true Chinagirl. The distance has been measured and confirmed several times over by others on the ground.
The distance from the patio to the tapas bar is 50 metres as the crow flies ie in a straight line across the pool. The actual distance walking it by the shortest route is 70 metres.
There is indeed a streetlight directly across the public road from the pedestrian gate which leads to the 5a patio. However, photographic evidence shows that the angle is such that the light from this lamp only illuminates the gate and a couple of steps nearest the street. This streetlight does NOT shed any light on the patio itself.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2013, 08:29:42 AM
Very true Chinagirl. The distance has been measured and confirmed several times over by others on the ground.
The distance from the patio to the tapas bar is 50 metres as the crow flies ie in a straight line across the pool. The actual distance walking it by the shortest route is 70 metres.
What ever way you look at that,it was inexcusable.
50 or 70 metres, he children were unprotected and it was effectively unlocked.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 08:30:20 AM
So Mr McCann had a "tiny little hope" and tested it first thing before worrying seriously and starting to think he should ask someone to call the police ? Is it the famous British composure ? Good night, Benice !
No its called normal behaviour Anne. Over the years I've read lots of posts from mothers who have 'lost' their little ones whilst out shopping, or on the beach etc etc - thankfully only for a very short time before the were re-united. I've never read one where the first thing the mother did when she realised her child was missing was to ring the police. Instead they all ran round searching frantically for their children. Their posts were to describe the horrific emotions of fear and panic they experienced until their children 'reappeared'.
5A was not a crime scene until after it was established that Madeleine was not anywhere in the apartment or outside in it's immediate vicinity We write knowing that she was not going to be found, but they didn't know that at the time - so of course they would first check everywhere before ringing the police - and that included Gerry checking the shutters - which must have taken him all of 10 seconds.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 08:34:59 AM
No its called normal behaviour Anne. Over the years I've read lots of posts from mothers who have 'lost' their little ones whilst out shopping, or on the beach etc etc - thankfully only for a very short time before the were re-united. I've never read one where the first thing the mother did when she realised her child was missing was to ring the police. Instead they all ran round searching frantically for their children. Their posts were to describe the horrific emotions of fear and panic they experienced until their children 'reappeared'.
5A was not a crime scene until after it was established that Madeleine was not anywhere in the apartment or outside in it's immediate vicinity We write knowing that she was not going to be found, but they didn't know that at the time - so of course they would first check everywhere before ringing the police - and that included Gerry checking the shutters - which must have taken him all of 10 seconds.
This happened to me on a beach on Majorca when my 4-year-old decided to go walkies when my attention was otherwise diverted. Blind panic sets in and you just search.
In my sons case the police found him and I got a rollicking in Spanish!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 08:44:35 AM
I think the fact that we haven't heard any reports of such indicate none were in fact missing.
Which of course does stretch the theory that someone got in through the front door with a key.
When did they get the key? How did they get the key? Did they have the key for 5A already, in which case what are the chances of them having a key for the very apartment the family were in who left their children unattended on a night?
I can't see how it can be considered a definite that the front door was used as entry when there is no shred of direct or indirect evidence (that i can see) to support that theory.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 08:53:01 AM
I understand that in the Uk people can hardly differentiate the difference between yards and meters. I'm fed up with reading that the restaurant was 50 m, 100 m.. away. Either you all live in dolls houses or your vision of distances has suffered a twist.
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
"Within earshot" when you are in a noisy restaurant and your children are more than 500 m away inside an apartment, in a room whose window is in the opposite direction?
There is no lamp street close to the back stairs that lead to the sitting room; There is no deposition that the sitting room lights were on (which would be ridiculous when they argued, when trying to impinge that they left the patio doors open was because the children had a light sleep and opening the front door with the key could awake them - a poor excuse since G.McC said to have used the front door and the key); there is no document that attests that the curtains were attempted to be closed.
Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz
....you people are too creative, aren't you?
Quite aside from the distances you mention (which are wild exaggerations) and I see that Chinagirl has already posted the Google Earth distances, there was a light on in the livingroom according to Matt's rog. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open. Erm, I've spent a lot of time debating how far the door was open, from previous questioning, and, you know, it wasn't flat back against the wall, because that would have looked odd, it was just sort of halfway open, so it seemed slightly unusual that it should be so wide open, because you could see straight into the middle of the room from the angle that you approach it, because the, you've got sofas here and you've got a bookcase here and you have to come out, you've got sort of the wall of the bedroom and then it goes back where the bathroom is and then comes out again, so you've got to come out round this wall to sort of, not out round this wall, but you come in and the doorway is sort of recessed, so you can see pretty much straight into the room from the doorway back or certainly as soon as you get past that final wall.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 08:56:19 AM
This is something Ocean Club would like to keep secret for obvious reasons. We can't say for definite that a key was used but it is a distinct possibility.
We do know however that staff keys for the rental apartments were kept in a safe in the garage and that most of the staff had access to them routinely.
We also know that there had been burglaries and attempted burglaries at apartments at Ocean Club Garden in which the perpetrators appear to have had access using a key.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 08:56:53 AM
So you think 'professional' people don't have the same feelings or reactions as non-professional people? Gerry was a distraught father at the time not a policeman - and the expectation by some that he should have behaved like one is what beggars belief imo , especially as the actual policemen who were supposed to act like policemen failed miserably to do so when they arrived.
If a Firefighter turned up to a fire and found his own daughter had died in it would you expect him to be less traumatised than someone who wasn't a firefighter - because he was used to it. Unbelievable!
As a trained doctor Gerry (and Kate) would be taught to function under stress and no doubt possess an analytical mind which functions well under pressure. Without that as doctors you will get nowhere and clearly Gerry has.
That's the point about being a professional.
You arrive back at your apartment, your child has gone and the shutters are up. I cannot, for the life of me, see a valid reason why Gerry needed to touch the shutters until the police arrived.
With the advent of programs like CSI and all the crime docs on TV, everyone knows the drill with forensics etc and crime scenes.
The point is that the forensic opportunities were lost specifically by Gerry's actions on those shutters.
Your analogy regarding the fireman is not valid unless you believe Madeleine was DEAD in the apartment when Gerry returned.
Have you got something to tell us Benice!! 8(0(*
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
This is something Ocean Club would like to keep secret for obvious reasons. We can't say for definite that a key was used but it is a distinct possibility.
We do know however is that the keys for the rental apartments were kept in a safe in the garage and that most of the staff had access to them routinely.
We also know that there had been burglaries and attempted burglaries at apartments at Ocean Club Garden in which the perpetrators appear to have had access using a key.
Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.
Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?
Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?
I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 09:02:36 AM
I don't believe Gerry could have reached the raised shutter from the outside so he could only have examined it AFTER he lowered it.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Chinagirl on July 20, 2013, 09:04:55 AM
But were any reported missing?
Did the police investigate this possibility? If they didn't, it was a huge omission.
We don't know, but it is a v ery reasonable speculation that a key was acquired and thus the front door used to gain entry and exit.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 09:10:33 AM
Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.
Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?
Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?
I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.
I don't think we even know if Mrs Fenn's intruder was ever caught...I doubt it.
The evidence is that the McCanns apartment was being watched. It would appear to be a case of child abduction planned and executed with precision.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 20, 2013, 09:26:31 AM
As a trained doctor Gerry (and Kate) would be taught to function under stress and no doubt possess an analytical mind which functions well under pressure. Without that as doctors you will get nowhere and clearly Gerry has.
That's the point about being a professional.
You arrive back at your apartment, your child has gone and the shutters are up. I cannot, for the life of me, see a valid reason why Gerry needed to touch the shutters until the police arrived.
With the advent of programs like CSI and all the crime docs on TV, everyone knows the drill with forensics etc and crime scenes.
The point is that the forensic opportunities were lost specifically by Gerry's actions on those shutters.
Your analogy regarding the fireman is not valid unless you believe Madeleine was DEAD in the apartment when Gerry returned.
Have you got something to tell us Benice!! 8(0(*
Once again you are talking with hindsight. We know Madeleine was not going to be found, but in those first few moments they didn't know that. Of course they would search the whole place inside and out. Good grief - even one of the policemen who first turned up searched the whole apartment! If you want to criticise anyone - for the loss of forensics - then maybe you should criticise him instead of the panic stricken parents.
The idea that professional people do not have the same feelings, emotions and reactions as other people when it comes to the wellbeing of their own children is quite ridiculous IMO.
It would appear you have missed the point of my analogy re Firefighters.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2013, 09:29:02 AM
Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.
Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?
Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?
I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.
There is the classic quote from GM.
'..NOTHING WAS TAKEN OF ANY VALUE..'
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 09:35:43 AM
What 'evidence' is there that the McCann's apartment was being watched ?
Ask Luz... Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor « Reply #2 on: Today at 01:40:41 AM »
Quote
On May, 3 2007 nobody took a child trough a window from the apartment 5A before 22:00 h. That I know a 100%. There are witnesses and if the case ever goes to court they will appear.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2013, 09:44:46 AM
I don't think we even know if Mrs Fenn's intruder was ever caught...I doubt it.
The evidence is that the McCanns apartment was being watched. It would appear to be a case of child abduction planned and executed with precision.
Precisely and quantitatively, what evidence is there that the Mccanns apartment was being watched ?
Secondly, I wonder how many other girls of Madeleine's age where in PDL at the time.
Why also would an abductor take Madeleine when her younger sister was there, and far easier to carry and certainly have fewer memories of family life if taken ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 20, 2013, 09:48:14 AM
Ask Luz... Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor « Reply #2 on: Today at 01:40:41 AM »
Quote
On May, 3 2007 nobody took a child trough a window from the apartment 5A before 22:00 h. That I know a 100%. There are witnesses and if the case ever goes to court they will appear.
I was asking John because he stated that there was 'evidence' that the McCann's apartment was being watched
Do you know what the evidence is Carana ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 09:53:50 AM
Did the police investigate this possibility? If they didn't, it was a huge omission.
We don't know, but it is a v ery reasonable speculation that a key was acquired and thus the front door used to gain entry and exit.
I don't know if the police did, they certainly should have done in the early days, that is for sure.
(See! Whilst not a believer in the abduction theory i have no issue in actually stating what the police did or didn't do and whether it was right or wrong!)
I disagree though regarding it being "a very reasonable speculation" as no one has ever come forward to say there key was stolen, lost, borrowed or missing.
No locksmith has ever come forward to say he cut a key that matched that one.
Certainly given the media exposure of the case you would think had someone any knowledge of their key going missing or of someone cutting a key like that then they would have come forward in the intervening years.
So that means you are relying on an inside job from someone with access to the key and an inside job on a locksmith.
We also have to look at the probability of someone having the very key to the very apartment that a child was staying and was left unattended. That is a huge coincidence!
Why not any of the other apartments where the children weren't being left? Another huge coincidence!
And then it's a what point do you accept huge coincidences become at best, unlikely, or at worst, impossible?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 09:56:18 AM
''This is the classic quote which we sceptics like to quote out of context so that we can pretend it has a completely different meaning to the correct one''.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2013, 10:03:22 AM
''This is the classic quote which we sceptics like to quote out of context so that we can pretend it has a completely different meaning to the correct one''.
Or it was a Freudian slip by the Mccanns, one of many.
and there's there's another by Mitchell.....
"I believe Kate and Gerry are not responsible for Madeleine's death"
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 10:10:20 AM
Or it was a Freudian slip by the Mccanns, one of many.
and there's there's another by Mitchell.....
"I believe Kate and Gerry are not responsible for Madeleine's death"
LOL Stephen why is it that no-one connected with the McCanns, or the McCanns themselves for that matter, are ever allowed to make a normal slip of the tongue, or use the wrong word, just like everyone else in the world occasionally does - without it being leapt upon by sceptics and described as a 'Freudian' slip with sinister undertones. Absolute nonsense - not to mention 'desperation' IMO.
I suppose you've never had a slip of the tongue, or got your words mixed up - ever - in your whole life.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 10:20:19 AM
What 'evidence' is there that the McCann's apartment was being watched ?
Evidence by several independent witnesses who saw a man lurking in the shadows in the nights before the abduction. Once such person might have been a coincidence but the fact that more than one witness evidenced this renders it very suspicious.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 10:21:49 AM
Once again you are talking with hindsight. We know Madeleine was not going to be found, but in those first few moments they didn't know that. Of course they would search the whole place inside and out. Good grief - even one of the policemen who first turned up searched the whole apartment! If you want to criticise anyone - for the loss of forensics - then maybe you should criticise him instead of the panic stricken parents.
The idea that professional people do not have the same feelings, emotions and reactions as other people when it comes to the wellbeing of their own children is quite ridiculous IMO.
It would appear you have missed the point of my analogy re Firefighters.
No Gerry had tampered with the shutters BEFORE the police arrived. Just as all and sundry were in the apartment before the police arrived.
I do not know how seeing open shutters being opened again could help find a missing child. There is no justifiable or logical reason for doing that.
In fact a conclusion could be drawn that it was done deliberately because there is no other viable reason for them to be touched.
Nobody is saying professional people do not have the same feelings as anyone else. What i am saying is that as doctors they are trained to function under pressure and stress and to be able to manage those feelings.
In your fireman analogy you said when a fireman found his child DEAD. Unless you are comparing Gerry finding his child DEAD your analogy is not valid.
Which is why i wondered if you were tacitly admitting you believed Gerry found Madeleine dead?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 20, 2013, 10:23:36 AM
Evidence by several independent witnesses who saw a man lurking in the shadows in the nights before the abduction. Once such person might have been a coincidence but the fact that more than one witness evidenced this renders it very suspicious.
You mean the witnesses mentioned by the McCann's hired private-detective on their documentary ?
I thought they had been invesigated, identified, and eliminated by the police ... is that not correct ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 10:35:22 AM
described as a 'Freudian' slip with sinister undertones.
"Freudian slips" have nothing sinister ! According to Freud the unconscious expresses itself, foiling the barriers of our internal censor, the superego. It's a precious opportunity for self-examination.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 10:36:10 AM
No Gerry had tampered with the shutters BEFORE the police arrived. Just as all and sundry were in the apartment before the police arrived.
I do not know how seeing open shutters being opened again could help find a missing child. There is no justifiable or logical reason for doing that.
In fact a conclusion could be drawn that it was done deliberately because there is no other viable reason for them to be touched.
Nobody is saying professional people do not have the same feelings as anyone else. What i am saying is that as doctors they are trained to function under pressure and stress and to be able to manage those feelings.
In your fireman analogy you said when a fireman found his child DEAD. Unless you are comparing Gerry finding his child DEAD your analogy is not valid.
Which is why i wondered if you were tacitly admitting you believed Gerry found Madeleine dead?
Gerry didn't 'tamper' with the shutters, he checked them to see if they could be raised from outside - which must have taken him a matter of seconds. I've explained why I think he may have done that - so I'm not going to repeat it.
You quite clearly said that professionals would not/should not react the same as other people to a terrible shock concerning one of their children. My analagy was to portray that loving parents' professions have no bearing on sudden shock involving their childlren - no matter what the cause of that acute shock may be. Death or abduction are both monumental shocks in anyone's book.
Of course I don't think Madeleine was found dead in the apartment - because if her parents were cold, cruel and calculating enough to decide to dispose of her body, then they would have coldly and calmly devised a much simpler plan to cover that up - than the super-complicated, convoluted one which is put forward.
That elephant in the room just won't go away will it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 10:53:33 AM
You mean the witnesses mentioned by the McCann's hired private-detective on their documentary ?
I thought they had been invesigated, identified, and eliminated by the police ... is that not correct ?
Aah. I see what John was referring to. Tasmin and a few other people. So, yes, I'd agree with him that there was evidence of people who appeared potentially suspicious to the witnesses.
Whether they were all identified and eliminated doesn't seem quite clear.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 10:55:51 AM
You mean the witnesses mentioned by the McCann's hired private-detective on their documentary ?
I thought they had been invesigated, identified, and eliminated by the police ... is that not correct ?
I mean the guy standing in the shadows immediately opposite the McCann patio gate seen by a nursery worker and the guy lurking in a stair well seen by someone else. These are but two.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 10:57:01 AM
Of course I don't think Madeleine was found dead in the apartment - because if her parents were cold, cruel and calculating enough to decide to dispose of her body, then they would have coldly and calmly devised a much simpler plan to cover that up - than the super-complicated, convoluted one which is put forward.
That elephant in the room just won't go away will it?
Don't you see that abduction was the only way to dismiss any blame on them (the broken shutters fairytale is exemplary) ? There's nothing particularly "cold, cruel and calculating" there, it's just human !
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 10:58:26 AM
There is nothing intriguing about my statement. There are apartments right in front of 5A OC ...
As correctly pointed out by Sadie, what you can now see of the front of apt 5a at Ocean Club Garden and what you could see 6 years ago are two very different things.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 11:02:40 AM
I mean the guy standing in the shadows immediately opposite the McCann patio gate seen by a nursery worker and the guy lurking in a stair well seen by someone else. These are but two.
Lurking?! What the F does that mean? If I pass a house and look at the garden or stop at the front porch to smoke a cigarette is lurking?!
In a town with a little over 15 hundred inhabitants and a few hundred tourists, 2 "lurkers"?!!!, that's very significant, indeed.
The McCann were not in the desert, in case people don't know. They were in one of the most frequented resorts at that time of the year.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 11:05:48 AM
As correctly pointed out by Sadie, what you can now see of the front of apt 5a at Ocean Club Garden and what you could see 6 years ago are two very different things.
The only difference is that the trees in the parking lot are now a little more grown up and the place looks more deteriorated.
My answer referred to 2007, May, 3rd to 4th.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 11:06:27 AM
Observing a flat without any movement because it's day-time and occupants are busy outside in order to plan a night-time abduction is rather unexpected. A red herring ? Focus on Spottyface leaves Noface out of trouble ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 11:07:47 AM
Gerry didn't 'tamper' with the shutters, he checked them to see if they could be raised from outside - which must have taken him a matter of seconds. I've explained why I think he may have done that - so I'm not going to repeat it.
You quite clearly said that professionals would not/should not react the same as other people to a terrible shock concerning one of their children. My analagy was to portray that loving parents' professions have no bearing on sudden shock involving their childlren - no matter what the cause of that acute shock may be. Death or abduction are both monumental shocks in anyone's book.
Of course I don't think Madeleine was found dead in the apartment - because if her parents were cold, cruel and calculating enough to decide to dispose of her body, then they would have coldly and calmly devised a much simpler plan to cover that up - than the super-complicated, convoluted one which is put forward.
That elephant in the room just won't go away will it?
You may think all you wish, the fact is that if he believed there had been a crime he knew better than to mess up with every little part of the "crime scene" as he and all of the Tapas did. Do you believe they were so ignorant or stupid that they didn't know they couldn't/shouldn't do that?! Come on, that was deliberate and tells a lot.
By the way, what better plan could they have envisioned to get rid of their little girl's body than the one they used? They got away with it, didn't they?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2013, 11:11:05 AM
This is something Ocean Club would like to keep secret for obvious reasons. We can't say for definite that a key was used but it is a distinct possibility.
We do know however that staff keys for the rental apartments were kept in a safe in the garage and that most of the staff had access to them routinely.
We also know that there had been burglaries and attempted burglaries at apartments at Ocean Club Garden in which the perpetrators appear to have had access using a key.
Do you have any evidence supporting the use of a key in the burglaries John ?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 11:11:37 AM
Don't you see that abduction was the only way to dismiss any blame on them (the broken shutters fairytale is exemplary) ? There's nothing particularly "cold, cruel and calculating" there, it's just human !
But Anne, there were much easier ways to dispose of the body and then claim abduction - which wouldn't have needed to involve anyone else at all.
If you really don't think you have to be cold calculating monsters to be capable of doing what the McCanns are accused of doing - then I'm very surprised.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: John on July 20, 2013, 11:11:56 AM
Lurking?! What the F does that mean? If I pass a house and look at the garden or stop at the front porch to smoke a cigarette is lurking?!
In a town with a little over 15 hundred inhabitants and a few hundred tourists, 2 "lurkers"?!!!, that's very significant, indeed.
The McCann were not in the desert, in case people don't know. They were in one of the most frequented resorts at that time of the year.
Lurking means exactly that. A stranger lurking suspiciously in a place where he had no business who moved away when seen. Had it not been suspicious it would not have been reported to the police.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 11:14:26 AM
As correctly pointed out by Sadie, what you can now see of the front of apt 5a at Ocean Club Garden and what you could see 6 years ago are two very different things.
Are there photos from then and now showing the differences?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 11:21:55 AM
Lurking means exactly that. A stranger lurking suspiciously in a place where he had no business who moved away when seen. Had it not been suspicious it would not have been reported to the police.
In that case we have a problem because portuguese people are naturally inquisitive and seldom stop at places just to look at.
About the cases you mention, I only recall it being reported by british subjects, after the fact. For me those were just forceful attempts to produce alleged facts, as significant as the thousands of false leads the police received all those months. In fact after evaluation they were dismissed as not significant.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 11:23:48 AM
You may think all you wish, the fact is that if he believed there had been a crime he knew better than to mess up with every little part of the "crime scene" as he and all of the Tapas did. Do you believe they were so ignorant or stupid that they didn't know they couldn't/shouldn't do that?! Come on, that was deliberate and tells a lot.
By the way, what better plan could they have envisioned to get rid of their little girl's body than the one they used? They got away with it, didn't they?
They could have disposed of the body in the middle of the night - in the same unfindable place which they apparently knew about. Then they could go to bed and in the morning call the police and say they woke up to find the front door ajar and their daughter missing. What could be simpler?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 11:26:34 AM
Lurking means exactly that. A stranger lurking suspiciously in a place where he had no business who moved away when seen. Had it not been suspicious it would not have been reported to the police.
But how does that constitute clear proof that the McCann's and an abductor were actively watching the McCann's?
Also if the McCann's were being watched then wouldn't the abductor know they checked every 30 minutes or so?
If so why would he attempt to get in whilst Gerry was there or just leaving?
If the statements are true he had a window of opportunity of around 1 minute 30 seconds to perform the following:
Enter the apartment Sedate all three children - in the dark Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark Open the (curtains) shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right, which is the way he would have approached her in the bed. Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
So bearing in mind what he could could achieve in 1 minute 30 seconds why would he take the risk of entering the apartment right at the point of Gerry leaving and being on the street next to the apartment when he knew if he waited 5 or 10 minutes until after Gerry had left the scene he would still have had enough time to perform the abduction.
How would he know for example that Gerry would not go back into the apartment after his chat with Jez?
It's a huge risk and completely nonsensical.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 11:26:55 AM
Are there photos from then and now showing the differences?
I was there last weekend and there are differences, but I don't think it is important for the case in question. If nobody has actual pics I may take some next time I go visit my family, maybe next week.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
But Anne, there were much easier ways to dispose of the body and then claim abduction - which wouldn't have needed to involve anyone else at all.
If you really don't think you have to be cold calculating monsters to be capable of doing what the McCanns are accused of doing - then I'm very surprised.
The McCanns did with their holiday companions what they did on the phone with their family members and friends : they hammered the abduction doxa as the truth. Disposing of a body isn't a crime like killing a pregnant wife and two kids as Doctor McDonald (who looks nice) did, don't you think ? If there are "much easier ways" to dispose of the body, what are they ? The fact you unconditionally approve whatever the McCanns do or say reveals amazingly well that they ruled very efficiently out any possible blame.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: icabodcrane on July 20, 2013, 11:30:57 AM
Are there photos from then and now showing the differences?
I'd like to see those photos too
In order to support the claims being made ( that, at the time of the disappearance, the McCann apartment front was so secluded that it could not be seen from the apartment block opposite ) we really do need 'before and after' photos in order to make a comparison
Unless that comparison can be established with evidence, the claim is speculative and worthless
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 11:31:25 AM
They could have disposed of the body in the middle of the night - in the same unfindable place which they apparently knew about. Then they could go to bed and in the morning call the police and say they woke up to find the front door ajar and their daughter missing. What could be simpler?
No its not. That's because under that scenario they have no alibis nor independent witnesses able to show that they were not there at the time of the crime.
If it is presented as an abduction whilst they are elsewhere they can say they were not at the scene when the crime took place.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 11:43:17 AM
Gerry didn't 'tamper' with the shutters, he checked them to see if they could be raised from outside - which must have taken him a matter of seconds. I've explained why I think he may have done that - so I'm not going to repeat it.
You quite clearly said that professionals would not/should not react the same as other people to a terrible shock concerning one of their children. My analagy was to portray that loving parents' professions have no bearing on sudden shock involving their childlren - no matter what the cause of that acute shock may be. Death or abduction are both monumental shocks in anyone's book.
Of course I don't think Madeleine was found dead in the apartment - because if her parents were cold, cruel and calculating enough to decide to dispose of her body, then they would have coldly and calmly devised a much simpler plan to cover that up - than the super-complicated, convoluted one which is put forward.
That elephant in the room just won't go away will it?
The definition of tamper is:
interfere with (something) in order to cause damage or make unauthorized alterations
Gerry interfered with the shutters to case damage to the crime scene.
Let me quote a piece on it:
Quote
Solid-state & materials analysis is a well financed and internationally based investigative tool of great sophistication, primarily owing to its importance in blast investigation and aircraft accident reconstruction. As an internationally significant case the cost was fully justified here. Laboratory analysis of the shutters would have aimed at answering the question: was the shutter opened from inside or outside?
Raising, via a drive belt and drum, involves measurable distributed tensile forces on the lightweight metal shutter – the metal is pulled up. Raising the shutters from outside involves quite different stresses: tensile forces are insignificant while compressive and torsion forces are heavily present—the metal is pushed up and twisted. Micro-examination can reveal the effect of such forces on the paint surface, for example and, by the redistribution of particulates, recent creasing (the result of torsion forces) may be identifiable.
On May 4 and subsequent evenings video/DVD recording from outside and from the bedroom doorway at corresponding and sunset-corrected times would provide court exhibit evidence of the following:
The light entering the bedroom from outside The obviousness or otherwise of the open shutters to passers-by on the street Visibility in the room at the appropriate corrected times and Whether, therefore, Mathew Oldfield's claimed inability to describe the lighting conditions and shutter state was credible or obviously untrue. Finally, knowing how open the window was would enable controlled testing to establish the feasibility of the famous curtain blow and slamming bedroom door (with patio doors already closed) described by Kate McCann.
The exact shutter height at 10PM was the critical parameter for the forensic examinations. Kate McCann said the shutters were "fully open". So what did the parents do? Gerry immediately "lowered the shutter" (Madeleine page 73), destroying any possibility of the load forces test or other aperture dependent tests, including visibility tests, producing any meaningful results. The police have never known how far the shutter was actually open.
The other critical area for study was, of course, laboratory investigation to determine whether the shutters were opened from inside or out. So what did Gerry McCann, keeper of the "crime scene", do? He "rushed outside" and pushed the shutters upwards, thus destroying at a stroke all possibility of materials analysis:thenceforth any lab results could be put down to Gerry and were therefore forensically worthless. Mathew Oldfield's 9.30 PM evidence at once became incapable of assessment against the facts. And just to complete this triumph of evidence preservation, Kate McCann, as well as "throwing cupboards and wardrobes open" – making it impossible for police to assess at a glance any signs of intrusion or struggle – handled the window, presumably to close it.
The couple had destroyed all the known material evidence of the child's exit from the apartment.
That's the significance of tampering with crime scenes.
I covered your claim about simpler ways in a previous post.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 11:44:50 AM
No its not. That's because under that scenario they have no alibis nor independent witnesses able to show that they were not there at the time of the crime.
If it is presented as an abduction whilst they are elsewhere they can say they were not at the scene when the crime took place.
What alibis/witnesses would they need? They would claim they were fast asleep in bed while this crime happened.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 11:47:24 AM
I understand that in the Uk people can hardly differentiate the difference between yards and meters. I'm fed up with reading that the restaurant was 50 m, 100 m.. away. Either you all live in dolls houses or your vision of distances has suffered a twist.
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
"Within earshot" when you are in a noisy restaurant and your children are more than 500 m away inside an apartment, in a room whose window is in the opposite direction?
There is no lamp street close to the back stairs that lead to the sitting room; There is no deposition that the sitting room lights were on (which would be ridiculous when they argued, when trying to impinge that they left the patio doors open was because the children had a light sleep and opening the front door with the key could awake them - a poor excuse since G.McC said to have used the front door and the key); there is no document that attests that the curtains were attempted to be closed.
Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz
....you people are too creative, aren't you?
A response from you: Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor « Reply #11 on: Today at 10:33:19 AM » I've only allowed myself to exaggerate the distance between OC and the front door of 5A, just to make you reflect that there was no way the children could be within hearing distance from where their parents allegedly were dining.
You could have said that you didn't believe that the children would have been within hearing distance from the restaurant without stating that the children were left 500m away when the actual distance to the open patio door was 77.38m
That is not a mild exaggeration of a few metres, is it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 11:51:25 AM
They could have disposed of the body in the middle of the night - in the same unfindable place which they apparently knew about. Then they could go to bed and in the morning call the police and say they woke up to find the front door ajar and their daughter missing. What could be simpler?
Really?! I reckon you have not seen as many TV crime series as they have. Waiting for the morning would make them prime suspects immediately, they desperately needed witnesses...and it worked for some time, didn't it?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
A response from you: Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor « Reply #11 on: Today at 10:33:19 AM » I've only allowed myself to exaggerate the distance between OC and the front door of 5A, just to make you reflect that there was no way the children could be within hearing distance from where their parents allegedly were dining.
You could have said that you didn't believe that the children would have been within hearing distance from the restaurant without stating that the children were left 500m away when the actual distance to the open patio door was 77.38m
That is not a mild exaggeration of a few metres, is it?
I have already admitted I exaggerated in the distance between the Tapas and the front room (where the children were staying) at 5A. But it is not 77.83 m, it's 270m and there is a building with walls between the room and the patio with the pool and all the shrubs where the Tapas was located. Insisting that the children could be heard, even if they came to the back room that was at least 150 m away (through the reception and up the stairs), is throwing sand into everyone's eyes. But that is your appointed job, I guess.
Your Lady Kate didn't feel she could be heard from the balcony of the back room to the Tapas, what makes you think little children in distress could?!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 11:57:44 AM
interfere with (something) in order to cause damage or make unauthorized alterations
Gerry interfered with the shutters to case damage to the crime scene.
Let me quote a piece on it:
That's the significance of tampering with crime scenes.
I covered your claim about simpler ways in a previous post.
So what actual damage did Gerry cause to the shutters?
If they were going to claim the shutters had been smashed/jemmied/forced as a vital part of their plan, then don't you think he would have made sure they were actually broken or smashed in readiness for the police to see them? Or do you think they were so stupid they thought the police wouldn't notice.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 12:02:56 PM
So what actual damage did Gerry cause to the shutters?
If they were going to claim the shutters had been smashed/jemmied/forced as a vital part of their plan, then don't you think he would have made sure they were actually broken or smashed in readiness for the police to see them? Or do you think they were so stupid they thought the police wouldn't notice.
I didn't say he damaged the shutters. I said he damaged the crime scene, and the lengthy piece i quoted explained why.
It is possible that Gerry's tampering was to try and break the shutters but it failed. I don't think he could do it in the time he had before the police showed up.
That of course did not stop Gerry telling his friends and family they were broken (who duly and dutifully reported that to the UK media) when he knew full well it had not happened.
It was, one must surmise, an attempt to set a narrative for the UK media that supported their version of events because it bore no relation to the truth at the time he gave his friends and family that information.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
Rigor mortis required quick intervention. The body had to be disposed of before the emptying of the place. The front door ajar story wouldn't have resisted total lack of intrusion evidence. Their chance was Ms Tanner's sighting. Without it they would certainly have been squeezed, media, celebrities, authorities and pope would have thought thrice before supporting them.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 12:10:11 PM
Really?! I reckon you have not seen as many TV crime series as they have. Waiting for the morning would make them prime suspects immediately, they desperately needed witnesses...and it worked for some time, didn't it?
It would not be unusual for the parents to have been asleep all night. It's a perfectly feasible alibi for a crime which could be committed in less than a couple of minutes in the middle of the night - whilst the parents were fast asleep in their own bedroom.
Isn't this what had happened elsewhere in this area in the previous 3 years - where offenders got into apartments during the night and sexually assaulted children.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 12:12:09 PM
It would not be unusual for the parents to have been asleep all night. It's a perfectly feasible alibi for a crime which could be committed in less than a couple of minutes in the middle of the night - whilst the parents were fast asleep in their own bedroom.
Isn't this what had happened elsewhere in this area in the previous 3 years - where offenders got into apartments during the night and sexually assaulted children.
Not in Portugal.
No Elizabeth or Edward Smarts here...Gerry might have learnt a thing or two with him.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 12:15:08 PM
It would not be unusual for the parents to have been asleep all night. It's a perfectly feasible alibi for a crime which could be committed in less than a couple of minutes in the middle of the night - whilst the parents were fast asleep in their own bedroom.
No you keep ignoring the key issue. There would have been no independent witness verification of them, or their movements on or around the crime scene at the time of the crime happening.
This would instantly put them in the frame with investigating police.
After all in most child disappearances statistically speaking family members or friends are more likely to have carried out such crimes than random strangers.
So under your scenario the only evidence to support the parents would be their own statements which could not be verified by third party witnesses.
It would throw up a huge red flag right away with investigators.
Isn't this what had happened elsewhere in this area in the previous 3 years - where offenders got into apartments during the night and sexually assaulted children.
Is there a source for these attacks?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 12:18:41 PM
The GNR records would prove you wrong. The crimes were reported to the police.
This is an extract from a letter of complaint written by one of the parents to the GNR.
Quote:
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice................Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse......indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he's not stopped. Unquote
That letter was sent to the GNR six months before Madeleine was abducted - and will be in their files.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 12:24:54 PM
The GNR records would prove you wrong. The crimes were reported to the police.
This is an extract from a letter of complaint written by one of the parents to the GNR.
Quote:
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice................Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse......indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he's not stopped. Unquote
That letter was sent to the GNR six months before Madeleine was abducted - and will be in their files.
As you must know that letter was an hoax immediately exposed by the competent authorities. Only the readers of the British trash journos keep believing that ridiculous attempt to denigrate the Algarve as the safe place that it is for families and children. So far the only increase in crime that we have here is from the British youngsters that haven't learned to hold their alcohol consumption under control.
Don't take me wrong, I don't wish more Brits here. I have many friends that I cherish and welcome but I do not wish that more Britons come to this place. I love to feel safe in my home and not having McCanns coming over with their circuses to wash their mistakes.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 12:27:54 PM
Isn't this what had happened elsewhere in this area in the previous 3 years - where offenders got into apartments during the night and sexually assaulted children.
Are you by chance one of the victims ? If so, as you're anonymous here, can you tell how those offenders got inside ? And can you also explain why the police wasn't called ? There was no forensic evidence of abuse in the 5A.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
No you keep ignoring the key issue. There would have been no independent witness verification of them, or their movements on or around the crime scene at the time of the crime happening. This would instantly put them in the frame with investigating police.
After all in most child disappearances statistically speaking family members or friends are more likely to have carried out such crimes than random strangers.
So under your scenario the only evidence to support the parents would be their own statements which could not be verified by third party witnesses.
It would throw up a huge red flag right away with investigators. Is there a source for these attacks?
Nonsense - even Amaral said an intruder could have entered the apartment with a key.
Of course they would be investigated, but with no body, no motive, no car and no knowledge of the area - and a history which showed how wanted and adored their beloved daughter was - then - coupled of course with their apparently amazing Oscar winning acting skills - what could be proved against them?
The only involvement the Tapas 7 would have would be to confirm that the McCanns behaved perfectly normally on the 3rd. They would not need to be involved in any other way - especially Jane Tanner.
Statistics show that stranger abduction happens. And that is all we need to know.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Are you by chance one of the victims ? If so, as you're anonymous here, can you tell how those offenders got inside ? And can you also explain why the police wasn't called ? There was no forensic evidence of abuse in the 5A.
She is just using the McCann confabulation to try to pass on their excuse that the child was taken by a paedophile(s). These poor followers went as far as inventing that there was a network organized to grab poor little madeleine, as if there weren't more beautiful abandoned and vulnerable children. Their lack of regard for the true victims of these crimes disgust me.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Luz on July 20, 2013, 12:41:26 PM
They had full view of the patio and steps up to the patio doors. They were only 50 metres away. They were within earshot. Had any of the children yelled them they would have heard.
It was illuminated by the nearby street lamp which was in line with the steps and patio. The sitting room light was left on. The patio doors were closed and an attempt was made to close the curtains over these doors. Now I have tried very very hard and I am unable to close the curtains inside the room when I slide my patio doors closed from the outside. Can you fully close your curtains from outside when you close your patio doors Faith?
So here we have a situation where the curtains are partially open with a light on in the room. Anyone trying to get in would be silhouetted in that gap by the lights inside. No abductor would risk that in full view. So the Mccanns would feel completely safe. Think about it Faith.
In the sleepy little place that PdL was it felt safe.
Amaral himself, when he was trying to prove his theory that no abductor went into the apartment, said that no abductor would dare to go in via the patio doors cos Kate and Gerry were too close and overlooked the patio doors
There was no abductor.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2013, 12:47:31 PM
Very true Chinagirl. The distance has been measured and confirmed several times over by others on the ground.
The distance from the patio to the tapas bar is 50 metres as the crow flies ie in a straight line across the pool. The actual distance walking it by the shortest route is 70 metres.
There is indeed a streetlight directly across the public road from the pedestrian gate which leads to the 5a patio. However, photographic evidence shows that the angle is such that the light from this lamp only illuminates the gate and a couple of steps nearest the street. This streetlight does NOT shed any light on the patio itself.
It does John, maybe not onto the flooring itself, but via the arched unglazed patio window, anyone walking across that patio would illuminated. And everything being so brightly painted white, my bet is that even the patio floor would get some reflected light
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 01:04:32 PM
Nonsense - even Amaral said an intruder could have entered the apartment with a key.
Of course they would be investigated, but with no body, no motive, no car and no knowledge of the area - and a history which showed how wanted and adored their beloved daughter was - then - coupled of course with their apparently amazing Oscar winning acting skills - what could be proved against them?
The only involvement the Tapas 7 would have would be to confirm that the McCanns behaved perfectly normally on the 3rd. They would not need to be involved in any other way - especially Jane Tanner.
Statistics show that stranger abduction happens. And that is all we need to know.
Apologies for the confusion. I did not mean "key" in the literal sense. I meant the key issue in terms of why a simpler story of them being in the apartment at night when Madeleine was taken would not work.
That key issues revolves around the fact that a simpler statement of them being there at the crime scene at the time of the crime taking place increases the suspicion of them as they have no third party independent witnessese or alibis to put distance between them and the crime/crime scene.
In relation to the key itself, of course it was a possibility. However there was no evidence of how, when and where a key was taken and no evidence of how a copy was cut.
In relation to the issues you raise:
Quote
but with no body, no motive, no car and no knowledge of the area - and a history which showed how wanted and adored their beloved daughter was - then - coupled of course with their apparently amazing Oscar winning acting skills - what could be proved against them
Motive - due to neglectful reason their daughter had an accident and die for which they could be blamed. No car - Body could have been hidden or moved on foot No body - people are convicted all the time without a body being found.
And the statistics show that parental / family / friends are by far the biggest perpatrators of such crimes.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2013, 01:06:51 PM
Apologies for the confusion. I did not mean "key" in the literal sense. I meant the key issue in terms of why a simpler story of them being in the apartment at night when Madeleine was taken would not work.
That key issues revolves around the fact that a simpler statement of them being there at the crime scene at the time of the crime taking place increases the suspicion of them as they have no third party independent witnessese or alibis to put distance between them and the crime/crime scene.
In relation to the key itself, of course it was a possibility. However there was no evidence of how, when and where a key was taken and no evidence of how a copy was cut.
In relation to the issues you raise:
Motive - due to neglectful reason their daughter had an accident and die for which they could be blamed. No car - Body could have been hidden or moved on foot No body - people are convicted all the time without a body being found.
Yep, the Ciprianos were weren't they. NO EVIDENCE at all in that case . NONE
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Albertini on July 20, 2013, 01:16:31 PM
I have already admitted I exaggerated in the distance between the Tapas and the front room (where the children were staying) at 5A. But it is not 77.83 m, it's 270m and there is a building with walls between the room and the patio with the pool and all the shrubs where the Tapas was located. Insisting that the children could be heard, even if they came to the back room that was at least 150 m away (through the reception and up the stairs), is throwing sand into everyone's eyes. But that is your appointed job, I guess.
Your Lady Kate didn't feel she could be heard from the balcony of the back room to the Tapas, what makes you think little children in distress could?!
Well, could you please provide some kind of support for that?
Google Earth doesn't seem to share your view.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 01:58:04 PM
Are you by chance one of the victims ? If so, as you're anonymous here, can you tell how those offenders got inside ? And can you also explain why the police wasn't called ? There was no forensic evidence of abuse in the 5A.
No I'm not Anne. The police were called. (You seem to be missing a lot of posts.)
I'm not suggesting abuse took place in 5a - the point being made was that there were no signs of a break-in in those other cases and so it's not unreasonable to assume a key was used to gain entrance. Therefore the idea that there was no possibility of a key being used to get into 5A is incorrect. IMO
Amaral also thought a key could have been used to get into 5A.
Why do you and others keep ignoring that fact?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2013, 02:51:59 PM
Motive - due to neglectful reason their daughter had an accident and die for which they could be blamed. No car - Body could have been hidden or moved on foot No body - people are convicted all the time without a body being found.
And the statistics show that parental / family / friends are by far the biggest perpatrators of such crimes.
But we already know that no evidence that Madeleine had had an accident was found. So that would remain the same with this simpler cover story.
I did say that in the simpler version the body could be hidden in the same unfindable place which they apparently took her too much earler. So no change there.
The statistics also show that stranger abduction does happen. Ask Ben Needham's mum.
The massive difference in the simple version of events is that it doesn't include shutters/windows, or Jane Tanner having to be coached into remembering what she apparently didn't witness including having to remember a description of an imaginary man carrying a child. . They wouldn't have to talk their friends into covering for them and then spend the rest of their lives worrying in case someone let something slip - or had an attack of conscience.
They could dispose of the body when no-one was around - instead of at 10.00 oclock at night when all kinds of people/traffic could be expected - like the Smiths for example.
Madeleine would have been taken in the night after they got home - so no need to even discuss what happened with checks etc during the meal. They could even say that Madeleine had told them she had nasty dream the night before about a man being in her room.
Why on earth would they embark on such a messy concoction of a story involving so many terrible risks, complicated lies and other people when none of that was remotely necessary. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 02:52:12 PM
As you must know that letter was an hoax immediately exposed by the competent authorities. Only the readers of the British trash journos keep believing that ridiculous attempt to denigrate the Algarve as the safe place that it is for families and children. So far the only increase in crime that we have here is from the British youngsters that haven't learned to hold their alcohol consumption under control.
Don't take me wrong, I don't wish more Brits here. I have many friends that I cherish and welcome but I do not wish that more Britons come to this place. I love to feel safe in my home and not having McCanns coming over with their circuses to wash their mistakes.
Which letter was a hoax? And could you provide some kind of link as to which one you're talking about?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 20, 2013, 02:56:26 PM
Perfectly. As well we know that no evidence that Madeleine was abducted was found. So 15 love.
Sorry I didn't realise this was point scoring exercise. I thought we were discussing why the McCanns (if they disposed of their daughter's dead body), would come up with such a massively complex, complicated, convoluted 'brimming with risks' cover story involving loads of other folk - and taking ages to organise and which incidentally commenced at the ridiculous time of 10 o'clock at night.... - when people of their intelligence and education could have quite easily come up with a cover story a million times more simple.
The whole idea is ludicrous - and apart from anything else, is one of the main reasons why I don't believe for a second that they found their daughter dead and decided to dispose of her body.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: DCI on July 20, 2013, 03:38:42 PM
No I'm not Anne. The police were called. (You seem to be missing a lot of posts.)
I'm not suggesting abuse took place in 5a - the point being made was that there were no signs of a break-in in those other cases and so it's not unreasonable to assume a key was used to gain entrance. Therefore the idea that there was no possibility of a key being used to get into 5A is incorrect. IMO
Amaral also thought a key could have been used to get into 5A.
Why do you and others keep ignoring that fact?
A very strong possibility a key was used to gain entrance, when you see how many had access to the keys, and where they were kept!
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2013, 04:21:32 PM
I've just noticed that in the by him orchestrated "reconstruction", Mr McCann enters the apartment through the door to check on his children. Why ?
Good spot!
Amazing how in their so called *reconstruction* they got so much wrong! the smithmans description, the way of carrying, jane being wrong, and now this, It wasnt a reconstruction! By any means, but they let a few things out in it, ie gerry never ever physically checked on the kids, that was in part four **, and kate intimates the same, in the very beginning of the docu, ***
anyway here is gerry performing what he said in his first statement!
8.20 on
**
From5 mins
***
So any talk of them*physically checking all the time* bit null
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 22, 2013, 12:23:26 AM
No evidence there for anything at all in either of those threads
Just speculation
As is the alledged abductor
No official authorities at any time has ever stated there was an abduction, ok?
In fact, they have said there is no evidence that an abduction occurred, ie the foreign office and the liecester police and of course, the PT PP
Most people think there was an abductor Red including, it seems, the portuguese AG.. and SY.
So many pointers, but I have gone thru them all before many times.
I listen to all polite views Red So I can take it that because of your entrenched view, your views remain unaltered in any way.
tbh I expected that in the case of a few posters on here; the ones who, for some reason, prefer Madeleine dead.
Hopefully others will have thought it thru and wonder why all the pushing for the window as the only way in and out, then the rubbishing of the feasibily of the window. I guess the [ censored word] want to prove Amarals theory for him?
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: Redblossom on July 22, 2013, 12:34:28 AM
Most people think there was an abductor Red including, it seems, the portuguese AG.. and SY.
So many pointers, but I have gone thru them all before many times.
I listen to all polite views Red So I can take it that because of your entrenched view, your views remain unaltered in any way.
tbh I expected that in the case of a few posters on here; the ones who, for some reason, prefer Madeleine dead.
Hopefully others will have thought it thru and wonder why all the pushing for the window as the only way in and out, then the rubbishing of the feasibily of the window. I guess the [ censored word] want to prove Amarals theory for him?
Leaving the paranoia aside, no, as I said before, no official authority has stated there was any abduction. FACT.
Title: Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
Post by: sadie on July 22, 2013, 11:25:20 AM
Leaving the paranoia aside, no, as I said before, no official authority has stated there was any abduction. FACT.
Apart from Amaral, who was departed from his job, no official authority has said the Mccanns dunit!
And there have been plenty of official authorities that have said that there are NO grounds for prosecution Also that The Mccanns are NOT suspects. FACT
Therefore an Abduction is thought the cause of Madeleines disappearance