UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Wonderfulspam on April 24, 2014, 12:02:05 PM
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IMO there were no sexual assaults on British kids in PDL.
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IMO there were no sexual assualts on British kids in PDL.
Were you there? What evidence do you have?
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Were you there? What evidence do you have?
No. None, but there weren't any.
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It is rather odd though, isn't it, that this pervert only targeted British children ... I mean why ?
The same crimewatch appeal was aired in Holland and Germany, and not a single report of such assaults was reported from either country
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No. None, but there weren't any.
How can you state that there were no sexual assaults in any of these cases as fact?
If someone close to you had been assaulted, would you find it as easy to dismiss?
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It is rather odd though, isn't it, that this pervert only targeted British children ... I mean why ?
The same crimewatch appeal was aired in Holland and Germany, and not a single report of such assaults was reported from either country
Bingo.
None of these victims families bothered to speak out to the press or British police before now.
That's because there were no sexual assualts imo.
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Bingo.
None of these victims families bothered to speak out to the press or British police before now.
That's because there were no sexual assualts imo.
Wspam
You have excelled yourself with your logic NOT
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Wspam
You have excelled yourself with your logic NOT
I could be wrong...
But I'm not.
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Bingo.
None of these victims families bothered to speak out to the press or British police before now.
That's because there were no sexual assualts imo.
If your young child, niece, or godchild had been sexually assaulted, do you think it normal to contact tabloids who would have been doorstepping the family?
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If your young child, niece, or godchild had been sexually assaulted, do you think it normal to contact tabloids who would have been doorstepping the family?
If I had been on a family holiday & one of my kids was raped , I reckon I might have few things I'd want to say about the issue.
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It is rather odd though, isn't it, that this pervert only targeted British children ... I mean why ?
The same crimewatch appeal was aired in Holland and Germany, and not a single report of such assaults was reported from either country
Maybe his only language - or his only 'other' language was English? No point in talking to a Dutch or German little child in English - as they wouldn't understand a word he was saying to them. And he obviously did speak to them as they were able to describe his 'accent'.
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Maybe his only language - or his only 'other' language was English? No point in talking to a Dutch or German little child in English - as they wouldn't understand a word he was saying to them. And he obviously did speak to them as they were able to describe his 'accent'.
Why would he need to speak to them though?
He only wants to burglarise and mollest doesn't he, does it matter what part of Europe his victims are from?
For someone that doesn't bother to workout or wash he seems a rather fussy guy imo.
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If I had been on a family holiday & one of my kids was raped , I reckon I might have few things I'd want to say about the issue.
I would hope so. But who to? Would you go to the tabloids? Or would you want to protect your child's privacy?
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I would hope so. But who to? Would you go to the tabloids? Or would you want to protect your child's privacy?
I'd think.. 'shit this is pretty serious, some guy has gained untraced entry into my holiday apartment & abused my kid while I slept, I don't want this sort of thing to happen to anyone else, this guy is a danger to kids & must be stopped' & also 'I want my effing money back, with interest'
So yes, I would tell the police & the press & make a ruddy great song & dance about it.
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I would hope so. But who to? Would you go to the tabloids? Or would you want to protect your child's privacy?
WS is making a very relevant point here Carana
It would appear that the parents of these children who were sexually assaulted in Portugal returned home to Britain and just got on with life ... until the Crimewatch appeal
Why didn't they report the incidents to the British police immediately they got home ? ... if only because that would be the only way they could be made aware of what the Portuguese police were doing regarding investigating the crime
It's all rather baffling
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WS is making a very relevant point here Carana
It would appear that the parents of these children who were sexually assaulted in Portugal returned home to Britain and just got on with life ... until the Crimewatch appeal
Why didn't they report the incidents to the British police immediately they got home ? ... if only because that would be the only way they could be made aware of what the Portuguese police were doing regarding investigating the crime
It's all rather baffling
Indeed,
shrouded amongst my usual offensive wumming is the question why.
It is strange, only British kids & we only hear about it now.
Add to that, we now have umpteen witnesses of these alleged assualts, but none of them got a decent look at his face apparently.
Maybe it's just nasty cynical old me, but the story just don't make sense.
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WS is making a very relevant point here Carana
It would appear that the parents of these children who were sexually assaulted in Portugal returned home to Britain and just got on with life ... until the Crimewatch appeal
Why didn't they report the incidents to the British police immediately they got home ? ... if only because that would be the only way they could be made aware of what the Portuguese police were doing regarding investigating the crime
It's all rather baffling
Many incidents were reported to the police (it's not always clear which police). A few weren't, apparently - but it's not clear if these were "near misses", or not.
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Indeed,
shrouded amongst my usual offensive wumming is the question why.
It is strange, only British kids & we only hear about it now.
Add to that, we now have umpteen witnesses of these alleged assualts, but none of them got a decent look at his face apparently.
Maybe it's just nasty cynical old me, but the story just don't make sense.
So far, I'm not convinced that the targets were only British kids, although that's a clear lead. Tourists from other countries may have reported incidents, but there may be legal restrictions or other issues concerning updates on victims from other countries.
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WS is making a very relevant point here Carana
It would appear that the parents of these children who were sexually assaulted in Portugal returned home to Britain and just got on with life ... until the Crimewatch appeal
Why didn't they report the incidents to the British police immediately they got home ? ... if only because that would be the only way they could be made aware of what the Portuguese police were doing regarding investigating the crime
It's all rather baffling
Could it be that one of the reasons it may appear to be 'baffling' is because we only have a tiny fraction of the information which SY have?
It's clear that at least one family didn't just 'get on with their lives' - as an exerpt from one mothers's letter of complaint to the GNR about their lack of interest/action shown in what happened to their child whilst they were in Portugal is quoted in Kate's book.
We simply don't have enough information to jump to major conclusions IMO.
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So far, I'm not convinced that the targets were only British kids, although that's a clear lead. Tourists from other countries may have reported incidents, but there may be legal restrictions or other issues concerning updates on victims from other countries.
I can't see there being much harm in saying 'some other european nationals have reported similar incidents'.
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Indeed,
shrouded amongst my usual offensive wumming is the question why.
It is strange, only British kids & we only hear about it now.
Add to that, we now have umpteen witnesses of these alleged assualts, but none of them got a decent look at his face apparently.
Maybe it's just nasty cynical old me, but the story just don't make sense.
I guess you wouldn't want to lose your street cred as an offensive shock-jock WUM, but I still have hope that there's a human being lurking in there if you can transpose the situation to your own loved ones if one had disappeared.
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I can't see there being much harm in saying 'some other european nationals have reported similar incidents'.
There could be. It's up to police forces in other countries to divulge what they wish to. Op Grange can't speak on behalf of everyone.
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I guess you wouldn't want to lose your street cred as an offensive shock-jock WUM, but I still have hope that there's a human being lurking in there if you can transpose the situation to your own loved ones if one had disappeared.
There is really, but don't tell anyone.
I'll let you into a secret, sometimes when I see certain pictures of the little girl who went on holiday & never made it home, it almost brings a tear to my eye.
8(8-))
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Wonderfulspam raises an interesting question on the latest news on Madeleine topic so I think it should have its own thread.
It beggars belief that had these assaults taken place that MSM wouldn't have made a big deal of it going by their recent conduct. Could it be that some parents simply never considered reporting the incidents as they perceived them to be attempted burglaries and instead opted for a quiet life and to enjoy the rest of their holiday in relative peace?
After all, many of these tourists would not be planning a return to the area so as far as they were concerned it was water under the bridge.
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Wonderfulspam raises an interesting question on the latest news on Madeleine topic so I think it should have its own thread.
It beggars belief that had these assaults taken place that MSM wouldn't have made a big deal of it going by their recent conduct.
Furthermore, If I were the parent of a victim of these assaults in the Algarve, lets say around 2004/5, and I heard about Maddies disappearance in 2007, I would have considered a possible connection then & not waited 7 years before I told anyone.
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Furthermore, If I were the parent of a victim of these assaults in the Algarve, lets say around 2004/5, and I heard about Maddies disappearance in 2007, I would have considered a possible connection then & not waited 7 years before I told anyone.
There is always the incentive of a few bob from the Daily Rag. 8(0(*
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Furthermore, If I were the parent of a victim of these assaults in the Algarve, lets say around 2004/5, and I heard about Maddies disappearance in 2007, I would have considered a possible connection then & not waited 7 years before I told anyone.
It probably all got filtered through Paivia, who no doubt promptly binned it.
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Wonderfulspam raises an interesting question on the latest news on Madeleine topic so I think it should have its own thread.
It beggars belief that had these assaults taken place that MSM wouldn't have made a big deal of it going by their recent conduct. Could it be that some parents simply never considered reporting the incidents as they perceived them to be attempted burglaries and instead opted for a quiet life and to enjoy the rest of their holiday in relative peace?
After all, many of these tourists would not be planning a return to the area so as far as they were concerned it was water under the bridge.
To which PT police force were they reported?
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There is always the incentive of a few bob from the Daily Rag. 8(0(*
I can picture a scene,
I'm sat at home with the wife on the night of May 3rd 2007, my own child having been assualted near PDL a year or two previously, and the news comes on that a 3 year old girl has dissapeared, I reckon I'd be like..
Oooohh look dear, a little girl has gone missing from an apartment in PDL, that's right near where our own lttle girl was sexually assaulted inside our holiday apartment in the middle of the night, do you remember that?
Wife: oh god yes, & they never caught the b........ either, maybe we had better do something..
Me, Nah, lets just leave it about 7 years.
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Furthermore, If I were the parent of a victim of these assaults in the Algarve, lets say around 2004/5, and I heard about Maddies disappearance in 2007, I would have considered a possible connection then & not waited 7 years before I told anyone.
Who would you have told at the time? And who would you have told in the media frenzy post-disappearance, bearing in mind tabloid door-stepping and numerous people have found their names, addresses and phone numbers accessible to every tom dick and harry on the internet?
If a child close to you had been through a traumatising experience, are you trying to tell me that you would have given the story to the UK or the PT tabloids knowing that they would have been door-stepping the family before the ink was dry?
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I can picture a scene,
I'm sat at home with the wife on the night of May 3rd 2007, my own child having been assualted near PDL a year or two previously, and the news comes on that a 3 year old girl has dissapeared, I reckon I'd be like..
Oooohh look dear, a little girl has gone missing from an apartment in PDL, that's right near where our own lttle girl was sexually assaulted inside our holiday apartment in the middle of the night, do you remember that?
Wife: oh god yes, & they never caught the b........ either, maybe we had better do something..
Me, Nah, lets just leave it about 7 years.
No one knows, for the moment, where these assaults were reported. Why would you expect a report on a traumatic event to appear in the press in the absence of an appeal for witnesses, charges or a court case?
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Who would you have told at the time? And who would you have told in the media frenzy post-disappearance, bearing in mind tabloid door-stepping and numerous people have found their names, addresses and phone numbers accessible to every tom dick and harry on the internet?
If a child close to you had been through a traumatising experience, are you trying to tell me that you would have given the story to the UK or the PT tabloids knowing that they would have been door-stepping the family before the ink was dry?
Portuguese Police & British Police to remind them of the incident & say I thought they could be linked & then Sky News, BBC, Sun, Star, Mirror, Mail, Woman's Weekly & Watchtower.
Given that the crime against my daughter was unsolved & the PJ were apparently brushing it under the carpet, I'd want all the publicity I could get for that & to try & help nail the b....r who got Maddie, and I could also make a few quid in the process, it would help to pay for my daughters ongoing psychotherapy.
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Portuguese Police & British Police to remind them of the incident & say I thought they could be linked & then Sky News, BBC, Sun, Star, Mirror, Mail, Woman's Weekly & Watchtower.
Given that the crime against my daughter was unsolved & the PJ were apparently brushing it under the carpet, I'd want all the publicity I could get for that & to try & help nail the b....r who got Maddie, and I could also make a few quid in the process, it would help to pay for my daughters ongoing psychotherapy.
Are you seriously saying that you wouldn't mind your daughter's identity (and that of the rest of your family) with details of her sexual abuse to be displayed in every tabloid and be discussed ad infinitum all over the Internet as well as her home town?
If so, how would that be protecting her from further trauma?
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The logical thing to do would be to contact crimestoppers or your local police force even if the incident did occur abroad. After all it could also lead to the capture of your own perpertrator.
The last people that I would consider contacting would be the press. I would only ever feel the need to contact them if the UK police didn't visit me and follow things up after several attempts.
And Crimestoppers is anonymous. It is not known for facilitating recalcitrant fans blowing down to CdaPJ.
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Are you seriously saying that you wouldn't mind your daughter's identity (and that of the rest of your family) with details of her sexual abuse to be displayed in every tabloid and be discussed ad infinitum all over the Internet as well as her home town?
If so, how would that be protecting her from further trauma?
Details of her sexual abuse?
How much detail were you thinking I would need to give?
Other than 'she was sexually assualted in her bed' I don't think I'd need to say anymore.
And if she coped with the getting assualted part alright then a few people talking about it would be a walk in the park for her, don't forget she has already had a good 2 years of counselling, in this awful hypothetical scenario.
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Details of her sexual abuse?
How much detail were you thinking I would need to give?
Other than 'she was sexually assualted in her bed' I don't think I'd need to say anymore.
And if she coped with the getting assualted part alright then a few people talking about it would be a walk in the park for her, don't forget she has already had a good 2 years of counselling, in this awful hypothetical scenario.
Wouldn't it be up to your child to decide when she is ready (if ever) to discuss the events, with whom and when as opposed to you splashing her name and story all over the media? How would doing so be protecting her (and siblings) from further potential distress and trauma? Or would a few quid in the pocket from selling a story to tabloids be sufficient justification in your view?
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Wouldn't it be up to your child to decide when she is ready (if ever) to discuss the events, with whom and when as opposed to you splashing her name and story all over the media? How would doing so be protecting her (and siblings) from further potential distress and trauma? Or would a few quid in the pocket from selling a story to tabloids be sufficient justification in your view?
her name
Wouldn't necessarily need to go into that much detail either.
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Crimestoppers is not anonymous even if there is the facility to remain anonymous.
Fair enough, but anonymity is guaranteed unless that right is waived, is it not?
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her name
Wouldn't necessarily need to go into that much detail either.
Sooooooo... no name, no details. A tabloid story guaranteed by anonymous sources without a photo of distraught family. It's not as if the tabloids would try to stalk your family with the paps in bushes or even in your workplace... Heaven forbid, totally unknown in British "journalism" of course. *cough*
Hmmm.
And who would be among the first to blame the McCanns or Clarence for such an unverifiable tabloid article, do you think?
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Sooooooo... no name, no details. A tabloid story guaranteed by anonymous sources without a photo of distraught family. It's not as if the tabloids would try to stalk your family with the paps in bushes or even in your workplace... Heaven forbid, totally unknown in British "journalism" of course. *cough*
Hmmm.
And who would be among the first to blame the McCanns or Clarence for such an unverifiable tabloid article, do you think?
Well it wouldn't be me would it, I'm the one that gave them the story.
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Well it wouldn't be me would it, I'm the one that gave them the story.
So what do you make of this post by John on another thread...
The Portuguese daily, Correio da Manhã, now reporting that the police are aware of 11 victims of the predator as he entered 18 homes. If this continues the local police are going to look totally inept!
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/policia-ja-tem-onze-vitimas-do-predador
Still think there were no assaults
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So what do you make of this post by John on another thread...
The Portuguese daily, Correio da Manhã, now reporting that the police are aware of 11 victims of the predator as he entered 18 homes. If this continues the local police are going to look totally inept!
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/policia-ja-tem-onze-vitimas-do-predador
Still think there were no assaults
Yep.
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Yep.
are you a portuguese policeman...you sound like one
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Furthermore, If I were the parent of a victim of these assaults in the Algarve, lets say around 2004/5, and I heard about Maddies disappearance in 2007, I would have considered a possible connection then & not waited 7 years before I told anyone.
Not if the tabloids had convinced you that the parents "dunnit".
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11 victims of the predator as he entered 18 homes.
All British girls, right so what does he do then?
Break in, check thier passports & if they aren't British girls lying in the bed before him he manages to control his sexual predator urges & just nicks a wallet instead.
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11 victims of the predator as he entered 18 homes.
All British girls, right so what does he do then?
Break in, check thier passports & if they aren't British girls lying in the bed before him he manages to control his sexual predator urges & just nicks a wallet instead.
I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't subscribe to the view that these cases were invented by the police of both countries.
He may have often been around UK families and knew where they lived, etc., or he may have also attacked children of other nationalities and the police aren't releasing those details for the moment. Or there could be several predators.
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I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't subscribe to the view that these cases were invented by the police of both countries.
He may have often been around UK families and knew where they lived, etc., or he may have also attacked children of other nationalities and the police aren't releasing those details for the moment. Or there could be several predators.
................or of course it has nothing to do with this case at all.
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I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't subscribe to the view that these cases were invented by the police of both countries.
He may have often been around UK families and knew where they lived, etc., or he may have also attacked children of other nationalities and the police aren't releasing those details for the moment. Or there could be several predators.
Several predators, all with the same MO.
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................or of course it has nothing to do with this case at all.
It might indeed be sheer coincidence that there were 18 cases of varying degrees involving a so-far unidentified pervert in that particular area.
Whether it is connected or not, that creep still needs to be found for the sake of the victims and their families and taken off the streets to prevent further assaults.
If the review and reopening of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance hadn't taken place, these assaults would most likely have remained swept under the carpet.
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It might indeed be sheer coincidence that there were 18 cases of varying degrees involving a so-far unidentified pervert in that particular area.
Whether it is connected or not, that creep still needs to be found for the sake of the victims and their families and taken off the streets to prevent further assaults.
If the review and reopening of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance hadn't taken place, these assaults would most likely have remained swept under the carpet.
My sympathies for the 11th victim, if only the previous 10 victims had bothered to kick up a fuss about it at the time, then she could have been spared the trauma, maybe her family would have take their holiday somewhere else, given that there was a sexual predator on the loose in PDL. Shame on them.
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Several predators, all with the same MO.
There could be, I suppose. No idea.
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It might indeed be sheer coincidence that there were 18 cases of varying degrees involving a so-far unidentified pervert in that particular area.
Whether it is connected or not, that creep still needs to be found for the sake of the victims and their families and taken off the streets to prevent further assaults.
If the review and reopening of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance hadn't taken place, these assaults would most likely have remained swept under the carpet.
Paedophiles exist in all countries, make no mistake on that, and has been mentioned on numerous occasions often occupying positions of power.
I heard this week, that one MP intends to use parliamentary privilege to out another MP whom he states is a predatory paedophile.
Now that could open a can of worms.
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Paedophiles exist in all countries, make no mistake on that, and has been mentioned on numerous occasions often occupying positions of power.
I heard this week, that one MP intends to use parliamentary privilege to out another MP whom he states is a predatory paedophile.
Now that could open a can of worms.
I reckon using a tin opener would be easier though.
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My sympathies for the 11th victim, if only the previous 10 victims had bothered to kick up a fuss about it at the time, then she could have been spared the trauma, maybe her family would have take their holiday somewhere else, given that there was a sexual predator on the loose in PDL. Shame on them.
Many of the families did make reports to the police... and it's unclear whether any of them were actually investigated.
Perhaps you'd have handled it differently, but I certainly wouldn't have gone to the tabloids. To say what, exactly? I'd have had confidence in the police to investigate: that's their job. In theory.
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Many of the families did make reports to the police... and it's unclear whether any of them were actually investigated.
Perhaps you'd have handled it differently, but I certainly wouldn't have gone to the tabloids. To say what, exactly? I'd have had confidence in the police to investigate: that's their job. In theory.
To say what, exactly?
I went to the Algarve with my kids and one of them got molested by a night time intruder.
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Many of the families did make reports to the police... and it's unclear whether any of them were actually investigated.
Perhaps you'd have handled it differently, but I certainly wouldn't have gone to the tabloids. To say what, exactly? I'd have had confidence in the police to investigate: that's their job. In theory.
Probably logged in the file marked 'shredder' by Paivia.
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One of the victims was 10 when she was assaulted. It's possible she told no one about the assault until recently, not even her parents. the premise of this thread seems to be: if the assault wasn't reported straight away then it didn't happen. Tell that to the numerous victims of Jimmy Savile, RC priests, etc
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To say what, exactly?
I went to the Algarve with my kids and one of them got molested by a night time intruder.
I'm with Carana on this one. I would've gone to police in both countries and probably the holiday company too, but I wouldn't have gone to the press.
I wouldn't have risked my child being the subject of tabloid 'news'.
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I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't subscribe to the view that these cases were invented by the police of both countries.
He may have often been around UK families and knew where they lived, etc., or he may have also attacked children of other nationalities and the police aren't releasing those details for the moment. Or there could be several predators.
'All the new information has come from Britain. Despite appeals in Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland, no new information has been obtained from these countries.'
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve
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'All the new information has come from Britain. Despite appeals in Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland, no new information has been obtained from these countries.'
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve
A direct quote from Redwood in the guardian...is he telling lies...this is what icad refers to as a [ censored word ]y idea and I totally agree
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A direct quote from Redwood in the guardian...is he telling lies...this is what icad refers to as a [ censored word ]y idea and I totally agree
It's either him lying or all the alleged victims IMO.
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It's either him lying or all the alleged victims IMO.
So Redwood may be lying or all six families may be lying...perhaps you just can't accept the truth
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I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't subscribe to the view that these cases were invented by the police of both countries.
He may have often been around UK families and knew where they lived, etc., or he may have also attacked children of other nationalities and the police aren't releasing those details for the moment. Or there could be several predators.
...or could it be a case of, he will only attack tourists children as he knows from experience that the police are hardly likely to do much?
...or is it a case of best not attack Portuguese children as the police might actually do something?
...or is the predator a cop?
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One of the victims was 10 when she was assaulted. It's possible she told no one about the assault until recently, not even her parents. the premise of this thread seems to be: if the assault wasn't reported straight away then it didn't happen. Tell that to the numerous victims of Jimmy Savile, RC priests, etc
A very good point, in such cases the youngster involved sometimes don't reveal what took place for decades.
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A very good point, in such cases the youngster involved sometimes don't reveal what took place for decades.
That's true
Sometimes children, in their childlike way, assume some sort of 'guilt' when appalling things happen to them
The, then, 10 year old, is now a young woman of 19 and it is entirely possible that , only now, she is able to speak of what happened
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That's true
Sometimes children, in their childlike way, assume some sort of 'guilt' when appalling things happen to them
The, then, 10 year old, is now a young woman of 19 and it is entirely possible that , only now, she is able to speak of what happened
I am pleased to say, I agree with you, Icabod 8((()*/
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I am pleased to say, I agree with you, Icabod 8((()*/
me too
and I don't think these poor children are lying....assaults did take place
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...or could it be a case of, he will only attack tourists children as he knows from experience that the police are hardly likely to do much?
...or is it a case of best not attack Portuguese children as the police might actually do something?
...or is the predator a cop?
I have my doubts about option no. 2.
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That's true
Sometimes children, in their childlike way, assume some sort of 'guilt' when appalling things happen to them
The, then, 10 year old, is now a young woman of 19 and it is entirely possible that , only now, she is able to speak of what happened
Very sensitive post, icabod.
Some victims of such abuse are never able to disclose what happened to them.
This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
I wish her well and hope she is receiving proper counselling to help her cope with the effects of recalling a very traumatic experience.
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One of the victims was 10 when she was assaulted. It's possible she told no one about the assault until recently, not even her parents. the premise of this thread seems to be: if the assault wasn't reported straight away then it didn't happen. Tell that to the numerous victims of Jimmy Savile, RC priests, etc
I find that totally plausible. She may still not have told her close family, but she is now an adult. She may have been inhibited from coming forward before now if she thought that her family / school, whatever, would find out.
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This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
This is where I have a problem, if all the victims had spoken out sooner then further assaults could have been prevented,
Each victim who didn't is complicit in the assualt on the next kid IMO
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me too
and I don't think these poor children are lying....assaults did take place
It is highly improbable that collusion could have taken place between the children and families affected by these home invasions.
There had been no publicity at the time of the original complaints to the police.
Information from subsequent more recent reports will have been collated and matched to all the independent information held by NSY.
Therefore I agree with you, davel, these children and their families are not lying.
The assaults did occur.
All that remains now is to positively ID the perpetrator.
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This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
This is where I have a problem, if all the victims had spoken out sooner then further assaults could have been prevented,
Each victim who didn't is complicit in the assualt on the next kid IMO
No. Just.... no.
You can not blame a child for an adult's vile behaviour! You are as wrong as it's possible to be.
I imagine that each an every child who has been a victim is haunted by the idea that they are in some way responsible for their own abuse and that of subsequent children if they didn't speak out. They aren't. They are victims, not f*cking accomplices!
Jesus, I don't usually lose my rag with you WS, but how can you even consider blaming a CHILD for the actions of a paedophile??
I'm gobsmacked.
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No. Just.... no.
You can not blame a child for an adult's vile behaviour! You are as wrong as it's possible to be.
I imagine that each an every child who has been a victim is haunted by the idea that they are in some way responsible for their own abuse and that of subsequent children if they didn't speak out. They aren't. They are victims, not f*cking accomplices!
Jesus, I don't usually lose my rag with you WS, but how can you even consider blaming a CHILD for the actions of a paedophile??
I'm gobsmacked.
I blame the parents more.
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This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
This is where I have a problem, if all the victims had spoken out sooner then further assaults could have been prevented,
Each victim who didn't is complicit in the assualt on the next kid IMO
I agree wholeheartedly that one among several very good reasons to report sexual assault is as a preventative measure which will protect others.
However, this was a ten year old child.
We do not even know if she confided what had happened to her to her nearest and dearest. I have no idea if a ten year old would have seen the bigger picture and not her lone trauma.
Even if the assault had been reported, what would the outcome have been?
When Dr McCann wrote about them in 'Madeleine', she was called a liar by certain people.
IMO this young lady might only have become aware of such happenings when she heard NSY appeals and realised that she had not been the only one.
IMO she was brave to come forward, particularly as we have no idea how the ordeal has affected her.
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But what of the other assualts, the ones the parents knew about.
They went on nice family holidays, their kids got raped & not one of them bothered to go to the press & say...
'My daughter was sexually assualted in her bed by a nocturnal prowler, the police haven't caught him, don't go on holiday to PDL will you because there is a paedo on the loose'
But they didn't, they just let other families go there, knowing what could happen.
IMO, they should hang their non existant heads in shame.
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But what of the other assualts, the ones the parents knew about.
They went on nice family holidays, their kids got raped & not one of them bothered to go to the press & say...
'My daughter was sexually assualted in her bed by a nocturnal prowler, the police haven't caught him, don't go holiday to PDL will you because there is a paedo on the loose'
But they didn't, they just let other families go there, knowing what could happen.
IMO, they should hang their non existant heads in shame.
Yeah, Right !
You would do that to your kids would you?
The police are the ones you go to and your kid remains anonymous
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Yeah, Right !
You would do that to your kids would you?
The police are the ones you go to and your kid remains anonymous
So you would just keep your mouth shut & let other families go there without any warning, knowing that there is a nonce intruder on the loose.
Nice.
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No. Just.... no.
You can not blame a child for an adult's vile behaviour! You are as wrong as it's possible to be.
I imagine that each an every child who has been a victim is haunted by the idea that they are in some way responsible for their own abuse and that of subsequent children if they didn't speak out. They aren't. They are victims, not f*cking accomplices!
Jesus, I don't usually lose my rag with you WS, but how can you even consider blaming a CHILD for the actions of a paedophile??
I'm gobsmacked.
I agree, Cariad. There can be all sorts of reasons why a 10-year-old victim may not have come forward before now (and I'm not convinced that all the recent so-called victims of celebrities actually were, although a number may have been). From feeling misplaced shame to not computing that what had happened to her could be related to a 3-year-old child's disappearance until she was older... who knows? It may be a coincidence, but perhaps not. At the end of the day, she has found the courage to tell the police, whether it's related or not. Good on her.
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So you would just keep your mouth shut & let other families go there without any warning, knowing that there is a nonce intruder on the loose.
Nice.
With all the assaults we are hearing about, any police force worthy of its name would have caught him by now.
One doesn't put ones children in a position where people can mock them and ask troubling questions of them. Also with a stigma attached to them that might stick with them until the last of their days.
No-one wants the media knocking on their door, either, especially with salacious stuff like this
The PJ were the ones to deal with it, but seems either the parents were too frightened to use them .... or the PJ were just NOT interested.
Like with Carolina Santos and Rene Hasee, we hear.
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With all the assaults we are hearing about, any police force worthy of its name would have caught him by now.
One doesn't put ones children in a position where people can mock them and ask troubling questions of them. Also with a stigma attached to them that might stick with them until the last of their days.
No-one wants the media knocking on their door, either, especially with salacious stuff like this
The PJ were the ones to deal with it, but seems either the parents were too frightened to use them .... or the PJ were just NOT interested.
Like with Carolina Santos and Rene Hasee, we hear.
I find the way you use distressing incidents involving children as a way to 'score points' distasteful in the extreme
I really do
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I find the way you use distressing incidents involving children as a way to 'score points' distasteful in the extreme
I really do
Does the truth trouble you?
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I find the way you use distressing incidents involving children as a way to 'score points' distasteful in the extreme
I really do
Seconded.
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OK Right, wumming aside for the moment, these are the things I'm still struggling to understand about these attacks.
Why an intruder would be targeting only white British girls?
Why none of the victims families saw a possible connection with Maddies disappearance, prior to October 2013.
It would have been a pretty bleedin obvious possibility to me, as mentioned previously.
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OK Right, wumming aside for the moment, these are the things I'm still struggling to understand about these attacks.
Why an intruder would be targeting only white British girls?
Why none of the victims families saw a possible connection with Maddies disappearance, prior to October 2013.
It would have been a pretty bleedin obvious possibility to me, as mentioned previously.
I had to Google 'wumming'.
Ok, he's entering holiday apartments, so they're almost certainly going to be foreign nationals. Why British? ummm... Coincidence? only Brits have come forward? He was purposely targeting Brits?
It's possible people didn't make the connection because they've had ABDUCTION screamed at them for so long that they couldn't reconcile a sexual assault with MM's disappearance.
Those are just options, none of which I claim to be true. Just throwing things out there.
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This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
This is where I have a problem, if all the victims had spoken out sooner then further assaults could have been prevented,
Each victim who didn't is complicit in the assualt on the next kid IMO
with all due respect wonderful spam i think it is terrible to put the blame on innocent children that is a terrible burdern to put on a child just imo
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with all due respect wonderful spam i think it is terrible to put the blame on innocent children that is a terrible burdern to put on a child just imo
Yes I know it is, sorry.
It really was a terrible thing to say.
But alas, there is a little part of me that can't help thinking however unpleasant, distasteful & utterly disrespectful it might sound, it is kind of true really.
I blame the parents , they could have warned other families & possibly prevented further attacks but for whatever reason they came back to Blighty & sat on it until October last year, that I find wrong.
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Yes I know it is, sorry.
It really was a terrible thing to say.
But alas, there is a little part of me that can't help thinking however unpleasant, distasteful & utterly disrespectful it might sound, it is kind of true really.
I blame the parents , they could have warned other families & possibly prevented further attacks but for whatever reason they came back to Blighty & sat on it until October last year, that I find wrong.
If you can be so critical of a ten year old victim of child abuse whilst she was on holiday and blame them for the abuse of other children in the Algarve because they were too afraid or ashamed to come forward, then I take it you are similarly critical and judgmental of all those who have only recently begun to tell their own accounts of abuse at the hands of priests and high-profile celebrities?
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If you can be so critical of a ten year old victim of child abuse whilst she was on holiday and blame them for the abuse of other children in the Algarve because they were too afraid or ashamed to come forward, then I take it you are similarly critical and judgmental of all those who have only recently begun to tell their own accounts of abuse at the hands of priests and high-profile celebrities?
Indeed.
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OK Right, wumming aside for the moment, these are the things I'm still struggling to understand about these attacks.
Why an intruder would be targeting only white British girls?
Why none of the victims families saw a possible connection with Maddies disappearance, prior to October 2013.
It would have been a pretty bleedin obvious possibility to me, as mentioned previously.
First point. Good question. Were little white British girls the only targets or are those the only ones known about so far? If the former, it's presumably someone with some kind of fixation on a particular nationality (or language) or these were families he could have known more about (through work?)
Second point - many of these families had reported these incidents to the police. What did the police do with that information?
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But what of the other assualts, the ones the parents knew about.
They went on nice family holidays, their kids got raped & not one of them bothered to go to the press & say...
'My daughter was sexually assualted in her bed by a nocturnal prowler, the police haven't caught him, don't go on holiday to PDL will you because there is a paedo on the loose'
But they didn't, they just let other families go there, knowing what could happen.
IMO, they should hang their non existant heads in shame.
Some of these accounts of child sex attacks on the Algarve were well known enough that they were mentioned in a best-selling book, and in the national papers that serialised the book or wrote articles about it at the time - of course, Kate McCann and the papers were accused by McCann "sceptics" of making it all up then, as would the individuals concerned have been if they had gone to the papers independently, but that's by the by.
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First point. Good question. Were little white British girls the only targets or are those the only ones known about so far? If the former, it's presumably someone with some kind of fixation on a particular nationality (or language) or these were families he could have known more about (through work?)
Second point - many of these families had reported these incidents to the police. What did the police do with that information?
Access to guest registers at holiday resorts perhaps...
What did the police do with that information?
Can't answer that one I'm afraid.
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First point. Good question. Were little white British girls the only targets or are those the only ones known about so far? If the former, it's presumably someone with some kind of fixation on a particular nationality (or language) or these were families he could have known more about (through work?)
Or maybe the attacker was an English-speaker, and wished in some sick way to communicate with his victims or maybe he wasn't and had a grudge against the British holiday makers. It's pointless speculating, but just because that appears to have been his particular "bent" and seems on the face of it unusual, it doesn't mean the attacks couldn't have occurred.
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Or maybe the attacker was an English-speaker, and wished in some sick way to communicate with his victims or maybe he wasn't and had a grudge against the British holiday makers. It's pointless speculating, but just because that appears to have been his particular "bent" and seems on the face of it unusual, it doesn't mean the attacks couldn't have occurred.
He doesn't seem to have a face either, that I find unusual.
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He doesn't seem to have a face either, that I find unusual.
What do you mean he doesn't have a face?
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Some of these accounts of child sex attacks on the Algarve were well known enough that they were mentioned in a best-selling book, and in the national papers that serialised the book or wrote articles about it at the time - of course, Kate McCann and the papers were accused by McCann "sceptics" of making it all up then, as would the individuals concerned have been if they had gone to the papers independently, but that's by the by.
The families really pulled out all the stops when they waited for Kate to write about their torment in 2011, rather than bringing the matter up themselves.
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it is clear that there were attacks and as they have come to light due to the work of Redwood on the McCann case we can assume that they MAY be linked to Maddie
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it is clear that there were attacks and as they have come to light due to the work of Redwood on the McCann case we can assume that they MAY be linked to Maddie
WHY ? >@@(*&)
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WHY ? >@@(*&)
What case is Redwood working on...do you need reminding
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No. Just.... no.
You can not blame a child for an adult's vile behaviour! You are as wrong as it's possible to be.
I imagine that each an every child who has been a victim is haunted by the idea that they are in some way responsible for their own abuse and that of subsequent children if they didn't speak out. They aren't. They are victims, not f*cking accomplices!
Jesus, I don't usually lose my rag with you WS, but how can you even consider blaming a CHILD for the actions of a paedophile??
I'm gobsmacked.
I'm full-square with Cariad on that.
There is a Piagetian concept of egocentrism, vastly different from egotism, which is an integral component of every child's progress through the stages of maturity.
The concept describes the gradually developing maturity of a child's ability to understand the world from the perspective of others: and a person -- of either sex and any age -- the victim of violation would struggle to rationalise their response in respect of what is best of others.
I hesitate to say it can't be done, but it is a truly remarkable person who can do it.
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The families really pulled out all the stops when they waited for Kate to write about their torment in 2011, rather than bringing the matter up themselves.
Are you coming round to the idea that these attacks actually did happen now?
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Are you coming round to the idea that these attacks actually did happen now?
If you are talking about these alleged attacks then no, I'm not.
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If you are talking about these alleged attacks then no, I'm not.
So, who has made them up and why?
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So, who has made them up and why?
I haven't really given that much thought to be honest.
I just decided I was going to take this contrary postion and then fill in the detail as the drama unfolds.
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I haven't really given that much thought to be honest.
Say no more.
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So you would just keep your mouth shut & let other families go there without any warning, knowing that there is a nonce intruder on the loose.
Nice.
The police did.
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The police did.
Indeed & thinking about it more, so did the resort owners & staff, they would of known about these assaults surely,but they chose to say zip about the matter n'all, so they too are complicit in every subsequent assault IMO
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Indeed & thinking about it more, so did the resort owners & staff, they would of known about these assaults surely,but they chose to say zip about the matter n'all, so they too are complicit in every subsequent assault IMO
the resort owners and management knew about a lot of crime in the area and kept quiet...and yes...they should take some of the blame...this has already been discussed
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Indeed & thinking about it more, so did the resort owners & staff, they would of known about these assaults surely,but they chose to say zip about the matter n'all, so they too are complicit in every subsequent assault IMO
I think I understand where WS is coming from on this. We have reports of intruders and assaults but very little in the way of corroborating detail. We don't know if the "assaults" were reported to the Portuguese Police, we don't know if they were investigated and binned, we don't know if they have any link to the McCann case. We don't know why the families involved didn't kick up a huge furore over them. Yet reading this forum you would think a smoking gun had been uncovered.
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Indeed & thinking about it more, so did the resort owners & staff, they would of known about these assaults surely,but they chose to say zip about the matter n'all, so they too are complicit in every subsequent assault IMO
You went too far with the 'would of'. No matter how inflammatory you've been in the past, your use of English has always been exemplary.
Stop goading people (me) in to defensive posts! 8)-)))
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I think I understand where WS is coming from on this. We have reports of intruders and assaults but very little in the way of corroborating detail. We don't know if the "assaults" were reported to the Portuguese Police, we don't know if they were investigated and binned, we don't know if they have any link to the McCann case. We don't know why the families involved didn't kick up a huge furore over them. Yet reading this forum you would think a smoking gun had been uncovered.
we have a statement from Redwood confirming these reports ...in the Guardian...the fact that Redwood is involved with them shows there may be a link
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I think I understand where WS is coming from on this. We have reports of intruders and assaults but very little in the way of corroborating detail. We don't know if the "assaults" were reported to the Portuguese Police, we don't know if they were investigated and binned, we don't know if they have any link to the McCann case. We don't know why the families involved didn't kick up a huge furore over them. Yet reading this forum you would think a smoking gun had been uncovered.
I think I understand where WS is coming from on this.
I appreciate that must be quite difficult.
We don't know why the families involved didn't kick up a huge furore over them.
That's a bit I'm struggling with, this ain't like having your wallet nicked or getting ripped off by some bogus charity collectors.
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we have a statement from Redwood confirming these reports ...in the Guardian...the fact that Redwood is involved with them shows there may be a link
Has there not also been a statement from the Portuguese confirming that some of the attacks were reported at the time?
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Say no more.
Do you make a habit of snipping other peoples posts without having the integrity to admit that is what you have done?
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Do you make a habit of snipping other peoples posts without having the integrity to admit that is what you have done?
I was commenting on the first statement made by WS, not the second one made by him or her. I apologise unreservedly for failing to make it clear that this was the case and that I snipped out the part of WS' post that I was not commenting on.
To bring the thread back on topic, I'd like to post a link to tnis article from 5 years ago, which shows how long the public had been aware of these sex attacks:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187435/Madeleine-McCann-hunters-claim-Algarve-awash-paedophiles.html
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I was commenting on the first statement made by WS, not the second one made by him or her. I apologise unreservedly for failing to make it clear that this was the case and that I snipped out the part of WS' post that I was not commenting on.
To bring the thread back on topic, I'd like to post a link to tnis article from 5 years ago, which shows how long the public had been aware of these sex attacks:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187435/Madeleine-McCann-hunters-claim-Algarve-awash-paedophiles.html
'There are 38 known sex offenders in the Algarve,' the source said. 'The area is a magnet for paedophiles. There have been seven sexual assaults involving the children of tourists in the Algarve in the last four years.
They all have the same modus operandi as Madeleine's disappearance - that is, a break-in at a holiday apartment and children molested.
'Five happened before Madeleine's abduction, and two afterwards. One took place a month before she vanished.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187435/Madeleine-McCann-hunters-claim-Algarve-awash-paedophiles.html
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I'd be interested to hear of any proven examples of any British police force blatantly inventing criminal acts either to make headlines in the papers or to protect or entrap individuals.
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I'd be interested to hear of any proven examples of any British police force blatantly inventing criminal acts either to make headlines in the papers or to protect or entrap individuals.
Colin Stagg
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Colin Stagg
I don't remember them inventing a crime
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I don't remember them inventing a crime
I was thinking that, Rachel Nickell was definitely murdered.
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I don't remember them inventing a crime
... or to protect or entrap individuals.
In the Colin Stagg case, the police used entrapment, the so-called honeytrap.
Lord Justice Ognal took one look at the evidence, blew a gasket, turned apoplectic and dismissed the prosecution evidence.
The whole case collapsed.
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Right, back on topic.
"There have been seven sexual assaults involving the children of tourists in the Algarve in the last four years.
"They all have the same modus operandi as Madeleine's disappearance - that is, a break-in at a holiday apartment and children molested."
That's seven sets of parents who didn't do enough to highlight what had happened to their kids on holiday.
If they had spoken out more then maybe other kids would have been spared the trauma.
'Five happened before Madeleine's abduction, and two afterwards. One took place a month before she vanished.'
And they didn't say anything, heartless b......s just let other families go there unaware.
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Did these events only occur with British children, or is it only British children that our media are interested in reporting on?
I find it strange that this predator is being so selective.
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Did these events only occur with British children, or is it only British children that our media are interested in reporting on?
I find it strange that this predator is being so selective.
Indeed,
'All the new information has come from Britain. Despite appeals in Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland, no new information has been obtained from these countries.'
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve
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Perhaps other nations tend to look after their children better.
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Perhaps other nations tend to look after their children better.
Indeed. it is the normal practice in many other countries for families to be and dine together, e.g. in European Countries.
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Indeed. it is the normal practice in many other countries for families to be and dine together, e.g. in European Countries.
here where i live all dining places have a play area for the kids to play while parents eat my local one has a huge room with a kids playground etc inside and the parents are about 2 seconds away unlike the uk and other places australians dont ignore children they are encourged to be with their parents
alot of people see the UK as cold towards children as soon as they are old enough many in the uk ship their children off to boarding school etc it is a adult orintated country imo
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Right, back on topic.
"There have been seven sexual assaults involving the children of tourists in the Algarve in the last four years.
"They all have the same modus operandi as Madeleine's disappearance - that is, a break-in at a holiday apartment and children molested."
That's seven sets of parents who didn't do enough to highlight what had happened to their kids on holiday.
If they had spoken out more then maybe other kids would have been spared the trauma.
'Five happened before Madeleine's abduction, and two afterwards. One took place a month before she vanished.'
And they didn't say anything, heartless b......s just let other families go there unaware.
I don’t see it as the job of victims to publicise what they see as an isolated incident affecting their child.
I firmly believe the policing authority are the vehicle for gathering information, investigating the evidence, collating events and taking the appropriate action. They are the ones who should be able to see the bigger picture and not a transient population of tourists.
Please do not transfer blame to the victims in these events.
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I think I understand where WS is coming from on this.
I appreciate that must be quite difficult.
We don't know why the families involved didn't kick up a huge furore over them.
That's a bit I'm struggling with, this ain't like having your wallet nicked or getting ripped off by some bogus charity collectors.
I can see your point, but the very nature of the crime is so devastating and private that the risk of being identified in the press would just add to the trauma.
Not everyone who has even simply been mugged (as scary as even that must be) would feel comfortable kicking up a fuss in the press, let alone publicising a sexual assault on your child.
Going to the press could well have placed the investigations in jeopardy if the families believed that the police were actually investigating them. What would that have achieved?
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Indeed. it is the normal practice in many other countries for families to be and dine together, e.g. in European Countries.
At the moment, the information we have regarding these attacks clearly indicate that the parents were sleeping in another room when this man entered the premises.
In your opinion, do you think the parents negligent because they were not sleeping with their daughters?
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here where i live all dining places have a play area for the kids to play while parents eat my local one has a huge room with a kids playground
Did your parents use it?
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At the moment, the information we have regarding these attacks clearly indicate that the parents were sleeping in another room when this man entered the premises.
In your opinion, do you think the parents negligent because they were not sleeping with their daughters?
That doesn't explain why it appears only to be British children that have been targeted.
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Did your parents use it?
considering im 35 in july hardly 8-)(--) 8-)(--)
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Right, back on topic.
"There have been seven sexual assaults involving the children of tourists in the Algarve in the last four years.
"They all have the same modus operandi as Madeleine's disappearance - that is, a break-in at a holiday apartment and children molested."
That's seven sets of parents who didn't do enough to highlight what had happened to their kids on holiday.
If they had spoken out more then maybe other kids would have been spared the trauma.
'Five happened before Madeleine's abduction, and two afterwards. One took place a month before she vanished.'
And they didn't say anything, heartless b......s just let other families go there unaware.
It's not up to the families to publicise deeply traumatic events. These families may have thought that what happened to them was a one-off at the time and simply trusted the police to investigate.
Why blame the victims as opposed to the police who should have been investigating the cases?
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I don’t see it as the job of victims to publicise what they see as an isolated incident affecting their child.
I firmly believe the policing authority are the vehicle for gathering information, investigating the evidence, collating events and taking the appropriate action. They are the ones who should be able to see the bigger picture and not a transient population of tourists.
Please do not transfer blame to the victims in these events.
I hadn't read back up when I posted. Yes, that's my view as well.
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It's not up to the families to publicise deeply traumatic events. These families may have thought that what happened to them was a one-off at the time and simply trusted the police to investigate.
Why blame the victims as opposed to the police who should have been investigating the cases?
Because they are partly to blame for each subsequent attack, all they had to do was say....
'Don't go to the Algarve, my daughter was raped in her bed there'
But that was obviously beyond these selfish b........s.
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Did these events only occur with British children, or is it only British children that our media are interested in reporting on?
I find it strange that this predator is being so selective.
Over the period the police believe him to have carried out these offences if this person selected only British children to the exclusion of all others there will be a reason behind that.
The services of a real criminal profiler might help.
I hope the Portuguese authorities look at speeding up the mechanism to allow the PJ to release information to NSY which might help in pin pointing a person fitting the description of this man.
If only Brits were targeted I think it is logical to assume this man must have had access to information about British families on holiday, which surely must narrow the field a little.
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Because they are partly to blame for each subsequent attack, all they had to do was say....
'Don't go to the Algarve, my daughter was raped in her bed there'
But that was obviously beyond these selfish b......s.
You are still blaming the victims as opposed to the police, IMO.
What makes you think that all the families knew of other attacks?
Would you seriously have gone to the tabloids (with all the risks of being named and doorstepped) if your own child had been attacked?
For all your online wummery, I don't think you would have done if it were your family.
ETA ... and your adored child/niece who needed to be protected from further trauma.
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You are still blaming the victims as opposed to the police, IMO.
What makes you think that all the families knew of other attacks?
Would you seriously have gone to the tabloids (with all the risks of being named and doorstepped) if your own child had been attacked?
For all your online wummery, I don't think you would have done if it was your family.
You are still blaming the victims as opposed to the police, IMO.
They are all complicit, them and the resort staff, managers & tour companies n'all.
They all kept their gobs shut when little girls were nonced, allegedly.
What makes you think that all the families knew of other attacks?
I'm not saying they did but jeez, ones enough isn't it.
Would you seriously have gone to the tabloids (with all the risks of being named and doorstepped) if your own child had been attacked?
I seriously bloody well would, even more so if I thought the police (& resort owners) were brushing it under the carpet. I wouldn't want other families to take their little girls there.
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You are still blaming the victims as opposed to the police, IMO.
They are all complicit, them and the resort staff, managers & tour companies n'all.
They all kept their gobs shut when little girls were nonced, allegedly.
What makes you think that all the families knew of other attacks?
I'm not saying they did but jeez, ones enough isn't it.
Would you seriously have gone to the tabloids (with all the risks of being named and doorstepped) if your own child had been attacked?
I seriously bloody well would, even more so if I thought the police were brushing it under the carpet. I wouldn't want other families to take their little girls there.
How could these families have known that their case was being brushed under the carpet by PT police, let alone that other similar cases were also?
They may have legitimately thought that a serious investigation had been undertaken.
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How could these families have known that their case was being brushed under the carpet by PT police, let alone that other similar cases were also?
They may have legitimately thought that a serious investigation had been undertaken.
Serious investigation or no, I would still want to warn other families, that is exactly what I would do.
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Serious investigation or no, I would still want to warn other families, that is exactly what I would do.
Fair enough if you have ever been faced with the decision to publicise your child's harrowing rape situation in the tabloids, with everything that that could entail at school and in the neighborhood with the additional psychological consequences, as opposed to trusting the police.
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Fair enough if you have ever been faced with the decision to publicise your child's harrowing rape situation in the tabloids, with everything that that could entail at school and in the neighborhood with the additional psychological consequences, as opposed to trusting the police.
I would be making a song and dance about it either way.
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Having read through this thread two things strike me.
Firstly, the blame is being laid at the feet of just about everyone except the tour operator. The tour operator or at least their representatives on site are the first port of call usually when a crime has taken place. Just a thought, could some of the parents involved have been persuaded to keep the whole sordid thing quiet and been appropriately compensated?
Secondly, we have just heard in the news of how a US paedophile drugged children in the UK before abusing them and taking photos. Bearing in mind the well discussed suggestion that the McCann children were drugged, could this in fact have happened to these other children?
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Having read through this thread two things strike me.
Firstly, the blame is being laid at the feet of just about everyone except the tour operator. The tour operator or at least their representatives on site are the first port of call usually when a crime has taken place. Just a thought, could some of the parents involved have been persuaded to keep the whole sordid thing quiet and been appropriately compensated?
Secondly, we have just heard in the news of how a US paedophile drugged children in the UK before abusing them and taking photos. Bearing in mind the well discussed suggestion that the McCann children were drugged, could this in fact have happened to these other children?
If a tour company tried to buy my silence on the issue, I'd take the money, then grass them up.
And if I worked for a tour company that I knew was hushing up sex attacks on little girls then I'd be leaving ASAP, the manager/owners nose would be three foot wide across his face before I left & I'd go straight to the cops as I would struggle to live with the disgusting cover up on my conscience.
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If a tour company tried to buy my silence on the issue, I'd take the money, then grass them up.
And if I worked for a tour company that I knew was hushing up sex attacks on little girls then I'd be leaving ASAP, the manager/owners nose would be three foot wide across his face before I left & I'd go straight to the cops as I would struggle to live with the disgusting cover up on my conscience.
Maybe this particular bubble is about to burst?
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Having read through this thread two things strike me.
Firstly, the blame is being laid at the feet of just about everyone except the tour operator. The tour operator or at least their representatives on site are the first port of call usually when a crime has taken place. Just a thought, could some of the parents involved have been persuaded to keep the whole sordid thing quiet and been appropriately compensated?
Secondly, we have just heard in the news of how a US paedophile drugged children in the UK before abusing them and taking photos. Bearing in mind the well discussed suggestion that the McCann children were drugged, could this in fact have happened to these other children?
[/b]
No, they wouldn't know about it then and wouldn't have been able to report it.
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[/b]
No, they wouldn't know about it then and wouldn't have been able to report it.
The parents or other siblings would though if the predator had been disturbed which seems to be what happened in most reported cases.
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You are still blaming the victims as opposed to the police, IMO.
They are all complicit, them and the resort staff, managers & tour companies n'all.
They all kept their gobs shut when little girls were nonced, allegedly.
What makes you think that all the families knew of other attacks?
I'm not saying they did but jeez, ones enough isn't it.
Would you seriously have gone to the tabloids (with all the risks of being named and doorstepped) if your own child had been attacked?
I seriously bloody well would, even more so if I thought the police (& resort owners) were brushing it under the carpet. I wouldn't want other families to take their little girls there.
Nothing on Tripadvisor?
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Having read through this thread two things strike me.
Firstly, the blame is being laid at the feet of just about everyone except the tour operator. The tour operator or at least their representatives on site are the first port of call usually when a crime has taken place. Just a thought, could some of the parents involved have been persuaded to keep the whole sordid thing quiet and been appropriately compensated?
Secondly, we have just heard in the news of how a US paedophile drugged children in the UK before abusing them and taking photos. Bearing in mind the well discussed suggestion that the McCann children were drugged, could this in fact have happened to these other children?
On the first issue... no idea. There may have been rumours with nothing to substantiate it. It's still up to the police to investigate.
On the second... no idea, either. I would find it unlikely that the drugging scenario would have been identical in PdL. An older child accepting, e.g., a drugged coke from a trusted teacher would seem to be in a different category.
The drug may not have been in a drink, though. Is there anything reliable as to what these kids were actually drugged with?
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Serious investigation or no, I would still want to warn other families, that is exactly what I would do.
I can understand your wish to, but I doubt that you would have done so if you'd been advised not to for the sake of your own child and for the sake of any investigation underway (if any actually were at the time).
Would you seriously blow a fuse to the tabloids if you had reported it to the UK police and they had asked for your discretion in order to actually catch him?
Would you be proud of yourself if you'd blown an undercover investigation and the guy had got away?
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I can understand your wish to, but I doubt that you would have done so if you'd been advised not to for the sake of your own child and for the sake of any investigation underway (if any actually was at the time).
Would you seriously blow a fuse to the tabloids if you had reported it to the UK police and they had asked for your discretion in order to actually catch him?
Would you be proud of yourself if you'd blown an undercover investigation and the guy had got away?
Have no doubts, I f**king well would, in any scenario you care to imagine.
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Have no doubts, I f**king well would, in any scenario you care to imagine.
Ok. I understand your emotional reaction, but I still don't understand the logic.
- You started by stating that there were no sexual assaults on kids in PdL.
- Then you change your viewpoint. Why are you getting emotional about attacks that you state never happened?
- If there had been, you'd have been telling all the tabloids about it in order to hypothetically save other children even if doing so compromised an undercover investigation to actually identify and catch him?
- Who does that help and how?
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Wonderfulspam, you say you don't believe these assaults happened, then how do you explain the witnesses coming up with the same description of the man?
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Wonderfulspam, you say you don't believe these assaults happened, then how do you explain the witnesses coming up with the same description of the man?
Well, it could be called 'singing from the same hymn-sheet' 8(0(*
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I just hope none of these children who have been abused realise that posters online want to call them liars
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Well, it could be called 'singing from the same hymn-sheet' 8(0(*
How would they have known what the other witnesses had said?
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... or to protect or entrap individuals.
In the Colin Stagg case, the police used entrapment, the so-called honeytrap.
Lord Justice Ognal took one look at the evidence, blew a gasket, turned apoplectic and dismissed the prosecution evidence.
The whole case collapsed.
The police did not invent a crime in order to entrap Colin Stagg, I asked for an example of police inventing criminal acts, as they have (according to some on here) allegedly invented the sex attacks on the Algarve.
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Plebgate.
BHH excelled himself with that one.
Which criminal act was invented by the police in that case?
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How would they have known what the other witnesses had said?
I'll leave that to your imagination 8(0(*
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No, answer if you can.
The police have been to interview these people, they have given a description of the man they saw, the police wouldn't have disclosed what one set of parents had said. So how do you suppose other sets of parents have given the same description of the man?
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No, answer if you can.
The police have been to interview these people, they have given a description of the man they saw, the police wouldn't have disclosed what one set of parents had said. So how do you suppose other sets of parents have given the same description of the man?
You might like to refer to my earlier reply.
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Kate McCann writes in her best-selling and widely read book that the (I think) UK Ambassador in Portugal was the first one to alert her to the sex attacks on children in the Algarve. Now, this man is no longer Ambassador but presumably he is still alive and would be aware, if not very interested in Kate's book and surely would have something to say if she had lied about what he had told her - or are we to believe that he is in on it too?
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Kate McCann writes in her best-selling and widely read book that the (I think) UK Ambassador in Portugal was the first one to alert her to the sex attacks on children in the Algarve. Now, this man is no longer Ambassador but presumably he is still alive and would be aware, if not very interested in Kate's book and surely would have something to say if she had lied about what he had told her - or are we to believe that he is in on it too?
I'm sure his lips are sealed.
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Interview with Paul Luckman, editor of Portugal News.
@ 2hrs 38 mins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0418mms
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Bump
I heard it yesterday. Brilliant isn't it? It's refreshing that someone who doesn't toe the party line to have air apace isn't it?
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I heard it yesterday. Brilliant isn't it? It's refreshing that someone who doesn't toe the party line to have air apace isn't it?
It's a corker, it seems the editor of Portugal news has considered the possibility that these alleged sexual assaults never actually happened.
I would say 'well maybe I'm not that mad afterall' , but that would be demonstrably false.
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It's a corker, it seems the editor of Portugal news has considered the possibility that these alleged sexual assaults never actually happened.
I would say 'well maybe I'm not that mad afterall' , but that would be demonstrably false.
Haven't the portuguese officials confirmed that some of these attacks were reported and investigated?
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It's a corker, it seems the editor of Portugal news has considered the possibility that these alleged sexual assaults never actually happened.
I would say 'well maybe I'm not that mad afterall' , but that would be demonstrably false.
I thought of yo when I heard it. I meant to post it here actually, but it slipped my mind.
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If you believe these attacks never happened then it stands to reason that you also believe the ex-ambassador in Portugal is complicit in a plot to spread lies about sex attacks on children in the Algarve. Perhaps someone could venture a reason as to why that would be??
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If you believe these attacks never happened then it stands to reason that you also believe the ex-ambassador in Portugal is complicit in a plot to spread lies about sex attacks on children in the Algarve. Perhaps someone could venture a reason as to why that would be??
If your saying the ex ambassador to Portugal was aware of sex attacks on young girls prior to Madeleine's disappearance, and he didn't bother to warn British holiday makers, then I'll just add him to the list with the parents, cops & tour operators who kept their traps shut while kids got raped.
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If your saying the ex ambassador to Portugal was aware of sex attacks on young girls prior to Madeleine's disappearance, and he didn't bother to warn British holiday makers, then I'll just add him to the list with the parents, cops & tour operators who kept their traps shut while kids got raped.
or you can put him on the llist of McCann co-conspirators, which seems more likely to you?
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or you can put him on the llist of McCann co-conspirators, which seems more likely to you?
Right, so the British ambassador to Portugal was apparently fully aware that very young British girls had been sexually assaulted in their beds, inside holiday apartments & he didn't consider it important enough to mention until one dissapeared.
What a d**k.
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Right, so the British ambassador to Portugal was apparently fully aware that very young British girls had been sexually assaulted in their beds, inside holiday apartments & he didn't consider it important enough to mention until one dissapeared.
What a d**k.
Is he a dick or a co-conspirator then? You seem to be erring towards the former...?
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If your saying the ex ambassador to Portugal was aware of sex attacks on young girls prior to Madeleine's disappearance, and he didn't bother to warn British holiday makers, then I'll just add him to the list with the parents, cops & tour operators who kept their traps shut while kids got raped.
I don't see how anyone could argue with that...
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Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.
The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
But the British consul, the police, the victims parents, tour operators & anyone else who knew, managed to restrain themselves from any rooftop screaming, so they did.
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Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.
The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
But the British consul, the police, the victims parents, tour operators & anyone else who knew, managed to restrain themselves from any rooftop screaming, so they did.
Likewise don't forget to blame all the thousands of children at boarding schools or in care who were aware of sex abuse in the hundreds of schools and homes throughout the country where this has occurred over the years, also all the friends, parents, teachers and careworkers etc who did not immediately shout these crimes from any available rooftop, not to mention all the police officers to whom these crimes may have been reported but who did not immediately phone up the Sun and the Mirror to divulge all the details. Don't limit your criticisms just to the few dozen people involved in the Madeleine McCann case please!
If you have been a victim of abuse or related in some way to a victim of abuse and not told everybody about it using all available media and rooftop, then hang your head in shame seems to be Wonderful Spam's angle on this.
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it's quite obvious that there has been a massive cover up of sex crimes against children in tourist areas...this is not surprising when you think how Casa Pia was supressed. The scale of the cover up is confirmed by the fact that even the largest ex pat newspaper had no knowledge of the attacks...astonishing
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Likewise don't forget to blame all the thousands of children at boarding schools or in care who were aware of sex abuse in the hundreds of schools and homes throughout the country where this has occurred over the years, also all the friends, parents, teachers and careworkers etc who did not immediately shout these crimes from any available rooftop, not to mention all the police officers to whom these crimes may have been reported but who did not immediately phone up the Sun and the Mirror to divulge all the details. Don't limit your criticisms just to the few dozen people involved in the Madeleine McCann case please!
If you have been a victim of abuse or related in some way to a victim of abuse and not told everybody about it using all available media and rooftop, then hang your head in shame seems to be Wonderful Spam's angle on this.
divulge all the details.
We've already been thought this,
A simple 'Don't go to Portugal, theres a child sex offender on the loose' would be a start.
Don't limit your criticisms just to the few dozen people involved in the Madeleine McCann case please!
Ok then, I won't.
Everyone who has ever known about child sex offences anywhere in any given situation & didn't bother to warn anyone else, is complicit in any subsequent sexual assaults IMO
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divulge all the details.
We've already been thought this,
A simple 'Don't go to Portugal, theres a child sex offender on the loose' would be a start.
Don't limit your criticisms just to the few dozen people involved in the Madeleine McCann case please!
Ok then, I won't.
Everyone who has ever known about child sex offences anywhere in any given situation & didn't bother to warn anyone else, is complicit in any subsequent sexual assaults IMO
it is just incredible that the cover up was on such a scale and parents were not warned...someone should be held accountable for this
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it's quite obvious that there has been a massive cover up of sex crimes against children in tourist areas...this is not surprising when you think how Casa Pia was supressed. The scale of the cover up is confirmed by the fact that even the largest ex pat newspaper had no knowledge of the attacks...astonishing
Good point. Let's also not forget the cover-up of sex crimes by Jimmy Savile which appear to have been fairly common knowledge to many in the British media but remained unreported until after his death. Were his victims guilty of failing to climb to the highest rooftop and screaming? It's a sad fact of life that many people prefer to put the blame on the victim instead of the perpetrator and that is what seems to be happening here too.
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It's obvious why Mark Warner had no baby listening service in PDL
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Good point. Let's also not forget the cover-up of sex crimes by Jimmy Savile which appear to have been fairly common knowledge to many in the British media but remained unreported until after his death. Were his victims guilty of failing to climb to the highest rooftop and screaming? It's a sad fact of life that many people prefer to put the blame on the victim instead of the perpetrator and that is what seems to be happening here too.
I was thinking of savile and how children were simply not believed...we are seeing the victims blamed and not believed on this forum and posters complain when I call them evil...
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divulge all the details.
We've already been thought this,
A simple 'Don't go to Portugal, theres a child sex offender on the loose' would be a start.
*SNIPPED* once again because I only wish to comment on the above part
There are sex attackers on the loose in most parts of the world. Is it the job of the British police to keep tabs on all of these, see where there may be a pattern of abuse occurring and then issue warnings to the UK public every time one strikes abroad?
If British police issued a statement now saying "The Algarve has been declared unsafe for British children to visit" would you approve of their actions?
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I was thinking of savile and how children were simply not believed...we are seeing the victims blamed and not believed on this forum and posters complain when I call them evil...
Irrelevant, these were adults aware of the sex assault on kids & who did jack shit in terms of warning people.
That sounds either evil or cowardly to me.
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There are sex attackers on the loose in most parts of the world. Is it the job of the British police to keep tabs on all of these, see where there may be a pattern of abuse occurring and then issue warnings to the UK public every time one strikes abroad?
If British police issued a statement now saying "The Algarve has been declared unsafe for British children to visit" would you approve of their actions?
That is a hard one to answer, Alfred.
The Foreign Office issues alerts advising when it is dangerous to visit certain countries either as a result of natural disasters or terrorist activity.
If a holiday destination is a known haunt of paedophiles where assaults are taking place, perhaps there is an implicit duty to warn people taking children there on holiday.
IMO the indigenous population in the Algarve could not be offended by such warnings as the majority of the people I have seen mentioned in media reports are known paedophiles who are British ex pats.
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[.... edited out unfair comment ...]
If sexual abuse is reported without any proof of the alleged crime and only the words of a child, what do you think happens next?
And if they approached the Press, still with no proof, what do you think they would be told?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Times have changed( thank goodness) and children now are more likely to confide in their parents, but I wonder how the story below would compare today…….
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A man with 4 children had been sexually abusing his family and other children too until his eldest child was old enough to leave home and she reported it, but there was no proof of abuse and therefore nothing was done. The remaining family too afraid and ashamed to disclose their experiences, kept quiet.
The paedophiles wife left, taking her other children who totally turned their backs on their father, not even attending his funeral.. Three of them now live abroad.
The paedophile remarried and had 3 more children, who were probably also violated,.
The paedophile complained to his sister that his second wife was trying to poison him and shortly after, he died of a heart attack.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
His daughter by his first marriage, who was brave enough to report him is now a grandma, but her daughter in law will not leave her child with her….Why?? I guess this has something to do with it……………………….
Just one part of the painful stigma suffered by an abused child of course…..
History repeating itself as a possibility, and is often told by psychologists etc .
As if the pain of distrust, guilt, shame, feeling dirty and it must have been partly my fault, isn’t enough to suffer for the crime committed by another.
If his daughter had managed to get the press to publish about her abusive father, what difference would it have made since the area all knew of his daughter‘s accusation and if the story had made to the press …. they could have been dealing with slander. So NO GO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now if this occurred in a foreign country and it was an unknown stranger, do you not think it would have been taken even less seriously?
All those families who have been violated in Portugal and it never hit the news, now hear that it is being investigated by UK police, so despite the stigma that may affect the family if names are leaked, they came forward………………………………...................................…
Well done to those brave enough to have done this. 8@??)( 8@??)(
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[... edited out unfair comment ...]
If sexual abuse is reported without any proof of the alleged crime and only the words of a child, what do you think happens next?
And if they approached the Press, still with no proof, what do you think they would be told?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Times have changed( thank goodness) and children now are more likely to confide in their parents, but I wonder how the story below would compare today…….
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A man with 4 children had been sexually abusing his family and other children too until his eldest child was old enough to leave home and she reported it, but there was no proof of abuse and therefore nothing was done. The remaining family too afraid and ashamed to disclose their experiences, kept quiet.
The paedophiles wife left, taking her other children who totally turned their backs on their father, not even attending his funeral.. Three of them now live abroad.
The paedophile remarried and had 3 more children, who were probably also violated,.
The paedophile complained to his sister that his second wife was trying to poison him and shortly after, he died of a heart attack.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
His daughter by his first marriage, who was brave enough to report him is now a grandma, but her daughter in law will not leave her child with her….Why?? I guess this has something to do with it……………………….
Just one part of the painful stigma suffered by an abused child of course…..
History repeating itself as a possibility, and is often told by psychologists etc .
As if the pain of distrust, guilt, shame, feeling dirty and it must have been partly my fault, isn’t enough to suffer for the crime committed by another.
If his daughter had managed to get the press to publish about her abusive father, what difference would it have made since the area all knew of his daughter‘s accusation and if the story had made to the press …. they could have been dealing with slander. So NO GO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now if this occurred in a foreign country and it was an unknown stranger, do you not think it would have been taken even less seriously?
All those families who have been violated in Portugal and it never hit the news, now hear that it is being investigated by UK police, so despite the stigma that may affect the family if names are leaked, they came forward………………………………...................................…
Well done to those brave enough to have done this. 8@??)( 8@??)(
If sexual abuse is reported without any proof of the alleged crime and only the words of a child, what do you think happens next?
Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.
The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
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That is a hard one to answer, Alfred.
The Foreign Office issues alerts advising when it is dangerous to visit certain countries either as a result of natural disasters or terrorist activity.
If a holiday destination is a known haunt of paedophiles where assaults are taking place, perhaps there is an implicit duty to warn people taking children there on holiday.
IMO the indigenous population in the Algarve could not be offended by such warnings as the majority of the people I have seen mentioned in media reports are known paedophiles who are British ex pats.
I do see your point, however I suspect the residents and business owners of the Algarve (many of whom aren't actually indigenous anyway) would take grave exception to just such a warning regardless of the possible nationality of the perpetrator(s). Many of those living in PdL already seem very aggrieved that Madeleine had the temerity to go missing on their patch. I can't help thinking that the police would be coming in for even more stick from McCann doubters if they were running a publicity campaign about paedophiles on the Algarve.
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If sexual abuse is reported without any proof of the alleged crime and only the words of a child, what do you think happens next?
In this particular case the British consul knew of "several cases of men getting into bed with children", this wasn't just a child's word against an adults.
If he knew then so did a lot of other adults, and they said nothing.
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If sexual abuse is reported without any proof of the alleged crime and only the words of a child, what do you think happens next?
In this particular case the British consul knew of "several cases of men getting into bed with children", this wasn't just a child's word against an adults.
If he knew then so did a lot of other adults, and they said nothing.
Unless they were just anecdotal stories with no sound evidence to support them.
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Interview with Paul Luckman, editor of Portugal News.
@ 2hrs 38 mins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0418mms
Thank you for posting that Radio 5 Live interview with Paul Luckman who publishes the largest selling English newspaper in Portugal, namely, The Portugal News.
He is totally dismissive of these reports of attacks on British children and adds that nobody is taking them seriously. He points out that these complaints were never previously reported and certainly have never been picked up by the national Press who have extensive contacts with the local police. He also questions the £7 million spent on this investigation and claims that this is an attempt by SY to justify this expenditure.
He pours scorn on the suggestion that arrests are imminent and do little to promote relations with the Portuguese police.
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Thank you for posting that Radio 5 Live interview with Paul Luckman who publishes the largest selling English newspaper in Portugal, namely, The Portugal News.
He is totally dismissive of these reports of attacks on British children and adds that nobody is taking them seriously. He points out that these complaints were never previously reported and certainly have never been picked up by the national Press who have extensive contacts with the local police. He also questions the £7 million spent on this investigation and claims that this is an attempt by SY to justify this expenditure.
He pours scorn on the suggestion that arrests are imminent and do little to promote relations with the Portuguese police.
they have been reported in CDM...so he's wrong there
the whole point is that these attacks have been supressed...which he is confirming by his lack of knowledge...
he also confirms that the McCanns have been briefed by the PJ re Monteiro and been given a power point presentation...anyone think they are still suspects
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they have been reported in CDM...so he's wrong there
the whole point is that these attacks have been supressed...which he is confirming by his lack of knowledge...
he also confirms that the McCanns have been briefed by the PJ re Monteiro and been given a power point presentation...anyone think they are still suspects
By police, parents, tour companies etc etc etc
Would you be taking hush money if your daughter were 'nonced' dave?
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Such allegations . Its a good job this is only a virtual reality world
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Perhaps to avoid future misunderstandings it's better to refrain from making any statements that are not true but written simply to provoke a reaction?
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There are no "misunderstandings", Alfred...........just pretendy - outrage from Davel, for effect......
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Obviously, adults who knew & did nothing, blame them aswell as the predator, absoloutely.
Kids, no.
This was your post...
"This young lady is to be congratulated for her courage in coming forward to assist in the identification of this man.
This is where I have a problem, if all the victims had spoken out sooner then further assaults could have been prevented,
Each victim who didn't is complicit in the assualt on the next kid IMO"
So you did blame the victim who was a child
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Quote from: carlymichelle on April 25, 2014, 04:20:37 PM
with all due respect wonderful spam i think it is terrible to put the blame on innocent children that is a terrible burdern to put on a child just imo
Following quote from Wonderful Spam:
Yes I know it is, sorry.
It really was a terrible thing to say.
But alas, there is a little part of me that can't help thinking however unpleasant, distasteful & utterly disrespectful it might sound, it is kind of true really.
Was the above a joke then? Perhaps a laughing emoticon might have helped us to see the joke?
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Quote from: carlymichelle on April 25, 2014, 04:20:37 PM
with all due respect wonderful spam i think it is terrible to put the blame on innocent children that is a terrible burdern to put on a child just imo
Following quote from Wonderful Spam:
Yes I know it is, sorry.
It really was a terrible thing to say.
But alas, there is a little part of me that can't help thinking however unpleasant, distasteful & utterly disrespectful it might sound, it is kind of true really.
Was the above a joke then? Perhaps a laughing emoticon might have helped us to see the joke?
"I agree wholeheartedly that one among several very good reasons to report sexual assault is as a preventative measure which will protect others."
Chew over that bit from one of Brietta's posts for a minute & see if you can work out the point I was making in mine.
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I agree wholeheartedly that one among several very good reasons to report sexual assault is as a preventative measure which will protect others.
Chew over that bit from Brietta's post for minute & try & work out the point I was trying to make in my post.
The point you made in your post which I quoted was clear as day - a little part of you does blame the children for failing to report crimes against them. You say so yourself. You may regret saying so now, but there we are.
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The point you made in your post which I quoted was clear as day - a little part of you does blame the children for failing to report crimes against them. You say so yourself. You may regret saying so now, but there we are.
It's true though isn't it.
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I don't think disagreeing strongly with someone who blames child victims of sex abuse for attacks on other children indicates a delicate or sensitive nature, personally I think it's to be commended.
They real problem is that there is a perception that victims of sex crimes are shamed and should pretend it didn't happen. If we treated sexual assault the same way we treat common assault then there would be no need to sweep things under the carpet and victims would be only too eager to see justice done. I agree with WS in that the children involved should not be treated as pariahs and should be encouraged to step forward and stop the perpetrators.
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They real problem is that there is a perception that victims of sex crimes are shamed and should pretend it didn't happen. If we treated sexual assault the same way we treat common assault then there would be no need to sweep things under the carpet and victims would be only too eager to see justice done. I agree with WS in that the children involved should not be treated as pariahs and should be encouraged to step forward and stop the perpetrators.
Thts not what ws said...nothing like...he put the blame on them...
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They real problem is that there is a perception that victims of sex crimes are shamed and should pretend it didn't happen. If we treated sexual assault the same way we treat common assault then there would be no need to sweep things under the carpet and victims would be only too eager to see justice done. I agree with WS in that the children involved should not be treated as pariahs and should be encouraged to step forward and stop the perpetrators.
It's just too taboo isn't it.
It isn't something people want to talk about at all, which is totally understandable because the subject matter is impossible to stomach in all seriousness.
Which is also probably why I approach it the way I do, I'm not sure I can bare thinking about it seriously.
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It's just too taboo isn't it.
It isn't something people want to talk about at all, which is totally understandable because the subject matter is impossible to stomach in all seriousness.
Which is also probably why I approach it the way I do, I'm not sure I can bare thinking about it seriously.
Strange post in view of the fact that you feel quite comfortable to discuss children being ...in your own disgusting words...nonced
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They real problem is that there is a perception that victims of sex crimes are shamed and should pretend it didn't happen. If we treated sexual assault the same way we treat common assault then there would be no need to sweep things under the carpet and victims would be only too eager to see justice done. I agree with WS in that the children involved should not be treated as pariahs and should be encouraged to step forward and stop the perpetrators.
They were children!!! How would you encourage them to step forward and stop the monster?
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Victims are almost always abused by someone they know well and it tends to be a slow process. Should a child be dragged of the street and attacked by a stranger, I think they'd be fairly willing to tell everyone, even if it were a sexual assault, however, paedophiles will get in to a child's mind. They will try and make them complicit and as soon as it's happened once and the child hasn't told, it gets harder and harder to speak out.
I read a brilliant article about how us parents should be more willing to allow our children autonomy over their own bodies (I'll try and find it). What it basically said was that every time we force our child to give Granny a kiss goodbye we they don't want to, we're taking away their right to say no and control their own space.
I found it.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/08/shouldnt-force-child-kiss-grandparent-consent-sex-education
I agree with that article. What I don't agree with however is the notion that a child would be willing to tell everyone they'd been attacked by a stranger. As someone with first-hand experience of such an occurrence I would state categorically this is not always the case.
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They were children!!! How would you encourage them to step forward and stop the monster?
If you child was punched in the street by someone who ran off, would you not do anything about it. Or would you take the child to the police and make a statement to bring the person to justice and stop him punching anyone else. If the police did nothing, would you forget about it or would you kick up a fuss until something happened. We need to move away from the shame and start standing up for the victims.
Or perhaps would you wait until crimewatch did a program about a stabbing in a nearby town and then ring up.
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If you child was punched in the street by someone who ran off, would you not do anything about it. Or would you take the child to the police and make a statement to bring the person to justice and stop him punching anyone else. If the police did nothing, would you forget about it or would you kick up a fuss until something happened. We need to move away from the shame and start standing up for the victims.
Or perhaps would you wait until crimewatch did a program about a stabbing in a nearby town and then ring up.
it might have passed you by that victims of sex crimes are given anonymity for very good reasons but minor violent crimes are not...why do you think that is
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If you child was punched in the street by someone who ran off, would you not do anything about it. Or would you take the child to the police and make a statement to bring the person to justice and stop him punching anyone else. If the police did nothing, would you forget about it or would you kick up a fuss until something happened. We need to move away from the shame and start standing up for the victims.
Or perhaps would you wait until crimewatch did a program about a stabbing in a nearby town and then ring up.
Wouldyou blame the child who failed to tell anyone about the attack for any subsequent similar attack on another child?
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If you child was punched in the street by someone who ran off, would you not do anything about it. Or would you take the child to the police and make a statement to bring the person to justice and stop him punching anyone else. If the police did nothing, would you forget about it or would you kick up a fuss until something happened. We need to move away from the shame and start standing up for the victims.
Or perhaps would you wait until crimewatch did a program about a stabbing in a nearby town and then ring up.
spam was criticising the victims
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it might have passed you by that victims of sex crimes are given anonymity for very good reasons but minor violent crimes are not...why do you think that is
To protect their honour. All to do with with the stigma of being shamed, a possible throwback to protecting the probability of a good match for a young women.
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To protect their honour. All to do with with the stigma of being shamed, a possible throwback to protecting the probability of a good match for a young women.
Absolutely true....to protect their honour...to stop them being stigmatised
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Absolutely true....to protect their honour...to stop them being stigmatised
They are stigmatised because of the antiquated attitude that an innocent victim is in some way responsible for the crime committed against them.
We need to change societies attitude.
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First off, members are warned that any further disruption this evening will incur maximum penalties. No further warning will be given.
Secondly, I deleted a new thread earlier which sought to explore the alternatives to abduction. In hindsight I should have allowed it to remain but with certain ground rules.
There are only so many alternatives eg woke and wandered and the Amaral theory. These have all been discussed at length previously but in the context of other topics. If the alternatives to abduction are to be debated I suggest they form separate threads.
Any comments please pm me. TY
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They are stigmatised because of the antiquated attitude that an innocent victim is in some way responsible for the crime committed against them.
We need to change societies attitude.
You mean the way McCcanns are treated as responsible for the crime committed against them and their family
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spam was criticising the victims
For no reason other than I knew it would cause mass outrage, yes.
It is a fact isn't it, that if more young victims of sexual assaults were able to speak out sooner then perhaps further assaults on others could be prevented.
It's not their faults that it happens, but it does happen.
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You mean the way McCcanns are treated as responsible for the crime committed against them and their family
I thought the police hadn't decided the nature of any crime.
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I just like to try and get these things straight.
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You have already criticised them...that's enough
Ok I promise I won't do it again.
Now, let's get back to these adults.
Theres got to be quite a few of them involved in this cover up hasn't there, some would be parents themselves, that's pretty bloody sick isn't it.
Personally I cannot imagine myself being involved in any conspiracy to cover up sexual assaults on children & with that I struggle to understand how so many people in this particular case could have.
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If a tour company tried to buy my silence on the issue, I'd take the money, then grass them up.
And if I worked for a tour company that I knew was hushing up sex attacks on little girls then I'd be leaving ASAP, the manager/owners nose would be three foot wide across his face before I left & I'd go straight to the cops as I would struggle to live with the disgusting cover up on my conscience.
If anyone is still unsure,
I meant exactly what I said in this post.
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Are we certain Mark Warner were aware of attacks on children.
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Are we certain Mark Warner were aware of attacks on children.
No, but then I'm struggling to understand how they couldn't know, the victims parents must have said something to them surely, I bloody well would have done if it was my kid, and if an evil b*****d like myself would do that then surely normal human beings would, wouldn't they?
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I find it very worrying that the information relating to these other alleged sex attacks on youngsters was never made public. The fact that no-one appears to have been caught seems to be down to several factors which have conspired to keep this entire debacle secret from the public. These factors will inevitably include i) victims and/or their parents failing to report, ii) police ineptitude and failure to pursue the crimes and iii) political interference in order to protect a fragile tourist industry
Now since BBC Crimewatch we have all these British tourists coming forward reporting everything on the Algarve from a predator sitting on a bed to rape and serious sexual assault. Why now?
If the PJ were aware of all these crimes why wasn't something done about this predator?
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If the PJ were aware of all these crimes why wasn't something done about this predator?
I can't get my head around the fact that the residents were kept in the dark yet when it's made public they show no outrage against the authorities and blame it on the anniversary.
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Are we certain Mark Warner were aware of attacks on children.
I am not aware of any sex attacks in Mark Warner resorts but could be wrong? I am very aware though that there were several burglaries at Ocean Club and MW did feck all to warn tourists. There were even reports by their own staff warning of strangers wandering around the grounds but nothing was done. No night guard, no security.
MW were culpable but have never been sued? Why?
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If the PJ were aware of all these crimes why wasn't something done about this predator?
I can't get my head around the fact that the residents were kept in the dark yet when it's made public they show no outrage against the authorities and blame it on the anniversary.
It could be that they are so used to the years of nonsense stories which came to nothing & there having been barely any mention of these assaults in the past seven years, that they are naturally inclined to question their veracity, like Paul Luckman did.
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The more I hear the more I think Sadie is on the right lines. Sorry Sadie I think I'm the first pro to mention that I thought some of your postings were rather far fetched, now however you have me thinking.
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It could be that they are so used to the years of nonsense stories which came to nothing & there having been barely any mention of these assaults in the past seven years, that they are naturally inclined to question their veracity, like Paul Luckman did.
What nonsense would that be? Do you really believe that ordinary normal families on holiday would suddenly decide it would be great fun to go to the police and report sexual assaults on their children if it wasn't true? What planet are you on? It's quite obvious that these reports were swept under the carpet and it's not difficult to see why.
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What nonsense would that be? Do you really believe that ordinary normal families on holiday would suddenly decide it would be great fun to go to the police and report sexual assaults on their children if it wasn't true? What planet are you on? It's quite obvious that these reports were swept under the carpet and it's not difficult to see why.
What nonsense would that be?
Take your pick.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=75.0
It's quite obvious that these reports were swept under the carpet
No it ain't, not unless you are willing to believe that victims parents & resort owners etc etc would accept bungs or be kept hushed up over child sex offences.
Simple question
If your kid was raped & someone tried to buy your silence, would you be keeping your mouth shut?
And if you worked for a tour operator that was hushing up child child sex offences, would you keep your mouth shut?
If the answer isn't no to either of those then 'What f*****g planet are you on?'
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What nonsense would that be?
Take your pick.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=75.0
It's quite obvious that these reports were swept under the carpet
No it ain't, not unless you are willing to believe that victims parents & resort owners etc etc would accept bungs or be kept hushed up over child sex offences.
Simple question
If your kid was raped & someone tried to buy your silence, would you be keeping your mouth shut?
And if you worked for a tour operator that was hushing up child child sex offences, would you keep your mouth shut?
If the answer isn't no to either of those then 'What f*****g planet are you on?'
As far as I'm aware, no one has claimed that rape took place have they? I thought the term used was 'sexual assault'.
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As far as I'm aware, no one has claimed that rape took place have they? I thought the term used was 'sexual assault'.
Splitting hairs though isn't it, rape, abuse, molestation it's all the same thing really isn't.
Ok, if you disagree then replace the word rape with molested, sexually assaulted, abused or nonced (if you really want to upset davel) and it should still have absolouteley no effect on the overall answer to the questions posed.
That answer being an outright No, I wouldn't put up with it.
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Splitting hairs though isn't it, rape, abuse, molestation it's all the same thing really isn't.
Ok, if you disagree then replace the word rape with molested, sexually assaulted, abused or nonced (if you really want to upset davel) and it should still have absolouteley no effect on the overall answer to the questions posed.
That answer being an outright No, I wouldn't put up with it.
No I wouldn't put up with it.
The reason I was splitting hairs was rape would be more likely to produce DNA evidence than say sitting on a bed would.
I'm not trying to underestimate how terrifying any act would be for the victim, I'm just trying to understand what 'sexual assault' covers.
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As far as I'm aware, no one has claimed that rape took place have they? I thought the term used was 'sexual assault'.
According to the English newspaper The Portugal News.
Figures made available from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s British Behaviour reports from three years in the period 2005 to 2010, point to 10 incidents of rape involving Britons in Portugal and 11 incidents of sexual assault. These figures do not stipulate the age of victims.
www.theportugalnews.com/news/portugal-police-re-opened-case-in-october-due-to-new-evidence-presented-by-scotland-yard/31004
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No I wouldn't put up with it.
The reason I was splitting hairs was rape would be more likely to produce DNA evidence than say sitting on a bed would.
I'm not trying to underestimate how terrifying any act would be for the victim, I'm just trying to understand what 'sexual assault' covers.
Sorry, I'm just pretty sickened by the thought of countless adults, parents at that, knowing kids were being 'assaulted' & saying nothing.
I might write some disgusting sh*t, but that being reality is more disgusting than anything I can come up with in internet imagination land.
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The Portugal News
20 March 2014
When questioned on Wednesday evening by The Portugal News about suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives, a source within Portugal’s Polícia Judíciaria (PJ) headquarters in Lisbon said that this information was incorrect.
He said that evidence of a string of crimes, including a sexual predator’s activities at coastal resorts popular with holidaymakers in the western Algarve, had in fact been the main driving force behind Portuguese officials deciding to re-open the case.
“Looking into the activities of this particular individual was our primary line of investigation”, our police source said, adding: “It is all there in the police case files. You will see when it is made public.”
“We met with Andy Redwood and Madeleine’s parents last October to inform them of the reasons behind the decision of Portuguese authorities to re-open the case”, the police source stressed.
He added that revelations yesterday at the New Scotland Yard do not contain any further information other than what had already been passed on to the Metropolitan Police in the aforementioned meeting.
So who is telling lies?
The PJ say that they already passed the details of these sexual assaults onto SY while they claim ownership following the Crimewatch programme.
www.theportugalnews.com/news/portugal-police-re-opened-case-in-october-due-to-new-evidence-presented-by-scotland-yard/31004
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Paul Allen-Luckman, the editor of the Portugal News appears to be very supportive of the PJ in every interview and article I have seen. He is the sort of guy who won't take prisoners or will suffer fools gladly. Makes a refreshing change from British MSM.
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The Portugal News
20 March 2014
When questioned on Wednesday evening by The Portugal News about suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives, a source within Portugal’s Polícia Judíciaria (PJ) headquarters in Lisbon said that this information was incorrect.
He said that evidence of a string of crimes, including a sexual predator’s activities at coastal resorts popular with holidaymakers in the western Algarve, had in fact been the main driving force behind Portuguese officials deciding to re-open the case.
“Looking into the activities of this particular individual was our primary line of investigation”, our police source said, adding: “It is all there in the police case files. You will see when it is made public.”
“We met with Andy Redwood and Madeleine’s parents last October to inform them of the reasons behind the decision of Portuguese authorities to re-open the case”, the police source stressed.
He added that revelations yesterday at the New Scotland Yard do not contain any further information other than what had already been passed on to the Metropolitan Police in the aforementioned meeting.
So who is telling lies?
The PJ say that they already passed the details of these sexual assaults onto SY while they claim ownership following the Crimewatch programme.
www.theportugalnews.com/news/portugal-police-re-opened-case-in-october-due-to-new-evidence-presented-by-scotland-yard/31004
I found this bit interesting.
To date, three international letters of request have been sent to the Attorney-General’s office, but none have contained an official request to accompany field work or questioning of persons of interest by Portuguese detectives.
“Detectives from the Metropolitan Police Service have expressed the intention to come over to Portugal and assist in any inquires that might take place. But this intention has not yet been made official”, the source said.
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The Portugal News
20 March 2014
When questioned on Wednesday evening by The Portugal News about suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives, a source within Portugal’s Polícia Judíciaria (PJ) headquarters in Lisbon said that this information was incorrect.
He said that evidence of a string of crimes, including a sexual predator’s activities at coastal resorts popular with holidaymakers in the western Algarve, had in fact been the main driving force behind Portuguese officials deciding to re-open the case.
“Looking into the activities of this particular individual was our primary line of investigation”, our police source said, adding: “It is all there in the police case files. You will see when it is made public.”
“We met with Andy Redwood and Madeleine’s parents last October to inform them of the reasons behind the decision of Portuguese authorities to re-open the case”, the police source stressed.
He added that revelations yesterday at the New Scotland Yard do not contain any further information other than what had already been passed on to the Metropolitan Police in the aforementioned meeting.
So who is telling lies?
The PJ say that they already passed the details of these sexual assaults onto SY while they claim ownership following the Crimewatch programme.
www.theportugalnews.com/news/portugal-police-re-opened-case-in-october-due-to-new-evidence-presented-by-scotland-yard/31004
So according to that, the PJ and SY are following the same leads? What would happen if they found different perpetrators?
So say SY think it's Mr Blue and the PJ thinks it's Mr Green, there's only circumstantial evidence against both and both police forces with to prosecute?
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So according to that, the PJ and SY are following the same leads? What would happen if they found different perpetrators?
So say SY think it's Mr Blue and the PJ thinks it's Mr Green, there's only circumstantial evidence against both and both police forces with to prosecute?
SY have no official status in Portugal. They are merely guests of the State and have to seek permission for everything they do.
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Paul Allen-Luckman, the editor of the Portugal News appears to be very supportive of the PJ in every interview and article I have seen. He is the sort of guy who won't take prisoners or will suffer fools gladly. Makes a refreshing change from British MSM.
I didn't think he seemed to be terribly well informed about the burglaries which have been taking place on the Algarve, which IMO is a bit odd for a newspaper editor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKx0ND1jBwA
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I didn't think he seemed to be terribly well informed about the burglaries which have been taking place on the Algarve, which IMO is a bit odd for a newspaper editor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKx0ND1jBwA
I found that a bit odd as well, particularly as some of them are even mentioned in the files...
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So according to that, the PJ and SY are following the same leads? What would happen if they found different perpetrators?
So say SY think it's Mr Blue and the PJ thinks it's Mr Green, there's only circumstantial evidence against both and both police forces with to prosecute?
If I am right about a top flight elite being involved, and backed by a mega powerful, aparantly whiter than white organisation, of immense wealth and standing .... then that is quite possible.
Despite knowledge otherwise, if enough pressure from important enough people (really top flight people ie Untouchables) is put on the PJ, they might decide that the best policy is to do as they are told, rather than how they should. Especially if these people have contrived a method of blaming someone else, with a seemingly sound scenario and seemingly sound evidence.
Money, power, disinformation and propaganda etc might feasibly be able to change right into wrong in the eyes of the masses ... especially if the PJ are 'forced' into backing it 8()(((@#
Guilty into "nothing to do with it" ..... and Innocent (who ever they pick on, poor bloke) into Guilty 8()(((@#
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Radio 5 Live Interview 24/04/2014
Transcript by me.
Rachel Burden:
British police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann , say they are looking at 18 break-ins into villas
on the Algarve by a lone intruder, 6 have come to light following an appeal last month with 5 involving alleged
sexual assaults against young British girls.
Paul Luckman is the publisher of the English newspaper The Portugal News, and has followed this whole story, the
whole investigation over the past few years very closely, morning Paul
Paul Luckman: Good morning
Rachel Burden: So do you think the MET police are genuinely onto something new here?
Paul Luckman:
Umm I think I have to question it, umm we have certainly heard nothing of these cases & anything involving
foreigners comes pretty quickly to our ears, it's inevitable, we are the largest English paper in Portugal, you get to
hear about these things. Umm.. I noticed locally & certainly nationally, none of the national papers have picked up
on this story & they have extremely good police contacts here, I don't think anybody here is taking this seriously,
and you really begin to wonder , err huh, I wonder after all the MET have spent on this case if they are not
looking to almost justify, were looking at what 7 million pounds at the minute.
Rachel Burden:
Yeah so, so Paul just to be clear are you saying that you doubt the reports of these break-ins or..just the fact that they might be connected in some way to Madeleine's disappearance?
Paul Luckman:
Do you know I'm not in a position to say that definitely but there have been no reports on this, umm at any time,
I find this extremely strange, I've searched through all our archives, umm nothing has come to our ears or been
reported.
Rachel Burden:
What about this report of a 10 year old girl back in 2005, in PDL now that's only recent that information, we don’t
know why it’s only come to light recently, there are all sorts of potential explanations, it could be that the child
herself didn’t report it at the the time, They have to look closely at something like that don’t they?
Paul Luckman:
Well, the police will look closely and I think that the attitude, some of the comments that I heard yesterday Umm
I believe will do little to create good relations between the English police & the Portuguese police, who are trying
very hard to get this resolved, they have reopened the case.
Rachel Burden:
Are they cooperating with the Met?
Paul Luckman:
Yes, totally errm this suggestion that they're not, I read headlines in the UK this morning arrests imminent umm complete nonsense, umm, the Met cannot make & I'm sure there not even claiming.....they can't come into
Portugal & make arrests, but you'll remember that we had a situation like this 2 or 3 months ago where there was
mass coverage that they were arriving to make arrests & it just petered into nothing, there was nothing, it was just a regular visit, errm we had a situation where the Met stated that the Portuguese police had not told them about a Cape Verdian who apparently was accused of I think 3 rapes of children & yet we had it directly from the police that infact they had briefed the Met & the McCanns 6 months earlier in Lisbon even with a powerpoint
presentation on this case.
So these things don't do an awful lot to help relations & errm let's see what happens, as I say I'm very surprised there's no coverage at all, not from any of the major daily’s here in Portugal this morning & they are extraordinarily well connected, much more so than ourselves of course, just no mention at all.
Rachel Burden:
Well as you say we'll wait to see what happens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0418mms
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Paul Allen-Luckman, the editor of the Portugal News appears to be very supportive of the PJ in every interview and article I have seen. He is the sort of guy who won't take prisoners or will suffer fools gladly. Makes a refreshing change from British MSM.
So he says he has no knowledge of these attacks but Portuguese News Online published an article about them on 20/3...he sounds as though he hasn't got a clue what is going on
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Splitting hairs though isn't it, rape, abuse, molestation it's all the same thing really isn't.
Ok, if you disagree then replace the word rape with molested, sexually assaulted, abused or nonced (if you really want to upset davel) and it should still have absolouteley no effect on the overall answer to the questions posed.
That answer being an outright No, I wouldn't put up with it.
It doesn't upset me but I think it would upset the child involved...describing their ordeal in these words on a public forum is exactly why the victims keep quiet and may not even report it to their parents never mind the police. perhaps if victims were treated with compassion they may be more willing to come forward.
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It doesn't upset me but I think it would upset the child involved...describing their ordeal in these words on a public forum is exactly why the victims keep quiet and may not even report it to their parents never mind the police. perhaps if victims were treated with compassion they may be more willing to come forward.
It's exactly why is it dave?
really?
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It's exactly why is it dave?
really?
If you cannot see why my explanation won't help
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If you cannot see why my explanation won't help
Exactly why.
Me using various different words to describe an act of sexual abuse on an internet forum is Exactly why the victims keep quiet is it?
8-)(--)
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Exactly why.
Me using various different words to describe an act of sexual abuse on an internet forum is Exactly why the victims keep quiet is it?
8-)(--)
it's in the post
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Paul Luckman (editor of the Portugal Times) says this on the 24th April:
Do you know I'm not in a position to say that definitely but there have been no reports on this, umm at any time,
I find this extremely strange, I've searched through all our archives, umm nothing has come to our ears or been
reported.
And yet his own paper reported this a month earlier:
He (source within the PJ) said that evidence of a string of crimes, including a sexual predator’s activities at coastal resorts popular with holidaymakers in the western Algarve, had in fact been the main driving force behind Portuguese officials deciding to re-open the case.
So, now we have evidence that the Portuguese have been investigating a string of sexual assaults on the Algarve does that mean the originator of this thread is more inclined to believe they did actually happen?
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Paul Luckman (editor of the Portugal Times) says this on the 24th April:
And yet his own paper reported this a month earlier:
So, now we have evidence that the Portuguese have been investigating a string of sexual assaults on the Algarve does that mean the originator of this thread is more inclined to believe they did actually happen?
I can't say that I don't still see reason to doubt.
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I can't say that I don't still see reason to doubt.
That means you think it's possible that SY and the PJ are conspiring to make up stories about sexual assaults. Do you not concede that this would be somewhat far-fetched, or can you see a valid reason why they might have done so?
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That means you think it's possible that SY and the PJ are conspiring to make up stories about sexual assaults. Do you not concede that this would be somewhat far-fetched, or can you see a valid reason why they might have done so?
the originator of this thread has posted that either Redwood or the victims are lying...he now has to add the Portuguese police to his list of liars...who will be next
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That means you think it's possible that SY and the PJ are conspiring to make up stories about sexual assaults. Do you not concede that this would be somewhat far-fetched, or can you see a valid reason why they might have done so?
I think that between them they are certainly capable of stretching the truth, but for what reason I'd have no idea.
I'm struggling to understand how so many assaults could be covered up, unless these assaults weren't considered that serious at the time by all (parents, police, tour companies) concerned.
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I think that between them they are certainly capable of stretching the truth, but for what reason I'd have no idea.
I'm struggling to understand how so many assaults could be covered up, unless these assaults weren't considered that serious at the time by all (parents, police, tour companies) concerned.
Surely you are aware of police not taking sexual assaults seriously, despite the serious nature of these attacks. I'm thinking of the numerous cases of rape of young girls in places like Rochdale for example.
Could a reason why the assaults were not highly publicised be that there was a reluctance on the part of the police and PT media to draw attention to what was going on in a popular holiday destination, especially popular with British tourists, the children of whom were the ones being targeted? Or is that highly unlikely in your view?
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Surely you are aware of police not taking sexual assaults seriously, despite the serious nature of these attacks. I'm thinking of the numerous cases of rape of young girls in places like Rochdale for example.
Could a reason why the assaults were not highly publicised be that there was a reluctance on the part of the police and PT media to draw attention to what was going on in a popular holiday destination, especially popular with British tourists, the children of whom were the ones being targeted? Or is that highly unlikely in your view?
British tourists, none of whom came back to Britain & spoke of their terrible plight, or how after years the PJ still hadn't caught their daughter's attacker.
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British tourists, none of whom came back to Britain & spoke of their terrible plight, or how after years the PJ still hadn't caught their daughter's attacker.
As has been pointed out to you...because people like you sensationalise and criticise their stories ...they tend to keep quiet...you still don't get it...it seems like you are the only one who doesn't
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As has been pointed out to you...because people like you sensationalise and criticise their stories ...they tend to keep quiet...you still don't get it...it seems like you are the only one who doesn't
Would you say nothing if you went on a family holiday & your young daughter had been sexually assaulted in her bed dave?
Would you not even feel compelled to warn other families?
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On balance which seems more likely: that police forces in two countries have conspired to invent a series of sex attacks on the Algarve for reasons unknown OR that the sex attacks occurred, most of which were reported to the police but reports of said attacks were suppressed for reasons unknown?
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On balance which seems more likely: that police forces in two countries have conspired to invent a series of sex attacks on the Algarve for reasons unknown OR that the sex attacks occurred, most of which were reported to the police but reports of said attacks were suppressed for reasons unknown?
And the victims families supressed their outrage aswell, that's the bit I don't get.
As a parent, if my daughter had been sexually assaulted during a family holiday I would find it hard not to scream from the rooftops about how the crime appeared to have been brushed under the carpet.
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And the victims families supressed their outrage aswell, that's the bit I don't get.
As a parent, if my daughter had been sexually assaulted during a family holiday I would find it hard not to scream from the rooftops about how the crime appeared to have been brushed under the carpet.
. Thousands of crimes are "swept under the carpet" or not perhaps as thoroughly investigated as they might be every year. How many People do you see "shouting from the rooftops" about them in the average week? Can you actually explain what form this "shouting from the rooftops " should take, as I assume you don't mean literally shouting from a rooftop.
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thousands of sex crimes, some of them against children, get reported to the police in this country each year. Not every report results in a conviction which must, in theory, mean that they are a growing number of parents out there who feel that justice has not been done for their children. Do we berate them all for not "screaming from the rooftops"? And when they don't "scream from the rooftops" do we assume the sex attacks must have been made up?
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. Thousands of crimes are "swept under the carpet" or not perhaps as thoroughly investigated as they might be every year. How many People do you see "shouting from the rooftops" about them in the average week? Can you actually explain what form this "shouting from the rooftops " should take, as I assume you don't mean literally shouting from a rooftop.
This isn't just any crime though is it, if this is your own young daughter having been assaulted.
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This isn't just any crime though is it, if this is your own young daughter having been assaulted.
Please see my post above.
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thousands of sex crimes, some of them against children, get reported to the police in this country each year. Not every report results in a conviction which must, in theory, mean that they are a growing number of parents out there who feel that justice has not been done for their children. Do we berate them all for not "screaming from the rooftops"? And when they don't "scream from the rooftops" do we assume the sex attacks must have been made up?
Do we berate them all for not "screaming from the rooftops"?
If it were me who's child had been assaulted, I wouldn't keep quiet.
And in this particular case the parents silence on the matter hasn't done other victims any favours has it.
You might not wish to criticise that, I have.
And when they don't "scream from the rooftops" do we assume the sex attacks must have been made up?
I have to question why they didn't make a song and dance about them, given that I would.
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Do we berate them all for not "screaming from the rooftops"?
If it were me who's child had been assaulted, I wouldn't keep quiet.
And in this particular case the parents silence on the matter hasn't done other victims any favours has it.
You might not wish to criticise that, I have.
And when they don't "scream from the rooftops" do we assume the sex attacks must have been made up?
I have to question why they didn't make a song and dance about them, given that I would.
Please describe how you would "not keep quiet" after reporting the crime to the police.
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Please describe how you would "not keep quiet" after reporting the crime to the police.
Cariad talked of respecting childrens rights...victims of sex attacks have a right to anonymity....should a parent violate that right by shouting from the rooftops
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Cariad talked of respecting childrens rights...victims of sex attacks have a right to anonymity....should a parent violate that right by shouting from the rooftops
I don't know why you wish to drag me in to this argument. But since you insist:
My response to the idea that a child is at all responsible for his/her own abuse or that of subsequent victims can be found on page 3 or 4 of this thread, but it short, no a child is never responsible.
As to WS's later posts about all the adults involved having a responsibility to stop it happening to anyone, I have mixed feelings.
Yes, adults need to protect children. It was the parents responsibility to report it to the police and the polices responsibility to make an arrest.
Over the last couple of pages WS has made some sense. If there was a cover up and if people who could alter the situation kept quiet, they are guilty too.
If the parent weren't aware that there had been other incidents though, they would probably be more concerned with their own child's welfare and recovery.
I don't think getting the press involved would've helped in the slightest. I think that it would've put the victims at risk of further harm by exposing them to all kinds of crap. Including the crap we're posting here.
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And the victims families supressed their outrage aswell, that's the bit I don't get.
As a parent, if my daughter had been sexually assaulted during a family holiday I would find it hard not to scream from the rooftops about how the crime appeared to have been brushed under the carpet.
How do you know that some parents didn’t actually “scream from the rooftops”?
We have no information about what happened to those reports given to the police in Portugal at the time and what action or inaction occurred as a result.
We don't know if parents thought the assault was being investigated or 'brushed under the carpet'. It would be fair to assume the parents would think their case was unique in the lack of information to the contrary.
That the British consul was able to give Dr McCann information about home invasion and assaults on British children suggests to me that there had been efforts made by the parents of the victims to have this man apprehended.
Perhaps the consulate were informed by the GNR, although I have no idea if Portuguese secrecy laws would have allowed sharing this information.
Perhaps the consulate were informed by British police who were acting on information received from returning holidaymakers anxious to ascertain how their daughter’s case was being progressed in Portugal.
Perhaps the consulate was contacted by parents frustrated that no action was being taken and who did suspect or know their child's case was being 'swept under the carpet'. We just don't know.
I do not believe you really know exactly how you would react were your child violated in a foreign country.
“Screaming from the rooftops” would probably not take into consideration the additional psychological trauma you might impose on the victim.
Your implicit criticism of victims without knowing the full circumstances of each case IMO serves only to deter people with information coming forward in the face of such censure.
Bad enough to have been attacked, worse to be condemned because a crime which you reported at the time was not investigated.
So unless you are in full possession of all the facts please do not project what your actions would have been in a given situation onto the people most affected by the crime, I don’t think you would know what you would do until it happened to you.
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I don't know why you wish to drag me in to this argument. But since you insist:
My response to the idea that a child is at all responsible for his/her own abuse or that of subsequent victims can be found on page 3 or 4 of this thread, but it short, no a child is never responsible.
As to WS's later posts about all the adults involved having a responsibility to stop it happening to anyone, I have mixed feelings.
Yes, adults need to protect children. It was the parents responsibility to report it to the police and the polices responsibility to make an arrest.
Over the last couple of pages WS has made some sense. If there was a cover up and if people who could alter the situation kept quiet, they are guilty too.
If the parent weren't aware that there had been other incidents though, they would probably be more concerned with their own child's welfare and recovery.
I don't think getting the press involved would've helped in the slightest. I think that it would've put the victims at risk of further harm by exposing them to all kinds of crap. Including the crap we're posting here.
Agreed, Cariad, and it is perfectly possible some parents were not made aware at the time what had happened.
These are complex issues to which everyone reacts differently, and I don't even want to think about the damage which may have been caused to these children as they grew into their formative years.
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Reading between the lines there appears to be evidence that at least some of these attacks were reported to police and the British authorities in Portugal.
Are we now saying that both conspired to keep this information from the public at large and in doing so contributed to the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann?
If true, this is indeed a serious indictment!
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Reading between the lines there appears to be evidence that at least some of these attacks were reported to police and the British authorities in Portugal.
Are we now saying that both conspired to keep this information from the public at large and in doing so contributed to the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann?
Conspiracy requires collusion between two or more parties. Failing to publicise this information may just have been simply a failure to do anything with the details available to them.
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Reading between the lines there appears to be evidence that at least some of these attacks were reported to police and the British authorities in Portugal.
Are we now saying that both conspired to keep this information from the public at large and in doing so contributed to the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann?
If true, this is indeed a serious indictment!
Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.
The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children
It was good of the British Consul to tell the McCanns, but not bother to mention it to the public wasn't it.
They waited for her to write about it in 2011, rather than doing anything themselves.
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Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.
The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children
It was good of the British Consul to tell the McCanns, but not bother to mention it to the public wasn't it.
They waited for her to write about it in 2011, rather than doing anything themselves.
At the time of being given the information Dr McCann was bound by Portuguese secrecy laws which prevented her discussing the case under investigation.
Why do you suppose it was the responsibility of Dr McCann whose own daughter had been the victim of a heinous crime, to take action on these cases?
Don't you think that should properly have been the responsibility of the authorities?
In the interim, after Dr McCann publicised the events in 2011, do you know what action was taken by the people with the power to do something about it?
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At the time of being given the information Dr McCann was bound by Portuguese secrecy laws which prevented her discussing the case under investigation.
Why do you suppose it was the responsibility of Dr McCann whose own daughter had been the victim of a heinous crime, to take action on these cases?
Don't you think that should properly have been the responsibility of the authorities?
In the interim, after Dr McCann publicised the events in 2011, do you know what action was taken by the people with the power to do something about it?
Why do you suppose it was the responsibility of Dr McCann
I don't, you misunderstood, I worded that badly sorry, I meant the British Authorities, what did they say?
That's right, Nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nothing was what they said, nothing.
British Holiday makers, heading for the Algarve with there precious little daughters in tow, were told nothing.
Nothing.
The British authorities knew that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children"
& that
"What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted...
And the sum total of things the British authorities had to say to the public on the issue was...nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing.
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Why do you suppose it was the responsibility of Dr McCann
I don't, you misunderstood, I worded that badly sorry, I meant the British Authorities, what did they say?
That's right, Nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nothing was what they said, nothing.
British Holiday makers, heading for the Algarve with there precious little daughters in tow were told nothing.
Nothing.
The British authorities knew that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children"
"What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted...
And the sum total of things the British authorities had to say to the public on the issue was...nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing.
For all your offensive wummery (by your own admission), I think you're actually sincere on this point.
I'm sure any affected family would have preferred to have known that there was a serial abuser on the loose. However, the diplomatic service is supposed to be... diplomatic. They can't go around issuing warnings to potential visitors to a foreign country in the absence of a major threat of potentially uncontrollable dimensions (usually civil war, terrorism, etc.). A Portuguese consul or ambassador wouldn't go around telling everyone to avoid the UK because Moat was on the loose, for example, nor because knifers in London might attack Portuguese citizens.
IMO, the real culprits are the predator (perhaps more than one) and what so far seems to have been a lack of any serious investigation into this by the Algarve police forces until recently.
This selective "judicial secrecy" has meant that crimes are only reported when the police have been successful in arresting someone for a crime. However, the same Algarve police were leaking daily with half-truths about the McCanns... To this day, some people refuse (or pretend not) to accept that any crimes against children ever happened in this popular tourist destination.
The Oporto PJ have managed to reopen the case, presumably based on potential leads that were never adequately followed up. Whether or not a connection can be established between these other crimes and Madeleine's disappearance remains to be seen.
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For all your offensive wummery (by your own admission), I think you're actually sincere on this point.
That's correct, I'm pretty bloody horrified that so many adults, on all sides, who knew, decided that the best course of action to take would be that they just said nothing.
And then ....nothing more.... was said.
Nothing.
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Why do you suppose it was the responsibility of Dr McCann
I don't, you misunderstood, I worded that badly sorry, I meant the British Authorities, what did they say?
That's right, Nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nothing was what they said, nothing.
British Holiday makers, heading for the Algarve with there precious little daughters in tow, were told nothing.
Nothing.
The British authorities knew that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children"
& that
"What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted...
And the sum total of things the British authorities had to say to the public on the issue was...nothing.
Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Sorry if my answer was a bit aggressive WS, but I am aware that Dr McCann was subjected to some online abuse over that part of her book and was disbelieved by some.
I think that we are in agreement that it is the authorities who are ultimately responsible for public safety. 8((()*/
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For all your offensive wummery (by your own admission), I think you're actually sincere on this point.
That's correct, I'm pretty bloody horrified that so many adults, on all sides, who knew, decided that the best course of action to take would be that they just said nothing.
And then ....nothing more.... was said.
Nothing.
But you haven't addressed the points I raised...
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Sorry if my answer was a bit aggressive WS, but I am aware that Dr McCann was subjected to some online abuse over that part of her book and was disbelieved by some.
I think that we are in agreement that it is the authorities who are ultimately responsible for public safety. 8((()*/
None taken.
that part of her book and was disbelieved by some.
IMO that's because it's hard to believe that those people who knew, authorities, tour operators etc etc etc , decided they would just say nothing.
Had it been me who knew under any circumstances, I would definitely have said.....something.
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None taken.
that part of her book and was disbelieved by some.
IMO that's because it's hard to believe that those people who knew, authorities, tour operators etc etc etc , decided they would just say nothing.
Had it been me who knew under any circumstances, I would definitely have said.....something.
Take a step back for a moment. None of these families may have been aware that there was a serial creep out there. Many had reported the incidents to the police - who were legitimately entitled to believe were investigating these cases and seemingly weren't aware that he'd attacked other families.
Your first instinct (shouting from the rooftops) is understandable, but may not be the best idea if you were trying to help the police catch this creep. You wouldn't have wanted him to go underground, would you? How would that have helped?
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Take a step back for a moment. None of these families may have been aware that there was a serial creep out there. Many had reported the incidents to the police - who they were legitimately entitled to believe were investigating these cases and seemingly weren't aware that he'd attacked other families.
Your first instinct (shouting from the rooftops) is understandable, but may not be the best idea if you were trying to help the police catch this creep. You wouldn't have wanted him to go underground, would you? How would that have helped?
None of these families may have been aware that there was a serial creep out there.
While the British authorities apparenty were and they decided they would just say nothing .
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None of these families may have been aware that there was a serial creep out there.
While the British authorities apparenty were and they decided they would just say nothing .
who said they said nothing...it was the Portuguese police who should have investigating them...they are not even doing that now...SY are waiting for their cooperation to start looking for him...the portuguese aint helping
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who said they said nothing...it was the Portuguese police who should have investigating them...they are not even doing that now...SY are waiting for their cooperation to start looking for him...the portuguese aint helping
who said they said nothing.
Me just then because I didn't hear them say anything. Did you?
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who said they said nothing.
Me just then because I didn't hear them say anthing. Did you?
You don't make any sense
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None taken.
that part of her book and was disbelieved by some.
IMO that's because it's hard to believe that those people who knew, authorities, tour operators etc etc etc , decided they would just say nothing.
Had it been me who knew under any circumstances, I would definitely have said.....something.
You and many others I feel. I wonder why the tour operator was not sued under duty of care when the barrel was full?
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When Kate McCann's book first came out and these revelations about sex attacks on children were first widely circulated, they were soundly condemned by virtually all McCann doubters as a McCann invention. It seems quite certain now that with the recent statements from Scotland Yard and sources close to the PJ about these attacks that Kate McCann was NOT lying and deserves not only an apology for this repeated slur from certain quarters but also to be commended for highlighting these serious offences. Of course she will receive neither apology nor commendation from those that are so vociferously against her, poor woman.
Cue the LOL emoticons...
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I didn't start the thread, I made one comment, someone else turned it into a thread.
how would you describe it?
Pretty bad indeed but not as bad as kids being defiled, adults knowing, and then nothing being said about.
I would suggest that if you really are as outraged about this as you seem to be that you complain to the UK Consul in Portugal, and anyone else you can identify as being culpable in this apparent cover-up - how about the PJ, for example, who don't appear to have pulled out the stops to find the sex offender(s)??
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When Kate McCann's book first came out and these revelations about sex attacks on children were first widely circulated, they were soundly condemned by virtually all McCann doubters as a McCann invention. It seems quite certain now that with the recent statements from Scotland Yard and sources close to the PJ about these attacks that Kate McCann was NOT lying and deserves not only an apology for this repeated slur from certain quarters but also to be commended for highlighting these serious offences. Of course she will receive neither apology nor commendation from those that are so vociferously against her, poor woman.
Cue the LOL emoticons...
I apologise & commend Kate for having highlighted this string of sexual assaults on children, especially since no one else bothered to apparently.
There, I've said it.
But that's all she's getting out of me.
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I apologise & commend Kate for having highlighted this string of sexual assaults on children, especially since no one else bothered to apparently.
There, I've said it.
But that's all she's getting out of me.
I'm sure that has just made her day.
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I'm sure that has just made her day.
Perhaps this is one of the raesons the PJ don't want SY investigating....they may discover just how much crime the PJ have ignored