Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 07:51:06 AM
Title: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 07:51:06 AM
I'm watching the video of the cadaver dog Eddie http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html The Eddie and Keela Extended Videos This first video contains footage of Eddie and Keela's searches in the following apartments:5A - The McCanns apartment (28 April - 03 May 2007)5B - Matthew/Rachael Oldfield5D - Russell O'Brien/Jane TannerH5 - David/Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster4G - The McCanns' second Ocean Club apartment (04 May -... MCCANNFILES.COM Hopefully I'll get to see if they are the same cuddle cat, seen twice, or different items.
I'm watching the video of the cadaver dog Eddie http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html The Eddie and Keela Extended Videos This first video contains footage of Eddie and Keela's searches in the following apartments:5A - The McCanns apartment (28 April - 03 May 2007)5B - Matthew/Rachael Oldfield5D - Russell O'Brien/Jane TannerH5 - David/Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster4G - The McCanns' second Ocean Club apartment (04 May -... MCCANNFILES.COM Hopefully I'll get to see if they are the same cuddle cat, seen twice, or different items.
I have allowed this thread because it is a valid question. The simple answer appears to be no, there weren't two cuddlecats or at least there weren't two in the context you are suggesting. Having viewed the original video published on the internet by Mr Levy prior to it being edited somewhat, I do not recall either dog 'alerting' to the cuddly toy.
I know you like to think outside the box Bob and that is extremely commendable but you must provide evidence from at least one source to back up any theories?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 20, 2016, 01:38:12 PM
We did the "Whicker Island" bit with abductors carrying infants all over the oche. I suppose it's easier with CuddleCats as they probably had serial numbers. Find videos taken in suitable aspects and attitudes to pick up then enhance the serial numbers and the jobs a good un. Otherwise have we seen n Cuddle Cats or the same one n times?. This is like ground hog day with the previous thread not to mention the "Imagine this Scenario" thread.
Is someone bootlegging someone elses idea or is it a single author with deux noms de plume ? Yeah Mods and Co I know it's naughty and unfounded speculation on my part but it's fun ?{)(**. [Holds out wrist]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 20, 2016, 05:11:37 PM
I think this forum requires something more solid than abovetopsecret and a line that runs "Surely there are not two 'Cuddle Cats'."
As to two CCs in Luz, this proposition is easy to think through.
Option 1. CC was new, an early present given to her for her 4th birthday. Really no need for an old CC then! Presumably somewhere there is an earlier video of MBM with CC, but I won't be searching everything to check.
Option 2. There were 2 CCs in Luz. This is not mentioned in Kate's book, or Amaral's book, or in the PJ Files, and those eagle-eyed media people were a bit slow, since Kate often toted CC around. So if there are 2, for some reason the early present was identical to what MBM already had.
Option 3. A second CC was introduced after MBM disappeared. But why? If one CC did not produce alerts but the other did (and yes folks, I am aware this is disputed) why hang on to the old one, rather than trashing it?
There is no evidence of a second CC and the idea does not make any sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 06:47:24 PM
You mean you have no evidence...I'm gobsmacked and there was me thinking you had made a breakthough. As for Cuddlecat MkII, since Maddie never got to celebrate her fourth birthday it is logical to assume she never saw her new friend.
A sheep farmer and a scientist, you sure are a busy Bobbie! @)(++(*
Her uncle would be able to confirm whether the exchange of presents had already occurred? SY can check this out and the FBI could give any imposter CCs a lie detector test (just kidding).
[I've just noted a little green sticker under the "egghead" picture "! watched". That is so funny because after this month is over you might never see me again ever.]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 06:49:00 PM
I'm watching the video of the cadaver dog Eddie http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html The Eddie and Keela Extended Videos This first video contains footage of Eddie and Keela's searches in the following apartments:5A - The McCanns apartment (28 April - 03 May 2007)5B - Matthew/Rachael Oldfield5D - Russell O'Brien/Jane TannerH5 - David/Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster4G - The McCanns' second Ocean Club apartment (04 May -... MCCANNFILES.COM Hopefully I'll get to see if they are the same cuddle cat, seen twice, or different items.
Bob, do you not think that Amaral and the PJ would have determined this nine years ago?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2016, 06:50:54 PM
Perhaps the pertinent question about Cuddle Cat is why he wasn't bagged and entered into evidence in the early hours of 4th May. There is no mystery or secret about who washed Cuddle Cat and why ...
quote from Kate McCann's diary
THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrushut upl and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never.
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat. I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 06:53:35 PM
Perhaps the pertinent question about Cuddle Cat is why he wasn't bagged and entered into evidence in the early hours of 4th May. There is no mystery or secret about who washed Cuddle Cat and why ...
quote from Kate McCann's diary
THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrushut upl and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never.
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat. I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX
A good point Brie. Assuming there was an abduction and Cuddlecat was on the bed at the time, he could have had incrimating hairs or fibres on him from an intruder. Another opportunity lost for ever.
Another question is why wasn't Cuddlecat used for scenting purposes since Kate herself spoke of it having a profound scent on it?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 07:06:58 PM
Bob, do you not think that Amaral and the PJ would have determined this nine years ago?
The PJ wouldn't be taking CC to different locations, enabling Eddie to check it over twice, would they? So if there are two places in the extended video where there are CCs that must mean there are two versions of CC and one is the changeling and the other the real OCC. [Note: in hindsight this was said in error. There was only checks on CC at the villa and the next day but there was no Cuddle Cat at 5A.]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 07:45:14 PM
.... Another question is why wasn't Cuddlecat used for scenting purposes since Kate herself spoke of it having a profound scent on it?
What do you mean by that John "used for scenting purposes"? Do you mean scent for the original tracker dogs? They might have. [ deleted speculation ] So I think MBM's new pair of shoes (worn for two or three days) would be the best for the tracker dogs. There would be fewer stray smells on them.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 07:51:51 PM
What do you mean by that John "used for scenting purposes"? Do you mean scent for the original tracker dogs? They might have. [ deleted speculation ] So I think MBM's new pair of shoes (worn for two or three days) would be the best for the tracker dogs. There would be fewer stray smells on them.
Yes, the two teams of tracker dogs used initially by the PJ. Weren't they given a comfort blanket initially then a towel or something to scent?
From Vitor Matos, Chief Inspector.
Search by GNR dog team
The GNR team performing the search had in its possession, packed in a plastic bag, a towel supposedly used to clean the missing youngster - Madeleine McCann - furnished by her parents.
Yes, the two teams of tracker dogs used initially by the PJ. Weren't they given a towel or something to scent?
I don't know that answer at all. Unusual choice for one towel could have been used for all 3 kids at bath time. That's what I would have done. If there were 3 towels how would they know which one Madeleine had used. That seems odd if they used a towel.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 20, 2016, 07:56:58 PM
We know there are differences in Gerry's statements...could there be two Gerry McCanns
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 07:59:47 PM
Perhaps the pertinent question about Cuddle Cat is why he wasn't bagged and entered into evidence in the early hours of 4th May. There is no mystery or secret about who washed Cuddle Cat and why ...
quote from Kate McCann's diary
THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrushut upl and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never.
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat. I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX
Where does this quote come from for I have looked for her diary and could not find it. Has it been published somewhere?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2016, 08:15:04 PM
Cuddlecat certainly seems to be in this up to his/her/their furry necks;
day 23 - 26th may 07
3rd official website registered as
www.cuddlecat.co.uk - linked to
www.findmadeleine.com - linked to
www.bringmadeleinehome.com
A quantity were purchased allegedly;
Daily Mail: 25 January 2008:
Método 3, whose contract expires in March, has 40 investigators working on the case, here and in Portugal and Spain. Each has a replica of Cuddle Cat, Madeleine's favourite toy, which they are encouraged to squeeze when they feel demotivated at the size of their task. unquote) http://fytton.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/going-global-websites.html
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2016, 08:23:59 PM
IMO there was only one cat and it was possibly bought for the child at an airport in early April 2007 during the Donegal trip, possibly at Derry airport?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 08:37:50 PM
IMO there was only one cat and it was possibly bought for the child at an airport in early April 2007 during the Donegal trip, possibly at Derry airport?
Under moderator rules we need citations so opinions don't count. Show us on what basis you made that opinion please. We have the quote from her book which poo hoos what you claim as opinion: "Then we kissed the twins, and kissed Madeleine, already snuggled down with her ‘princess’ blanket and Cuddle Cat – a soft toy she’d been given soon after she was born and never went to bed without." So that means OCC was nearly 4 years old too.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 08:57:58 PM
That is correct, the words "... put out of reach on a top shelf" have been removed from the article since the comment was most probably invented/hearsay.
But that was just one of the many I looked at in the search function. Is someone going around trying to wipe clean CCs paw prints? I haven't gone back to the video of cadaver dog, but yesterday I noted there was one on the floor in some room that wasn't the apartment 5A. So that is one CC and with that one there was no indicating by the dog Eddie.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 20, 2016, 09:17:11 PM
IMO there was only one cat and it was possibly bought for the child at an airport in early April 2007 during the Donegal trip, possibly at Derry airport?
Not if this photo is anything to go by. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/49may11/sun9511mk.JPG
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2016, 09:18:21 PM
Where does this quote come from for I have looked for her diary and could not find it. Has it been published somewhere?
Yes. Her private diary was given from someone in the PJ investigation to Correio da Manhã which printed unauthorised extracts; the News of the World and the Sun printed extracts and apologised for doing so and both made undisclosed payments to Madeleine's Fund when it was discovered the release was unauthorised.
Extract from Leveson Inquiry including video. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/leveson-inquiry/8911828/Leveson-Inquiry-as-it-happened-November-23.html
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 09:28:55 PM
The PJ wouldn't be taking CC to different locations, enabling Eddie to check it over twice, would they? So if there are two places in the extended video where there are CCs that must mean there are two versions of CC and one is the changeling and the other the real OCC.
There might be two scenes with Cuddlecat in them but they weren't filmed concurrently were they?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 09:45:57 PM
But that was just one of the many I looked at in the search function. Is someone going around trying to wipe clean CCs paw prints? I haven't gone back to the video of cadaver dog, but yesterday I noted there was one on the floor in some room that wasn't the apartment 5A. So that is one CC and with that one there was no indicating by the dog Eddie.
It was the rented villa and yes, a lot of editing has been done in both online videos and media reports.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2016, 10:01:14 PM
Are you being unfair for some one said that CC had the smell of MBM on it, and that is only published in a tabloid. Did you delete that statement as well? I can find many quotes in the tabloids where Kate says this about the CC being on a shelf or ledge out of reach.
Please do share at least one of the many, thank you.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 10:02:19 PM
There might be two scenes with Cuddlecat in them but they weren't filmed concurrently were they?
There is only one Eddie so you can't have concurrent filming of Eddie. Did you mean consecutive? Google dictionary
Quote
concurrent
adjective 1. existing, happening, or done at the same time. "there are three concurrent art fairs around the city" synonyms: simultaneous, coincident, coinciding, contemporaneous, synchronous
They seem consecutive. What was that trying to prove?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 20, 2016, 10:15:05 PM
It was the rented villa and yes, a lot of editing has been done in both online videos and media reports.
in the OP is the link to the unedited film (rather long and boring).http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
Going through multiple places. and there is no commentary telling us where they are. But they film the room title e.g. 5A and 5G now who lived in 5G? We don't know why they went looking in some of the places.
Edit: "e.g. 5A and 5G now who lived in 5G?" should be "e.g. 5A and 4G now who lived in 4G?" (4G is where McCanns moved to later)
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
in the OP is the link to the unedited film (rather long and boring).http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
Going through multiple places. and there is no commentary telling us where they are. But they film the room title e.g. 5A and 5G now who lived in 5G? We don't know why they went looking in some of the places.
Under the video in your link is the list of apartments the dogs were sent to, and who were the occupants, 5g was not a part of the search
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 11:11:21 PM
in the OP is the link to the unedited film (rather long and boring).http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
Going through multiple places. and there is no commentary telling us where they are. But they film the room title e.g. 5A and 5G now who lived in 5G? We don't know why they went looking in some of the places.
I think you should have a look at the following thread which contains stills taken from the villa search video. Eddie plays with cuddlecat before ignoring him yet minutes later he was supposed to alert to him whilst hidden in a piece of furniture.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 02:53:03 AM
If there was one CC left in apartment 5A and Kate has one with her in Rome there must be two CCs. There would be no value in letting her carry it around for 10 weeks and wash it etc and then call in for a cadaver odour test. So the question is: Is the CC in the videos that was subject to EVRD tests the same CC or a different one to the one that Kate had during her travels?
Come to think of it Kate has said there has never been a request to hand in Cuddle Cat in order for CC to be tested.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 03:45:07 AM
Under the video in your link is the list of apartments the dogs were sent to, and who were the occupants, 5g was not a part of the search
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
Quote
This first video contains footage of Eddie and Keela's searches in the following apartments:
5A - The McCanns apartment (28 April - 03 May 2007) 5B - Matthew/Rachael Oldfield 5D - Russell O'Brien/Jane Tanner H5 - David/Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster 4G - The McCanns' second Ocean Club apartment (04 May - 01 July 2007) 5A - Search of the gardens and veranda area
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 09:23:05 AM
There is more than the usual form of indication, standing and barking, but also playing with toy (as in Cuddle Cat) and as you say digging. They are all very natural indications a dog has found a target. Even if they are trained to do one thing these other aspects can't be ignored.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 21, 2016, 11:53:39 AM
If you watch the cadaver dog video carefully, you will note that the handler first opens the far cupboard door located beside where Eddie had stood, barking. The handler must have expected to find the scent source, CC, within that cupboard. But CC wasn't in that cupboard - it was then produced from the cupboard nearest to the cameraman. Why was that do you suppose?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 01:22:37 PM
If you watch the cadaver dog video carefully, you will note that the handler first opens the far cupboard door located beside where Eddie had stood, barking. The handler must have expected to find the scent source, CC, within that cupboard. But CC wasn't in that cupboard - it was then produced from the cupboard nearest to the cameraman. Why was that do you suppose?
What have you got in mind? I'll have another look at it in the morning. 12:15 AM here. But tell me what you are thinking so I have an idea what to look out for please.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Lace on July 21, 2016, 03:54:44 PM
agreed, there is more than the usual form of indication, standing and barking, but also playing with toy (as in Cuddle Cat) and as you say digging. They are all very natural indications a dog has found a target. Even if they are trained to do one thing these other aspects can't be ignored.
A cadaver dog is trained to alert to the scent of cadaver, Eddie was trained to bark as his alert not play with something, he played with CC tossing it into the air, no barking.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 21, 2016, 05:31:46 PM
What have you got in mind? I'll have another look at it in the morning. 12:15 AM here. But tell me what you are thinking so I have an idea what to look out for please.
IMO the handler misinterpreted what his dog was alerting to. Try watching the whole CC sequence using quick repeated freeze frame & you will have a whole new perspective on the alert.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 21, 2016, 06:56:38 PM
If you watch the cadaver dog video carefully, you will note that the handler first opens the far cupboard door located beside where Eddie had stood, barking. The handler must have expected to find the scent source, CC, within that cupboard. But CC wasn't in that cupboard - it was then produced from the cupboard nearest to the cameraman. Why was that do you suppose?
Well done misty 8@??)(
Had an awful struggle to find how to slow frame the images, but finally managed it.
As you say Eddie alerted above the first door that Martin slid open and this was not the actual cupboard that CC was in, although they did open into each other.
Watching the video run at 0.25 speed rather than normal, it was pretty obvious that the loose piece of paper on the top of the pile of folders /clothes was what interested Eddie. His nose virtually touched it as he started barking.
So where did that piece of paper come from? Where had it been, or what had been done to it, to make it smell of pig, blood or Cadervine?
Anyone know where it came from, or who it belonged to?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 09:15:41 PM
Had an awful struggle to find how to slow frame the images, but finally managed it.
As you say Eddie alerted above the first door that Martin slid open and this was not the actual cupboard that CC was in, although they did open into each other.
Watching the video run at 0.25 speed rather than normal, it was pretty obvious that the loose piece of paper on the top of the pile of folders /clothes was what interested Eddie. His nose virtually touched it as he started barking.
So where did that piece of paper come from? Where had it been, or what had been done to it, to make it smell of pig, blood or Cadervine?
Anyone know where it came from, or who it belonged to?
This sounds important. Is this the same incident as you saw Misty? The other thing to do is for us to stop the video at the important frame and record its location and post this on the thread so we all can identify the exact spot that each of us are talking about. But slowing the speed of the playback is also a very good method enabling us to see more at each moment. A piece of paper could be a note written by someone. Under sundries exhibits - there was a piece of paper found outside the apartment. Was it outside 5A?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 09:52:49 PM
At 1:47 into the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg [note: set it on 25% playback speed] Eddie goes beside the couch and reaches for a toy on top of a metal canister and tips the canister over and stuff is spilt onto the floor. Is this the incident that is described as "Eddie playing with CC?"
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 10:00:30 PM
By 1:53 Eddie has carried and dropped CC in the middle of the floor of the lounge. The paws are lighter in colour compared to the body and there appears to be a dark band around it neck plus something shiny.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 10:05:44 PM
By 2:08 the cameraman has had several quick shots emphasising Cuddle Cat rather than following Eddie. Was that his intention? Very useful for us, thanks cameraman.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 10:25:15 PM
At 2:52 Eddie spends a lot of time checking a particular area under the double bed (main bedroom) directly adjacent to the double doored wardrobe.
But some time prior to that immediately after 2:08 Eddie sniffs Martins hand, has he picked up cuddle cat and now Eddie is going for the place where CC had been? That is what it looks like to me.
[ Speculation removed ]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 21, 2016, 10:25:41 PM
Well, we'll leave to decide if the toy Eddie pulled out of the canister (he did also toss it around but someone helpfully deleted that from the original video uploaded) is the one and only Cuddlecat.
We have never actually established what the pile of items was on the worktop which Eddie first alerted to - Pegasus thought it was clothes but I disagreed, seeing the items as books/folders of some description.
[ Edited ]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 21, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
Had an awful struggle to find how to slow frame the images, but finally managed it.
As you say Eddie alerted above the first door that Martin slid open and this was not the actual cupboard that CC was in, although they did open into each other.
Watching the video run at 0.25 speed rather than normal, it was pretty obvious that the loose piece of paper on the top of the pile of folders /clothes was what interested Eddie. His nose virtually touched it as he started barking.
So where did that piece of paper come from? Where had it been, or what had been done to it, to make it smell of pig, blood or Cadervine?
Anyone know where it came from, or who it belonged to?
I can't take the credit for that, Sadie. Where Pegasus led, I followed, & we spent hours discussing the video on another thread a few months ago.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 10:40:36 PM
Well, we'll leave to decide if the toy Eddie pulled out of the canister (he did also toss it around but someone helpfully deleted that from the original video uploaded) is the one and only Cuddlecat.
We have never actually established what the pile of items was on the worktop which Eddie first alerted to - Pegasus thought it was clothes but I disagreed, seeing the items as books/folders of some description.
[ Edited ]
"You need to look at the sequence in which the dog & handler go behind the table and then where he barks." what was the time on the video of this. " but someone helpfully deleted that from the original video uploaded)" are you implying this is on the full length version but not the edited version we are looking now?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 10:43:38 PM
"You need to look at the sequence in which the dog & handler go behind the table and then where he barks." what was the time on the video of this. " but someone helpfully deleted that from the original video uploaded)" are you implying this is on the full length version but not the edited version we are looking now?
Have a look at this copy uploaded to the internet, spot the parts which are missing from the re-edited version we have on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 21, 2016, 11:26:02 PM
Have a look at this copy uploaded to the internet, spot the parts which are missing from the re-edited version we have on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s
That would be an enormous task. Sorry I just can't afford the time to do that.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 21, 2016, 11:39:43 PM
That would be an enormous task. Sorry I just can't afford the time to do that.
It would take you about 5 hours - the same sort of time you'd take dealing with the repercussions of shooting a branded duck. The cadaver video I linked to is really rather interesting and you can see Eddie in the dark.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2016, 11:51:16 PM
Can someone remind me what evidence there is of two identical toys, ta As far as I know the mccanns removed all their belongings from the flat when vacating
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 12:10:35 AM
Can someone remind me what evidence there is of two identical toys, ta As far as I know the mccanns removed all their belongings from the flat when vacating
It has been suggested that original CC was bagged up & kept by the PJ & new CC featured in all subsequent events.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2016, 12:14:30 AM
Can someone remind me what evidence there is of two identical toys, ta As far as I know the mccanns removed all their belongings from the flat when vacating
That must include the cuddle cat too then, agreed? So how did the PJ get the one in the video?
The one that Eddie is indicating as having previous contact with a cadaver?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 01:56:41 AM
That must include the cuddle cat too then, agreed? So how did the PJ get the one in the video?
The one that Eddie is indicating as having previous contact with a cadaver?
The one in the video was taken to the villa the McCanns rented from July - Sept 2007. Kate had been photographed on many occasions carrying CC around & it was resident in the villa during the same period. In August 2007 the PJ & cadaver dog team descended on the rented villa, sent the McCanns away for the evening & they then screened the contents, which included CC. CC was then boxed along with some clothing & other items & sent to a gymnasium for a further forensic exercise, yet the dogs failed to alert to it there. CC & the marked clothing were returned to the McCanns the next day without undergoing any further testing. Please watch the videos in their entirety & refer to the relevant pages in the McCann PJ files, which I'm sure you can google, to assist you further.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 04:15:28 AM
Martin Grime says this about the soft toy: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Quote
'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 08:06:03 AM
Can someone remind me what evidence there is of two identical toys, ta As far as I know the mccanns removed all their belongings from the flat when vacating
It just doesn't make sense that cadaver odour would still be present on Cuddle Cat 3 months later and after a thorough laundering. Could it have been a tactic to force an admission out of the McCanns? We don't see an unbroken chain of evidence. There are no clear photos of CC appearing in the video. There are too many shots that emphasise the soft toy, it is as if there is some sort of foreknowledge by the photographer. There are multiple attempts to get a reaction from Eddie the cadaver dog yet the same emphasis is not on other items eg the pink blanket. and yet they are side by side with Madeleine on that bed that night. The blanket would not have been washed or was it?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alfie on July 22, 2016, 08:12:25 AM
Have you considered the possibility that there were 3 Cuddlecats?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 08:22:38 AM
The one in the video was taken to the villa the McCanns rented from July - Sept 2007. Kate had been photographed on many occasions carrying CC around & it was resident in the villa during the same period. In August 2007 the PJ & cadaver dog team descended on the rented villa, sent the McCanns away for the evening & they then screened the contents, which included CC. CC was then boxed along with some clothing & other items & sent to a gymnasium for a further forensic exercise, yet the dogs failed to alert to it there. CC & the marked clothing were returned to the McCanns the next day without undergoing any further testing. Please watch the videos in their entirety & refer to the relevant pages in the McCann PJ files, which I'm sure you can google, to assist you further.
Now that makes sense now. "CC & the marked clothing were returned to the McCanns the next day without undergoing any further testing." So Kate got the same Cuddle Cat back [ deleted speculation ] It seems odd that MG recommends to retain it as evidence and yet the next day the PJ return Cuddle Cat back to Kate. Yet that is completely at odds to what Martin Grimes says: (as quoted before) "'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 08:49:43 AM
Bob, do you not think that Amaral and the PJ would have determined this nine years ago?
Yes I'm thinking Amaral did this as a deliberate ruse to force a confession out of the McCanns, but it failed.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2016, 08:58:01 AM
Eddie was a cadaver dog a dog trained to alert to cadaver scent, Martin Grime said he didn't bark at anything else when working, he give his alert by barking.
So according to Martin Grime Eddie was trained to give an alert when he could smell cadaver scent, all this nonsense about natural instincts taking over is just that nonsense, if that was the case then how on earth would Martin Grime be able to trust Eddie to make a genuine alert? If Eddie had been searching outside for instance, and played with what he found, such as discarded clothing or items belonging to someone who had been murdered, without knowing if these items belonged to the deceased or any other member of the public who had dropped something. Martin Grime would go along saying things such as 'oh Eddie may be reverting to his natural instincts there, but he may not be'.
Eddie was trained to give an alert, he did not alert to Cuddle Cat he played with it, so no cadaver scent.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2016, 09:03:14 AM
Now that makes sense now. "CC & the marked clothing were returned to the McCanns the next day without undergoing any further testing." So Kate got the same Cuddle Cat back, but if as I think there were two the other one was retained as Martin Grime recommended. It seems odd that MG recommends to retain it as evidence and yet the next day the PJ return Cuddle Cat back to Kate. Yet that is completely at odds to what Martin Grimes says: (as quoted before) "'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
It is quite obvious that Cuddle Cat was given back to the McCann's. There were not two Cuddle Cats, there was only one on the bed, that Cuddle Cat was the one that Eddie played with. Why on earth would the Police keep a Cuddle Cat that was not the one that was on the bed???
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 09:45:03 AM
IMO the handler misinterpreted what his dog was alerting to. Try watching the whole CC sequence using quick repeated freeze frame & you will have a whole new perspective on the alert.
How do you do that?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 22, 2016, 10:07:21 AM
Eddie was a cadaver dog a dog trained to alert to cadaver scent, Martin Grime said he didn't bark at anything else when working, he give his alert by barking.
So according to Martin Grime Eddie was trained to give an alert when he could smell cadaver scent, all this nonsense about natural instincts taking over is just that nonsense, if that was the case then how on earth would Martin Grime be able to trust Eddie to make a genuine alert? If Eddie had been searching outside for instance, and played with what he found, such as discarded clothing or items belonging to someone who had been murdered, without knowing if these items belonged to the deceased or any other member of the public who had dropped something. Martin Grime would go along saying things such as 'oh Eddie may be reverting to his natural instincts there, but he may not be'.
Eddie was trained to give an alert, he did not alert to Cuddle Cat he played with it, so no cadaver scent.
I've given you an example when he didn't bark. I don't know why I have to keep on repeating things that you don't want to read.
FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.
Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.
He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”
The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.
The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.
Mr Grime, 52, who described himself as a forensic canine consultant, is an adviser to the FBI in America and lectures and trains sniffer dogs there.
He has also been involved in high-profile cases in the UK and abroad.
Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell.
I've given you an example when he didn't bark. I don't know why I have to keep on repeating things that you don't want to read.
FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.
Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.
He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”
The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.
The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.
Mr Grime, 52, who described himself as a forensic canine consultant, is an adviser to the FBI in America and lectures and trains sniffer dogs there.
He has also been involved in high-profile cases in the UK and abroad.
Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell.
In my opinion ANY dog would sniff out a dead body, the whole idea that a cadaver dog is trained to alert is to NOT dig but to alert so that the evidence is not contaminated.
How exactly would that work if a body had not been there and just the scent of cadaver? How would they know if when the dog dug there was no body? They wouldn't think 'ah but no doubt there is a scent of cadaver as Eddie is digging' would they? That is why if Eddie didn't bark but played with something, there is no alert.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Lace on July 22, 2016, 11:13:20 AM
Apparently someone said so I think it might have been Martin Grime, he also said that if something had blood on it and was washed Keela would still alert.
In an article from a while back, scientists said that a cadaver dog could even alert to something that had been in the area but had been taken away, such as a bloody rag, the scent would still be around for the Cadaver dog to alert to it, but Keela wouldn't.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 22, 2016, 01:37:04 PM
Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor. Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen. Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant. It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers. It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.
Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.
www.everything2.com/title/Cadaverine
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 22, 2016, 01:51:37 PM
Distilling cadaverine.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 22, 2016, 01:54:08 PM
Are you really sure about that? Well even if you are right having done the switch that didn't matter that the cadaver odour can't be washed off. Had the PJ not switched the cuddle cats, you're saying under this new theory's scenario, they might have had an alert!
There was one Cuddlecat, the cadaver dog did not alert to it but played with it. Anything which occurred thereafter was and still is irrelevant. End off!!
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 22, 2016, 02:31:23 PM
Eddie neither marked the toy, nor alerted to it
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 03:15:50 PM
There is more than the usual form of indication, standing and barking, but also playing with toy (as in Cuddle Cat) and as you say digging. They are all very natural indications a dog has found a target. Even if they are trained to do one thing these other aspects can't be ignored.
You obviously don't understand how these dogs are trained then. The positive alert as indicated by the drivers door of the Renault Grand Scenic hire car is correct, anything else is not an alert. Please do not blur the issue.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 03:27:14 PM
IMO the handler misinterpreted what his dog was alerting to. Try watching the whole CC sequence using quick repeated freeze frame & you will have a whole new perspective on the alert.
I must say misty, I found that particular event somewhat puzzling. I know Sadie has spent a lot of time commenting on this and referring to what was on top of the sideboard and not what was in it. That said and having viewed the non edited video at length some time ago it is clear that this was all preplanned. After Eddie had his fun with Cuddlecat on the lounge floor he (Eddie) was taken into the bedrooms by Grime. While this was happening some kind guy (English or Portuguese) lifted CC and placed him on the bottom shelf of said sideboard leaving the door ever so slightly ajar. Back comes Grime and Eddie and makes an alert at the opposite end of said sideboard. What that was supposed to show is anyone's guess but an alert to Cuddlecat it was not!
The Cuddlecat in the sideboard sequence must be the most tragic representation ever of a cadaver dog supposedely alerting to a target. Even the Portuguese questioned the competence of such an episode.
Video: > Eddie in McCann's rented villa. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg)
The sequence from 02.17 finds us back in the bedroom again and with attention yet again being drawn towards the bedside wardrobe. Grime opens the door of the wardrobe to let Eddie in and some 20 seconds later out he comes without making any response. Grime puts a pink towel back in which Eddie had displaced.
(http://i.imgur.com/YUGk5KU.jpg)
From 03.50 Eddie then goes into the lounge area again and starts barking in front of a sideboard after sniffing what was on top of it.
(http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg)
Grime then summons the dog back into the bedroom again and the bedside wardrobe. Again, Eddie shows no interest and leaves before being called back yet again.
Again the dog wanders off and is called back for what must be the umpteenth time. Again no response.
From 05.30 Grime then takes the dog back to the lounge and sits him down. He goes to the sideboard at which the dog had earlier reacted by barking and opens it to find Cuddle Cat on the lower shelf.
(http://i.imgur.com/NQFrebk.jpg)
Grime holds Cuddle cat up for the camera as if it was some sort of trophy. A job well done? NOT!!
(http://i.imgur.com/2iIH1dK.jpg)
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 03:44:06 PM
What the Portuguese said of the Cuddlecat and the sideboard episode.
This event is referred to in the second Report made by a team of independent analysts from the Central Department of Criminal Investigation (Central Division of Information Analysis - PJ), dated from February 2008.
Snip
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Why didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.
Can someone remind me what evidence there is of two identical toys, ta As far as I know the mccanns removed all their belongings from the flat when vacating
None whatsoever, CC was only ever taken away for a few hours to do the gymnasium inspections! Another myth debunked?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 04:17:25 PM
It just doesn't make sense that cadaver odour would still be present on Cuddle Cat 3 months later and after a thorough laundering. Could it have been a tactic to force an admission out of the McCanns? We don't see an unbroken chain of evidence. There are no clear photos of CC appearing in the video. There are too many shots that emphasise the soft toy, it is as if there is some sort of foreknowledge by the photographer. There are multiple attempts to get a reaction from Eddie the cadaver dog yet the same emphasis is not on other items eg the pink blanket. and yet they are side by side with Madeleine on that bed that night. The blanket would not have been washed or was it?
You could say the same about the dog inspections in the underground garage.
Q. To which car was Eddie called back several times? A. McCann hire car.
Q. Several cars were identified for testing yet only one had an interior inspection. Which one? A. McCann hire car.
Q. Did examiner know which car related to McCann family? A. One car had Find Madeleine posters on its side rear windows. The McCann hire car.
Nice bit of work. Not!!
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 04:19:05 PM
I must say misty, I found that particular event somewhat puzzling. I know Sadie has spent a lot of time commenting on this and referring to what was on top of the sideboard and not what was in it. That said and having viewed the non edited video at length some time ago it is clear that this was all preplanned. After Eddie had his fun with Cuddlecat on the lounge floor he (Eddie) was taken into the bedrooms by Grime. While this was happening some kind guy (English or Portuguese) lifted CC and placed him on the bottom shelf of said sideboard leaving the door ever so slightly ajar. Back comes Grime and Eddie and makes an alert at the opposite end of said sideboard. What that was supposed to show is anyone's guess but an alert to Cuddlecat it was not!
The Cuddlecat in the sideboard sequence must be the most tragic representation ever of a cadaver dog supposedely alerting to a target. Even the Portuguese questioned the competence of such an episode.
Video: > Eddie in McCann's rented villa. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg)
The sequence from 02.17 finds us back in the bedroom again and with attention yet again being drawn towards the bedside wardrobe. Grime opens the door of the wardrobe to let Eddie in and some 20 seconds later out he comes without making any response. Grime puts a pink towel back in which Eddie had displaced.
(http://i.imgur.com/YUGk5KU.jpg)
From 03.50 Eddie then goes into the lounge area again and starts barking in front of a sideboard after sniffing what was on top of it.
(http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg)
Grime then summons the dog back into the bedroom again and the bedside wardrobe. Again, Eddie shows no interest and leaves before being called back yet again.
Again the dog wanders off and is called back for what must be the umpteenth time. Again no response.
From 05.30 Grime then takes the dog back to the lounge and sits him down. He goes to the sideboard at which the dog had earlier reacted by barking and opens it to find Cuddle Cat on the lower shelf.
(http://i.imgur.com/NQFrebk.jpg)
Grime holds Cuddle cat up for the camera as if it was some sort of trophy. A job well done? NOT!!
(http://i.imgur.com/2iIH1dK.jpg)
It's the sequence starting at 4.12 which is the more relevant, John (as cleverly spotted by Pegasus). What did the handler do when he walked part way around the table - we can't see. Watch for Eddie's head appearing very briefly above the table top. The subsequent definite alert is beside the chair with its seat obscured, adjacent to the far cupboard. Eddie is not remotely interested in those cupboards but it is clear the handler was expecting to find CC in them.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 04:41:44 PM
It's the sequence starting at 4.12 which is the more relevant, John (as cleverly spotted by Pegasus). What did the handler do when he walked part way around the table - we can't see. Watch for Eddie's head appearing very briefly above the table top. The subsequent definite alert is beside the chair with its seat obscured, adjacent to the far cupboard. Eddie is not remotely interested in those cupboards but it is clear the handler was expecting to find CC in them.
Eddie had CC in his mouth and was playing with him in the first part of the video. There is a break in the video immediately after this sequence, no doubt it was discussed what to do next. My own suspicion is that CC was placed on top of the sideboard out of reach of the dog while these discussions were happening. Later CC is put into the sideboard and Eddie brought back. First he shows immediate interest in the top of the sideboard (having previously not done so) and then the cupboard beneath, both locations I suspect CC to have been placed. Eddie found CC, he was not alerting to any clandestine odour imo.
My own view is that this exercise was a complete shambles!
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 04:44:38 PM
This thread has now been purged of unsupported speculations.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 05:40:36 PM
@ Misty who made that suggestion do you know? I think it sounds more advanced that what I had proposed.
Mr Grime is on record requesting that CC be taken for forensic analysis but it appears this never happened. Obviously the PJ weren't as convinced as some later speculated.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 06:19:08 PM
@ Misty who made that suggestion do you know? I think it sounds more advanced that what I had proposed.
I rather thought it was you, although perhaps I have embellished a little. I think most of us are having a little difficulty ascertaining where reality crosses over into changelings & Toy Story from your musings.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 07:09:52 PM
I rather thought it was you, although perhaps I have embellished a little. I think most of us are having a little difficulty ascertaining where reality crosses over into changelings & Toy Story from your musings.
When I came across the quote I'm now using in my signature "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" I felt that is the logic I have applied in developing the new theory. I have eliminated the impossible, and what resulted was rather improbable, but it was the only option left, so is it the truth as Conan Doyle said.
[ groundless speculation removed ]
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 22, 2016, 07:12:05 PM
Mr Grime is on record requesting that CC be taken for forensic analysis but it appears this never happened. Obviously the PJ weren't as convinced as some later speculated.
More likely Grime was embarrassed at being asked if the fiasco with the toy was (sic) a trick of the dog.
Grime ought to have been embarrassed by the whole darned thing.
All that came of it was the canard that Eddie scented death on the toy.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 09:33:02 PM
I rather thought it was you, although perhaps I have embellished a little. I think most of us are having a little difficulty ascertaining where reality crosses over into changelings & Toy Story from your musings.
The other criteria I applied was to allow everyone's statement to be nearly the truth. They will tell the truth but not the whole truth. I took it there would have been intelligence supplied to the PJ that is verbal and not released (like the anonymous Crimestoppers line) so the PJ would be nearly right but not quite. That is not speculation in a way because it always happens, but I can't speculate what they knew or who it was that told them this information. So when two or more statements don't agree there is the sign of one telling the truth but the others hiding something. I was also allowing for everyone to behave unusually but with no criminal intent. Can all this happen without anyone committing a major crime? Well at least less than murder or kidnapping.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 22, 2016, 10:07:27 PM
The other criteria I applied was to allow everyone's statement to be nearly the truth. They will tell the truth but not the whole truth. I took it there would have been intelligence supplied to the PJ that is verbal and not released (like the anonymous Crimestoppers line) so the PJ would be nearly right but not quite. That is not speculation in a way because it always happens, but I can't speculate what they knew or who it was that told them this information. So when two or more statements don't agree there is the sign of one telling the truth but the others hiding something. I was also allowing for everyone to behave unusually but with no criminal intent. Can all this happen without anyone committing a major crime? Well at least less than murder or kidnapping.
Not sure I'd particularly agree with the part I underline.
Human memory is fallible.
Different people are bound to have different recollections and memories of the same event.
Doesn't mean that any are lying. All are trying (to the best of their ability) to recall and relate events as they remember them.
But there are bound to be variations in memory recall.
I think, when all accounts from separate sources are identical, you should begin to suspect collusion.
Nothing like that appears to apply in witnesses statements in PdL; the variations entirely normal and to be expected in circumstances such as those that gave rise to the exercise of taking the statements.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 10:19:09 PM
Not sure I'd particularly agree with the part I underline.
Human memory is fallible.
Different people are bound to have different recollections and memories of the same event.
Doesn't mean that any are lying. All are trying (to the best of their ability) to recall and relate events as they remember them.
But there are bound to be variations in memory recall.
I think, when all accounts from separate sources are identical, you should begin to suspect collusion.
Nothing like that appears to apply in witnesses statements in PdL; the variations entirely normal and to be expected in circumstances such as those that gave rise to the exercise of taking the statements.
Have you been watching the MWT documentary on the disappearance of Veronica Packman?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 10:22:31 PM
I actually agree with you on this one, it wasn't his finest hour.
Hi John what I'm perplexed by is definition of what determines words as being speculation and what doesn't. If I say things about IVF embryos which is backed up by actual cases on the internet (if required) why is that speculation? To me that is introducing the scope of possibilities. If I repeat statements made by others that the DNA matches had a similarity of 1 billion to 1. Why is that considered speculation when it is something I'm being informed of? I could be misinformed but I feel it isn't any speculation on my part. What can I say about IVF and DNA matches?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 10:37:17 PM
Not sure I'd particularly agree with the part I underline.
Human memory is fallible.
Different people are bound to have different recollections and memories of the same event.
Doesn't mean that any are lying. All are trying (to the best of their ability) to recall and relate events as they remember them.
But there are bound to be variations in memory recall.
I think, when all accounts from separate sources are identical, you should begin to suspect collusion.
Nothing like that appears to apply in witnesses statements in PdL; the variations entirely normal and to be expected in circumstances such as those that gave rise to the exercise of taking the statements.
Yes, you wouldn't expect anyone to remember more than usual. So if you were asked "what did everyone talk about around the dinner table?" No one would be expected to be able to do that. But if someone said XYZ called around to my apartment at 1:00 AM accompanied by ABC, I would expect XYZ and/or ABC to remember this especially when prompted to recall it. Or if Kate says in her book that EFG came to talk to me, what happens would be similar to what EFG recounts in her statement. I would want to know why EFG went into the kid's bedroom unaccompanied. All this happening while Kate is deep in prayer and all happening before the Police are called.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 10:45:29 PM
Hi John what I perplexed by is what determines words as being speculation and what doesn't. If I say things about IVF embryos which is backed up by actual cases on the internet (if required) why is that speculation? If I repeat statements made by others that the DNA matches had a similarity of 1 billion to 1. Why is that considered speculation when it is something I'm being informed of? I could be misinformed but I feel it isn't any speculation on my part. What can I say about IVF and DNA matches?
What you cannot do is interject defamatory speculation without the slightest evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 22, 2016, 10:48:18 PM
Yes, you wouldn't expect anyone to remember more than usual. So if you were asked "what did everyone talk about around the dinner table?" No one would be expected to be able to do that. But if someone said XYZ called around to my apartment at 1:00 AM accompanied by ABC, I would expect XYZ and/or ABC to remember this especially when prompted to recall it. Or if Kate says in her book that EFG came to talk to me, what happens would be similar to what EFG recounts in her statement. I would want to know why EFG went into the kid's bedroom unaccompanied. All this happening while Kate is deep in prayer and all happening before the Police are called.
Off topic I know but you could also ask yourself why Kate's recall of Dave's visit to the apartment in the afternoon prior to Madeleine's disappearance was so at odds with his version?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 22, 2016, 10:53:51 PM
When I came across the quote I'm now using in my signature "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" I felt that is the logic I have applied in developing the new theory. I have eliminated the impossible, and what resulted was rather improbable, but it was the only option left, so is it the truth as Conan Doyle said.
[ groundless speculation removed ]
"In a recent judgement the English Court of Appeal has not only rejected the Sherlock Holmes doctrine shown above, but also denied that probability can be used as an expression of uncertainty for events that have either happened or not". http://understandinguncertainty.org/court-appeal-bans-bayesian-probability-and-sherlock-holmes
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 22, 2016, 11:18:12 PM
Episode 1 is a bit drawn out but events in episode 2 are rather interesting. Episode 3 is on next Thursday at 9pm on ITV. There could be loose parallels drawn with Madeleine's case although the Packman case involves one of the few instances of a person convicted of murder in the UK without a body.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 11:18:28 PM
Off topic I know but you could also ask yourself why Kate's recall of Dave's visit to the apartment in the afternoon prior to Madeleine's disappearance was so at odds with his version?
Yes that would be a prime example of conflicting statements but as I asked with that thread that was waiting for approval, there are other people too that don't seem to get any attention. OK I would have limited skill in talking about them.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 11:29:16 PM
"In a recent judgement the English Court of Appeal has not only rejected the Sherlock Holmes doctrine shown above, but also denied that probability can be used as an expression of uncertainty for events that have either happened or not". http://understandinguncertainty.org/court-appeal-bans-bayesian-probability-and-sherlock-holmes
Interesting. I would say one couldn't be certain they had introduced all the possible causes or fully eliminated the impossibles, but it certainly introduces outlier events to consider. I too started off thinking "the parents did it" or "David did it" but these in the end became impossible IMO.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 22, 2016, 11:48:19 PM
What you cannot do is interject defamatory speculation without the slightest evidence to back it up.
Would conflicting statements be considered a "slightest bit of evidence"?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 23, 2016, 12:05:09 AM
Gawd strewth!
Unconventional yes, but very hard working, also new to the forum ... and altho most of us dont agree with much that s/he says, some things are very thought provoking. So that's good.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2016, 04:03:09 AM
Eddie alerts twice in the villa dining area. Immediately before one alert he sniffs something on the top surface of the sideboard
(http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg)
While giving the other alert he sniffs the seat of the dining chair - photo attached...
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 04:31:41 AM
Eddie alerts twice in the villa dining area. Immediately before one alert he sniffs something on the top surface of the sideboard - photo link http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg
While giving the other alert he sniffs the seat of the dining chair - photo attached...
What do you think it implies?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 05:52:57 AM
In my opinion ANY dog would sniff out a dead body, the whole idea that a cadaver dog is trained to alert is to NOT dig but to alert so that the evidence is not contaminated.
How exactly would that work if a body had not been there and just the scent of cadaver? How would they know if when the dog dug there was no body? They wouldn't think 'ah but no doubt there is a scent of cadaver as Eddie is digging' would they? That is why if Eddie didn't bark but played with something, there is no alert.
Anyone digging the spot would soon tell whether the ground had been disturbed or not.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 05:59:21 AM
There was one Cuddlecat, the cadaver dog did not alert to it but played with it. Anything which occurred thereafter was and still is irrelevant. End off!!
How can you be sure of that?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 23, 2016, 08:12:11 AM
the alert is not proof...it isnt even evidence of a cadaver being in that apartment
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
Key questions about the (one and only) cuddle cat:
Why did Eddie play with it?
(In general) is it acceptable that any police dog attending a crime scene should pick stiff up in its mouth and trample all over stuff it tasked to inspect?
Why could Eddie (apparently) find a 'scent' on a toy hidden in a cupboard he could find no hint of when it was in front of his nose, and he could (and did!) pick it up, play with it and toss it in the air?
Was Grime's true motivation (in hiding the toy) embarrassment at the antics of his dog (and a determination to prevent further embarrassment)?
Why did Grime say (in his rogatory interview) that he recommended the dog be forensically examined?
Why was the toy (in fact) returned to the McCanns next day, without, ever, going near the FSS?
Aside from promoting the canard of 'death-scent on the toy' what else emerged from the whole fiasco of cuddle-cat?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2016, 09:05:43 AM
Eddie didn't alert in that area until CC was added there. It's not rocket science. The only change was CC.
1. You bring the dog to an area he has searched and has shown no interest.
2. You add the suspicious item to that safe area (toy is hidden but cupboard slightly open for any scent).
3. This time the dog changes behaviour in that area and alerts.
4. What is your conclusion?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 09:09:04 AM
the alert is not proof...it isnt even evidence of a cadaver being in that apartment
How should I have said it then? What do you think it means? Please tell the forum what you think the alert at the wardrobe in the main bedroom means? Can we say it suggests a cadaver had been in that room at some stage in the past? What did Martin Grimes say about the alert? He's the expert. I have feeling we've been over this before.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 09:27:16 AM
Key questions about the (one and only) cuddle cat:
Why did Eddie play with it?
(In general) is it acceptable that any police dog attending a crime scene (even if Eddie wasn't, then, a police dog; rather, representing a freelance handler) should pick stiff up in its mouth and trample all over stuff it tasked to inspect?
Why could Eddie (apparently) find a 'scent' on a toy hidden in a cupboard he could find no hint of when it was in front of his nose, and he could (and did!) pick it up, play with it and toss it in the air?
Was Grime's true motivation (in hiding the toy) embarrassment at the antics of his dog (and a determination to prevent further embarrassment)?
Why did Grime say (in his rogatory interview) that he recommended the dog be forensically examined?
Why was the toy (in fact) returned to the McCanns next day, without, ever, going near the FSS?
Aside from promoting the canard of 'death-scent on the toy' what else emerged from the whole fiasco of cuddle-cat?
"Why did Eddie play with it?" I noted in the video in the garage where the clothes were all laid out Eddie picked up (played) with several of the clothing items too and these were on items not considered alerts.
"(In general) is it acceptable that any police dog attending a crime scene should pick stuff up in its mouth and trample all over stuff it tasked to inspect?" How would you run the test otherwise?
"Why could Eddie (apparently) find a 'scent' on a toy hidden in a cupboard he could find no hint of when it was in front of his nose, and he could (and did!) pick it up, play with it and toss it in the air?" That is a great question.
"Aside from promoting the canard of 'death-scent on the toy' what else emerged from the whole fiasco of cuddle-cat?" To me it has cast doubt on the veracity of your first conclusion.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 10:59:59 AM
People 'saw' Jean-Paul de Menezes board a train at Stockwell underground tube station wearing a waist-length coat with leads trailing underneath, before he was pinned to the ground and shot.
He was actually wearing a light-weight denim jacket; no leads in sight.
The only bit the witnesses got right was that he was pinned to the ground and shot.
But I don't suppose any of them were lying.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 23, 2016, 11:14:44 AM
So we could say conflicting statements cast suspicion on ... who does the suspicion fall on? Both of them or just the one omitting facts that should have been remembered.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 11:22:27 AM
Key questions about the (one and only) cuddle cat:
Why did Eddie play with it?
(In general) is it acceptable that any police dog attending a crime scene should pick stiff up in its mouth and trample all over stuff it tasked to inspect?
Why could Eddie (apparently) find a 'scent' on a toy hidden in a cupboard he could find no hint of when it was in front of his nose, and he could (and did!) pick it up, play with it and toss it in the air?
Was Grime's true motivation (in hiding the toy) embarrassment at the antics of his dog (and a determination to prevent further embarrassment)?
Why did Grime say (in his rogatory interview) that he recommended the dog be forensically examined?
Why was the toy (in fact) returned to the McCanns next day, without, ever, going near the FSS?
Aside from promoting the canard of 'death-scent on the toy' what else emerged from the whole fiasco of cuddle-cat?
Those are pertinent questions ferryman. Readers should be aware however that the videos now available on the internet have had sequences removed. The most obvious observation however is that Eddie did not alert to Cuddlecat when he first came across him but pulled him out of the toy basket and threw him up in the air before wandering away, consequently no alert.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2016, 11:31:14 AM
And the only toy he did that to was on the missing child's bed at the crime scene.
"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 23, 2016, 11:36:06 AM
And the only toy he did that to was on the missing child's bed at the crime scene.
"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."
It's a surprise Eddie didn't alert to any of the door handles in 5a, the rented villa or the Scenic, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2016, 11:40:31 AM
it of a surprise Eddie didn't alert to any of the door handles in 5a, the rented villa or the Scenic, wouldn't you say?
"The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles."
That includes soft toys.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2016, 12:45:14 PM
"The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles."
That includes soft toys.
The soft toy?
The one Eddie sniffed, picked up and tossed in the air?
Without alerting to it?
Before (apparently, according to the handler) alerting to it (only after it had been hidden in a cupboard)?
Why was Grime's recommendation (that the toy be sent to the FSS for forensic analysis) ignored?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 23, 2016, 12:56:41 PM
"The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles."
That includes soft toys.
Eddie never alerted to Cuddlecat but had he done so it would not be surprising given that Kate was a GP and exposed to human cadaver scent as part of her duties. Little wonder her clothes were contaminated, cadaverine does not wash off.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 23, 2016, 01:10:35 PM
it of a surprise Eddie didn't alert to any of the door handles in 5a, the rented villa or the Scenic, wouldn't you say?
And why did he not alert in the apartment which the McCanns were moved to immediately following Madeleine's disappearance? And why didn't he alert to the clothing in the McCann's rental villa, clothing which he subsequently went on to alert to? What happened to said clothing to render them contaminated after hours earlier being found to be inert?
What an utter shambles, even the Portuguese weren't convinced!
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2016, 01:17:12 PM
Eddie didn't alert in that area until CC was added there. It's not rocket science. The only change was CC.
1. You bring the dog to an area he has searched and has shown no interest.
2. You add the suspicious item to that safe area (toy is hidden but cupboard slightly open for any scent).
3. This time the dog changes behaviour in that area and alerts.
4. What is your conclusion?
That would have been a valid argument had the dog not already ignored cuddle cat (apart as a toy) as demonstrated when he walked past it when it was lying on the floor. We have also seen it in reverse action with Eddie's one and only 'alert' in the garage. This was confirmed by forensic examination of the key fob.
There was no forensic examination of Cuddle Cat.
Therefore, you can believe what you like, but there is no justification for an allegation that the soft toy was the object of interest during Eddie's inspection of the villa.
Eddie alerted outside the door of the Renault
Eddie subsequently alerted to the Renault key fob which had been in the door pocket of the car when it had been removed from the vehicle
Eddie did not alert again to the vehicle once the key fob had been removed
Forensic testing matched cellular material on the key fob to Gerald McCann
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 01:28:41 PM
The more I read about the inspections again the more bizarre they become. The question really should be, when is an alert not an alert?
Eddie's reactions during the inspections were varied. They consisted of walking or running about sniffing the air, lifting objects and tossing them about, licking objects and finally sitting down while raising his head and barking. On many occasions the dog was called back to investigate a target already known to the dogs handler, this happened with the McCann's hire car and with Cuddlecat in the rented villa.
Are we to believe or infer that all these goings on represented some sort of alert?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2016, 01:40:39 PM
Eddie never alerted to Cuddlecat but had he done so it would not be surprising given that Kate was a GP and exposed to human cadaver scent as part of her duties. Little wonder her clothes were contaminated, cadaverine does not wash off.
Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Martin Grime, rogatory interview.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 01:56:29 PM
It must be remembered too that cadaver dogs alert to human saliva. From my experiences of children and soft toys the former tend to suck the latter constantly so little wonder that Cuddlecat had saliva on him. The rest as they say is history.
And to quote Mr Grime, "...on their own the alerts have no evidential reliability" or to put it another way, it was unknown what Eddie was alerting to, the possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2016, 01:58:20 PM
The more I read about the inspections again the more bizarre they become. The question really should be, when is an alert not an alert?
Eddie's reactions during the inspections were varied. They consisted of walking or running about sniffing the air, lifting objects and tossing them about, licking objects and finally sitting down while raising his head and barking. On many occasions the dog was called back to investigate a target already known to the dogs handler, this happened with the McCann's hire car and with Cuddlecat in the rented villa.
Are we to believe or infer that all these goings on represented some sort of alert?
Was CuddleCat ever anything other than a device ?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 02:56:55 PM
The more I read about the inspections again the more bizarre they become. The question really should be, when is an alert not an alert?
Eddie's reactions during the inspections were varied. They consisted of walking or running about sniffing the air, lifting objects and tossing them about, licking objects and finally sitting down while raising his head and barking. On many occasions the dog was called back to investigate a target already known to the dogs handler, this happened with the McCann's hire car and with Cuddlecat in the rented villa.
Are we to believe or infer that all these goings on represented some sort of alert?
it really is quite simple the job of the dog is to find evidence as grime has said in the article you quoted. Its important to call the dog back to suspected sites to make sure no evidence is missed....no evidence was found. the alerts themselves are really meaningless...it is what is physically found that is important
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2016, 05:25:25 PM
it really is quite simple the job of the dog is to find evidence as grime has said in the article you quoted. It's important to call the dog back to suspected sites to make sure no evidence is missed....no evidence was found. the alerts themselves are really meaningless...it is what is physically found that is important
Not sure about the part I underline.
Problem with calling a dog back is that the dog may get fed up, and that may prompt a false alert.
I would say Grime's modus operandi (in PdL) maximised the chances of just exactly that happening.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 23, 2016, 05:32:41 PM
it really is quite simple the job of the dog is to find evidence as grime has said in the article you quoted. Its important to call the dog back to suspected sites to make sure no evidence is missed....no evidence was found. the alerts themselves are really meaningless...it is what is physically found that is important
A confession would be as good as evidence - right?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 23, 2016, 08:18:13 PM
6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN
- cadaver odour dog: * in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY * in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE * in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family).
There still however was insufficient evidence to proffer any charge.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2016, 11:39:03 AM
6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN
- cadaver odour dog: * in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY * in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE * in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family).
There still however was insufficient evidence to proffer any charge.
so cadaver odour was detected on the toy but the PJ did not bother to carry out any forensic tests....seems more than a bit strange...
does anyone know if they carried out tests on the clothing
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 24, 2016, 11:39:28 AM
6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN
- cadaver odour dog: * in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY * in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE * in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family).
There still however was insufficient evidence to proffer any charge.
No evidence whatever, other than of a disgraceful performance of dog-handler who (largely) ignored Harrison and did his own thing (in preparation for another occasion and a different case on a different continent, America, with another dog, Morse).
That occasion was the investigation into the murder of Bianca Jones, for which D'Andre Lane was convicted.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 12:13:26 PM
At 1:47 into the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg [note: set it on 25% playback speed] Eddie goes beside the couch and reaches for a toy on top of a metal canister and tips the canister over and stuff is spilt onto the floor. Is this the incident that is described as "Eddie playing with CC?"
Edited: previously I said: "What I have noted is that Eddie pulls an item of clothing out of the canister ahead of knocking the canister over. If we say he alerted to Cuddle Cat we'd also have to say he alerted to the clothing also. I would therefore have to say "no it is not an alert"." Reviewing this several times what I thought was clothing was his floppy ear. So he carried the toy but he carried clothing as well. No indication IMO.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 12:25:32 PM
6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN
- cadaver odour dog: * in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY * in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE * in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family).
There still however was insufficient evidence to proffer any charge.
The author obviously didn't understand what substances Eddie alerted to.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 24, 2016, 12:30:14 PM
No evidence whatever, other than of a disgraceful performance of dog-handler who (largely) ignored Harrison and did his own thing (in preparation for another occasion and a different case on a different continent, America, with another dog, Morse).
That occasion was the investigation into the murder of Bianca Jones, for which D'Andre Lane was convicted.
"Press this button here and that motor over there will fire up". It's good to see no cowboys have been fiddling with the wiring or interlocks... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 24, 2016, 12:34:10 PM
The author obviously didn't understand what substances Eddie alerted to.
Did the author have to? If I ask you to sit looking at a pressure indicator and tell me when it goes over 100 on the dial you don't have to know whether it's bar, kPa, kgf/cm2, or psi. You just need to know it's gone over 100.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 12:40:27 PM
Did the author have to? If I ask you to sit looking at a pressure indicator and tell me when it goes over 100 on the dial you don't have to know whether it's bar, kPa, kgf/cm2, or psi. You just need to know it's gone over 100.
To state that cadaver odour was found anywhere was incorrect, false and misleading.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 12:48:27 PM
To state that cadaver odour was found anywhere was incorrect, false and misleading.
Didn't he bark (twice) when near the sideboard? 3:49 shows a dining room table 3:53 sideboard bench unit beside table 4:07 first indication to the top of the sideboard bench 4:27 second indication near sideboard bench behind table
We don't see a shot of cuddle cat being put into the sideboard unit before the barking do we. So he was moved from what looked like a lounge to the dining room sideboard but don't see when or by who. That could still be a sequence designed to fool the future arquidos into making a confession.
So is this the same dining room sideboard that CC gets put into later?
3:24 MG picks up pink blanket which has NOT created an alert but it is Eddie who has dragged blanket out of wardrobe. 5:37 same table cloth and sideboard as earlier. 5:45 Martin Grimes open s door revealing CC in base of sideboard unit. If he alerted to anything it was on top of the bench or sideboard and not in the cabinet part.
Is that a sound observation?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 01:59:28 PM
Have a look at 4:06 at how much opening the bifold doors are at the righthand end of kitchen unit (sideboard) to 5:38 when MG goes back to the unit to open the doors to show Cuddle Cat inside. It is clear that the doors have been tampered with as they are more open on this view. It is an obvious ruse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 24, 2016, 02:31:30 PM
Robittybob1, Eddie barked in the vicinity of a sideboard ... not a sink unit.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 02:32:56 PM
You obviously don't understand how these dogs are trained then. The positive alert as indicated by the drivers door of the Renault Grand Scenic hire car is correct, anything else is not an alert. Please do not blur the issue.
Even then, there is a small problem... the last person to have been in the car was a police officer. AFAIK, the car wasn't towed.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 07:41:48 PM
Question to Grimes and Amaral: If it was a ruse to force the arguidos into making a confession did they miss actual evidence with Eddie absolutely positively marking the top of that sideboard? I wouldn't trust this video as being anything thing but a staged.
0:36 seconds into the video is the first shot of this third person.
2:39 seconds into the video is the 2nd shot of this third person. Is MG the person by the window? So who is producing the silhouette that passes in front of the camera? This person (that passes in front of the camera) becomes MG so the person by the window was not MG. Eddie actually sniffs this person's hand. This third person does not signal the dog and seems a little scared of Eddie as he pulls his hand back when sniffed.
4:59 seconds into the video is the 3rd shot of this third person. His socks are not a white as Martin's. He also seems to have been on the wrong side of the camera if it was meant to be Martin. Follow the dog as he goes through a short passage and meets up with Martin at the next room but the person seen in the same sequence of film has been left behind, so that proves there was a third person there.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 07:44:15 PM
Even then, there is a small problem... the last person to have been in the car was a police officer. AFAIK, the car wasn't towed.
Well I think you'd find they wore clean gloves. Like the third person in the Villa film is wearing gloves and so is MG. But if you could prove they didn't that might be a different story.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 08:28:57 PM
Have a look at 4:06 at how much opening the bifold doors are at the righthand end of kitchen unit (sideboard) to 5:38 when MG goes back to the unit to open the doors to show Cuddle Cat inside. It is clear that the doors have been tampered with as they are more open on this view. It is an obvious ruse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg
Yes, I recall noticing that when this issue was discussed some time ago. There is no doubt a lot went on behind the scenes when the camera was not running.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 08:33:45 PM
Didn't he bark (twice) when near the sideboard? 3:49 shows a dining room table 3:53 sideboard bench unit beside table 4:07 first indication to the top of the sideboard bench 4:27 second indication near sideboard bench behind table
We don't see a shot of cuddle cat being put into the sideboard unit before the barking do we. So he was moved from what looked like a lounge to the dining room sideboard but don't see when or by who. That could still be a sequence designed to fool the future arquidos into making a confession.
So is this the same dining room sideboard that CC gets put into later?
3:24 MG picks up pink blanket which has NOT created an alert but it is Eddie who has dragged blanket out of wardrobe. 5:37 same table cloth and sideboard as earlier. 5:45 Martin Grimes open s door revealing CC in base of sideboard unit. If he alerted to anything it was on top of the bench or sideboard and not in the cabinet part.
Is that a sound observation?
As stated earlier in this thread, it is my suspicion that Cuddlecat was put on top of the sideboard after the dog lifted it out of the toy basket and before it was placed inside the unit, thus why the dog alerted to the top of said sideboard before alerting to its slightly opened front door.
An exercise in futility?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 24, 2016, 08:40:43 PM
That's correct Carana, all the vehicles were driven to the underground car park, i also recall one had an accident on the way...oops!
The vehicle owned by Robert Murat (and hence never 'inspected').
Of course, I put the word 'inspected' in inverted commas because there was never more than one vehicle of the slightest interest in the 'inspection': the Renault Scenic, hired 3 weeks after Madeleine's abduction.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 08:44:26 PM
Question to Grimes and Amaral: If it was a ruse to force the arguidos into making a confession did they miss actual evidence with Eddie absolutely positively marking the top of that sideboard? I wouldn't trust this video as being anything thing but a staged.
0:36 seconds into the video is the first shot of this third person.
2:39 seconds into the video is the 2nd shot of this third person. Is MG the person by the window? So who is producing the silhouette that passes in front of the camera? This person (that passes in front of the camera) becomes MG so the person by the window was not MG. Eddie actually sniffs this person's hand. This third person does not signal the dog and seems a little scared of Eddie as he pulls his hand back when sniffed.
4:59 seconds into the video is the 3rd shot of this third person. His socks are not a white as Martin's. He also seems to have been on the wrong side of the camera if it was meant to be Martin. Follow the dog as he goes through a short passage and meets up with Martin at the next room but the person seen in the same sequence of film has been left behind, so that proves there was a third person there.
There were several people involved in these inspections, English police officers Martin Grime and Mark Harrison and several Portuguese police personnel.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 08:47:36 PM
There were several people involved in these inspections, English police officers Martin Grime and Mark Harrison and several Portuguese police personnel.
So that person could be Mark Harrison. I don't know but what I do know is that there is a third person there who is kept out of shot most of the time.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 24, 2016, 09:07:08 PM
Yes, I recall noticing that when this issue was discussed some time ago. There is no doubt a lot went on behind the scenes when the camera was not running.
Definitely has to be considered. But you'd think there would have to be a purpose. Luckily they can't plant a cadaver.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 24, 2016, 11:41:42 PM
As stated earlier in this thread, it is my suspicion that Cuddlecat was put on top of the sideboard after the dog lifted it out of the toy basket and before it was placed inside the unit, thus why the dog alerted to the top of said sideboard before alerting to its slightly opened front door.
An exercise in futility?
No John, that is wrong.
Eddie hadn't alerted to Cuddlecat when he played with him. If CCat had been placed on top of the counter pile, then he wouldn't have alerted to his scent then either
I am almost certain that Eddie alerted to the piece of paper on top of the pile of folders / folded clothes. His nose almost touched the paper and was directed at it.
The pertinent questions are,
1) What was on the paper to give out the scent that Eddies alerted to ? 2) Who placed the sheet of paper there ? 3) Why ? and 4) Who put CCat in the cupboard?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 25, 2016, 01:05:13 AM
Eddie hadn't alerted to Cuddlecat when he played with him. If CCat had been placed on top of the counter pile, then he wouldn't have alerted to his scent then either
I am almost certain that Eddie alerted to the piece of paper on top of the pile of folders / folded clothes. His nose almost touched the paper and was directed at it.
The pertinent questions are,
1) What was on the paper to give out the scent that Eddies alerted to ? 2) Who placed the sheet of paper there ? 3) Why ? and 4) Who put CCat in the cupboard?
You're missing the point Sadie. Eddie was seeking out Cuddlecat and not the elusive scent he was tasked to find.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 25, 2016, 01:11:41 AM
You're missing the point Sadie. Eddie was seeking out Cuddlecat and not the elusive scent he was tasked to find.
That is really trying to understand how the dog thinks. There were several times before where he just ran past CC without even turning his head. So I tend to disagree with your hypothesis but even I have no idea of knowing how we could really understand what he is thinking.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2016, 03:34:40 AM
Poor Martin Grime. Never can he have thought that his trip to Praia da Luz would be analysed and found wanting to such a degree.
Will The Justice Forum's research be used in future court cases? Is it already, even?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 04:00:33 AM
That is really trying to understand how the dog thinks. There were several times before where he just ran past CC without even turning his head. So I tend to disagree with your hypothesis but even I have no idea of knowing how we could really understand what he is thinking.
1:48 Eddie reaches into the canister to pick up CC to examine it. 1:49 The canister tips over and CC is lying on the floor the canister is moving. 1:49 Eddie stands back until he has determined whether Cuddle cat is alive or dead. His behaviour is like a dog that has been clawed by a cat at some in the past. "Playing it safe". 1:51 Eddie is now sure that the cat is safe to pick up and carries it in order to smell it for cadaver odour, moving a few feet forward (as seen at other times with items of fabric).* 1:52 he has dropped CC and back to the task of finding cadaver odour elsewhere. 2:02 first pass of CC and Eddie is not even looking at it. 2:09 Second pass of CC and Eddie is not even looking at it. 2:11 off to another room continuing his search.
* I experimented with my own hands (being a bit smelly as I'm often handling dirty things)
1. I could smell my hands at rest. 2. I could smell them having a stronger odour when I walked forward.
The forward motion is like having a breeze lifting off the scent on the surface of my hands. So I suggest carrying fabric objects forward is a technique Eddie has learned to improve his detection rate.
Conclusion: Eddie didn't play or indicate on Cuddle Cat.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 25, 2016, 12:06:16 PM
The truth is that only those present know what went on behind the scenes. For example, we don't know if Eddie had contact with Cuddlecat before he was seen lifting the toy out of the basket and throwing him across the floor, I certainly have my own suspicions about that one. The point is that by the time Eddie came back into the lounge he was very aware of CC and of his scent. When asked to then search, was the dog actually in tracker mode, had CC become the prey?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2016, 12:28:49 PM
The truth is that only those present know what went on behind the scenes. For example, we don't know if Eddie had contact with Cuddlecat before he was seen lifting the toy out of the basket and throwing him across the floor, I certainly have my own suspicions about that one. The point is that by the time Eddie came back into the lounge he was very aware of CC and of his scent. When asked to then search, was the dog actually in tracker mode, had CC become the prey?
Just a thought, John.
If Eddie had alerted to a residual scent on clothing or Cuddle Cat in the villa, would it have been admissible in court?
It wasn't a random search in an effort to find a missing person as the earlier searches using the Portuguese dogs were. It was a targeted search looking for evidence of Madeleine's death in places she had never been while in Luz. Apparently based on police suspicion of her parents.
Despite Madeleine's parents not being officially arguidos at the time of the search perhaps they should have been; which would have made it appropriate for their lawyer to be in attendance at the villa.
I wonder if Robert Murat's lawyer was in attendance during the searches in Casa Liliana? It could explain why edited copies of the search videos with a McCann connection were published on the internet and none of the searches of the Murat residence have ever seen the light of day.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2016, 12:36:14 PM
1:48 Eddie reaches into the canister to pick up CC to examine it. 1:49 The canister tips over and CC is lying on the floor the canister is moving. 1:49 Eddie stands back until he has determined whether Cuddle cat is alive or dead. His behaviour is like a dog that has been clawed by a cat at some in the past. "Playing it safe". 1:51 Eddie is now sure that the cat is safe to pick up and carries it in order to smell it for cadaver odour, moving a few feet forward (as seen at other times with items of fabric).* 1:52 he has dropped CC and back to the task of finding cadaver odour elsewhere. 2:02 first pass of CC and Eddie is not even looking at it. 2:09 Second pass of CC and Eddie is not even looking at it. 2:11 off to another room continuing his search.
* I experimented with my own hands (being a bit smelly as I'm often handling dirty things)
1. I could smell my hands at rest. 2. I could smell them having a stronger odour when I walked forward.
The forward motion is like having a breeze lifting off the scent on the surface of my hands. So I suggest carrying fabric objects forward is a technique Eddie has learned to improve his detection rate.
Conclusion: Eddie didn't play or indicate on Cuddle Cat.
I still find a potentially logical explanation... Kate washed CC as it was smelly. Well, it would have been if she'd been clutching it in her sweaty hands for months.
Post-wash, it may well have smelled pleasant to humans, but the anaerobic decomposition of sweat and skin cells deep into the fabric may well have made Eddie alert. Ask anyone who's had to wear a cast over summer. The pong can be overwhelming, yet no one has died. It's still all a whiff of human decomp to the dog...
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
I still find a potentially logical explanation... Kate washed CC as it was smelly. Well, it would have been if she'd been clutching it in her sweaty hands for months.
Post-wash, it may well have smelled pleasant to humans, but the anaerobic decomposition of sweat and skin cells deep into the fabric may well have made Eddie alert. Ask anyone who's had to wear a cast over summer. The pong can be overwhelming, yet no one has died. It's still all a whiff of human decomp to the dog...
I am feeling a bit frustrated because the effort I have had to put in to show that the Cuddle Cat taken from Kate , the washed one, is not the same one we see in this video, and still no one has seen the interesting situation that that switch created. Had they not switched them the result might have been different, depending on the thoroughness of the laundering.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2016, 12:47:48 PM
If Eddie had alerted to a residual scent on clothing or Cuddle Cat in the villa, would it have been admissible in court?
It wasn't a random search in an effort to find a missing person as the earlier searches using the Portuguese dogs were. It was a targeted search looking for evidence of Madeleine's death in places she had never been while in Luz. Apparently based on police suspicion of her parents.
Despite Madeleine's parents not being officially arguidos at the time of the search perhaps they should have been; which would have made it appropriate for their lawyer to be in attendance at the villa.
I wonder if Robert Murat's lawyer was in attendance during the searches in Casa Liliana? It could explain why edited copies of the search videos with a McCann connection were published on the internet and none of the searches of the Murat residence have ever seen the light of day.
That's a possibility. The other is that there was no point (from the point of view of trying to browbeat the parents into a confession) in showing what was presumably a lengthy section of film in which there were no alerts. It may well have contravened PT privacy laws as well, although I'm not sure of that in terms of a criminal investigation.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2016, 12:48:50 PM
I am feeling a bit frustrated because the effort I have had to put in to show that the Cuddle Cat taken from Kate , the washed one, is not the same one we see in this video, and still no one has seen the interesting situation that that switch created. Had they not switched them the result might have been different, depending on the thoroughness of the laundering.
I'll have to read back.... I can't see what you mean by a switch.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 12:53:29 PM
That's a possibility. The other is that there was no point (from the point of view of trying to browbeat the parents into a confession) in showing what was presumably a lengthy section of film in which there were no alerts. It may well have contravened PT privacy laws as well, although I'm not sure of that in terms of a criminal investigation.
Good point for Kate speaks of being shown something. She obviously believed it to be true but as she said "I had no explanation for it, but neither did they". That is one of the most memorable lines in this drama. A truly baffling situation for everyone.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 25, 2016, 12:57:49 PM
I am feeling a bit frustrated because the effort I have had to put in to show that the Cuddle Cat taken from Kate , the washed one, is not the same one we see in this video, and still no one has seen the interesting situation that that switch created. Had they not switched them the result might have been different, depending on the thoroughness of the laundering.
That's because there only ever was one Cuddlecat and not two as you suggested and thereafter failed to prove.
The toy would have had all sorts of human scent on it from tears, sweat or even saliva. We know Eddie reacted to those things.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 01:12:40 PM
That's because there only ever was one Cuddlecat and not two as you suggested and thereafter failed to prove.
The toy would have had all sorts of human scent on it from tears, sweat or even saliva. We know Eddie reacted to those things.
I gave you the pictures of the two cuddle cats. I would not accept them as being the same object. I've shown there was a third person there during the filming who they never identified. Maybe he could have made a statement verifying there was no switch. We also saw the bifold doors were not returned to the same position both times Eddie checked the sideboard so Cuddle cat was not in the sideboard when the actual alert happened. If you don't accept those findings I am doubly frustrated. No one has come back to me and disputed my findings, but no one says they accepted them either (John got close though). So really you are all ignoring the facts of the case.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
I gave you the pictures of the two cuddle cats. I would not accept them as being the same object. I've shown there was a third person there during the filming who they never identified. Maybe he could have made a statement verifying there was no switch. We also saw the bifold doors were not returned to the same position both times Eddie checked the sideboard so Cuddle cat was not in the sideboard when the actual alert happened. If you don't accept those findings I am doubly frustrated. No one has come back to me and disputed my findings, but no one says they accepted them either (John got close though). So really you are all ignoring the facts of the case.
No. You are making up Facts.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
Discovering errors or discovering facts as long as they are facts, they are OK.
In Your Opinion.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2016, 06:45:56 PM
I have been wondering, Eddie first ignored cuddlecat then alerted to it but the video has been edited. Could there have been two Eddies. I'm calling this my new theory
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 25, 2016, 07:11:35 PM
I have been wondering, Eddie first ignored cuddlecat then alerted to it but the video has been edited. Could there have been two Eddies. I'm calling this my new theory
"For God's sake I do not look like my cousin!" Eddie
PS They aren't that good at spelling though! Title of pic was supposed to have been: Keela (left) and Eddie (right) wondrous pair 'I do not look like my sister'.jpg
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 25, 2016, 08:11:26 PM
I have been wondering, Eddie first ignored cuddlecat then alerted to it but the video has been edited. Could there have been two Eddies. I'm calling this my new theory
There are at least Eddie Costa, Eddie Condon and Eddie Cochrane ..................and that's only a selection from the Cs...................... 8(>((
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2016, 11:30:06 PM
(snip) ... a third person there during the filming who they never identified. ... (snip)
The 4 people present during the filming at 27 Rua da Flores are identified: Paiva, Pereira, Harrison, Grime. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P8/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2099.jpg (Some further officers and a translator also attended for shorter periods).
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2016, 11:43:02 PM
As I said there were two alerts in the dining area. Here is the other alert (this is different to the alert to to the top of sideboard). This photo shows Eddie barking a few seconds after locating the scent.
By going backwards from there, frame by frame, it may be possible to see where he sniffs just before alerting - I will try to post a photo of this tomorrow
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 12:08:22 AM
@Pegasus This has probably been answered before, but do you know which company manufactured Cuddlecat? I can't see anything identical on Plush toys or Google images.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 12:29:28 AM
The 4 people present during the filming at 27 Rua da Flores are identified: Paiva, Pereira, Harrison, Grime. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P8/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2099.jpg (Some further officers and a translator also attended for shorter periods).
"Soft toy" still only "possibly belonging to MBM". The PJ weren't certain who owned it and we can't be either. Maximum of 3 persons at anyone time. Maybe one stood guard so no one saw what was happening i.e there are no independent witnesses.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 12:49:39 AM
@Pegasus This has probably been answered before, but do you know which company manufactured Cuddlecat? I can't see anything identical on Plush toys or Google images.
Don't know, someone suggested russberrie or keekoscene but can't trace it Misty
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 12:58:44 AM
"Soft toy" still only "possibly belonging to MBM". The PJ weren't certain who owned it and we can't be either. Maximum of 3 persons at anyone time. Maybe one stood guard so no one saw what was happening i.e there are no independent witnesses.
No, soft toy belonged to her, pj havenever said they wrent certain who owned it, and yes we can be sure No one stood anyguard, all people at searches were legit and named
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2016, 01:06:50 AM
@Pegasus This has probably been answered before, but do you know which company manufactured Cuddlecat? I can't see anything identical on Plush toys or Google images.
Mothercare
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 01:14:28 AM
Don't know, someone suggested russberrie or keekoscene but can't trace it Misty
Thanks anyway. That's strange, considering Metado 3 were supposedly given 40 of the same toy. I'll have to have a look on Google Netherlands, see if it came from over there.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 01:20:36 AM
I am feeling a bit frustrated because the effort I have had to put in to show that the Cuddle Cat taken from Kate , the washed one, is not the same one we see in this video, and still no one has seen the interesting situation that that switch created. Had they not switched them the result might have been different, depending on the thoroughness of the laundering.
So what was the source of the middle pic please? Does it relate to the case? (Just the run of the mill cuddle cat) Is the first picture a still photo from the file or just screen shot of the video? I recognize the last pic ok.
The differences I note: 1. Different colour
2. No markings visible on the face ofthe CC on the one Martin is holding up.
3. The McCanns went to Fatima after Madeleine went missing so every one of the McCann's cuddle cats would be without the Fatima ribbons on the 3rd. So when the PJ took Cuddle cat into custody would he still have had those ribbons. I don't see them on the one Martin is holding up.
4 Deleted
5. The ends of the bow tie are different Frayed on the one Martin is holding up. Square ends on the one Kate took to Rome. This seems definite.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 06:35:06 AM
I see the middle photo is attached to an article
Quote
Police to seize Cuddle Cat The suggestion that Madeleine's favourite soft toy might be taken into police custody after 134 days raises the investigation to new levels of farce. Either the claim is untrue - or Portuguese detectives are desperate to make up for their early failures in recovering potentially vital DNA and forensic evidence. Dr McCann and her husband say Madeleine was tucked up in bed with the toy when she went to sleep that night on May 3. After she disappeared, the cat was found in the bedroom of the family's holiday apartment on a ledge too high for Madeleine to reach.
I see the middle photo is attached to an article That cat sure gets around, On shelves, on the bed, on the pillow and under the blankets, I'm losing track.
thought you were within hours of cracking this case, or so you intimated a couple of weeks ago. How are you getting on?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 08:43:20 AM
thought you were within hours of cracking this case, or so you intimated a couple of weeks ago. How are you getting on?
I'm just a bit burnt out. I just need to slow down a bit. It is all good. It is so hard to say whether they were different CCs or not. In the end I just think there was a poor chain of evidence. The video didn't force a confession so they gave Kate's cuddle cat back. It would be impossible for the PJ to prove: 1. That they hadn't switched them. 2. That they had not put Cuddle cat into an area where an alert had previously been elicited.
So I'm feeling a bit beaten over this aspect. But my theory doesn't need switched Cuddle cats. But it will need some evidence at some stage.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2016, 11:41:00 AM
I'm just a bit burnt out. I just need to slow down a bit. It is all good. It is so hard to say whether they were different CCs or not. In the end I just think there was a poor chain of evidence. The video didn't force a confession so they gave Kate's cuddle cat back. It would be impossible for the PJ to prove they hadn't switched them. That they had not put Cuddle cat into an area where an alert had been elicited. So I'm feeling a bit beaten over this aspect. But my theory doesn't need switched Cuddle cats. But it will need some evidence at some stage.
Robbity, I am not surprised that you are feeling burnt out. You have worked extra-ordinarily hard and in depth.
You have raised a number of points that I, nor I suspect others, have thought of. We all need to analyse in more detail, as you have done.
I would like to say that although I dont follow or believe in a good deal that you say, you have made us look at the facts much more carefully. The myths and misunderstandings are getting sorted ... and that is a major plus.
Take your time, draw a breath or two, but carry on .... it is healthy that you throw out these challenges to us . But be prepared for disbelief and strong reactions at some of the things that you say. Try not to take it personally
Good wishes, sadie
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 12:12:19 PM
Thanks Sadie.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 01:58:33 PM
I'm just a bit burnt out. I just need to slow down a bit. It is all good. It is so hard to say whether they were different CCs or not. In the end I just think there was a poor chain of evidence. The video didn't force a confession so they gave Kate's cuddle cat back. It would be impossible for the PJ to prove: 1. That they hadn't switched them. 2. That they had not put Cuddle cat into an area where an alert had previously been elicited.
So I'm feeling a bit beaten over this aspect. But my theory doesn't need switched Cuddle cats. But it will need some evidence at some stage.
I will drop suggestions of there being two cuddle cats but I am still sticking to the idea that the check in Villa with cadaver dogs was a ruse to force a confession out of Kate by shocking her.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2016, 03:25:28 PM
I will drop suggestions of there being two cuddle cats but I am still sticking to the idea that the check in Villa with cadaver dogs was a ruse to force a confession out of Kate by shocking her.
What do you make of the check (following) in the gym?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 05:31:30 PM
Where did you say they were being sold? You mentioned something like a fair in April 2007 can you recall that?
I now agree that she had this toy since a young age (the source you posted KM book = correct IMO).
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 05:39:55 PM
An identical cat (described as dating from Mar 2005) is for sale secondhand in Spain http://www.todocoleccion.net/juguetes-antiguos-ositos/muneca-peluche-muneco-gato-gatito-cuddle-cat~x50016271#descripcion
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2016, 06:32:23 PM
I will drop suggestions of there being two cuddle cats but I am still sticking to the idea that the check in Villa with cadaver dogs was a ruse to force a confession out of Kate by shocking her.
Examination of the reason (for the inspection in the villa) is certainly one worth examination.
The first point to note is that Madeleine never lived there.
The second is that clothing examined (several months after Madeleine was abducted) was not kept in some special storage awaiting inspection. It was in common circulation as clothing is: worn, washed, packed in suitcases, folded away on wardrobe shelves (etc,)
What was the purpose of any inspection?
Remember that any (uncorroborated) reaction (of a cadaver dog) is worthless as evidence (no reflection on the dog; just the position in English law). So what were they looking for?
Minute traces of Madeleine's blood would have been meaningless; plenty of innocent explanations of how it might have got there; while deposits in quantities visible to the naked human eye would obviously not have required a dog to find them.
Yet the clothing was inspected.
Why?
And (exactly the same clothing!), not reacted to in the villa, was then transported in bog-standard cardboard boxes (with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination; not that that mattered) to a different premises for a second inspection in the gym.
Again, why?
I don't think there's too much doubt as to the answer.
Oh, and cuddlecat?
I don't think it was ever in the script that the toy should have been, specifically, the subject of inspection, perched on a stand from which Eddie knocked it off (entirely unscripted).
From there, Grime kind of made it up as he went along.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 07:28:45 PM
An identical cat (described as dating from Mar 2005) is for sale secondhand in Spain http://www.todocoleccion.net/juguetes-antiguos-ositos/muneca-peluche-muneco-gato-gatito-cuddle-cat~x50016271#descripcion
That's a great find Pegasus (as per usual). Did you crop the original CC picture to try to get a match or add + symbol between Spanish words on Spanish Google? I had no luck on Dutch, South African, Canadian or Irish Google just typing in various word arrangements. (then I gave up for the night)
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 07:35:50 PM
That's a great find Pegasus (as per usual). Did you crop the original CC picture to try to get a match or add + symbol between Spanish words on Spanish Google? I had no luck on Dutch, South African, Canadian or Irish Google just typing in various word arrangements. (then I gave up for the night)
searched for cuddle cat peluche
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 07:43:36 PM
OK, thanks for that. I will have another mooch around other various countries' Google again later. The toy doesn't appear to have been popular or mass-produced.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 07:46:11 PM
Here IMO is the exact moment of the other alert (different to the sideboard alert). Eddie's body is at 45deg he has leaned up to place nose above table height (at far side of table) A fraction of a second after this sniff Eddie barks loudly (alerts). Source 4:23.19 in video
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 26, 2016, 07:54:05 PM
So what was the source of the middle pic please? Does it relate to the case? (Just the run of the mill cuddle cat)
Now what would be the point of posting a picture of just any old Cuddlecat? Just out of interest can you find another Cuddlecat anywhere on the www which looks exactly like Madeleine's?
As requested here is a wider view of the middle photo showing the one and only Cuddlecat with Kate and Gerry.
OK, thanks for that. I will have another mooch around other various countries' Google again later. The toy doesn't appear to have been popular or mass-produced.
I wondered if it was a product of 'Jellycat' I have bought similar articles online they do all animals. Can't find that particular one though but perhaps they have stopped making it.
Ad · www.Jellycat.com
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on July 26, 2016, 08:11:47 PM
An identical cat (described as dating from Mar 2005) is for sale secondhand in Spain http://www.todocoleccion.net/juguetes-antiguos-ositos/muneca-peluche-muneco-gato-gatito-cuddle-cat~x50016271#descripcion
Good find pegasus. CC must have been purchased abroad at one time.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 08:15:10 PM
Now what would be the point of posting a picture of just any old Cuddlecat? Just out of interest can you find another Cuddlecat anywhere on the www which looks exactly like Madeleine's?
I have conceded there is only one cuddle cat, but I still maintain there were no (ZERO) EVRD alerts made on it.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 26, 2016, 09:15:04 PM
An identical cat (described as dating from Mar 2005) is for sale secondhand in Spain http://www.todocoleccion.net/juguetes-antiguos-ositos/muneca-peluche-muneco-gato-gatito-cuddle-cat~x50016271#descripcion
I have just purchased it. As well as I could understanding Portuguese.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2016, 09:55:11 PM
So you got that far into the video without dozing off. You must be getting better sleep than me. I'll try and have look but could you repost the link again please.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 11:05:44 PM
I have just purchased it. As well as I could understanding Portuguese.
Possibly the company name will be on the label.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 11:13:56 PM
IMO the two alerts in the villa were not to the cat - one alert was to something on top of sideboard, and one alert was to something on top of breakfast table plastic cover.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 11:22:58 PM
Here IMO is the exact moment of the other alert (different to the sideboard alert). Eddie's body is at 45deg he has leaned up to place nose above table height (at far side of table) A fraction of a second after this sniff Eddie barks loudly (alerts). Source 4:23.19 in video
Just before that, didn't the handler walk part way around the table, stop at the very place Eddie put his nose up to & then retrace his steps back to the side of the cameraman? What was the point of that little exercise?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 11:24:22 PM
Is it possible there is a pile of washed folded clothing on the breakfast table under those two white pillows?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2016, 11:37:39 PM
We know that the clothing items we are looking for (alerted to later at gym) were located near those pillows we see on breakfast table during Eddie's search of villa (because they were put into same box).
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 26, 2016, 11:49:31 PM
I wondered if it was a product of 'Jellycat' I have bought similar articles online they do all animals. Can't find that particular one though but perhaps they have stopped making it.
Ad · www.Jellycat.com
All their soft toys appear to have the same black beady eyes. CC's eye design seems pretty unique.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 27, 2016, 12:03:21 AM
Just before that, didn't the handler walk part way around the table, stop at the very place Eddie put his nose up to & then retrace his steps back to the side of the cameraman? What was the point of that little exercise?
I watch exclusively the dog, Misty, not the people. Eddie leans up to sniff just above breakfast table then immediately (within a split second) alerts. This alert lasts about 14 seconds BTW. Eddie had walked behind this table before but this is the first time he leaned up to breakfast table top therefore the source was on top of table (or possibly on top of chair seat) IMO.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 12:56:00 AM
I watch exclusively the dog, Misty, not the people. Eddie leans up to sniff just above breakfast table then immediately (within a split second) alerts. This alert lasts about 14 seconds BTW. Eddie had walked behind this table before but this is the first time he leaned up to breakfast table top therefore the source was on top of table (or possibly on top of chair seat) IMO.
I agree with your analysis of the alert - but watch the handler beforehand closely. If the dog had walked past the table & chair before & not alerted...............
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:24 AM
Those pillows look pretty flat to the table top so, imo, no, there was no pile of washing underneath them.
The end that is furthest from camera of the right pillow is higher up so it is possible there are some clothing items beneath it IMO.
BTW this photo shows the first time Eddie sniffs the table top. A moment later he sniffs the table top a second time and alerts.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 11:50:04 AM
Re the top of the breakfast table and the dining chair. The search by Eddie was late daytime 2nd Aug. What items had been on that table earlier in that day 2nd Aug, before the police team arrived ...
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
I agree with your analysis of the alert - but watch the handler beforehand closely ... (snip)
IMO the handler is simply instructing the dog to walk behind the table again. The handler does not prompt the dog to check the table top. The dog makes his own decision to lean up and sniff at table top level. Good, because by leaning up (audio front paws on chair seat), he detects the scent he is trained to find and alerts. BTW at the moment of this alert, the handler is beckoning the dog to examine the left sideboard door. The dog correctly ignores the handler, follows his nose, sniffs at table top level, and alerts. This is a huge alert - the barking lasts for 14 seconds.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 27, 2016, 07:44:09 PM
IMO the handler is simply instructing the dog to walk behind the table again. The handler does not prompt the dog to check the table top. The dog makes his own decision to lean up and sniff at table top level. Good, because by leaning up (audio front paws on chair seat), he detects the scent he is trained to find and alerts. BTW at the moment of this alert, the handler is beckoning the dog to examine the left sideboard door. The dog correctly ignores the handler, follows his nose, sniffs at table top level, and alerts. This is a huge alert - the barking lasts for 14 seconds.
Are we saying there were alerts at the villa that were not recorded as evidence, but then made out that they were coming from Cuddle Cat instead? That is a strange tactic. I'm tending to think there may have been innocent reasons that there were these alerts at the Villa but as Kate says she "can't explain it". But Gerry answers with a "He confirms all of what was stated previously to the Police on two occasions, and has nothing further to add." and then gives a further statement. This is all contained in their arguido statements. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_07-09-07.htm#p10p2557
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
Are we saying there were alerts at the villa that were not recorded as evidence, but then made out that they were coming from Cuddle Cat instead? That is a strange tactic. (snip)
No. Just saying IMO careful watching of the dog's alerts in villa shows IMO that these alerts were not to the cat. Don't imagine that police experts don't sometimes miss answers. Example it was a neighbour who solved a recent case in Hertfordshire area, by providing a tiny something the huge police effort of many professional experts had completely missed. It would probably have ended up in a cold case archive in a hundred years time otherwise.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 27, 2016, 09:19:15 PM
No. Just saying IMO careful watching of the dog's alerts in villa shows IMO that these alerts were not to the cat. Don't imagine that police experts don't sometimes miss answers. (snip)
That was what I was trying to say above. There were alerts (to something yet to be determined) but the PJ made out they were attributable to the cat being in the cupboard. But she wasn't in the sideboard when the first alerts were made. That is strange if that is true.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 27, 2016, 09:39:07 PM
If you ask me the dog inspections were a complete and utter waste of time and money.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2016, 09:48:54 PM
IMO the handler is simply instructing the dog to walk behind the table again. The handler does not prompt the dog to check the table top. The dog makes his own decision to lean up and sniff at table top level. Good, because by leaning up (audio front paws on chair seat), he detects the scent he is trained to find and alerts. BTW at the moment of this alert, the handler is beckoning the dog to examine the left sideboard door. The dog correctly ignores the handler, follows his nose, sniffs at table top level, and alerts. This is a huge alert - the barking lasts for 14 seconds.
The table cloth wasn't taken to the gymnasium with the other clothing & linen, was it?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 09:55:36 PM
IMO the witness who discovered the scene at 10pm told the truth Eleanor - the toy was on the bed. The misinterpretation(IMO) of the villa alerts, as being alerts to the cat, imply the witness is lying. If it's insane to try prove by study of the video that the witness is telling the truth, and that the alerts were not to the cat, then I'm moving into the nearest horse asylum a.s.a.p. ;)
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2016, 10:03:16 PM
IMO the witness who discovered the scene at 10pm told the truth Eleanor - the toy was on the bed. The misinterpretation(IMO) of the villa alerts, as being alerts to the cat, imply the witness is lying. If it's insane to try prove by study of the video that the witness is telling the truth, and that the alerts were not to the cat, then I'm moving into the nearest horse asylum a.s.a.p. ;)
I love you half to death. One of the very few Sceptics on this Forum who is never really unkind.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 27, 2016, 10:28:44 PM
There would be so many possibilities There would be no limit.
Payne's apartment ***2 other apartments provided by MW ltd **** Do these two get checked by the cadaver dogs? July onward living at the villa.
2 aparts provded by MW - one was for the mccanns which they stayed in for about a month after leaving the Paynes apartment on 4 or 5 may, then moved to the villa, the other apartment provided for family visiting from abroad
the famly/friends one wasnt checked by the dogs
The uk advisor advised the dogs search the residences of the mccanns
Hope that answers your questions
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 28, 2016, 01:10:47 AM
2 aparts provded by MW - one was for the mccanns which they stayed in for about a month after leaving the Paynes apartment on 4 or 5 may, then moved to the villa, the other apartment provided for family visiting from abroad
the famly/friends one wasnt checked by the dogs
The uk advisor advised the dogs search the residences of the mccanns
Hope that answers your questions
That was a mistake on the PJ's part for not searching both apartments. Thanks it did answer the question.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2016, 01:15:24 AM
No that is not right the Cuddle Cat was never lost.
I never said either were lost, in both cases they were 'hidden'.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2016, 04:53:33 PM
"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."
I dont have a lnk, I read it years ago, that Mthercare stocked it, what relevance could the manufacturers have in ths case anyway
Having done quite a lot of googling, it seems no-one on the case has managed to establish exactly what outlet this toy could have originated from (very important when considering a theory involving a second CC). Pegasus was the only person to locate a single picture of an identical toy, which appears on Spanish & Dutch images and this is odd given that CC must be one of the most famous stuffed toys in the world. At a height of 25cm, would CC have safely rested on the mirror frame?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 29, 2016, 06:21:00 AM
Well indeed if you thnk the mccanns hid their dead daughter every which place they could for a few days, but its fantasy
Good luck solving the case, no one has managed it yet though we dont know whats up sys sleeve YET
Byefor now
No I don't think that at all, I think when trying to solve a case I have to consider all possibilities at each step, but it has to tie in with the previous and subsequent steps. Kate has convinced me by her behaviour that she is so unlikely to have done anything untoward.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 29, 2016, 12:04:48 PM
No I don't think that at all, I think when trying to solve a case I have to consider all possibilities at each step, but it has to tie in with the previous and subsequent steps. Kate has convinced me by her behaviour that she is so unlikely to have done anything untoward.
I agree with you about your searching all possibilities and it having to tie in with with previous and subsequent stages.
I also agree with you about Kates total integrity
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 31, 2016, 04:33:41 PM
Here's the brand, and BTW it rattles
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on July 31, 2016, 04:46:38 PM
Search (not image search) for: "cuddle cat" stuffed pink toy and it's around result 12
Found it - thank you. Nice work! (I've just seen that someone on the 3A'a website found out the name back in Jan 2008, googling Russ Berrie pink Cuddlecat)
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: pegasus on July 31, 2016, 05:38:43 PM
And here's another, do image search for cuddle cat pink yellow and it is about 29th
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 31, 2016, 05:54:55 PM
Found it - thank you. Nice work! (I've just seen that someone on the 3A'a website found out the name back in Jan 2008, googling Russ Berrie pink Cuddlecat)
Look at the way the bow tie is presented with the loops forming squared ends and the lose ends forming a frayed look. Those frayed ends would show age, so it should be possible to at least gauge how loved the cuddle cats are.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 31, 2016, 06:25:44 PM
Interesting message on the importance of Cuddle Cat. "source: Câmara de Comuns, September 20, 2008
* criminal psychologist, university professor and author" http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2008/09/maddie-dogs-and-cuddle-cat-questions-of.htm "Maddie: The Dogs and the (cuddle) Cat… Questions of Smell…" I think we are dealing with an evolutionary phenomenon poorly understood here.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2016, 11:51:09 PM
Why are we still going on about Cuddle cat ?
There weren't any alerts to CCat
None
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: mercury on July 31, 2016, 11:55:48 PM
John and even Angelo (IIRC) agree that the so called alert to Cuddle cat was NOT to cuddlecat.
Perhaps SY agree with us because they dont seem to be interested in The Mccanns as suspects, do they?
LOL
So now the proof is john and angelo who have only given their opinions, never pretendng to be experts, but you use them as evidence whilst trashng their opinions n other issues, tryharder sadie
As for sy you have NO CLUE what they thnk, none at all
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on August 01, 2016, 12:49:57 AM
So now the proof is john and angelo who have only given their opinions, never pretendng to be experts, but you use them as evidence whilst trashng their opinions n other issues, tryharder sadie
As for sy you have NO CLUE what they thnk, none at all
As you say i dont know where they are at the moment, but they have acted twice on things that I have pointed out to them. 8**8:/:
That I do know.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 01, 2016, 10:46:44 AM
What particular meaning of the word fiasco did you mean Angelo222? I thought the cuddle cat may help to solve the case so why do you call it a fiasco?
Because it was, Robittybob1. From start to finish, fiasco is an apt description.
For cuddle cat to have had any significance as far as the investigation went ... it should have been put into an evidence bag as soon as the police had photographed the scene.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 01, 2016, 12:16:53 PM
Because it was, Robittybob1. From start to finish, fiasco is an apt description.
For cuddle cat to have had any significance as far as the investigation went ... it should have been put into an evidence bag as soon as the police had photographed the scene.
That part I do agree with.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on August 01, 2016, 12:44:00 PM
Because it was, Robittybob1. From start to finish, fiasco is an apt description.
For cuddle cat to have had any significance as far as the investigation went ... it should have been put into an evidence bag as soon as the police had photographed the scene.
Yes and the Princess blanket too. If there was an intruder the chances are he touched both items or may have shed hair or skin cells onto them. The first law of good policing was broken from the moment of first contact.
In defence of the police however, Luz being such a quiet peaceful resort with no history of abductions or kidnappings, I think they were sold on the woke and wandered theory from the start and never really accepted that stranger abduction could happen. I also think that this was in part attributable to the nearby Cipriano case which also started out as a missing child case but morphed eventually into a domestic violence killing and then a domestic abduction/murder.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: ferryman on August 01, 2016, 04:49:39 PM
What particular meaning of the word fiasco did you mean Angelo222? I thought the cuddle cat may help to solve the case so why do you call it a fiasco?
Conceivably, cuddle-cat (forensically examined, long before the British arrived, and yes, I do rate the Portuguese forensic laboratory, so the opportunity was there) might have yielded vital clues.
But the opportunity (to have the toy forensically examined) was missed by the PJ, and its sole (if important!) role thereafter was as a comfort and a prop for Kate.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 01, 2016, 05:10:05 PM
Oh, right, I misinterpreted your post "the cat is out of the bag". What did you mean?
That's right it is a bit of an obscure reference.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: John on August 31, 2016, 08:43:40 PM
Topic is Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts. Anything else will be expunged. TY
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 11:40:57 PM
Just looking at the official Grime Report http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm "The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately.
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. "
Which is completely different than has been said elsewhere where it was said when the cat was in the sideboard the dog alerted to it, but only picked it up and played with in the lounge. There was no barking to CC in the lounge on video. The alerting occurred at the sideboard in the dining room.
I wonder why he reported these incidences so at odds with reality?
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on January 14, 2017, 01:12:23 AM
Just looking at the official Grime Report http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm "The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately.
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. "
Which is completely different than has been said elsewhere where it was said when the cat was in the sideboard the dog alerted to it, but only picked it up and played with in the lounge. There was no barking to CC in the lounge on video. The alerting occurred at the sideboard in the dining room.
I wonder why he reported these incidences so at odds with reality?
Watch the vidro carefully, Rob
Because Eddie did not actually alert to CCat in the sideboard, he alerted to the pile of ?folders on the top of the sideboard. This was after having passed his nose close to Ccat twice before, but not alerted ... and having already played with Ccat in the lounge without alerting.
I cant understand why Grime even considered that Eddie could have alerted to Ccat, after seeing him play with it before, with absolutely no alert. Grime must have been having an off-day or something.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 01:17:24 AM
The legal summary http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
"4 - In the "Vista do Mar" villa, the house that was rented by the McCanns after leaving the Ocean's Club, the dog "marked" the area of a wardrobe that contained inside the soft toy that belonged to Madeleine McCann (cf. page 2099 and/or annex 88);" Wardrobe = sideboard where cuddle cat had been placed isolated.
Both this and the report from Martin Grime are contradicting one another.
Because Eddie did not actually alert to CCat in the sideboard, he alerted to the pile of ? folders on the top of the sideboard. This was after having passed his nose close to Ccat twice before, but not alerted ... and having already played with Ccat in the lounge without alerting.
I can't understand why Grime even considered that Eddie could have alerted to Ccat, after seeing him play with it before, with absolutely no alert. Grime must have been having an off-day or something.
Well I've watched this video at length and noted it was a ruse (as explained earlier in this thread). What I didn't realise until today was the ruse was so poorly performed that the two parties involved forgot what they were going to say about it.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: sadie on January 14, 2017, 09:47:27 AM
The legal summary http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
"4 - In the "Vista do Mar" villa, the house that was rented by the McCanns after leaving the Ocean's Club, the dog "marked" the area of a wardrobe that contained inside the soft toy that belonged to Madeleine McCann (cf. page 2099 and/or annex 88);" Wardrobe = sideboard where cuddle cat had been placed isolated.
Both this and the report from Martin Grime are contradicting one another.
Well I've watched this video at length and noted it was a ruse (as explained earlier in this thread). What I didn't realise until today was the ruse was so poorly performed that the two parties involved forgot what they were going to say about it.
A ruse ?
So you are thinking that the PJ (along with Martin Grimes?) set up false evidence, then filmed it ?
Then released it to the general public ?
I cant believe any police force would be that corrupt tbh.
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:52:35 AM
So you are thinking that the PJ (along with Martin Grimes?) set up false evidence, then filmed it ?
Then released it to the general public ?
I cant believe any police force would be that corrupt tbh.
Police are forever setting up stings etc to catch criminals. Nothing new about this. What is odd about the McCann case is having the file on the internet. They were seeing if Kate would confess. But Kate being completely innocent and intelligent wasn't going to fall for that!
Title: Re: Cuddlecat and those claimed alerts.
Post by: misty on January 14, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
The legal summary http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
"4 - In the "Vista do Mar" villa, the house that was rented by the McCanns after leaving the Ocean's Club, the dog "marked" the area of a wardrobe that contained inside the soft toy that belonged to Madeleine McCann (cf. page 2099 and/or annex 88);" Wardrobe = sideboard where cuddle cat had been placed isolated.
Both this and the report from Martin Grime are contradicting one another.
Well I've watched this video at length and noted it was a ruse (as explained earlier in this thread). What I didn't realise until today was the ruse was so poorly performed that the two parties involved forgot what they were going to say about it.
One says the alert occurred in the lounge and the other party says it occurred in the sideboard (dining room). Yet there is all this hoo ha from the sceptics saying Kate lied about the reason she delayed the trip to Huelva yet on that day either one of the police or Grimes is lying about where the alert on Cuddle Cat occurred. Actually there was never any alert on Cuddle Cat as Sadie explains.