Should Scotland Yard set up a special unit to investigate ALL missing child cases?
It has now been revealed that Operation Grange, set up to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, is to get further funds in addition to the £11 million already spend on the enquiry.
Comments made publicly last week by the parents of several other missing children and adults have been critical of this new allocation of funds given their own loss.
Is it not time that Scotland Yard set up a special unit to look at ALL missing person cases equally?
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ben-needhams-tearful-mum-slams-12271252
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5932075/madeleine-mccann-maddie-cash-decision-dad-michael-whinham-unfair/
It could be argued that one parent should have no more rights over a child than the other.But what happens when the parents aren't talking to each other?
There are dozens of young children and teenagers missing from the UK and nobody is doing anything about it. It seems that a lone parent can abduction his or her child or children and disappear abroad without consequence. Is that really acceptable in modern day western society?
It is a tremendously complex issue.
It is also one to which when asked to name "all the missing children"not being looked for, no-one ever does because to one degree or another it is not the norm for British police not to pull out all the stops as far as missing children are concerned.
Just the fact that Scotland Yard and Policia Judiciaria reviews conducted independently of each other found numerous witnesses who had not been interviewed when Madeleine disappeared tends in my opinion to suggest that her case was not conducted as is the norm expected for missing children.
Neither is it the norm for British children to be removed from these shores to be taken to a war zone. I presume their distraught fathers have reported them missing therefore like Madeleine they are missing while on holiday abroad and will appear in the statistics as such. Therefore statistically speaking the only difference in their case and Madeleine's is that there are nine of them and we know who abducted them.
IMHO, the country must afford it.
Angelo, you may not be aware but this is a huge ask. do you have any idea how many children go missing but are NOT reported. Especially young girls whos parents are from Pakistan. There have been many reported to have gone missing by teachers and social workers. look at the size of Pakistan (there are other countries) what chance do the police-SY have of finding any of them?
Many British children die during the 'cutting' season in some ethnic cultures whos parents insist UK born children should adhere to another country's culture. The country really couldn't afford it.
IMHO, the country must afford it.
Whatever the skin colour and ethnicity a child is a child, unable to look after itself and MUST be protected.
I disagree, these third world practises belong in the third world.I am pleased to agree with you on the third world practices, Angelo.
I am pleased to agree with you on the third world practices, Angelo.
It still leaves the children at risk though .... and as children and British Citizens, we Brits must be humane and do our best to help them and to find out what has happened to them. We must try to protect them and bring any Justice possible to them.
We dont just wipe our hands of them, because of their ethnicity and what their parents have done,
AIMHO
It's children like Maddie and Ben I'm primarily concerned about and not Muslims who want to engage in some pathetic ethnic war back home in Syria.
At one time or another all of us were the children and descendants of immigrants either conquerors, the conquered or economic immigrants desperate to make a better life for themselves and their families. It sure ain't the climate that attracted anyone to these shores imo!
We're still doing it.
Aussies are passing Brits as they pass each other to new lives.
I doubt if Robbity's ancestors are the original inhabitants of NZ, who themselves were I believe immigrants; and SIL is busy carving out a new life for self and family in the sun (how jealous am I!!)
Immigrants bring a lot of bonuses with them ... the three women mentioned in my post are not typical ... and the children who could possibly have been killed as a result of their actions had the potential to make great contributions to our society as a whole.
However that was not the point of my post. These children were given no choice in the matter of whether or not they were to be taken to try to live in a war zone.
They were taken by one parent without the knowledge of the other which in my opinion makes them abducted, missing children ... but how in conscience could we as a society launch an investigation into their disappearance with the hope of recovery?
I think it is puerile to make comparisons with the cases of the disappeared as each case is essentially different; one person might be found after an absence of hours another might take days or years.
Surely the criteria must be whether or not a case can be pursued as a result of the viable evidence available? In Madeleine's case we are told there is an active line of inquiry being pursued.
I don't know how the police of this country would deal with a case of those British children abducted to a foreign jurisdiction ~ five year-old Muhammad Haseeb, Maryam Siddiqui, seven, Ismaeel Iqbal, three, Mariya Iqbal, five, Zaynab Iqbal, eight, Ibrahim Iqbal, 14, Junaid Ahmed Iqbal, 15, Haafiyah Binte Zubair, eight, and five-year-old Nurah Binte Zubair ~ but I know how I believe they should deal with the case of a missing British child abducted from a foreign jurisdiction which is also carrying out an investigation into her disappearance.
The first part of which is not trying to make a comparison between apples and pears.
I have no problem with helping to look for children who have been abducted but I draw the line with archaic religious practises perpetrated by immigrants, many of whom should not be in this country to begin with.
The money spent on the McCann case is certainly not proportionate when one considers all the other 'British' children who have gone missing. Little wonder that Ben Needham's mother felt it necessary to go on live daytime TV to highlight the issue. I would feel exactly the same as her had my child disappeared under similar circumstances.
Are you suggesting that the Greek police shouldn't have investigated Ben's disappearanch because he wasn't Greek?
The Needhams were in Greece legally.
The Needhams were in Greece legally.
The British police have no interest in Muslim children taken out of the UK by their parents in order to pursue some Syrian adventure. In my opinion they should never be allowed back just like those two ISIS terrorists who were part of the Beatles gang.
So any Muslims here legally have the right to police protection
It's children like Maddie and Ben I'm primarily concerned about and not Muslims who want to engage in some pathetic ethnic war back home in Syria.
So any Muslims here legally have the right to police protection
Angelo, you may not be aware but this is a huge ask. do you have any idea how many children go missing but are NOT reported. Especially young girls whos parents are from Pakistan. There have been many reported to have gone missing by teachers and social workers. look at the size of Pakistan (there are other countries) what chance do the police-SY have of finding any of them?
Many British children die during the 'cutting' season in some ethnic cultures whos parents insist UK born children should adhere to another country's culture. The country really couldn't afford it.
Not only from Pakistan. Kids from all over, often poor countries, end up in the UK or another relatively rich country for one reason or another. Sometimes as child slaves, and sometimes for rich families.
Teenagers (and sometimes even children) get trafficked for the sex trade, and can disappear.
I think our hard pressed police forces have more than enough to do without worrying about ethnic minorities who in many cases despise our way of life here in the UK.I can't believe what I'm reading here.
I can't believe what I'm reading here.
I think our hard pressed police forces have more than enough to do without worrying about ethnic minorities who in many cases despise our way of life here in the UK.
A lot of countries aren't too fond of Brits either. If one of your loved ones went missing abroad (and I hope this will never happen), you'd find it legitimate for the police of that country to refuse to investigate, would you?
Oh I can!
"The law only applies to those I like"
"Supporters are more empathic than sceptics"
and so on.
See my signature strip.
Depends very much on the country.
As for the subject of this thread I think SY has shown a distinct lack of empathy for the parents of other British missing children by spending so much on a single case and especially so when the parents were themselves suspects at one time.
Depends very much on the country.
As for the subject of this thread I think SY has shown a distinct lack of empathy for the parents of other British missing children by spending so much on a single case and especially so when the parents were themselves suspects at one time.
But British-born children from other origins don't matter, according to you, so how many does that boil down to?
Why the SY (Met) specifically? Is there any reason why they would be involved in every missing child case?
Oh I can!What? The law should apply to all equally and isn't that precisely why Angelo's p.o.v. is so repellent?
"The law only applies to those I like"
"Supporters are more empathic than sceptics"
and so on.
See my signature strip.
You could ask why the Met is involved in the McCann case. Is Leicestershire Police so inept that they couldn't have undertaken the enquiry?
What? The law should apply to all equally and isn't that precisely why Angelo's p.o.v. is so repellent?
You only need to look at the pages and pages of missing children on the missing persons website to see that most are from a minority ethnic background who spurn our British values.
Angelo, I think your remarks are getting way out of hand....
As you're a senior mod and post editor I guess there's not much I can say, except maybe get some sleep and think about what you've been sayinng all day.
Have you read the Operation Task Strategic Debrief?
Is the truth so hard to swallow Carana? Which bit don't you agree with? Is it the fact that most children currently missing in the UK are from ethnic minority backgrounds or is it the fact that many within those minority's have little or no respect for our British values?
Which missing children's site are you referring to?
What are British values? And which do you assume that anyone who doesn't look like you doesn't respect?
What does it matter what their ethnicity is? They are missing. Why?
You could ask why the Met is involved in the McCann case. Is Leicestershire Police so inept that they couldn't have undertaken the enquiry?Have you thought that possibly they, Leicestershire Police, got so close to the Portimao PJ that it was considered better to make a clean sweep and involove another force?
Have you thought that possibly they, Leicestershire Police, got so close to the Portimao PJ that it was considered better to make a clean sweep and involove another force?
Why the Met ? Was it probably because this case was considered rather sensitive and The Met had more experience of cases in other countries?
Also, possibly because they are considered the best investagative force in the UK .... and this case had become really big thanks to rumours and innuendoes and disinformation. It needed the best to unravel it.
Looks like they have succeeded.
Hope they can find sufficient proof to convict a certain party and also hopefully find Madeleine
The only official one, Missing People. Are you seriously asking what British values are? I think most indigenous British people would find FGM, child slavery, forced marriages and other third world practises quite offensive, I certainly do!!Since when have 14 or 15 year olds been classed as young adults?
An observation from the Missing People website is that many of these 'children' are actually 14/15 years of age. Reading between the lines it would seem that they disappear voluntarily, undoubtedly wanting to discover their ethnic roots. I agree that chasing these young adults would be a waste of resources.
I wouldn't consider them the best investigative force in the UK. Pound for pound they are probably the least efficient. The government for whatever reason chose to fund this case out of all proportion to other missing children cases and that is what is making the parents of other missing children so angry.
As for success, the Met have failed abysmally to make any progress so you will be sorely disappointed.
Shall we wait and see?
That ship has sailed Sadie. Had the Met investigated the known crimes we might have seen some arrests. The sad truth though confirmed by one of their own very senior officers is that investigators are being restricted in what and who they can investigate.Who is Colin Sutton to interfere anyway ? He was byepassed for The Madeleine Case and it all sounds like sour grapes to me.
That ship has sailed Sadie. Had the Met investigated the known crimes we might have seen some arrests. The sad truth though confirmed by one of their own very senior officers is that investigators are being restricted in what and who they can investigate.
What? The law should apply to all equally and isn't that precisely why Angelo's p.o.v. is so repellent?
What do you mean by "known crimes"?
Is the senior officer you're referring to a former one, lately on the media pundit circuit, who was never involved in the investigation and who appears to know less about the facts of this case than most of us here?
Who is Colin Sutton to interfere anyway ? He was byepassed for The Madeleine Case and it all sounds like sour grapes to me.
Probably as much right as anyone who has sent in stuff to either forces.None of his stuff is positive, nor helpful to the investigation in any way.
None of his stuff is positive, nor helpful to the investigation in any way.
All he spews out is negative stuff, but then he is on a well known pro Amaral forum, isn't he ?
I haven't seen any evidence of missing children not being investigated.....in fact I think it would be, fair to say that the investigation into Ben's disappearance was given more money because of the mccanns. It seems that there is, still a, lead to investigate in the McCann case and it is, sensible that this is finalized. As I understand there, simply are no leads in Ben's case and neither in the other case raised.
The flip side to that is,how can new leads be found if no search's are undertaken,the Kate Bushell one I posted about before came up with 10 new leads after 20 yrs,who knows if the 11th wouldn't have cracked it,but now its on the back burner where will it come from.If reports are to believed the McCann case has had one final lead for some time why should that continue above others? I'm sure each is judged on its merits but these aren't clear.
Investigations are only interested in good information, not whether it is positive or negative.Oh, when has Sutton provided any factual info?
It's being investigated because it has not been resolved and still may be, resolved... The cost surely has been so high because the investigation is not re a crime in the uk
There is no way to justify £10 million plus being spent on the Maddie case while other children who disappear abroad are even looked for.
It's being investigated because it has not been resolved and still may be, resolved...
I was just quoting from previous supporters rants.Another baffling post. Nevertheless I'm glad you have strong beliefs that you feel compelled to share with us.
Multi faceted it would seem, to put it politely.
I find Angelo's views no more repugnant than some of the aforementioned supporters posted views.
Please read my sig strip I happen to believe in it regardless of what you and your likers may think.
Another baffling post. Nevertheless I'm glad you have strong beliefs that you feel compelled to share with us.Very well put, Vertigo 8((()*/
But British-born children from other origins don't matter, according to you, so how many does that boil down to?
Another baffling post. Nevertheless I'm glad you have strong beliefs that you feel compelled to share with us.
Yes, we could all sit back and say well you know we know all this, nothing we can do about it, but stop talking about it I am offended on behalf of these parents.What offends you, out of interest? I assume not blatant racism for one.
What offends you, out of interest? I assume not blatant racism for one.
What is the point of this post if not to be offensive?Are you offended by it? If so why?
Racism? please site the racism content.If you are offended by all these terrible things happening to these poor children then are you not offended by the notion that because their parents don't share our western values that they are therefore not worth looking for if they go missing, something which has been mooted on this thread?
I am offend by seeing children having their limbs blown apart, girls who have their sexual organs cut causing horrific injury.pain and death from bleeding, I am offended by girls aged 5 and over being married to old men 'uncles' for money. I am offended by very young girls being habitually raped for being a'witch', having eyes gouged out,whipped and beaten for being a witch. Young boys being raped and tortured as a punishment for his sister not marrying a named 'uncle'. Young girls being murdered for not marrying her parents choice
AND I am offended that my concern for these things happening and talking about it is that myself and others being named and shamed as a racists. by people who pretend to care.
I am happy to be called a rascist- you don't evenm know what it means! Muslim- christian is not a race !
If you are offended by all these terrible things happening to these poor children then are you not offended by the notion that because their parents don't share our western values that they are therefore not worth looking for if they go missing, something which has been mooted on this thread?
Oh stop with the re writing what I said. Racism cite still waiting on that one.It was suggested that British police resources should not be spent on "undeserving" ethnic minorities who apparently make up the bulk of missing children cases. Please read back. I think if this was a view espoused by Theresa May for example that she would probably get a fair bit of flak and be forced to resign.
These things are happening on UK soil as well.
The point I am making is IF parents remove their children who is going to these countries to investigate what happened? would you send your son/daughter to Syria/or Pakistan to look for a child removed by her father/mother? who will pay for this investigation ...
We should NOT have separate cultures all doing their own thing,trying to get their cultural aspects to be accepted as 'normal'. Perhaps it should be pointed out how most of these people got residency?
It was suggested that British police resources should not be spent on "undeserving" ethnic minorities who apparently make up the bulk of missing children cases. Please read back. I think if this was a view espoused by Theresa May for example that she would probably get a fair bit of flak and be forced to resign. Luckily Angelo is just an anonymous mod on the Justice Forum (inappropriately enough!)
Oh I think it is very clear that is indeed the unwritten rule. The Uk police do not go to Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and vast parts of Africa to look for missing children who have been removed by their parents. There is nothing rascist about that at all. you can't have it both ways you know.
It is only recently when the PC brigade were shown out for the idiots they are, that UK police can investigate and remove children who are abused for 'cultural' reasons. Regardless of where this crime was committed.
Just so you are- aware many doctors and nurses in this country who were highlighting this FGM abuse of British children for years were called rascist! by people like you.
first thing is...do these children have joint nationality...that is a very important point legally....I havent heard any doctors being called racist for highlighting FGM...waht a ridiculous claim
Should doctors and nursed have emailed you? phoned you? written perhaps.
they could have told me ......did they tell you
Oh I think it is very clear that is indeed the unwritten rule. The Uk police do not go to Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and vast parts of Africa to look for missing children who have been removed by their parents. There is nothing rascist about that at all. you can't have it both ways you know.Not by me they weren't.
It is only recently when the PC brigade were shown out for the idiots they are, that UK police can investigate and remove children who are abused for 'cultural' reasons. Regardless of where this crime was committed.
Just so you are- aware many doctors and nurses in this country who were highlighting this FGM abuse of British children for years were called rascist! by people like you.
Are you offended by it? If so why?
Scarcely, old stick!because, me ol' mucker, you seemed to be under the misapprehension that the point of my post was to be offensive. So relieved to know that despite this you were not at all offended.
Why do you think I should/would be ?
so they didnt speak up so they wernt called racist...it was just you who spoke up...an ubsubstantaited claim..
so now you want to talk about grooming...are you sure you are on the right forum...you will probably take this as being silenceded..its not. the mighty well respected social workers have a lot to answer for re grooming but this is not the palce to discuss it
If a British born child is abducted by a parent (of Asian or African descent), taken abroad to be abused (fgm for example) then should the UK authorities turn a blind eye to this?
They have been. This is now being addressed and discussed openly within communities to educate and discuss the law regarding this 'cultural' cruelty. Thank goodness. It was ignored and shunned due to this being an ethnic community thing and not to get involved. with the influx of 'refugees' and immigrants from these cultures it will and is already overwhelming our stretched resources.Thank goodness for that change.
However, The British authorities have no remit to go into these countries and make arrests. We just don't have the funding or the resources. and that has nothing to do with Islamophobia as it happens in Christian areas of Africa and the middle east.
At one time no one would talk about the sadistic catholic priest/nuns abuse of children over the centuries...my how things have changed.
They have been. This is now being addressed and discussed openly within communities to educate and discuss the law regarding this 'cultural' cruelty. Thank goodness. It was ignored and shunned due to this being an ethnic community thing and not to get involved. with the influx of 'refugees' and immigrants from these cultures it will and is already overwhelming our stretched resources.So in your opinion what criteria should exist before deciding to spend millions of pounds on an investigation into the disappearance or abduction of a missing child?
However, The British authorities have no remit to go into these countries and make arrests. We just don't have the funding or the resources. and that has nothing to do with Islamophobia as it happens in Christian areas of Africa and the middle east.
At one time no one would talk about the sadistic catholic priest/nuns abuse of children over the centuries...my how things have changed.
So in your opinion what criteria should exist before deciding to spend millions of pounds on an investigation into the disappearance or abduction of a missing child?Without a doubt the issues raised in this thread are truly important issues. I would think funding is parent generated, in that the more political an issue becomes the more funding the family will get IMO.
First criteria should be that the event took place within the UK. IMOBut even it did and the stolen child ends up in Pakistan or Syria it is unlikely MPS is going to send a team there in hot pursuit.
Without a doubt the issues raised in this thread are truly important issues. I would think funding is parent generated, in that the more political an issue becomes the more funding the family will get IMO.
But even it did and the stolen child ends up in Pakistan or Syria it is unlikely MPS is going to send a team there in hot pursuit.
First criteria should be that the event took place within the UK. IMOSo you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?
So you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?
The a great many British Born children of ethnic Minorities are not allowed to have freedoms and human rights afforded to the children of indigenous population. They are forced to accept/conform to their parents cultural leaning. A British born child who is taken abroad to be married at 8 or over for money/goods /property ( this is a cultural thing) then this is a crime. however, if a teacher reports a child missing- the parents claim they do not understandi engerlishy. AND are happy to quote the human rights act to practice their religion and the many versions of it. The child has gone to live with 'family'...
PC brigade have a lot of murder ,torture and suffering on their hands. All because of their stupid notion of one global community. we are ll equal nonsense. We can all live together in harmony and be tolerant of other peoples religion.
This is not just a version of muslim teaching- African Christians are also guilty of committing the most horrific torture on girls who they deem as witches! It is not religion it is hidden behind religion it is cultural AND we are NOT all equal!
So, let us hear from those deeply offended by the truth as to how they would source and pay for the searches of over 6 thousand suspected 'missing' children who have been removed and taken to Iraq, Syria (to join isis), Pakistan/India and Africa. these are VAST continents, where does one little SY team start one has to ask and oh yeah who pays?
I couldn't have put it better myself. One only needs to look at the missing people website to see how many young people from immigrant families have disappeared, probably gone back to their ethnic roots.
In reality there are very few indigenous British children who have disappeared so imo there should be a special police unit charged with pursuing those cases.
If a British born child is abducted by a parent (of Asian or African descent), taken abroad to be abused (fgm for example) then should the UK authorities turn a blind eye to this?
Are you saying there should be a special unit that only deals with the disappearance of indigenous British children
I couldn't have put it better myself. One only needs to look at the missing people website to see how many young people from immigrant families have disappeared, probably gone back to their ethnic roots.
In reality there are very few indigenous British children who have disappeared so imo there should be a special police unit charged with pursuing those cases.
So you think there should be a special police force that deals only with missing indigenous brithish children... That would be discrimination on racial grounds... Is that what you, are, proposing
I couldn't have put it better myself. One only needs to look at the missing people website to see how many young people from immigrant families have disappeared, probably gone back to their ethnic roots.Do you agree that in all cases, the wherabouts of missing children is likely to be unknown for certain until their disappearance is investigated? Or is it your belief that as soon as it is established that the British child that is missing has Asian or African roots that that is where the investigation should end, regardless of whether ir not they have been taken out of the country?
In reality there are very few indigenous British children who have disappeared so imo there should be a special police unit charged with pursuing those cases.
Jurisdiction ends at the border. After that it's not a police matter.If a child is reported missing it is a police matter to investigate the disappearance, but it's being mooted here that it shouldn't be (if I understand Angelo correctly) if it turns out the child is from an Asian or African background - that sounds pretty discriminatory to me.
If a child is reported missing it is a police matter to investigate the disappearance, but it's being mooted here that it shouldn't be (if I understand Angelo correctly) if it turns out the child is from an Asian or African background - that sounds pretty discriminatory to me.
So what? In what way does that affect you?So you think discrimination based on race or religion is acceptable... Seems you do
So what? In what way does that affect you?One could say the same about pretty much every post you have made on this forum. But actually, discrimination on the basis of ethnic origin does affect me inasmuch as I don't believe it is healthy to live in a society which racially discriminates and I don' support such sentiments, and will choose to speak up against them when I see them. You may not care, but some people do, does that affect you?
One could say the same about pretty much every post you have made on this forum. But actually, discrimination on the basis of ethnic origin does affect me inasmuch as I don't believe it is healthy to live in a society which racially discriminates and I don' support such sentiments, and will choose to speak up against them when I see them. You may not care, but some people do, does that affect you?
This is an internet forum, not real life.It's an internet forum in real life.
So you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?
Can I remind you that Rowley claimed that the McCann’s innocence had been dealt with by the original investigation so if the investigation was flawed then the McCann’s innocence is also in doubt.
Can I remind you that Rowley claimed that the McCann’s innocence had been dealt with by the original investigation so if the investigation was flawed then the McCann’s innocence is also in doubt.I don't follow your logic, sorry, furthermore your post is quite off topic.
Can I remind you that Rowley claimed that the McCann’s innocence had been dealt with by the original investigation so if the investigation was flawed then the McCann’s innocence is also in doubt.So was it flawed?
This is an internet forum, not real life.Would the "special unit to investigate ALL missing child cases" be a part of real life?
Would the "special unit to investigate ALL missing child cases" be a part of real life?
It would, if it existed, but discussing it on here certainly isn't.I disagree, this aspect of my life is as real as any other part of it.
It would, if it existed, but discussing it on here certainly isn't.You don't consider you regular postings on this forum to be a part of your real life, nor the topics for discussion part of "real life"? Is this all a fantasy then? Am I simply a figment of your imagination?
You don't consider you regular postings on this forum to be a part of your real life, nor the topics for discussion part of "real life"? Is this all a fantasy then? Am I simply a figment of your imagination?
No, it's just part of my cyber life. Other than occupying a bit of my time, it doesn't impinge on my real life at all.Are you views different in "real life" to the ones you express on here?
I keep the two quite separate.
Are you views different in "real life" to the ones you express on here?
Of course not. I just don't discuss this or other similar matters with people as they are generally uninterested.Then people like us on this forum obviously fulfil a need you have to discuss certain matters on a regular basis. most of us are genuine and believe in what we write, our views are real, and part of our real lives, therefore they matter to us.
I don't follow your logic, sorry, furthermore your post is quite off topic.
Oh I think you do.I follow your logic but it's flawed imo
I follow your logic but it's flawed imo
Oh I think you do.Why don't you start a new thread and explain it to me, because I can assure you I don't.
Why don't you start a new thread and explain it to me, because I can assure you I don't.
Davel seems to follow my point. Perhaps he’ll explain it to you if you ask him nicely.Discuss it with him then, this thread is about whether or not the Met should investigate ALL missing children cases. What do you think?
Davel seems to follow my point. Perhaps he’ll explain it to you if you ask him nicely.
I can see where your logic is wrong and VS cannot see where it's right... How's that
You can’t say that the investigation was flawed yet believe that it’s conclusion was correct. It simply won’t do.I think you can. If you look at the aspect that received the greatest amount of effort. Like it you could say it was a flawed investigation but the amount of work on the parents showed they were not involved.
Not one solitary fact showed that the McCanns couldn’t be involved, simply that it hadn’t been proved that they were.What about all missing children though, should the Met be tasked with investigating them all, or only the British indigenous ones?
What about all missing children though, should the Met be tasked with investigating them all, or only the British indigenous ones?
It was you who sent it off topic with this post
‘So you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?’
Please try to resist doing so in future.
It was you who sent it off topic with this postSeems pretty much on topic to me.
‘So you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?’
Please try to resist doing so in future.
It was you who sent it off topic with this postThat post was on topic - the topic is should SY set up a special unit to investigate ALL missing children. Another poster suggested that this should be limited to missing cases in the UK only, hence my question.
‘So you are against taxpayers money being spent on the search for either Madeleine McCann or Ben Needham then, even if there is clear evidence that initial investigations were flawed and even if there is a chance that one or both children may still be alive?’
Please try to resist doing so in future.
That post was on topic - the topic is should SY set up a special unit to investigate ALL missing children. Another poster suggested that this should be limited to missing cases in the UK only, hence my question.
ETA: you're clearly not interested in this topic and would prefer to discuss your own agenda, so why not start a new thread about it?
Back to the topic please? Is it not time that Scotland Yard set up a special unit to look at ALL missing person cases equally?
Define missing child? Define missing person? If it appears they have disappeared to enter a war zone - case closed. If they have gone back to home countries for family or religious reasons - case closed. If the have been abducted by a biological parent - case closed. Some would be cleared up, and the funds not used on them could go toward the more difficult to close cases e.g The McCann case.
Back to the topic please? Is it not time that Scotland Yard set up a special unit to look at ALL missing person cases equally?
Define missing child? Define missing person? If it appears they have disappeared to enter a war zone - case closed. If they have gone back to home countries for family or religious reasons - case closed. If the have been abducted by a biological parent - case closed. Some would be cleared up, and the funds not used on them could go toward the more difficult to close cases e.g The McCann case.
Back to the topic please? Is it not time that Scotland Yard set up a special unit to look at ALL missing person cases equally?
Define missing child? Define missing person? If it appears they have disappeared to enter a war zone - case closed. If they have gone back to home countries for family or religious reasons - case closed. If the have been abducted by a biological parent - case closed. Some would be cleared up, and the funds not used on them could go toward the more difficult to close cases e.g The McCann case.
Then we’ll have to agree to differ. I see your post as a thinly veiled attempt to give the PJ yet another kicking.....but that maybe just me.I think everyone (including the PJ) realise that the initial investigation was flawed, no need to take it personally.
I think everyone (including the PJ) realise that the initial investigation was flawed, no need to take it personally.
More or less what I said yesterday before the racist card was pulled out. There are a number of children listed in the forum's missing children page who seem to have been forgotten completely by the investigating authorities.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=82.0
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7789.0
Of course you have a cite for the PJ realising that the initial investigation was flawed ?No, not on me right now , but Amaral for one has admitted there were failings, and he was in the PJ wasn't he? I'm sure someone with more time than I have right now will be able to find the link if necessary. If not, I will happily oblige this evening.
No, not on me right now , but Amaral for one has admitted there were failings, and he was in the PJ wasn't he? I'm sure someone with more time than I have right now will be able to find the link if necessary. If not, I will happily oblige this evening.The first criticism of the the McCann case came from Kate when she asked John Hill when are the police arriving.
With the high proportion of missing children due in some way to the actions of the parents and people known to the parents, the home of the missing child needs to be made forensically secure.
I can see the problem here being the people who are needed to report the missing kids, if they are involved, are then going to spend a bit more effort tidying up, and delay reporting the child missing, but I think it is still the best way. There seems to have a whole series of issues though for it would mean displacing a family every time a child or person went missing. Impound all the family vehicles too.
Of course you have a cite for the PJ realising that the initial investigation was flawed ?Here you go: Amaral's 'fessing up to the flawed investigation "we were too honest", "we were too nice", "we were too naive", etc etc. Well it's one set of reasons anyway....
I thought they did have a special unit set up to investigate missing children? I know they say that no child is ever forgotten, and that has been proven with some being solved that have been years old. The police say if there is any new credible evidence, the case of any child will be reopened and the evidence will be investigated. That is what happened in Madeleine's case.
Here you go: Amaral's 'fessing up to the flawed investigation "we were too honest", "we were too nice", "we were too naive", etc etc. Well it's one set of reasons anyway....
http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-milestone-amaral-agrees-%E2%80%9Csome-things-we-did-weren%E2%80%99t-right%E2%80%9D
Every investigation by that standard must be flawed as I’m sure lapses of judgement like those detailed above happen in every investigation.So, you concede the investigation (as I said) was flawed, we can now move back on topic.
Of course the ‘flaws’ mentioned by Amaral surely worked for rather than against the McCanns ? Who knows what would have happened if the PJ hadn’t been as ‘ naive, honest or nice’ ?
With the high proportion of missing children due in some way to the actions of the parents and people known to the parents, the home of the missing child needs to be made forensically secure.Would the prospect of a major investigation involving the parents make the parents reluctant to report a missing child case?
I can see the problem here being the people who are needed to report the missing kids, if they are involved, are then going to spend a bit more effort tidying up, and delay reporting the child missing, but I think it is still the best way. There seems to have a whole series of issues though for it would mean displacing a family every time a child or person went missing. Impound all the family vehicles too.
So, you concede the investigation (as I said) was flawed, we can now move back on topic.
And you must concede then that by the standards set in your post every investigation is flawed in some way ?
If any initial investigation into a UK missing persons case abroad was flawed and the net result was the case was not solved, and subsequently new evidence emerges which may solve the case, should taxpayers money be spent on a re-investigation of that case and if so, how much and for how long?
Of course you have a cite for the PJ realising that the initial investigation was flawed ?
I thought they did have a special unit set up to investigate missing children? I know they say that no child is ever forgotten, and that has been proven with some being solved that have been years old. The police say if there is any new credible evidence, the case of any child will be reopened and the evidence will be investigated. That is what happened in Madeleine's case.
From the prosecutor's legal summary:
The investigators are well aware of the fact that their work is not exempt of imperfection; they have worked with an enormous error margin, and what they have achieved is very little in terms of conclusive results, especially concerning the fate of the unfortunate child. Nevertheless, they always knew that action was necessary and in reality they acted intensively and with commitment, even at the risk of erring.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Admitting nonetheless that the Portuguese police made some key mistakes at the outset, Amaral took Cofina group journalists round the former Ocean Club complex, explaining minutely why statements and accounts given by “the British group” of friends accompanying the McCanns did not, in his opinion, stack up.
(...)
Mistakes? They may not be the sort people were expecting.
“I should not have allowed us to be put under so much pressure”, Amaral told Correio da Manhã’s Sunday magazine, explaining that when the McCann family finally left Praia da Luz in September 2007, the British police who had come over to assist the Portuguese investigation also left - leaving the “sensation that they were only here to protect the couple”.
“We were naive and too diplomatic”, he added. The desire to please the British led investigators to send trace evidence for testing to a UK-based laboratory “so that we would not be accused of manipulation in the final result”.
http://portugalresident.com/amaral-breaks-his-silence
From the prosecutor's legal summary:
The investigators are well aware of the fact that their work is not exempt of imperfection; they have worked with an enormous error margin, and what they have achieved is very little in terms of conclusive results, especially concerning the fate of the unfortunate child. Nevertheless, they always knew that action was necessary and in reality they acted intensively and with commitment, even at the risk of erring.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Admitting nonetheless that the Portuguese police made some key mistakes at the outset, Amaral took Cofina group journalists round the former Ocean Club complex, explaining minutely why statements and accounts given by “the British group” of friends accompanying the McCanns did not, in his opinion, stack up.
(...)
Mistakes? They may not be the sort people were expecting.
“I should not have allowed us to be put under so much pressure”, Amaral told Correio da Manhã’s Sunday magazine, explaining that when the McCann family finally left Praia da Luz in September 2007, the British police who had come over to assist the Portuguese investigation also left - leaving the “sensation that they were only here to protect the couple”.
“We were naive and too diplomatic”, he added. The desire to please the British led investigators to send trace evidence for testing to a UK-based laboratory “so that we would not be accused of manipulation in the final result”.
http://portugalresident.com/amaral-breaks-his-silence
Yet again if the investigation was flawed so must its conclusions be ie that the McCann’s non- involvement had been established. You can’t have it both ways.
Its well documented that the MET can't or won't confirm if Madeleine is alive or dead,that is hardly new evidence after nigh on 7 yrs.Given thats the case, how long do you belive they should continue?In the Needham case the SYP gave their professional belief that Ben was killed in an accident,thus ending the investigation.I believe the Met should continue until they solve the case or decide there is no further point continuing, not consider the wishes and feelings of the Great British Public, who have no idea what may or may not have been uncovered in the course of the re-investigation.
Yet again if the investigation was flawed so must its conclusions be ie that the McCann’s non- involvement had been established. You can’t have it both ways.This is an overly simplisitc "black and white" conlusion, in my opinion.
This is an overly simplisitc "black and white" conlusion, in my opinion.
You never know, Faith. Maybe the final lead is to identify Amaral's missing fridge after all... 8(0(*They never did find the source of the printer. OK once they were told in the end it was Amy Tierney's boyfriend's printer they seem to abandon the search at that point. Before AT gave her statement everyone was telling incorrect statements up to that stage i.e saying it was all done on OC equipment in the main reception. Asking was not enough IMO.
Personally, I found the prosecutor's summary objective:
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
It's not clear if his remark re the "margin of error" extends to Rebelo-time or not. In view of the circumstances Rebelo inherited, I found that he generally did a good job. Time constraints due to arguido status meant that he had to find evidence with which the prosecutor could charge one or more arguidos or archive the case.
I don't see how the investigation could have started from zero again with those time constraints, unless something extraordinary had popped up.
Perhaps my only (mild) criticism was to have spent seemingly ages hunting down the source of the ink to print out the photos when it would have been much easier to simply ask and verify the explanation.
They never did find the source of the printer. OK once they were told in the end it was Amy Tierney's boyfriend's printer they seem to abandon the search at that point. Before AT gave her statement everyone was telling incorrect statements up to that stage i.e saying it was all done on OC equipment in the main reception. Asking was not enough IMO.
I think I know where the fridge is, but there would be so many interesting odours in a meat fridge I suspect you won't be able to use a cadaver dog in there. How would you be able to prove any particular fridge was involved?
It is you who are looking at the investigation in a simplistic manner.Care to explain what you mean by that?
Care to explain what you mean by that?
No. I think it’s self-explanatory.Well it certainly isn't to me.
Fingerprints and DNA?Hair?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-43363791
The father of toddler who disappeared near a military base almost 37 years ago says police must regain his trust after mistakes in the search for her.
Katrice Lee, from Hartlepool, went missing from a Naafi supermarket near Paderborn, Germany in 1981.
International appeals have failed to find her, but her father Richard Lee has never given up hope.
Later, Mr Lee will meet a Royal Military Police (RMP) team that is reinvestigating the case.
Katrice went missing on 28 November 1981 - her second birthday - while out shopping with her mother Sharon, from Gosport, Hampshire.
The reinvestigation, called Operation Bute, is being carried out by the Surrey-based RMP team.
Mr Lee will be updated on its progress since Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson said he would sanction a review of the case last year.
'Get better rapport'
In 2012, Royal Military Police chiefs admitted mistakes were made during the initial investigation.
Mr Lee said said border guards were not informed when Katrice disappeared, statements from shop workers were not taken until six weeks later and information about an eye condition Katrice had was not made known.
He said: "What I'm hoping is to get a better rapport and understanding with the Royal Military Police and get clarity and understanding with what went wrong with the initial investigation.
"Hopefully, we can resolve issues and find out where my daughter is. The initial investigation was a complete mess and subsequent investigations were either closing ranks or covering mistakes.
"Trust is not a given and what the police need to do now is regain my trust."
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said it would be inappropriate to comment while the case was being reinvestigated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think we should be thankful that current politics allows for the continuation or re-investigation of historic child disappearances, given the knowledge of obvious flaws in police practice at the relevant time.
It's also disturbing to read that, like the McCanns, the Lees appear to have been given reasons a-plenty to distrust the very people abroad who were paid to help them in very distressing circumstances.
How interesting but very sad.
So Katrice Lee had an eye condition.
I wonder if it is a Coloboma like Madeleines eye condition. Is it a genetic defect? Could it be that both girls are from similar bloodlines?
I mention it because I find the name "LEE" interesting; it is part of the name HEALEY
[spelling doesn't matter, cos people did not know how to spell in ancient times]
... and my suspect has LEE bloodline connections
Probably just a co- incidence, but worth noting IMO
Tin hat on and bunkered down @)(++(*
The UK police we not involved in the investigation of MBM on her disappearance,There is no file on her here in the UK as she was not reported missing in the UK. On their return without a UK child citizen the parents were not charged with neglect or anything in this country- which is astonishing. The UK police were coerced by the parents and their celebrity band wagon to get the case reviewed. this turned into an investigation.
So to summarise there was no open/closed case for, MBM in the UK. Therefore, no new evidence was presented in the UK to open a non case.
I don't quite follow what you are saying in your post. Apart from you finding it astonishing that the McCann's were not charged with neglect or anything in this country, no they weren't, Social Services decided not to charge them, so if you are astonished then take it up with them.
The police were coerced by the parents and their celebrity band wagon to get the case reviewed, again you sound bitter about that. I signed the petition for a review and I can honestly say I am not a celebrity.
No evidence was presented to the UK to open a non case. Oh dear, you are sounding very bitter indeed. SY read through the evidence presented to the Portuguese Police and the Private investigators, they found leads that hadn't been taken up, the Portuguese Police had shelved the case, SY decided there were leads that needed investigation and so opened the case. IMO
With no outcome then it can be reasonably argued that the PJ were right not to follow these said leads,its cost upward of £11 million and counting to not find out what happened, its been asked before but just what budget do the PJ receive and why should a special budget be set aside for the McCann case above others?
How interesting but very sad.
So Katrice Lee had an eye condition.
I wonder if it is a Coloboma like Madeleines eye condition. Is it a genetic defect? Could it be that both girls are from similar bloodlines?
I mention it because I find the name "LEE" interesting; it is part of the name HEALEY
[spelling doesn't matter, cos people did not know how to spell in ancient times]
... and my suspect has LEE bloodline connections
Probably just a co- incidence, but worth noting IMO
Tin hat on and bunkered down @)(++(*
I find it offensive that so much public money has been spent on a family whose attitude towards the Portuguese police has been so appalling. Kate McCanns published diatribes towards the two GNR officers who initially responded to the report that a child had gone missing, towards PJ liaison officer Paiva and PJ coordinator Amaral are well documented. No wonder she attracts criticism wherever she goes.It strikes me as odd that as far as some people are concerned the PJ should be off limits as far as any criticism of their handling of the case is concerned, whilst the same people are scathing and contemptuous of those running Operation Grange. Why is that, in your opinion?
It strikes me as odd that as far as some people are concerned the PJ should be off limits as far as any criticism of their handling of the case is concerned, whilst the same people are scathing and contemptuous of those running Operation Grange. Why is that, in your opinion?
Provides balance.Do you believe the PJ should be above criticism?
Do you believe the PJ should be above criticism?
Scotland Yard should receive 7 times the amount of criticism imo seeing as that's how many years its taken not to find an alleged abductor.That's just silly. Aren't the PJ working on an investigation too?
Scotland Yard should receive 7 times the amount of criticism imo seeing as that's how many years its taken not to find an alleged abductor.
That's just silly. Aren't the PJ working on an investigation too?
I think you are wrong to call it nonsense.
Which part,the fact they've taken 7 yrs,or they haven't found an alleged abductor.
The difference between the PJ & SY is that the PJ haven't published any updates or nonsense about various persons of interest who supposedly were involved in an alleged burglary gone wrong.
Your argument was that the Met should receive 7 times the criticism to represent the 7 years that have elapsed without solving the case. So by this calculation how many times the criticism should the PJ get, seeing as they too appear not to have solved the case either?
Which part,the fact they've taken 7 yrs,or they haven't found an alleged abductor.
The difference between the PJ & SY is that the PJ haven't published any updates or nonsense about various persons of interest who supposedly were involved in an alleged burglary gone wrong.
Your argument was that the Met should receive 7 times the criticism to represent the 7 years that have elapsed without solving the case. So by this calculation how many times the criticism should the PJ get, seeing as they too appear not to have solved the case either?Nearly twice as much as the Met get as a rough estimate IMO.
I think you should bring this to the attention of OG. There is a deffo connection. It worries me that we have a blood line kidnapper on the loose in Europe, thank god for Brexit. Who will be next in this blood line I wonder.
Can you do projection analysis chats Sadie.. people should be warned about this
With no outcome then it can be reasonably argued that the PJ were right not to follow these said leads,its cost upward of £11 million and counting to not find out what happened, its been asked before but just what budget do the PJ receive and why should a special budget be set aside for the McCann case above others?
No, all leads should have been followed up, you are only saying the PJ were right not to follow these leads, as according to you they have no outcome. You have said that with no 'In my opinion' as you have no idea what outcome SY have had. According to you, the PJ had magic powers they look into the future and see what outcome these leads would have.
How am I to know what budget the PJ receive.
You say 'why should a special budget be set aside for the McCann's case above others' do you mean SY or the PJ? If SY then in my opinion, they are investigating as Madeleine didn't have a fair investigation. There aren't many abductions of a British child abroad as far as I can see and there were new leads found in Madeleine's case. IMO
I'm sure police can recognise that some 'leads' are not leads at all and discard them as time-wasting rubbish.
OG seem to have spent a lot of time on this. IMO
I'm sure police can recognise that some 'leads' are not leads at all and discard them as time-wasting rubbish.
OG seem to have spent a lot of time on this. IMO
So are you saying the PJ were able to tell just by looking that the leads were rubbish? Yet SY didn't think they were? OG seem to have spent a lot of time on this you say, well yes, as they have investigated everything, leaving no stone unturned as they say, which in the case of a missing child it is expected. IMO
OG has been paid large sums of money to investigate, so that is what they have done irrespective of how pointless it might have been. They will continue to do so as long as additional money is forthcoming. Again IMO
OG have been given money as they have proven they have leads to investigate. As long as there is a realistic lead to investigate they will continue. IMO
As long as money is available there will always be leads -IMO
They are not offered money before a lead is established are they?
How do you know how it works ?
OG puts an application forward, the HO approves it.
Would you like to be the Home Secretary who refused to give money to 'search' for Madeleine ?
How do you know how it works ?
OG puts an application forward, the HO approves it.
Would you like to be the Home Secretary who refused to give money to 'search' for Madeleine ?
Do you believe the PJ should be above criticism?
No, they shouldn't but lets look at the experience and timeline and difference of this ' criticism'.
It was hours after MBM Was declared to have been abducted- news via Gerrys sister . who wasn't there!
claiming the police 'weren't doing anything' the whole family got behind K&G to 'support them' ignoring the fact that it was K&G behaviour which cause an alleged disappearance to occur- ok, right, so then, who is to blame for not finding MBM within the 'important hours' well that would be the GNR-PJ Obviously.Tsk. Nothing to do with the Tapas, holding back -not phoning the police - even though Kate did claim to have known right away.
The investigation was infested, and attempts to derail it are very apparent.
The hounding and vile derogatory remarks about the police investigation was swift and never ending- even to this very day.
So it is a bit rich for the supporters to claim criticism of OG is unfair. waiting 11 years to point out some mistakes is hardly a real reason for unfair criticism.
a very interesting read in the Blacksmith Bureau blog.
"Someone is frightened that Grange is a success. The only people who could be frightened of that are potential or actual suspects".
The only realistic sentences he's ever written. IMO.
No, they shouldn't but lets look at the experience and timeline and difference of this ' criticism'.I'm glad you agree that the PJ shouldn't be above criticism as it seems that the mere mention of the fact that the initial investigation was flawed seems to irk some people. As for Blacksmith's blog, I have read it and rarely found it interesting, more often than not I find it bewilderingly bitter and cruel, as if the McCanns and their friends and supporters have done him a personal injustice.
It was hours after MBM Was declared to have been abducted- news via Gerrys sister . who wasn't there!
claiming the police 'weren't doing anything' the whole family got behind K&G to 'support them' ignoring the fact that it was K&G behaviour which cause an alleged disappearance to occur- ok, right, so then, who is to blame for not finding MBM within the 'important hours' well that would be the GNR-PJ Obviously.Tsk. Nothing to do with the Tapas, holding back -not phoning the police - even though Kate did claim to have known right away.
The investigation was infested, and attempts to derail it are very apparent.
The hounding and vile derogatory remarks about the police investigation was swift and never ending- even to this very day.
So it is a bit rich for the supporters to claim criticism of OG is unfair. waiting 11 years to point out some mistakes is hardly a real reason for unfair criticism.
a very interesting read in the Blacksmith Bureau blog.
"Someone is frightened that Grange is a success. The only people who could be frightened of that are potential or actual suspects".
The only realistic sentences he's ever written. IMO.
It is almost as though they are expecting to have fo field questions on "why did you not follow this "lead" " further down the track.
"I know it's daft beyond all reason and comprehension but let's block it off just in case"
I'm glad you agree that the PJ shouldn't be above criticism as it seems that the mere mention of the fact that the initial investigation was flawed seems to irk some people. As for Blacksmith's blog, I have read it and rarely found it interesting, more often than not I find it bewilderingly bitter and cruel, as if the McCanns and their friends and supporters have done him a personal injustice.
I'm glad you agree that the PJ shouldn't be above criticism as it seems that the mere mention of the fact that the initial investigation was flawed seems to irk some people. As for Blacksmith's blog, I have read it and rarely found it interesting, more often than not I find it bewilderingly bitter and cruel, as if the McCanns and their friends and supporters have done him a personal injustice.
Given Operation Task is suggestive of the brits being on the case from the get go they are as much to blame if as some like to believe the initial investigation was flawed,can it be said that 11yrs later anything as changed?