UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on March 15, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
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1. June's mental illness during the 1950's and the potential for SC to suffer an 'attachment' disorder
The science underpinning 'attachment' has moved on leaps and bounds since the 1980's. A recent study of those who committed filicide found mothers who had poor adult attachment styles were at greater risk of filicide than mothers with mental illness and/or low socio-economic groups.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4513.msg163034#msg163034
2. Blood flake/silencer 'evidence'
Think the 'evidence' was fabricated as per the following post:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6585.msg389748#msg389748
3. Physical evidence at soc imo suggests NB's upstairs gsw's were sustained whilst on the landing stairs and main staircase with the perp already in the bedroom shooting June:
It can be evidenced from experts' trial testimonies and JB's defence that no one attempted to reconstruct the soc. Aspects of the case such as blood staining to carpets, or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks were hardly touched on and when they were dots were not joined to build the bigger picture.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
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This is a great idea for a thread Holly, It should be straightforward for all the case specialists to nail it. Hmm, sparsely attended party so far. As a newbie I will politely wait my turn.
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1. It had to be Jeremy or Sheila
The evidence clearly indicates that the killings were done by someone inside the house or by someone outside who could enter and leave the farmhouse at will even though it appeared secure. The evidence relating to the use of the gun, the fight in the kitchen and the way in which Sheila died would appear to exclude her leaving only one suspect, Jeremy.
2. Julie Mugford's testimony
Julie Mugford's 30-page statement and her testimony in court were utterly damning of Jeremy Bamber. She was unshakeable whilst in the witness box and was an extremely credible witness. I have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve her, Jeremy Bamber did it.
3. Jeremy Bamber's previous misdemeanours.
The record shows that Jeremy Bamber was very capable of criminal acts. Theft of watches while in New Zealand, growing and selling canabis and the the theft and arson at the Osea Caravan Park. These events are not proof in themself that he committed murder but they are proof that he was comfortable with criminality.
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1) The lack of prints on the gun.
2) The condition of Sheila (many points in one, here).
3) The phone call.
Need another trim, Samson?
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1) The lack of prints on the gun.
2) The condition of Sheila (many points in one, here).
3) The phone call.
Need another trim, Samson?
1. Jeremy, I assume, wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.
No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.
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1. Jeremy, I assume, wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.
No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.
Have you ever handled a gun, fired one, shot any animal or been shot yourself? I can tell you now that had Sheila shot herself at point blank range she and the rifle would have been covered in blood smears. You don't shoot yourself twice in the neck and come out of it looking pristine "without a hair out of place" as her cousin David Boutflour previously commented.
Imagine having a red hot poker shoved in your neck for several inches at over a thousand miles per hour (550 m/s)?
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This is a great idea for a thread Holly, It should be straightforward for all the case specialists to nail it. Hmm, sparsely attended party so far. As a newbie I will politely wait my turn.
Yeah BUT no one has downloaded my filicide and attachment pdf 8(8-))
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I'll get around to it Holly. Meanwhile thought for the day from Christopher Brookmyre while we await rest of the case experts
‘I’ve been working to debunk and demystify the big fib for decades, only to find that no matter how much evidence I present that it’s a fraud, people go ahead and believe in it regardless. The psychology of willing self-deception fascinates me, but the detachment of the academic perspective can only hold off the implications for so long. Eventually, what was fascinating becomes depressing. This desire to believe in things for which there is no evidence, or for which there is only evidence to the contrary, is nothing more than an act of intellectual self-indulgence.’
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Absolutely no forensics on Sheila from ANY of the other victims. We can't say the same about Jeremy, he had time to clean himself up.
The whole phone call things doesn't ring true.
The coincidence of leaving the gun out with a fully loaded magazine close by with a weak excuse of intending to shoot rabbits.
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Absolutely no forensics on Sheila from ANY of the other victims. We can't say the same about Jeremy, he had time to clean himself up.
The whole phone call things doesn't ring true.
The coincidence of leaving the gun out with a fully loaded magazine close by with a weak excuse of intending to shoot rabbits.
Not a lot of science here Caroline.
Science is a rigorous game, and you should be tying Jeremy to the crime scene accordingly.
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Not a lot of science here Caroline.
Science is a rigorous game, and you should be tying Jeremy to the crime scene accordingly.
There is no science in Sheila being free from the blood of other victims? Seriously, are for real? The nature of the phone call makes the killer Jeremy or Sheila, if Sheila is FREE from anything to tie her to the shooting (the blood from the victims), then you have to look elsewhere. The neatly organised crime scene "I'm the killer because there's a gun on my chest" - whether circumstantial or not, stick out like a sore thumb.
Kindly tell me where the science enters your theory "Sheila killed everyone because her underwear was soaking in a bucket"? &%+((£
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There is no science in Sheila being free from the blood of other victims? Seriously, are for real? The nature of the phone call makes the killer Jeremy or Sheila, if Sheila is FREE from anything to tie her to the shooting (the blood from the victims), then you have to look elsewhere. The neatly organised crime scene "I'm the killer because there's a gun on my chest" - whether circumstantial or not, stick out like a sore thumb.
Kindly tell me where the science enters your theory "Sheila killed everyone because her underwear was soaking in a bucket"? &%+((£
Absolutely, sometimes evidence is what you don't find rather than what you do. I believe its called circumstantial evidence.
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1) Jeremy claims of receiving a phone call from Nevill is not credible
A) The evidence indicates the event commenced with Nevill and June attacked in the bedroom and then progressed to the kitchen.
B) There is no reason why Nevill would phone Jeremy to ask him to come help disarm Sheila period let alone that he would do so and leave June and the boys in bed at her mercy while on the phone int he kitchen
C) Nevill was the person who had the most calming influence on sheila so would be the one to call to calm her down not the person calling someone and certainly would not call Jeremy who himself said he didn't have a good relationship with her
2) Forensic evidence establishes Sheila can't have been responsible.
A) Sheila's blood in the moderator but not the rifle barrel proves she was shot with the moderator and it was put away after the murders
B) If Sheila had been the killer then she would have had GSR on her body and clothing
C) If Sheila had beaten Nevill she would have had his blood in the form of medium velocity backspatter on her
D) Unless she had been wearing gloves her hand would have been at minimum scratched when the stock broke and she would have gotten blood on her hands because the stock had blood and would have left pints in blood on the rifle or elsewhere. There were no gloves she could have been wearing.
E) Evidence the Bible was placed in a pool of Sheila's blood that formed after she died
3) Julie ratting out Jeremy
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All great points so far guys and very valid too!
There is also...
* DS Jones observing Jeremy and Julie at Goldhanger on the morning after the murder.
* The hearty breakfast offer to police officers.
* Jeremy's confusion on who he phoned first after the claimed call from Nevill.
* Jeremy driving slowly to WHF and stopping to allow police to overtake him and arrive first.
* The funeral fiasco, makeup and fake tears.
* Jeremy more concerned with what he would inherit than going to identify his dead family.
* Jeremy was able to get into WHF using a downstairs window which was supposed to be secure.
* Jeremy's suspicious conduct following the funerals, holidays to Amsterdam and the South of France.
* Jeremy's actions and conduct towards Julie, daring her to go to the police.
* The callous attempts to sell semi nude photos of Sheila to London based newspapers.
* Jeremy's arrogant and contemptuous responses to prosecution lawyer during the trial.
* The invented hitman story told to Julie by Jeremy.
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For guilt:
1:
The forensic evidence:
There is so much a library had to be created. It's all equally important so unfair to pick on one piece.
2:
The circumstantial evidence:
There is too much for a library.
Again it's all equally important & just as important as the forensic evidence.
3:
The arguments for innocence:
Everything under the sun has been thrown at this case for 31 years. From 'gut feelings', Crispy shooting Sheila & not liking Julie's court outfit.
Most recently there has been an SAS style hit man team theory & RB shooting himself to put blood in the silencer.
Supporter 'Scales' created a new theory on Blue this week of how Sheila committed the massacre. This doesn't match the crime scene at all & has Nevill ringing Bamber after Sheila has fired 10 bullets into him & the twins.
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1. Jeremy, I assume, wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.
No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.
I hardly understand any of your stuff, Samson - either on here, blue or I.A. Maybe it's your intention to be obscure.
How can the gun be almost totally devoid of prints? If you're right then Sheila must have handled it, carried it, reloaded it, chambered it, used it as a club...maybe Nevill tried to wrestle it from her in the kitchen...then she shot herself (twice!), so she must have gripped the end of the barrel at that point - but no prints, either smeared or clear. (I know about her ring-finger print, which is more damning for Bamber, IMO).
What do you think?
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I hardly understand any of your stuff, Samson - either on here, blue or I.A. Maybe it's your intention to be obscure.
How can the gun be almost totally devoid of prints? If you're right then Sheila must have handled it, carried it, reloaded it, chambered it, used it as a club...maybe Nevill tried to wrestle it from her in the kitchen...then she shot herself (twice!), so she must have gripped the end of the barrel at that point - but no prints, either smeared or clear. (I know about her ring-finger print, which is more damning for Bamber, IMO).
What do you think?
Sorry, Samson, but from now on you're dumped into the elderly gut-feeling, copper-hating, lazy homework denying, conspiracy theory believing, weirdly obtuse bin.
Carry on tilting at the wrong windmill.
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1. Jeremy, I assume, wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.
No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.
I think the evidence proves the complete opposite of what Holly claims but I don't even comprehend what you are trying to say in your first one.
I don't know what you mean by Jeremy was trying to examine it.
Furthermore, the gun wasn't in pristine condition after the murders- the stock was damaged and it as well as the moderator were scratched up whereas the weekend prior they were pristine.
As for the call to Goldhanger there is no proof it happened and only Jeremy supporters believe it actually occurred and they only believe it occurred because if it didn't then Jeremy is guilty and they don't want to believe that so say it happened.
While the trajectories don' rule out suicide other things do for instance evidence proving the moderator was used and complete lack of GSR and other evidence that would be present on her body had she committed the murders.
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Sorry, Samson, but from now on you're dumped into the elderly gut-feeling, copper-hating, lazy homework denying, conspiracy theory believing, weirdly obtuse bin.
Carry on tilting at the wrong windmill.
There is no need to apologise.
I don't regard conspiracy discussion as adding anything to these cases. Usually there is one act of helping a case that will be done secretly.
Julie Mugford was an extreme case of woman scorned.
Once Bamber is in jail the system is designed to keep him there, in support of the sanctity of the jury decision. This is universal in countries of this type. There is no conspiracy by judges and the home office, just a routine that is followed, reverse the burden of proof and seize on a data point that is too hard to disprove.
In this case it is the paint on the silencer, CCRC 2012.
Is that clear Puglove?
I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.
My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably
1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.
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I think the evidence proves the complete opposite of what Holly claims but I don't even comprehend what you are trying to say in your first one.
I don't know what you mean by Jeremy was trying to examine it.
Furthermore, the gun wasn't in pristine condition after the murders- the stock was damaged and it as well as the moderator were scratched up whereas the weekend prior they were pristine.
As for the call to Goldhanger there is no proof it happened and only Jeremy supporters believe it actually occurred and they only believe it occurred because if it didn't then Jeremy is guilty and they don't want to believe that so say it happened.
While the trajectories don' rule out suicide other things do for instance evidence proving the moderator was used and complete lack of GSR and other evidence that would be present on her body had she committed the murders.
I have just covered some of these points chatting to Puglove. I don't recall the point I was making about the gun, but you have nailed it by stating the trajectories don't rule out suicide. We have suffered this paradox with David Bain for two decades as well.
Bloody slaughters in pursuit of the family fortune by 23 year olds that must unequivocally conclude with perfect suicide trajectories and no contact with the victim, yet there are already bodies strewn everywhere.
This is no way to sit down with pencil and paper and sketch out a plan. This is a recipe for failure at a truly chaotic number of interactions. And in Bain and Bamber, the crimes were not planned before the evenings in question, and strong propensity motive was present in both.
Robin Bain had been outed for raping his daughter, and Sheila Caffel may have been about to lose what little control she had over her children imo.
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I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.
The difficulty with these improvised theories is that they don't fit with the facts. For your theory to work Sheila had to discharge several shots while Nevill was allegedly on the phone to Jeremy. Unfortunately for your theory, no shots were heard by Jeremy so its back to your drawing board.
The reality is however that we know what happened in the master bedroom, who was shot where and how many times. We also know roughly where the shooter was standing when he discharged the shots. The altercation in the kitchen was not the one sided affair that you suggest, Nevill put up an almighty struggle with his attacker which rules Sheila out completely for many reasons.
Every good investigator worth his salt knows that in order to correctly explain an event every single detail has to fit. Nobody has ever come up with a credible theory which can incriminate Sheila which says it all really.
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My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably
1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.
1. There doesn't have to be evidence directly linking Jeremy to the crimescene. There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and that is what counts.
2. Not according to the evidence so I completely disagree.
3. Bamber managed to isolate Sheila from the killing spree and could have done so in several ways.
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I have just covered some of these points chatting to Puglove. I don't recall the point I was making about the gun, but you have nailed it by stating the trajectories don't rule out suicide. We have suffered this paradox with David Bain for two decades as well.
Bloody slaughters in pursuit of the family fortune by 23 year olds that must unequivocally conclude with perfect suicide trajectories and no contact with the victim, yet there are already bodies strewn everywhere.
This is no way to sit down with pencil and paper and sketch out a plan. This is a recipe for failure at a truly chaotic number of interactions. And in Bain and Bamber, the crimes were not planned before the evenings in question, and strong propensity motive was present in both.
Robin Bain had been outed for raping his daughter, and Sheila Caffel may have been about to lose what little control she had over her children imo.
1) There is evidence establishing that Jeremy did in fact plan the murders for a long time and that he took various steps in anticipation of committing the murders. That evidence is not only what Julie testified to, but also he did in fact take his mother's bike and have it at his house shortly before the murders (he told Julie he planned to use a bike) and removed the phone form the master bedroom in anticipation of committing the murders. He also planned to tell to frame his sister and pretend he received a distress call according to Julie. He also had his father buy the semi-auto in anticipation of committing the murders because he needed something with a larger magazine then the double barrel shotguns Nevill possessed.
2) You ignore all the forensic evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed everyone else and herself and only care about the trajectory of her shots nothing else. That is very shortsighted. If she hugged the weapon to shoot herself then GSR would have been all over her gown and her blood would have been inside the barrel of the rifle.
Instead her blood was in the moderator and it was put away by the killer in the closet, she could not have shot herself with it attached and certainly didn't go put it in the closet after she was dead. All the forensic evidence that would exist if she had beaten Nevill and shot the others didn't exist either.
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1) There is evidence establishing that Jeremy did in fact plan the murders for a long time and that he took various steps in anticipation of committing the murders. That evidence is not only what Julie testified to, but also he did in fact take his mother's bike and have it at his house shortly before the murders (he told Julie he planned to use a bike) and removed the phone form the master bedroom in anticipation of committing the murders. He also planned to tell to frame his sister and pretend he received a distress call according to Julie. He also had his father buy the semi-auto in anticipation of committing the murders because he needed something with a larger magazine then the double barrel shotguns Nevill possessed.
2) You ignore all the forensic evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed everyone else and herself and only care about the trajectory of her shots nothing else. That is very shortsighted. If she hugged the weapon to shoot herself then GSR would have been all over her gown and her blood would have been inside the barrel of the rifle.
Instead her blood was in the moderator and it was put away by the killer in the closet, she could not have shot herself with it attached and certainly didn't go put it in the closet after she was dead. All the forensic evidence that would exist if she had beaten Nevill and shot the others didn't exist either.
Lack of blood in the gun barrel is probably something Holly or David can help with. I know that there was blood in the silencer in Bain. This may be attributed to the rigid surface at the temple creating a different physical dynamic to throat shots. To force blood back a rigid contact point may be required.
Obviously I disagree with the rest, the most extreme reason for abandoning Mugford is that she appeared complicit until dumped in a hideous crime against children. Are you suggesting her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?
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Lack of blood in the gun barrel is probably something Holly or David can help with. I know that there was blood in the silencer in Bain. This may be attributed to the rigid surface at the temple creating a different physical dynamic to throat shots. To force blood back a rigid contact point may be required.
Obviously I disagree with the rest, the most extreme reason for abandoning Mugford is that she appeared complicit until dumped in a hideous crime against children. Are you suggesting her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?
"Are you suggesting that her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?" Try, if you can, to look at this from the both sides. It starts from the point where, whatever you believe were her motives, she WAS involved in, what can only be described as, a nightmare situation -I will add, here, that whilst I DO believe she told the truth, I don't believe she told ALL the truth- and from my understanding, none of us can leave them, totally, behind, SO, IF you're going to persist in the belief that she's the Wicked Witch of the East, she'll have no less of an internal struggle with what she did than if she's pure as driven snow. Coming from a position of both extremes -personally, I don't think she's at either end, rather she falls somewhere in the middle- it's not unlikely that she'd need long term therapy to help her work it though.
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1. There doesn't have to be evidence directly linking Jeremy to the crimescene. There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and that is what counts.
2. Not according to the evidence so I completely disagree.
3. Bamber managed to isolate Sheila from the killing spree and could have done so in several ways.
I have never understood the claim that there is no direct evidence linking Bamber to the crime scene.
It's true that there is no CCTV footage of Bamber climbing through a WHF window. However all the evidence that shows it wasn't Sheila, directly links Bamber to the crime scene. Courtesy of Bamber's telephone call to the police.
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There is no need to apologise.
I don't regard conspiracy discussion as adding anything to these cases. Usually there is one act of helping a case that will be done secretly.
Julie Mugford was an extreme case of woman scorned.
Once Bamber is in jail the system is designed to keep him there, in support of the sanctity of the jury decision. This is universal in countries of this type. There is no conspiracy by judges and the home office, just a routine that is followed, reverse the burden of proof and seize on a data point that is too hard to disprove.
In this case it is the paint on the silencer, CCRC 2012.
Is that clear Puglove?
I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.
My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably
1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.
1. There is no evidence linking Sheila and she was there - Bamber had time to rid himself of forensics.
2. no idea what your number two point is about.
3. Because his plan was crap in hindsight isn't a reason for his innocence.
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I have never understood the claim that there is no direct evidence linking Bamber to the crime scene.
It's true that there is no CCTV footage of Bamber climbing through a WHF window. However all the evidence that shows it wasn't Sheila, directly links Bamber to the crime scene. Courtesy of Bamber's telephone call to the police.
I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.
There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway. By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.
When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious. Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?
(http://i.imgur.com/ksIUY.jpg)
Essex Police SOCO examining Nevill Bamber's car parked at Jeremy's house in Goldhanger. Blood was found under a front seat.
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I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.
There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway. By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.
When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious. Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?
Three small blood stains ON one of the front seats of Nevill's Citroen Pallas. Bamber had four weeks to wipe the upholstery clean, but obviously wasn't thorough enough.
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I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.
There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway. By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.
When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious. Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?
(http://i.imgur.com/ksIUY.jpg)
Essex Police SOCO examining Nevill Bamber's car parked at Jeremy's house in Goldhanger. Blood was found under a front seat.
Yes, she said that Jeremy didn't usually have towels in the bathroom.
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"Are you suggesting that her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?" Try, if you can, to look at this from the both sides. It starts from the point where, whatever you believe were her motives, she WAS involved in, what can only be described as, a nightmare situation -I will add, here, that whilst I DO believe she told the truth, I don't believe she told ALL the truth- and from my understanding, none of us can leave them, totally, behind, SO, IF you're going to persist in the belief that she's the Wicked Witch of the East, she'll have no less of an internal struggle with what she did than if she's pure as driven snow. Coming from a position of both extremes -personally, I don't think she's at either end, rather she falls somewhere in the middle- it's not unlikely that she'd need long term therapy to help her work it though.
It is necessary to look at the circumstance she finds herself in at the time of the crime, and how it relates to the testimony she delivered in court.
If she is truth telling, she knew as soon as the murders were confirmed that Jeremy was responsible.
Therefore warm embraces and planning of holidays means she was cool with the killings. Why is she working with children now?
I can't understand how you don't all see this, this is the elephant in the room.
I can tell you, she both
1. Did not know Jeremy had done this on the morning, so was lying in court when furnishing lurid detail about the well formed plan.
2. Because this is true, she can not possibly know to this day that he is guilty. Indeed she has conveniently buried all the straightforward evidence proving he is innocent, including the fact the telephone call did not alert her to a completed slaughter, but rather said to her "not more trouble with Sheila please, just let me sleep".
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It is necessary to look at the circumstance she finds herself in at the time of the crime, and how it relates to the testimony she delivered in court.
If she is truth telling, she knew as soon as the murders were confirmed that Jeremy was responsible.
Therefore warm embraces and planning of holidays means she was cool with the killings. Why is she working with children now?
I can't understand how you don't all see this, this is the elephant in the room.
I can tell you, she both
1. Did not know Jeremy had done this on the morning, so was lying in court when furnishing lurid detail about the well formed plan.
2. Because this is true, she can not possibly know to this day that he is guilty. Indeed she has conveniently buried all the straightforward evidence proving he is innocent, including the fact the telephone call did not alert her to a completed slaughter, but rather said to her "not more trouble with Sheila please, just let me sleep".
Please don't presume to lecture me on things about which you know precisely NOTHING. How DARE you sit over there and tell us that "I can't understand how you don't all see this" when you haven't even got the basic facts straight. I'm willing to bet Julie has better reason to believe him guilty than you have to believe him innocent.
I think, if he'd been voicing his plans to her for several months, she'd have been FULLY aware,after that silly o'clock phone call, that he's carried them through. How do you KNOW that the embraces were warm? He said the relationship had cooled. She MAY have had her arms round him but you have NO idea what was going through her mind. You seem to only be able to see anything at all in terms of black or white. In my world black and white are only the extremes of grey. Believe me, there are MANY more than fifty.
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Please don't presume to lecture me on things about which you know precisely NOTHING. How DARE you sit over there and tell us that "I can't understand how you don't all see this" when you haven't even got the basic facts straight. I'm willing to bet Julie has better reason to believe him guilty than you have to believe him innocent.
I think, if he'd been voicing his plans to her for several months, she'd have been FULLY aware,after that silly o'clock phone call, that he's carried them through. How do you KNOW that the embraces were warm? He said the relationship had cooled. She MAY have had her arms round him but you have NO idea what was going through her mind. You seem to only be able to see anything at all in terms of black or white. In my world black and white are only the extremes of grey. Believe me, there are MANY more than fifty.
I think this is interesting, and an ideal discussion point. What do others think of APRIL's bet?
I read CAL's book pretty carefully for its well researched conversations, and behaviour descriptions. At the point of the embrace therefore she knows he has shot two sleeping Angels in the head, and still works with Jeremy with the happy foursome holiday plans. You see I don't buy it, but you and others may.
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I think this is interesting, and an ideal discussion point. What do others think of APRIL's bet?
I read CAL's book pretty carefully for its well researched conversations, and behaviour descriptions. At the point of the embrace therefore she knows he has shot two sleeping Angels in the head, and still works with Jeremy with the happy foursome holiday plans. You see I don't buy it, but you and others may.
Does CAL have a background in psychology to back up her behavioural descriptions? I think Julie was well aware, at the point of embrace that he'd shot the boys -can we cut the crap with the "Angels"- but I'll refrain from jumping to the conclusion that she'd have been happy. I fail to see what your problem is.
A) She didn't have any hand in killing them. B) She was nowhere near WHF when they were killed. C) If there's been anyone else, ie FAMILY, who were willing to identify them, Julie wouldn't have had to.
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Does CAL have a background in psychology to back up her behavioural descriptions? I think Julie was well aware, at the point of embrace that he'd shot the boys -can we cut the crap with the "Angels"- but I'll refrain from jumping to the conclusion that she'd have been happy. I fail to see what your problem is.
A) She didn't have any hand in killing them. B) She was nowhere near WHF when they were killed. C) If there's been anyone else, ie FAMILY, who were willing to identify them, Julie wouldn't have had to.
She did not for one instant think he was involved that morning, after all, a few hours previously she had told him to go back to sleep.
And a warm or cold embrace is one thing, but well documented plans that involve retaining him as boyfriend and holidaying are inconsistent with the proposition this woman should rise to high places in child management if she knew at the time he was a child killer.
It saddens me to see people so blinded by all this, when the simple explanation is the tale told from day one of the crime by Jeremy Bamber himself.
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Lack of blood in the gun barrel is probably something Holly or David can help with. I know that there was blood in the silencer in Bain. This may be attributed to the rigid surface at the temple creating a different physical dynamic to throat shots. To force blood back a rigid contact point may be required.
Obviously I disagree with the rest, the most extreme reason for abandoning Mugford is that she appeared complicit until dumped in a hideous crime against children. Are you suggesting her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?
According to Dr Vincent DiMaio an absence of blood in or on a barrel doesn't preclude a contact shot - see attached.
Re DB I can't find anything about blood in the silencer. N-NZ seemed to think blood was found in the barrel and travelled all the way through the silencer which way exceeds the maximum distance in Prof Herb MacDonell's research for .22 calibre firearms.
By the time of 65 Every St, DNA testing was available but I can't find anything about anyone's DNA in or on silencer/rifle?
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I think this is interesting, and an ideal discussion point. What do others think of APRIL's bet?
I read CAL's book pretty carefully for its well researched conversations, and behaviour descriptions. At the point of the embrace therefore she knows he has shot two sleeping Angels in the head, and still works with Jeremy with the happy foursome holiday plans. You see I don't buy it, but you and others may.
I tend to try and stick to aspects of the case that have some basis in science. I find JM an unreliable prosecution witness.
You can listen to solicitor Ewan Smith's views on JM's testimony in the following. ES represented JB before joining the CCRC as a commissioner.
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
According to ES the judge warned the jury about the reliability of JM's testimony. Samson I think most in the legal world agree the silencer/blood flake underpins JB's conviction.
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She did not for one instant think he was involved that morning, after all, a few hours previously she had told him to go back to sleep.
And a warm or cold embrace is one thing, but well documented plans that involve retaining him as boyfriend and holidaying are inconsistent with the proposition this woman should rise to high places in child management if she knew at the time he was a child killer.
It saddens me to see people so blinded by all this, when the simple explanation is the tale told from day one of the crime by Jeremy Bamber himself.
I think she'd seen Jeremy as a knight in shining armour or a Porsche? who was going to give her a life she'd only dreamed of. I'm not sure that she didn't support his fantasy about how much better his life would be without his parents on his back but I doubt it became real until that phone call. I appreciate that she'd have been reluctant to accuse him over the phone when others were present, and I'm not entirely certain that we know the WHOLE conversation which took place. What we're told of it sounds disjointed. He didn't seem to ring to hear a friendly voice. He did most of the talking. I think she played an ace card by speaking to the police first. It means she only told them what she wanted them to know. I'm inclined to think she may have left a lot out. I don't believe she could have prevented it from happening because she could offer nothing by way of proof, and I know, from others' experiences that the police can do nothing until a crime is committed. The most she could have done would have been to walk away, but she was 21. Women TWICE her age have been known to stay with criminals/murderers. Not for one moment do I believe she'll ever be entirely free of it.
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According to Dr Vincent DiMaio an absence of blood in or on a barrel doesn't preclude a contact shot - see attached.
Re DB I can't find anything about blood in the silencer. N-NZ seemed to think blood was found in the barrel and travelled all the way through the silencer which way exceeds the maximum distance in Prof Herb MacDonell's research for .22 calibre firearms.
By the time of 65 Every St, DNA testing was available but I can't find anything about anyone's DNA in or on silencer/rifle?
I just spoke to NNZ.
The blood did reach the barrel, through the silencer.
The ammunition was the same velocity as Bamber.
Robin Bain had the full weight of his head, rigid skull/temple sealing the point of entry IMO.
Sheila was resting the gun in a proximate position to find her throat, missed, and realigned to find her brain.
This is soft tissue vs hard, and there is no implied seal. Think the difference between punching cotton wool and a steel door.
Therefore if they truly did swab the barrel in Bamber, there is a common sense physical explanation for no blowback of blood.
Furthermore, when it is blown back it is in the form of mist, not globule. The 1/4 inch flake is a hoax.
This is all my attempt at eating from the tin with common sense on the label.
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2) You ignore all the forensic evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed everyone else and herself and only care about the trajectory of her shots nothing else. That is very shortsighted. If she hugged the weapon to shoot herself then GSR would have been all over her gown.
Wrong.
(https://s23.postimg.org/qf2gtj4q3/IMG_20160602_164305.jpg)
The above confirms my initial theory.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6965.msg300125#msg300125 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6965.msg300125#msg300125)
and her blood would have been inside the barrel of the rifle.
Wrong.
(https://s23.postimg.org/weq7x6pij/dmgw3rd.jpg)
Instead her blood was in the moderator and it was put away by the killer in the closet, she could not have shot herself with it attached and certainly didn't go put it in the closet after she was dead.
The forensic and circumstantial evidence around the moderator allows an inference to be drawn that provides an alternative explanation for the blood inside in the moderator.
None of your arguments exclude the alternative suspect.
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I tend to try and stick to aspects of the case that have some basis in science. I find JM an unreliable prosecution witness.
You can listen to solicitor Ewan Smith's views on JM's testimony in the following. ES represented JB before joining the CCRC as a commissioner.
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
According to ES the judge warned the jury about the reliability of JM's testimony. Samson I think most in the legal world agree the silencer/blood flake underpins JB's conviction.
Holly, I can see everywhere the testimony of JM being of vital importance in keeping him in jail. This testimony completely captured Clive Wismayer, who is an enormously sane poster. He is eloquent on Nyki Kish, and solved Dewani before the trial judge sent everyone packing when she saw straight through the hoax. Yet Clive could not see how such detailed testimony could be manufactured and I totally understand that. But of course I agree, the testimony is ultimately consistent with JB innocence, so the kind of deconstruction David has pointed out is vital in the ongoing battle, where he can show that she was told everything because she repeated details with errors.
I have just posted above on the blood flake and Bain.
I can't hear that ES report, something about adobe flash. I would like to hear it if there is another vehicle.
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Holly, I can see everywhere the testimony of JM being of vital importance in keeping him in jail. This testimony completely captured Clive Wismayer, who is an enormously sane poster. He is eloquent on Nyki Kish, and solved Dewani before the trial judge sent everyone packing when she saw straight through the hoax. Yet Clive could not see how such detailed testimony could be manufactured and I totally understand that. But of course I agree, the testimony is ultimately consistent with JB innocence, so the kind of deconstruction David has pointed out is vital in the ongoing battle, where he can show that she was told everything because she repeated details with errors.
I have just posted above on the blood flake and Bain.
I can't hear that ES report, something about adobe flash. I would like to hear it if there is another vehicle.
As I said I think you will find most lawyers will agree the blood/silencer is the sticking point. We don't have access to JM's and JB's testimony. I thought transcipts had to be made available upon request but in this case it appears not.
Journalist David Connett who attended much of the trial and heard JM provide her testimony wasn't impressed:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/past-crimes-the-bamber-files-2046383.html
No I don't have access to the vid in another format. Do you have adobe on your device? If not then you will need to download.
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I just spoke to NNZ.
The blood did reach the barrel, through the silencer.
The ammunition was the same velocity as Bamber.
Robin Bain had the full weight of his head, rigid skull/temple sealing the point of entry IMO.
Sheila was resting the gun in a proximate position to find her throat, missed, and realigned to find her brain.
This is soft tissue vs hard, and there is no implied seal. Think the difference between punching cotton wool and a steel door.
Therefore if they truly did swab the barrel in Bamber, there is a common sense physical explanation for no blowback of blood.
Furthermore, when it is blown back it is in the form of mist, not globule. The 1/4 inch flake is a hoax.
This is all my attempt at eating from the tin with common sense on the label.
No disrespect to N-NZ but I would like to see some official docs re the silencer/blood and I've been unable to find any. The rifle with silencer attached ? was used to shoot multiple victims with SB sustaining a beating and RB a contact shot so surely the blood on/in rifle/silencer was analysed?
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No disrespect to N-NZ but I would like to see some official docs re the silencer/blood and I've been unable to find any. The rifle with silencer attached ? was used to shoot multiple victims with SB sustaining a beating and RB a contact shot so surely the blood on/in rifle/silencer was analysed?
As I said a mist of blood went right down silencer to gun barrel. There is definitely documentation and proof or NNZ would never say it.
There was no debate about whether there was a silencer attached, so the science is not dispute, but of course the fact of blood in the barrel entailed a contact shot for the finale. Each previous bullet cleans the barrel, if not the silencer baffles. It is curious that DB was jailed on a non contact shot to Robin, which is impossible with both ring of soot and blood in gun barrel.
NNZ's point is simple. There will be blood in both silencer and barrel, or blood in neither as a probability. Once the drawn in mist is travelling it does not stop at the end of the silencer, therefore the silencer was not attached when Sheila shot herself.
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From NNZ
Peter Ross, p3653-3654 Bain retrial
A. It wasn’t provided to me, so it’s something which I haven't seen.
Q. If the case note records that, “Blood was found on the silencer, extensive smearing and traces of blood were also found inside the barrel, positive,” that’s what it’s saying here. Does that accord with the answer you gave Mr Mander in relation to the vacuum effect and hard contact wound?
A. Oh it does, it indicates that, I mean, there are a number of people who have been shot. It indicates that at least one of those suffered a relatively hard contact wound.
questions from the court: 3653 -54
Q. One of those Mr Ross, I take it that if there's blood in the barrel it would have to be from the last firing of the rifle that it was vacuumed in?
A. It is far more likely sir because of the movement of the gases, the bullet is designed that it fits very, very snugly into the barrel so any biological material would largely be removed, so it really comes down to the final shot.
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That's an interesting theory.
There is no dispute that several of the massacre shots were contact shots. Most importantly one of Sheila's shots.
There is also no dispute that there was human blood inside the silencer which was almost certainly Sheila's, but no blood inside the rifle nozzle.
I don't believe the power of a rifle for shooting rabbits would be enough to create enough back splatter to travel through the silencer into the rifle. There was barely enough back splatter to get into the silencer and the blood inside the silencer was very minimal.
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I just spoke to NNZ.
The blood did reach the barrel, through the silencer.
The ammunition was the same velocity as Bamber.
Robin Bain had the full weight of his head, rigid skull/temple sealing the point of entry IMO.
Sheila was resting the gun in a proximate position to find her throat, missed, and realigned to find her brain.
This is soft tissue vs hard, and there is no implied seal. Think the difference between punching cotton wool and a steel door.
Therefore if they truly did swab the barrel in Bamber, there is a common sense physical explanation for no blowback of blood.
Furthermore, when it is blown back it is in the form of mist, not globule. The 1/4 inch flake is a hoax.
This is all my attempt at eating from the tin with common sense on the label.
A moderator has to be quite short for drawback to be able to travel through it into the rifle barrel. There was blood on the outside of the barrel in the Bain case not inside the rifle barrel.
The more I read about that case the more I think they got it wrong in reversing his conviction.
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As I said a mist of blood went right down silencer to gun barrel. There is definitely documentation and proof or NNZ would never say it.
There was no debate about whether there was a silencer attached, so the science is not dispute, but of course the fact of blood in the barrel entailed a contact shot for the finale. Each previous bullet cleans the barrel, if not the silencer baffles. It is curious that DB was jailed on a non contact shot to Robin, which is impossible with both ring of soot and blood in gun barrel.
NNZ's point is simple. There will be blood in both silencer and barrel, or blood in neither as a probability. Once the drawn in mist is travelling it does not stop at the end of the silencer, therefore the silencer was not attached when Sheila shot herself.
I don't doubt N-NZ would deliberately mislead and/or isn't careful with the facts but its easy enough to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or experts can get it wrong. Many of the docs in these cases are ambiguous.
Research by Prof MacDonnell, NY, who was at one time regarded as a world expert on bloodstains, until his reputation was badly damaged by using his position as a forensic scientist to intimidate a child and further counts of child sex abuse, seems to contradict the distance blood can travel against the line of fire in DB's case. Albeit the research is based on gsw's fired at a short distance as opposed to contact. I don't know the length of the silencer in the Bain case but assuming it was similar in size to the one referred to in JB's case (approx 7") then I'm really struggling with blood travelling this far back and depositing in the rifle barrel. There's a correlation between calibre and distance blood can travel back against the line of fire. As you know .22 is considered low-powered.
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From NNZ
Peter Ross, p3653-3654 Bain retrial
A. It wasn’t provided to me, so it’s something which I haven't seen.
Q. If the case note records that, “Blood was found on the silencer, extensive smearing and traces of blood were also found inside the barrel, positive,” that’s what it’s saying here. Does that accord with the answer you gave Mr Mander in relation to the vacuum effect and hard contact wound?
A. Oh it does, it indicates that, I mean, there are a number of people who have been shot. It indicates that at least one of those suffered a relatively hard contact wound.
questions from the court: 3653 -54
Q. One of those Mr Ross, I take it that if there's blood in the barrel it would have to be from the last firing of the rifle that it was vacuumed in?
A. It is far more likely sir because of the movement of the gases, the bullet is designed that it fits very, very snugly into the barrel so any biological material would largely be removed, so it really comes down to the final shot.
Thanks. This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical about the blood in the silencer/rifle in the Bain case as DNA testing was available at the time of DB's trial. DNA testing is capable of producing results from poor quality samples unlike blood serology testing used in JB's case. At the time of JB's trial DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged.
As I said previously, my understanding is that in the Bain case a total of 5 victims lost their lives to gsw's. SB was beaten with the rifle/silencer. And RB suffered a contact wound. Therefore if experts identified blood in/on rifle/silencer where are the blood test results showing whose blood by way of DNA testing? In JB's case I can produce for you numerous official docs showing a breakdown of victims' blood groups along with JB's, RWB's and the 1/4" flake supposedly found inside the silencer.
It would be helpful if you could chase this down Samson as its an extremely important aspect of JB's case and might assist. Thanks.
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I don't doubt N-NZ would deliberately mislead and/or isn't careful with the facts but its easy enough to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or experts can get it wrong. Many of the docs in these cases are ambiguous.
Research by Prof MacDonnell, NY, who was at one time regarded as a world expert on bloodstains, until his reputation was badly damaged by using his position as a forensic scientist to intimidate a child and further counts of child sex abuse, seems to contradict the distance blood can travel against the line of fire in DB's case. Albeit the research is based on gsw's fired at a short distance as opposed to contact. I don't know the length of the silencer in the Bain case but assuming it was similar in size to the one referred to in JB's case (approx 7") then I'm really struggling with blood travelling this far back and depositing in the rifle barrel. There's a correlation between calibre and distance blood can travel back against the line of fire. As you know .22 is considered low-powered.
Robin Bain shot himself in this position. Its probably due to gravity why the blood got that deep.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k2Xsd-C-pPk/VP1JmuiKlqI/AAAAAAAAAuw/Dv_5NfteNkk/s1600/Joe%2BKaram%2Bdemonstrating%2Bhow%2BRobin%2BBain%2Bshot%2Bhimself.jpg)
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Robin Bain shot himself in this position. Its probably due to gravity why the blood got that deep.
I guess that's a possibility but there's still a dearth of info re whose blood was in/on rifle/silencer by way of blood test results. In JB's case the defence were able to argue, albeit badly imo, the blood in the silencer was a mixture of NB's and June's blood from gsw's and/or NB's beating. We can refer to numerous docs for the blood test results but I can't find anything in DB's case.
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I guess that's a possibility but there's still a dearth of info re whose blood was in/on rifle/silencer by way of blood test results. In JB's case the defence were able to argue, albeit badly imo, the blood in the silencer was a mixture of NB's and June's blood from gsw's and/or NB's beating. We can refer to numerous docs for the blood test results but I can't find anything in DB's case.
There is not much comparision here as the silencer was found on the rifle in this case.
If memory serves me correctly. At DBs first trial, it was never disclosed to the defence that there was blood in the silencer/barrel. The prosecution argued that RB was shot at a distance thus couldn't commit suicide. At the second trial the defence knew about the blood so the whole prosecution argument that time round was hard for the Jury to believe.
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There is not much comparision here as the silencer was found on the rifle in this case.
If memory serves me correctly. At DBs first trial, it was never disclosed to the defence that there was blood in the silencer/barrel. The prosecution argued that RB was shot at a distance thus couldn't commit suicide. At the second trial the defence knew about the blood so the whole prosecution argument that time round was hard for the Jury to believe.
Well there was potentially blood in/on silencer/rifle from any of the vicitms: non-contact gsw's, contact gsw and/or beating SB sustained with an open wound to his head so it was surely important to determine whose blood? DB was arrested and charged on day 4.
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I'm late to this thread but my top 3 reasons for thinking Jeremy is more likely to be the killer than Sheila are:
1. The killer reloaded a complex weapon twice and fired 25 accurate shots. This implies they were experienced with firearms and in control of the situation throughout. Sheila had virtually no experience of guns.
2. Neville's injuries were inflicted by someone with considerable physical strength. I don't see how Sheila could have done this even if Neville had been wounded.
3. Jeremy's account of the call from Neville, and his reaction to it, is not convincing. Neville would not have made any call while there was a live threat from Sheila. Jeremy's call to Julie before going to the farm is equally suspicious.
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The main reasons put forward by supporters in my view are -
Julie lied to the police and courts. Because she was jilted.
There was a person alive inside WHF while Bamber and the police were outside.
The silencer evidence was fabricated. Either by the relatives or police.
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And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:
1. Don't believe NB phoned JB
2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp
3. JM's testimony
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And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:
1. Don't believe NB phoned JB
2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp
3. JM's testimony
I was going to include Julie as one of my top three reasons. Backed up by a previous thread with 26 disadvantages of Julie going to the police if Bamber was innocent. It's amazing that people believe Julie apparently being jilted would negate these 26 reasons.
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And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:
1. Don't believe NB phoned JB
2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp
3. JM's testimony
1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.
2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.
3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?
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There are 40 reasons why Bamber would not call Nevill. Already posted on here -
1: Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.
2:Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.
3:He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.
4: Neville may only get the answering machine.
5: Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.
6: Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness. So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.
7: Sheila did not like Jeremy.
8: Another adult, June was available at WHF.
9: The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
10: Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
11: Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
12: Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
13: Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed.
14: The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier.
15: Neville would be putting his only son in danger.
16: Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.
17: Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable. Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.
18: Sheila would not be pleased to see him.
19: Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.
20: Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.
21: Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.
22: Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.
23: Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option.
24: Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.
25: Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.
26: There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun.
27: When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.
28: There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.
28: Relations between the two were poor and getting worse. After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.
30: Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.
31: The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.
32: If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.
33: Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.
34: Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.
35: Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.
36: Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.
37: Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance. This is what happened.
38: Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.
39: Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.
40: It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happe
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I was going to include Julie as one of my top three reasons. Backed up by a previous thread with 26 disadvantages of Julie going to the police if Bamber was innocent. It's amazing that people believe Julie apparently being jilted would negate these 26 reasons.
I rather think it is more a case of how effective "The treacherous Stan Jones" was in convincing JM that a) JB was responsible and b) how much trouble she would be in if she didn't play ball. Just my opinion of course.
What did the police manual say about 21 year old females being interviewed over serious crimes by a middle-aged male police officer over days on end, isolated from others including her parents, and without access to legal representation?
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1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.
2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.
3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?
1. Yes
2. SC's hands were not forensically examined the way they should have been to check for contaminants but visual inspections state they were free of bloodstaining.
I don't think it is necessary to speculate about why SC and NB were downstairs when the physical evidence by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and NB was shot on the landing and main stairs when he sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow. This in itself lends support to JB's claim that NB made the call to JB from the kitchen.
3. According to the vid I uploaded and commentary from solicitor Ewan Smith (is it Ewan or Ewen?) yes the trial judge said JM's testimony alone was not enough to convict or words to this effect. Have you listened to the vid Samson? If you require assistance with any IT issues David1819 is your boy man. He has his uses.
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There are 40 reasons why Bamber would not call Nevill. Already posted on here -
1: Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.
2:Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.
3:He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.
4: Neville may only get the answering machine.
5: Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.
6: Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness. So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.
7: Sheila did not like Jeremy.
8: Another adult, June was available at WHF.
9: The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
10: Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
11: Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
12: Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
13: Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed.
14: The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier.
15: Neville would be putting his only son in danger.
16: Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.
17: Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable. Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.
18: Sheila would not be pleased to see him.
19: Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.
20: Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.
21: Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.
22: Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.
23: Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option.
24: Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.
25: Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.
26: There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun.
27: When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.
28: There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.
28: Relations between the two were poor and getting worse. After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.
30: Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.
31: The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.
32: If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.
33: Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.
34: Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.
35: Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.
36: Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.
37: Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance. This is what happened.
38: Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.
39: Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.
40: It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happe
The physical evidence at soc by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks shows NB sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow on the landing and stairs which in turn supports JB's claim that NB made the tel call from the kitchen phone.
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I rather think it is more a case of how effective "The treacherous Stan Jones" was in convincing JM that a) JB was responsible and b) how much trouble she would be in if she didn't play ball. Just my opinion of course.
What did the police manual say about 21 year old females being interviewed over serious crimes by a middle-aged male police officer over days on end, isolated from others including her parents, and without access to legal representation?
Yes, the 'treacherous' Stan Jones has been accused of fabricating the silencer evidence, writing Julie's WS & coaching Julie on court performance.
There is no evidence of any of this, but if true there is no reason why he wouldn't have also threatened Julie & persuaded her Bamber was guilty.
Julie of course approached the police in the first instance knowing Bamber was innocent but wanted to single handedly frame him. Being so devastated that he apparently jilted her. Ignoring my 26 disadvantages of attempting this.
The only reason given why Stan Jones suddenly became so corrupt has been from Lookout. Who said the relatives put the police under pressure. Although I'm sure SJ had experienced more pressure in his career. David suggested Stan Jones may have been corrupt before, although had no evidence of this.
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Yes, the 'treacherous' Stan Jones has been accused of fabricating the silencer evidence, writing Julie's WS & coaching Julie on court performance.
There is no evidence of any of this, but if true there is no reason why he wouldn't have also threatened Julie & persuaded her Bamber was guilty.
Julie of course approached the police in the first instance knowing Bamber was innocent but wanted to single handedly frame him. Being so devastated that he apparently jilted her. Ignoring my 26 disadvantages of attempting this.
The only reason given why Stan Jones suddenly became so corrupt has been from Lookout. Who said the relatives put the police under pressure. David suggested Stan Jones may have been corrupt before, although had no evidence of this.
Well imo based on his contribution to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid he doesn't seem like the brightest cookie in the tin. All he offered up was personal opinions and subjective stuff about JB's behaviour. Nothing to support his arguments by way of forensics. I doubt he had much experience of mass shootings and may well have thought JB was in fact guilty. In this regard I blame Chief Sup Harris for poor management controls and lack of oversight: allowing DS Jones to drink whilst on duty, collecting the silencer and retaining it overnight before handing it in to the station the following day; when he did hand it in he entered it into the wrong property book so that it wouldn't undergo the sort of scrutiny such an exhibit would normally undergo; carrying out most, if not all, JM's interviews.
What does the police manual for 1985 say about all of this?
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Well imo based on his contribution to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid he doesn't seem like the brightest cookie in the tin. All he offered up was personal opinions and subjective stuff about JB's behaviour. Nothing to support his arguments by way of forensics. I doubt he had much experience of mass shootings and may well have thought JB was in fact guilty. In this regard I blame Chief Sup Harris for poor management controls and lack of oversight: allowing DS Jones to drink whilst on duty, collecting the silencer and retaining it overnight before handing it in to the station the following day; when he did hand it in he entered it into the wrong property book so that it wouldn't undergo the sort of scrutiny such an exhibit would normally undergo; carrying out most, if not all, JM's interviews.
What does the police manual for 1985 say about all of this?
It seems Bamber was unlucky all round.
Julie approached the police to single handedly frame an innocent Bamber. Because he apparently jilted her.
The one organisation you would expect to stop Julie straight away would be the police. After all the evidence they had must have showed Bamber was innocent. But no, SJ jumped on board with Julie. Why ? The greedy relatives had pressurised him beforehand.
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1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.
2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.
3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?
1). Why call his son who was four miles away, so not nearby, then wait 15 plus minutes for him to arrive?. "Sheila had gone crazy"... remember?, and she needed disarming asap. You're under the illusion that Nevill was some weedy whimp who desperately needed assistance to subdue his frail daughter, and so wasted precious time on the phone, when there is no record of his son ever having helped pacify her before. They lived separate lives and hated each other's guts - " We don't get on... I don't like her and she doesn't like me" and "She's used all the weapons in the house before" - waiting police were told. But that was a false flag to scare the $hit out of them and make Sheila out to be armed and dangerous, a latter day Bonnie Parker, when nothing could be further from the truth. Nevill was a tough, strong farmer, a wartime fighter/bomber pilot, a lifelong weapon-user who knew the damage they could do, and who towered over his daughter by a good 9"... yet you say he allowed her to slip past him with a fully-loaded rifle to take potshots at his wife and grandsons!? What did he think they were?... fairground ducks?
2). His mouth was severely damaged so he must have been spitting out plenty blood, and any attempt to beat him on the face and arms with the butt and barrel whilst close up, as there most definitely was, would inevitably result in blood being spattered onto her face, arms, hands and clothing. Yet there was not a trace on Sheila when she should have been covered in it, so she'd need to do more than wash her hands after such a confrontation.
3). Ten out of twelve thought otherwise.
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1). Why call his son who was four miles away, so not nearby, then wait 15 plus minutes for him to arrive?. "Sheila had gone crazy"... remember?, and she needed disarming asap. You're under the illusion that Nevill was some weedy whimp who desperately needed assistance to subdue his frail daughter, and so wasted precious time on the phone, when there is no record of his son ever having helped pacify her before. They lived separate lives and hated each other's guts - " We don't get on... I don't like her and she doesn't like me" and "She's used all the weapons in the house before" - waiting police were told. But that was a false flag to scare the $hit out of them and make Sheila out to be armed and dangerous, a latter day Bonnie Parker, when nothing could be further from the truth. Nevill was a tough, strong farmer, a wartime fighter/bomber pilot, a lifelong weapon-user who knew the damage they could do, and who towered over his daughter by a good 9"... yet you say he allowed her to slip past him with a fully-loaded rifle to take potshots at his wife and grandsons!? What did he think they were?... fairground ducks?
2). His mouth was severely damaged so he must have been spitting out plenty blood, and any attempt to beat him on the face and arms with the butt and barrel whilst close up, as there most definitely was, would inevitably result in blood being spattered onto her face, arms, hands and clothing. Yet there was not a trace on Sheila when she should have been covered in it, so she'd need to do more than wash her hands after such a confrontation.
3). Ten out of twelve thought otherwise.
Bamber arrived 40 minutes later, rather than 15. And didn't go within 50 of WHF. And there was poor Nevill waiting for the doorbell to ring.
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It seems Bamber was unlucky all round.
Julie approached the police to single handedly frame an innocent Bamber. Because he apparently jilted her.
The one organisation you would expect to stop Julie straight away would be the police. After all the evidence they had must have showed Bamber was innocent. But no, SJ jumped on board with Julie. Why ? The greedy relatives had pressurised him beforehand.
I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting. As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:
1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart
In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses. The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible. At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically. In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.
Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year
I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US.
I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM.
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I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting. As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:
1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart
In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses. The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible. At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically. In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.
Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year
I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US. .
I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM.
That must be it. Everyone was out of their depth.
I've asked why Neville didn't leave the front door open for Bamber & the police. There is no point asking them to come over and save a situation him & June can't resolve, if no one can get in.
The only response has been from Lookout. Who suggested Nevill did attempt to get to the front door. The reason - Nevill was found in the kitchen, but some newspapers apparently & incorrectly reported that Nevill was found in the hallway.
So is using an alleged incorrect newspaper report to support a suggestion At least Nug's suggestion that RB shot himself is based on the proven fact that there was blood in the silencer.
Any other suggestions will be appreciated.
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I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting. As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:
1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart
In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses. The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible. At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically. In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.
Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year
I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US. I hope if it is legally possible they will one day end up serving time behind bars for incompetence/negligence.
I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM.
Taxi driver Michael Atherton - 2012
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1. Yes
2. SC's hands were not forensically examined the way they should have been to check for contaminants but visual inspections state they were free of bloodstaining.
I don't think it is necessary to speculate about why SC and NB were downstairs when the physical evidence by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and NB was shot on the landing and main stairs when he sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow. This in itself lends support to JB's claim that NB made the call to JB from the kitchen.
3. According to the vid I uploaded and commentary from solicitor Ewan Smith (is it Ewan or Ewen?) yes the trial judge said JM's testimony alone was not enough to convict or words to this effect. Have you listened to the vid Samson? If you require assistance with any IT issues David1819 is your boy man. He has his uses.
2. So why wasn't there a pile of blood on the worktop, the floor by the kitchen phone or on the phone handset itself? I'll tell you why...because Nevill never made any phone call.
3. The judge was correct. Julie's testimony by itself was insuffient to convict Bamber but taken with everything else it did constitute sufficient evidence to convict.
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The physical evidence at soc by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks shows NB sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow on the landing and stairs which in turn supports JB's claim that NB made the tel call from the kitchen phone.
No it doesn't, there is no evidence Nevill made any telephone call from the kitchen after being severely wounded. In addition, he was shot in the face/jaw so would have had great difficulty speaking. I believe we have covered this in some detail previously.
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That must be it. Everyone was out of their depth.
I've asked why Neville didn't leave the front door open for Bamber & the police. There is no point asking them to come over and save a situation him & June can't resolve, if no one can get in.
The only response has been from Lookout. Who suggested Nevill did attempt to get to the front door. The reason - Nevill was found in the kitchen, but some newspapers apparently & incorrectly reported that Nevill was found in the hallway.
So is using an alleged incorrect newspaper report to support a suggestion At least Nug's suggestion that RB shot himself is based on the proven fact that there was blood in the silencer.
Any other suggestions will be appreciated.
Another good point which I haven't seen mentioned before. Nevill would indeed have unbolted the farmhouse door if he was expecting Jeremy to come over.
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No it doesn't, there is no evidence Nevill made any telephone call from the kitchen after being severely wounded. In addition, he was shot in the face/jaw so would have had great difficulty speaking. I believe we have covered this in some detail previously.
Nevill made the phone call before he was wounded.
The fact Jeremy did not hear Sheila shooting June upstairs does not mean it did not happen, it means the sound was sufficient in the kitchen but not to transmit through the mouth piece to the phone at the other end. Telephones rquire close speaking, they are designed that way to avoid ambient noise ruining the experience for the person at the other end.
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Nevill made the phone call before he was wounded.
The fact Jeremy did not hear Sheila shooting June upstairs does not mean it did not happen, it means the sound was sufficient in the kitchen but not to transmit through the mouth piece to the phone at the other end. Telephones rquire close speaking, they are designed that way to avoid ambient noise ruining the experience for the person at the other end.
It's very doubtful Nevill would hear upstairs shots while downstairs, Bamber certainly wouldn't from his end.
However the popular suggestion is Nevill heard upstairs shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone. Which explains why Nevill only said 11 words to Bamber before the phone went dead.
Another suggestion from Lookout is that Nevill heard upstairs shots while waiting for Bamber to answer. But assumed Sheila was firing warning shots into the air.
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Taxi driver Michael Atherton - 2012
Thanks. Yes I forgot about him. The categories are a bit hit and miss. I found 'mass shootings' within 'massacres'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Great_Britain
I don't know why Hart features but not Atherton as they both killed 3. WHF doesn't feature probably as JB falls under a different category!
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No it doesn't, there is no evidence Nevill made any telephone call from the kitchen after being severely wounded. In addition, he was shot in the face/jaw so would have had great difficulty speaking. I believe we have covered this in some detail previously.
John it seems most in the innocent camp capable of analytical thought (which by definition excludes most on Blue, CT and JB) eg Charlie Wilkes (from IA), David1819, Nostalgia-NZ (who I think is about to join us £&%£), Samson and myself believe the physical evidence at soc by way of bloodstaining and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks supports the following:
- NB and SC downstairs. How long they had been downstairs, the reasons and their exact locations may never be known and matters not in the grand scheme of things.
- NB made the phone call to JB from the kitchen.
- Meanwhile SC went upstairs and shot June either 5 or 6 times.
- NB hearing the shots dropped the handset on the kitchen worktop and went upstairs. When he was on the landing stairs he came face-to-face with SC who was standing just inside the bedroom and inflicted NB's facial gsw's. NB turned and was then on the main staircase facing down towards the front door and hall. SC followed and inflicted the gsw's to the rear of NB: shoulder and elbow/chest graze.
The guilty scenario for many, along with the general prosecution case at trial, is along the lines of JB entering NB and June's bedroom under stealth and shooting them whilst they were in bed and in the process of getting out of.
It is evident from various trial testimony that the experts, defence and prosecution did not attempt a reconstruction. As far as I can see the only way in which this can be progressed now and possibly concluded one way or another is by experts entering WHF to carry out a reconstruction using the latest forensic techniques. If it goes the way I think it will then it should be possible to create an animated 3d model for use as a court exhibit.
http://www.knoxforensics.com/shoot.php
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28089298
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Have you ever handled a gun, fired one, shot any animal or been shot yourself? I can tell you now that had Sheila shot herself at point blank range she and the rifle would have been covered in blood smears. You don't shoot yourself twice in the neck and come out of it looking pristine "without a hair out of place" as her cousin David Boutflour previously commented.
Imagine having a red hot poker shoved in your neck for several inches at over a thousand miles per hour (550 m/s)?
There is a difference between smears and spatter or splatter in forensics. Throwing words about in such a manner shows you don't have the basics right. But please explain why no forensic expert at trial suggested Sheila should have been covered in blood 'smears.'
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I hardly understand any of your stuff, Samson - either on here, blue or I.A. Maybe it's your intention to be obscure.
How can the gun be almost totally devoid of prints? If you're right then Sheila must have handled it, carried it, reloaded it, chambered it, used it as a club...maybe Nevill tried to wrestle it from her in the kitchen...then she shot herself (twice!), so she must have gripped the end of the barrel at that point - but no prints, either smeared or clear. (I know about her ring-finger print, which is more damning for Bamber, IMO).
What do you think?
Few firearms have prints on them, a figure I recall is that the absence of prints is around the 80% mark or higher. Hollywood writers have made a meal out of 'solving' crimes with fingerprints, but that's in movies.
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A moderator has to be quite short for drawback to be able to travel through it into the rifle barrel. There was blood on the outside of the barrel in the Bain case not inside the rifle barrel.
The more I read about that case the more I think they got it wrong in reversing his conviction.
The trial evidence of Peter Ross has already been placed on here there was blood through the silencer and into the rifle barrel.
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I don't doubt N-NZ would deliberately mislead and/or isn't careful with the facts but its easy enough to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or experts can get it wrong. Many of the docs in these cases are ambiguous.
Research by Prof MacDonnell, NY, who was at one time regarded as a world expert on bloodstains, until his reputation was badly damaged by using his position as a forensic scientist to intimidate a child and further counts of child sex abuse, seems to contradict the distance blood can travel against the line of fire in DB's case. Albeit the research is based on gsw's fired at a short distance as opposed to contact. I don't know the length of the silencer in the Bain case but assuming it was similar in size to the one referred to in JB's case (approx 7") then I'm really struggling with blood travelling this far back and depositing in the rifle barrel. There's a correlation between calibre and distance blood can travel back against the line of fire. As you know .22 is considered low-powered.
Finally I get to the post I came to answer Holly, yours. Although hidden from the first Jury from memory the Peter Ross evidence confirmed case notes and was never disputed at the retrial. In other words the Crown accepted the evidence. The DiMaio book which you linked to on another thread explained this. It seems that you are not appreciating other evidence from the Bain trial that there was no exit wound from the skull and that the significant damage caused by the velocity of the bullet as it exhausted its kinetic energy inside the skull, ie continuing on an altering course, increased pressure in the skull from which there was only one exhaust point - the wound. The difference with Sheila is that the shot was to the neck and the size of the 'flake.' The flake is inconsistent with high speed spatter because of its size, that size, the wound site, and other factors more probably that note exclude the flake (if it indeed has every probably been analysed) as having arrived in the silencer contemporaneously with Sheila's death. That fact, along with there not being credible evidence dealing with trajectories that can show that NB was shot in the bedroom indicating that he was more likely shot on the stairs, having been turned away by gunfire, display that Sheila shot NB and the others before suiciding as the circumstances of her own death indicate.
Just a quick trip at this stage, and I have made a few other comments in answer to some points made by others that are clearly wrong - dealing with 40 point lists about phone calls and other such nonsense while ignoring the crime scene are a waste of time. But cheers.
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Finally I get to the post I came to answer Holly, yours. Although hidden from the first Jury from memory the Peter Ross evidence confirmed case notes and was never disputed at the retrial. In other words the Crown accepted the evidence. The DiMaio book which you linked to on another thread explained this. It seems that you are not appreciating other evidence from the Bain trial that there was no exit wound from the skull and that the significant damage caused by the velocity of the bullet as it exhausted its kinetic energy inside the skull, ie continuing on an altering course, increased pressure in the skull from which there was only one exhaust point - the wound. The difference with Sheila is that the shot was to the neck and the size of the 'flake.' The flake is inconsistent with high speed spatter because of its size, that size, the wound site, and other factors more probably that note exclude the flake (if it indeed has every probably been analysed) as having arrived in the silencer contemporaneously with Sheila's death. That fact, along with there not being credible evidence dealing with trajectories that can show that NB was shot in the bedroom indicating that he was more likely shot on the stairs, having been turned away by gunfire, display that Sheila shot NB and the others before suiciding as the circumstances of her own death indicate.
Just a quick trip at this stage, and I have made a few other comments in answer to some points made by others that are clearly wrong - dealing with 40 point lists about phone calls and other such nonsense while ignoring the crime scene are a waste of time. But cheers.
Hi N-NZ. I know very little about the Bain case so I'm sure you're right. I'm just surprised that I've been unable to find any confirmation re the blood inside the barrel and silencer. As I said up thread I can produce numerous official docs showing the blood test results for all victims at WHF, JB and the flake. But this might just be down to the fact that there are more official docs available on www re WHF.
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Nevill made the phone call before he was wounded.
The fact Jeremy did not hear Sheila shooting June upstairs does not mean it did not happen, it means the sound was sufficient in the kitchen but not to transmit through the mouth piece to the phone at the other end. Telephones rquire close speaking, they are designed that way to avoid ambient noise ruining the experience for the person at the other end.
Had there been shots Nevill would have told Jeremy. In any event, Nevill was shot when he got up from his bed, he was not shot coming up the stairs or on the landings. You really must follow the forensic evidence Samson.
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Had there been shots Nevill would have told Jeremy. In any event, Nevill was shot when he got up from his bed, he was not shot coming up the stairs or on the landings. You really must follow the forensic evidence Samson.
If we can show he was shot coming up the stairs would that change your view of Jeremy's guilt? We discussed this for weeks on IA and the best reconstruction MikeG, architect who drew the pictures, could produce was Nevill swinging his feet around and being shot in the shoulder while still lying back. This does not work, and eventually he gave up.
On the reco that Holly worked out everything fits perfectly, with the phone call, then the shots upstairs, then the ascent up the stairs into gunfire in the mouth. He got close alright.
In answer to Nevill would have told Jeremy she was shooting, we have a lot of claims of what would be done or said in all these cases, assertions without evidence, and there are alternatives. For example stunned silence at the realisation Sheila was actually using the gun
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Sorry for not introducing myself yesterday when I posted. I've from NZ as anyone would expect. Became interested in this case only recently after avoiding it for many years. I agree with Holly about a re-enactment or animation, but not necessarily that WHF would have to be used. If 3 areas were created, the stairs, master bedroom and kitchen I'm confident the debate would be less diluted with irrelevancies.
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Had there been shots Nevill would have told Jeremy. In any event, Nevill was shot when he got up from his bed, he was not shot coming up the stairs or on the landings. You really must follow the forensic evidence Samson.
Hi John. I fear you have misunderstood the case and fallen into the trap of false assumptions about the forensics. We know the trajectory of the shot to NB's shoulder and you are welcome to be the first person in the world to show how it could have happened in the bedroom.
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Hi John. I fear you have misunderstood the case and fallen into the trap of false assumptions about the forensics. We know the trajectory of the shot to NB's shoulder and you are welcome to be the first person in the world to show how it could have happened in the bedroom.
Remind us how long have you been interested in this case?
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A reminder please: can we stick to debating the facts of the case as we perceive them and refrain from making any personal comments. Thank you.
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Sorry for not introducing myself yesterday when I posted. I've from NZ as anyone would expect. Became interested in this case only recently after avoiding it for many years. I agree with Holly about a re-enactment or animation, but not necessarily that WHF would have to be used. If 3 areas were created, the stairs, master bedroom and kitchen I'm confident the debate would be less diluted with irrelevancies.
Welcom N NZ and Samson from New Zealand. We now have an international dimension to the board with member Scipio from the US. 8(>((
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A reminder please: can we stick to debating the facts of the case as we perceive them and refrain from making any personal comments. Thank you.
What personal comments?
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What personal comments?
I viewed some comments made on the board during the last 24 hours, from both camps, to contain a personal element. Therefore for the benefit of all members, new and existing, I issued a polite reminder that @ Uk Justice Forum we seek to debate the facts of the case as we perceive them without malice.
Off to watch England v Lithuania world cup qualifier 8(*(
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I viewed some comments made on the board during the last 24 hours, from both camps, to contain a personal element. Therefore for the benefit of all members, new and existing, I issued a polite reminder that @ Uk Justice Forum we seek to debate the facts of the case as we perceive them without malice.
Off to watch England v Lithuania world cup qualifier 8(*(
Seeking is always useful - finding is a tad more difficult! 8(0(*
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Remind us how long have you been interested in this case?
Long enough to work out that Sheila suicided and NB was shot by her on the stairs.
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Long enough to work out that Sheila suicided and NB was shot by her on the stairs.
Clearly not long enough - no where near!
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Clearly not long enough - no where near!
Certainly more than enough time. No need for rumours and speculation just the crime scene facts.
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I viewed some comments made on the board during the last 24 hours, from both camps, to contain a personal element. Therefore for the benefit of all members, new and existing, I issued a polite reminder that @ Uk Justice Forum we seek to debate the facts of the case as we perceive them without malice.
Off to watch England v Lithuania world cup qualifier 8(*(
Had a sort of revelation this morning about the British conviction review authority. They have authorised forensic testing in other cases for applicants, and I believe they may have done so for Bamber previously. Is there any reason they would not order a reconstruction or animation based on the crime scene evidence which appears to strongly exclude NB having been shot in the shoulder anywhere but on the stairs. The same could apply to the mantle scratches which are also inconsistent with the claim that they arrived there during a fight of some sort.
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Had a sort of revelation this morning about the British conviction review authority. They have authorised forensic testing in other cases for applicants, and I believe they may have done so for Bamber previously. Is there any reason they would not order a reconstruction or animation based on the crime scene evidence which appears to strongly exclude NB having been shot in the shoulder anywhere but on the stairs. The same could apply to the mantle scratches which are also inconsistent with the claim that they arrived there during a fight of some sort.
I think you mean the Criminal Case Review Commission (CCRC)? They won't be organising any reconstructions and have already looked into the mantel scratches.
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There is a difference between smears and spatter or splatter in forensics. Throwing words about in such a manner shows you don't have the basics right. But please explain why no forensic expert at trial suggested Sheila should have been covered in blood 'smears.'
Throwing words about? Apparently it is you who don't seem to understand the basics as to what trauma a human being goes through after being hit by a speeding bullet at point blank range. This is not the movies you know?
I suggest you read through the threads which relate to the subject before casting aspersions on my knowledge of the case.
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If we can show he was shot coming up the stairs would that change your view of Jeremy's guilt? We discussed this for weeks on IA and the best reconstruction MikeG, architect who drew the pictures, could produce was Nevill swinging his feet around and being shot in the shoulder while still lying back. This does not work, and eventually he gave up.
On the reco that Holly worked out everything fits perfectly, with the phone call, then the shots upstairs, then the ascent up the stairs into gunfire in the mouth. He got close alright.
In answer to Nevill would have told Jeremy she was shooting, we have a lot of claims of what would be done or said in all these cases, assertions without evidence, and there are alternatives. For example stunned silence at the realisation Sheila was actually using the gun
The position of the empty shell casings attributed to both Nevill and June evidence a shooter who had just entered the master bedroom unless you are suggesting that the police placed the casings there for some sinister reason?
There is no mystery about this evidence. Had Nevill been shot on the stairs or the landing the casings would all have been found on the stairs. Its that simple. Changing the evidence to support speculation that Sheila fired the rifle does work I'm afraid.
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Hi John. I fear you have misunderstood the case and fallen into the trap of false assumptions about the forensics. We know the trajectory of the shot to NB's shoulder and you are welcome to be the first person in the world to show how it could have happened in the bedroom.
The trajectory of the bullet is of no significance since it cannot prove or disprove anything. Only Nevill's killer knows at what angle he came at him, whether he knelt, ducked down or turned sideways to avoid the shots.
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Long enough to work out that Sheila suicided and NB was shot by her on the stairs.
Impossible by reason already given.
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Had a sort of revelation this morning about the British conviction review authority. They have authorised forensic testing in other cases for applicants, and I believe they may have done so for Bamber previously. Is there any reason they would not order a reconstruction or animation based on the crime scene evidence which appears to strongly exclude NB having been shot in the shoulder anywhere but on the stairs. The same could apply to the mantle scratches which are also inconsistent with the claim that they arrived there during a fight of some sort.
A reconstruction is unnecessary. Close scrutiny of the forensic evidence reveals everything we ever needed to know. Jeremy Bamber's attempt to implicate his sister by creating a murder/suicide scenario within a locked farmhouse was his undoing.
Team Bamber have had 30+ years to come up with evidence in support of Jeremy but failed miserably. The reason for this failure is very simple, there isn't any. All the scratched mantelpieces and bloodied silencers in the world will never add up to anything capable of overturning Bamber's conviction.
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A reconstruction is unnecessary. Close scrutiny of the forensic evidence reveals everything we ever needed to know. Jeremy Bamber's attempt to implicate his sister by creating a murder/suicide scenario within a locked farmhouse was his undoing.
Team Bamber have had 30+ years to come up with evidence in support of Jeremy but failed miserably. The reason for this failure is very simple, there isn't any. All the scratched mantelpieces and bloodied silencers in the world will never add up to anything capable of overturning Bamber's conviction.
The fact experts didn't enter WHF other than Dr Vanezis who said he wasn't aware of the position of cartridges (casings) and where NB was shot says it all imo:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
Afaik to scale drawings of WHF were never produced.
There's too much that doesn't add up for the 'JB burst into his parents bedroom and shot them' scenario:
- None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom: bedding, carpet despite confirmation from Dr Vanezis that the facial wounds contained a rich blood supply
- Two casings in the left hand corner of the bedroom (lhc upon entering)
- One casing on the transition strip
- One casing on the landing
- The casings above do not support the theory NB sustained gsw's whilst in bed and getting out of
- The gsw's NB sustained to his face and the shoulder and elbow/chest to his rear all had downward trajectories. How could he sustain all these gsw's whilst in bed and in the process of getting out of? Bearing in mind the gsw's to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches and the shoulder and elbow shots from a distance of at least 2' feet away.
NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase fits with all the physcial evidence imo. The only way to prove this one way or another is by experts carrying out a proper reconstruction which afaik to date has never been carried out.
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The fact experts didn't enter WHF other than Dr Vanezis who said he wasn't aware of the position of cartridges (casings) and where NB was shot says it all imo:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
Afaik to scale drawings of WHF were never produced.
There's too much that doesn't add up for the 'JB burst into his parents bedroom and shot them' scenario:
- None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom: bedding, carpet despite confirmation from Dr Vanezis that the facial wounds contained a rich blood supply
- Two casings in the left hand corner of the bedroom (lhc upon entering)
- One casing on the transition strip
- One casing on the landing
- The casings above do not support the theory NB sustained gsw's whilst in bed and getting out of
- The gsw's NB sustained to his face and the shoulder and elbow/chest to his rear all had downward trajectories. How could he sustain all these gsw's whilst in bed and in the process of getting out of? Bearing in mind the gsw's to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches and the shoulder and elbow shots from a distance of at least 2' feet away.
NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase fits with all the physcial evidence imo. The only way to prove this one way or another is by experts carrying out a proper reconstruction which afaik to date has never been carried out.
Holly, it would have been impossible for the empty casings to have ended up where they did in the bedroom had Nevill been shot on the stairs coming up. Bullets don't fly round corners!!
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Holly, it would have been impossible for the empty casings to have ended up where they did in the bedroom had Nevill been shot on the stairs coming up. Bullets don't fly round corners!!
There's no need for anything to fly around corners in my scenario. This is reason I think a computerised animated 3d reconstruction to scale is required to see what works and what doesn't. Autopsy photos of the victims exist so it should be possible to incoporate them into a scaled model. Although I'm not suggesting anything this graphic should be bandied about indiscrimately. There's so much data available that it should be possible to advance this one way or another. I have my version firmly embedded in my mind but I accept I am not an expert in any related field.
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Had a sort of revelation this morning about the British conviction review authority. They have authorised forensic testing in other cases for applicants, and I believe they may have done so for Bamber previously. Is there any reason they would not order a reconstruction or animation based on the crime scene evidence which appears to strongly exclude NB having been shot in the shoulder anywhere but on the stairs. The same could apply to the mantle scratches which are also inconsistent with the claim that they arrived there during a fight of some sort.
N NZ how it works is that once convicted prisoners appeal direct to the appeal courts. If the conviction is quashed then that's that. If the conviction is upheld the prisoner then appeals via the Criminal Cases Review Commission:
http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/
However as you will see from the above it is down to the prisoner to submit an application and put together all supporting material. Nothing is available by way of legal assistance and/or funding for experts until/unless the CCRC refer the case to the appeal courts.
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I think you mean the Criminal Case Review Commission (CCRC)? They won't be organising any reconstructions and have already looked into the mantel scratches.
As I understand it the scratches to the mantel are not a dead duck so to speak. The CCRC said more info is required. I guess this is the reason the CT have the begging bowl out in this regard. Although I do agree this is one aspect of the case that could be pursued unlike many aspects the CT pursue.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensics-fund-sc
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence (point 5)
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There's no need for anything to fly around corners in my scenario. This is reason I think a computerised animated 3d reconstruction to scale is required to see what works and what doesn't. Autopsy photos of the victims exist so it should be possible to incoporate them into a scaled model. Although I'm not suggesting anything this graphic should be bandied about indiscrimately. There's so much data available that it should be possible to advance this one way or another. I have my version firmly embedded in my mind but I accept I am not an expert in any related field.
What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle. This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.
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A reminder to all members that inappropriate comments will not be tolerated on this forum. We are here to discuss the Bamber case in a methodical and constructive manner. Posts can be combative yet amiable, anything less than that will not be tolerated.
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What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle. This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.
Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.
Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.
Note for Holls. Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed. He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor. He was shocked when he saw the police photos after he had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.
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Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.
Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.
Note for Holls. Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed. He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor. He was shocked when he saw the police photos after her had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.
The hoax is secured with nonsense written by the incredulous.
We have repeatedly reconstructed a crime scene where no physical interaction happened between Sheila and anyone.
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The hoax is secured with nonsense written by the incredulous.
We have repeatedly reconstructed a crime scene where no physical interaction happened between Sheila and anyone.
The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.
Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!
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The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.
Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!
Extremely laughable since Sheila doted on Nevill and he in turn would do anything for her. The wastrel on the other hand is another story.
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What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle. This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.
Yes I agree the forum has debated this extensively and it's a pity the defender and prosecutor at trial didn't do the same with the aide of expert witnesses. Instead it was completely overlooked.
Clearly long rifles and ammo designed to kill vermin are not meant for use in domestic dwellings. There appears to be a perception that if the perp pulled the trigger within one room then the fall out was restricted to that room by way out of victims sustaining injuries and casings. This isn't the way I see it, albeit I have no experience or qualifications in this area so I might be completely wrong. My interpreation of the soc leads me to conclude that the perp was stood around the entrance of the main bedroom and fired out onto the landing at NB who was on the landing stairs. This accounts for casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 and the downward trajectories of NB's facial wounds if NB was stood on the landing stairs preceding the bedroom and the perp elevated. NB then turned and retreated to the main staircase facing down towards the hall with the perp, SC imo, behind who inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest which accounts for casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 on the landing and transistion strip and again the downward trajectories of the gsw's.
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Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.
Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.
Note for Holls. Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed. He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor. He was shocked when he saw the police photos after he had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.
Based on trial testimony from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight there doesn't appear to be anything conclusive about the burns. Personally I think the burns are unrelated to soc. Did anyone check NB's medi records for old injuries?
Many of the others aspects of the case you have mentioned are largely irrelevant post trial. By this I mean they are not capable of advancing the case one way or another post conviction so there's little point, if any, in discussing them further.
The fact SC was of average build and above average height based on the average British female in the 1980's is neither here nor there. If SC was the perp she had the upper hand in that she was in possession of a loaded firearm.
You seem to have a mental image of how a woman would appear having carried out the WHF massacre which in your opinion is incompatiable with soc?
Police surgeon, Dr Craig, with 30 years experience visted soc at circa 8.30pm, he was of the opinion SC was responsible and had taken her own life. Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones had between them some 60 plus years experience and had presided over some 100 murder investigations. They both concluded SC was responsible. I have no doubt in the final analysis they will be proved right.
I'm not sure what else the pathologist could have learned from observing SC at soc? He obviously had the benefit of soc images. No doubt his verdict would have remained the same ie unable to confirm murder or suicide?
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The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.
Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!
I've never thought of NB as a "strapping farmer" and/or SC as a "feeble daughter". To my mind it wouldn't matter if it was a case of Mike Tyson and Minnie Mouse. If Minnie Mouse was in possession of a loaded firearm she would call the shots.
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Extremely laughable since Sheila doted on Nevill and he in turn would do anything for her. The wastrel on the other hand is another story.
Where's the evidence SC "doted" on NB? Her psychiatrist said "Her relationship with Mr Bamber appeared more supportive and trusting". This was from a low starting point describing her realtionship with June.
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I've never thought of NB as a "strapping farmer" and/or SC as a "feeble daughter". To my mind it wouldn't matter if it was a case of Mike Tyson and Minnie Mouse. If Minnie Mouse was in possession of a loaded firearm she would call the shots.
Myster thinks of you as HOL9000 - a mild-mannered, softly-spoken, sentient super-computer...... who is also extremely stubborn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t)
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Yes I agree the forum has debated this extensively and it's a pity the defender and prosecutor at trial didn't do the same with the aide of expert witnesses. Instead it was completely overlooked.
Clearly long rifles and ammo designed to kill vermin are not meant for use in domestic dwellings. There appears to be a perception that if the perp pulled the trigger within one room then the fall out was restricted to that room by way out of victims sustaining injuries and casings. This isn't the way I see it, albeit I have no experience or qualifications in this area so I might be completely wrong. My interpreation of the soc leads me to conclude that the perp was stood around the entrance of the main bedroom and fired out onto the landing at NB who was on the landing stairs. This accounts for casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 and the downward trajectories of NB's facial wounds if NB was stood on the landing stairs preceding the bedroom and the perp elevated. NB then turned and retreated to the main staircase facing down towards the hall with the perp, SC imo, behind who inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest which accounts for casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 on the landing and transistion strip and again the downward trajectories of the gsw's.
Nearly all the casings associated with the initial assault on Nevill and June's murder were found in their bedroom indicating the shooter was either in that bedroom or just inside the door. There is no other logical reason why those casings were there. Their position on the bed and on the floor are an extremely good indicator of what took place.
The trajectory arguments are not valid since Nevill's position relative to the gunman at any given point in time cannot be determined. If someone pointed a rifle at you Holly and threatened to fire it what angle would you be to them?
Undoubtedly the shooter was shocked to find that his victims were not rats and that one or two bullets from a .22 rifle were totally indequate in putting down an adult human being. He ran out of bullets quickly and had to retreat downstairs to get more ammunition closely followed by Nevill who stumbled against the stairs leaving a trace of blood on the wall. A fight ensued in the kitchen as the shooter didn't have enough time to reload before Nevill got to him. This fight was Bamber's undoing.
Team Bamber have never been able to come up with any scenario which places Sheila in that fight.
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Myster thinks of you as HOL9000 - a mild-mannered, softly-spoken, sentient super-computer...... who is also extremely stubborn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t)
Hmmmmm I'm nost sure my willpower is capable of overcoming an attractive male astronaut with piercing blue eyes barking orders at me in outta space! At least the lack of gravity would prevent me from swooning and keep me in an upright position!
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Nearly all the casings associated with the initial assault on Nevill and June's murder were found in their bedroom indicating the shooter was either in that bedroom or just inside the door. There is no other logical reason why those casings were there. Their position on the bed and on the floor are an extremely good indicator of what took place.
The trajectory arguments are not valid since Nevill's position relative to the gunman at any given point in time cannot be determined. If someone pointed a rifle at you Holly and threatened to fire it what angle would you be to them?
Undoubtedly the shooter was shocked to find that his victims were not rats and that one or two bullets from a .22 rifle were totally indequate in putting down an adult human being. He ran out of bullets quickly and had to retreat downstairs to get more ammunition closely followed by Nevill who stumbled against the stairs leaving a trace of blood on the wall. A fight ensued in the kitchen as the shooter didn't have enough time to reload before Nevill got to him. This fight was Bamber's undoing.
Team Bamber have never been able to come up with any scenario which places Sheila in that fight.
Based on trial testimony from Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher we cannot even be sure if June sustained 5 or 6 gsw's to her body. I am inclined to think she sustained 6 gsw's to her body and 2 gsw's to her head: 7 entered, 3 exited and 1 gsw was a graze only wound. The graze only wound represented by bullet DRH/5. This would then account for the 8 casings found around June's side of the bed and the 4 bullets: DRH/35 x 2, DRH/9 and DRH/5.
The other four casings: DRH: 3, 4, 13 and 14 do not imo lend to NB being shot whilst in bed or in the process of getting out of.
The track of the bullet [upon entry to the body] determines the position of the gun. The pathologist in the Bain case explains @ 8 mins in:
"Allows you to reconstruct the direction that the barrel was pointing in. Because that is one of the things you can do in the reconstruction of gunshot wounds unless there's some intervening target. You line up the track of the bullet with the barrel of the gun."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gt4QmUG5k
In the case of WHF the gsw's are all close range that factors that fall under 'external ballistics' such as air resistance, drag and gravity do not apply:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics
Dr Vanezis makes clear the trajectories of NB's gsw's to his face were both some 20 degrees below the horizontal. This imo is one of the most important pieces of evidence from soc coupled with the fact he also states the trajectories to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's were also downwards.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676
You can see here how laser trajectory analysis was used in the reconstruction of JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5JDhi4URds
The experts incl lawyers and judge at JB's trial were imo complete numpties and/or just bone idle and couldn't be a***d. We now have trial tanscripts from Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher and it is clear this aspect of the case was not even touched on at trial.
Trajectory analysis of gsw's is a sound forensic technique which should have been used at JB's trial to establish the relative postions of shooter and victim:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28089298/
The trajectories imo throw serious doubt of the prosecution case that JB entered his parents bedroom and opened fire. It all points to SC already in the bedroom shooting June with NB shot on the landing and stairs as he approached and then retreated. The good news is that soc experts should still be able to prove this one way or another by assessing the layout of WHF, soc images and autopsy report and photos.
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Based on trial testimony from Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher we cannot even be sure if June sustained 5 or 6 gsw's to her body. I am inclined to think she sustained 6 gsw's to her body and 2 gsw's to her head: 7 entered, 3 exited and 1 gsw was a graze only wound. The graze only wound represented by bullet DRH/5. This would then account for the 8 casings found around June's side of the bed and the 4 bullets: DRH/35 x 2, DRH/9 and DRH/5.
The other four casings: DRH: 3, 4, 13 and 14 do not imo lend to NB being shot whilst in bed or in the process of getting out of.
The track of the bullet [upon entry to the body] determines the position of the gun. The pathologist in the Bain case explains @ 8 mins in:
"Allows you to reconstruct the direction that the barrel was pointing in. Because that is one of the things you can do in the reconstruction of gunshot wounds unless there's some intervening target. You line up the track of the bullet with the barrel of the gun."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gt4QmUG5k
In the case of WHF the gsw's are all close range that factors that fall under 'external ballistics' such as air resistance, drag and gravity do not apply:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics
Dr Vanezis makes clear the trajectories of NB's gsw's to his face were both some 20 degrees below the horizontal. This imo is one of the most important pieces of evidence from soc coupled with the fact he also states the trajectories to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's were also downwards.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676
You can see here how laser trajectory analysis was used in the reconstruction of JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5JDhi4URds
The experts incl lawyers and judge at JB's trial were imo complete numpties and/or just bone idle and couldn't be a***d. We now have trial tanscripts from Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher and it is clear this aspect of the case was not even touched on at trial.
Trajectory analysis of gsw's is a sound forensic technique which should have been used at JB's trial to establish the relative postions of shooter and victim:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28089298/
The trajectories imo throw serious doubt of the prosecution case that JB entered his parents bedroom and opened fire. It all points to SC already in the bedroom shooting June with NB shot on the landing and stairs as he approached and then retreated. The good news is that soc experts should still be able to prove this one way or another by assessing the layout of WHF, soc images and autopsy report and photos.
There is no way to prove trajectories Holly. As for when Nevill was shot, it could have happened any time from the moment he woke up until he reached the bedroom door. My own view is that he was shot after he got up otherwise there was every likelihood that a bullet would have been found in his pillow or on his side of the bed. The absence of his blood on his pillows or on his side of the bed would also appear to support this proposition.
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There is no way to prove trajectories Holly. As for when Nevill was shot, it could have happened any time from the moment he woke up until he reached the bedroom door. My own view is that he was shot after he got up otherwise there was every likelihood that a bullet would have been found in his pillow or on his side of the bed. The absence of his blood on his pillows or on his side of the bed would also appear to support this proposition.
To support this view there will be a logical/logistical narrative to explain how he received the two downward face shots, the two downward left arm shots, while standing, and where he was standing.
Also to be addressed is why he was allowed to progress so far from the bed, and why any executioner would expend 5 shots to a sleeping woman first.
This is the absolute heart of the matter, and why video reconstructions can progress the case best, your theory or Holly's theory. It is the simplicity of Holly's theory, along with the compliant position for Sheila being shot, ie self delivery rather than being shepherded into position, that ties the scene into a satisfactory whole, and means Taff wins hands down over Stan. Except he didn't.....
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To support this view there will be a logical/logistical narrative to explain how he received the two downward face shots, the two downward left arm shots, while standing, and where he was standing.
Also to be addressed is why he was allowed to progress so far from the bed, and why any executioner would expend 5 shots to a sleeping woman first.
This is the absolute heart of the matter, and why video reconstructions can progress the case best, your theory or Holly's theory. It is the simplicity of Holly's theory, along with the compliant position for Sheila being shot, ie self delivery rather than being shepherded into position, that ties the scene into a satisfactory whole, and means Taff wins hands down over Stan. Except he didn't.....
Only the killer knows in what position Nevill was when he sustained the gunshot wounds. Standing, kneeling or on the floor completely?
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Only the killer knows in what position Nevill was when he sustained the gunshot wounds. Standing, kneeling or on the floor completely?
1. The blood on the bed and trajectories to June show she was asleep.
2. It follows she was shot first.
I take it the above are accepted as common sense facts, from which we can proceed to figure/conjecture Nevill's words, actions, received shots, and progress to the coal scuttle.
Interestingly I have been studying closely Mugford's diary entries from the day and following, and I concede they require explanation consistent with Jeremy being uninvolved, and why that rabbit hole, in my opinion, gathered many victims.
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There is no way to prove trajectories Holly. As for when Nevill was shot, it could have happened any time from the moment he woke up until he reached the bedroom door. My own view is that he was shot after he got up otherwise there was every likelihood that a bullet would have been found in his pillow or on his side of the bed. The absence of his blood on his pillows or on his side of the bed would also appear to support this proposition.
John I've posted numerous links above where various professionals show how gunshot wound trajectory is used to establish the relative positions of shooter and victims. One link is entitled:
"Gunshot Wound Trajectory Analysis Using Forensic Animation To Establish Relative Positions Of Shooter And Victim".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28089298/
The above was a collaboration between Dr Judy Melinek, pathologist, and Craig Fries with qualifications in psychology, sense and perception, vision. Their credentials as follows:
http://www.pathologyexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Resume-Feb-2017-web.pdf
http://www.pathologyexpert.com/drjudymelinek/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/forensicexcellence/
http://www.precisionsim.com/
The fact we don't do these things in Little Britain doesn't mean countries like the US don't do them exceptionally well most probably due to the huge disparity in gun related crime.
JB's case is quite literally rooted in the dark ages and needs the application of 21st century forensic techniques to shed new light.
The trajectory of gsw's determines the position of the barrel. According to Dr Vanezis NB's facial wounds: lip and jaw, were circa 20 degrees below the horizontal. According to Malcolm Fletcher the distance was within inches of the skin.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
From the CoA doc:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
NB was 6'4". JB is 6'0". SC was 5'7.5".
In order for NB to sustain the gsw's to his lip and jaw whilst in the standing position (20 degrees below the horizontal) it would mean that JB or SC would need to hold the rifle in a very unnatural position or stand on something. The only other explanation is that NB was on the landing stairs and the perp elevated. The location of the landing stairs is supported by other evidence eg none of NB's blood was found in the bedroom but bloodstaining was found on the stairs, also the location of casings. As far as I can see this is the reason the likes of MikeG from the IA forum and Myster argue NB was rising from his bed as this might explain the trajectories but it doesn't explain the lack of blood and casings. It also doesn't explain how JB or SC were able to inflict NB's facial wounds within inches of his skin and then fire the shots into his shoulder and elbow to the rear of his body where the gsw trajectories were also downwards. Scipio flagged up the discrepancy but doesn't appear to have put forward any explanation:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg231850.html?PHPSESSID=92d0e341a4b6feeb5e7b16008a4d49f0#msg231850
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg231859.html?PHPSESSID=92d0e341a4b6feeb5e7b16008a4d49f0#msg231859
It is almost certain that scaled drawings of WHF and autopsy photos can prove SC or JB by taking the depth of stairs, height of NB, JB and SC, the trajectory/angle, wound tracks and distance of shots. There's literally a mountain of untapped data here.
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From the abstract
"Trajectory analysis of two gunshot wound pathways (only one of which was instantaneously incapacitating) was performed to assess the veracity of the officer’s statement and forensic animation was used to create a court exhibit."
The home office should commission such a reconstruction to reassure the common citizenry that Nevill Bamber was shot in the bedroom.
This project will prove something else entirely.
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drjudymelinek@pathologyexpert.com
is her email address Holly.
You could send her the trajectory info, she may wish to help pro bono in this travesty of justice.
Here she discusses the death of judge Scalia, famous for saying capital punishment is fine for an innocent man as long as due legal process is followed. Hi Jeremy.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/18/opinions/justice-scalia-no-autopsy-melinek/
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drjudymelinek@pathologyexpert.com
is her email address Holly.
You could send her the trajectory info, she may wish to help pro bono in this travesty of justice.
Blimey, Samson, you are such a massive twonk. The scenario of Nevill calling Bamber if Sheila had picked up the gun is RUBBISH! Seriously, think it through.
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Blimey, Samson, you are such a massive twonk. The scenario of Nevill calling Bamber if Sheila had picked up the gun is RUBBISH! Seriously, think it through.
What is a twonk Pugsy (Malone?)?
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John I've posted numerous links above where various professionals show how gunshot wound trajectory is used to establish the relative positions of shooter and victims. One link is entitled:
"Gunshot Wound Trajectory Analysis Using Forensic Animation To Establish Relative Positions Of Shooter And Victim".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28089298/
The above was a collaboration between Dr Judy Melinek, pathologist, and Craig Fries with qualifications in psychology, sense and perception, vision. Their credentials as follows:
http://www.pathologyexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Resume-Feb-2017-web.pdf
http://www.pathologyexpert.com/drjudymelinek/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/forensicexcellence/
http://www.precisionsim.com/
The fact we don't do these things in Little Britain doesn't mean countries like the US don't do them exceptionally well most probably due to the huge disparity in gun related crime.
JB's case is quite literally rooted in the dark ages and needs the application of 21st century forensic techniques to shed new light.
The trajectory of gsw's determines the position of the barrel. According to Dr Vanezis NB's facial wounds: lip and jaw, were circa 20 degrees below the horizontal. According to Malcolm Fletcher the distance was within inches of the skin.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
From the CoA doc:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
NB was 6'4". JB is 6'0". SC was 5'7.5".
In order for NB to sustain the gsw's to his lip and jaw whilst in the standing position (20 degrees below the horizontal) it would mean that JB or SC would need to hold the rifle in a very unnatural position or stand on something. The only other explanation is that NB was on the landing stairs and the perp elevated. The location of the landing stairs is supported by other evidence eg none of NB's blood was found in the bedroom but bloodstaining was found on the stairs, also the location of casings. As far as I can see this is the reason the likes of MikeG from the IA forum and Myster argue NB was rising from his bed as this might explain the trajectories but it doesn't explain the lack of blood and casings. It also doesn't explain how JB or SC were able to inflict NB's facial wounds within inches of his skin and then fire the shots into his shoulder and elbow to the rear of his body where the gsw trajectories were also downwards. Scipio flagged up the discrepancy but doesn't appear to have put forward any explanation:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg231850.html?PHPSESSID=92d0e341a4b6feeb5e7b16008a4d49f0#msg231850
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg231859.html?PHPSESSID=92d0e341a4b6feeb5e7b16008a4d49f0#msg231859
It is almost certain that scaled drawings of WHF and autopsy photos can prove SC or JB by taking the depth of stairs, height of NB, JB and SC, the trajectory/angle, wound tracks and distance of shots. There's literally a mountain of untapped data here.
To determine the trajectory of any shots one has to know the relative position of the participants. In a fast moving situation with the victim ducking and diving it is an impossible scenario. Trajectory analysis is only effective in situations like the Reeva Steenkamp case where the bullets went through a solid object. The height and position of the shooter was in that case determined. No such solid evidence is available in the Bamber case.
What is almost certain is that June was shot in bed before she got up and Nevill was shot several times as he approached the shooter. The inability of .22 rounds to kill meant the shooter used many more bullets than he had intended leaving him with no option but retreat downstairs to get more ammo. Neville followed him down the stairs and into the kitchen where they fought over the rifle before he succumbed to his wounds and was fatally injured as he slumped into a chair.
It is very possible the shooter poked Neville in the back using the rifle in order to check if he was alive or dead. This would have caused him to fall forward ending up with his head in the coal scuttle.
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To determine the trajectory of any shots one has to know the relative position of the participants. In a fast moving situation with the victim ducking and diving it is an impossible scenario. Trajectory analysis is only effective in situations like the Reeva Steenkamp case where the bullets went through a solid object. The height and position of the shooter was in that case determined. No such solid evidence is available in the Bamber case.
What is almost certain is that June was shot in bed before she got up and Nevill was shot several times as he approached the shooter. The inability of .22 rounds to kill meant the shooter used many more bullets than he had intended leaving him with no option but retreat downstairs to get more ammo. Neville followed him down the stairs and into the kitchen where they fought over the rifle before he succumbed to his wounds and was fatally injured as he slumped into a chair.
It is very possible the shooter poked Neville in the back using the rifle in order to check if he was alive or dead. This would have caused him to fall forward ending up with his head in the coal scuttle.
Why was June shot first?
The logical theory is she was alone in the bedroom.
Nevill took two shots to his rear, so only two shots were as he approached the shooter.
If Sheila didn't do this, a theory can be presented in a video reconstruction to show these four shots within the bedroom. On IA, MikeG suggested Nevill swivelled and took the arm shots before standing, then the face shots as he approached. Of course he would be in head butt mode to receive these descending.
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In my reconstruction, Sheila knows for certain that Nevill will come upstairs instantly he hears shots, so Sheila immediately swivels into position after the rapid 5 to June, and is ready from the bedroom doorway, as soon as he hoves into view, to shoot him in the head. Her survival requires this. At this stage she has no plan to kill the kids or herself, this happens when she considers her options.
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Here is a passage from CAL that explains all.
With detectives at Witham leading the investigation, Freddie Emami was driven to the police station there for an interview. He acknowledged that Sheila had had ‘a very quick and violent temper which she would lose over the simplest of things’ but had never seen her use physical violence towards anyone. He ended his statement: ‘Had it just been her [adoptive] mother who had been killed I could accept it, as she disliked her intensely.
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Why was June shot first?
The logical theory is she was alone in the bedroom.
Nevill took two shots to his rear, so only two shots were as he approached the shooter.
If Sheila didn't do this, a theory can be presented in a video reconstruction to show these four shots within the bedroom. On IA, MikeG suggested Nevill swivelled and took the arm shots before standing, then the face shots as he approached. Of course he would be in head butt mode to receive these descending.
June was shot as she lay in bed evidenced by the blood on her pillow and the bullet which was found embedded in it. One other possibility is that she was hit on the face by the rifle stock and knocked back into the bed before being shot. What is beyond doubt is that both she and Neville were attacked simultaneously.
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In my reconstruction, Sheila knows for certain that Nevill will come upstairs instantly he hears shots, so Sheila immediately swivels into position after the rapid 5 to June, and is ready from the bedroom doorway, as soon as he hoves into view, to shoot him in the head. Her survival requires this. At this stage she has no plan to kill the kids or herself, this happens when she considers her options.
Please refer to the forensic drawing of where the bullets and casings were found. Had a shooter been at the top of the stairs or on the landing and shot down the main staircase then the casings associated with Neville would have all been on the landing or the stairs.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8016.0;attach=8183;image)
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Please refer to the forensic drawing of where the bullets and casings were found. Had a shooter been at the top of the stairs or on the landing and shot down the main staircase then the casings associated with Neville would have all been on the landing or the stairs.
She stands in the same position to shoot both, the bedroom doorway.
She knows Nevill is coming and has the gun ready, aimed where he will appear first. He is leaning somewhat forward in the manner people climbing stairs rapidly do. She fires two very quick shots, success, she hits the target and Nevill turns. She emptys the cartridge with porrly aimed shots, she was trying to hit his back but gets the arm.
A quote from CAL
"There are countless instances where the police themselves have fired at somebody and if you get even a third of the shots hitting the target, that’s something. Yet this young woman was alleged to have fired twenty-five shots with the rifle, re-loaded it twice and hit her target every time."
An argument from incredulity, yet three of her victims were asleep, and I have just explained her markmanship with Nevill before he also became a sitting duck in the coal scuttle.
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She stands in the same position to shoot both, the bedroom doorway.
She knows Nevill is coming and has the gun ready, aimed where he will appear first. He is leaning somewhat forward in the manner people climbing stairs rapidly do. She fires two very quick shots, success, she hits the target and Nevill turns. She emptys the cartridge with porrly aimed shots, she was trying to hit his back but gets the arm.
A quote from CAL
"There are countless instances where the police themselves have fired at somebody and if you get even a third of the shots hitting the target, that’s something. Yet this young woman was alleged to have fired twenty-five shots with the rifle, re-loaded it twice and hit her target every time."
An argument from incredulity, yet three of her victims were asleep, and I have just explained her markmanship with Nevill before he also became a sitting duck in the coal scuttle.
That's some achievement for someone with hand/eye control problems, plus being over sedated.
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That's some achievement for someone with hand/eye control problems, plus being over sedated.
Personally I agree there was some luck she got two direct hits to Nevill's head as he came upstairs. Those two shots were vital and she scored. Yet she was prepared in a way it was impossible in a JB scene where both shooter and shot at are in full view of each other.
I would back Sheila to get those mouth shots when "LYING IN WAIT" as it were.
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Personally I agree there was some luck she got two direct hits to Nevill's head as he came upstairs. Those two shots were vital and she scored. Yet she was prepared in a way it was impossible in a JB scene where both shooter and shot at are in full view of each other.
I would back Sheila to get those mouth shots when "LYING IN WAIT" as it were.
So with that injury he managed to turn and go back down the stairs, in a straight line, to the kitchen, without leaving any blood evidence anywhere?
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She stands in the same position to shoot both, the bedroom doorway.
She knows Nevill is coming and has the gun ready, aimed where he will appear first. He is leaning somewhat forward in the manner people climbing stairs rapidly do. She fires two very quick shots, success, she hits the target and Nevill turns. She emptys the cartridge with porrly aimed shots, she was trying to hit his back but gets the arm.
A quote from CAL
"There are countless instances where the police themselves have fired at somebody and if you get even a third of the shots hitting the target, that’s something. Yet this young woman was alleged to have fired twenty-five shots with the rifle, re-loaded it twice and hit her target every time."
An argument from incredulity, yet three of her victims were asleep, and I have just explained her markmanship with Nevill before he also became a sitting duck in the coal scuttle.
Errrm... this is the more accurate quote by Malcolm Fletcher from CAL. You omitted the previous sentence on purpose...
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Errrm... this is the more accurate quote by Malcolm Fletcher from CAL. You omitted the previous sentence on purpose...
She starts with a loaded gun, shoots a sleeping woman 5 times. Easy.
She anticipates Nevill and is ready, once those four shots are delivered she is out of danger. There is no need for any experience, she has all the time in the world to figure the reloading, four bullets for Nevill, then she shags around while the kids sleep on.
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drjudymelinek@pathologyexpert.com
is her email address Holly.
You could send her the trajectory info, she may wish to help pro bono in this travesty of justice.
Here she discusses the death of judge Scalia, famous for saying capital punishment is fine for an innocent man as long as due legal process is followed. Hi Jeremy.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/18/opinions/justice-scalia-no-autopsy-melinek/
Thanks Samson but I'm pretty certain if she acted for every prisoner claiming to be a MoJ she would soon go bust! Funding has been and can be found for the right tests 8(0(*
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She starts with a loaded gun, shoots a sleeping woman 5 times. Easy.
She anticipates Nevill and is ready, once those four shots are delivered she is out of danger. There is no need for any experience, she has all the time in the world to figure the reloading, four bullets for Nevill, then she shags around while the kids sleep on.
Meanwhile Nevill is twiddling his thumbs on the phone waiting for the sleeping log to come back to life. It wouldn't happen, Samson. This experienced shooter leaving his wife and grandchildren for one second at the mercy of a doolally daughter... no chance, never in a thousand years.
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Meanwhile Nevill is twiddling his thumbs on the phone waiting for the sleeping log to come back to life. It wouldn't happen, Samson. This experienced shooter leaving his wife and grandchildren for one second at the mercy of a doolally daughter... no chance, never in a thousand years.
I thought we all agreed she would never shoot her family. All Nevill knew was she headed upstairs with the gun. The rest is Harry hindsight, she did use it. Nevill should have rushed after her and grabbed it, but he decided to trust she would not actually use it, and he called for negotiating assistance from his loving son.
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I thought we all agreed she would never shoot her family. All Nevill knew was she headed upstairs with the gun. The rest is Harry hindsight, she did use it. Nevill should have rushed after her and grabbed it, but he decided to trust she would not actually use it, and he called for negotiating assistance from his loving son.
And the first thing he'd holler at her before she even reached the bottom step - "Oh no you don't, gal!!!, that rifle's mine". To hell with any phone call, that was a Bamber hoax, just like his assurance when interviewed by the cops that he'd slept like a log... yet to his girlfriend he hadn't been to bed all night.
Bamber is an accomplished and convincing liar. I too have read Julie Mugford's diary many times and she comes across as far more believable than her ex, no matter what David1819 mumbles about Uncle Bobby's influence.
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To determine the trajectory of any shots one has to know the relative position of the participants. In a fast moving situation with the victim ducking and diving it is an impossible scenario. Trajectory analysis is only effective in situations like the Reeva Steenkamp case where the bullets went through a solid object. The height and position of the shooter was in that case determined. No such solid evidence is available in the Bamber case.
What is almost certain is that June was shot in bed before she got up and Nevill was shot several times as he approached the shooter. The inability of .22 rounds to kill meant the shooter used many more bullets than he had intended leaving him with no option but retreat downstairs to get more ammo. Neville followed him down the stairs and into the kitchen where they fought over the rifle before he succumbed to his wounds and was fatally injured as he slumped into a chair.
It is very possible the shooter poked Neville in the back using the rifle in order to check if he was alive or dead. This would have caused him to fall forward ending up with his head in the coal scuttle.
I posted commentary above from a pathologist involved in the Bain case @ 8 mins in:
"Allows you to reconstruct the direction that the barrel was pointing in. Because that is one of the things you can do in the reconstruction of gunshot wounds unless there's some intervening target. You line up the track of the bullet with the barrel of the gun."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gt4QmUG5k
Dr Vanezis made available the info re the track of the bullet to NB's facial gsw's and there was no intervening target:
"The approximate angle from the horizontal of these two tracks was slightly downwards, not more than about 20 degrees".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
Dot to dot springs to mind. One simply lines up the track of the bullet upon penetration with the barrel of the firearm. In the WHF case the barrel of the rifle was clearly pointing 20 degrees below the horizontal. This is significant given NB was taller than JB and SC.
Pathologists generally don't pad out reports with unneccesary waffle. The angle stated above means something. The fact JB's lawyers haven't picked up on it can only mean one thing and that is they should be struck off for incompetence/negligence. Sadly most are either deceased or retired. If legally possible I hope those still alive will face criminal charges along the lines of Ipswich optometrist Honey Rose.
"Ducking and diving" doesn't come into it. The muzzle velocity of the Eley subsonic hollow points bullets is 1040ft/s. Yep that means the bullets used in the tragedy at WHF exited the barrel (or silencer) at 1040 feet per second. Malcolm Fletcher estimated the distance of shots to NB's facial wounds as follows:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
To keep the maths simple lets assume the distance was 12"/1'. We are talking less than a 1000th of a second for the bullet to exit the barrel/silencer and strike NB's lip/jaw.
http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow
You say NB was shot several times as he approached the shooter:
"and Nevill was shot several times as he approached the shooter".
How do you account for the fact that NB sustained 2 gsw's to his rear: shoulder and elbow/chest?
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June was shot as she lay in bed evidenced by the blood on her pillow and the bullet which was found embedded in it. One other possibility is that she was hit on the face by the rifle stock and knocked back into the bed before being shot. What is beyond doubt is that both she and Neville were attacked simultaneously.
- Two bullets found in the pillow : 2 x DRH/35
- No pathological evidence June sustained any injuries other than from gsw's
- There's a distinct lack of evidence NB sustained any injuries in the bedroom eg none of his blood was found
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Please refer to the forensic drawing of where the bullets and casings were found. Had a shooter been at the top of the stairs or on the landing and shot down the main staircase then the casings associated with Neville would have all been on the landing or the stairs.
The rifle ejects casings upwards, forwards and to the right. The casings support SC standing at the entrance firing at NB on the landing stairs lip and jaw gsw's (DRH/3 and /4). NB then turns to retreat downstairs, SC follows and casings DRH/13 and /14 account for the shoulder and elbow/chest graze.
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That's some achievement for someone with hand/eye control problems, plus being over sedated.
If SC had "hand/eye problems" how do you account for David Boutflour's description "Not a hair out of place"? The soc photos show a high level of personal grooming by way of styled hair, shaped eyebrows, manicured and polished toe and fingernails and hair free legs.
We are told SC was in receipt of DSS payments and so desperate for cash she resorted to porn modelling. There's no evidence she paid for professional beauty services and/or friends obliged.
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So with that injury he managed to turn and go back down the stairs, in a straight line, to the kitchen, without leaving any blood evidence anywhere?
NB sustained his lip and jaw gsw's on the landing stairs. Two small spots of blood were found on the landing but when tested inconclusive.
AE's WS's and DCI Jones' notebook confirm bloodstaining was found on the stairs but for whatever reason(s) this wasn't tested. But since there's no evidence any of the other victims left the rooms they sustained gsw's in and were subsequently found dead in I think we can safely assume the blood originated from NB.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=174.0;attach=374;image
There's no evidence of blood leading out of the main bedroom as per attached soc photos. Why? Because NB WASN'T shot in the bedroom.
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She stands in the same position to shoot both, the bedroom doorway.
She knows Nevill is coming and has the gun ready, aimed where he will appear first. He is leaning somewhat forward in the manner people climbing stairs rapidly do. She fires two very quick shots, success, she hits the target and Nevill turns. She emptys the cartridge with porrly aimed shots, she was trying to hit his back but gets the arm.
A quote from CAL
"There are countless instances where the police themselves have fired at somebody and if you get even a third of the shots hitting the target, that’s something. Yet this young woman was alleged to have fired twenty-five shots with the rifle, re-loaded it twice and hit her target every time."
An argument from incredulity, yet three of her victims were asleep, and I have just explained her markmanship with Nevill before he also became a sitting duck in the coal scuttle.
The distance of shots makes accuracy irrelevant:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
63. Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
65. As regards the twins, four of the five injuries suffered by Daniel were caused when the gun was held within one foot of his head, the fifth was from over two feet away. The three wounds to Nicholas were contact or close proximity shots.
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I thought we all agreed she would never shoot her family. All Nevill knew was she headed upstairs with the gun. The rest is Harry hindsight, she did use it. Nevill should have rushed after her and grabbed it, but he decided to trust she would not actually use it, and he called for negotiating assistance from his loving son.
If Nevill had encountered Sheila having an episode and waving a rifle in a threatening manner he would have taken it off her straight away. The suggestion that after seeing her he casually rang Jeremy is bonkers imo. In any event, had she gone upstairs and fired the rifle Nevill would have heard it and reported it to Jeremy who in turn would have told police. Alternatively, he would have heard the shots for himself over the phone and told the police. In the event Jeremy never mentioned shots because none of this ever happened.
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I thought we all agreed she would never shoot her family. All Nevill knew was she headed upstairs with the gun. The rest is Harry hindsight, she did use it. Nevill should have rushed after her and grabbed it, but he decided to trust she would not actually use it, and he called for negotiating assistance from his loving son.
And I'd thought that Jeremy was Nevill's only son?
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I thought we all agreed she would never shoot her family. All Nevill knew was she headed upstairs with the gun. The rest is Harry hindsight, she did use it. Nevill should have rushed after her and grabbed it, but he decided to trust she would not actually use it, and he called for negotiating assistance from his loving son.
None of which would ever happen in the real world.
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None of which would ever happen in the real world.
I have asked a few women if they would agree to be shot lying down beside their mother who had just been murdered. No luck yet but the real world research continues.
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I have asked a few women if they would agree to be shot lying down beside their mother who had just been murdered. No luck yet but the real world research continues.
If Sheila had been asked, you'd VERY likely have had the same response. However, if you widen the question to form a threat, ie "If you don't do as I say I'll shoot the boys" the response would probably have been rather different. In the real world, mothers are keen to protect their children.
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I have asked a few women if they would agree to be shot lying down beside their mother who had just been murdered. No luck yet but the real world research continues.
Sheila was on Haloperidol. So unaware of what was happening., and unable to put up any resistance if she was.
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Sheila was on Haloperidol. So unaware of what was happening, and unable to put up any resistance if she was.
She was the perfect scapegoat.
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Sheila was on Haloperidol. So unaware of what was happening., and unable to put up any resistance if she was.
And Bamber was clinically skilled enough to expect compliance without touching her?
This problem only goes away for the Harry hindsighters who say Look it Worked.
That is a vastly different thing to expecting it to work. Remember, one out of line bullet and you get life without parole. Woops, now where am I going with this.....
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And Bamber was clinically skilled enough to expect compliance without touching her?
This problem only goes away for the Harry hindsighters who say Look it Worked.
That is a vastly different thing to expecting it to work. Remember, one out of line bullet and you get life without parole. Woops, now where am I going with this.....
He may have touched her. That would not have incriminated him.
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Sheila was on Haloperidol. So unaware of what was happening., and unable to put up any resistance if she was.
According to Dr Vanezis he was advised by FSS traces of Haloperidol were found:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698
The lab recorded the amounts in the blood as 15 nanograms per millilitre (and in the liver as 0.55 micrograms per gram).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
&%+((£
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According to Dr Vanezis he was advised by FSS traces of Haloperidol were found:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698
The lab recorded the amounts in the blood as 15 nanograms per millilitre (and in the liver as 0.55 micrograms per gram).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
&%+((£
That is interesting.
This means Sheila could not have committed the massacre and was easy for Bamber to control.
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That is interesting.
This means Sheila could not have committed the massacre and was easy for Bamber to control.
Does it? It implies to me that SC had very low levels of Haloperidol in her system amounting to a trace which was unlikely to have any significant antipsychotic benefit.
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Does it? It implies to me that SC had very low levels of Haloperidol in her system amounting to a trace which was unlikely to have any significant antipsychotic benefit.
How do you make that out? 15 nanograms per millimetre is a moderate level not a low level. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
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Does it? It implies to me that SC had very low levels of Haloperidol in her system amounting to a trace which was unlikely to have any significant antipsychotic benefit.
How do you know it was a low level ?
All the evidence on the night from PB, Bamber & indirectly from Sheila & June shows Sheila was drowsy, tired & weak.
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How do you make that out?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.msg395369#msg395369
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but the above sound very small amounts?
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How do you know it was a low level ?
All the evidence on the night from PB, Bamber & indirectly from Sheila & June shows Sheila was drowsy, tired & weak.
My interpretation of the expert evidence is that the amounts identified in SC's blood were low but I'm not a chemist/toxicologist so I might be wrong!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.msg395369#msg395369
I thought witnesses referred to SC as uncommunicative and lacking interest? Who said anything about drowsy, tired and weak other than Steve_uk?
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How do you make that out? 15 nanograms per millimetre is a moderate level not a low level. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
The article refers to plasma not blood.
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My interpretation of the expert evidence is that the amounts identified in SC's blood were low but I'm not a chemist/toxicologist so I might be wrong!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.msg395369#msg395369
I thought witnesses referred to SC as uncommunicative and lacking interest? Who said anything about drowsy, tired and weak other than Steve_uk?
She was on a moderate amount of Haloperidol. Not responding to alledged fostering conversations & just saying 'yes' & 'no' for 3 - 4 minutes on the phone suggests she was tired, drowsy & weak. And, according to June 'off to bed'.
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She was on a moderate amount of Haloperidol. Not responding to alledged fostering conversations & just saying 'yes' & 'no' for 3 - 4 minutes on the phone suggests she was tired, drowsy & weak. And, according to June 'off to bed'.
It is irrelevant what SC was on ie her dosage. What's important is determining the level of haloperidol in her biological system and understanding its effect.
General unresponsiveness could mean anything.
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The article refers to plasma not blood.
Read the title... in that instance it means the same thing. Measurements are made with the liquid part of the blood - plasma, about 55%, not the solid part - red cells, white cells and platelets, about 45%.
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My interpretation of the expert evidence is that the amounts identified in SC's blood were low but I'm not a chemist/toxicologist so I might be wrong!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.msg395369#msg395369
I thought witnesses referred to SC as uncommunicative and lacking interest? Who said anything about drowsy, tired and weak other than Steve_uk?
It's a moderate amount, certainly not low.
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It's a moderate amount, certainly not low.
If the article you posted is correct 15ng/1ml (SC's level of haloperidol as per toxicology tests) is very much on the low side of moderate 8)--))
Haloperidol detected in SC's blood as per toxicology tests - 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood.
Low dose = 2 - 13 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
Med dose = 13.1 - 24 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
High dose = 24.1 - 35 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
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Guilty.
1) Sealed his own fate after the event with insistence on Nevill's phone call on the night. Regardless of whether it took place or not (though he had no reason to lie about it if he's innocent) and combined with the forensic and physical evidence left at the scene. Here is the smoking gun in this case.
2)
3)
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If the article you posted is correct 15ng/1ml (SC's level of haloperidol as per toxicology tests) is very much on the low side of moderate 8)--))
Haloperidol detected in SC's blood as per toxicology tests - 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood.
Low dose = 2 - 13 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
Med dose = 13.1 - 24 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
High dose = 24.1 - 35 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
But still moderate and so she was still medicated. I know it's a stumbling block but one you can't deny.
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But still moderate and so she was still medicated. I know it's a stumbling block but one you can't deny.
A stumbling block for whom and in what way?