UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: xtina on January 30, 2016, 01:21:50 PM
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G.A. should never been took off this case ....he was doing his job to get to the truth ....he gave the mccs leeway ...he should never have done that ....he was sacked because it ended up political ...not policing ...people interfered that shouldn't have done ....it seemed more about the mccs ...than maddie ...or the truth ...of what happenned to maddie
This book has a higher purpose. That of contributing to the discovery of the material truth and the achievement of justice in the investigation that is known as the "Maddie Case". These are fundamental values that I have committed myself to, by duty of conscience, conviction and discipline towards the institution that I was proud to be a part of. These same values were not extinguished with my retirement and they will always be present in my life. Under no circumstance whatsoever does the book call the work of my colleagues at the Judiciary Police into question, nor does it compromise the ongoing investigation. It is my deep understanding that revealing all of the facts in a work of this kind might jeopardize future actions that are decisive for the discovery of the truth. Nonetheless, the reader will find data that is previously unknown, interpretations of the facts – always under the light of law – and, of course, relevant questions. A criminal investigation is only committed to searching for the material truth. It must not worry about political correctness.»
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G.A. should never been took off this case ....he was doing his job to get to the truth ....he gave the mccs leeway ...he should never have done that ....he was sacked because it ended up political ...not policing ...people interfered that shouldn't have done ....it seemed more about the mccs ...than maddie ...or the truth ...of what happenned to maddie
This book has a higher purpose. That of contributing to the discovery of the material truth and the achievement of justice in the investigation that is known as the "Maddie Case". These are fundamental values that I have committed myself to, by duty of conscience, conviction and discipline towards the institution that I was proud to be a part of. These same values were not extinguished with my retirement and they will always be present in my life. Under no circumstance whatsoever does the book call the work of my colleagues at the Judiciary Police into question, nor does it compromise the ongoing investigation. It is my deep understanding that revealing all of the facts in a work of this kind might jeopardize future actions that are decisive for the discovery of the truth. Nonetheless, the reader will find data that is previously unknown, interpretations of the facts – always under the light of law – and, of course, relevant questions. A criminal investigation is only committed to searching for the material truth. It must not worry about political correctness.»
How has his book contributed to the higher purpose of discovering the material truth?
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G.A. should never been took off this case ....he was doing his job to get to the truth ....he gave the mccs leeway ...he should never have done that ....he was sacked because it ended up political ...not policing ...people interfered that shouldn't have done ....it seemed more about the mccs ...than maddie ...or the truth ...of what happenned to maddie
This book has a higher purpose. That of contributing to the discovery of the material truth and the achievement of justice in the investigation that is known as the "Maddie Case". These are fundamental values that I have committed myself to, by duty of conscience, conviction and discipline towards the institution that I was proud to be a part of. These same values were not extinguished with my retirement and they will always be present in my life. Under no circumstance whatsoever does the book call the work of my colleagues at the Judiciary Police into question, nor does it compromise the ongoing investigation. It is my deep understanding that revealing all of the facts in a work of this kind might jeopardize future actions that are decisive for the discovery of the truth. Nonetheless, the reader will find data that is previously unknown, interpretations of the facts – always under the light of law – and, of course, relevant questions. A criminal investigation is only committed to searching for the material truth. It must not worry about political correctness.»
You must admit, Amaral did get certain key and fundamental things wrong.
Harrison did not change the direction of the investigation.
There were not two forensic reports.
There were no dog alerts identified as to cadaver scent.
The STU100 does not detect cadaver scent.
Eddie hesitated long before (finally) alerting to spots of Gerry's blood in the Renault.
And so on ....
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How has his book contributed to the higher purpose of discovering the material truth?
I like his book. Amongst other things, it shows us how hard it is for a stranger to Luz to successfully dispose of a body, or to conceal a body, survive the searches, retrieve the body and then dispose of it.
The 'Amaral Challenge' is brilliant, given that a detective with years of experience, added to years of experience of the Algarve, and with complete access to all the case files, could not answer it.
It is a brilliant challenge. If you think the McCanns did it, all you have to do is show the McCanns beating the Amaral Challenge.
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I like his book. Amongst other things, it shows us how hard it is for a stranger to Luz to successfully dispose of a body, or to conceal a body, survive the searches, retrieve the body and then dispose of it.
The 'Amaral Challenge' is brilliant, given that a detective with years of experience, added to years of experience of the Algarve, and with complete access to all the case files, could not answer it.
It is a brilliant challenge. If you think the McCanns did it, all you have to do is show the McCanns beating the Amaral Challenge.
I have yet to find anyone who has presented a successful demonstration of how his "hypothesis" could have worked in practice.
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I like his book. Amongst other things, it shows us how hard it is for a stranger to Luz to successfully dispose of a body, or to conceal a body, survive the searches, retrieve the body and then dispose of it.
The 'Amaral Challenge' is brilliant, given that a detective with years of experience, added to years of experience of the Algarve, and with complete access to all the case files, could not answer it.
It is a brilliant challenge. If you think the McCanns did it, all you have to do is show the McCanns beating the Amaral Challenge.
Do you think a stranger can't get to the beach or the cliffs? When the disappearance happened those places were deserted on a cold dark night. It may not be as hard as you think.
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This is a new thread.
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Is it believed Sr Amaral was removed due to political intervention? if so where is the hard evidence?
Or was he removed as a result of a management decision by his superiors? Which to me seems more likely.
Were I his manager I would have removed him of my own accord probably before September.
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Do you think a stranger can't get to the beach or the cliffs? When the disappearance happened those places were deserted on a cold dark night. It may not be as hard as you think.
I believe the disposing of body in the sea was discussed and found to be impossible. It was low tide and the body would have surely been brought back to land.
Also the throwing of body from cliffs would have been impossible too, it was shown that no one would have been able to throw a body into the sea from the cliffs.
Also when would this have taken place exactly? Where would the body have been hidden until this could have been done?
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Is it believed Sr Amaral was removed due to political intervention? if so where is the hard evidence?
Or was he removed as a result of a management decision by his superiors? Which to me seems more likely.
Were I his manager I would have removed him of my own accord probably before September.
He says in his book he made a retort putting down the British Police, he says they wanted to take the route of abduction and just follow everything the McCann's wanted. I find that quite ridiculous, he was the person in charge of the case. It is more likely they saw that he was taking the wrong course of action and he wouldn't listen to them.
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I believe the disposing of body in the sea was discussed and found to be impossible. It was low tide and the body would have surely been brought back to land.
Also the throwing of body from cliffs would have been impossible too, it was shown that no one would have been able to throw a body into the sea from the cliffs.
Also when would this have taken place exactly? Where would the body have been hidden until this could have been done?
I don't think a body was thrown into the sea or a bin. If I wanted to hide something and I was a stranger I would head straight to the nearby dark deserted beach.
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Do you think a stranger can't get to the beach or the cliffs? When the disappearance happened those places were deserted on a cold dark night. It may not be as hard as you think.
I have produced a detailed break down of what was and was not open in Luz from around 8:30PM to 10:30PM. Luz was NOT deserted. The promenade was NOT deserted.
That is the whole point. People who think Luz was closed around the time of the incident are tackling the wrong problem.
What has a stranger getting to the cliffs got to do with anything? Said stranger has to get past numerous open establishments to get to the cliffs. That's what a man walking through Luz had to achieve, not finding where the beach or the cliffs were.
The obstacle was people of the classes 'staff' and 'customers'. I cannot track domestic people that night, so I can't know how much traffic there was. However, the files are replete with instances of people moving about BEFORE they learned of the disappearance of Madeleine.
For example, the proprietor and owner of the Dolphin went to the Mirage for a game of pool that night, turning up to find it was basically empty, with everyone out searching. Clearly, this does not impact on events leading up to the disappearance. But it does show that people were travelling across Luz, not remaining behind closed doors.
Amaral claimed in his book that Luz was basically closed on 3 May 2007. That is nonsense, total nonsense.
The idea of a man walking through a deserted, closed town is fantasy. Whichever way Smithman went, he was about to enter Luz hotspots.
In order to evade them, he first had to know about them, then he had to have a good quality knowledge of Luz to take a path avoiding them. Stranger does not equate with knowledge of Luz, it equates with ignorance of Luz.
Amaral was ignorant of the workings of Luz. That was not a fault, it was a consequence of being a stranger to Luz.
Amaral was out of his depth in this case, IMO. I cannot attach blame to him for this. If Rebelo had been in charge from day 1, he would have been out of his depth, IMO. If DCI Andy Redwood had been in charge from day 1, he would have been out of his depth, IMO. If DCI Nicola Wall had been in charge from day 1, she would have been out of her depth, IMO.
Whatever captain was in charge, the storm surrounding the disappearance would have sunk the ship, IMO.
So, should Amaral have been moved? Probably yes. It was time to get fresh eyes looking at things, and get someone in who was not in the media firing line.
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I like his book. Amongst other things, it shows us how hard it is for a stranger to Luz to successfully dispose of a body, or to conceal a body, survive the searches, retrieve the body and then dispose of it.
The 'Amaral Challenge' is brilliant, given that a detective with years of experience, added to years of experience of the Algarve, and with complete access to all the case files, could not answer it.
It is a brilliant challenge. If you think the McCanns did it, all you have to do is show the McCanns beating the Amaral Challenge.
Credit where it's due.
That is a refreshing and novel 'alternative' take on the intention and purpose of the book
8((()*/
ETA: firmly tongue-in-cheek and with a twinkle in the eye, I think ....
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I don't think a body was thrown into the sea or a bin. If I wanted to hide something and I was a stranger I would head straight to the nearby dark deserted beach.
What then? dig a hole in the sand?
I thought the beach wasn't deserted, I thought there were people there searching all through the night?
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He says in his book he made a retort putting down the British Police, he says they wanted to take the route of abduction and just follow everything the McCann's wanted. I find that quite ridiculous, he was the person in charge of the case. It is more likely they saw that he was taking the wrong course of action and he wouldn't listen to them.
I wouldn't take too much notice of what is in his book in the same way I wouldn't take too much notice of what is in Kate McCann's book. They are both pretty much "The Gospel According to St Me".
I wouldn't even have given him an OBE because I thought he was on the wrong trail. The reason is far simpler than that. Were I his boss looking for a conviction in the long run I wouldn't want my senior officer on the case to be the subject of an investigation into falsifying documents.
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I have produced a detailed break down of what was and was not open in Luz from around 8:30PM to 10:30PM. Luz was NOT deserted. The promenade was NOT deserted.
That is the whole point. People who think Luz was closed around the time of the incident are tackling the wrong problem.
What has a stranger getting to the cliffs got to do with anything? Said stranger has to get past numerous open establishments to get to the cliffs. That's what a man walking through Luz had to achieve, not finding where the beach or the cliffs were.
The obstacle was people of the classes 'staff' and 'customers'. I cannot track domestic people that night, so I can't know how much traffic there was. However, the files are replete with instances of people moving about BEFORE they learned of the disappearance of Madeleine.
For example, the proprietor and owner of the Dolphin went to the Mirage for a game of pool that night, turning up to find it was basically empty, with everyone out searching. Clearly, this does not impact on events leading up to the disappearance. But it does show that people were travelling across Luz, not remaining behind closed doors.
Amaral claimed in his book that Luz was basically closed on 3 May 2007. That is nonsense, total nonsense.
The idea of a man walking through a deserted, closed town is fantasy. Whichever way Smithman went, he was about to enter Luz hotspots.
In order to evade them, he first had to know about them, then he had to have a good quality knowledge of Luz to take a path avoiding them. Stranger does not equate with knowledge of Luz, it equates with ignorance of Luz.
Amaral was ignorant of the workings of Luz. That was not a fault, it was a consequence of being a stranger to Luz.
Amaral was out of his depth in this case, IMO. I cannot attach blame to him for this. If Rebelo had been in charge from day 1, he would have been out of his depth, IMO. If DCI Andy Redwood had been in charge from day 1, he would have been out of his depth, IMO. If DCI Nicola Wall had been in charge from day 1, she would have been out of her depth, IMO.
Whatever captain was in charge, the storm surrounding the disappearance would have sunk the ship, IMO.
So, should Amaral have been moved? Probably yes. It was time to get fresh eyes looking at things, and get someone in who was not in the media firing line.
You have produced nothing of value. It is possible to hide bodies and later move them. It has happened many times. You can get to the cliffs. He is not walking through the streets to get there. He is on the deserted beach. You're not going to find anything taking a stroll along the beach. Not many torches and Gary Lig said it would be impossible to search that area properly in those conditions. We know certain people went out hours later and were all alone apparently.
Gary Lig at the beach
(http://s17.postimg.org/g7qmrdmpr/garyligatbeach.jpg)
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Is it believed Sr Amaral was removed due to political intervention? if so where is the hard evidence?
Or was he removed as a result of a management decision by his superiors? Which to me seems more likely.
Were I his manager I would have removed him of my own accord probably before September.
He was eventually removed by the national director.
He was an arguido on 4 May in another case and charged sometime in June. Despite this pending case, he had been made PJ coordinator for Portimão in 2006 (to double-check on the date).
IMO, Encarnação should have found a diplomatic way of whisking him off to investigate a "very important case" on something totally unrelated and asked for a temporary coordinator from Lisbon.
That didn't happen. Encarnação became seriously ill and, understandably, had other concerns.
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You have produced nothing of value. It is possible to hide bodies and later move them. It has happened many times. You can get to the cliffs. He is not walking through the streets to get there. He is on the deserted beach. You're not going to find anything taking a stroll along the beach. Not many torches and Gary Lig said it would be impossible to search that area properly in those conditions. We know certain people went out hours later and were all alone apparently.
Gary Lig at the beach
(http://s17.postimg.org/g7qmrdmpr/garyligatbeach.jpg)
I have no intention of discussing Gary Lig's view of the case further, given he has clearly demonstrated his total ignorance of critical facts.
How on Earth can you say you can get to the beach without walking through the streets? What? You cannot be serious.
Does Smithman now magically have a car? Does he levitate to the beach?
Smithman had until perhaps 10:20PM or so to get to the beach before numerous people are crystal clear that the beach was a place they searched.
There were NUMEROUS places open on the beach front until later than that. A Concha, Paraíso, Habana, Lazuli, Carlos Bar, O Poço, the nightclub.
And if you are factoring in the later time that the McCanns reputedly searched, try checking the Habana webcam. The set-up crew normally are active before dawn. The beach cleaners are out first thing. People let their dogs roam free on the beach while they socialise with other dog walkers. It happens to be an extremely attractive and tranquil place to be at dawn.
I know because I've done it. How about you? How about Gary Lig? Just another guy who does not know how Luz runs, on top of seemingly being ignorant of the facts of the case.
Is it possible we could stick a bit closer to the topic rather than throwing in unrelated quotes from a Dispatched programme that did not have access to the facts? I feel sure the mods would appreciate this.
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He was eventually removed by the national director.
He was an arguido on 4 May in another case and charged sometime in June. Despite this pending case, he had been made PJ coordinator for Portimão in 2006 (to double-check on the date).
IMO, Encarnação should have found a diplomatic way of whisking him off to investigate a "very important case" on something totally unrelated and asked for a temporary coordinator from Lisbon.
That didn't happen. Encarnação became seriously ill and, understandably, had other concerns.
So do you think it was political intervention rather than a management decision?
Regardless of who did what with which and to whom and who was called what I find a management decision is more credible than political intervention for the reasons I have stated. Albeit given I had the resources to cover the case and not leave my organisation exposed I would have whanged him a lot earlier by giving him a sideways promotion.
Having the senior officer of a missing child case with international interest staring down the barrel of a falsifying case documents charge is not very smart, someone will dig it up sooner or later. Best get shut of him.
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So do you think it was political intervention rather than a management decision?
Regardless of who did what with which and to whom and who was called what I find a management decision is more credible than political intervention for the reasons I have stated. Albeit given I had the resources to cover the case and not leave my organisation exposed I would have whanged him a lot earlier by giving him a sideways promotion.
Having the senior officer of a missing child case with international interest staring down the barrel of a falsifying case documents charge is not very smart, someone will dig it up sooner or later. Best get shut of him.
What is the distinction?
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What is the distinction?
Do you mean the distinction between management decision and political intervention?
A management decision is an action taken within an organisation in the interests of satisfying that organisations objective; in this case determining a crime, obtaining a successful prosecution and not leaving the organisation exposed.
Political intervention is someone in government interfering in the running of an organisation by dictating how a job is staffed and funded.
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Do you mean the distinction between management decision and political intervention?
A management decision is an action taken within an organisation in the interests of satisfying that organisations objective; in this case determining a crime, obtaining a successful prosecution and not leaving the organisation exposed.
Political intervention is someone in government interfering in the running of an organisation by dictating how a job is staffed and funded.
According to that, what political intervention was there in the police investigation into the McCann case as opposed to a mangerial one?
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My impression is that the lack of mangement, IMO, became a political (diplomatic) issue in terms of international relations... which goes far beyond the McCann case itself.
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I have no intention of discussing Gary Lig's view of the case further, given he has clearly demonstrated his total ignorance of critical facts.
How on Earth can you say you can get to the beach without walking through the streets? What? You cannot be serious.
Does Smithman now magically have a car? Does he levitate to the beach?
Smithman had until perhaps 10:20PM or so to get to the beach before numerous people are crystal clear that the beach was a place they searched.
There were NUMEROUS places open on the beach front until later than that. A Concha, Paraíso, Habana, Lazuli, Carlos Bar, O Poço, the nightclub.
And if you are factoring in the later time that the McCanns reputedly searched, try checking the Habana webcam. The set-up crew normally are active before dawn. The beach cleaners are out first thing. People let their dogs roam free on the beach while they socialise with other dog walkers. It happens to be an extremely attractive and tranquil place to be at dawn.
I know because I've done it. How about you? How about Gary Lig? Just another guy who does not know how Luz runs, on top of seemingly being ignorant of the facts of the case.
Is it possible we could stick a bit closer to the topic rather than throwing in unrelated quotes from a Dispatched programme that did not have access to the facts? I feel sure the mods would appreciate this.
Smithman could be on that beach by 10:05 (he was nearly there when seen). It's pure arrogance to suggest a search specialist knows nothing. I meant once on the beach you can walk along it in the dark to get to the cliffs. You don't need to be walking through lit streets to access it (a foolish thought!).
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If Amaral had never been taken off the case, where do forum members believe we would be at now? McCanns languishing in prison presumably! @)(++(*
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Smithman could be on that beach by 10:05 (he was nearly there when seen). It's pure arrogance to suggest a search specialist knows nothing. I meant once on the beach you can walk along it in the dark to get to the cliffs. You don't need to be walking through lit streets to access it (a foolish thought!).
At no time have I asserted that this 'search specialist' knows nothing, so please drop the assertion and the label of arrogance. I cannot assert his professional capacity as I know nothing about it, apart from what has appeared in a single TV programme.
I do not research every ex-whatever who manages to get into the media. I do some checks on whether what the talking head passes basic tests.
Barclay was in the programme. Whether it was this programme or another, he is the source of the "undisturbed lichen" myth. I do not need his CV to tell that he was wrong about this.
Likewise, I do not need the CV of DCI Andy Redwood to know that if he had understood Luz, the June 2014 dig on the mound would never have started.
I asserted the 'search expert' did not know of the PJ checks on bins, and clearly he didn't. I asserted he did not have a good grasp of Luz, and I stand by that assertion.
Now you are stating that you can access the beach without first getting to the beach. Getting to the beach is impossible without going through the streets of Luz. And Luz was open for business. Your expert seems not to be aware of this.
You are, given that this has been put to you on many an occasion. So what relevance is an expert who either did not know this, or who knew it and came up with rubbish?
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If Amaral had never been taken off the case, where do forum members believe we would be at now? McCanns languishing in prison presumably! @)(++(*
Without the international media spotlights, and in view of the lack of evidence in the Cipriano case, that would seem to be a reasonable assumption. IMO.
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According to that, what political intervention was there in the police investigation into the McCann case as opposed to a mangerial one?
We seem to going round in circles here.
I didn't say there was political intervention. Some including Sr Amaral suggest there was.
My postulation is that it is much more likely that there was an internal decision within the PJ [ie a management decision] to whang him as he would be a liability if prosecutions came about. One can imagine the judge /judges asking how many case documents he had falsified should the case ever have finished up in court.
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We seem to going round in circles here.
I didn't say there was political intervention. Some including Sr Amaral suggest there was.
My postulation is that it is much more likely that there was an internal decision within the PJ [ie a management decision] to whang him as he would be a liability if prosecutions came about. One can imagine the judge /judges asking how many case documents he had falsified should the case ever have finished up in court.
I think that we mostly agree on that, but IMO, there is more.
In the Cipriano case, he testified that the fact that Leonor wore a black top (in one TV interview, not in others) signified mourning and was therefore a major hint as to guilt - and no one challenged the fact that she was also wearing bright-coloured slacks.
The level of the prosecution in that case would have made PT an international laughing stock.
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We seem to going round in circles here.
I didn't say there was political intervention. Some including Sr Amaral suggest there was.
My postulation is that it is much more likely that there was an internal decision within the PJ [ie a management decision] to whang him as he would be a liability if prosecutions came about. One can imagine the judge /judges asking how many case documents he had falsified should the case ever have finished up in court.
I certainly agree that he was a liability....
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At no time have I asserted that this 'search specialist' knows nothing, so please drop the assertion and the label of arrogance. I cannot assert his professional capacity as I know nothing about it, apart from what has appeared in a single TV programme.
I do not research every ex-whatever who manages to get into the media. I do some checks on whether what the talking head passes basic tests.
Barclay was in the programme. Whether it was this programme or another, he is the source of the "undisturbed lichen" myth. I do not need his CV to tell that he was wrong about this.
Likewise, I do not need the CV of DCI Andy Redwood to know that if he had understood Luz, the June 2014 dig on the mound would never have started.
I asserted the 'search expert' did not know of the PJ checks on bins, and clearly he didn't. I asserted he did not have a good grasp of Luz, and I stand by that assertion.
Now you are stating that you can access the beach without first getting to the beach. Getting to the beach is impossible without going through the streets of Luz. And Luz was open for business. Your expert seems not to be aware of this.
You are, given that this has been put to you on many an occasion. So what relevance is an expert who either did not know this, or who knew it and came up with rubbish?
It is known Smithman was seen not far from the beach and is the prime suspect. If it was so busy at that time then where are the other eye witnesses? And I've heard the excuses that he was an innocent father taking his deep sleeping Madeleine lookalike child home. SY would have checked all parents who took children from the night creche and none match. Goncalo Amaral had him as the prime suspect who took her away in 2007 and so do SY so the beach has to be an area of importance when he was heading in that direction. All other possibilities have been investigated and have led nowhere (probably explains the scaling back!) so they are left with that same man - efits produced in 2008 and remained unreleased for 5 years.
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I think that we mostly agree on that, but IMO, there is more.
In the Cipriano case, he testified that the fact that Leonor wore a black top (in one TV interview, not in others) signified mourning and was therefore a major hint as to guilt - and no one challenged the fact that she was also wearing bright-coloured slacks.
The level of the prosecution in that case would have made PT an international laughing stock.
I doubt that sort of thing ever enters the heads of police forces.
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I think that we mostly agree on that, but IMO, there is more.
In the Cipriano case, he testified that the fact that Leonor wore a black top (in one TV interview, not in others) signified mourning and was therefore a major hint as to guilt - and no one challenged the fact that she was also wearing bright-coloured slacks.
The level of the prosecution in that case would have made PT an international laughing stock.
You mean like SY in the Barry George case, who completely ignored key witnesses ?
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It is known Smithman was seen not far from the beach and is the prime suspect. If it was so busy at that time then where are the other eye witnesses? And I've heard the excuses that he was an innocent father taking his deep sleeping Madeleine lookalike child home. SY would have checked all parents who took children from the night creche and none match. Goncalo Amaral had him as the prime suspect who took her away in 2007 and so do SY so the beach has to be an area of importance when he was heading in that direction. All other possibilities have been investigated and have led nowhere (probably explains the scaling back!) so they are left with that same man - efits produced in 2008 and remained unreleased for 5 years.
Actually, very little of this is known.
I haven't checked, but I would guess that a route from 5A to the beach is of similar distance as that of Smithman to the beach. This tells us only that Luz is not huge, which is correct.
Prime suspect? Can't remember anyone in OG using the term. Can you? I remember as something along the lines of another person to be eliminated from the enquiry, or similar, but not 'prime suspect'.
Other eye witnesses to what? 9 people saw Smithman. How many more do you want? You would probably get more if he headed to the beach, due to the cluster of active commercial enterprises and the car park situation. That you have not suggests that he did not head to the beach, rather than Luz was inactive, which it definitely wasn't on that route.
The only relevance of the night crèche to Smithman is that 8 families with 11 children have been identified by OG. In the absence of cars (not usual on a week long OC holiday), we should have children walking, being buggied or been carried. In plain and simple English, a child being carried home from the night crèche is unremarkable.
Hopefully, you do realise that Smithman was outside the 'perimeter' of the OC? That he neither appears to be coming from the crèche, nor does he appear to be going to an OC property (unless he is seriously lost). Logically, a check on the night crèche should have checked whether any parent fits the Smithman sighting, purely for elimination.
There is no evidence in the PJ Files WHATSOEVER that makes it likely that he was heading to the beach. Aoife's testimony goes exactly the other way and makes it highly UNLIKELY that he was heading to the beach, and you are well aware of that.
Look at the Eamon Holmes interview of Paul Luckman, which included a discussion at the Smithman sighting point in 2011 with Amaral. According to Luckman, Amaral indicated that he thought the man had NOT headed in the direction of the beach. Rather Amaral indicated that the man had gone down the way the Smiths had just come up.
There is no point in using Amaral as a reference in this. Aoife´s statement is crystal clear, after seeing a man fleetingly, she does not know whether he then headed to the beach, or simply went down the street she had just come up. While her evidence is inconsistent with a man heading to the beach, it is consistent with a man heading down towards the Dolphin This remains an unturned stone, something that should be looked at further.
If the man headed down the street, rather than to the beach, he is going into an area of Luz that was still open, but quieter. That happens to be consistent with no further sightings, but hardly constitutes proof for many a reason
We don't know if all other avenues have been exhausted. We certainly DO know that OG is pursuing focussed lines of enquiry, not just a single line of enquiry. Therefore we do NOT know that Smithman is the only option.
Of the 4 men made arguidos in July 2014, only 1 appears to have been informed he is no longer of interest. The status of the other 3 is unknown. None of these was connected to the case by Smithman.
Can we have a pinch of accuracy, and somewhat less pushing of information that may well suit your theorem but is inaccurate? There are people reading the forum who are not well informed on the case and who can be led astray by assertions of facts that are not valid.
Luz was not closed. Smithman is not known to have been heading to the beach. The esplanade had open, active establishments, and you can check the lighting for yourself. The Files contain numerous references to searches of the beach. From memory, Harrison ruled out the use of the beach, but thought the rocks at the East end were worth a look. Which suggests that his understanding of the activity in Luz that night was less than perfect.
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Smithman is prime suspect. Oh I forgot to add that Kelly's bar was heaving that night being so busy and that as receipts prove NOT.
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Smithman is prime suspect. Oh I forgot to add that Kelly's bar was heaving that night being so busy and that as receipts prove NOT.
If you wish to discuss your theorem, may I kindly suggest you do so in the thread in the area reserved for it, rather than hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with it.
Kelly's was quiet and there is a reason why it was so quiet. That reason ties in with first the Smiths visiting Kelly's, and is the most probable explanation for the Smith sighting.
Not all of the information is in the PJ Files. You have to rootle about elsewhere, but all of the information you need to kick this off is contained in the PJ Files, as long as you have a knowledge of how Luz works, which you appear to be lacking.
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Regarding the title of the thread, at the time Amaral was taken off he was still hunting for an elusive fridge...
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Amaral was after the right man seen by the Smiths so it's suspicious why he was taken off and the next guy discarded that lead.
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Amaral was after the right man seen by the Smiths so it's suspicious why he was taken off and the next guy discarded that lead.
I'm not aware that Rebelo discarded Smithman. Where do you get that from?
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I'm not aware that Rebelo discarded Smithman. Where do you get that from?
Did Rebelo meet with the Smiths and follow up that lead? I know someone wrote a begging letter to him after enemy number one left the case.
"I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going."
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Did Rebelo meet with the Smiths and follow up that lead? I know someone wrote a begging letter to him after enemy number one left the case.
"I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going."
You missed the last part of the sentence ... I've highlighted it for you.
I would imagine that it would have taken little to allow the parents of a missing child some information as far as was possible ~ it is disappointing that you cast innuendo while ignoring the desperation for information the parents of a missing child must suffer.
4th December 2007
Dear Mr Rebelo,
I hope you do not mind me writing to you and that you will read my letter. I am Madeleine McCann's mother.
I am not sure if you are a parent or not, but for my husband and myself, and the whole of our family, the last seven months has been the most difficult, sad and unbearable time that any parent could possibly imagine. Madeleine is the most precious thing in our life.
As her mother, the pain and anxiety I feel for her is indescribable and the feeling of helplessness overwhelming. The 'accusations' and media smearing, although upsetting, are very much secondary.
I am appealing to you as a fellow human being to work with us (if possible include us) and to remember that we are Madeleine's parents and have needs.
With regard to this latter point, I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going - what work is being done to help find our daughter etc.
I'm sure you will agree that this request is not unreasonable and is in fact humane.
I am fairly familiar now with the workings of 'judicial secrecy' but even if we could have a little bit of information in the broadest of terms it would help.
Lack of communication and a void of information, particularly as the parent of a missing child, is torture. We will continue to work with the PJ (and are keen to do so as soon as possible!) as we have done since that moment when I discovered that Madeleine had been taken.
This shouldn't be about 'finger-pointing blame', nor should it be about differences in culture. It should be about a beautiful, innocent little girl who is still missing. She is the victim in all of this.
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her.
I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask.
Yours sincerely,
Kate McCann.
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You missed the last part of the sentence ... I've highlighted it for you.
I would imagine that it would have taken little to allow the parents of a missing child some information as far as was possible ~ it is disappointing that you cast innuendo while ignoring the desperation for information the parents of a missing child must suffer.
4th December 2007
Dear Mr Rebelo,
I hope you do not mind me writing to you and that you will read my letter. I am Madeleine McCann's mother.
I am not sure if you are a parent or not, but for my husband and myself, and the whole of our family, the last seven months has been the most difficult, sad and unbearable time that any parent could possibly imagine. Madeleine is the most precious thing in our life.
As her mother, the pain and anxiety I feel for her is indescribable and the feeling of helplessness overwhelming. The 'accusations' and media smearing, although upsetting, are very much secondary.
I am appealing to you as a fellow human being to work with us (if possible include us) and to remember that we are Madeleine's parents and have needs.
With regard to this latter point, I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going - what work is being done to help find our daughter etc.
I'm sure you will agree that this request is not unreasonable and is in fact humane.
I am fairly familiar now with the workings of 'judicial secrecy' but even if we could have a little bit of information in the broadest of terms it would help.
Lack of communication and a void of information, particularly as the parent of a missing child, is torture. We will continue to work with the PJ (and are keen to do so as soon as possible!) as we have done since that moment when I discovered that Madeleine had been taken.
This shouldn't be about 'finger-pointing blame', nor should it be about differences in culture. It should be about a beautiful, innocent little girl who is still missing. She is the victim in all of this.
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her.
I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask.
Yours sincerely,
Kate McCann.
.......'Madeleine is the most precious thing in our life.'
Really ??
So that's why she and her husband went out drinking and eating, and left her and her siblings by themselves.
If you are going to copy and paste mccann propaganda, expect the truth to be typed as a response.
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You missed the last part of the sentence ... I've highlighted it for you.
I would imagine that it would have taken little to allow the parents of a missing child some information as far as was possible ~ it is disappointing that you cast innuendo while ignoring the desperation for information the parents of a missing child must suffer.
4th December 2007
Dear Mr Rebelo,
I hope you do not mind me writing to you and that you will read my letter. I am Madeleine McCann's mother.
I am not sure if you are a parent or not, but for my husband and myself, and the whole of our family, the last seven months has been the most difficult, sad and unbearable time that any parent could possibly imagine. Madeleine is the most precious thing in our life.
As her mother, the pain and anxiety I feel for her is indescribable and the feeling of helplessness overwhelming. The 'accusations' and media smearing, although upsetting, are very much secondary.
I am appealing to you as a fellow human being to work with us (if possible include us) and to remember that we are Madeleine's parents and have needs.
With regard to this latter point, I would be grateful if you were able to keep us informed to some degree as to how the investigation is going - what work is being done to help find our daughter etc.
I'm sure you will agree that this request is not unreasonable and is in fact humane.
I am fairly familiar now with the workings of 'judicial secrecy' but even if we could have a little bit of information in the broadest of terms it would help.
Lack of communication and a void of information, particularly as the parent of a missing child, is torture. We will continue to work with the PJ (and are keen to do so as soon as possible!) as we have done since that moment when I discovered that Madeleine had been taken.
This shouldn't be about 'finger-pointing blame', nor should it be about differences in culture. It should be about a beautiful, innocent little girl who is still missing. She is the victim in all of this.
It would be good for Madeleine if we could all work together to help find her and the person(s) who took her.
I would be very grateful if you could give some thought and consideration to my letter and look forward to your reply. I can only ask.
Yours sincerely,
Kate McCann.
They were suspects in her disappearance and she wants to be updated on the investigation. Really? She must have been in fantasy luzland for too long @)(++(*
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They were suspects in her disappearance and she wants to be updated on the investigation. Really? She must have been in fantasy luzland for too long @)(++(*
She was the mother of a missing child - shame on her for wanting to know what was happening in the investigation into her disappearance. I know it's difficult for you but just for once consider that Kate McCann genuinely has no idea where her child is, can you do that or am I asking the impossible?
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She was the mother of a missing child - shame on her for wanting to know what was happening in the investigation into her disappearance. I know it's difficult for you but just for once consider that Kate McCann genuinely has no idea where her child is, can you do that or am I asking the impossible?
...and what if she does know? Can the police take the chance on keeping a possible suspect informed (forewarned)?
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She was the mother of a missing child - shame on her for wanting to know what was happening in the investigation into her disappearance. I know it's difficult for you but just for once consider that Kate McCann genuinely has no idea where her child is, can you do that or am I asking the impossible?
She didn't help the investigation did she? Refusing to answer questions hinders it.
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Amaral should never have been on the case
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Some people seem to blame Amaral for not finding Madeleine, yet seem unwilling or unable to blame her parents for leaving her and her siblings in danger.
Mind you they did lock the apartment during the daytime.
Brilliant logic there.
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Some people seem to blame Amaral for not finding Madeleine, yet seem unwilling or unable to blame her parents for leaving her and her siblings in danger.
Mind you they did lock the apartment during the daytime.
Brilliant logic there.
and some want to blame the parents and not blame amaral for his mistakes
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and some want to blame the parents and not blame amaral for his mistakes
Sr Amaral did not leave the McCann's children without adult supervision in a locked/unlocked* apartment.
Delete as appropriate depending upon which statement you prefer to believe.
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Sr Amaral did not leave the McCann's children without adult supervision in a locked/unlocked* apartment.
Delete as appropriate depending upon which statement you prefer to believe.
do you have cite for that
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Sr Amaral did not leave the McCann's children without adult supervision in a locked/unlocked* apartment.
Delete as appropriate depending upon which statement you prefer to believe.
So far as I'm aware, no one blames Amaral for that ....
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So far as I'm aware, no one blames Amaral for that ....
The trouble is around here Sr Amaral is a bit like Oliver Cromwell in Kilkenny. Sooner or later he is blamed for everything.
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The trouble is around here Sr Amaral is a bit like Oliver Cromwell in Kilkenny. Sooner or later he is blamed for everything.
it works both ways,,,the mccanns are blamed for everything...shannon mathews parents would never have behaved as they did if it had not been for the McCans
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Sr Amaral did not leave the McCann's children without adult supervision in a locked/unlocked* apartment.
Delete as appropriate depending upon which statement you prefer to believe.
What exactly does that statement have to do with Goncalo Amaral and the investigation he was in charge of.
It is very, very easy for some to overlook and forget that missing little girl whose chances of being recovered started to fade the minute he took up the reins of the investigation when he opened his eyes and got out of his bed on the 4th May 2007.
Deciding before he even set foot in Praia da Luz that "something isn't right in the account of the events" (truthofthelie chapter 3) rather set the tone of the investigation.
Getting a background report on Madeleine's parents as he states he did would have been procedure, had it not been mired in unwarranted suspicion and carried out by one with a closed mind. Unfortunately it was a path from which there is no evidence he deviated throughout his tenure.
His decision, without a shred of evidence, that Madeleine was dead with the involvement of her parents in my opinion took precedence over any other lines of investigation which may have led to finding out what happened to Madeleine and perhaps even led to her recovery.
Quote: Ricardo Paiva
He admitted that Mr Amaral's conviction about the McCanns' involvement had stopped police from investigating other theories.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242716/Madeleine-McCann-dead-abduction-faked-say-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz3z3Jq69Pc
People living in block 5 who could have been material witnesses were apparently not interviewed ~ for example, Mrs Fenn who was directly above the apartment Madeleine disappeared from and one above that, Mr & Mrs Moyes, leaving one to wonder who might have been living in apartment 5J, the path to which was followed by the GNR dogs.
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it works both ways,,,the mccanns are blamed for everything...shannon mathews parents would never have behaved as they did if it had not been for the McCans
Would you care to define everything as I am sure you do not mean literally everything.
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and some want to blame the parents and not blame amaral for his mistakes
Whatever happened to that poor child happened before the PJ were called.
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Sr Amaral did not leave the McCann's children without adult supervision in a locked/unlocked* apartment.
Delete as appropriate depending upon which statement you prefer to believe.
No, but we hear that he drove his child around when he was drunk
And when he took her to work, when he was out and about, did he ever leave her in a locked/unlocked car as he went about Police business ??
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Could we get back On Topic, please.
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Whatever happened to that poor child happened before the PJ were called.
Whatever happened to those poor parents was made (almost) unbearably worse after they were (unjustly) constituted arguido/a ....
And to get back on-topic, Amaral should never have been appointed to the case; neither his deputy, convicted (in separate proceedings) of the barbaric torture of bastinado, Almeida.
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Whatever happened to those poor parents was made (almost) unbearably worse after they were (unjustly) constituted arguido/a ....
And to get back on-topic, Amaral should never have been appointed to the case; neither his deputy, convicted (in separate proceedings) of the barbaric torture of bastinado, Almeida.
The 'poor parents' were the ones who were responsible for whatever happened to the child. Had they acted differently nothing would have happened to their daughter. She was entirely innocent and not able to control her situation. They were adults and could have controlled the situation had they behaved responsibly. I would suggest that their suffering was as nothing compared to whatever their daughter experienced. If you think that appointing a different SIO would have meant they would not have become suspects you are mistaken imo.
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The 'poor parents' were the ones who were responsible for whatever happened to the child. Had they acted differently nothing would have happened to their daughter. She was entirely innocent and not able to control her situation. They were adults and could have controlled the situation had they behaved responsibly. I would suggest that their suffering was as nothing compared to whatever their daughter experienced. If you think that appointing a different SIO would have meant they would not have become suspects you are mistaken imo.
8@??)( they are a 100% responsible for whatever did befalll maddie
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The 'poor parents' were the ones who were responsible for whatever happened to the child. Had they acted differently nothing would have happened to their daughter. She was entirely innocent and not able to control her situation. They were adults and could have controlled the situation had they behaved responsibly. I would suggest that their suffering was as nothing compared to whatever their daughter experienced. If you think that appointing a different SIO would have meant they would not have become suspects you are mistaken imo.
Are you suggesting Kate and Gerry willed someone to abduct their daughter?
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Are you suggesting Kate and Gerry willed someone to abduct their daughter?
Ah repetition of the mantra.
leaving children by themselves, leaves them prone to a variety of dangers, including accidents within the apartment.
KEY POINT, the children were not being watched or supervised, apart from infrequent and mostly unverified checks.
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Ah repetition of the mantra.
leaving children by themselves, leaves them prone to a variety of dangers, including accidents within the apartment.
KEY POINT, the children were not being watched or supervised, apart from infrequent and mostly unverified checks.
instead of blaming the mcanns mcann supporters blame innocent dogs or GA
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Are you suggesting Kate and Gerry willed someone to abduct their daughter?
Is that a serious question? It's rather a foolish one if so. You are putting the chicken before the egg. You criticise the investigators for not finding a child. You ignore the circumstances which made an investigation necessary.
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Is that a serious question? It's rather a foolish one if so. You are putting the chicken before the egg. You criticise the investigators for not finding a child. You ignore the circumstances which made an investigation necessary.
if the mcanns had had a glass of wine in the mcanns apartment with their friends like most parents we wouldnt be here now
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TOPIC, PLEASE.
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TOPIC, PLEASE.
Amaral should not have been taken off the case.
He should never have been appointed to coordinate in the first place.
He was, himself, an arguido from the ineptly run Cipriano case and was therefore unfit to continue his duties and should have been suspended (on full pay) pending the outcome of that investigation.
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Amaral should not have been taken off the case.
He should never have been appointed to coordinate in the first place.
He was, himself, an arguido from the ineptly run Cipriano case and was therefore unfit to continue his duties and should have been suspended (on full pay) pending the outcome of that investigation.
I heartily agree, although I have reservations about full pay.
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Amaral should not have been taken off the case.
He should never have been appointed to coordinate in the first place.
He was, himself, an arguido from the ineptly run Cipriano case and was therefore unfit to continue his duties and should have been suspended (on full pay) pending the outcome of that investigation.
You do know that Amaral was a very successful cop in Portugal with arrests and record drug busts? He was respected by his colleagues. You don't see any bad-mouthing him after he left the force. You do that 8(0(*
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You do know that Amaral was a very successful cop in Portugal with arrests and record drug busts? He was respected by his colleagues. You don't see any bad-mouthing him after he left the force. You do that 8(0(*
Funny how no one turned up for his retirement party.
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Funny how no one turned up for his [Amaral's] retirement party.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/20-dec8/MCCANNFILES-05-12-08.htm
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You do know that Amaral was a very successful cop in Portugal with arrests and record drug busts? He was respected by his colleagues. You don't see any bad-mouthing him after he left the force. You do that 8(0(*
I gather he had something of a reputation for policing drug-smuggling. No idea if he nailed the right people, though ....
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I gather he had something of a reputation for policing drug-smuggling. No idea if he nailed the right people, though ....
How would you know anything....
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Ah repetition of the mantra.
leaving children by themselves, leaves them prone to a variety of dangers, including accidents within the apartment.
KEY POINT, the children were not being watched or supervised, apart from infrequent and mostly unverified checks.
I believe you have reached the wrong conclusion with with regard to your "KEY POINT".
In my opinion the first key point is that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on 3rd May 2007.
The second key point is that Goncalo Amaral was entirely the wrong person to have been appointed to lead the case of a missing child.
At the time there were too many questions hanging over the head of the man ... not least the one which was the reason for his arguido status.
Leaving the book aside for the moment. I think that nothing the man has subsequently said or done in the intervening period illustrates his inadequacy more than one of his latest outbursts ... which not even the most ardent sceptic has picked up to run with.
Maddie's parents' anguish over disgraced detective's coffin claims
08:21, 17 JUN 2014
BY ELEANOR BARLOW
**Snip
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
"At that time they were the most-watched couple in the history of the modern media.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-hid-body-7277975
Absolutely incredible that this man who saw conspiracy theories round every corner which had as much basis as his 'coffin theory' did, which is absolutely zilch in my reckoning is held up as the bastion of all that is great and good and is the fountain of all knowledge.
His bosses in the PJ latterly obviously didn't share his opinion of himself ... else why sack him from the investigation?
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I believe you have reached the wrong conclusion with with regard to your "KEY POINT".
In my opinion the first key point is that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on 3rd May 2007.
The second key point is that Goncalo Amaral was entirely the wrong person to have been appointed to lead the case of a missing child.
At the time there were too many questions hanging over the head of the man ... not least the one which was the reason for his arguido status.
Leaving the book aside for the moment. I think that nothing the man has subsequently said or done in the intervening period illustrates his inadequacy more than one of his latest outbursts ... which not even the most ardent sceptic has picked up to run with.
Maddie's parents' anguish over disgraced detective's coffin claims
08:21, 17 JUN 2014
BY ELEANOR BARLOW
**Snip
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
"At that time they were the most-watched couple in the history of the modern media.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-hid-body-7277975
Absolutely incredible that this man who saw conspiracy theories round every corner which had as much basis as his 'coffin theory' did, which is absolutely zilch in my reckoning is held up as the bastion of all that is great and good and is the fountain of all knowledge.
His bosses in the PJ latterly obviously didn't share his opinion of himself ... else why sack him from the investigation?
Your opinion of courser.
..and of no value to any investigation.
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I believe you have reached the wrong conclusion with with regard to your "KEY POINT".
In my opinion the first key point is that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on 3rd May 2007.
The second key point is that Goncalo Amaral was entirely the wrong person to have been appointed to lead the case of a missing child.
At the time there were too many questions hanging over the head of the man ... not least the one which was the reason for his arguido status.
Leaving the book aside for the moment. I think that nothing the man has subsequently said or done in the intervening period illustrates his inadequacy more than one of his latest outbursts ... which not even the most ardent sceptic has picked up to run with.
Maddie's parents' anguish over disgraced detective's coffin claims
08:21, 17 JUN 2014
BY ELEANOR BARLOW
**Snip
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
"At that time they were the most-watched couple in the history of the modern media.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-hid-body-7277975
Absolutely incredible that this man who saw conspiracy theories round every corner which had as much basis as his 'coffin theory' did, which is absolutely zilch in my reckoning is held up as the bastion of all that is great and good and is the fountain of all knowledge.
His bosses in the PJ latterly obviously didn't share his opinion of himself ... else why sack him from the investigation?
Let's not forget the sources close tyo the couple.
Namely the McCann's way of accusation without becoming directly involved. 8)-)))
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How would you know anything....
Amaral's track-record of two investigations I know something about, McCann and Cipriano.
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Amaral's track-record of two investigations I know something about, McCann and Cipriano.
..and of course you're not the least bit biased. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Your opinion of courser.
..and of no value to any investigation.
Actually I think that rather sums up Mr Amaral's situation. " ..and of no value to any investigation."
Occasionally you do come up with a rather pertinent point.
Goncalo Amaral ... in my opinion ... put a blight on any hope there may have been of recovering Madeleine from his first formulation of his theory in the case to his last miscalculation.
One wonders how quickly this ineptitude became obvious to his superiors ... and why they allowed it to progress to the stage it did.
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Actually I think that rather sums up Mr Amaral's situation. " ..and of no value to any investigation."
Occasionally you do come up with a rather pertinent point.
Goncalo Amaral ... in my opinion ... put a blight on any hope there may have been of recovering Madeleine from his first formulation of his theory in the case to his last miscalculation.
One wonders how quickly this ineptitude became obvious to his superiors ... and why they allowed it to progress to the stage it did.
Too busy keeping an eye on the thugs in Lisbon, possibly.
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Too busy keeping an eye on the thugs in Lisbon, possibly.
Utter rubbish.
He was the case coordinator.
Try stopping that clichéd myth that no one was searching for Madeleine.
Many people did that for weeks and months, including the police.
Unlike her parents, who stopped searching the morning after, the night she disappeared.
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Utter rubbish.
He was the case coordinator.
Try stopping that clichéd myth that no one was searching for Madeleine.
Many people did that for weeks and months, including the police.
Unlike her parents, who stopped searching the morning after, the night she disappeared.
amaral should never have been on the case with his background
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You do know that Amaral was a very successful cop in Portugal with arrests and record drug busts? He was respected by his colleagues. You don't see any bad-mouthing him after he left the force. You do that 8(0(*
And yet according to Sofia he was passed over for a promotion which he fully expected to get.
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And yet according to Sofia he was passed over for a promotion which he fully expected to get.
Where exactly did this "record drug busts" assertion come from?
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Where exactly did this "record drug busts" assertion come from?
Nigel Moore (who else)?
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/20-dec8/MCCANNFILES-05-12-08.htm
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And yet according to Sofia he was passed over for a promotion which he fully expected to get.
I don't know about promotions but if he was breaking records in Portugal for his work then it sounds reasonable.
"Gonçalo was nominated, still as an Agent, to head a Investigation Squad at the DCITE. Anyone who was with that department at that time, will remember that the results that were achieved by that Squad, under the charismatic leadership of Gonçalo Amaral, soon surpassed the average statistics. The numbers that were achieved by him and his men, both in terms of arrested individuals, and of narcotics or possessions and valuables that were apprehended, or even of condemnations in court, marked an epoch at the DCITE and set an example.
I know. I remember it well. I was there."
Lisboa, July 3, 2008,
João Fernandes Figueira
A.S.F.I.C./P.J. member nr. 711
GA: If we are talking about the Irish family's testimony that I have referred to, then it has an enormous relevance to the investigation.
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I don't know about promotions but if he was breaking records in Portugal for his work then it sounds reasonable.
"Gonçalo was nominated, still as an Agent, to head a Investigation Squad at the DCITE. Anyone who was with that department at that time, will remember that the results that were achieved by that Squad, under the charismatic leadership of Gonçalo Amaral, soon surpassed the average statistics. The numbers that were achieved by him and his men, both in terms of arrested individuals, and of narcotics or possessions and valuables that were apprehended, or even of condemnations in court, marked an epoch at the DCITE and set an example.
I know. I remember it well. I was there."
Lisboa, July 3, 2008,
João Fernandes Figueira
A.S.F.I.C./P.J. member nr. 711
GA: If we are talking about the Irish family's testimony that I have referred to, then it has an enormous relevance to the investigation.
According to Sofia - this is the reason why he was overlooked:-
Quote
He was the man in Portugal who seized most drugs, but as he didn't have the time to parade himself in the corridors of the PJ's institution, he was not promoted. A disgrace, madam, a disgrace!
Unquote
So apparently according to Sofia - your record of success doesn't count with the PJ authorities when it comes to promotion. Dear me - how insulting to the PJ is that?
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I believe you have reached the wrong conclusion with with regard to your "KEY POINT".
In my opinion the first key point is that Madeleine McCann vanished from her bed on 3rd May 2007.
The second key point is that Goncalo Amaral was entirely the wrong person to have been appointed to lead the case of a missing child.
At the time there were too many questions hanging over the head of the man ... not least the one which was the reason for his arguido status.
Leaving the book aside for the moment. I think that nothing the man has subsequently said or done in the intervening period illustrates his inadequacy more than one of his latest outbursts ... which not even the most ardent sceptic has picked up to run with.
Maddie's parents' anguish over disgraced detective's coffin claims
08:21, 17 JUN 2014
BY ELEANOR BARLOW
**Snip
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
"At that time they were the most-watched couple in the history of the modern media.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-hid-body-7277975
Absolutely incredible that this man who saw conspiracy theories round every corner which had as much basis as his 'coffin theory' did, which is absolutely zilch in my reckoning is held up as the bastion of all that is great and good and is the fountain of all knowledge.
His bosses in the PJ latterly obviously didn't share his opinion of himself ... else why sack him from the investigation?
I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about. Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article? I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo. Or is there a further source in English?
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I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about. Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article? I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo. Or is there a further source in English?
What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
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I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about. Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article? I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo. Or is there a further source in English?
Gonçalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead.
"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html
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What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
Is there any evidence to support it?
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What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
It requires the retrieval of the body from wherever it was being stored before.
It requires the transport of the body to the church, whether on foot or by car.
It requires the transfer from a car into the church, if a car was used.
If the coffin was closed, it requires the opening of the coffin and the closing of the coffin.
I assume, but do not know, that the coffin would be open, to enable the body to be viewed. If so, concealing Madeleine's body in it was one of the riskiest parts of this operation. After all, who else had a key to the church to allow such a clandestine operation to be carried out?
Are people undergoing cremation permitted to be within a Catholic or Anglican church? I saw a programme last week about, amongst other things, the first crematorium in Britain. It arose because atheists did not agree with the Anglican church that bodies should always be buried.
As Luz is in a Catholic land, I would need to see evidence that those to be cremated are permitted in the church.
Since this clandestine operation would have had to have been done at night, I would need to understand why a coffin intended for cremation was permitted to remain there overnight. If it was because a funeral service had been conducted, then surely the coffin should have been removed after that? If it was because a funeral service was to be conducted the next day, how did the McCanns know the coffin was there?
Did the McCanns know the coffin was to be cremated? If so, how?
Does the cremation angle matter a jot? From the role play of the McCanns as villains, I mean. If they had stuck the body into a burial coffin (and a burial coffin seems much more likely in that church), would it make a difference to them if the operation was successful? By successful, I mean they got the body into the coffin undetected, and the coffin was buried without incident. Was someone going to dig that coffin up again, and check just in case? Or for another reason?
The cremation angle matters in Amaral's tale though. It is necessary from that angle that the coffin (or coffins) around that time cannot be identified and dug up. The coffin has to be cremated to stymie this act.
Now let's turn to this source. How and when did the source get this information. Directly, by observing the act? Permitting the act to continue I would be fairly sure is illegal. I cannot see how the parents of a missing child can place her corpse in someone else's coffin, with the intent of disposing of the body, and permitting the act to continue be legal. So an observer was duty bound to stop the act or, as a minimum, report the act to the police in a prompt manner, certainly before any burial or cremation.
Perhaps the source was told this by another person, after the cremation had occurred? One simply goes up the food chain to repeat exactly the same argument. This new person had to observe act, and fail to stop it or report it.
Let's refocus on the source. If credible, such a source has damning evidence against the McCanns. Enough to sink them in a criminal case. Get a witness to give testimony that the McCanns did this and the McCanns are toast.
Bear in mind that a witness in Portugal is obliged to answer all questions truthfully, therefore a wipe-out of the McCanns was guaranteed. No such wipe-out happened.
This idea is one of the myths surrounding Madeleine McCann. They are easy to create, and easy to tell. They gain credence from many, who retell them as the truth or even as a possible truth. Examine them carefully and they just don't stand up to scrutiny.
The idea is nonsense. Madeleine did not go into someone else's coffin and get cremated. The McCanns did not put her body in someone else's coffin in a clandestine operation in the middle of the night.
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It requires the retrieval of the body from wherever it was being stored before.
It requires the transport of the body to the church, whether on foot or by car.
It requires the transfer from a car into the church, if a car was used.
If the coffin was closed, it requires the opening of the coffin and the closing of the coffin.
I assume, but do not know, that the coffin would be open, to enable the body to be viewed. If so, concealing Madeleine's body in it was one of the riskiest parts of this operation. After all, who else had a key to the church to allow such a clandestine operation to be carried out?
Are people undergoing cremation permitted to be within a Catholic or Anglican church? I saw a programme last week about, amongst other things, the first crematorium in Britain. It arose because atheists did not agree with the Anglican church that bodies should always be buried.
As Luz is in a Catholic land, I would need to see evidence that those to be cremated are permitted in the church.
Since this clandestine operation would have had to have been done at night, I would need to understand why a coffin intended for cremation was permitted to remain there overnight. If it was because a funeral service had been conducted, then surely the coffin should have been removed after that? If it was because a funeral service was to be conducted the next day, how did the McCanns know the coffin was there?
Did the McCanns know the coffin was to be cremated? If so, how?
Does the cremation angle matter a jot? From the role play of the McCanns as villains, I mean. If they had stuck the body into a burial coffin (and a burial coffin seems much more likely in that church), would it make a difference to them if the operation was successful? By successful, I mean they got the body into the coffin undetected, and the coffin was buried without incident. Was someone going to dig that coffin up again, and check just in case? Or for another reason?
The cremation angle matters in Amaral's tale though. It is necessary from that angle that the coffin (or coffins) around that time cannot be identified and dug up. The coffin has to be cremated to stymie this act.
Now let's turn to this source. How and when did the source get this information. Directly, by observing the act? Permitting the act to continue I would be fairly sure is illegal. I cannot see how the parents of a missing child can place her corpse in someone else's coffin, with the intent of disposing of the body, and permitting the act to continue be legal. So an observer was duty bound to stop the act or, as a minimum, report the act to the police in a prompt manner, certainly before any burial or cremation.
Perhaps the source was told this by another person, after the cremation had occurred? One simply goes up the food chain to repeat exactly the same argument. This new person had to observe act, and fail to stop it or report it.
Let's refocus on the source. If credible, such a source has damning evidence against the McCanns. Enough to sink them in a criminal case. Get a witness to give testimony that the McCanns did this and the McCanns are toast.
Bear in mind that a witness in Portugal is obliged to answer all questions truthfully, therefore a wipe-out of the McCanns was guaranteed. No such wipe-out happened.
This idea is one of the myths surrounding Madeleine McCann. They are easy to create, and easy to tell. They gain credence from many, who retell them as the truth or even as a possible truth. Examine them carefully and they just don't stand up to scrutiny.
The idea is nonsense. Madeleine did not go into someone else's coffin and get cremated. The McCanns did not put her body in someone else's coffin in a clandestine operation in the middle of the night.
I agree that it doesn't make sense... but then few of Amaral's spoutings do.
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I agree that it doesn't make sense... but then few of Amaral's spoutings do.
This one at least has been allowed to die the death ... apparently even his most rabid supporters have declined repetition ... so implausible all it reveals is desperation and embarrassment.
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This one at least has been allowed to die the death ... apparently even his most rabid supporters have declined repetition ... so implausible all it reveals is desperation and embarrassment.
And yet there are those, 'moderators' to boot (what a splendid idea!), who want to 'explore' it.
I despair ....
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I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about. Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article? I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo. Or is there a further source in English?
Polícia inglesa esconde provas no caso Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral diz que informações fornecidas por uma mulher que viu pai de Maddie a caminhar em direção à praia desapareceram dos ficheiros.
06/16/2014 07:
34 British police seek evidence in the case Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral says information provided by a woman who saw the father of Maddie walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
Poucos dias depois de Madeleine McCann ter desaparecido do aldeamento turístico Ocean Club, na Praia da Luz, Algarve, a 3 de maio de 2007 (há sete anos), surgiu uma testemunha: uma turista britânica que disse ter visto o pai da menina a andar na praia à noite. A revelação foi feita pelo ex-coordenador da PJ Gonçalo Amaral, que acrescenta que os dados dessa testemunha desapareceram. "Tentámos recuperar esse testemunho e os documentos que se encontravam na esfera britânica e simplesmente desapareceram. Ainda hoje não sabemos quem é essa pessoa e onde está", disse Gonçalo Amaral. Hoje, o ex-coordenador da PJ de Portimão vai encontrar-se novamente com Gerry e Kate no Palácio da Justiça, em Lisboa, uma vez que vai continuar o julgamento em que o casal britânico pede 1,2 milhões de euros de indemnização pela publicação do livro 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira', da autoria de Gonçalo Amaral, em que defende a tese de que os pais são os responsáveis pelo desaparecimento da menina e pela ocultação do cadáver (ver caixa). Gonçalo Amaral não tem dúvidas de que a Maddie está morta. "Os pais da menina tinham a chave da igreja e nessa mesma igreja foi realizado um velório um mês depois do desaparecimento. Segundo algumas informações, a criança bem podia ir nos pés dessa mulher que ia ser cremada", explicou ainda Gonçalo Amaral.
A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the holiday village Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, Algarve, on 3 May 2007 (seven years ago), a witness appeared: a British tourist who said he saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared. "We tried to recover that testimony and documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Even today we do not know who that person is and where it is," said Gonçalo Amaral. Today, the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will meet again with Gerry and Kate at the Palace of Justice in Lisbon, since it will continue the trial in which the British couple asks EUR 1.2 million compensation for publication the book 'Maddie, the Truth of the Lie', written by Gonçalo Amaral, in which defends the thesis that parents are responsible for the girl's disappearance and the concealment of the body (see box). Gonçalo Amaral has no doubt that Maddie is dead. "The girl's parents had the key to the church and in the same church was held a funeral a month after the disappearance. According to some reports, the child could well go the feet of the woman who was to be cremated," further explained Gonçalo Amaral.
Ler mais em: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie.html&usg=ALkJrhgrbk-t9PWxFF1OBhenHF0bOfnbcg
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Maybe we should have a discussion about "Loot" by Joe Orton ?>)()<
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What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
then there must be a lot you do not understand...I find your statement astonishing
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And yet there are those, 'moderators' to boot (what a splendid idea!), who want to 'explore' it.
I despair ....
Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored. I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum. It is not.
I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet. I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz. I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.
One can do one of two things with such ideas. One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis. Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.
I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.
I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info. The members pointed me at more info. I have carried out my offer.
Are we a small step forward as a result? For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale. Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz. This advance may or may not be important. Time will tell.
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then there must be a lot you do not understand...I find your statement astonishing
Instead of one liners why not write out a complete activity list marking each activity you think is impossible*.
* impossible as in "you can't lift a 100Te load with a 50Te crane". Not "ooo errr I think that's impossible", because it suits.
Do that and we can have interesting debate ..........maybe.
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Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored. I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum. It is not.
I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet. I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz. I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.
One can do one of two things with such ideas. One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis. Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.
I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.
I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info. The members pointed me at more info. I have carried out my offer.
Are we a small step forward as a result? For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale. Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz. This advance may or may not be important. Time will tell.
Right oh!
Take good pictures with your new camera ...
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Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored. I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum. It is not.
I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet. I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz. I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.
One can do one of two things with such ideas. One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis. Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.
I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.
I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info. The members pointed me at more info. I have carried out my offer.
Are we a small step forward as a result? For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale. Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz. This advance may or may not be important. Time will tell.
Under no circumstances would I refer to the allegation as an "advance" ... no more so than the "missing data in the British sphere". If that were so, I find that they must have been tremendously incompetent at cover up if they were careless enough to let Mr Amaral get a sniff of it's existence.
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He's making up stories like he did in The Cipriano Case. Anything, no matter how absurd, to give credence to his ridiculous determination to blame The McCanns, mainly Kate McCann.
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He's making up stories like he did in The Cipriano Case. Anything, no matter how absurd, to give credence to his ridiculous determination to blame The McCanns, mainly Kate McCann.
Indubitably .....
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He's making up stories like he did in The Cipriano Case. Anything, no matter how absurd, to give credence to his ridiculous determination to blame The McCanns, mainly Kate McCann.
What made up stories ?
Cites please.
As to the mccanns, they are the people whose behaviour triggered this case.
No doubt on that, whatsoever.
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What made up stories ?
Cites please.
As to the mccanns, they are the people whose behaviour triggered this case.
No doubt on that, whatsoever.
I would say that MW encouraging parents to use baby listening services must take some blame
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No doubt we will end up having it anyway. However to make it work I think it would be necessary that provenance be provided that reception of a coffin had indeed occurred on the date in question, had lain overnight in the church and was committed to a crematorium for a funeral.
That is just for starters.
How on earth was a man who saw intelligence officers or the equivalent lurking in every corner to pervert the course of justice as interpreted by him ... allowed anywhere near any police operation let alone to head a missing child investigation?
It was the weekend of 2/3 June 2007 so get investigating the church and those dates if you want to prove him wrong.
"He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished."
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Far better to have a SY SIO who fitted up an innocent man and sent him to prison for years lead up Operation Grange, I totally agree with you Brietta
LOL
amaral fitted up cipriano and sent her to prison for years
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It requires the retrieval of the body from wherever it was being stored before.
It requires the transport of the body to the church, whether on foot or by car.
It requires the transfer from a car into the church, if a car was used.
If the coffin was closed, it requires the opening of the coffin and the closing of the coffin.
I assume, but do not know, that the coffin would be open, to enable the body to be viewed. If so, concealing Madeleine's body in it was one of the riskiest parts of this operation. After all, who else had a key to the church to allow such a clandestine operation to be carried out?
Are people undergoing cremation permitted to be within a Catholic or Anglican church? I saw a programme last week about, amongst other things, the first crematorium in Britain. It arose because atheists did not agree with the Anglican church that bodies should always be buried.
As Luz is in a Catholic land, I would need to see evidence that those to be cremated are permitted in the church.
Since this clandestine operation would have had to have been done at night, I would need to understand why a coffin intended for cremation was permitted to remain there overnight. If it was because a funeral service had been conducted, then surely the coffin should have been removed after that? If it was because a funeral service was to be conducted the next day, how did the McCanns know the coffin was there?
Did the McCanns know the coffin was to be cremated? If so, how?
Does the cremation angle matter a jot? From the role play of the McCanns as villains, I mean. If they had stuck the body into a burial coffin (and a burial coffin seems much more likely in that church), would it make a difference to them if the operation was successful? By successful, I mean they got the body into the coffin undetected, and the coffin was buried without incident. Was someone going to dig that coffin up again, and check just in case? Or for another reason?
The cremation angle matters in Amaral's tale though. It is necessary from that angle that the coffin (or coffins) around that time cannot be identified and dug up. The coffin has to be cremated to stymie this act.
Now let's turn to this source. How and when did the source get this information. Directly, by observing the act? Permitting the act to continue I would be fairly sure is illegal. I cannot see how the parents of a missing child can place her corpse in someone else's coffin, with the intent of disposing of the body, and permitting the act to continue be legal. So an observer was duty bound to stop the act or, as a minimum, report the act to the police in a prompt manner, certainly before any burial or cremation.
Perhaps the source was told this by another person, after the cremation had occurred? One simply goes up the food chain to repeat exactly the same argument. This new person had to observe act, and fail to stop it or report it.
Let's refocus on the source. If credible, such a source has damning evidence against the McCanns. Enough to sink them in a criminal case. Get a witness to give testimony that the McCanns did this and the McCanns are toast.
Bear in mind that a witness in Portugal is obliged to answer all questions truthfully, therefore a wipe-out of the McCanns was guaranteed. No such wipe-out happened.
This idea is one of the myths surrounding Madeleine McCann. They are easy to create, and easy to tell. They gain credence from many, who retell them as the truth or even as a possible truth. Examine them carefully and they just don't stand up to scrutiny.
The idea is nonsense. Madeleine did not go into someone else's coffin and get cremated. The McCanns did not put her body in someone else's coffin in a clandestine operation in the middle of the night.
Clearly you don't understand the funeral business.
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then there must be a lot you do not understand...I find your statement astonishing
Why?
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Clearly you don't understand the funeral business.
With all due respect, can I kindly ROFL?
I went into bat for your right to ask the question you did.
Your one liner is I don't understand the funeral business. What??
Well done, you have just succeed in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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With all due respect, can I kindly ROFL?
I went into bat for your right to ask the question you did.
Your one liner is I don't understand the funeral business. What??
Well done, you have just succeed in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
It's not a question of defeat or victory. Your post contained a number of inaccuracies.
Is the coffin open or closed...do you have a screwdriver?
Are coffins allowed in churches prior to cremation...the vast majority of church funeral services both Anglican and catholic go for cremation.
Coffins are often carried into churches the night before funeral services and remain overnight.
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It's not a question of defeat or victory. Your post contained a number of inaccuracies.
Is the coffin open or closed...do you have a screwdriver?
Are coffins allowed in churches prior to cremation...the vast majority of church funeral services both Anglican and catholic go for cremation.
Coffins are often carried into churches the night before funeral services and remain overnight.
so are you suggesting it is possible that maddie was placed in a strangers coffin
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so are you suggesting it is possible that maddie was placed in a strangers coffin
I'm suggesting that some of the arguments against it are wrong.
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With all due respect, can I kindly ROFL?
I went into bat for your right to ask the question you did.
Your one liner is I don't understand the funeral business. What??
Well done, you have just succeed in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
whats the difference between the possibility someone made sure a child was cremated and kate mccann leaving her two kids behind ready to be abducted on top of her first born for all she knew...have a good think
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whats the difference between the possibility someone made sure a child was cremated and kate mccann leaving her two kids behind ready to be abducted on top of her first born for all she knew...have a good think
The pet crematorium was checked out ... and why wouldn't it be? ... but was found to be a complete non starter. I believe the theory then was that Madeleine's remains had been concealed within the corpse of a large dog ... a golden lab or retriever ???
The starting point for Mr Amaral's latest wheeze (apparently not mentioned prior to 2014) is confirmation that there was a body in the church at the time in question which went on to be cremated.
The onus is on any who claim Mr Amaral's theory is possible whether or not it is in the slightest probable ... to come up with that information.
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It's not a question of defeat or victory. Your post contained a number of inaccuracies.
Is the coffin open or closed...do you have a screwdriver?
Are coffins allowed in churches prior to cremation...the vast majority of church funeral services both Anglican and catholic go for cremation.
Coffins are often carried into churches the night before funeral services and remain overnight.
Please cite the in-accuracies. Not hard.
A number of people were after you, personally, for your relatively crude post. I chose to look into what actually happened.
Coffins, with a screwdriver. Please get into 2016. I do NOT own a working screwdriver in the Algarve, as of this date.
Time to wrap your mind around, what the McCanns might have done, and what they were incapable of.
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The pet crematorium was checked out ... and why wouldn't it be? ... but was found to be a complete non starter. I believe the theory then was that Madeleine's remains had been concealed within the corpse of a large dog ... a golden lab or retriever ???
The starting point for Mr Amaral's latest wheeze (apparently not mentioned prior to 2014) is confirmation that there was a body in the church at the time in question which went on to be cremated.
The onus is on any who claim Mr Amaral's theory is possible whether or not it is in the slightest probable ... to come up with that information.
You didnt solve the puzzle or come anywhere near but best wishes for taking part
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Please cite the in-accuracies. Not hard.
A number of people were after you, personally, for your relatively crude post. I chose to look into what actually happened.
Coffins, with a screwdriver. Please get into 2016. I do NOT own a working screwdriver in the Algarve, as of this date.
Time to wrap your mind around, what the McCanns might have done, and what they were incapable of.
I think the focus should be on verifying whether or not such a scenario could have presented itself ... i.e who was the old lady, and do the circumstances of her burial match the allegation.
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You didnt solve the puzzle or come anywhere near but best wishes for taking part
Thank you, Mercury.
I really do not think there is any puzzle at all ... nor do I think there is any foundation for one. My reasoning for that is that the particular allegation appears to have been dropped like a hot potato ... by those who blush not at promoting all other nonsenses if uttered by the great man himself.
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Thank you, Mercury.
I really do not think there is any puzzle at all ... nor do I think there is any foundation for one. My reasoning for that is that the particular allegation appears to have been dropped like a hot potato ... by those who blush not at promoting all other nonsenses if uttered by the great man himself.
Dont be so silly the whole case is a puzzle....One thing it certainly isnt is a slam dunk abduction case
....not anywhere near it either
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Please cite the in-accuracies. Not hard.
A number of people were after you, personally, for your relatively crude post. I chose to look into what actually happened.
Coffins, with a screwdriver. Please get into 2016. I do NOT own a working screwdriver in the Algarve, as of this date.
Time to wrap your mind around, what the McCanns might have done, and what they were incapable of.
Just did.
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The big question is, had Gonçalo Amaral not been removed from his post as Coordinator of the Madeleine McCann investigation what would have happened?
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The big question is, had Gonçalo Amaral not been removed from his post as Coordinator of the Madeleine McCann investigation what would have happened?
He said he'd have carried on looking for a freezer and would have got members of the Smith family over again (not hard to guess which ones)...
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The big question is, had Gonçalo Amaral not been removed from his post as Coordinator of the Madeleine McCann investigation what would have happened?
Failure to elicit a confession from either parent certainly threw a spanner into the works. Is there one of the infamous 48 which would have lent one iota towards adding to the sum of knowledge of what might have happened to Madeleine.
I think not.
Is it possible he would have run with the dogs and Madeleine's DNA in the Renault? If he had is it possible the Portuguese prosecutors would have accepted that as grounds for prosecution?
Bearing in mind they were not idiots and they would have access to the final FSS information as well as being all too aware of the eyes of the world and the excellent legal representation enjoyed by the Drs McCann ... I think not.
That would have left him with Mr Smith's change of statement.
I think the prosecutors would have studied Mr McCluskey's statement and taken that into account.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm
Only Mr Smith added to his statement with the other members of the Smith family whose statements we have seen in the files disagreeing with him.
It was decided that there had not been sufficient evidence to make the Drs McCann arguidos in the first instance. Had Goncalo Amaral waited a couple of days before doing so a change in Portuguese law would thus have ensured that they were not made arguidos in the first place.
There was no evidence which allowed it.
Therefore had he not been sacked and had he proceeded down the road of trying to bring Madeleine's parents to trial I think the proper implementation of Portuguese jurisprudence would have entailed him ending up with egg on his face. If there was no evidence ... and there was none ... there would have been no trial.
I think nothing exemplifies his professional inadequacies more than his pursuit of the Drs McCann, preferably Kate, and is a perfect illustration of why he should never have been allowed near a missing child case.
The pursuit of and the traducing of the chief investigator's preferred suspects right from the word go illustrates that the plight or fate of the missing child seemed to take a back seat to his need to prosecute (the mother?).
As far as I know police investigations pursue evidence which can lead to another - and another - and another - or perhaps a dead end when another avenue of investigation needs to be followed.
I think the outcome would have been much the same without his sacking and I think he would have been moved so far sideways he would have had no option but resignation.
The only difference I could see being that were he arrogant enough still to write and promote his theory in a book ... it would not have enjoyed the same kudos as it would have been plain to all that his theory did not stand the test of a Portuguese court as there was no evidence to get it there.
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Failure to elicit a confession from either parent certainly threw a spanner into the works. Is there one of the infamous 48 which would have lent one iota towards adding to the sum of knowledge of what might have happened to Madeleine.
I think not.
Is it possible he would have run with the dogs and Madeleine's DNA in the Renault? If he had is it possible the Portuguese prosecutors would have accepted that as grounds for prosecution?
Bearing in mind they were not idiots and they would have access to the final FSS information as well as being all too aware of the eyes of the world and the excellent legal representation enjoyed by the Drs McCann ... I think not.
That would have left him with Mr Smith's change of statement.
I think the prosecutors would have studied Mr McCluskey's statement and taken that into account.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm
Only Mr Smith added to his statement with the other members of the Smith family whose statements we have seen in the files disagreeing with him.
It was decided that there had not been sufficient evidence to make the Drs McCann arguidos in the first instance. Had Goncalo Amaral waited a couple of days before doing so a change in Portuguese law would thus have ensured that they were not made arguidos in the first place.
There was no evidence which allowed it.
Therefore had he not been sacked and had he proceeded down the road of trying to bring Madeleine's parents to trial I think the proper implementation of Portuguese jurisprudence would have entailed him ending up with egg on his face. If there was no evidence ... and there was none ... there would have been no trial.
I think nothing exemplifies his professional inadequacies more than his pursuit of the Drs McCann, preferably Kate, and is a perfect illustration of why he should never have been allowed near a missing child case.
The pursuit of and the traducing of the chief investigator's preferred suspects right from the word go illustrates that the plight or fate of the missing child seemed to take a back seat to his need to prosecute (the mother?).
As far as I know police investigations pursue evidence which can lead to another - and another - and another - or perhaps a dead end when another avenue of investigation needs to be followed.
I think the outcome would have been much the same without his sacking and I think he would have been moved so far sideways he would have had no option but resignation.
The only difference I could see being that were he arrogant enough still to write and promote his theory in a book ... it would not have enjoyed the same kudos as it would have been plain to all that his theory did not stand the test of a Portuguese court as there was no evidence to get it there.
You talk about the arrogance of Amaral writing a book, yet you overlook kate mccanns effort in the literary field, which only arose in the first place, due to her and her husbands neglect of their three children.
The irony of your post could not be any more obvious.
As to inadequacies, look no further than what the mccanns failed to do.
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"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html
Known fact: the parents had a key.
Quite possibly fact: a vigil took place for some deceased lady.
Speculation: "...could have been placed..."
Out of curiosity, when exactly was this vigil? The church must have some kind of record.
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Failure to elicit a confession from either parent certainly threw a spanner into the works. Is there one of the infamous 48 which would have lent one iota towards adding to the sum of knowledge of what might have happened to Madeleine.
I think not.
Is it possible he would have run with the dogs and Madeleine's DNA in the Renault? If he had is it possible the Portuguese prosecutors would have accepted that as grounds for prosecution?
Bearing in mind they were not idiots and they would have access to the final FSS information as well as being all too aware of the eyes of the world and the excellent legal representation enjoyed by the Drs McCann ... I think not.
That would have left him with Mr Smith's change of statement.
I think the prosecutors would have studied Mr McCluskey's statement and taken that into account.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm
Only Mr Smith added to his statement with the other members of the Smith family whose statements we have seen in the files disagreeing with him.
It was decided that there had not been sufficient evidence to make the Drs McCann arguidos in the first instance. Had Goncalo Amaral waited a couple of days before doing so a change in Portuguese law would thus have ensured that they were not made arguidos in the first place.
There was no evidence which allowed it.
Therefore had he not been sacked and had he proceeded down the road of trying to bring Madeleine's parents to trial I think the proper implementation of Portuguese jurisprudence would have entailed him ending up with egg on his face. If there was no evidence ... and there was none ... there would have been no trial.
I think nothing exemplifies his professional inadequacies more than his pursuit of the Drs McCann, preferably Kate, and is a perfect illustration of why he should never have been allowed near a missing child case.
The pursuit of and the traducing of the chief investigator's preferred suspects right from the word go illustrates that the plight or fate of the missing child seemed to take a back seat to his need to prosecute (the mother?).
As far as I know police investigations pursue evidence which can lead to another - and another - and another - or perhaps a dead end when another avenue of investigation needs to be followed.
I think the outcome would have been much the same without his sacking and I think he would have been moved so far sideways he would have had no option but resignation.
The only difference I could see being that were he arrogant enough still to write and promote his theory in a book ... it would not have enjoyed the same kudos as it would have been plain to all that his theory did not stand the test of a Portuguese court as there was no evidence to get it there.
There was no evidence of substance in the Cipriano case aside from that "reconstruction"...
Bearing in mind that the Cipriano trial took place just two years before the McCanns were made arguidos, if they had been uneducated Portuguese peasants with the same prosecutor, judges and jury and defence as in that case... would the outcome have been different?
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You talk about the arrogance of Amaral writing a book, yet you overlook kate mccanns effort in the literary field, which only arose in the first place, due to her and her husbands neglect of their three children.
The irony of your post could not be any more obvious.
As to inadequacies, look no further than what the mccanns failed to do.
Amaral's money went into his pocket, the McCann's went into the fund for Madeleine. I don't blame Kate writing her book after the way Amaral used his book to accuse the McCann's of all sorts of things, from drugging their children to hiding her body. He also hinted at swinging, and there was a dark hint about his dog being killed, quite sickening I thought.
You go on again about the McCann's leaving Madeleine alone, your usual argument about everything, the McCann's know they did wrong, that doesn't mean they didn't go out to do all they can to find her, and that meant stopping Amaral making his nasty accusations.
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"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html
Known fact: the parents had a key.
Quite possibly fact: a vigil took place for some deceased lady.
Speculation: "...could have been placed..."
Out of curiosity, when exactly was this vigil? The church must have some kind of record.
Surely the whole point of a ''vigil'' is for people to actually stay with the corpse/coffin? Perhaps they were so deep in prayer they didn't notice the McCanns - (who by then probably had the most recognisable faces in PdL) putting a dead body into the coffin alongside their loved one. Jeez.
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Surely the whole point of a ''vigil'' is for people to actually stay with the corpse/coffin? Perhaps they were so deep in prayer they didn't notice the McCanns - (who by then probably had the most recognisable faces in PdL) putting a dead body into the coffin alongside their loved one. Jeez.
Well, I suppose it changes from being fed to pigs...
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There was no evidence of substance in the Cipriano case aside from that "reconstruction"...
Bearing in mind that the Cipriano trial took place just two years before the McCanns were made arguidos, if they had been uneducated Portuguese peasants with the same prosecutor, judges and jury and defence as in that case... would the outcome have been different?
If what happened to Madeleine had happened to a working class Portuguese child ... I have absolutely no doubt that Joana's case would have been replicated.
Without the publicity and without the resources enabling the employment of a top notch legal team enjoyed by Madeleine's parents ... I think they would have been struggling too.
I believe that is certainly what the end the investigation was geared up to attain. In neither Joana or Madeleine's case did the missing child appear to be much of a feature.
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"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html
Known fact: the parents had a key.
Quite possibly fact: a vigil took place for some deceased lady.
Speculation: "...could have been placed..."
Out of curiosity, when exactly was this vigil? The church must have some kind of record.
Sunday 3 June 2007 - one month after she disappeared.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." (Madeleine by Kate McCann)
GM Blog 22 August 2007
Kate is keen to get in touch with a very nice mum, who she spoke with at the toddler pool in the Ocean Club on Sunday 3rd June. She is sure you will remember the conversation and Kate would be grateful if you could get in touch at with her at campaign@findmadeleine.com
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If the McCanns had been the Ciprianos, I expect we could write the script of how the trial would have gone, even without slippery stairs.
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Sunday 3 June 2007 - one month after she disappeared.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." (Madeleine by Kate McCann)
GM Blog 22 August 2007
Kate is keen to get in touch with a very nice mum, who she spoke with at the toddler pool in the Ocean Club on Sunday 3rd June. She is sure you will remember the conversation and Kate would be grateful if you could get in touch at with her at campaign@findmadeleine.com
I don't follow... what's the significance?
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I don't follow... what's the significance?
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." on SUN 3 June
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"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." on SUN 3 June
She'd had a nice chat with a lady with a toddler at the pool and slept well that night.
What's the connection with a vigil?
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That was an added extra.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."
That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others
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That was an added extra.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."
That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others
What???
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Amaral's money went into his pocket, the McCann's went into the fund for Madeleine. I don't blame Kate writing her book after the way Amaral used his book to accuse the McCann's of all sorts of things, from drugging their children to hiding her body. He also hinted at swinging, and there was a dark hint about his dog being killed, quite sickening I thought.
You go on again about the McCann's leaving Madeleine alone, your usual argument about everything, the McCann's know they did wrong, that doesn't mean they didn't go out to do all they can to find her, and that meant stopping Amaral making his nasty accusations.
and the money from the serialization rights in the 'sun'.
Where did that go exactly ?
None of these books would have been necessary, including of course, Summers and Swans 'effort'
As to the crime, if any, UNKNOWN.
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That was an added extra.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."
That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others %£&)**#
Right ... the mothers of missing children are not allowed to sleep now??? Hmmmm.
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Right ... the mothers of missing children are not allowed to sleep now??? Hmmmm.
Pathfinder did not say that.
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and the money from the serialization rights in the 'sun'.
Where did that go exactly ?
None of these books would have been necessary, including of course, Summers and Swans 'effort'
As to the crime, if any, UNKNOWN.
However it still goes nowhere towards addressing either exactly why you may appear to agree with the title of the thread. Or why you may disagree.
Mr Amaral has come up with one or two pretty amazing theories over the past few years.
Some of which are so bizarre as to merit wonderment which in one case is practically universal.
Perhaps just as he couldn't see the wood for the trees you may be stuck in much the same groove? haven't seen much of substance in any of your posts to suggest otherwise.
Makes it all so predictive and boring.
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That was an added extra.
"I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."
That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others
i still don't see the connection between a chat with a lady with a toddler, a vigil and ping gaps.
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Pathfinder did not say that.
Oh ... what did she say, then?
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Pathfinder did not say that.
Thanks Stephen - of course I didn't but Kate did say they went to church on SAT 2 June for private worship. They can look at my posts on the private forum for a lot of this stuff.
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Of course I didn't but Kate did say they went to church on SAT 2 June for private worship. They can look at my posts on the private forum for a lot of this stuff.
It won't stop mccann supporters making things up Pathfinder.
Twisting comments is par for the course from some of them.
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Well, I suppose it changes from being fed to pigs...
Being fed to pigs and being thrown in a skip are both ideas which have been guffawed at on here.
Muriel McKay
Lauryn Dickens
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Thanks Stephen - of course I didn't but Kate did say they went to church on SAT 2 June for private worship. They can look at my posts on the private forum for a lot of this stuff.
You posted this quotation twice ... "I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." and said about it ...
"That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others"
What is "abnormal" about a reference to sleep?? apart from a demonstration of your somewhat bizarre interpretation.
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It won't stop mccann supporters making things up Pathfinder.
Twisting comments is par for the course from some of them.
Deflection?? LOL
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Being fed to pigs and being thrown in a skip are both ideas which have been guffawed at on here.
Muriel McKay
Lauryn Dickens
I don't have time to check into the cases that you're referring to. In either, did any forensic evidence support it?
There was none in the Cipriano case.
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Deflection?? LOL
Par for the course with certain mccann supporters. 8**8:/:
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I don't have time to check into the cases that you're referring to. In either, did any forensic evidence support it?
There was none in the Cipriano case.
I was familiar with Mrs McKay's case at the time.
She was kidnapped for ransom by two brothers who were pig farmers.
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I was familiar with Mrs McKay's case at the time.
She was kidnapped for ransom by two brothers who were pig farmers.
I feel sure Mr. Cameron should be consulted on that one.
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Play nicely, forum rules.
Admin
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I was familiar with Mrs McKay's case at the time.
She was kidnapped for ransom by two brothers who were pig farmers.
Living near Furneaux Pelham at the time so was I. The butchers in Braughing are still supplied by the farm in question - and get fed up with locals asking for "3 pounds of mince and 5 of Mrs McKay".
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I feel sure Mr. Cameron should be consulted on that one.
It is quite a catalogue of errors. Apparently they thought they had kidnapped Rupert Murdoch's wife and Mr McKay used the press in frustration because the police were working to the theory that Mrs McKay had left home of her own volition.
**Snip
The police were suspicious that Alick’s 55-year-old wife may have left her husband and they were angered when Alick called the editor of The Sun newspaper, asking him to run the story the following morning.
Several hours later, Alick received a call from a phone box. “We are Mafia M3,” said the male caller, “We tried to get Rupert Murdoch’s wife. We couldn’t get her so we took yours instead. You have a million by Wednesday night or we will kill her.”
http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/mckay-kidnapping
To this day no trace of Mrs McKay's body has been found, there is no evidence she was fed to the pigs, but there being a plethora of evidence of their involvement in kidnapping her the jury had no doubt they were also guilty of her murder.
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You posted this quotation twice ... "I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days." and said about it ...
"That abnormal statement needs to be looked at in closer detail and I have looked into that suspicious ping gaps weekend. So should others"
What is "abnormal" about a reference to sleep?? apart from a demonstration of your somewhat bizarre interpretation.
How can a parent sleep peacefully when their daughter is still missing and there is no sign of her. The night before she wrote this in her diary.
"Crying in bed again – can’t help it . . . The thought of Madeleine’s fear and pain tears me apart. The thought of paedophiles makes me want to rip my skin off. Surely these people along with psychopaths are not ‘normal’ human beings?" SAT 2 JUNE
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It is quite a catalogue of errors. Apparently they thought they had kidnapped Rupert Murdoch's wife and Mr McKay used the press in frustration because the police were working to the theory that Mrs McKay had left home of her own volition.
**Snip
The police were suspicious that Alick’s 55-year-old wife may have left her husband and they were angered when Alick called the editor of The Sun newspaper, asking him to run the story the following morning.
Several hours later, Alick received a call from a phone box. “We are Mafia M3,” said the male caller, “We tried to get Rupert Murdoch’s wife. We couldn’t get her so we took yours instead. You have a million by Wednesday night or we will kill her.”
http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/mckay-kidnapping
To this day no trace of Mrs McKay's body has been found, there is no evidence she was fed to the pigs, but there being a plethora of evidence of their involvement in kidnapping her the jury had no doubt they were also guilty of her murder.
UK police didn't believe an abduction story? Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs!
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How can a parent sleep peacefully when their daughter is still missing and there is no sign of her. The night before she wrote this in her diary.
"Crying in bed again – can’t help it . . . The thought of Madeleine’s fear and pain tears me apart. The thought of paedophiles makes me want to rip my skin off. Surely these people along with psychopaths are not ‘normal’ human beings?" SAT 2 JUNE
You originally quoted a nice chat with a lady with a toddler.
Perhaps this lady gave her some solace that the worst might not have happened?
ETA: I'm still confused as to your posts concerning a connection with this lady, a vigil and pings.
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You originally quoted a nice chat with a lady with a toddler.
Perhaps this lady gave her some solace that the worst might not have happened?
That refers to the same day so someone may read that and investigate it.
SAT 2 June - crying in bed about her missing daughter and psycho paedos.
SUN 3 June - slept peacefully
Amazing what a day can do.
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That refers to the same day so someone may read that and investigate it.
2 June - crying in bed about her missing daughter and psycho paedos.
3 June - slept peacefully
Amazing what a day can do.
But you also mentioned that she'd chatted to a nice lady with a toddler on 3 June. Again, could this lady have given her some kind of hope that missing children can sometimes be found?
And yet again, what is the connection between this lady that she'd met with a toddler, a vigil and pings?
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But you also mentioned that she'd chatted to a nice lady with a toddler on 3 June. Again, could this lady have given her some kind of hope that missing children can sometimes be found?
And yet again, what is the connection between this lady that she'd met with a toddler, a vigil and pings?
GM wrote that in his blog and for her to contact Kate as she would remember the conversation months later.
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GM wrote that in his blog and for her to contact Kate as she would remember the conversation months later.
And?
ETA: Hang on, your original point was correlating that entry of a lady that Kate had spoken to and the fact that she'd slept well that night (3 June).
If that had been a supportive conversation, perhaps it gave Kate some kind of hope.
But what was your point about linking those two points along with a vigil and pings?
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And?
ETA: Hang on, your original point was correlating that entry of a lady that Kate had spoken to and the fact that she'd slept well that night (3 June).
If that had been a supportive conversation, perhaps it gave Kate some kind of hope.
But what was your point about linking those two points along with a vigil and pings?
That point was not intended for you. I've posted about all this on the private thread so I'm not repeating myself.
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That point was not intended for you. I've posted about all this on the private thread so I'm not repeating myself.
Ok.
So what exactly is the point that you're making on this thread?
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I don't have time to check into the cases that you're referring to. In either, did any forensic evidence support it?
There was none in the Cipriano case.
No
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Being fed to pigs and being thrown in a skip are both ideas which have been guffawed at on here.
Muriel McKay
Lauryn Dickens
As far as I'm aware no one has suggested that Madeleine was thrown in a skip. They have suggested however that *you know who* tossed her into a nearby wheelie bin, which was subsequently taken to the nearest tip and the contents dumped, and eventually buried under 9 years of PdL garbage. Shining In Luz has some very good reasons why this theory is guffaw-able.
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Living near Furneaux Pelham at the time so was I. The butchers in Braughing are still supplied by the farm in question - and get fed up with locals asking for "3 pounds of mince and 5 of Mrs McKay".
Oh dear; wasn't there a murder by shotgun there in recent times too ?
And not too far from Baldock either;
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Oh dear; wasn't there a murder by shotgun there in recent times too ?
And not too far from Baldock either;
I cant recall too many shotgun murders in Baldock in recent years (apart from the usual trigger happy locals after a Saturday night skinful - but that is more accidental death than yer actual murder).
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As far as I'm aware no one has suggested that Madeleine was thrown in a skip. They have suggested however that *you know who* tossed her into a nearby wheelie bin, which was subsequently taken to the nearest tip and the contents dumped, and eventually buried under 9 years of PdL garbage. Shining In Luz has some very good reasons why this theory is guffaw-able.
Are you guffawing because it was suggested by a "sceptic"?
Are you guffawing because it was suggested in this particular case ? or
Are you guffawing because it was suggested and you believe that it could never happen?
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What physical evidence has Amaral found to substantiate any of his theories in either the Cipriano case or the McCann one?
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Are you guffawing because it was suggested by a "sceptic"?
Are you guffawing because it was suggested in this particular case ? or
Are you guffawing because it was suggested and you believe that it could never happen?
First off - have I guffawed? Second off, speak to Shining in Luz regarding why it is highly unlikely to have happened as suggested by the "sceptic". In fact, she posted a detailed rationale of why it was not a plausible scenario so if you're desperate to know the reasons why it's guffaw-able it's all on here somewhere.
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No
There was fingerprint evidence.
**Snip
A Volvo had been spotted repeatedly driving past the cases and the number plate led the police to 34-year-old Arthur Hosein of Rook’s Farm in Stocking Pelham on the Hertfordshire/Essex border. Hosein's fingerprints matched those found on the ransom demands. Police scoured the farm for several weeks but could find no trace of Mrs McKay or of what had happened to her.
http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/mckay-kidnapping/arrest
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I cant recall too many shotgun murders in Baldock in recent years (apart from the usual trigger happy locals after a Saturday night skinful - but that is more accidental death than yer actual murder).
The shotgun murder was at F-P.
Unfortunately the significant bit about Baldock was edited out.
Check out The School for the general drift......oops I doubt I am even allowed to mention its name without being edited. The one at the back of Mansfield Road and alongside Weston Way as I recall 8(0(*
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There was fingerprint evidence.
**Snip
A Volvo had been spotted repeatedly driving past the cases and the number plate led the police to 34-year-old Arthur Hosein of Rook’s Farm in Stocking Pelham on the Hertfordshire/Essex border. Hosein's fingerprints matched those found on the ransom demands. Police scoured the farm for several weeks but could find no trace of Mrs McKay or of what had happened to her.
http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/mckay-kidnapping/arrest
I thought the question posed related to forensics in both cases regarding the victims ? My mistake .
No comment on the other case I mentioned ?
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I thought the question posed related to forensics in both cases regarding the victims ? My mistake .
No comment on the other case I mentioned ?
No.
There is no relevance to Madeleine's case.
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As far as I'm aware no one has suggested that Madeleine was thrown in a skip. They have suggested however that *you know who* tossed her into a nearby wheelie bin, which was subsequently taken to the nearest tip and the contents dumped, and eventually buried under 9 years of PdL garbage. Shining In Luz has some very good reasons why this theory is guffaw-able.
Not quite. SIL's grasp of the rubbish collection arrangements have been questioned.
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Not quite. SIL's grasp of the rubbish collection arrangements have been questioned.
By whom?
I've always found SIL to be someone who works through information to come to her own conclusions.
She also has the advantage of living in the area. If things have changed since the disappearance I'm sure that she can find out.
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By whom?
I've always found SIL to be someone who works through information to come to her own conclusions.
She also has the advantage of living in the area. If things have changed since the disappearance I'm sure that she can find out.
SIL believed that rubbish went straight to landfill and was hand sorted. She thought this meant anything unusual in the waste would have been spotted.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/body-disposal-the-wheelie-bins-defence-case/
That's not what happens to the waste, however, it goes to a transfer station first where it's tipped into a 'hopper' to be compacted. The question remains as to whether the hopper/compactor was there in 2007. The transfer station was.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/madeleine-body-disposal-and-transfer-stations/
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By whom?
I've always found SIL to be someone who works through information to come to her own conclusions.
She also has the advantage of living in the area. If things have changed since the disappearance I'm sure that she can find out.
It is a shame Anne Guedes no longer posts on here as she has local knowledge, and could have provided a second opinion.
Other posters, including me, can only make conjectures.
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By whom?
I've always found SIL to be someone who works through information to come to her own conclusions.
She also has the advantage of living in the area. If things have changed since the disappearance I'm sure that she can find out.
Shining is an asset to the forum. Her local knowledge is invaluable she never posts without having thoroughly checking for primary sources if possible; her research skills are to be envied.
I for one congratulate her tenacity in the work she has carried out particularly on the phone calls https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/page/2/
For the time being, I think I prefer to go with her local knowledge combined with research ... I'm sure if she discovers she is in error about anything, she will let us know.
I remember the conversation which took place regarding disposal of rubbish ... no doubt she will revisit it if she finds anything new to impart.
I know that she is capable of expanding and revisiting posts on her blog. Oh that there were more open minds to match hers among those who involve themselves in Madeleine's case.
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It is a shame Anne Guedes no longer posts on here as she has local knowledge, and could have provided a second opinion.
Other posters, including me, can only make conjectures.
Just to interject on this point, please may I clarify?
Anne Guedes has commented on my blog on my posts on this subject.
I have a policy on comments on my blog, and they are pretty much akin to the rules of this forum. Be civil, no libel etc. If someone does that and posts a comment that contradicts my personal opinion, it gets published. You can find several such comments. My blog is not SIL rules. If you wish to comment then Wordpress, not me, stacks your very first comment up for my explicit approval before it appears. If you then comment again using THE SAME ORIGINATING DETAILS, Wordpress automatically approves it. Should I object to the comment I have to manually take it down.
Spam goes into a spam folder, so may I concentrate on non-spam comments?
The stats to date are simple. 100% of comments received have been published. Not a single one has ever been taken down.
Anne Guedes is not a prolific comment maker on my blog. From her comments, she is of the opinion that the transfer station was a compacting station in 2007. I believe this was based on a phone call to the station. I have no info on when this call was made. I have no info on how the conversation went, what questions were put, or the answers.
She made a comment to the effect that a phone call had established this was a compacting station in 2007. I was happy to allow that comment to remain on my blog. It is still there. You can still see it. I happen to be of the opinion it was not, based on what the site looks like in Google Earth at the time.
This is not a case of is Anne correct or am I correct. It is a case of does it make a difference?
Lots of waste in Luz still goes into the rubbish without being sorted out into recyclables, toxic waste, and 'OK' waste. And it still has to be picked over, by law, to achieve a number of things, notably the removal of toxic waste.
I have yet to see a general waste lorry that does not use compaction at the point of pick-up. Therefore I am in agreement with Anne that such general waste was definitely compacted at at least one point before it's final destination.
Anne and I appear to be in disagreement over whether the transfer station was a compacting station. As I have said, this disagreement is public on my blog, so you can see it for yourself.
The waste was probably compacted at the pick-up point. Whether it was compacted at a transfer station is in issue. However, to conduct the removal of toxic waste requires that it was de-compacted at the dump site, and picked through to take out stuff that was not legal.
Can I prove with 100% certainty that Madeleine did not suffer this fate? No, I clearly can't.
The trigger for the article on my blog was a news story about the body of very, very young child which had been found at the landfill site for the rubbish in southern Lisbon. The report was dark, because it was unclear whether the child's body had been put into rubbish as it was found, decapitated and in bits and pieces. Or whether the body went in whole, and the sorting machinery inflicted the damage.
Could Madeleine have evaded such checks? Yes. But in a civil or criminal court, you would have to place a whole lot more in front of me to get me to vote that it happened.
Based on the information I have, there is no reason to believe that Madeleine died in apartment 5A, and there is no reason to believe that she ended up in a wheelie bin on this side of the Algarve.
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I agree, SIL. We don't know for sure. I think the point is that it was possible, it can't be ruled out. There's no necessity for a death to have occurred in G5A, it could have occurred elsewhere. The other child being there shows it can happen.
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I agree, SIL. We don't know for sure. I think the point is that it was possible, it can't be ruled out. There's no necessity for a death to have occurred in G5A, it could have occurred elsewhere. The other child being there shows it can happen.
Everything is possible and nothing can be ruled out, but this includes dozens of highly unlikely scenarios. Do we seriously have to give equal weight to each one?
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Everything is possible and nothing can be ruled out, but this includes dozens of highly unlikely scenarios. Do we seriously have to give equal weight to each one?
No of course not but one that does have validity, as it has been seen in other crimes, is that the body was placed in a wheelie bin and ended it's journey in landfill.
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Everything is possible and nothing can be ruled out, but this includes dozens of highly unlikely scenarios. Do we seriously have to give equal weight to each one?
Are you saying the rubbish disposal was 'highly unlikely'? Well, let's take the man who entered villas and children's bedrooms. A refuse collection was heard going on in the background, I believe. Now there's someone who may know all about how it works.
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Everything is possible and nothing can be ruled out, but this includes dozens of highly unlikely scenarios. Do we seriously have to give equal weight to each one?
I'm surprised alien abduction hasn't received more attention given the respect sceptics have shown for Richard D Hall
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No of course not but one that does have validity, as it has been seen in other crimes, is that the body was placed in a wheelie bin and ended it's journey in landfill.
a body that was found shortly after ending its journey presumably. Who place it in the bin? Why was it placed there in the first place?
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Are you saying the rubbish disposal was 'highly unlikely'? Well, let's take the man who entered villas and children's bedrooms. A refuse collection was heard going on in the background, I believe. Now there's someone who may know all about how it works.
I'm not sure I follow...
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Everything is possible and nothing can be ruled out, but this includes dozens of highly unlikely scenarios. Do we seriously have to give equal weight to each one?
[/quote
I'm surprised alien abduction hasn't received more attention given the respect sceptics have shown for Richard D Hall
Were she abducted by someone who was not a Portuguese national then by definition it would have abduction by an alien ..................and definitely a possibility.
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a body that was found shortly after ending its journey presumably. Who place it in the bin? Why was it placed there in the first place?
In the case of Eugene Zappata I believe his wife's body was never found. He did however confess to putting her body parts in several large bins.
Who placed them in the bin ? Those guilty of a part in her disappearance.
Why was it placed there in the first place ? As a place of concealment with the hope that it would be found during the searches perhaps ?
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Were she abducted by someone who was not a Portuguese national then by definition it would have abduction by an alien ..................and definitely a possibility.
So you think alien abduction is definitely a possibility.....you are not alone it seems
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I will be deleting Off Topic Posts from now on.
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1) Contribute by your actions to the death of a child then tell me if your resultant psychological condition could be described as sane.
2) The GNR/PJ that night failed in many things. Letting the bins be collected before being properly checked and not checking the nearest landfill site was obviously two of them.
On point 2), I have been woken at 4AM by lorries collecting the rubbish. I think it is easier for them to do it when there is less traffic. I don't know what happened in 2007, since I wasn't here then. So the first requirement would have been searching all 188 bins by tipping out the contents. This on the basis of a missing child, no evidence of a forced entry, and the Tanner sighting.
Is there anything in any other similar crime in which the bins of an entire district were searched in such a manner? If there is, you have to take into account that a man walking could have been in neighbouring villages BY THE TIME THE GNR WAS CALLED. The radius never was restricted to Luz.
As to checking the nearest landfill site - I don't think so. I very much doubt that anyone in the PJ was aware that a single landfill site serviced the entire western half of the Algarve. Anyone following that up would have taken days or weeks to work out what was going on. Think about it. Where is YOUR landfill site?
And ours is NOT restricted to rubbish from Luz. Rubbish from much bigger places including Lagos, Portimão and Albufeira all go on it. Within a day the stuff would have been covered over by tons of rubbish, from far and wide.
If this type of action has been carried out previously, I am not aware of it, so it would be an interesting update. If it hasn't, it remains one of those things that is easy to say, assuming it has not been thought through.
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I do know where my nearest landfill site is. I believe that our general waste is taken straight there after collection (it's very close). if a child was reported missing in my area the same day that the general waste was collected I very much doubt if local police would head straight for the landfill site however.
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I do know where my nearest landfill site is. I believe that our general waste is taken straight there after collection (it's very close). if a child was reported missing in my area the same day that the general waste was collected I very much doubt if local police would head straight for the landfill site however.
I lived in much the same neck of the woods for 30 years and I haven't got a clue where mine was.
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So you think alien abduction is definitely a possibility.....you are not alone it seems
Were the crime committed on Portuguese soil by anyone who was not of Portuguese nationality then it is self evident the crime was committed by an alien.
alien
ˈeɪlɪən/
adjective
adjective: alien
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
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Were the crime committed on Portuguese soil by anyone who was not of Portuguese nationality then it is self evident the crime was committed by an alien.
alien
ˈeɪlɪən/
adjective
adjective: alien
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
I was aware what you were trying to say......you have googled alien...now google synonym
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Were the crime committed on Portuguese soil by anyone who was not of Portuguese nationality then it is self evident the crime was committed by an alien.
alien
ˈeɪlɪən/
adjective
adjective: alien
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
now google alien abduction...which is the precise phrase I used......no mention of foreigners
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I do know where my nearest landfill site is. I believe that our general waste is taken straight there after collection (it's very close). if a child was reported missing in my area the same day that the general waste was collected I very much doubt if local police would head straight for the landfill site however.
And yet we're led to believe that dumping dead kids bodies in bins is not an uncommon occurrence, so why wouldn't it occur to he police to check it out, not necessarily immediately, but say within a day or two of the missing child not turning up?
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In the case of Eugene Zappata I believe his wife's body was never found. He did however confess to putting her body parts in several large bins.
Who placed them in the bin ? Those guilty of a part in her disappearance.
Why was it placed there in the first place ? As a place of concealment with the hope that it would be found during the searches perhaps ?
It seems any response I give to this post will be deleted. Whatever happened the freedom of speech Angelo was tootling on about a few day ago?
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It would help if Off Topic Posts weren't quoted.
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It would help if Off Topic Posts weren't quoted.
It's somewhat galling when responses to off-topic posts are removed but the off-topic post itself isn't. Anyway, I've started a new thread on the subject which has about as much chance of being approved as I have of being selected for the 1500 metres in Rio this year.
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It's somewhat galling when responses to off-topic posts are removed but the off-topic post itself isn't. Anyway, I've started a new thread on the subject which has about as much chance of being approved as I have of being selected for the 1500 metres in Rio this year.
I did delete a large number of them. Sorry I missed that one.
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And yet we're led to believe that dumping dead kids bodies in bins is not an uncommon occurrence, so why wouldn't it occur to he police to check it out, not necessarily immediately, but say within a day or two of the missing child not turning up?
Check what out? Within two days of Madeleine disappearing what Luz rubbish went into landfill was under tons and tons of landfill. Perhaps at some point I'll work out a list of the towns and cities of Barlavento, the western half of the Algarve.
I would be astonished to find Luz contributes as much as 0.5% of the total. The issue is not Luz rubbish. If there was a landfill site devoted to Luz rubbish such a check would have made sense. It is everyone else's rubbish in this half of the Algarve that is the issue.
The day after the disappearance the priority was the Tapas 9 and interviewing staff. The idea that by say, Saturday, they should have stopped this to comb through ton after ton of rubbish does not stand up to scrutiny.
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Check what out? Within two days of Madeleine disappearing what Luz rubbish went into landfill was under tons and tons of landfill. Perhaps at some point I'll work out a list of the towns and cities of Barlavento, the western half of the Algarve.
I would be astonished to find Luz contributes as much as 0.5% of the total. The issue is not Luz rubbish. If there was a landfill site devoted to Luz rubbish such a check would have made sense. It is everyone else's rubbish in this half of the Algarve that is the issue.
The day after the disappearance the priority was the Tapas 9 and interviewing staff. The idea that by say, Saturday, they should have stopped this to comb through ton after ton of rubbish does not stand up to scrutiny.
So how many tons of rubbish get dumped at the local landfill each day? As much as 1600 tons maybe, as in this landfill?http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Lost-Wedding-Ring-Tossed-Out-With-Trash---Found-Day-Later-At-Landfill-326808241.html
It didn't stop the woman who lost her ring going to the landfill site to search for it, she had a lucky break too, whose to say the police wouldn't have had similar success, seeing as how dumping bodies in bins is apparently a not uncommon method of body disposal. And think how quickly they'd have found it had they deployed dogs such as the marvellous Eddie! It would have taken him mere minutes, if not seconds.
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This may put it in better perspective:
>>>>>>snip However, there was a glimmer of hope. A recent storm damaged trees in Olson-Triplett's neighborhood and the truck that picked up her trash also picked up branches. Because of the extra pick ups, the truck ran behind schedule and by the time it arrived at the landfill, the landfill was closed. The truck hadn't been dumped yet.
Wednesday morning, Olson-Triplett and her husband rushed to the landfill and met the refuse workers who were preparing to dump nearly five tons of trash off the truck. Olson-Triplett kept her eyes open for her distinctive garbage bags: white with black ties. She said the moment she saw the bags, she started screaming. She said: "I knew those were our trash bags."
There were three bags in total. The first was nothing but trash. However, as soon as Olson-Triplett opened the second bag, her wedding ring fell to the ground. She fell on her knees and cried tears of joy. Now, whenever she looks at her ring, she will remember to always believe in miracles. She said: "This is a symbol miracles happen. Don't ever give up faith. No matter what, don't ever give up faith." <<<<<<< snip
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This may put it in better perspective:
>>>>>>snip However, there was a glimmer of hope. A recent storm damaged trees in Olson-Triplett's neighborhood and the truck that picked up her trash also picked up branches. Because of the extra pick ups, the truck ran behind schedule and by the time it arrived at the landfill, the landfill was closed. The truck hadn't been dumped yet.
Wednesday morning, Olson-Triplett and her husband rushed to the landfill and met the refuse workers who were preparing to dump nearly five tons of trash off the truck. Olson-Triplett kept her eyes open for her distinctive garbage bags: white with black ties. She said the moment she saw the bags, she started screaming. She said: "I knew those were our trash bags."
There were three bags in total. The first was nothing but trash. However, as soon as Olson-Triplett opened the second bag, her wedding ring fell to the ground. She fell on her knees and cried tears of joy. Now, whenever she looks at her ring, she will remember to always believe in miracles. She said: "This is a symbol miracles happen. Don't ever give up faith. No matter what, don't ever give up faith." <<<<<<< snip
What was the point of that? Completely off topic. My point was that the woman went to the landfill to look for her ring, she didn't know in advance that the dump trucks hadn't dumped, she still went. I can post numerous links to police searches of landfills, some of which turned up dead bodies some of which didn't. What sort of police force says to itself "there's no point looking there, we'll never find it"? A defeatist and / or lazy police force that's what sort!
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So how many tons of rubbish get dumped at the local landfill each day? As much as 1600 tons maybe, as in this landfill?http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Lost-Wedding-Ring-Tossed-Out-With-Trash---Found-Day-Later-At-Landfill-326808241.html
It didn't stop the woman who lost her ring going to the landfill site to search for it, she had a lucky break too, whose to say the police wouldn't have had similar success, seeing as how dumping bodies in bins is apparently a not uncommon method of body disposal. And think how quickly they'd have found it had they deployed dogs such as the marvellous Eddie! It would have taken him mere minutes, if not seconds.
Please consider sending your CV to Disney. I think you have the type of imagination they might welcome.
Let's consider the facts. Fact, they didn't have a dog like Eddie, otherwise what was the point of shifting Eddie from the UK to Portugal?
Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?
However, you seem to be suggesting that, as Madeleine is worth more than a wedding ring, the McCanns should have sprinted to our landfill site to check this angle out. Positively remiss of them not to do so.
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Please consider sending your CV to Disney. I think you have the type of imagination they might welcome.
Let's consider the facts. Fact, they didn't have a dog like Eddie, otherwise what was the point of shifting Eddie from the UK to Portugal?
Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?
However, you seem to be suggesting that, as Madeleine is worth more than a wedding ring, the McCanns should have sprinted to our landfill site to check this angle out. Positively remiss of them not to do so.
Alfred was suggesting that The Police should have done this.
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Please consider sending your CV to Disney. I think you have the type of imagination they might welcome.
Let's consider the facts. Fact, they didn't have a dog like Eddie, otherwise what was the point of shifting Eddie from the UK to Portugal?
Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?
However, you seem to be suggesting that, as Madeleine is worth more than a wedding ring, the McCanns should have sprinted to our landfill site to check this angle out. Positively remiss of them not to do so.
Christ. Where to begin with this diatribe?!
1) Your insult re: Disney and my imagination is noted, many thanks for that.
2) If they didn't have a dog what was preventing them from getting a dog? Why does Portugal not have a single cadaver dog? No bodies to find? any old dog can find a dead body, it's no biggie.
3) Why are dead pigs sent to landfill? I thought pigs were used for turning into food, and that once they had been turned into food super Eddie dogs didn't alert to them, or is that wrong? So Portuguese landfills are full of dead pigs, well you learn something every day. Maybe that explains why if the abductor worked at the local landfill the apartment reeked of pig cadaver and the dog alerted.
4) I suggest you google "body found at landfill". There are dozens of examples. There is no excuse for the police NOT to have pursued this line of enquiry, so stop making excuses for them, it's a bit sad.
5) are you seriously suggesting that the parents of a missing child scrabble about at the local landfill site in the hope of uncovering the corpse of their dead child? Would that have been the recommended course of action by the police and the local landfill workers? Would it be the kind of experience you'd be prepared to subject yourself to?
Your post has absolutely astonished me. I thought you were vaguely reasonable, but wow....
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Alfred was suggesting that The Police should have done this.
He was, I believe. I simply pointed out that the equivalent involves the McCanns worrying about this, which Kate's book says was a concern, and not taking the same action as someone worried about something much less valuable.
His viewpoint falls into the category of 'experts' who insist all 188 bins should have been tipped out and searched. And every coffin in Luz undergoing cremation should have been searched for an extra body. We have also been through the ideas that Luz should have been sealed off, and the borders of Portugal should have been sealed off.
Now has been added that a dog the Portuguese didn't have should have been deployed. And instead of focussing on getting information at the incident scene, the officers should have instead been at the landfill site.
All of this when I have made it perfectly clear that what was going into landfill was already being checked in considerable detail.
This reminds me of the way that tabloids report the case. Reality is not permitted to interfere with imagination.
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What was the point of that? Completely off topic. My point was that the woman went to the landfill to look for her ring, she didn't know in advance that the dump trucks hadn't dumped, she still went. I can post numerous links to police searches of landfills, some of which turned up dead bodies some of which didn't. What sort of police force says to itself "there's no point looking there, we'll never find it"? A defeatist and / or lazy police force that's what sort!
I am only quoting from the link you posted.
So your link was off topic?
Why post the link in the first place then?
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He was, I believe. I simply pointed out that the equivalent involves the McCanns worrying about this, which Kate's book says was a concern, and not taking the same action as someone worried about something much less valuable.
His viewpoint falls into the category of 'experts' who insist all 188 bins should have been tipped out and searched. And every coffin in Luz undergoing cremation should have been searched for an extra body. We have also been through the ideas that Luz should have been sealed off, and the borders of Portugal should have been sealed off.
Now has been added that a dog the Portuguese didn't have should have been deployed. And instead of focussing on getting information at the incident scene, the officers should have instead been at the landfill site.
All of this when I have made it perfectly clear that what was going into landfill was already being checked in considerable detail.
This reminds me of the way that tabloids report the case. Reality is not permitted to interfere with imagination.
So in your view the police were quite within their rights not to bother searching landfill for. body because it would have been too hard? What do you make of British police's month long efforts to find the remains of April Jones over a much larger and more challenging terrain than a confined landfill site? were they wrong to put in the time and effort? Same with Alice Gross - weeks of searching canal and towpath, eventually resulting in the discovery of her body, ridiculous waste of manpower? Why shouldn't the Portuguese police have expended the same amount of energy looking for Madeleine's body? Was it because she wasn't Portuguese? Or what?
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I am only quoting from the link you posted.
So your link was off topic?
Why post the link in the first place then?
No, my link wasn't off topic, it provided the source material for my on-topic post, kimdly desist from trolling my posts again (yes, that probably cost me 10 points, but never mind, eh?)
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Christ. Where to begin with this diatribe?!
1) Your insult re: Disney and my imagination is noted, many thanks for that.
2) If they didn't have a dog what was preventing them from getting a dog? Why does Portugal not have a single cadaver dog? No bodies to find? any old dog can find a dead body, it's no biggie.
3) Why are dead pigs sent to landfill? I thought pigs were used for turning into food, and that once they had been turned into food super Eddie dogs didn't alert to them, or is that wrong? So Portuguese landfills are full of dead pigs, well you learn something every day. Maybe that explains why if the abductor worked at the local landfill the apartment reeked of pig cadaver and the dog alerted.
4) I suggest you google "body found at landfill". There are dozens of examples. There is no excuse for the police NOT to have pursued this line of enquiry, so stop making excuses for them, it's a bit sad.
5) are you seriously suggesting that the parents of a missing child scrabble about at the local landfill site in the hope of uncovering the corpse of their dead child? Would that have been the recommended course of action by the police and the local landfill workers? Would it be the kind of experience you'd be prepared to subject yourself to?
Your post has absolutely astonished me. I thought you were vaguely reasonable, but wow....
Where to begin re this diatribe.
What on Earth makes you think they had an Eddie type dog and did NOT deploy it? That idea defines crazy.
If you think there is no uneaten, dead pig going into landfill, you need to check almost any rubbish bin.
If you can show any evidence WHATSOEVER that the police was aware of how rubbish was processed on the Algarve, then cite it. I have shown that it is quite difficult to find out how the rubbish is processed. So it is over to you to show HOW the police would have implemented this response. Simply asserting it should have been done is hot air, nothing more.
You used the parents at landfill example as support for your argument. I am not suggesting the parents should have been at the landfill site for exactly the same reason that applies to the police. They would not have been aware of it. If you choose to bash the PJ over this, you are, whether you like it or not, bashing the McCanns. I prefer to bash neither.
I am a lot more reasonable than vaguely, thank you. I sit in a world where every armchair expert appears to feel free to denigrate what happened in my neck of the woods, without any reality check.
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So in your view the police were quite within their rights not to bother searching landfill for. body because it would have been too hard? What do you make of British police's month long efforts to find the remains of April Jones over a much larger and more challenging terrain than a confined landfill site? were they wrong to put in the time and effort? Same with Alice Gross - weeks of searching canal and towpath, eventually resulting in the discovery of her body, ridiculous waste of manpower? Why shouldn't the Portuguese police have expended the same amount of energy looking for Madeleine's body? Was it because she wasn't Portuguese? Or what?
This bears no relation to what I said. At no time did I say police were within the rights because it was too hard. I said I have no reason to believe the police actually knew what happened to the rubbish after pick-up.
If you have ANY evidence they did, then cite it.
I have no interest or knowledge of April Jones or Alice Gross, therefore I have no interest in doing case comparisons. Instead, I will do a simple resource comparison. On a population basis, the UK is about 6 times larger than Portugal, so it should be able to expend about 6 times, on average, what the Portuguese can put in. To expect otherwise is the same as expecting - Portugal should have had an Eddie type dog, Portugal should have had a DNA database, Portugal should have had a CSI manual. It didn't have any of these, consequently anyone requiring these is out of touch with reality.
I don't know the total manpower or cost that has now been expended by Portugal in the search for Madeleine. But between the original investigation, the Oporto investigation, and support for Operation Grange, the Portuguese taxpayers, at a time when the country is in severe financial crisis, have forked out a large sum, significantly larger than has been expended on any single Portuguese child.
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Where to begin re this diatribe.
Let's begin at the beginning.
What on Earth makes you think they had an Eddie type dog and did NOT deploy it? That idea defines crazy.
I did not say that - please re-read. I asked why DON'T they have VRDs? Is there no call for them in Portugal? I fully accept that no such beast resided in Portugal in 2007 but if the authorities were able to call upon the services of Eddie the Wonder Dog in August, then why not in May? Even if it was not such the wonderful, infallible specimen as Eddie, a second-rate VRD would have been better than nowt surely?
If you think there is no uneaten, dead pig going into landfill, you need to check almost any rubbish bin.
Again you appear to have completely misunderstood my post. There is a difference (or so I've been led to believe) between a dead pig and pork and pig based food products. The super dog will alert to the former but not the latter. That being the case, if the landfill was filled with pig carcasses then, yes very confusing for the dog, however if it is filled with discarded ham sandwiches, then it's no problem whatsoever for the super sniffer. Right? Or wrong?
If you can show any evidence WHATSOEVER that the police was aware of how rubbish was processed on the Algarve, then cite it. I have shown that it is quite difficult to find out how the rubbish is processed. So it is over to you to show HOW the police would have implemented this response. Simply asserting it should have been done is hot air, nothing more.
This is absurd logic. Why do I have to cite evidence of what the police did or did not know about rubbish processing in the Algarve in 2007? It's completely beside the point. In any case I thought police investigators were supposed to find stuff out about stuff, and if they didn't know something that may be relevant that they damn well did their best to find out about it. So, they knew nothing about rubbish processing and for that reason we must excuse them for not pursuing this line of enquiry? are you SERIOUS??! You think the police were perfectly justified in not searching rubbish tips because they didn't know about rubbish processing - REALLY??!
You used the parents at landfill example as support for your argument. I am not suggesting the parents should have been at the landfill site for exactly the same reason that applies to the police. They would not have been aware of it. If you choose to bash the PJ over this, you are, whether you like it or not, bashing the McCanns. I prefer to bash neither
.Harking back to my answer above, I can see no reason whatsoever why the police shouldn't have considered the fact that Madeleine's body may have ended up at the local landfill. As I have said before, it's not unheard of - there are dozens of examples - a baby found in a bag being just one of many examples. I simply don't understand your passionate defence of the PJ on this matter- is this a personal thing for you?
I am a lot more reasonable than vaguely, thank you. I sit in a world where every armchair expert appears to feel free to denigrate what happened in my neck of the woods, without any reality check.
Just because you live there doesn't mean that your opinions and thought processes on this matter are better informed and superior to mine. Just saying like...
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This is getting a bit heated.
I actually agree with some points from both SIL and Alfie. 8()-000(
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This is getting a bit heated.
I actually agree with some points from both SIL and Alfie. 8()-000(
Agreed. Let's cool it a bit, please.
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Where to begin re this diatribe.
What on Earth makes you think they had an Eddie type dog and did NOT deploy it? That idea defines crazy.
If you think there is no uneaten, dead pig going into landfill, you need to check almost any rubbish bin.
If you can show any evidence WHATSOEVER that the police was aware of how rubbish was processed on the Algarve, then cite it. I have shown that it is quite difficult to find out how the rubbish is processed. So it is over to you to show HOW the police would have implemented this response. Simply asserting it should have been done is hot air, nothing more.
You used the parents at landfill example as support for your argument. I am not suggesting the parents should have been at the landfill site for exactly the same reason that applies to the police. They would not have been aware of it. If you choose to bash the PJ over this, you are, whether you like it or not, bashing the McCanns. I prefer to bash neither.
I am a lot more reasonable than vaguely, thank you. I sit in a world where every armchair expert appears to feel free to denigrate what happened in my neck of the woods, without any reality check.
Eddie doesn't alert to household pork waste in bins. And what's so peculiar about not letting 188 bins leave without first being properly emptied and checked. If she was murdered and hidden in a bin then at least you can rule that out from the start and not talk about the possibility years later.
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This is getting a bit heated.
I actually agree with some points from both SIL and Alfie. 8()-000(
That's fine. It helps though if one is not accused of having an imagination worthy of Disney or that my ideas are "crazy". Nothing I haver written is remotely fantastical, but all 100% grounded in reality. What I still do not comprehend is why we should apparently be complacent about the Portuguese Police's obvious failings. It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance. Excuses like "how were the police supposed to know how landfill waste processing worked" are lame to say the very least.
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That's fine. It helps though if one is not accused of having an imagination worthy of a Disney movie. Nothing I haver written is remotely fantastical, but all 100% grounded in reality. What I still do not comprehend is why we should apparently be complacent about the Portuguese Police's obvious failings. It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance. Excuses like "how were the police supposed to know how landfill waste processing worked" are lame to say the very least.
' It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.'
Justify that statement, as all that it is, is a personal opinion.
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' It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.'
Justify that statement, as all that it is, is a personal opinion.
It is a personal opinion, based on the facts and also when compared to other searches for missing children, that have gone on for weeks and weeks.
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That's fine. It helps though if one is not accused of having an imagination worthy of Disney or that my ideas are "crazy". Nothing I haver written is remotely fantastical, but all 100% grounded in reality. What I still do not comprehend is why we should apparently be complacent about the Portuguese Police's obvious failings. It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance. Excuses like "how were the police supposed to know how landfill waste processing worked" are lame to say the very least.
I wouldn't say that was altogether fair. I agree, efforts to find a body might have been more rigorous, but efforts to find a living missing little girl were extensive and (in my view) commendable.
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It is a personal opinion, based on the facts and also when compared to other searches for missing children, that have gone on for weeks and weeks.
What facts Alfred.
Not only was Madeleine searched for by the Police, many locals and holidaymakers joined in the search as well, as you well know, and no trace of her was found, AS REMAINS THE CASE.
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Let's begin at the beginning.
I did not say that - please re-read. I asked why DON'T they have VRDs? Is there no call for them in Portugal? I fully accept that no such beast resided in Portugal in 2007 but if the authorities were able to call upon the services of Eddie the Wonder Dog in August, then why not in May? Even if it was not such the wonderful, infallible specimen as Eddie, a second-rate VRD would have been better than nowt surely?Again you appear to have completely misunderstood my post. There is a difference (or so I've been led to believe) between a dead pig and pork and pig based food products. The super dog will alert to the former but not the latter. That being the case, if the landfill was filled with pig carcasses then, yes very confusing for the dog, however if it is filled with discarded ham sandwiches, then it's no problem whatsoever for the super sniffer. Right? Or wrong?
This is absurd logic. Why do I have to cite evidence of what the police did or did not know about rubbish processing in the Algarve in 2007? It's completely beside the point. In any case I thought police investigators were supposed to find stuff out about stuff, and if they didn't know something that may be relevant that they damn well did their best to find out about it. So, they knew nothing about rubbish processing and for that reason we must excuse them for not pursuing this line of enquiry? are you SERIOUS??! You think the police were perfectly justified in not searching rubbish tips because they didn't know about rubbish processing - REALLY??!
.Harking back to my answer above, I can see no reason whatsoever why the police shouldn't have considered the fact that Madeleine's body may have ended up at the local landfill. As I have said before, it's not unheard of - there are dozens of examples - a baby found in a bag being just one of many examples. I simply don't understand your passionate defence of the PJ on this matter- is this a personal thing for you?
Just because you live there doesn't mean that your opinions and thought processes on this matter are better informed and superior to mine. Just saying like...
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
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Eddie doesn't alert to household pork waste in bins. And what's so peculiar about not letting 188 bins leave without first being properly emptied and checked. If she was murdered and hidden in a bin then at least you can rule that out from the start and not talk about the possibility years later.
I think I am going to take myself off to lie in a darkened room for a bit ... I am actually in accordance with Pathfinder on this. Horrible, messy job that it might have been, why would it have been so difficult to stop the rubbish uplift and empty the bins? 188 isn't really all that many when measured against the numbers of professional and volunteer searchers who turned out.
Teams could have been organised under the control of a professional police officer. I think it would have been a useful deployment of personnel ... and as PF states it eliminates an obvious possibility.
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In fairness, one of the few things Amaral got right is that the investigation, before the English arrived, was for a little girl assumed alive.
Against that, we know what abductors, all too often, do to their hapless child-victims ....
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
I have seen it in print that British dogs were on offer but it is difficult to trace now. For example the search engine throws up ...
The Eddie and Keela Searches/Videos - McCann Files
www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
The McCanns' First Interviews 25 May 2007 · McCanns' ...... British police dog handlers had offered expertise to Portuguese authorities in May. They were only ...
When the link is followed I can find no mention of the offer made in May.
**Snip
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family’s holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
A senior UK police source said: “It is an absolute scandal — time is fast running out for this little girl.
“These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
“The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
“You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance.”
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
But the source warned: “They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/230278/Maddie-hunt-Send-in-dogs.html
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In fairness, one of the few things Amaral got right is that the investigation, before the English arrived, was for a little girl assumed alive.
Against that, we know what abductors, all too often, do to their hapless child-victims ....
Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
Sundays are too short to reply to this perplexing post in full. I do however wish you'd stop asking for cites for things I haven't said. "If Portuguese police were unaware that cadaver dogs as a tool for finding human remains existed in 2007 then perhaps you could provide me with a cite for that" - do you see how absurd that request is? It is the police's job to know about these things and even if they did have the resources instantly at their disposal to at least make attempts to secure them as soon as possible. I will come back to the rest of your facetious post later.
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Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?
The more pertinent question is where it leaves abductor-deniers ....
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What facts Alfred.
Not only was Madeleine searched for by the Police, many locals and holidaymakers joined in the search as well, as you well know, and no trace of her was found, AS REMAINS THE CASE.
And your point is? How many days did the police spend searching for Madeleine, alive or dead, in the aftermath of her disappearance? Did they really follow every lead diligently? Did they really leave every stone unturned? In my opinion they did not. So you disagree, fine.
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
You asked for an example of dogs searching landfill sites for bodies. Here is one from 2012. I hope it will be acceptable to you:
http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20120508/NEWS/120509374
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I think I am going to take myself off to lie in a darkened room for a bit ... I am actually in accordance with Pathfinder on this. Horrible, messy job that it might have been, why would it have been so difficult to stop the rubbish uplift and empty the bins? 188 isn't really all that many when measured against the numbers of professional and volunteer searchers who turned out.
Teams could have been organised under the control of a professional police officer. I think it would have been a useful deployment of personnel ... and as PF states it eliminates an obvious possibility.
Some bins can only be emptied and searched properly by specialist lorries from the waste processing organisation, operated by people trained to use the equipment. So to have done this faster required agreeing the loaning of such resources faster.
It would have been possible, with considerable effort, to tip out the green wheelie bins, thereby requiring that at the end, all the rubbish would have to have been restored to the bins. Lovely.
It is possible to open the underground cylinder type bins. Searching that would require getting in and sifting through whatever was in there. IMO, it is impossible to search a nearly full container in that manner, unless you chuck most of the waste out, requiring of course that you chuck it all back in again at the end.
There is a third type, like brown cubes. These can only be opened by specialist equipment that lifts them up over the back of a lorry, then the bottom is unhinged to let the waste fall into the lorry. Then a proper search means getting into the back of the lorry and have a good rummage through.
I don't know for certain what the volunteers were looking for during the period they searched. If anyone knows whether they were looking for a live but missing child or a potentially dead child, or both, kindly bring this information to the table.
What I doubt is that the volunteers were willing to conduct the sort of messy checks I have described. Personally, I would stop short of this, but that is me.
And while everyone seems to be obsessed with the 188 bins of Luz, I would have to ask why?
By the time the PJ first turned up at 5A, a person on foot walking at normal pace could be 10 miles away. What's wrong with the bins of Espiche, Almádena, Burgau, Lagos and Odiaxere?
Actually, I've just checked Google Earth on a whim, and it seems such a guy on foot could be at or near one of the barragems, or within an hour of the landfill site, both much better places for body disposal.
That's on foot, no car for some reason, by the time the PJ arrived at 5A.
I must confess I never thought about her going into the landfill by a method other than the bins. Now I'll have to find out if the perimeter of the landfill site is secure.
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Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?
as long as there is no proof of their not being an abductor then your question is irrelevant
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
You said earlier: "Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?"
Did you mean dead pigs or pork?
Eddie will apparently only alert to the former. That being the case, the point you aseem to be trying to make is either 1) that Portuguese landfill sites do habitually contain pig carcasses and so any attempt to sniff out a body would be futile or 2) that the pork products that are in the landfill would confuse the dog, the dog that apparently doesn't alert to cooked pig. Do you understand now?
ETA: did I ever state that there were landfill sites composed entirely of ham sandwiches, or was that just a silly facetious comment on your part?
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
What is this thing that the police knew nothing of that you keep going on about, and why would it have prevented them considering the possibility that Madeleine's body had ended up on a landfill site?
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
Would it have perhaps been a good idea for the police to put local landfill site sorters on high alert for the possible presence of a missing child's body amongst the garbage? Any evidence that they did?
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The thread was about Sr Amaral.
It seems to have morphed into a waste management thread.
Check out:
Directive 1999/31/EC
This directive, of course, has to be enacted in each member state by the laws of those states.
Then it starts to get a bit complicated and unless you are an expert on waste disposal and how Portugal enacted the 1999 directive you are p*****g in the wind.
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If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not. Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not. Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.
The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems. I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare. If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.
If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence. I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches. If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.
Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of? Yes, I do. How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?
I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May. I was far from convinced on that check. I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter. So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.
Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me. Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.
At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation. The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities. There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere. Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching? Yes, they were.
The baby found in the rubbish supports this. A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage. Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.
My defence of the PJ on this is simple. They do not deserve criticism on this point. The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas. It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.
You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.
My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.
My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.
There is nothing fanciful about anything I have written. The police should (IMO) at least have considered the possibility that Madeleine's body had ended up in the local landfill site and made some effort to ascertain if that's what happened. If this is fanciful of me, well that's your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it, however I would point out that it is not at all beyond the bounds of possibility that her body did end up in landfill, and nor that it would have been impossible for anyone (especially the police) to recover it.
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The thread was about Sr Amaral.
It seems to have morphed into a waste management thread.
Check out:
Directive 1999/31/EC
This directive, of course, has to be enacted in each member state by the laws of those states.
Then it starts to get a bit complicated and unless you are an expert on waste disposal and how Portugal enacted the 1999 directive you are p*****g in the wind.
Thanks for your input, excellent as always. 8@??)(
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Another example
Police use sniffer dogs at landfill site to looking for missing baby
http://www.christianpost.com/news/zion-baby-police-use-sniffer-dogs-to-search-landfill-site-for-5-month-old-joshua-summeries-video-102969/
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Another landfill search with dogs, to find a murder weapon
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/2314413/Police-hunt-for-Martyn-Barclay-murder-weapon.html
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Another landfill site searched by police with dogs. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-21/qld-police-and-ses-to-sift-through-rubbish-in-search-for-body/5337590
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In 1973 dogs led police to the bodies of 2 boys rolled in a carpet buried in 20ft of garbage at the dump they were hidden in.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FLIFCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=police+use+dogs+to+search+rubbish+tip+for+body&source=bl&ots=9p9GAG6DKD&sig=6DVDQbC_sbk0APz2wwwKTBAWKrw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhOzQiebKAhUFPxoKHUJKCIUQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=police%20use%20dogs%20to%20search%20rubbish%20tip%20for%20body&f=false
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Amore recent example of police and dogs conducting a search of a rubbish dump in an attempt to find a missing man http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/74728305/Roigard-Murder-Trial-Scale-of-search-for-missing-man-outlined-in-court
Any more examples needed? Perhaps we can now put to bed the idea that police searching a landfill site looking for a missing person is such a fanciful one after all...?
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I have seen it in print that British dogs were on offer but it is difficult to trace now. For example the search engine throws up ...
The Eddie and Keela Searches/Videos - McCann Files
www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
The McCanns' First Interviews 25 May 2007 · McCanns' ...... British police dog handlers had offered expertise to Portuguese authorities in May. They were only ...
When the link is followed I can find no mention of the offer made in May.
**Snip
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family’s holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
A senior UK police source said: “It is an absolute scandal — time is fast running out for this little girl.
“These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
“The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
“You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance.”
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
But the source warned: “They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/230278/Maddie-hunt-Send-in-dogs.html
Thank you for this Brietta.
I am not overly keen on the source and the comment re a 28-day time frame does not appear to match up with what is claimed for Eddie and Keela.
However, on balance, it does appear that an offer of specialist dogs was made, one was quite possibly Keela, and the discussion of the offer is around 20 days after Madeleine disappeared, hence within May 2007. Further, the wording suggests the offer was made a fair time before this 20-day-after point in time.
I am now wondering if 'superdogs' were offered, why Amaral chose not to deploy them at the time. Put aside for a moment whether one thinks he was hunting the McCanns or on a wider mission statement.
I am not thinking about deploying them on the Barlavento landfill site. I am thinking about why they were not deployed in apartment 5A to try to establish whether something more sinister than a disappearance had occurred there.
Do we know who Amaral's superior was? I'd be interested to know if people at Amaral's level, AND ABOVE, were aware of the superdogs capability and the apparent offer to deploy them.
Now it's getting a bit complex. Do we know if Leicestershire Police were aware these dogs could be deployed? Was CEOP aware these dogs could be deployed?
Was no-one banging on Amaral's door to pass this information on? Or was the banging occurring but being ignored?
Very interesting stuff, so my thanks again.
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Sundays are too short to reply to this perplexing post in full. I do however wish you'd stop asking for cites for things I haven't said. "If Portuguese police were unaware that cadaver dogs as a tool for finding human remains existed in 2007 then perhaps you could provide me with a cite for that" - do you see how absurd that request is? It is the police's job to know about these things and even if they did have the resources instantly at their disposal to at least make attempts to secure them as soon as possible. I will come back to the rest of your facetious post later.
I can indeed see why the part you have placed in quote marks is absurd, which I why I did not say it. You did.
You raised it for this first time in the post to which I am replying. Why you are making up an absurd request, putting it in quote marks, then saying the request is absurd appears to have no relevance to anything, so I'll leave you to your absurdity puzzle.
Your missing a not, as in´'did not have the resources instantly at their disposal', but I would guess most people got the gist of that part.
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That's enough, you two. Thank You.
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You asked for an example of dogs searching landfill sites for bodies. Here is one from 2012. I hope it will be acceptable to you:
http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20120508/NEWS/120509374
Thank you for this. It provides a starting point that I did not have before.
At the moment, it does not say whether the planned deployment was successful. By successful, I do not mean the bodies were found, I simply mean whether the dogs were able to work 'professionally' in such an environment.
It also appears to give an indication of the difficulty in searching a landfill site, and the resources required for such a search.
I wonder if I can work this up into the resources that would have been needed to search Barlavento?
Jolly good stuff, thank you again.
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I can indeed see why the part you have placed in quote marks is absurd, which I why I did not say it. You did.
You raised it for this first time in the post to which I am replying. Why you are making up an absurd request, putting it in quote marks, then saying the request is absurd appears to have no relevance to anything, so I'll leave you to your absurdity puzzle.
Your missing a not, as in´'did not have the resources instantly at their disposal', but I would guess most people got the gist of that part.
I really don't think you and I are on the same wavelength are we? Never mind. Thanks for pointing out the grammatical error, there's one in your first sentence above so let me repay the favour - I think you meant to write "is" instead of "I" but then perhaps you didn't. Who knows really...? &%+((£
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Thank you for this. It provides a starting point that I did not have before.
At the moment, it does not say whether the planned deployment was successful. By successful, I do not mean the bodies were found, I simply mean whether the dogs were able to work 'professionally' in such an environment.
It also appears to give an indication of the difficulty in searching a landfill site, and the resources required for such a search.
I wonder if I can work this up into the resources that would have been needed to search Barlavento?
Jolly good stuff, thank you again.
You're welcome - I believe I posted 5 other examples for you to work on as well.
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You said earlier: "Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?"
Did you mean dead pigs or pork?
Eddie will apparently only alert to the former. That being the case, the point you aseem to be trying to make is either 1) that Portuguese landfill sites do habitually contain pig carcasses and so any attempt to sniff out a body would be futile or 2) that the pork products that are in the landfill would confuse the dog, the dog that apparently doesn't alert to cooked pig. Do you understand now?
ETA: did I ever state that there were landfill sites composed entirely of ham sandwiches, or was that just a silly facetious comment on your part?
Pork is dead pig. It is not live pig, it is dead. Eddie was trained on dead pig, and unless something very odd was going on with Eddie's training, that must have continued beyond his early days, in the absence of human body farms in the UK.
As Eddie appears to have alerted to dead pig, he appears to have alerted to pork. It is claimed that he did not alert to cooked pork. I am making a working assumption that he did not alert to live pigs.
I made no claim whatsoever that Eddie alerted to cooked pork. I made it crystal clear that I was talking about uncooked pork (still dead by the way). You are asserting that I talked about cooked pork, and the amount of cooked pork in the landfill site. At no time did I come close to stating that cooked pork in a landfill site might confuse Eddie.
You transformed my phrase 'dead pig' into 'pig carcasses' which I did not say, and invented the concept of one or more landfill sites stuffed with pig carcasses. This was a fanciful invention, that came from you. Personally, I cannot think of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases. Do they do that in an outbreak of swine flu?
You also invented the concept of landfill sites consisting entirely of ham sandwiches. I cannot remember if it was one landfill site, or landfill sites plural. If you really cannot remember your invention of such a concept, I seriously suggest you may wish to get your memory checked. A single landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches is not something I would forget, if I had invented it.
Do I understand now?
Well, despite it appearing that some members of the forum think the exchange has been a little heated, I am firmly convinced that my understanding of things has gone forward a fair bit. My thanks to all the members, including yourself, who have provided useful information to bring to the situation.
I suppose I should trot off and get the oven going. I think I am cooking a dead pig joint, aka a pork joint, for dinner tonight. I would not like to leave it to the stage we need to throw our piece of dead pig into the waste, and have this uncooked pork ending up in the Barlavento landfill.
After that it is choices, choices. Gravy or cauliflower in a cheese sauce? Off topic I know. Will this comment get pruned?
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I stand to be corrected.
But I think (the late) Eddie (RIP) might (have) react(ed) to a leg of pork (cooked or uncooked).
What he (or any other cadaver dog) would not react to is something like bacon, because of the way it is processed which kills the scent.
Have I got that wrong?
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Amore recent example of police and dogs conducting a search of a rubbish dump in an attempt to find a missing man http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/74728305/Roigard-Murder-Trial-Scale-of-search-for-missing-man-outlined-in-court
Any more examples needed? Perhaps we can now put to bed the idea that police searching a landfill site looking for a missing person is such a fanciful one after all...?
Pretty good these dogs. 8(0(*
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Eddie alerted to ungutted pig. One that had been left to decompose with all its innards intact. Much like a human corpse.
This has nothing to do with butchered pig.
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I stand to be corrected.
But I think (the late) Eddie (RIP) might (have) react(ed) to a leg of pork (cooked or uncooked).
What he (or any other cadaver dog) would not react to is something like bacon, because of the way it is processed which kills the scent.
Have I got that wrong?
Yes.
Dead pig, with all of the viscera.
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Eddie alerted to ungutted pig. One that had been left to decompose with all its innards intact. Much like a human corpse.
This has nothing to do with butchered pig.
Beat me to it.
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Beat me to it.
Snap, Slarti. I'm just surprised that this hasn't occurred to some.
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What is this thing that the police knew nothing of that you keep going on about, and why would it have prevented them considering the possibility that Madeleine's body had ended up on a landfill site?
The oven is on, so let me split this into 2 parts.
I have no reason to believe that, at the time Madeleine went missing, the police understood that all of the rubbish in Barlavento (the western half of the Algarve) went through a single site. People discussing the case around 2007/2008 appear to think there were multiple landfill sites, and that even the councils were first fly-tipping before later transporting to one of several dumps.
The process of Luz to transfer station to Barlavento landfill took quite a while to emerge. It is not an obvious concept, nor do I think the police track European Directives or inspect landfill sites.
The most likely scenario is that they hadn't a clue.
I can remember in the UK vaguely around that time getting recycling rolled out. There was a small green wheelie bin for grass and tree cuttings. Then came plastic crates, for plastic, metal, cardboard/paper, glass etc. Batteries were not to be put in the rubbish, they were to be taken to a shop that sold batteries, which was now required by law to have a receptacle for used batteries. Electronic components were not supposed to go into the general waste. Shops selling electrical and electronic goods were required to handle these, whether one bought a new product or not. I hope I do not need to go near fridges, freezers or materials like used engine oil, paint cleaner etc.
I had no idea of why at the time, and I didn't care. Recycling seemed to me to be a good thing for the sake of our children and grandchildren, so I recycled.
As I have made clear, despite 30 years in one place, I have no idea where my landfill site is, nor do I know if it goes through an intermediate transfer station.
Bottom line is simple. I cannot think why the PJ should have known about Barlavento landfill, UNLESS THEY HAD ALREADY INVESTIGATED IT. Who knows, maybe they did in the Cipriano case, but it appears a different tack was taken on that one. I am not familiar with the Cipriano case therefore I shall keep my comment short. I believe the method of body disposal was dismemberment, into a fridge, into a car, and into a car crusher in Spain. I have great difficulty with the fridge and the car crusher, but like I said my experience of the Cipriano case is minute.
I need to check the oven, so I will move on to the second element of your post.
Assuming they were ignorant of the system, what was to stop them thinking - ahhh, landfill! Nothing. Not a single thing.
The only element of importance is how long it would have taken them to establish that there is a single landfill site in the whole of the Algarve, fed by multiple transfer stations.
I have made clear earlier in the thread that if they got on with it as a matter of priority, they should have been able to crack this within a couple of days of deciding that the 188 bin check was insufficient.
By that time, the whole of the western Algarve had layered in lorryload after lorryload of rubbish. It is NOT landfill unique to Luz, it is landfill for a large number of town and cities.
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Would it have perhaps been a good idea for the police to put local landfill site sorters on high alert for the possible presence of a missing child's body amongst the garbage? Any evidence that they did?
High alert? Yes it would.
No, there is no evidence that they did.
There is also no evidence that they knew where landfill was processed in the Algarve. A bit tricky to do something unless you know that something exists.
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Yes.
Dead pig, with all of the viscera.
Are you sure about that?
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Are you sure about that?
Absolutely.
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Pork is dead pig. It is not live pig, it is dead. Eddie was trained on dead pig, and unless something very odd was going on with Eddie's training, that must have continued beyond his early days, in the absence of human body farms in the UK.
As Eddie appears to have alerted to dead pig, he appears to have alerted to pork. It is claimed that he did not alert to cooked pork. I am making a working assumption that he did not alert to live pigs.
I made no claim whatsoever that Eddie alerted to cooked pork. I made it crystal clear that I was talking about uncooked pork (still dead by the way). You are asserting that I talked about cooked pork, and the amount of cooked pork in the landfill site. At no time did I come close to stating that cooked pork in a landfill site might confuse Eddie.
You transformed my phrase 'dead pig' into 'pig carcasses' which I did not say, and invented the concept of one or more landfill sites stuffed with pig carcasses. This was a fanciful invention, that came from you. Personally, I cannot think of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases. Do they do that in an outbreak of swine flu?
You also invented the concept of landfill sites consisting entirely of ham sandwiches. I cannot remember if it was one landfill site, or landfill sites plural. If you really cannot remember your invention of such a concept, I seriously suggest you may wish to get your memory checked. A single landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches is not something I would forget, if I had invented it.
Do I understand now?
Well, despite it appearing that some members of the forum think the exchange has been a little heated, I am firmly convinced that my understanding of things has gone forward a fair bit. My thanks to all the members, including yourself, who have provided useful information to bring to the situation.
I suppose I should trot off and get the oven going. I think I am cooking a dead pig joint, aka a pork joint, for dinner tonight. I would not like to leave it to the stage we need to throw our piece of dead pig into the waste, and have this uncooked pork ending up in the Barlavento landfill.
After that it is choices, choices. Gravy or cauliflower in a cheese sauce? Off topic I know. Will this comment get pruned?
If you get any more arch, they might build a cathedral around you. There's lots of illogical and inaccurate "content" up there and I think concentrating on your cooking at this stage is probably a very good idea for you.
PS: if you're going to accuse me of making a statement about landfill sites being composed entirely of ham sandwiches then perhaps you'd do me the honour of quoting me exactly? 8((()*/
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The thread was about Sr Amaral.
It seems to have morphed into a waste management thread.
Check out:
Directive 1999/31/EC
This directive, of course, has to be enacted in each member state by the laws of those states.
Then it starts to get a bit complicated and unless you are an expert on waste disposal and how Portugal enacted the 1999 directive you are p*****g in the wind.
In this instance, I believe we are on topic. Basically, Amaral did not have the landfill searched. Did that, in any way, shape or form contribute to his removal?
There happens to be a document, I think from 2007, about how Portugal implemented the directive and how well Portugal was doing in this respect. It is in English, written by someone in the EC. If you really want a good night's sleep, let me know and I'll dig out the link.
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Pretty good these dogs. 8(0(*
Except that sadly the dog didn't find the man on this occasion I believe. They are excellent at finding bodies in the main though, you're right - no need to wink at me.
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The oven is on, so let me split this into 2 parts.
I have no reason to believe that, at the time Madeleine went missing, the police understood that all of the rubbish in Barlavento (the western half of the Algarve) went through a single site. People discussing the case around 2007/2008 appear to think there were multiple landfill sites, and that even the councils were first fly-tipping before later transporting to one of several dumps.
The process of Luz to transfer station to Barlavento landfill took quite a while to emerge. It is not an obvious concept, nor do I think the police track European Directives or inspect landfill sites.
The most likely scenario is that they hadn't a clue.
I can remember in the UK vaguely around that time getting recycling rolled out. There was a small green wheelie bin for grass and tree cuttings. Then came plastic crates, for plastic, metal, cardboard/paper, glass etc. Batteries were not to be put in the rubbish, they were to be taken to a shop that sold batteries, which was now required by law to have a receptacle for used batteries. Electronic components were not supposed to go into the general waste. Shops selling electrical and electronic goods were required to handle these, whether one bought a new product or not. I hope I do not need to go near fridges, freezers or materials like used engine oil, paint cleaner etc.
I had no idea of why at the time, and I didn't care. Recycling seemed to me to be a good thing for the sake of our children and grandchildren, so I recycled.
As I have made clear, despite 30 years in one place, I have no idea where my landfill site is, nor do I know if it goes through an intermediate transfer station.
Bottom line is simple. I cannot think why the PJ should have known about Barlavento landfill, UNLESS THEY HAD ALREADY INVESTIGATED IT. Who knows, maybe they did in the Cipriano case, but it appears a different tack was taken on that one. I am not familiar with the Cipriano case therefore I shall keep my comment short. I believe the method of body disposal was dismemberment, into a fridge, into a car, and into a car crusher in Spain. I have great difficulty with the fridge and the car crusher, but like I said my experience of the Cipriano case is minute.
I need to check the oven, so I will move on to the second element of your post.
Assuming they were ignorant of the system, what was to stop them thinking - ahhh, landfill! Nothing. Not a single thing.
The only element of importance is how long it would have taken them to establish that there is a single landfill site in the whole of the Algarve, fed by multiple transfer stations.
I have made clear earlier in the thread that if they got on with it as a matter of priority, they should have been able to crack this within a couple of days of deciding that the 188 bin check was insufficient.
By that time, the whole of the western Algarve had layered in lorryload after lorryload of rubbish. It is NOT landfill unique to Luz, it is landfill for a large number of town and cities.
Re; the part I bolded above. That's all you needed to say. It says it all for me! Haven't got time to read the rest of your post at this moment in time, but will come back to it later, it's bound to interesting...
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I stand to be corrected.
But I think (the late) Eddie (RIP) might (have) react(ed) to a leg of pork (cooked or uncooked).
What he (or any other cadaver dog) would not react to is something like bacon, because of the way it is processed which kills the scent.
Have I got that wrong?
It has been been phrased in different ways and it isn't entirelly clear as to whether it's the processing that's key or simply the fact that no one is likely to eat a pork chop - cooked or raw - that has been in a rubbish bin for a week.
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There would be no cadaver odour if the pig had been gutted and butchered.
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There would be no cadaver odour if the pig had been gutted and butchered.
I am still cooking and slowly catching up on the backlog in this thread.
May I ask you why a pork chop goes off if one does not cook and eat it in time. I ask because 1) the pork chop is clearly dead 2) the process of decay has clearly set in to an extent that one does not feel that cooking will kill the bacteria involved in the decay process.
This is how a butchered dead body decomposes. The smell of dead body decomposition is clear to the human nose, let alone Eddie.
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I am still cooking and slowly catching up on the backlog in this thread.
May I ask you why a pork chop goes off if one does not cook and eat it in time. I ask because 1) the pork chop is clearly dead 2) the process of decay has clearly set in to an extent that one does not feel that cooking will kill the bacteria involved in the decay process.
This is how a butchered dead body decomposes. The smell of dead body decomposition is clear to the human nose, let alone Eddie.
There is a difference.
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I am still cooking and slowly catching up on the backlog in this thread.
May I ask you why a pork chop goes off if one does not cook and eat it in time. I ask because 1) the pork chop is clearly dead 2) the process of decay has clearly set in to an extent that one does not feel that cooking will kill the bacteria involved in the decay process.
This is how a butchered dead body decomposes. The smell of dead body decomposition is clear to the human nose, let alone Eddie.
The issue is about fit for human consumption.
Forget about it for tonight and enjoy your dinner.
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High alert? Yes it would.
No, there is no evidence that they did.
There is also no evidence that they knew where landfill was processed in the Algarve. A bit tricky to do something unless you know that something exists.
OK, let's see if we can work through this together Police know that landfill sites exist, generally speaking, agreed? Police know that bins exist in PdL and could possibly have been used to hide a small body and that bins get emptied at landfill sites regularly, yes? Police might be able to put two and two together and surmise that there was a possibility that bins emptied the morning after the disappearance were taken to a local rubbish tip and if they didn't know which one then they could take the highly novel approach of asking a few questions of the refuse collectors and actually find out, right? So why doI need to provide cites and evidence of what knowledge the police did or didn't have at that time? Surely it is incumbent on investigating policemen to find out answers to questions that may be relevant, not for us to make allowances for their lack of background knowledge on the whereabouts of landfill sites, or is this fanciful / crazy of me?
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There would be no cadaver odour if the pig had been gutted and butchered.
I'm not sure about that as the substances end up decomposing either way. Using a whole dead piglet would help to find a whole human cadaver (because you've got the bouquet of the whole body). But if the dog isn't able to react to a rotting pork chop, how would he be able to find a dismembered human?
If he wouldn't react to a rotting cooked pork chop, how would he react to a dismembered human whose home had then been set alight?
The problem I have with the various descriptions of the dog's training is that I find them ambiguous and inconsistent. I'm sure that there are one or two other descriptions lurking somewhere as well.
From the scientific papers I've read, the components of the bouquet vary according to substance (e.g. bone doesn't smell the same as gut) and they vary over time (the individual VOCs peak and fall in overlapping waves).
The training of a VRD provides an alert response using Ivan Pavlov's theory of producing a conditioned reflex, in this case barking, to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained
exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as
specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider
variety of scenarios.
...
The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2473
Here's another one:
"False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal."
Whis is meant by "designed"? The process used by commercial slaughterhouses / the meat processing industry (e.g., bacon)? Or does it mean fit for human consumption?
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Back to topic ish.
These passages read to me as if Amaral wasn't too keen on assistance. Did he hope to solve the case with just his usual small team? Did he feel that any credit would have been diluted? Hard to tell.
I find it hard to imagine that at least one of the various UK agencies hadn't suggested specialist dogs... whether Grime's or any of the others.
A team from the Central Crime Fighting Directorate (DCCB) arrives from Lisbon, accompanied by their director. I wasn't informed of this decision, but I agree with it. The reinforcements are welcomed, because we must get on very quickly. The experience of these police officers in the field of abductions and the taking of hostages is a plus for the investigation and the ways they operate are largely superior to ours. In addition, their experts are the most qualified of the police judiciaire. From now on, two deputy national directors, assisted by the coordinator of the Portimão Department of Criminal Investigation, will direct the investigations. A few months later, chief inspector Tavares de Almeida was to share one of his convictions with me: if we had remained solely responsible for the investigation, we would have advanced more quickly.
In reality, I don't know. I don't think we can rewrite history with "if." At that time the directorate of the police judiciaire had decided on it, and we had favourably welcomed the arrival of that team. It was about doing our best with these new participants and taking advantage of their ways of working. The motivations behind that decision, whatever they are don't interest us in the slightest.
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On Monday May 7th, we start to welcome our English colleagues from Leicestershire, the county where Madeleine and her parents live.
When we requested the collaboration of the English police, our request was passed on, according to practice, via the liaison officer of SOCA* We thought that a case of abduction was within the jurisdiction of Scotland Yard, who are much more experienced than others in the fight against violent crime. We learned that in Great Britain, investigations are consigned to the sector where the victim resides. Nevertheless, Scotland Yard will intervene later on.
(...)
Two days later, English colleagues begin to arrive. The main idea was for the English police to place at our disposal two specialists in family supervision and support to be the link between the Portuguese investigators and the McCanns. The National Directorate of the PJ had authorised the arrival of these police officers in the context of international collaboration. Bob Small, an officer from the Leicestershire police, and one of his colleagues meet us to take stock of the situation and evaluate the needs of the investigation before making contact with the couple.
We insist on knowing what our English counterparts have come to Portugal to do. I assign one of my investigators to follow the English superintendent like a shadow and to keep me informed about his actions. I want to be informed of everything he learns, the names of the people he meets and the places he goes to.
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The situation seems complicated.
The GNR took charge of the searches for the child. The priority was to search for a living child (who could have wandered off, or been abducted and dumped somewhere). They got additional help from various search and rescue teams in order to do so. Whether or not they checked the top of bins along their way isn't clear.
At the same time, the small PJ team was in charge of the criminal investigation, headed by Amaral, albeit with assistance whisked down from Lisbon after a few days. Amaral's experience of "investigating" missing children cases was limited to one.
I agree with Alfie that there were numerous missed opportunities, and Gamble described the approach as "haphazard".
However, I also agree with SIL that at the time they didn't have a CSI manual, a sex offender's register, a DNA database... the resources and training at the time were somewhat limited. There were hardly any functioning cctvs to consult, and they somehow managed to miss a potentially key one that was.
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The situation seems complicated.
The GNR took charge of the searches for the child. The priority was to search for a living child (who could have wandered off, or been abducted and dumped somewhere). They got additional help from various search and rescue teams in order to do so. Whether or not they checked the top of bins along their way isn't clear.
At the same time, the small PJ team was in charge of the criminal investigation, headed by Amaral, albeit with assistance whisked down from Lisbon after a few days. Amaral's experience of "investigating" missing children cases was limited to one.
I agree with Alfie that there were numerous missed opportunities, and Gamble described the approach as "haphazard".
However, I also agree with SIL that at the time they didn't have a CSI manual, a sex offender's register, a DNA database... the resources and training at the time were somewhat limited. There were hardly any functioning cctvs to consult, and they somehow managed to miss a potentially key one that was.
All in all the perfect place to carry out such a crime, then.
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All in all the perfect place to carry out such a crime, then.
A fact which someone familiar with the resort would have been aware of. The knowledge of the movement of police patrols might also have been a factor and how an alert in Odiaxere would have been handled and the window of opportunity that might give for nefarious business to take place elsewhere.