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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2018, 06:08:42 AM
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You would wonder what is going on here With Control Risks taking parallel statements to the PJ active case going on.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance"
"Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time."
I'm surprised by this that a PI company was allowed to operate in Portugal parallel to an active investigation!
A thread discussing this aspect "No 1 - The Search for Madeleine McCann and Control Risks Group" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3082.msg113407#msg113407 The Private Investigators - Introduction only the OP. The forum must have been quiet in those days.
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You would wonder what is going on here With Control Risks taking parallel statements to the PJ active case going on.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance"
"Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time."
I'm surprised by this that a PI company was allowed to operate in Portugal parallel to an active investigation!
A thread discussing this aspect "No 1 - The Search for Madeleine McCann and Control Risks Group" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
You get to the bottom of that report and they have a conclusion:
"Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later."
That just about guarantees the CR were not working for the McCanns. Who actually came to that conclusion?
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You get to the bottom of that report and they have a conclusion:
"Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later."
That just about guarantees the CR were not working for the McCanns. Who actually came to that conclusion?
Well it wasn't CR or the PJ;
Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
Analyst 7792 Eaton
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Well it wasn't CR or the PJ;
Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
Analyst 7792 Eaton
What so who is this analyst 7792 Eaton sounds a bit like James Bond 007.
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What so who is this analyst 7792 Eaton sounds a bit like James Bond 007.
I wonder if it was "Hugh"
From Madeleine by Kate McCann
At the last two meetings the barrister and legal assistant were joined by a consultant called Hugh, whose profession was at first not explained (Just call me Hugh, he said enigmatically) It transpired that he was a former intelligence officer, now a kidnap negotiator and counsellor. We were told that an anonymous (but evidently very generous) donor had set aside a considerable sum of money for us to put towards the cost of hiring a private investigation company if we wished.
Hugh had been brought in by a firm called control risks, which was primed to help. This company is an independent specialist risk consultancy [..] the first session Hugh attended, which took place at night, had something of a James Bond atmosphere to it.
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I wonder if it was "Hugh"
From Madeleine by Kate McCann
At the last two meetings the barrister and legal assistant were joined by a consultant called Hugh, whose profession was at first not explained (Just call me Hugh, he said enigmatically) It transpired that he was a former intelligence officer, now a kidnap negotiator and counsellor. We were told that an anonymous (but evidently very generous) donor had set aside a considerable sum of money for us to put towards the cost of hiring a private investigation company if we wished.
Hugh had been brought in by a firm called control risks, which was primed to help. This company is an independent specialist risk consultancy [..] the first session Hugh attended, which took place at night, had something of a James Bond atmosphere to it.
That was a good guess on my part and damn good work on your part to link those two. I tend to think Kate thinks CR is working on their behave but I think when it comes down to it it was OC and Mark Warner who engaged Bell Pottinger and Control Risks, so I feel they are working for them at the expense of the McCanns.
To come to a conclusion like that basically eliminates the stranger abduction theory but suggests it could be an inside job done by one or other of the Tapas 5. (but not Kate or Dianne or Rachael or Jane)
I still can't understand why GA put all the pressure on Kate. Maybe he was hoping Kate would spill the beans on one of the Tapas 5 (Fiona, David ,Gerry, Matt or Russell) on the basis of this CR report and conclusion.
"September 2007" is the date of the report so it could have been ready for the arguido interviews.
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I wonder if it was "Hugh"
From Madeleine by Kate McCann
At the last two meetings the barrister and legal assistant were joined by a consultant called Hugh, whose profession was at first not explained (Just call me Hugh, he said enigmatically) It transpired that he was a former intelligence officer, now a kidnap negotiator and counsellor. We were told that an anonymous (but evidently very generous) donor had set aside a considerable sum of money for us to put towards the cost of hiring a private investigation company if we wished.
Hugh had been brought in by a firm called control risks, which was primed to help. This company is an independent specialist risk consultancy [..] the first session Hugh attended, which took place at night, had something of a James Bond atmosphere to it.
There was an actor called Hugh Eaton.
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There was an actor called Hugh Eaton.
I am sure it wasn't him Rob unless he played James Bond 8(*(
Modified to add I wonder if he wasn't working for Control Risks Group but P A Consulting
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/hugh-eaton-obe-ma-6abba53
That guy looks like he would make a great James Bond IMO.
P A Consulting seem to supply many services from what it says here
https://www.paconsulting.com
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I am sure it wasn't him Rob unless he played James Bond 8(*(
Modified to add I wonder if he wasn't working for Control Risks Group but P A Consulting
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/hugh-eaton-obe-ma-6abba53
That guy looks like he would make a great James Bond IMO.
P A Consulting seem to supply many services from what it says here
https://www.paconsulting.com
His CV "Experienced Senior Leader with a strong track record in sales and strategy roles in the Technology industry and senior leadership positions in Government. Skilled in Government, Business Transformation, Growth Strategies, Management, and Leadership. MA in International Security Studies. Awarded the MBE and OBE for Miltary Service.
It certainly could be him.
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First of all allow me to congratulate you on your efforts to keep the ball rolling by encouraging discussion and (sometimes) clearing up some anomolies.
For example while doing some research on the forum on mistaken perceptions which have largely moulded 'sceptic' opinion, for your thread "Return of the Inspector to the crime scene - Goncalo Interview" I came across the following information which is pertinent to this one.
Regarding Control Risks and the group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance:
In the first instance Control Risks had no input to the timeline produced by the group; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm that was entirely the work of the group and was written by the witnesses.
Second ... the document was entirely in English in their own words leaving absolutely no scope for error or misunderstanding in translation and days before any of the group spoke with Control Risks detectives.
Snip
This 3-page document was not written by the CR company.
It was written and printed by the T9 themselves.
No intermediary was involved in writing it, no translation, and no translation errors, this is the original english, by the T9.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273299#msg273299
Snip
The T9 wrote it Mercury.
On a laptop borrowed from GB.
It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May.
The first statements of any of the T9 to CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273308#msg273308
Snip
I am interested in
"21:30 ... hears a sound in the childrens bedroom"
These are the exact words - there are no translation errors in this three-page document Mercury - it's the original english typed by the T9 themselves.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273310#msg273310
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What so who is this analyst 7792 Eaton sounds a bit like James Bond 007.
If you read the link you provided you will see that there was a report included which was produced by Operation Task; the UK police investigation. 7792 Eaton was a British police officer.
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First of all allow me to congratulate you on your efforts to keep the ball rolling by encouraging discussion and (sometimes) clearing up some anomolies.
For example while doing some research on the forum on mistaken perceptions which have largely moulded 'sceptic' opinion, for your thread "Return of the Inspector to the crime scene - Goncalo Interview" I came across the following information which is pertinent to this one.
Regarding Control Risks and the group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance:
In the first instance Control Risks had no input to the timeline produced by the group; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm that was entirely the work of the group and was written by the witnesses.
Second ... the document was entirely in English in their own words leaving absolutely no scope for error or misunderstanding in translation and days before any of the group spoke with Control Risks detectives.
Snip
This 3-page document was not written by the CR company.
It was written and printed by the T9 themselves.
No intermediary was involved in writing it, no translation, and no translation errors, this is the original english, by the T9.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273299#msg273299
Snip
The T9 wrote it Mercury.
On a laptop borrowed from GB.
It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May.
The first statements of any of the T9 to CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273308#msg273308
Snip
I am interested in
"21:30 ... hears a sound in the childrens bedroom"
These are the exact words - there are no translation errors in this three-page document Mercury - it's the original english typed by the T9 themselves.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273310#msg273310
Interesting then that the timeline has Gerry/ Jez meeting near the gate of the apartment and not on the other side of the road. I do wonder when Gerry changed his mind.....was it when the PJ presented him with the impossibility of this recollection at his May 10th interview?
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Interesting then that the timeline has Gerry/ Jez meeting near the gate of the apartment and not on the other side of the road. I do wonder when Gerry changed his mind.....was it when the PJ presented him with the impossibility of this recollection at his May 10th interview?
All the timelines are absolutely riveting ... which in my opinion is probably why Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria have had a very good look at them before progressing their inquiries forward.
In fact ... didn't DCI Redwood mention something along those lines regarding timelines?
Snip
Madeleine McCann could have been abducted up to 45 minutes later than thought, after detectives had a “revelation moment” when examining the timeline of the night she disappeared.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10378303/Madeleine-McCann-New-reconstruction-reveals-abduction-was-later-than-previously-thought.html
Thought so.
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All the timelines are absolutely riveting ... which in my opinion is probably why Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria have had a very good look at them before progressing their inquiries forward.
In fact ... didn't DCI Redwood mention something along those lines regarding timelines?
Snip
Madeleine McCann could have been abducted up to 45 minutes later than thought, after detectives had a “revelation moment” when examining the timeline of the night she disappeared.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10378303/Madeleine-McCann-New-reconstruction-reveals-abduction-was-later-than-previously-thought.html
Thought so.
Wasn’t the ‘revelation moment’ the ditching of Tannerman as the abductor ? I thought you thought Tannerman was still viable ?
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Wasn’t the ‘revelation moment’ the ditching of Tannerman as the abductor ? I thought you thought Tannerman was still viable ?
What I think is not the topic of the thread ... please desist from deflection from the topic which is: "Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."
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What I think is not the topic of the thread ... please desist from deflection from the topic which is: "Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc."
It was you who brought up the ditching of Tannerman. I was merely expanding on it.
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It would appear that two people from Control Risks Group may have been in Praia Da Luz prior to the 10th May 2007.
Between 5th and 12th May 2007 - two top people from Control Risks Group were dispatched to Praia da Luz, namely, Kenneth Farrow and Michael Keenan. Farrow was the ex-head of The Economic Crime Unit in the City of London Police and Keenan was an ex-Superintendent from the Metropolitan Police with specialist fraud and investigative experience. No-one knew how they could help find a missing child, but Jane Tanner admits to speaking to them before she identified Robert Murat as the man with a child she claimed to have seen on 3 May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
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It would appear that two people from Control Risks Group may have been in Praia Da Luz prior to the 10th May 2007.
Between 5th and 12th May 2007 - two top people from Control Risks Group were dispatched to Praia da Luz, namely, Kenneth Farrow and Michael Keenan. Farrow was the ex-head of The Economic Crime Unit in the City of London Police and Keenan was an ex-Superintendent from the Metropolitan Police with specialist fraud and investigative experience. No-one knew how they could help find a missing child, but Jane Tanner admits to speaking to them before she identified Robert Murat as the man with a child she claimed to have seen on 3 May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
... haven't you immediately spotted the really glaring inaccuracy in that statement?
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... haven't you immediately spotted the really glaring inaccuracy in that statement?
I think I did regarding Jane Tanner sighting. I of course don't know if the other part is incorrect but as it is elsewhere it may be true or of course false.
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I think I did regarding Jane Tanner sighting. I of course don't know if the other part is incorrect but as it is elsewhere it may be true or of course false.
Got it in one ... Jane Tanner made no such statement in my opinion certainly calling into question the veracity of the rest.
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... haven't you immediately spotted the really glaring inaccuracy in that statement?
Can you tell us please?
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Can you tell us please?
See the preceding post Robitty. Jane Tanner never identified Murat.
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First of all allow me to congratulate you on your efforts to keep the ball rolling by encouraging discussion and (sometimes) clearing up some anomolies.
For example while doing some research on the forum on mistaken perceptions which have largely moulded 'sceptic' opinion, for your thread "Return of the Inspector to the crime scene - Goncalo Interview" I came across the following information which is pertinent to this one.
Regarding Control Risks and the group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance:
In the first instance Control Risks had no input to the timeline produced by the group; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm that was entirely the work of the group and was written by the witnesses.
Second ... the document was entirely in English in their own words leaving absolutely no scope for error or misunderstanding in translation and days before any of the group spoke with Control Risks detectives.
Snip
This 3-page document was not written by the CR company.
It was written and printed by the T9 themselves.
No intermediary was involved in writing it, no translation, and no translation errors, this is the original english, by the T9.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273299#msg273299
Snip
The T9 wrote it Mercury.
On a laptop borrowed from GB.
It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May.
The first statements of any of the T9 to CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273308#msg273308
Snip
I am interested in
"21:30 ... hears a sound in the childrens bedroom"
These are the exact words - there are no translation errors in this three-page document Mercury - it's the original english typed by the T9 themselves.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg273310#msg273310
You are talking about a totally different timeline I think. I checked it myself there is the timeline up to the alert, and the one after the alert.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm was produced as you say by the Tapas 9 but that one is not the subject of this thread.
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See the preceding post Robitty. Jane Tanner never identified Murat.
But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is every possibility that she did talk to CR and before the 10th of May.
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But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is every possibility that she did talk to CR and before the 10th of May.
Of course Faithlilly. You put it far better than I did. Thank you.
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... haven't you immediately spotted the really glaring inaccuracy in that statement?
Sunny has quoted from a post by Mr Moderator the Global Moderator. Tricky to sort that one.
Someone else's claim isn't a valid cite unless the claim was that that post contained that claim.
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You are talking about a totally different timeline I think. I checked it myself there is the timeline up to the alert, and the one after the alert.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm was produced as you say by the Tapas 9 but that one is not the subject of this thread.
You mean it isn't a "Group Timeline" as per the thread title? How on earth do you justify that?
Snip
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
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But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is every possibility that she did talk to CR and before the 10th of May.
Please provide a cite detailing input from Control Risks and we can take it from there.
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Of course Faithlilly. You put it far better than I did. Thank you.
Maybe you can help with an appropriate cite?
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Maybe you can help with an appropriate cite?
Or we could ask Mr Moderator who I was actually quoting Brietta. I have no idea as there is no concrete information on when they arrived or none I can find.
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Or we could ask Mr Moderator who I was actually quoting Brietta. I have no idea as there is no concrete information on when they arrived or none I can find.
I took note of the link you used dating from 2013. Now in 2018 I make the request to you for a cite in substantiation of the error you have acknowledged in your post:
"I think I did regarding Jane Tanner sighting. I of course don't know if the other part is incorrect but as it is elsewhere it may be true or of course false."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.msg486631#msg486631
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I took note of the link you used dating from 2013. Now in 2018 I make the request to you for a cite in substantiation of the error you have acknowledged in your post:
"I think I did regarding Jane Tanner sighting. I of course don't know if the other part is incorrect but as it is elsewhere it may be true or of course false."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10120.msg486631#msg486631
I don't think I said it was definite Brietta I said
It would appear that two people from Control Risks Group may have been in Praia Da Luz prior to the 10th May 2007
Faithlilly then said
But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is every possibility that she did talk to CR and before the 10th of May.
Which agreed was more definitive. The post I quoted was from the head moderator here or so I thought. I assume that they would be correct in their information.
Anyway I have located the original of the quotation. It is a blog so the portion in question may or may not be correct as some of the timeline appears to be so but as we know parts are not.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140112164155/http://goncaloamaral.webs.com:80/investigation.htm
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Maybe you can help with an appropriate cite?
I think Sunny has made it clear, she has quoted a post made by Mr Moderator. If we disagree with Mr Moderator do we have to ask him to explain?
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You mean it isn't a "Group Timeline" as per the thread title? How on earth do you justify that?
Snip
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
IIRC the title of this thread was cut and paste from parts of the Analysis document. The people doing the analysis were aware that 5 of the Tapas 9 were involved in the searching They aren't named as a list but from what I could gather they say CR spoke to these 5, along with Emma Knight's input and CR took additional statements.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance"
"Dear Sirs,
....." [you can see that text in the link given.]
That text is cut and paste from the PJ files, so it isn't me calling it a "Group timeline" but Control Risks do in their submission to the PJ.
You can just about translate it from the original Portuguese document (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/oa/OA2_SET/OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_12.jpg)
That is why it is called what it is. - a Group Timeline ...
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I don't think I said it was definite Brietta I said
It would appear that two people from Control Risks Group may have been in Praia Da Luz prior to the 10th May 2007
Faithlilly then said
But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is every possibility that she did talk to CR and before the 10th of May.
Which agreed was more definitive. The post I quoted was from the head moderator here or so I thought. I assume that they would be correct in their information.
Anyway I have located the original of the quotation. It is a blog so the portion in question may or may not be correct as some of the timeline appears to be so but as we know parts are not.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140112164155/http://goncaloamaral.webs.com:80/investigation.htm
Thank you for that obviously balanced and definitive source which is one I have never heard of although I swear I recognise the style from somewhere or other. If you forgive me I shan't in all probability use it for many reference points in future.
Although I am fascinated that the starting point for the McCann timeline begins in 2004 with Cipriano ... a link which I am led to believe is usually anathema to some sharing the views no doubt expressed in that forum.
Welcome to our website about a remarkable man.
Gonçalo Amaral
The investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann - and the trials and tribulations of Gonçalo Amaral - a timeline:
2004
September - Leonor Cipriano, mother of 8-year-old Joana Cipriano, reported missing by her mother, who claims she disappeared whilst out shopping in the village of Figuera.
October 13 - Gonçalo Amaral heads the team which today arrested Leonor Cipriano for the murder of Joana Cipriano.
October 14 - Leonor Cipriano remanded in custody charged with killing her daughter. She is sent to Odemira Prison awaiting trial.
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Thank you for that obviously balanced and definitive source which is one I have never heard of although I swear I recognise the style from somewhere or other. If you forgive me I shan't in all probability use it for many reference points in future.
Although I am fascinated that the starting point for the McCann timeline begins in 2004 with Cipriano ... a link which I am led to believe is usually anathema to some sharing the views no doubt expressed in that forum.
Welcome to our website about a remarkable man.
Gonçalo Amaral
The investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann - and the trials and tribulations of Gonçalo Amaral - a timeline:
2004
September - Leonor Cipriano, mother of 8-year-old Joana Cipriano, reported missing by her mother, who claims she disappeared whilst out shopping in the village of Figuera.
October 13 - Gonçalo Amaral heads the team which today arrested Leonor Cipriano for the murder of Joana Cipriano.
October 14 - Leonor Cipriano remanded in custody charged with killing her daughter. She is sent to Odemira Prison awaiting trial.
Brietta you asked for a cite and I provided a cite. Nothing more nothing less. I made no claims about the cite's bias. Personally I believe Leonor Cipriano to be guilty as charged and the courts agreed as she was jailed for years and then sentenced to perjury for her claims of police brutality.
Although talking about biased webpages the Joana Cipriano wikipedia page appears to be biased too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano
No mention of Leonor Cipriano's serving seven more months for "false accusations"
http://portugalresident.com/joana-cipriano-case-“killer”-uncle-already-out-of-jail-on-“conditional-release”-0
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Brietta you asked for a cite and I provided a cite. Nothing more nothing less. I made no claims about the cite's bias. Personally I believe Leonor Cipriano to be guilty as charged and the courts agreed as she was jailed for years and then sentenced to perjury for her claims of police brutality.
Although talking about biased webpages the Joana Cipriano wikipedia page appears to be biased too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano
No mention of Leonor Cipriano's serving seven more months for "false accusations"
http://portugalresident.com/joana-cipriano-case-“killer”-uncle-already-out-of-jail-on-“conditional-release”-0
There is a Cipriano board on the forum where Leonor's case can be discussed ... the fact you chose that particular forum to quote from is what tickled me greatly as indeed the thought of it still does.
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There is a Cipriano board on the forum where Leonor's case can be discussed ... the fact you chose that particular forum to quote from is what tickled me greatly as indeed the thought of it still does.
I shall take note.
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There is a Cipriano board on the forum where Leonor's case can be discussed ... the fact you chose that particular forum to quote from is what tickled me greatly as indeed the thought of it still does.
Apologies for posting off topic. I was just giving a cite of a biased web page. could you tell me why it tickled you greatly that I found the link on a sceptic forum?
I am sorry Brietta but on re reading your post I am confused. I have quoted no forum except from here. It was when you requested me to find a cite for Mr Moderators post that I found the link on another forum.
Perhaps you could explain what you mean.
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Brietta you asked for a cite and I provided a cite. Nothing more nothing less. I made no claims about the cite's bias. Personally I believe Leonor Cipriano to be guilty as charged and the courts agreed as she was jailed for years and then sentenced to perjury for her claims of police brutality.
Although talking about biased webpages the Joana Cipriano wikipedia page appears to be biased too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano
No mention of Leonor Cipriano's serving seven more months for "false accusations"
http://portugalresident.com/joana-cipriano-case-“killer”-uncle-already-out-of-jail-on-“conditional-release”-0
her perjury was not because the beating did not take place....the court accepted it did...and that the pj were responsible
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her perjury was not because the beating did not take place....the court accepted it did...and that the pj were responsible
I don't know a lot about the case but it says here within my cite above.
Meantime, in 2013 Joana’s mother was handed an extra seven months on her jail sentence for the “false declarations” she made over injuries received while in custody.
http://portugalresident.com/joana-cipriano-case-“killer”-uncle-already-out-of-jail-on-“conditional-release”-0
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I don't know a lot about the case but it says here within my cite above.
Meantime, in 2013 Joana’s mother was handed an extra seven months on her jail sentence for the “false declarations” she made over injuries received while in custody.
http://portugalresident.com/joana-cipriano-case-“killer”-uncle-already-out-of-jail-on-“conditional-release”-0
the court accepted she was beaten by memebers of the pj,....who claimed she had fallen down the stairs whilst in custody...so they accepted they were present when the injuries took place...it seems she made allegations against officers she could not identify....apart from her confession there was no evidence against her
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the court accepted she was beaten by memebers of the pj,....who claimed she had fallen down the stairs whilst in custody...so they accepted they were present when the injuries took place...it seems she made allegations against officers she could not identify....apart from her confession there was no evidence against her
From memory she identified her assailants by name and then couldn’t identify them by sight. A bit odd really.
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From memory she identified her assailants by name and then couldn’t identify them by sight. A bit odd really.
Not too surprising ... would you be able to see through a bag which had been put over your head? Silly question ... of course you could!
How's about we all get back on topic now?
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Not too surprising ... would you be able to see through a bag which had been put over your head? Silly question ... of course you could!
How's about we all get back on topic now?
Ahh, the alleged bag.
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Not too surprising ... would you be able to see through a bag which had been put over your head? Silly question ... of course you could!
How's about we all get back on topic now?
Please could you answer my earlier question Brietta?
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Ahh, the alleged bag.
I never thought of the alleged bag when discussing this timeline for the searching covers a period when the alleged bag is still clearly in the photographs of apartment 5A. So it can't be "the bag" but more likely Madeleine, as exemplified by Smithman carrying a girl in his arms, not Smithman carrying a bag in his arms.
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IIRC the title of this thread was cut and paste from parts of the Analysis document. The people doing the analysis were aware that 5 of the Tapas 9 were involved in the searching They aren't named as a list but from what I could gather they say CR spoke to these 5, along with Emma Knight's input and CR took additional statements.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance"
"Dear Sirs,
....." [you can see that text in the link given.]
That text is cut and paste from the PJ files, so it isn't me calling it a "Group timeline" but Control Risks do in their submission to the PJ.
You can just about translate it from the original Portuguese document (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/oa/OA2_SET/OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_12.jpg)
That is why it is called what it is. - a Group Timeline ...
Brietta did you accept this now?
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You would wonder what is going on here With Control Risks taking parallel statements to the PJ active case going on.
... snip ...
A thread discussing this aspect "No 1 - The Search for Madeleine McCann and Control Risks Group" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
Mr Moderator through his research had concluded: in the post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
"The involvement of Control Risks Group at this early stage was highly significant. The company was apparently on a retainer by public relations company Bell Pottinger as part of a ‘crisis management’ team, on behalf of Mark Warner. Why were Control Risks Group brought in so soon? To help find a missing child...or was it more to do with damage limitation?
If Bell Pottinger was employed by MW, and Bell Pottinger was paying the retainer for Control Risks, was the purpose really to control the risks of "damage limitation"?
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I just can't quite see that the situation prior to the McCanns being declared arguidos is the same as when they are arguidos. IIRC the McCANNS employed Metodo 3 after they returned to England.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.msg113422#msg113422
So why were the PJ treating the activities of Control Risks as legal?
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The source of Mr Moderator's information seems to be from here http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id376.htm..
From that I get the picture that CRG (Control Risks Group) were retained by the McCanns in September, but there was talk of them working during the previous 4 months as well.
Interesting detail what CRG is about here https://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2018/05/control-risk-group-kenneth-farrow-and.html
"It is, at least, strange, that a so powerful organization, with capacity to act in war raged countries like Iraq, was hired, apparently by Bell Pottinger, to come to Praia da Luz, to investigate what could be considered a “minor” case of the disappearance a child. But this only one of the many mysteries that still surround the Madeleine McCann Case.
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Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007
Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:
1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police
2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group
3. and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,
4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police
5. and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
So am I reading that correctly "1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ? How did they get hold of them?
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Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007
Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:
1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police
2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group
3. and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,
4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police
5. and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
So am I reading that correctly "1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ? How did they get hold of them?
It is in Kate's book, Rob. I think Control Risks worked with the McCanns to produce statements in English early on and these were apparently given to the PJ. I doubt I could find a link but I will have a look.
I know it is there as I read it last night.
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Rob, it didn't take as long as I thought. From Kate's book
By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.
Unfortunately in our haste to pass the new statements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies. And they had been given and recorded in English!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vCULWkAvbu0C&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq="by+the+sunday+evening"+kate+mccann+madeleine&source=bl&ots=q25FCtGVK5&sig=gFVTS_D5fYIkYRCE8-3Cj_Fdr1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid4O2Jn7LdAhUKJcAKHWPTDtoQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ
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Rob, it didn't take as long as I thought. From Kate's book
By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.
Unfortunately in our haste to pass the new statements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many moths later that these, too, contained inaccuracies. And they had been given and recorded in English!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vCULWkAvbu0C&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq="by+the+sunday+evening"+kate+mccann+madeleine&source=bl&ots=q25FCtGVK5&sig=gFVTS_D5fYIkYRCE8-3Cj_Fdr1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid4O2Jn7LdAhUKJcAKHWPTDtoQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ
On seeing that Kate has said their earlier statements were lost in translation.
Gerry McCann 4th May
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Gerry McCann 10th May
He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Were those two statements supposed to have been the same originally then, and it was just translation error?
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I appreciate the effort you have put in there Sunny, I will steer the conversation away from aspects of the timeline prior to Kate's alarm. I want this thread to focus on the timeline post alert if possible.
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Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007
Dear Sirs,
This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.
This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:
1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police
2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group
3. and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,
4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police
5. and from questioning carried out at that time. ...."
So am I reading that correctly "1. translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ? How did they get hold of them?
What really surprised me was the role played by Emma Knights in that report, considering she had not made a statement herself by that stage. She is claiming to be vouching for some of the Tapas 5 yet she had not made an independent statement herself for those claims to be cross-checked against.
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What really surprised me was the role played by Emma Knights in that report, considering she had not made a statement herself by that stage. She is claiming to be vouching for some of the Tapas 5 yet she had not made an independent statement herself for those claims to be cross-checked against.
The only claim was that she saw David and Matthew, wasn't it?
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The only claim was that she saw David and Matthew, wasn't it?
I thought there were about 4 claims that needed verification.
1.. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area ("the beach,
the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator").
2.. and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing.
3.. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
4.. Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach
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On seeing that Kate has said their earlier statements were lost in translation.
Gerry McCann 4th May
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Gerry McCann 10th May
He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Were those two statements supposed to have been the same originally then, and it was just translation error?
This was at abouit 11am on the morning after. He must have been distressed almost out of his mind ... and had had almost no sleep. Gerry is obviously not functioning properly; he calls the appartment "The Club"
Oh, and he was refering tio the front door in the one section (Key unlocking etc). and the patio door in the other.(sliding).
With the lack of sleep and the extreme the worry etc that he must have been experiencing it is a remakable that he could remember anything; his mind must have been in a terrible jumble.
SIMPLES. Why make an accusatory "something" out of it ?
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I thought there were about 4 claims that needed verification.
1.. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area ("the beach,
the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator").
2.. and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing.
3.. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
4.. Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach
In her rogatory statement she may confirm all these points (I seem to recollect some of them) but that is really with hindsight.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm "Witness statement of Emma Louise Knight (Hotel Manager) 2008.04.30"
1. "In March 2007 I travelled to the Mark Warner complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal. My position was Client Support Manager and my function was to receive and welcome the new guests and be available to resolve any problem that might arise during their stay."
2. "At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'."
So how did Lyndsey find out prior to 22.17?
Lyndsey says "She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. This procedure consists of dividing the site into several areas, which are allocated to various of the company's employees to start searching for the missing child."
So it was Amy who put a name on the missing girl, but Amy had been working at the night creche and she had to walk from there to the McCann's apartment (a 10 minute walk I believe), confirm with Kate that Madeleine was really missing and then to walk over to her office at the tapas and ring Lyndsey who then rang Emma Knights at 10:17 PM.
10 minute walk from night creche to G5A
5 minute check to confirm Madeleine not in the apartment
2 minutes walk back to office and to ring Lyndsay
That means Amy Tierney suspected the missing girl was Madeleine earlier than Kate started off on her check at 10:00 or 10:03 if we accept Gerry's statement.
Now to make matters worse the lady who told Amy had to speak to someone out on the street looking for Maddie, so either she or the man had to also make the 5 -10 minute walk from 5A over to the night creche. And then to communicate with the girls in the night creche (a couple of minutes sorting that out.)
So that means to me that the latest that man was aware Madeleine was missing was 9:48 PM i.e. a good 20 minutes before Kate returned to the Tapas with her alarm. at 10:03 plus 5 minutes for her check and return.= i.e. 10:08 Alarm raised by Kate.
Who was this man who informed the lady who picked up her daughter from the night creche?
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This was at abouit 11am on the morning after. He must have been distressed almost out of his mind ... and had had almost no sleep. Gerry is obviously not functioning properly; he calls the appartment "The Club"
Oh, and he was refering tio the front door in the one section (Key unlocking etc). and the patio door in the other.(sliding).
With the lack of sleep and the extreme the worry etc that he must have been experiencing it is a remakable that he could remember anything; his mind must have been in a terrible jumble.
SIMPLES. Why make an accusatory "something" out of it ?
I think that Gerry, in his second statement, remembered that to use his key he would have to pass the now open window that Tanner’s ‘abductor’ had opened. Queue change of recollection.
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This was at abouit 11am on the morning after. He must have been distressed almost out of his mind ... and had had almost no sleep. Gerry is obviously not functioning properly; he calls the appartment "The Club"
Oh, and he was refering tio the front door in the one section (Key unlocking etc). and the patio door in the other.(sliding).
With the lack of sleep and the extreme the worry etc that he must have been experiencing it is a remakable that he could remember anything; his mind must have been in a terrible jumble.
SIMPLES. Why make an accusatory "something" out of it ?
Sadie he was staying in the ocean club so that would be the club. Secondly could you clarify what you mean about "sections"? They are two seperate statements 7 days apart and both are describing his entering 5a as far as I know.
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I think that Gerry, in his second statement, remembered that to use his key he would have to pass the now open window that Tanner’s ‘abductor’ had opened. Queue change of recollection.
Only if the abduction involving an open window had commenced at 9:05 which is so unlikely considering the Paynes and Matt had just been around there.
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I thought there were about 4 claims that needed verification.
1.. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area ("the beach,
the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator").
2.. and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing.
3.. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
4.. Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach
In her rogatory she says :I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches."
So here she says "and I went to search in the beach area" and that seemed to be on her own inclination which is different to bullet point #1.
There is no mention in the rogatory of seeing David and Russell on the way to the beach.
So how did that report come to that conclusion? Was it just from her conversation to the analyst?
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Rob, it didn't take as long as I thought. From Kate's book
By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.
Unfortunately in our haste to pass the new statements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies. And they had been given and recorded in English!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vCULWkAvbu0C&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq="by+the+sunday+evening"+kate+mccann+madeleine&source=bl&ots=q25FCtGVK5&sig=gFVTS_D5fYIkYRCE8-3Cj_Fdr1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid4O2Jn7LdAhUKJcAKHWPTDtoQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ
Rob did you see this earlier post.. I would have thought that any Emma Knight statement would have been passed to the PJ with the others. Are these additional statements in the files though?
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Rob did you see this earlier post.. I would have thought that any Emma Knight statement would have been passed to the PJ with the others. Are these additional statements in the files though?
No they are not. The statements made to Control Risks are not in the file.
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No they are not. The statements made to Control Risks are not in the file.
Which is very odd as Kate is very clear that these statements were passed to the PJ and also they found inaccuracies months later. I wonder where they went.
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Which is very odd as Kate is very clear that these statements were passed to the PJ and also they found inaccuracies months later. I wonder where they went.
Control Risks could have asked that any statement they made be not released to the public at the time of archiving the case. All the UK police statements were also not allowed to be released.
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This was at abouit 11am on the morning after. He must have been distressed almost out of his mind ... and had had almost no sleep. Gerry is obviously not functioning properly; he calls the appartment "The Club"
Oh, and he was refering tio the front door in the one section (Key unlocking etc). and the patio door in the other.(sliding).
With the lack of sleep and the extreme the worry etc that he must have been experiencing it is a remakable that he could remember anything; his mind must have been in a terrible jumble.
SIMPLES. Why make an accusatory "something" out of it ?
They were functioning ok to delete mobile records and get new phones.
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I have often wondered about Emma Knights and her role that night. Here she is saying she was in the apartment a long time but were any of her hairs found in the apartment? Does anyone mention that she stayed in the apartment? Did anyone see her or mention her?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate."
"848 to 849 Service information regarding number of people questioned" "LISTS OF OC/MW STAFF INTERVIEWED"
says about Emma Knight ". Due to their absence, three individuals were not questioned, Euan Crosby, Steven Jackson and Emma Knights respectively." Well she seems present at the time the Control Risks are doing this analysis.
Her name appears on this list "LIST OF PEOPLE MCCANN'S WANTED INTERVIEWED" Does that mean she would not have been interviewed at all had the McCanns not requested it?
"We submit that, their testimony [being] essential to the discovery of the truth, and given that the witnesses designated above actually live in the United Kingdom, where they will be found, (except Dan Smith and Emma Knights who will be found in Portugal), it is requested further, under Arts. 229 and following of CPP, 145 and following of Law 14-4/99 of 31 August (Law of International Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) and 3 and following of the European Convention on Mutual Legal Support in Criminal Matters, that a Rogatory Letter be expedited for them to be heard in the United Kingdom. "
It seems uncertain whether Emma lives in England or Portugal.
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Fiona Payne in her rogatory mentions Emma Knights:
"Fairly soon after, erm, a girl called Emma, who, I don't know what her position in MARK WARNER was, she was sort of, erm, tut, I don't know what you call them, she was mainly working at the reception area, just as a, erm, tut, I don't know what you call her job title, she was sort of looking after everybody'.
1485
'Just one of the travel assistants or something, yeah''
Reply
'Yeah. Erm, huh, I mean, I don't know what time she got there, it seemed quite early on, she was, she was in the room for the most part, it was me, Emma and Kate with Gerry and Dave sort of to'ing and fro'ing until the first lot of Police arrived'."
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(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/john_hill.JPG) Emma Knight or Knights
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Emma Knight was first to be apartment to get a description of missing Madeleine. Only Kate and Fiona were present at that time around 10:20pm.
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Emma Knight was first to be apartment to get a description of missing Madeleine. Only Kate and Fiona were present at that time around 10:20pm.
So when Fiona was told by Jane that she had seen someone carrying a child Fiona already knew what Madeleine was wearing that night. Is it really believable that she and Jane wouldn’t have compared the descriptions?
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Emma Knight was first to be apartment to get a description of missing Madeleine. Only Kate and Fiona were present at that time around 10:20pm.
That can't be true, Emma testifies she was only informed by phone at 10:17 PM and at that time the name of the missing person wasn't discussed so how could she go to the McCann's apartment so quickly?
You need to show me a cite to back up your claim please.
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I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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In her rogatory statement she may confirm all these points (I seem to recollect some of them) but that is really with hindsight.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm "Witness statement of Emma Louise Knight (Hotel Manager) 2008.04.30"
1. "In March 2007 I travelled to the Mark Warner complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal. My position was Client Support Manager and my function was to receive and welcome the new guests and be available to resolve any problem that might arise during their stay."
2. "At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'."
So how did Lyndsey find out prior to 22.17?
Lyndsey says "She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. This procedure consists of dividing the site into several areas, which are allocated to various of the company's employees to start searching for the missing child."
So it was Amy who put a name on the missing girl, but Amy had been working at the night creche and she had to walk from there to the McCann's apartment (a 10 minute walk I believe), confirm with Kate that Madeleine was really missing and then to walk over to her office at the tapas and ring Lyndsey who then rang Emma Knights at 10:17 PM.
10 minute walk from night creche to G5A
5 minute check to confirm Madeleine not in the apartment
2 minutes walk back to office and to ring Lyndsay
That means Amy Tierney suspected the missing girl was Madeleine earlier than Kate started off on her check at 10:00 or 10:03 if we accept Gerry's statement.
Now to make matters worse the lady who told Amy had to speak to someone out on the street looking for Maddie, so either she or the man had to also make the 5 -10 minute walk from 5A over to the night creche. And then to communicate with the girls in the night creche (a couple of minutes sorting that out.)
So that means to me that the latest that man was aware Madeleine was missing was 9:48 PM i.e. a good 20 minutes before Kate returned to the Tapas with her alarm. at 10:03 plus 5 minutes for her check and return.= i.e. 10:08 Alarm raised by Kate.
Who was this man who informed the lady who picked up her daughter from the night creche?
The problem with Amy is that she claims to have seen the open window and shutters. No-one else makes that claim, so how to explain it? If the alarm was raised at 10 pm and the woman told the creche workers after 10 pm then Amy couldn't have seen the open window and shutters because Gerry closed the shutters when he entered the apartment after Kate raised the alarm.
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The problem with Amy is that she claims to have seen the open window and shutters. No-one else makes that claim, so how to explain it? If the alarm was raised at 10 pm and the woman told the creche workers after 10 pm then Amy couldn't have seen the open window and shutters because Gerry closed the shutters when he entered the apartment after Kate raised the alarm.
Howabout reading what I wrote. I had proved that there was someone aware that Madeleine was missing at least 20 minutes before Kate came back to the Tapas Restaurant saying Madeleine was missing.
So that allows for Amy to be heading to the apartment 10 minutes or so before Kate returns. Amy therefore arrives at the time around when Kate and Gerry are there before the window has been shut.
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DW was inside the apartment at that time and said Kate was alone with the twins. I've never heard her mention Amy arriving nor Kate so it's most unlikely.
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DW was inside the apartment at that time and said Kate was alone with the twins. I've never heard her mention Amy arriving nor Kate so it's most unlikely.
Dianne Webster would have been sitting at the table when this was happening. So she would have missed Amy arriving altogether.
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Emma Knight was first to be apartment to get a description of missing Madeleine. Only Kate and Fiona were present at that time around 10:20pm.
You need to back this up with a timeline PF.
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Howabout reading what I wrote. I had proved that there was someone aware that Madeleine was missing at least 20 minutes before Kate came back to the Tapas Restaurant saying Madeleine was missing.
So that allows for Amy to be heading to the apartment 10 minutes or so before Kate returns. Amy therefore arrives at the time around when Kate and Gerry are there before the window has been shut.
How could Gerry be in the apartment before the alarm was raised?
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Dianne Webster would have been sitting at the table when this was happening. So she would have missed Amy arriving altogether.
Can't see how Amy could have arrived before or at around 10 pm How would she know where to go?
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Can't see how Amy could have arrived before or at around 10 pm How would she know where to go?
That happened because the nannies who worked the night creche were the same ones that took care of the kids while at creche during the day, so when the lady coming to collect her child said she had spoken to a "MW client looking for Maddie or Gabby" they realised he was looking for Maddy or Madeleine, and they'd probably look at their register and would have seen the McCanns were booked in at G5A and they went to check it out.
This (checking the register and starting the walk to the apartment) was before or around the time Kate was first aware Madeleine was missing.
They wouldn't arrive at the apartment until Kate got back from giving the alarm. Remember it takes about 10 minutes to walk from the creche to the apartments.
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That happened because the nannies who worked the night creche were the same ones that took care of the kids while at creche during the day, so when the lady coming to collect her child said she had spoken to a "MW client looking for Maddie or Gabby" they realised he was looking for Maddy or Madeleine, and they'd probably look at their register and would have seen the McCanns were booked in at G5A and they went to check it out.
This (checking the register and starting the walk to the apartment) was before or around the time Kate was first aware Madeleine was missing.
They wouldn't arrive at the apartment until Kate got back from giving the alarm. Remember it takes about 10 minutes to walk from the creche to the apartments.
That's an awful lot of supposition, IMO.
Theoretically the 'missing 'child might never have been in the creche system, so unknown to the nannies.
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How could Gerry be in the apartment before the alarm was raised?
My sentence may have needed an extra coma or full stop.
"So that allows for Amy to be heading to the apartment 10 minutes or so before Kate returns (after giving the alarm). Amy therefore arrives at G5A around the time when Kate and Gerry are there. That is before the window has been shut. Therefore Amy sees the window open and shutters still up.
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You need to back this up with a timeline PF.
"At the beginning of the procedure I went to the McCanns apartment" EK - that would be around 10:20pm. A simple deduction from 10:17pm. I've provided her statement already in my previous post. You seem to have a hard time with what people actually say.
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My sentence may have needed an extra coma or full stop.
"So that allows for Amy to be heading to the apartment 10 minutes or so before Kate returns (after giving the alarm). Amy therefore arrives at G5A around the time when Kate and Gerry are there. That is before the window has been shut. Therefore Amy sees the window open and shutters still up.
Gerry, Kate, David and Fiona entered the apartment. David and Fiona ran off and searched. Gerry closed the shutters. Then he left and Dianne arrived. After she left Fiona came back.
When Amy got there there were three people there. Kate, Gerry and a female friend. No female friend saw the window and shutters open.
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Dianne Webster would have been sitting at the table when this was happening. So she would have missed Amy arriving altogether.
DW got to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm was raised. Amy was not there before her.
"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
When DW arrived Kate was alone with the twins. Nobody else was present!
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DW got to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm was raised. Amy was not there before her.
"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
When DW arrived Kate was alone with the twins. Nobody else was present!
A waiter saw her sitting alone at the table. He puts the time (albeit unsure) at earlier than the original alarm.
On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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Is there any rhyme or reason to any of this? None of it makes any sense to me.
So we have several Members suggesting what they think several people did or said. And apparently without any proof.
Some of this could be Libellous.
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The problem with Amy is that she claims to have seen the open window and shutters. No-one else makes that claim, so how to explain it? If the alarm was raised at 10 pm and the woman told the creche workers after 10 pm then Amy couldn't have seen the open window and shutters because Gerry closed the shutters when he entered the apartment after Kate raised the alarm.
If you rely on the translated non verbatim statements things will not make sense as they may well be inaccurate... Kate explains in her book she was that concerned with the, statements they gave new ones in English to Control Risks... I believe... These were then passed to the PJ and I'm sure SY wil have seen these so will have a better idea of what actually happened
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Is there any rhyme or reason to any of this? None of it makes any sense to me.
So we have several Members suggesting what they think several people did or said. And apparently without any proof.
Some of this could be Libellous.
Which bits are these and who might be libeled ?
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A waiter saw her sitting alone at the table. He puts the time (albeit unsure) at earlier than the original alarm.
On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
The waiter who served them put the alarm at around 9:50pm. Matt said Kate left to check at that time and wasn't gone long. This would put the alarm time before 10pm.
By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by Kate McCann subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
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The unknown woman arrived at the night creche between 2205 and 2215.
Dianne Webster arrived at 5A at 2205. The shutters were closed. Amy, who must have arrived after Dianne, says they were open.
she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN......she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy";
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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The PJ have a list of all the cellphone calls that night. A call to a certain number will be made at a definite time. The only call that was clearly a cellphone call is the one from Lyndsey to Emma Knights. Emma says this was at 10:17 PM so work all your calculations from that call please.
If Lyndsey rang Emma at 10:17 whoever informed Lyndsay that call was before that, when and who was that?
Who called Lyndsey?
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The unknown woman arrived at the night creche between 2205 and 2215.
Dianne Webster arrived at 5A at 2205. The shutters were closed. Amy, who must have arrived after Dianne, says they were open.
she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN......she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy";
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
Looking at what Jacqueline says who could be that woman to have been informed of the situation so early that she could be at the creche by 10:05 (22.05) knowing the name of the missing child?
You would also have to consider how much is actual memory and what was added to that memory in the intervening period.
"That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
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On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy"
She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared;
The witness states that she participated in the searches, together with her colleague, Amy, searching various areas of the Ocean Club establishment. She also states that she searched the patio area of the residence where Madeleine stayed with her parents and siblings, and during which, she encountered many individuals inside the apartment but was not able to tell if they were complex employees or friends of the couple. She did not enter the residence in question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Now you know where Amy was as well. Not at apartment 5A until later.
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On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy"
She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared;
The witness states that she participated in the searches, together with her colleague, Amy, searching various areas of the Ocean Club establishment. She also states that she searched the patio area of the residence where Madeleine stayed with her parents and siblings, and during which, she encountered many individuals inside the apartment but was not able to tell if they were complex employees or friends of the couple. She did not enter the residence in question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Now you know where Amy was as well. Not at apartment 5A until later.
[/quote
Do you really think someone as fluent in speaking as Charlotte Pennington would ever say sentences sounding anything like this "She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared; "
I can barely read it let alone be sure what was being said.
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On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy, when an unknown woman came to them indicating that she was a tourist lodged at the complex and asked them if they had heard about a disappearance of a child, whose name she referred to as "Maggie" or "Maddy"
She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared;
... Snip ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Now you know where Amy was as well. Not at apartment 5A until later.
So are you trying to tell me it was Lyndsay who informed Amy that Madeleine was missing? Well if you think that was the case, continue by showing me how Lyndsey knew this in order to tell Amy "that Madeleine had indeed disappeared"?
Who told Lyndsay? For Emma says she was out in a bar when she was called by Lyndsay at 10:17. So someone had to contact Lyndsay before that? Who was it?
If Amy was informed at 10:15 by Lyndsay and the staff had the the missing child procedures underway by 10:20 as Emma says why would Amy go to apartment and do a further look around the apartment at that late stage?
What does Amy say she does at the apartment?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun."
I read that as Amy was the staff member who confirmed that Madeleine was missing, and only after that the Missing Child Procedures were commenced.
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Where are the replies? I've been waiting!
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On the 3rd of May 2007, around 22H15, the witness was working during "dinner hour", together with her colleagues Jackie and Amy.
Amy was at work not at 5A until later.
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So are you trying to tell me it was Lyndsay who informed Amy that Madeleine was missing? Well if you think that was the case, continue by showing me how Lyndsey knew this in order to tell Amy "that Madeleine had indeed disappeared"?
Who told Lyndsay? For Emma says she was out in a bar when she was called by Lyndsay at 10:17. So someone had to contact Lyndsay before that? Who was it?
If Amy was informed at 10:15 by Lyndsay and the staff had the the missing child procedures underway by 10:20 as Emma says why would Amy go to apartment and do a further look around the apartment at that late stage?
What does Amy say she does at the apartment?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
"She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.
In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun."
I read that as Amy was the staff member who confirmed that Madeleine was missing, and only after that the Missing Child Procedures were commenced.
According to the group only Fiona Payne went into the apartment with Kate (although Dianne claims to have done so no-one else confirms that). In my opinion Amy should have known Fiona. According to Fiona there were only a couple of children attending the Baby Club, and she went there every morning on her way to the beach. Amy was in charge of the baby club and the Mini Club. It seems strange that she knew Madeleine and her parents but not Fiona.
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According to the group only Fiona Payne went into the apartment with Kate (although Dianne claims to have done so no-one else confirms that). In my opinion Amy should have known Fiona. According to Fiona there were only a couple of children attending the Baby Club, and she went there every morning on her way to the beach. Amy was in charge of the baby club and the Mini Club. It seems strange that she knew Madeleine and her parents but not Fiona.
You seem to have ignored my request to follow the logical information trail.
Your opinions are interesting and maybe correct but actually proves nothing.
I asked "continue by showing me how Lyndsey knew this in order to tell Amy "that Madeleine had indeed disappeared"?
Lyndsey rang Emma, so who told Lyndsey?
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She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. Lyndsay Jane Johnson
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
Amy was at work not at apartment 5A until later. Your theory is dead in the water that she was in 5A just after the alarm was raised.
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She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. Lyndsay Jane Johnson
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
... snip ...
I take it that you agree Amy informed Lyndsey and Lyndsey informed Emma. If you do we agree on that.
I take it that you agree Amy knew the facts before Lyndsey and Lyndsey knew the facts before Emma.
So if Emma was told at 10:17 Amy has to be informed somehow prior to that?
So in your understanding how does Amy get sufficient information to be able to confirm Madeleine was missing? Sufficient information for the OC to call their staff back to work to implement the Missing Child Procedures? Surely you are not suggesting a missing child procedure was called just because the lady picking up her child said she had seen a man calling out for Maddie or Gabby!
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.. . snip ...
Amy was at work not at apartment 5A until later. Your theory is dead in the water that she was in 5A just after the alarm was raised.
Your claim to have smashed my theory, is wrong for it is without evidence of where it is at fault. For even in my theory Amy is at the night creche before she goes to the apartment.
We both agree "Amy is at the night creche before she goes to the apartment" or in your words "Amy was at work not at apartment 5A until later". That is agreed so it doesn't disprove my theory for "Amy is at the night creche before she goes to the apartment" is part of my theory as well.
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You seem to have ignored my request to follow the logical information trail.
Your opinions are interesting and maybe correct but actually proves nothing.
I asked "continue by showing me how Lyndsey knew this in order to tell Amy "that Madeleine had indeed disappeared"?
Lyndsey rang Emma, so who told Lyndsey?
Amy;
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
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Amy;
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
I have never disputed that except for the exact timing of the call.
By "informed" do you agree that means prior to that Lyndsay had no earlier indication that Madeleine was missing?
But since Lyndsay rang Emma at 10:17, Lyndsay's statement of "at around 10.20pm" really was before 10:17. OK it is only a matter of a few minutes but do you agree with that?
We still need to work out how Amy became sufficiently informed to ring Lyndsay.
G-unit I'm asking you three important questions here to sort this out.
1...By "informed" do you agree that Lyndsay means prior to that she had no earlier indication that Madeleine was missing?
2. Do you agree that Amy told Lyndsay prior to 10:17 for Lyndsay to be able to ring her Manager Emma Knights.
3. How did Amy became sufficiently informed to ring Lyndsay?
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What I have noted about Lyndsay's statement is that she appears to be on hand at the time. It is not clear how Amy informs her from Lyndsay's statement.
"She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. This procedure consists of dividing the site into several areas, which are allocated to various of the company's employees to start searching for the missing child. To that effect, the informant explains that, around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun, dividing the whole site into three distinct areas, namely the north zone, the central zone (including the area of the company) and all the roads surrounding the company and which go as far as the beach. Five of the company's employees were mobilised to coordinate the searches, helped by various people ( other employees, tourists and residents)."
OK there could be a 5 minute delay (was that related to her travel time to the site) Where does the Missing Person procedure get handled from? Did they meet at the main reception or at the Tapas area?
Maybe Amy tells us how she informed Lyndsay.
The only indication from Amy's statement is this "After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun."
Comparing that with what Lyndsay says "at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. "At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure.
OK between launching it and beginning the searches there was a mere 10 minute or so getting ready state:
"To that effect, the informant explains that, around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun"
They need staff to operate the procedure so that would take a bit of time to gather the troops.
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I have never disputed that except for the exact timing of the call.
By "informed" do you agree that means prior to that Lyndsay had no earlier indication that Madeleine was missing?
But since Lyndsay rang Emma at 10:17, Lyndsay's statement of "at around 10.20pm" really was before 10:17. OK it is only a matter of a few minutes but do you agree with that?
We still need to work out how Amy became sufficiently informed to ring Lyndsay.
G-unit I'm asking you three important questions here to sort this out.
1...By "informed" do you agree that Lyndsay means prior to that she had no earlier indication that Madeleine was missing?
2. Do you agree that Amy told Lyndsay prior to 10:17 for Lyndsay to be able to ring her Manager Emma Knights.
3. How did Amy became sufficiently informed to ring Lyndsay?
I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay. It took Lindsay five minutes to get to the Tapas. We then have to allow five minutes for Emma to go and get the description of Madeleine clothing. That means it took twenty minutes to be at a point to begin searches. Assuming that the five 'team leaders' for each search zone had arrived, gathered their teams, and were poised to begin, we can allow another five minutes for them all to move off to their designated zones.
John Hill says he was phoned by Lindsay at 22.28. He arrived at 22.35 by which time 100 people were searching and calling the child's name.
That means that Amy must have left the night creche for 5A at 22.10; twenty five minutes before John saw all those people searching.
In my opinion she phoned Lindsay after the woman arrived at 22.05, and Lindsay told her to check it out. No missing child procedure is triggered by a rumour, it had to be confirmed. Amy rang back and confirmed the disappearance following or during her visit to 5A. That was between 22.15 and 22.22 in my opinion. Lindsay then rang Emma.
As all the times are approximate the apparent three minute discrepancy isn't significant in my opinion.
We are left to wonder how the mystery woman knew a child had disappeared before her visit to the night creche, and how Amy saw the window and shutters open when no-one else did.
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I think it would have taken Amy ten minutes to get to 5A, search it, and alert Lindsay. It took Lindsay five minutes to get to the Tapas. We then have to allow five minutes for Emma to go and get the description of Madeleine clothing. That means it took twenty minutes to be at a point to begin searches. Assuming that the five 'team leaders' for each search zone had arrived, gathered their teams, and were poised to begin, we can allow another five minutes for them all to move off to their designated zones.
John Hill says he was phoned by Lindsay at 22.28. He arrived at 22.35 by which time 100 people were searching and calling the child's name.
That means that Amy must have left the night creche for 5A at 22.10; twenty five minutes before John saw all those people searching.
In my opinion she phoned Lindsay after the woman arrived at 22.05, and Lindsay told her to check it out. No missing child procedure is triggered by a rumour, it had to be confirmed. Amy rang back and confirmed the disappearance following or during her visit to 5A. That was between 22.15 and 22.22 in my opinion. Lindsay then rang Emma.
As all the times are approximate the apparent three minute discrepancy isn't significant in my opinion.
We are left to wonder how the mystery woman knew a child had disappeared before her visit to the night creche, and how Amy saw the window and shutters open when no-one else did.
Indeed.
One might also wonder when the OC staff would have got involved had they not been informally notified by this mystery woman of the rumour of a missing child.
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Indeed.
One might also wonder when the OC staff would have got involved had they not been informally notified by this mystery woman of the rumour of a missing child.
The missing child procedure seems to have been a Mark Warner affair. None of the Tapas staff seem to have thought of it. All they seem to have done was ring reception and the Millenium.