UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: ISpyWithMyEye on April 03, 2020, 07:59:23 AM
-
There’s been much talk about Sheila asking her doctor to reduce the amount of Haloperidol due to the severe side-effects.
I don’t know if anyone has proof that the drug was reduced, but the pathologist who carried out the post mortem on Sheila discovered that besides Sheila’s toxicology reports showing NO illegal drugs at all — except for a small trace of cannabis that he said she would have smoked approximately four days prior to being murdered, there were no other drugs, prescribed or otherwise in her system. She’d also run out of the drug that helped counteract the effects of the Haloperidol, so the debilitating effects of the H were extreme.
Interestingly, the toxicology tests showed that she actually had an UNUSUALLY HIGH level of Haloperidol in her system, so as she was administered the injection by her doctor or nurse, I wonder if they accidentally INCREASED the dosage, hence why she could barely walk...
It was reported by all witnesses that she was walking slowly and stiffly like a zombie; was extremely slow in all movements; was shaky and trembling; appeared quiet, listless, tired and distant, and didn’t have energy to play in the garden with the twins. In fact, it seems she barely had energy to SPEAK.
You’ll find this fact on page 48 of Colin Caffell’s book “In Search of the Rainbow’s End’
This blows all those rumours of Sheila having a much smaller dose of Haloperidol in her system right out the water. Because she didn’t. She actually had more than usual.
So given how the drug rendered her like someone with severe Parkinson’s Disease I’d like to know how they think she could have beaten and rugby tackled Nevill to a pulp who was fit, strong as a bull, 6”4” and must have been overcome with adrenaline to fight for his life?
And now it’s transpired June was attacked too (though not as violently as Nevill) it’s obvious that both Nevill and June tried to fight Jeremy off by the bedroom door/landing...
My main question is: did the doctor/nurse accidentally give her an increased amount of Haloperidol and either didn’t realise their mistake, or hushed it up?
-
What counts as an unusually high level of Haloperidol and where is this recorded?
-
There’s been much talk about Sheila asking her doctor to reduce the amount of Haloperidol due to the severe side-effects.
I don’t know if anyone has proof that the drug was reduced, but the pathologist who carried out the post mortem on Sheila discovered that besides Sheila’s toxicology reports showing NO illegal drugs at all — except for a small trace of cannabis that he said she would have smoked approximately four days prior to being murdered, there were no other drugs, prescribed or otherwise in her system. She’d also run out of the drug that helped counteract the effects of the Haloperidol, so the debilitating effects of the H were extreme.
Interestingly, the toxicology tests showed that she actually had an UNUSUALLY HIGH level of Haloperidol in her system, so as she was administered the injection by her doctor or nurse, I wonder if they accidentally INCREASED the dosage, hence why she could barely walk...
It was reported by all witnesses that she was walking slowly and stiffly like a zombie; was extremely slow in all movements; was shaky and trembling; appeared quiet, listless, tired and distant, and didn’t have energy to play in the garden with the twins. In fact, it seems she barely had energy to SPEAK.
You’ll find this fact on page 48 of Colin Caffell’s book “In Search of the Rainbow’s End’
This blows all those rumours of Sheila having a much smaller dose of Haloperidol in her system right out the water. Because she didn’t. She actually had more than usual.
So given how the drug rendered her like someone with severe Parkinson’s Disease I’d like to know how they think she could have beaten and rugby tackled Nevill to a pulp who was fit, strong as a bull, 6”4” and must have been overcome with adrenaline to fight for his life?
And now it’s transpired June was attacked too (though not as violently as Nevill) it’s obvious that both Nevill and June tried to fight Jeremy off by the bedroom door/landing...
My main question is: did the doctor/nurse accidentally give her an increased amount of Haloperidol and either didn’t realise their mistake, or hushed it up?
I don't think that's quite correct. Sheila was injected with 200mg of Haloperidol prior to leaving St Andrews. She found this dose to be too high for her to function. She requested that the dosage be lowered. Her GP wrote to Dr Ferguson who agreed a reduction of 50mg, however, there seems to have been a communication problem which ended with a locum injecting her with 100mg. The pathologist actually said she had a moderate amount of it in her system. She was due another a week after her death. There are statements covering all of this.
-
Sheila has a 'moderate' dose in her system after death.
-
What counts as an unusually high level of Haloperidol and where is this recorded?
It was a comment from Colin.
-
It was a comment from Colin.
Ah yes. He was misinformed, it seems.
-
There’s been much talk about Sheila asking her doctor to reduce the amount of Haloperidol due to the severe side-effects.
I don’t know if anyone has proof that the drug was reduced, but the pathologist who carried out the post mortem on Sheila discovered that besides Sheila’s toxicology reports showing NO illegal drugs at all — except for a small trace of cannabis that he said she would have smoked approximately four days prior to being murdered, there were no other drugs, prescribed or otherwise in her system. She’d also run out of the drug that helped counteract the effects of the Haloperidol, so the debilitating effects of the H were extreme.
Interestingly, the toxicology tests showed that she actually had an UNUSUALLY HIGH level of Haloperidol in her system, so as she was administered the injection by her doctor or nurse, I wonder if they accidentally INCREASED the dosage, hence why she could barely walk...
It was reported by all witnesses that she was walking slowly and stiffly like a zombie; was extremely slow in all movements; was shaky and trembling; appeared quiet, listless, tired and distant, and didn’t have energy to play in the garden with the twins. In fact, it seems she barely had energy to SPEAK.
You’ll find this fact on page 48 of Colin Caffell’s book “In Search of the Rainbow’s End’
This blows all those rumours of Sheila having a much smaller dose of Haloperidol in her system right out the water. Because she didn’t. She actually had more than usual.
So given how the drug rendered her like someone with severe Parkinson’s Disease I’d like to know how they think she could have beaten and rugby tackled Nevill to a pulp who was fit, strong as a bull, 6”4” and must have been overcome with adrenaline to fight for his life?
And now it’s transpired June was attacked too (though not as violently as Nevill) it’s obvious that both Nevill and June tried to fight Jeremy off by the bedroom door/landing...
My main question is: did the doctor/nurse accidentally give her an increased amount of Haloperidol and either didn’t realise their mistake, or hushed it up?
Forensic scientist Alexander Allan confirmed the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood sample was 15 nanograms (ng) per millilitre (ml) :
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.msg2233#msg2233
15 ng per ml is considered low within the medium range:
Low = 2 to 13 ng/ml
Med = 13.1 to 24 ng/ml
High = 24.2 to 35 ng/ml
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/495707
I'm not sure if the prosecution claimed at trial SC's level of Haloperidol rendered her incapable of what the defence claimed but if it did a pharmacologist would soon put it right.
-
Forensic scientist Alexander Allan confirmed the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood sample was 15 nanograms (ng) per millilitre (ml) :
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.msg2233#msg2233
15 ng per ml is considered low within the medium range:
Low = 2 to 13 ng/ml
Med = 13.1 to 24 ng/ml
High = 24.2 to 35 ng/ml
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/495707
I'm not sure if the prosecution claimed at trial SC's level of Haloperidol rendered her incapable of what the defence claimed but if it did a pharmacologist would soon put it right.
YOu keep playing it down but get away from it, the level was in the medium range at a time when her next injection was due. This proves that the drug builds up in the system and doesn't disappear when the next dose is due. No one has yet posted a case when there was a psychotic attack by a medicated individual.
-
What counts as an unusually high level of Haloperidol and where is this recorded?
I already sai, G-Unit
It’s in Colin Caffell’s book — page 48
-
I already sai, G-Unit
It’s in Colin Caffell’s book — page 48
Colin was wrong.
-
I don't think that's quite correct. Sheila was injected with 200mg of Haloperidol prior to leaving St Andrews. She found this dose to be too high for her to function. She requested that the dosage be lowered. Her GP wrote to Dr Ferguson who agreed a reduction of 50mg, however, there seems to have been a communication problem which ended with a locum injecting her with 100mg. The pathologist actually said she had a moderate amount of it in her system. She was due another a week after her death. There are statements covering all of this.
Yes, I read that too, April
However, since then, I’ve now read what Colin stated: he said that the post mortem toxicology reports “showed an unusually high level of Haloperidol”
I know Sheila had asked for it to be reduced, and seemingly it was, but why did her system show an unusually high level of it? Colin would know more than anyone what the post mortem showed.
Doctors DO make mistakes, and Sheila had little faith in her psychiatrist. He was based in Harley Street and it’s well-known that although you can find some of the top specialists there, you’ll also find total quacks who rent rooms twice a week, and charge through the nose for treatments that aren’t as good as the NHS.
Slightly off topic, but her psychiatrist also said Sheila had “mild schizophrenia “. I thought you either had schizophrenia or you didn’t...in the same way you’re not “mildly pregnant”.
Going by what I’ve read of Sheila, and obviously I didn’t know her, nor am I a psychiatrist, but I’ve always wondered if she was misdiagnosed. I’m not convinced she was a schizophrenic, but I could be wrong, of course.
-
Ah yes. He was misinformed, it seems.
You’re ASSUMING he was misinformed...
He’d know more than you would.
-
YOu keep playing it down but get away from it, the level was in the medium range at a time when her next injection was due. This proves that the drug builds up in the system and doesn't disappear when the next dose is due. No one has yet posted a case when there was a psychotic attack by a medicated individual.
The information is clear and objective Caroline.
The level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15ng/ml
A medium dose is considered 13.1 to 24 ng/ml therefore it is clear SC's dosage at TOD was low within the medium range.
The dosage doesn't build up in the system.
-
The information is clear and objective Caroline.
The level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15ng/ml
A medium dose is considered 13.1 to 24 ng/ml therefore it is clear SC's dosage at TOD was low within the medium range.
The dosage doesn't build up in the system.
You need a cite for that.
-
Forensic scientist Alexander Allan confirmed the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood sample was 15 nanograms (ng) per millilitre (ml) :
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.msg2233#msg2233
15 ng per ml is considered low within the medium range:
Low = 2 to 13 ng/ml
Med = 13.1 to 24 ng/ml
High = 24.2 to 35 ng/ml
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/495707
I'm not sure if the prosecution claimed at trial SC's level of Haloperidol rendered her incapable of what the defence claimed but if it did a pharmacologist would soon put it right.
So, that means Sheila had a medium range amount of Haloperidol in her system, and slow-release medication delivers the same level of drug easy day, I believe.
I’m not a pharmacologist, but maybe the one who tested Sheila’s blood was surprised at the levels, given that she’d asked for it to be reduced to the severe side-effects.
I also believe maximum dosage is 20mg a day, so those figures showing the quantity in Sheila’s blood suggest she certainly wasn’t on a low dose if she fell into the medium range. We also know as a fact that Sheila’s movements were prohibited, so much so she could barely walk, so regardless of the amount she was administered it clearly rendered her unable to coordinate, walk properly, or even move without jerking.
I am sure this would have been brought up in the trial: it would have had to of been.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
So, that means Sheila had a medium range amount of Haloperidol in her system, and slow-release medication delivers the same level of drug easy day, I believe.
I’m not a pharmacologist, but maybe the one who tested Sheila’s blood was surprised at the levels, given that she’d asked for it to be reduced to the severe side-effects.
I also believe maximum dosage is 20mg a day, so those figures showing the quantity in Sheila’s blood suggest she certainly wasn’t on a low dose if she fell into the medium range. We also know as a fact that Sheila’s movements were prohibited, so much so she could barely walk, so regardless of the amount she was administered it clearly rendered her unable to coordinate, walk properly, or even move without jerking.
I am sure this would have been brought up in the trial: it would have had to of been.
Sheila was probably more uncoordinated on some days than others. On the afternoon before the murders, she was seen skipping along with the twins, so she was certainly able to walk at that time. She is also said to have visited a shop with June and the twins, to buy jeans for the boys.
-
Colin was wrong.
I believe Colin over YOU!
He had no reason to say that!
It’s quite feasible that the doctor told Colin the levels of Haloperidol were unusually high in Sheila’s system, considering she was due her next injection relatively soon.
Colin wouldn’t say “unusually high” unless he’d been told that, he’s not a pathological liar like Jeremy Bamber
Regardless, the facts ARE Sheila was debilitated by that drug. So much so she could hardly walk.
You just don’t like to believe it because it bursts your little bubble...
-
I believe Colin over YOU!
He had no reason to say that!
It’s quite feasible that the doctor told Colin the levels of Haloperidol were unusually high in Sheila’s system, considering she was due her next injection relatively soon.
Colin wouldn’t say “unusually high” unless he’d been told that, he’s not a pathological liar like Jeremy Bamber
Regardless, the facts ARE Sheila was debilitated by that drug. So much so she could hardly walk.
You just don’t like to believe it because it bursts your little bubble...
It's not me you are disbelieving, it's those who tested the amounts of Haloperidol in Sheila's body and testified to the courts about the results.
-
Sheila was probably more uncoordinated on some days than others. On the afternoon before the murders, she was seen skipping along with the twins, so she was certainly able to walk at that time. She is also said to have visited a shop with June and the twins, to buy jeans for the boys.
She wasn’t seen skipping — that was June
Sheila was seen walking with the twins’ and Crispy; she was walking stiffly and slowly
-
It's not me you are disbelieving, it's those who tested the amounts of Haloperidol in Sheila's body and testified to the courts about the results.
You’ve not understood the significance
Colin said that the pathologist told HIM Sheila had an “unusually large amount” of Haloperidol in her system going by what her doctor had supposedly prescribed
Do you understand that now?
-
You’ve not understood the significance
Colin said that the pathologist told HIM Sheila had an “unusually large amount” of Haloperidol in her system going by what her doctor had supposedly prescribed
Do you understand that now?
Where is it documented the pathologist even spoke with CC let alone told CC SC had an unusually large amount of Haloperidol. In her system?
-
You’ve not understood the significance
Colin said that the pathologist told HIM Sheila had an “unusually large amount” of Haloperidol in her system going by what her doctor had supposedly prescribed
Do you understand that now?
You say the pathologist told Colin. Please tell me where I can find evidence upholding your statement.
-
The information is clear and objective Caroline.
The level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15ng/ml
A medium dose is considered 13.1 to 24 ng/ml therefore it is clear SC's dosage at TOD was low within the medium range.
The dosage doesn't build up in the system.
My mother has vascular dementia and she was prescribed haloperidol at one point - it completely floored her and in the end, I stopped giving it to her, the notes that came with the drug stated that it would take around six weeks to clear from the system. Sometimes Holly practical knowledge of something is worth it's weight in gold.
-
My mother has vascular dementia and she was prescribed haloperidol at one point - it completely floored her and in the end, I stopped giving it to her, the notes that came with the drug stated that it would take around six weeks to clear from the system. Sometimes Holly practical knowledge of something is worth it's weight in gold.
Anecdotal evidence isn't required in this case.
We have clear evidence from Alexander Allen about the level of Haloperidol in SC's system at tod which is consistent with a moderate dose at the extreme low end of moderate.
-
Anecdotal evidence isn't required in this case.
We have clear evidence from Alexander Allen about the level of Haloperidol in SC's system at tod which is consistent with a moderate dose at the extreme low end of moderate.
It was measured in the blood serum not the organs such as brain and liver. Levels of haloperidol has been shown to remain in brain tissue once administration has been stopped...
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.6.885 (https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.6.885)
-
It was measured in the blood serum not the organs such as brain and liver. Levels of haloperidol has been shown to remain in brain tissue once administration has been stopped...
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.6.885 (https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.6.885)
It was measured in blood and liver:
Liver = 0.55 microgram per gram
Blood = 15 nsnograms per millilitre
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
Was any evidence presented at trial re SC being uncoordinated/overdosed? I doubt it as the only person qualified to answer such would be a pharmacologist and I don't believe one was called at trial?
-
It was measured in blood and liver:
Liver = 0.55 microgram per gram
Blood = 15 nsnograms per millilitre
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750)
Was any evidence presented at trial re SC being uncoordinated/overdosed? I doubt it as the only person qualified to answer such would be a pharmacologist and I don't believe one was called at trial?
No idea. But the fact that haloperidol can be present in the brain in much greater concentrations than in the circulatory system (or liver where it's metabolised) shows, to me, that people who were familiar with Sheila and her illness witnessed the adverse effects it was having on her hand/eye co-ordination and gait.
-
No idea. But the fact that haloperidol can be present in the brain in much greater concentrations than in the circulatory system (or liver where it's metabolised) shows, to me, that people who were familiar with Sheila and her illness witnessed the adverse effects it was having on her hand/eye co-ordination and gait.
Where's the evidence Haloperidol can be present in the brain in much greater concentrations than tests reveal in the blood and liver?
What would be the point in testing the blood and liver if it is at odds with the brain?
What evidence exists from professionals that SC had problems with her coordination?
Her GP said she complained of tiredness and sleepiness.
As such the dose was halved.
I note she was also prescribed Tridulan for hay fever which can bring on the side effects SC complained of.
I recall taking Tridulan for prickly heat on an 18 - 30's holiday to Tenerife during the 80's and kept falling asleep in night clubs before midnight 8(8-))
-
Anecdotal evidence isn't required in this case.
We have clear evidence from Alexander Allen about the level of Haloperidol in SC's system at tod which is consistent with a moderate dose at the extreme low end of moderate.
Yes, she still had a moderate dose. Extreme?
-
Forensic scientist Alexander Allan confirmed the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood sample was 15 nanograms (ng) per millilitre (ml) :
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.msg2233#msg2233
15 ng per ml is considered low within the medium range:
Low = 2 to 13 ng/ml
Med = 13.1 to 24 ng/ml
High = 24.2 to 35 ng/ml
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/495707
I'm not sure if the prosecution claimed at trial SC's level of Haloperidol rendered her incapable of what the defence claimed but if it did a pharmacologist would soon put it right.
From the article you linked to;
• This study explored the relationships between plasma levels and the clinical effects of haloperidol in 176 acutely exacerbated schizophrenic or schizoaffective patients. After a single-blind placebo period of 1 week (period 1), they entered the double-blind period 2 randomly assigned to one of three plasma levels of haloperidol: low (2 to 13 ng/mL), medium (13.1 to 24 ng/mL), or high (24.1 to 35 ng/mL). Patients whose conditions did not improve in period 2 continued on one of the three haloperidol levels (period 3). Periods 2 and 3 lasted 6 weeks each. Only minor differences in clinical responses were noted among the three levels of haloperidol. These results imply that low or moderate doses of neuroleptics are appropriate for many acutely psychotic patients.
-
She wasn’t seen skipping — that was June
Sheila was seen walking with the twins’ and Crispy; she was walking stiffly and slowly
That isn't what I read. Please provide a quote. Thanks.
-
Where is it documented the pathologist even spoke with CC let alone told CC SC had an unusually large amount of Haloperidol. In her system?
It came from the horse’s mouth, Holly
Colin, who SPOKE with the pathologist, was told by him that Sheila had “unusually high levels” of Haloperidol in her system. Now, whether that means they were unusually high due to her asking for a reduced dose, I have no idea. But that’s what Colin says — in his book — page 48.
It’s there in black and white.
Holly, for someone who believes every word a convicted mass murderer comes out with, its very strange that you disbelieve others. That suggests to me you’re mistrusting, yet you trust and believe a proven liar, a thief, a drug dealer, and a mass murderer who to this day refuses to admit his guilt despite all the overwhelming evidence....
Strange!
-
You say the pathologist told Colin. Please tell me where I can find evidence upholding your statement.
I’ve ALREADY told you!
-
Anecdotal evidence isn't required in this case.
We have clear evidence from Alexander Allen about the level of Haloperidol in SC's system at tod which is consistent with a moderate dose at the extreme low end of moderate.
The levels were in the MEDIUM range, Holly
Stop copying Jeremy Bamber’s sly trick of trying to twist/distort/exaggerate/underwhelm things — it’s so obvious what you’re trying to do
The fact is, the Haloperidol in Sheila’s system was in the medium range. The pathologist told Colin it was “unusually high”. I’ve explained to you why that might have been: perhaps Sheila hadn’t been given the reduced dosage she’d asked for...
Regardless, she did indeed have the drug in her system, and it did indeed incapacitate her. She could barely SIT UP from a chair!
You are demeaning Sheila and trying to make her look like the culprit when it’s been PROVEN in a court of law that Jeremy Bamber is a an evil, vile mass murderer! Those are the words of the judge, and everyone KNOWS what he is, so for you to try and twist facts by suggesting a Sheila murdered her two children and parents’ is so, so low...
-
That isn't what I read. Please provide a quote. Thanks.
I’ve said REPEATEDLY where it can be found, so I suggest you get off your butt and look.
Sheila could BARELY walk that day.
-
Sheila was probably more uncoordinated on some days than others. On the afternoon before the murders, she was seen skipping along with the twins, so she was certainly able to walk at that time. She is also said to have visited a shop with June and the twins, to buy jeans for the boys.
The effects of the drug don’t change day to day...🙄
-
My mother has vascular dementia and she was prescribed haloperidol at one point - it completely floored her and in the end, I stopped giving it to her, the notes that came with the drug stated that it would take around six weeks to clear from the system. Sometimes Holly practical knowledge of something is worth it's weight in gold.
I’m sorry to hear that, Caroline — that must be awful
It’s good, though, that you’re able to explain to these unknowledgeable people just how severe Haloperidol is, and the terrible side-effects it has.
-
It was measured in blood and liver:
Liver = 0.55 microgram per gram
Blood = 15 nsnograms per millilitre
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
Was any evidence presented at trial re SC being uncoordinated/overdosed? I doubt it as the only person qualified to answer such would be a pharmacologist and I don't believe one was called at trial?
How could Sheila have overdosed?!
She was given monthly injections, Holly.
She hated the drug, too...as you should know considering the extreme interest you have in Jeremy Bamber and his fruitless attempts at trying to get out of prison.
I don’t know what your true interest is, but I tell you this...you’ve wasted YEARS trying to prove ludicrous points that are always disproven in a flash. And you’ll waste MIRE years too, because he will NEVER be released. Ever. The only time he’ll be let out of jail is in a body bag. He will die in prison, where he belongs. And even then you won’t be able to visit his grave because the authorities will cremated him in secret, just as they did Myra Hindley, and then the ashes will be put somewhere so no-one has the misfortune of ever being near them.
He is evil to the CORE.
-
Where's the evidence Haloperidol can be present in the brain in much greater concentrations than tests reveal in the blood and liver?
What would be the point in testing the blood and liver if it is at odds with the brain?
What evidence exists from professionals that SC had problems with her coordination?
Her GP said she complained of tiredness and sleepiness.
As such the dose was halved.
I note she was also prescribed Tridulan for hay fever which can bring on the side effects SC complained of.
I recall taking Tridulan for prickly heat on an 18 - 30's holiday to Tenerife during the 80's and kept falling asleep in night clubs before midnight 8(8-))
Holly, Sheila was prescribed Tridulan in APRIL — that’s the usual hay fever season.
She wasn’t prescribed it in August as she obviously wasn’t suffering from Hay Fever, so we don’t need your anecdotal notes when we have her GP’s official notes.
It also says she was given Haloperidol INJECTIONS, so your suggestion of an overdose is absurd.
Furthermore, all GP’s write down brief notes when diagnosing and prescribing treatments. To make life easy and quicker, they jot down just a couple of symptoms the patient complains of, otherwise they’d be there all day writing...
It sufficed for him to just write two of Sheila’s symptoms, which in those days were small little cards. Much easier to jot down:
Tiredness/Sleepiness rather than:
Sleepiness
Tiredness
Listless
Aching muscles
Stiffness of movement
Trembling
Shakiness
Lack of coordination
Blurred vision
Dizziness
Lethargy
Tremors
GP’s aren’t writing for Greys Anatomy when jotting down why they’re prescribing drugs...
Sheila complained about all her severe symptoms, and people, including friends/family/acquaintances/neighbours/shopkeepers/strangers ALL said Sheila could barely walk on the day she was murdered.
Move on now, eh?
-
Where's the evidence Haloperidol can be present in the brain in much greater concentrations than tests reveal in the blood and liver?
What would be the point in testing the blood and liver if it is at odds with the brain?
What evidence exists from professionals that SC had problems with her coordination?
Her GP said she complained of tiredness and sleepiness.
As such the dose was halved.
I note she was also prescribed Tridulan for hay fever which can bring on the side effects SC complained of.
I recall taking Tridulan for prickly heat on an 18 - 30's holiday to Tenerife during the 80's and kept falling asleep in night clubs before midnight 8(8-))
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10360127
Persistence of haloperidol in human brain tissue.
Kornhuber J1, Schultz A, Wiltfang J, Meineke I, Gleiter CH, Zöchling R, Boissl KW, Leblhuber F, Riederer P.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
After discontinuation of neuroleptic drugs, their antipsychotic and antiparkinsonian effects are still present for a prolonged period. It is not known whether the extended effects of neuroleptic drugs in humans are due to the continued presence of drug in brain tissue or to long-lasting drug-induced physiologic changes. The aim of this study was to directly examine haloperidol concentrations in human brain tissue in relation to drug-free time.
METHOD:
Haloperidol concentrations were measured in five regions (temporal cortex, cingulate gyrus, caudate nucleus, dentate nucleus, corpus callosum) of the postmortem brains of 11 patients previously treated with haloperidol. Haloperidol was analyzed by means of high-performance liquid chromatography with ultraviolet detection. The half-life in brain tissue was estimated by a population kinetic analysis.
RESULTS:
Haloperidol concentrations in the human brain tissue were 10-30 times higher than optimal serum concentrations used in the treatment of schizophrenia. Haloperidol concentrations appeared to be homogeneously distributed across different brain areas within a single patient. There was no apparent relation between duration of treatment and mean haloperidol concentration. Higher doses of haloperidol seemed to be related to higher concentrations in brain tissue. The elimination half-life from brain tissue was calculated to be 6.8 days.
CONCLUSIONS:
The results may have implications for clinical treatment decisions and the design of clinical research protocols. Patients exposed to haloperidol cannot be considered to be free of residual effects of the drug for a number of weeks after withdrawal.
-
I’ve said REPEATEDLY where it can be found, so I suggest you get off your butt and look.
Sheila could BARELY walk that day.
I take the point that I should have provided the quote!
Several witnesses saw Sheila in the days before the murders. Barbara Wilson's son implies she was walking normally, and so does Len Foakes. Michael Horsnell, decorating the exterior of Vaulty, mentions Sheila walking rigidly. There is also mention of Sheila taking the twins to the rape field to see Jeremy (Barbara Wilson), and no mention of her barely being able to walk. (pp591-614 CAL's book).
Please remember the forum rules and be polite, even if you don't like what some of us have to say. It is called mature discussion.
-
OK, I apologise for being rude. That was unnecessary of me and I’m sorry.
Like most people I have my flaws, and one of them is intolerance. I admit that. But I’m asked repeatedly for evidence, links, quotes from the same few people, and they are more au fait with the case than I am! I’ve read thousands of words on the case, including reading books & official documents, and I don’t have a photographic memory — so I can’t immediately fetch the source up.
What I can say is, I do not lie as I’ve absolutely no need to, and if I’ve read something I retain that information but don’t always remember exactly where I read it.
As for Sheila’s walking that day, it was noted by various independent witnesses that she was walking like a zombie: slowly, stiffly, and with only the bottom half of her legs moving. It must have been extreme for people to remark on it.
In the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant in a way: everyone knows Sheila was too weak, listless and shaky to even apply her lipstick properly, and everyone knows it would have been impossible for her to have beaten Nevill to a pulp, fought off both June and Nevill at the same time (which appears happened by the bedroom door, and then shoot them all dead — including herself.
Forensics, scientists, ballistics, police, doctors, pathologists, witnesses — a whole host of people have said she could not have murdered her family. She didn’t want to; had no reason to; and was physically and mentally incapable of doing so. She adored her children, adored her dad, and certainly didn’t want to die.
I feel so sorry for Sheila in so many ways. Not only was she subjected to her mother’s cold, domineering demands, but she had to listen to her religious ramblings too. Even after death Jeremy made sure her name was dragged through the mud. Remember, not only did he kill her and her children, he tried to defame her by offering The Sun nude photos of her: are they the actions of a grief-stricken brother?
Aside from that, I think Holly should remove Sheila’s medical notes that she posted earlier. There’s confidential, embarrassing things in there that Sheila wouldn’t want people to know. Lots of women get thrush, and many women giving birth can develop problems in that region, but to put it on the WWW is horrible. Remember, Sheila’s biological mother is still alive, as is her biological uncle...it’s extremely distasteful to show strangers Sheila’s medical notes.
-
OK, I apologise for being rude. That was unnecessary of me and I’m sorry.
Like most people I have my flaws, and one of them is intolerance. I admit that. But I’m asked repeatedly for evidence, links, quotes from the same few people, and they are more au fait with the case than I am! I’ve read thousands of words on the case, including reading books & official documents, and I don’t have a photographic memory — so I can’t immediately fetch the source up.
What I can say is, I do not lie as I’ve absolutely no need to, and if I’ve read something I retain that information but don’t always remember exactly where I read it.
As for Sheila’s walking that day, it was noted by various independent witnesses that she was walking like a zombie: slowly, stiffly, and with only the bottom half of her legs moving. It must have been extreme for people to remark on it.
In the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant in a way: everyone knows Sheila was too weak, listless and shaky to even apply her lipstick properly, and everyone knows it would have been impossible for her to have beaten Nevill to a pulp, fought off both June and Nevill at the same time (which appears happened by the bedroom door, and then shoot them all did — including herself.
Forensics, scientists, ballistics, police, doctors, pathologists, witnesses — a while host of people have said she could not have murdered her family. She didn’t want to; had no reason to; and was physically and mentally incapable of doing so. She adored her children, adored her dad, and certainly didn’t want to die.
I feel so sorry for Sheila in so many ways. Not only was she subjected to her mother’s cold, domineering demands, but she had to listen to her religious ramblings too. Even after death Jeremy made sure her name was dragged through the mud. Remember, not only did he kill her and her children, he tried to defame her by offering The Sun nude photos of her: are they the actions of a grief-stricken brother?
Aside from that, I think Holly should remove Sheila’s medical notes that she posted earlier. There’s confidential, embarrassing things in there that Sheila wouldn’t want people to know. Lots of women get thrush, and many women giving birth can develop problems in that region, but to put it on the WWW is horrible. Remember, Sheila’s biological mother is still alive, as is her biological uncle...it’s extremely distasteful to show strangers Sheila’s medical notes.
Apology accepted, and thank you.
I'm not very "au fait" with the case either, and I'm on here to learn , more than for any other reason. You will find that there are several people posting on here who are extremely well informed, and who have been studying the case for years. I followed it at the time it happened (I lived in Essex then, and so it was of local as well as national interest), but stopped after the trial, so knew nothing about the appeals. I read CAL's book (after reading her excellent book on Myra Hindley), then watched the TV series, so my interest has re-kindled!
-
OK, I apologise for being rude. That was unnecessary of me and I’m sorry.
Like most people I have my flaws, and one of them is intolerance. I admit that. But I’m asked repeatedly for evidence, links, quotes from the same few people, and they are more au fait with the case than I am! I’ve read thousands of words on the case, including reading books & official documents, and I don’t have a photographic memory — so I can’t immediately fetch the source up.
What I can say is, I do not lie as I’ve absolutely no need to, and if I’ve read something I retain that information but don’t always remember exactly where I read it.
As for Sheila’s walking that day, it was noted by various independent witnesses that she was walking like a zombie: slowly, stiffly, and with only the bottom half of her legs moving. It must have been extreme for people to remark on it.
In the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant in a way: everyone knows Sheila was too weak, listless and shaky to even apply her lipstick properly, and everyone knows it would have been impossible for her to have beaten Nevill to a pulp, fought off both June and Nevill at the same time (which appears happened by the bedroom door, and then shoot them all did — including herself.
Forensics, scientists, ballistics, police, doctors, pathologists, witnesses — a while host of people have said she could not have murdered her family. She didn’t want to; had no reason to; and was physically and mentally incapable of doing so. She adored her children, adored her dad, and certainly didn’t want to die.
I feel so sorry for Sheila in so many ways. Not only was she subjected to her mother’s cold, domineering demands, but she had to listen to her religious ramblings too. Even after death Jeremy made sure her name was dragged through the mud. Remember, not only did he kill her and her children, he tried to defame her by offering The Sun nude photos of her: are they the actions of a grief-stricken brother?
Aside from that, I think Holly should remove Sheila’s medical notes that she posted earlier. There’s confidential, embarrassing things in there that Sheila wouldn’t want people to know. Lots of women get thrush, and many women giving birth can develop problems in that region, but to put it on the WWW is horrible. Remember, Sheila’s biological mother is still alive, as is her biological uncle...it’s extremely distasteful to show strangers Sheila’s medical notes.
I was shocked and disturbed to come across close up pictures of her dead body on here, was that really necessary either?
-
I was shocked and disturbed to come across close up pictures of her dead body on here, was that really necessary either?
Any disturbing images of Sheila, June or Nevill are visible because of Mike Tesko. Long story, but basically he's a sad, desperate, needy little man, likes to shock, desperately needs attention. He is enabled by a man who calls himself "NGB." Who should know better. Two dodgy blokes who should stop milking the tragic deaths of a lovely family Massive shame.
-
Apology accepted, and thank you.
I'm not very "au fait" with the case either, and I'm on here to learn , more than for any other reason. You will find that there are several people posting on here who are extremely well informed, and who have been studying the case for years. I followed it at the time it happened (I lived in Essex then, and so it was of local as well as national interest), but stopped after the trial, so knew nothing about the appeals. I read CAL's book (after reading her excellent book on Myra Hindley), then watched the TV series, so my interest has re-kindled!
Thank you for accepting my apology — I appreciate that.
I need to learn not to let my emotions get the better of me.
Yes, there are many people on here who are vastly informed on the case, and of course it’s a case everyone knows or discusses as its such an extraordinary, shocking, almost unbelievable thing to have happened.
And believe me, if I thought Jeremy was innocent I’d say so. I’m extremely outspoken and will always fight the corner if someone I think is right. But there’s absolutely nothing whatsoever that even suggests to me that Jeremy isn’t guilty.
-
I wouldn't normally reply to such a rude post, but I take the point that I should have provided the quote!
Several witnesses saw Sheila in the days before the murders. Barbara Wilson's son implies she was walking normally, and so does Len Foakes. Michael Horsnell, decorating the exterior of Vaulty, mentions Sheila walking rigidly. There is also mention of Sheila taking the twins to the rape field to see Jeremy (Barbara Wilson), and no mention of her barely being able to walk. (pp591-614 CAL's book).
Please remember the forum rules and be polite, even if you don't like what some of us have to say. It is called mature discussion.
On the morning before the murdersMichael Horsenell described Sheila as walking rigidly, like a zombie and definitely did not look normal, I’ve literally just got up to that bit in CAL’s book describing it, Chapter 19
-
On the morning before the murdersMichael Horsenell described Sheila as walking rigidly, like a zombie and definitely did not look normal, I’ve literally just got up to that bit in CAL’s book describing it, Chapter 19
Yes, you're right. She walked through a gaggle of geese, and I know that's scary. Sheila did what she always did, cared for her boys. While feeling sad, loving her boys, thinking of her sad life, wondering what to do. She was young, lonely, desperate.
-
Yes, you're right. She walked through a gaggle of geese, and I know that's scary. Sheila did what she always did, cared for her boys. While feeling sad, loving her boys, thinking of her sad life, wondering what to do. She was young, lonely, desperate.
She could no more harm those sweet boys than fly to the moon. Bamber, however, thought of them as a trial.
-
It came from the horse’s mouth, Holly
Colin, who SPOKE with the pathologist, was told by him that Sheila had “unusually high levels” of Haloperidol in her system. Now, whether that means they were unusually high due to her asking for a reduced dose, I have no idea. But that’s what Colin says — in his book — page 48.
It’s there in black and white.
Holly, for someone who believes every word a convicted mass murderer comes out with, its very strange that you disbelieve others. That suggests to me you’re mistrusting, yet you trust and believe a proven liar, a thief, a drug dealer, and a mass murderer who to this day refuses to admit his guilt despite all the overwhelming evidence....
Strange!
Thanks.
On page 48 of CC's updated paperback he refers to tests for illegal narcotics like cocaine proved negative, but instead revealed an unusually high level of Haloperidol. This is wrong based on the outcome of tests performed by forensic scientist Alexander Allan in that the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood represented a med dose at the low end of the med range. Also its not entirely accurate that the tests proved negative for illegal narcotics in that traces of cannabis were found.
I don't believe the prosecution at trial attempted to advance arguments to the effect that SC was unable to carry out what the defence claimed on the basis she was over medicated?
CC refers to hearing from her GP. I believe he did actually speak with Dr Ferguson at some time but I can't find any evidence he spoke with the pathologist, Dr Vanezis, as you claim.
-
The levels were in the MEDIUM range, Holly
Stop copying Jeremy Bamber’s sly trick of trying to twist/distort/exaggerate/underwhelm things — it’s so obvious what you’re trying to do
The fact is, the Haloperidol in Sheila’s system was in the medium range. The pathologist told Colin it was “unusually high”. I’ve explained to you why that might have been: perhaps Sheila hadn’t been given the reduced dosage she’d asked for...
Regardless, she did indeed have the drug in her system, and it did indeed incapacitate her. She could barely SIT UP from a chair!
You are demeaning Sheila and trying to make her look like the culprit when it’s been PROVEN in a court of law that Jeremy Bamber is a an evil, vile mass murderer! Those are the words of the judge, and everyone KNOWS what he is, so for you to try and twist facts by suggesting a Sheila murdered her two children and parents’ is so, so low...
The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0. At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml. This level is at the low end of medium.
I am not demeaning anyone. I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.
-
I’ve ALREADY told you!
Don’t you READ?
And stop asking me to post evidence! You’re not a police officer. You’re not a lawyer. And I’m not your runaround.
Find it yourself. I’ve told you where to look!
I think you may have anger management issues. 8(>((
If you are referring to Colin Caffell's book I saw no mention of him speaking with a pathologist as you claimed.
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11326.msg581034#msg581034
-
Going forward can we refrain please from any comments of a personal nature including aggressively themed capital letters.
The board has been set up for debate and discussion. Posters will have a wide range of views on the different aspects of the case and about who was and wasn't responsible. Please remain objective and do not take it personally when others disagree.
-
She could no more harm those sweet boys than fly to the moon. Bamber, however, thought of them as a trial.
The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance
He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it
It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...
He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N. Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.
-
The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance
He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it
It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...
He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N. Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.
The twins were not named beneficiaries of either will. JB would have inherited the entire Bamber estate regardless of whether or not the twins survived.
-
The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance
He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it
It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...
He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N. Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.
Where did Jeremy invite Colin to stay? At WHF -which wasn't actually his place to make such an invitation- or Bourtree Cottage? Was it Colin who made the claim?
-
The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0. At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml. This level is at the low end of medium.
I am not demeaning anyone. I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.
The levels are still in the MEDIUM range, Holly.
They’re not in the low range; they’re not even in the upper low range.
They’re in the MEDIUM range.
Besides, proof that even that dosage was far too high for her was the fact she could barely walk or focus.
But let’s say she had NO Haloperidol in her system — she STILL would have been incapable of overpowering Nevill and beating him to a pulp.
With all due respect, Holly, you refuse to listen to anything you don’t like hearing, and whilst I have at times been rude (for which I’ve apologised), I’m becoming tired of contributing anymore, simply because you shut me down, threaten me with warnings, reprimand people for speaking their minds, and create the impression that unless people bow down to you or agree with you we’re not welcome. That comes across at tyrannical, oppressive and is not conducive to a DISCUSSION BOARD where people can offer their opinions unless they side with yours.
Everyone’s opinion is of equal value; without others there’d be no forum.
-
The medium range in terms of ng of Haloperidol per ml of blood is from 13.1 to 24.0. At tod the level of Haloperidol in SC's blood was 15 ng per ml. This level is at the low end of medium.
I am not demeaning anyone. I am simply reciting the facts as presented by forensic scientist Alexander Allan.
Did you actually read the study you posted yesterday?
It doesn't matter that the does was iat the lower end of moderate - she STILL had a MODERATE dose left at a time when her next injection was due. The study you posted concluded that the "results imply that low or moderate doses of neuroleptics are appropriate for many acutely psychotic patients."
-
The twins were not named beneficiaries of either will. JB would have inherited the entire Bamber estate regardless of whether or not the twins survived.
Nonsense, Holly.
June and Nevill had both the twins’ named in their wills as beneficiaries.
Please stop posting false information
-
Where did Jeremy invite Colin to stay? At WHF -which wasn't actually his place to make such an invitation- or Bourtree Cottage? Was it Colin who made the claim?
Yes, Colin said (I’ll find it for you), that when he went to WHF to drop off Sheila and the twins’, Jeremy suggested he stay overnight.
Colin refused as he had to get back to London, but he found it strange considering Jeremy had never asked him to stay before — and not forgetting he wasn’t even living there any longer.
I will find it for you....
-
Yes, Colin said (I’ll find it for you), that when he went to WHF to drop off Sheila and the twins’, Jeremy suggested he stay overnight.
Ceiling refused as he had to get back to London, but he found it strange considering Jeremy had never asked him to stay before — and not forgetting he wasn’t even living there any longer.
I will find it for you....
That was what I found strange. Jeremy inviting Colin to stay at his parents' home.
-
Nonsense, Holly.
June and Nevill had both the twins’ named in their wills as beneficiaries.
Please stop posting false information
I didn't know that... Was Sheila mentioned, if sheil had died and the twins survived they could claim from her estate. Bamber collected from her as well didn't he? He also took responsibility for sheilas belongings including those photographs he tried to sell to the newspapers. Vile person he is.
-
Do we know, for sure, whether or not the twins were mentioned by name in June's and Nevill's wills? I remember reading somewhere that Jeremy suspected they were. Is that why he "snooped" and looked at the wills, does anyone know?
-
Do we know, for sure, whether or not the twins were mentioned by name in June's and Nevill's wills? I remember reading somewhere that Jeremy suspected they were. Is that why he "snooped" and looked at the wills, does anyone know?
"Asked if he could recall whether the twins were mentioned in the wills, Jeremy replied: ‘I don’t remember. I think they are but I’m not sure, but certainly not in name.’24 The actual wills, drawn up in 1979, largely bear out his assertions. June stipulated that any loan to Sheila and Colin was to be written off and that her share of Osea Road would go to Sheila on the understanding that the company would manage it for her. The rest would pass to Jeremy when he reached the age of twenty-five. In his will, Nevill bequeathed Bourtree Cottage and other personal effects to June. Apart from some small financial gifts, the bulk of his estate was to go to Jeremy, on one condition: ‘If my son, Jeremy Nevill Bamber, is, in the opinion of my trustees, farming with me at the date of my death, or the date of the death of my wife, whichever is the later, and/or they are reasonably satisfied that he intends to carry on farming thereafter, then subject to a legacy of £10,000 to my daughter Sheila Jean Caffell, the remainder of my residuary estate shall go to my said son."
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 125). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
-
"Asked if he could recall whether the twins were mentioned in the wills, Jeremy replied: ‘I don’t remember. I think they are but I’m not sure, but certainly not in name.’24 The actual wills, drawn up in 1979, largely bear out his assertions. June stipulated that any loan to Sheila and Colin was to be written off and that her share of Osea Road would go to Sheila on the understanding that the company would manage it for her. The rest would pass to Jeremy when he reached the age of twenty-five. In his will, Nevill bequeathed Bourtree Cottage and other personal effects to June. Apart from some small financial gifts, the bulk of his estate was to go to Jeremy, on one condition: ‘If my son, Jeremy Nevill Bamber, is, in the opinion of my trustees, farming with me at the date of my death, or the date of the death of my wife, whichever is the later, and/or they are reasonably satisfied that he intends to carry on farming thereafter, then subject to a legacy of £10,000 to my daughter Sheila Jean Caffell, the remainder of my residuary estate shall go to my said son."
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 125). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
According to that statement, it can be read that Neville didn't trust JB to keep the farm as a going concern. he would sell up and bolt.
-
"Asked if he could recall whether the twins were mentioned in the wills, Jeremy replied: ‘I don’t remember. I think they are but I’m not sure, but certainly not in name.’24 The actual wills, drawn up in 1979, largely bear out his assertions. June stipulated that any loan to Sheila and Colin was to be written off and that her share of Osea Road would go to Sheila on the understanding that the company would manage it for her. The rest would pass to Jeremy when he reached the age of twenty-five. In his will, Nevill bequeathed Bourtree Cottage and other personal effects to June. Apart from some small financial gifts, the bulk of his estate was to go to Jeremy, on one condition: ‘If my son, Jeremy Nevill Bamber, is, in the opinion of my trustees, farming with me at the date of my death, or the date of the death of my wife, whichever is the later, and/or they are reasonably satisfied that he intends to carry on farming thereafter, then subject to a legacy of £10,000 to my daughter Sheila Jean Caffell, the remainder of my residuary estate shall go to my said son."
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 125). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
I don't think it matters whether or not the twins were named in their grandparents' wills. Had they not been murdered they would have been their mother's heirs. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4782.msg171334#msg171334 So in either case they were an impediment to Jeremy Bamber's greed had they not been killed with everyone else.
-
According to that statement, it can be read that Neville didn't trust JB to keep the farm as a going concern. he would sell up and bolt.
And this is the point I've been labouring! NO! It isn't documented, but I know/have known some of Nevill's closest friends, and despite that many supporters have tried to attach alternatives to how Nevill felt about Jeremy, and why, those friends attest to him having doubts about Jeremy. If proof was required, why else would he add that rider to Jeremy's inheritance?
-
The levels are still in the MEDIUM range, Holly.
They’re not in the low range; they’re not even in the upper low range.
They’re in the MEDIUM range.
Besides, proof that even that dosage was far too high for her was the fact she could barely walk or focus.
But let’s say she had NO Haloperidol in her system — she STILL would have been incapable of overpowering Nevill and beating him to a pulp.
Using capitals doesn't actually make your posts more compelling.
I have never said the dose was in anything other than the medium range but its within the low range of medium.
Medium ranges from 13.1 to 24.0. Therfore SC's level at 15.0 is clearly at the low end of medium.
There's no pathological evidence NB was beaten to "a pulp" and the pathologist was not surprised that a woman of SC's build was capable of inflicting the injuries NB presented with.
-
The boys were in the way of Jeremy’s inheritance
He’d snooped at the will (he told the police in interview he’d read it), and he’d seen that the twins had been added to it
It was soon after that he began asking Sheila when she was going to bring the twins down to stay...
He even asked Colin to stay overnight when he dropped them all off, which is weird considering he had no reason to want Colin to stay O/N. Of course, Jeremy knew Colin wouldn’t have dreamt of claiming his twins’ share of the estate, and even if he had he’d have probably been unsuccessful, but it would have been wonderfully tidy for Jeremy to have them all dead.
JB didn't ask CC to stay the night at all. The Bamber's invited CC to stay the night.
Page 32 CC's book:
After supper they asked me if I wanted to stay the night, but I told them I needed to get going because I was expected elsewhere".
-
Did you actually read the study you posted yesterday?
It doesn't matter that the does was iat the lower end of moderate - she STILL had a MODERATE dose left at a time when her next injection was due. The study you posted concluded that the "results imply that low or moderate doses of neuroleptics are appropriate for many acutely psychotic patients."
Using capitals doesn't make your post more compelling.
SC's blood levels reveal the dose was at the low range of medium so she wasn't on a high dose likely to bring on difficulty with coordination. And there's no evidence she ever complained of problems with coordination or movement. Indeed her manicured and polished nails are testament to this.
SC is on record complaining to her GP about tiredness.
-
Nonsense, Holly.
June and Nevill had both the twins’ named in their wills as beneficiaries.
Please stop posting false information
It isn't nonsense at all the twins were not named as beneficiaries as is often the case with wills. Why would they be when the Bamber's might well have had more grandchildren through SC and JB?
Wills aren't changed every 5 minutes. The Bamber's named each other as they had no intention of separating. They named SC and JB as their family was complete in terms of their own children.
-
"Asked if he could recall whether the twins were mentioned in the wills, Jeremy replied: ‘I don’t remember. I think they are but I’m not sure, but certainly not in name.’24 The actual wills, drawn up in 1979, largely bear out his assertions. June stipulated that any loan to Sheila and Colin was to be written off and that her share of Osea Road would go to Sheila on the understanding that the company would manage it for her. The rest would pass to Jeremy when he reached the age of twenty-five. In his will, Nevill bequeathed Bourtree Cottage and other personal effects to June. Apart from some small financial gifts, the bulk of his estate was to go to Jeremy, on one condition: ‘If my son, Jeremy Nevill Bamber, is, in the opinion of my trustees, farming with me at the date of my death, or the date of the death of my wife, whichever is the later, and/or they are reasonably satisfied that he intends to carry on farming thereafter, then subject to a legacy of £10,000 to my daughter Sheila Jean Caffell, the remainder of my residuary estate shall go to my said son."
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 125). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
Thanks.
Are the wills the actual source of her info?
-
I didn't know that... Was Sheila mentioned, if sheil had died and the twins survived they could claim from her estate. Bamber collected from her as well didn't he? He also took responsibility for sheilas belongings including those photographs he tried to sell to the newspapers. Vile person he is.
How could anyone claim an inheritance from her estate when the inheritance was never actually in her estate?
-
It isn't nonsense at all the twins were not named as beneficiaries as is often the case with wills. Why would they be when the Bamber's might well have had more grandchildren through SC and JB?
Wills aren't changed every 5 minutes. The Bamber's named each other as they had no intention of separating. They named SC and JB as their family was complete in terms of their own children.
If the twins had lived and Bamber hadn’t gone to jail they would have inherited half the estate would they have not?
-
I don't think it matters whether or not the twins were named in their grandparents' wills. Had they not been murdered they would have been their mother's heirs. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4782.msg171334#msg171334 So in either case they were an impediment to Jeremy Bamber's greed had they not been killed with everyone else.
The main beneficiaries of the will were the Bamber's, SC and JB. With the Bamber's and SC deceased the estate would have gone to JB. Had the twins have survived they would not have benefitted as they were not named beneficiaries.
The will could have been contested but it would not automatically follow that the twins would receive all or part of SC's inheritance.
-
If the twins had lived and Bamber hadn’t gone to jail they would have inherited half the estate would they have not?
No. Why would they when they were named beneficiaries of the wills?
-
Using capitals doesn't actually make your posts more compelling.
I have never said the dose was in anything other than the medium range but its within the low range of medium.
Medium ranges from 13.1 to 24.0. Therfore SC's level at 15.0 is clearly at the low end of medium.
There's no pathological evidence NB was beaten to "a pulp" and the pathologist was not surprised that a woman of SC's build was capable of inflicting the injuries NB presented with.
I don’t need to capitalise letters to express my view; words alone should be enough for one to understand my point. However, there are occasions when I feel it apt to highlight a specific word, but almost every time I try to use the facilities on this site to use italics or bold etc, it doesn’t seem to work. It’s possibly a fault my end, but that’s why I capitalise certain words... I hope you now understand why, Holly.
And talking of compelling posts, if you gave compelling answers to certain questions rather than avoiding them, your points would come across better, too. You fail to respond to awkward questions time and time again, which simply reinforces the fact you can’t think of an answer...
As for the Haloperidol you do indeed CONSTANTLY say the levels in Sheila’s blood were in the LOW region of MEDIUM.
Why not just say MEDIUM range like the specialists stated? They didn’t even mention where it fell within the medium range; it was irrelevant. But you’re trying to suggest Sheila had low levels, when she wasn’t even in the low region. People can see what you’re trying to do, and why. You want to make Sheila look like the Haloperidol was having no effect on her, but it was — as has been proven by both her doctor, family, friends and witnesses. They knew her: you didn’t. The doctor knew how much was in her system; he knew the side effects that amount would have caused — and I believe him, a doctor, rather than you, Holly, who has no medical knowledge at all, I believe?
You’re now, in your desperate attempt to try and make Sheila look like murderer, claiming Nevill wasn’t beaten to a pulp, when police and the pathologist proved otherwise. They said how he’d taken a TERRIBLE, vicious beating — even after his death — so stop trying to play down his injuries just because YOU want the evil convicted mass murderer to be granted yet another appeal.
And for you to outrageously say the pathologist said Sheila could have beaten Nevill to such a degree is not just ludicrous, it’s an utter lie. He never said that at all — you are trying to distort facts when the evidence is slapping you in the face. The pathologist was actually FURIOUS with the police the day after carrying out the post mortems, because they’d withheld vital evidence from him, whereby had he have been in possession of it he’d never have RELUCTANTLY said Sheila had committed suicide. He was already deeply suspicious as to how she could have shot herself even once, let alone twice, but Taff Jones was so insistent she had shot herself (TWICE) that Vanezis reluctantly agreed it was “possible”. That is, until the next day when he saw the photographic evidence and exhibits: and that’s when he spoke up and said Sheila could NOT have killed herself. And that’s why he reported Taff Jones.
I really think you need to refresh yourself with the facts, Holly. You get so many things wrong.
-
No. Why would they when they were named beneficiaries of the wills?
You’re wrong AGAIN, Holly
The twins’ were Sheila’s next of kin, and when someone dies intestate everything passes to their NOK.
I’m surprised you didn’t know that!
-
According to that statement, it can be read that Neville didn't trust JB to keep the farm as a going concern. he would sell up and bolt.
It's at odds with a statement from chartered surveyor George Nicholls who had dealings with the Bamber's and JB over years:
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
You’re wrong AGAIN, Holly
The twins’ were Sheila’s next of kin, and when someone dies intestate everything passes to their NOK.
I’m surprised you didn’t know that!
You claiming I'm wrong doesn't make it so.
The inheritance was never in SC's estate.
-
If the twins had lived and Bamber hadn’t gone to jail they would have inherited half the estate would they have not?
You’re absolutely right, VS
When anyone dies without leaving a will their estate estate automatically passes to their next of kin.
In just the same way, despite June not bequeathing all her spectate to her sister, Pamela, as all June’s immediate family had been murdered — and the murderer, Jeremy Bamber was no longer entitled to one penny under the Crimes Act — everything passed to the next in line, who was Pamela.
So, had Sheila’s estate inherited from June would have automatically gone to the twins.
That’s why Jeremy Bamber was so eager for the boys to stay over...he planned to kill them. He’d also told Julie they’d be better off dead, and tried to encourage Colin to have them adopted telling him they were a “millstone round his neck”. Why on earth would a 24-year-old man try to encourage his sister’s ex-husband to have his two six-year-old sons adopted? That in itself shows you how devoid of normal emotions the monster is. Jeremy Bamber had no interest in the children at all — the only reason he wanted them adopted was so that they’d no longer be beneficiaries to the Bamber inheritance.
-
You claiming I'm wrong doesn't make it so.
The inheritance was never in SC's estate.
It would have been, though, had Jeremy not murdered her.
Furthermore, it would have gone to the twins had they still been alive after Sheila was killed.
So yes, me claiming you’re wrong does make it so.
You seem to be under the illusion that many of us have no knowledge or no expertise, but you don’t even know who we are.
-
You’re absolutely right, VS
When anyone dies without leaving a will their estate estate automatically passes to their next of kin.
In just the same way, despite June not bequeathing all her spectate to her sister, Pamela, as all June’s immediate family had been murdered — and the murderer, Jeremy Bamber was no longer entitled to one penny under the Crimes Act — everything passed to the next in line, who was Pamela.
So, had Sheila’s estate inherited from June would have automatically gone to the twins.
That’s why Jeremy Bamber was so eager for the boys to stay over...he planned to kill them. He’d also told Julie they’d be better off dead, and tried to encourage Colin to have them adopted telling him they were a “millstone round his neck”. Why on earth would a 24-year-old man try to encourage his sister’s ex-husband to have his two six-year-old sons adopted? That in itself shows you how devoid of normal emotions the monster is. Jeremy Bamber had no interest in the children at all — the only reason he wanted them adopted was so that they’d no longer be beneficiaries to the Bamber inheritance.
There was talk of the twins being fostered. June expressed such concerns to CC's mother Doris Brencher:
-
You’re absolutely right, VS
When anyone dies without leaving a will their estate estate automatically passes to their next of kin.
In just the same way, despite June not bequeathing all her spectate to her sister, Pamela, as all June’s immediate family had been murdered — and the murderer, Jeremy Bamber was no longer entitled to one penny under the Crimes Act — everything passed to the next in line, who was Pamela.
So, had Sheila’s estate inherited from June would have automatically gone to the twins.
That’s why Jeremy Bamber was so eager for the boys to stay over...he planned to kill them. He’d also told Julie they’d be better off dead, and tried to encourage Colin to have them adopted telling him they were a “millstone round his neck”. Why on earth would a 24-year-old man try to encourage his sister’s ex-husband to have his two six-year-old sons adopted? That in itself shows you how devoid of normal emotions the monster is. Jeremy Bamber had no interest in the children at all — the only reason he wanted them adopted was so that they’d no longer be beneficiaries to the Bamber inheritance.
Pretty sure adopted out kids maintain the same rights of inheritance. Scrub that. They don't.
Who knew? You did. I didn't. Good old Google. Damned, infernal adoption / intestate laws.
-
It's at odds with a statement from chartered surveyor George Nicholls who had dealings with the Bamber's and JB over years:
That statement means nothing.
It’s just hearsay.
Anyway, everyone knows that after Jeremy snooped at the wills he “suddenly” took a strange interest in the farm. People mocked Jeremy behind his back and said he was up to something when Nevill told a few people that Jeremy seemed to have “turned a corner “.
Poor Nevill...bamboozled by his greedy, grasping, thieving son who went onto murder him.
-
There was talk of the twins being fostered. June expressed such concerns to CC's mother Doris Brencher:
Yes, June was extremely worried that due to the horrendous effects of the Haloperidol on Sheila’s mental and physical health, the authorities may have taken the twins into care, which clearly terrified her.
And your point is, Holly?
-
There was talk of the twins being fostered. June expressed such concerns to CC's mother Doris Brencher:
Incidentally, HAD the twins been forcibly taken into care — which wouldn’t have happened as Colin had joint custody and was caring for them so well — but had they been taken into care they’d have still inherited Sheila’s share of the estate.
Any more revelations?
-
It's at odds with a statement from chartered surveyor George Nicholls who had dealings with the Bamber's and JB over years:
I'm not certain what you're trying to say here, but it seems to me that GN -having only met Jeremy a few times over the years, formed an opinion on nothing more than Nevill's comment that he was shaping up. I wonder why you're prepared to see a chartered surveyor's word -someone who only saw Nevill on a yearly basis- as being definitive when you refuse to accept the views of Nevill's close friends who saw, on a regular basis, the dynamic between father and son.
-
Pretty sure adopted out kids maintain the same rights of inheritance. Scrub that. They don't.
Who knew? You did. I didn't. Good old Google. Damned, infernal adoption / intestate laws.
General, it depends on whether the child was adopted before or after the death of their biological parents — and no-one mentioned adoption, they mentioned fostering (or the fear of it happening).
If a child is, say, orphaned and adopted at a later date then they would still have the right to inherit from their biological parents.
If the child is adopted BEFORE the death of their biological parents, then the legal relationship between the child and biological parent is severed and the child loses the legal right to inherit from their biological parents.
-
There was talk of the twins being fostered. June expressed such concerns to CC's mother Doris Brencher:
This reads as if June was telling Doris Bencher that she was afraid the authorities would step in and put the twins into foster care. She goes on to say that she was against it. As this occasion was after Sheila's second breakdown, doesn't suggest that talk -around the supper table at WHF- of having the children fostered, is something made up by Jeremy?
-
JB didn't ask CC to stay the night at all. The Bamber's invited CC to stay the night.
Page 32 CC's book:
After supper they asked me if I wanted to stay the night, but I told them I needed to get going because I was expected elsewhere".
Well, that means they all wanted Colin to stay, because Jeremy asked him too!
It’s in Colin’s book.
He actually asked Colin at a different time to June and Nevill....I wonder if J&N were feeling concerned about their safety and that’s why they wanted Colin to stay over?
Nevil had told people, including his secretary, that he feared Jeremy may do something to him...he even said “I must never turn my back on that man: I can see myself being “accidentally “ shot”
-
Pretty sure adopted out kids maintain the same rights of inheritance. Scrub that. They don't.
Who knew? You did. I didn't. Good old Google. Damned, infernal adoption / intestate laws.
My father'[s will, made when I was adopted, had to name me as being such. At some point the law changed. When my father made another will, I as named simply as being his daughter.
-
Well, that means they all wanted Colin to stay, because Jeremy asked him too!
It’s in Colin’s book.
He actually asked Colin at a different time to June and Nevill....I wonder if J&N were feeling concerned about their safety and that’s why they wanted Colin to stay over?
Nevil had told people, including his secretary, that he feared Jeremy may do something to him...he even said “I must never turn my back on that man: I can see myself being “accidentally “ shot”
I think it was rather more oblique. ie "Shooting season is coming up and accidents have been known to happen"?
-
This reads as if June was telling Doris Bencher that she was afraid the authorities would step in and put the twins into foster care. She goes on to say that she was against it. As this occasion was after Sheila's second breakdown, doesn't suggest that talk -around the supper table at WHF- of having the children fostered, is something made up by Jeremy?
Of course the pathological liar, Jeremy made it up.
June and Nevill absolutely adored the twins’: in fact, I did read that they did want to adopt them themselves when Sheila became unwell.
June would never have allowed or wanted those boys to be put into foster care, not just because she loved them, but the shame she’d have felt would have driven her to despair.
I guarantee Jeremy felt sick when they mentioned adopting the twins...seeing his inheritance shrink further...
I dare say had Sheila never had any children, he may possibly not have killed his family. He may have hastened Sheila’s demise by giving her illegal drugs resulting in her taking an “accidental” overdose in Maida Vale...and then embezzled money from the caravan site to fund his deluded playboy lifestyle until slowly driving his parents into despair and madness so he could take control of all the finances and running of the farm.
-
Of course the pathological liar, Jeremy made it up.
June and Nevill absolutely adored the twins’: in fact, I did read that they did want to adopt them themselves when Sheila became unwell.
June would never have allowed or wanted those boys to be put into foster care, not just because she loved them, but the shame she’d have felt would have driven her to despair.
I guarantee Jeremy felt sick when they mentioned adopting the twins...seeing his inheritance shrink further...
I dare say had Sheila never had any children, he may possibly not have killed his family. He may have hastened Sheila’s demise by giving her illegal drugs resulting in her taking an “accidental” overdose in Maida Vale...and then embezzled money from the caravan site to fund his deluded playboy lifestyle until slowly driving his parents into despair and madness so he could take control of all the finances and running of the farm.
For one so inherently lazy, he seems to have put some really hard work into finding ways of enabling him to do nothing.
-
There was talk of the twins being fostered. June expressed such concerns to CC's mother Doris Brencher:
Yes, she had concerns - meaning she didn't want it to happen.
-
Using capitals doesn't actually make your posts more compelling.
I have never said the dose was in anything other than the medium range but its within the low range of medium.
Medium ranges from 13.1 to 24.0. Therfore SC's level at 15.0 is clearly at the low end of medium.
There's no pathological evidence NB was beaten to "a pulp" and the pathologist was not surprised that a woman of SC's build was capable of inflicting the injuries NB presented with.
Neither does repeating the same things time and time again adding a biased slant. Sheila still had a medium dose in her system and there is no way you can try and mitigate that to sound unmedicated.
I think you need to read the pathologists report again.
Not sure what you have invested in this but you seem to have lost or be losing the common sense approach you used to have. That's not an insult, it's an observation. You can just ignore thing s or play then down because you can bet your life, the people you will need to deal with with play harder ball then a forum on the internet.
-
I'm not certain what you're trying to say here, but it seems to me that GN -having only met Jeremy a few times over the years, formed an opinion on nothing more than Nevill's comment that he was shaping up. I wonder why you're prepared to see a chartered surveyor's word -someone who only saw Nevill on a yearly basis- as being definitive when you refuse to accept the views of Nevill's close friends who saw, on a regular basis, the dynamic between father and son.
Because it doesn't fit.
-
This reads as if June was telling Doris Bencher that she was afraid the authorities would step in and put the twins into foster care. She goes on to say that she was against it. As this occasion was after Sheila's second breakdown, doesn't suggest that talk -around the supper table at WHF- of having the children fostered, is something made up by Jeremy?
Which is at odds with what Bamber claimed they were talking to Sheila about on the night of the murders.
-
For one so inherently lazy, he seems to have put some really hard work into finding ways of enabling him to do nothing.
It's an art! @)(++(*
-
It's an art! @)(++(*
As is, I believe, the ability to block out everything which doesn't come under the heading of pro Jeremy evidence. There's plenty of the 'other' sort which jumps off the page at us.
-
For one so inherently lazy, he seems to have put some really hard work into finding ways of enabling him to do nothing.
April, I absolutely love your quote!
For one so inheritantly lazy, he seems to have put some really hard work into finding ways of enabling him to do nothing.
I’m going to pinch that...hope you don’t mind 8(*(
-
April, I absolutely love your quote!
For one so inheritantly lazy, he seems to have put some really hard work into finding ways of enabling him to do nothing.
I’m going to pinch that...hope you don’t mind 8(*(
Be my guest, Spy! Why should I change the habit of a lifetime. Previous of my 'stuff' has found itself as a story- line in a soap, and being attributed to an author in a docu on the television. Who knows where this one might take you? 8(0(*
-
General, it depends on whether the child was adopted before or after the death of their biological parents — and no-one mentioned adoption, they mentioned fostering (or the fear of it happening).
If a child is, say, orphaned and adopted at a later date then they would still have the right to inherit from their biological parents.
If the child is adopted BEFORE the death of their biological parents, then the legal relationship between the child and biological parent is severed and the child loses the legal right to inherit from their biological parents.
In the eyes of the law once an adoption takes place the adopted child is treated in exactly the same way as if the child had been born to the adoptive parents.
In terms of inheritance the adopted child/adult has the same rights as birth children and no rights to a claim on his/her birth parents/family.
-
In the eyes of the law once an adoption takes place the adopted child is treated in exactly the same way as if the child had been born to the adoptive parents.
In terms of inheritance the adopted child/adult has the same rights as birth children and no rights to a claim on his/her birth parents/family.
You’re repeating what I already said, Holly
Perhaps you misunderstood the part where I said if the child was orphaned prior to adoption, they’d inherits their biological parents’ estate as they’d be the next of kin. If they had siblings it would be shared. And if you want to be pedantic, if the deceased parents’ will stipulated their estate went elsewhere, the children’s guardians could contest it on their behalf.
But that completely off topic...
-
I was just reading thru some old docs.
From FE:
I have been asked if Sheila had trouble with her muscular coordination. When she came out of hospital the second time she appeared to have slowed down. By this she seemed to do things at a much slower pace. She had no problem with her co-ordination and appeared to be aware of what she was doing. She had no trouble in picking things up and holding onto them.
-
I was just reading thru some old docs.
From FE:
I have been asked if Sheila had trouble with her muscular coordination. When she came out of hospital the second time she appeared to have slowed down. By this she seemed to do things at a much slower pace. She had no problem with her co-ordination and appeared to be aware of what she was doing. She had no trouble in picking things up and holding onto them.
As I always thought evidenced by her manicured and polished nails.
-
As I always thought evidenced by her manicured and polished nails.
The nails she didn't damage one iota whilst reloading a solitary magazine twice (how long did it take you Holly, a minute?), never missing a beat, weapon drills on point (a weapon that was made less unwieldy with the convenient removal of scope and, at one point, suppressor), counting rounds as she went (gotta know how many you've got left in the middle of a spree, right), leaving a safe weapon at the end.
-
The nails she didn't damage one iota whilst reloading a solitary magazine twice (how long did it take you Holly, a minute?), never missing a beat, weapon drills on point (a weapon that was made less unwieldy with the convenient removal of scope and, at one point, suppressor), counting rounds as she went (gotta know how many you've got left in the middle of a spree, right), leaving a safe weapon at the end.
I've no idea how long you keep your nails and whether or not you polish them 8(0(* but mine have at times been long and polished and I don't understand why anyone would think what occurred at WHF would cause damage?
The William sisters are famed as much for their tennis as their nails and despite gruelling games they emerge with their long polished nails adorned with art in tact.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Williams+sisters+nails&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&prmd=minv&sxsrf=ALeKk038E6YUfLae2MJL-TTVk3ZFIPEwPA:1586725226871&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1zIOM5OPoAhUJZMAKHWnXARUQ_AUoAnoECAwQAw&biw=360&bih=655&dpr=2
-
I've no idea how long you keep your nails and whether or not you polish them 8(0(* but mine have at times been long and polished and I don't understand why anyone would think what occurred at WHF would cause damage?
The William sisters are famed as much for their tennis as their nails and despite gruelling games they emerge with their long polished nails adorned with art in tact.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Williams+sisters+nails&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&prmd=minv&sxsrf=ALeKk038E6YUfLae2MJL-TTVk3ZFIPEwPA:1586725226871&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1zIOM5OPoAhUJZMAKHWnXARUQ_AUoAnoECAwQAw&biw=360&bih=655&dpr=2
Much as I admire the Williams sisters, particularly Serena, who, in my opinion, is one of the greatest athletes of all time, a couple of sets of tennis is hardly comparable.
-
Much as I admire the Williams sisters, particularly Serena, who, in my opinion, is one of the greatest athletes of all time, a couple of sets of tennis is hardly comparable.
In what way do you think the bio-mechanical movement of wielding the rifle to inflict blows on NB is not comparable with Serena serving at 126 mph and then entering into a long rally?
-
In what way do you think the bio-mechanical movement of wielding the rifle to inflict blows on NB is not comparable with Serena serving at 126 mph and then entering into a long rally?
Their nails are acrylics, were Sheila’s?
-
Their nails are acrylics, were Sheila’s?
Sheila's were natural.
-
Their nails are acrylics, were Sheila’s?
It makes no difference.
-
Sheila's were natural.
Were they? Makes no difference.
-
For the benefit of the newbies and Myster who never tires of the following.
2 mins in you can observe 'Farm Girl' loading cartridges into the mag to her Bushmaster and then let off a few shots. Please note her long polished nails.
https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc
-
Were they? Makes no difference.
Why does it make no difference Holly?
https://www.salongeek.com/threads/does-polish-chip-off-acrylic.40029/
-
Were they? Makes no difference.
You're right. Both would chip, as a minimum, on the index finger, loading that mag twice whilst in the midst of a killing frenzy.
-
For the benefit of the newbies and Myster who never tires of the following.
2 mins in you can observe 'Farm Girl' loading cartridges into the mag to her Bushmaster and then let off a few shots. Please note her long polished nails.
https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc
I note that thr paint on the thumb of her left hand has chipped off, didn’t bother watching to see if I could glimpse all the rest of her fingers.
-
I note that thr paint on the thumb of her left hand has chipped off, didn’t bother watching to see if I could glimpse all the rest of her fingers.
Yes there's a slight chip but that was there before she loaded and fired the weapon.
-
For the benefit of the newbies and Myster who never tires of the following.
2 mins in you can observe 'Farm Girl' loading cartridges into the mag to her Bushmaster and then let off a few shots. Please note her long polished nails.
https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc
Is this the same sort of magazine the gun used in the murders would have had?
Silly question, I know, but I know nothing at all about guns!
-
You're right. Both would chip, as a minimum, on the index finger, loading that mag twice whilst in the midst of a killing frenzy.
They wouldn't. I've done all sorts with long polished nails and they don't break and chip all over the place. The most hazardous thing is not donning the Marigolds when undertaking housework and exposing them to harsh chemicals and prolonged periods in hard water.
-
Yes there's a slight chip but that was there before she loaded and fired the weapon.
It’s interesting to note how long it takes to load the cartridges into the gun, quite a slow methodical process. Can you talk us through at what two points during the killing spree you think Sheila achieved this?
-
Is this the same sort of magazine the gun used in the murders would have had?
Silly question, I know, but I know nothing at all about guns!
No the magazine and cartridges are about 4 times the size of those used at WHF. I will find images for you but it might be tomorrow as I get sleepy about now.
-
They wouldn't. I've done all sorts with long polished nails and they don't break and chip all over the place. The most hazardous thing is not donning the Marigolds when undertaking housework and exposing them to harsh chemicals and prolonged periods in hard water.
My nail polish has usually chipped on at least one finger within a day of applying it.
-
It’s interesting to note how long it takes to load the cartridges into the gun, quite a slow methodical process. Can you talk us through at what two points during the killing spree you think Sheila achieved this?
What a terrible example. I reckon most of her nails were chipped.
Having said that, I could watch that all day.
-
No the magazine and cartridges are about 4 times the size of those used at WHF. I will find images for you but it might be tomorrow as I get sleepy about now.
You neglected to answer my question, Holly; how long did it take you to load that .22 mag?
-
I was just reading thru some old docs.
From FE:
I have been asked if Sheila had trouble with her muscular coordination. When she came out of hospital the second time she appeared to have slowed down. By this she seemed to do things at a much slower pace. She had no problem with her co-ordination and appeared to be aware of what she was doing. She had no trouble in picking things up and holding onto them.
OK, so you found a statement in which one person didn't think Sheila seemed uncoordinated and now that means you can dismiss the comments of others who claim she was. This is a bit like how you see the test results that you might supply - finding will just cancel out the past - it doesn't work like that.
-
Is this the same sort of magazine the gun used in the murders would have had?
Silly question, I know, but I know nothing at all about guns!
This is a similar Anschutz 525 rifle (also known as 470 dependent on where manufactured) and ten-round magazine...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THE8i15O_7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THE8i15O_7o)
... and a five-round magazine being loaded. Notice how in this case it was more difficult to insert the fifth round because of a spring binding problem. Perhaps this was what happened when Malcolm Fletcher experienced the same thing with the ten-round magazine, as a result of it being been loaded numerous times in the past...
https://youtu.be/o1RgW9KFqBE?t=519 (https://youtu.be/o1RgW9KFqBE?t=519)
-
As I always thought evidenced by her manicured and polished nails.
There’s a difference between being slow in movement and picking things up, to applying cosmetics carefully. Her friends said that she turned up days before Jeremy Bamber killed her, and her make-up was all messy where she hadn’t applied it properly. On the actual day/eve of the murders the shopkeeper who sold them jeans for the twins’, said that when Sheila turned and smiled all her teeth were bright red with lipstick. I know lipstick can smudge on your teeth, but only a small amount, which you usually check last thing. As Sheila was conscious about her looking her best, that alone proves she even had trouble applying her lipstick — and was too tranquillised to remember to check for smudges..
So Freddie’s statement doesn’t say anything, really. Just that she was slow in movement. He wasn’t with her 24/7 and he probably witnessed her when she was taking the drug (forgotten the name, I will check) which helped counteract the severe unsteadiness, shaking, trembling the Haloperidol caused...and which she’d run out when she went to WHF when Jeremy Bamber shot her and her two sons dead, along with his parents’.
-
I've no idea how long you keep your nails and whether or not you polish them 8(0(* but mine have at times been long and polished and I don't understand why anyone would think what occurred at WHF would cause damage?
The William sisters are famed as much for their tennis as their nails and despite gruelling games they emerge with their long polished nails adorned with art in tact.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Williams+sisters+nails&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&prmd=minv&sxsrf=ALeKk038E6YUfLae2MJL-TTVk3ZFIPEwPA:1586725226871&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1zIOM5OPoAhUJZMAKHWnXARUQ_AUoAnoECAwQAw&biw=360&bih=655&dpr=2
The Williams’ have acrylic nails, Holly, which are almost unbreakable and never chip.
They’re really keen on nail art — they discussed it somewhere.
Maybe you’ve never had acrylics, but I have and still do (not nail art though😙) and they are almost unbreakable — I’m sure you know that.
-
Much as I admire the Williams sisters, particularly Serena, who, in my opinion, is one of the greatest athletes of all time, a couple of sets of tennis is hardly comparable.
I’ve never broken a nail playing tennis....
Either my natural ones when long, or acrylics....
-
In what way do you think the bio-mechanical movement of wielding the rifle to inflict blows on NB is not comparable with Serena serving at 126 mph and then entering into a long rally?
For goodness sake!
You put your whole BODY strength into a serve, in fact, all the match — that’s where the speed comes from — not your fingertips.
I take it you don’t play tennis, Holly...
-
It makes no difference.
That is RUBBISH!!!
Acrylics are almost unbreakable!!!
You’re either lying, or you’re clueless
-
I was just reading thru some old docs.
From FE:
I have been asked if Sheila had trouble with her muscular coordination. When she came out of hospital the second time she appeared to have slowed down. By this she seemed to do things at a much slower pace. She had no problem with her co-ordination and appeared to be aware of what she was doing. She had no trouble in picking things up and holding onto them.
I don't believe her lack of coordination can be questioned. A film crew went into the Maudsley and filmed patients. They all had a curious gait and appeared to be in a zombified state -in a lesser way, this has been claimed of Sheila- which was due, it was claimed, to their medication. Whilst I'm not claiming that it was Haloperidol -only because I can't recall- it was certainly a medication renown -as is Haloperidol- for having these particular side effects.
-
For the benefit of the newbies and Myster who never tires of the following.
2 mins in you can observe 'Farm Girl' loading cartridges into the mag to her Bushmaster and then let off a few shots. Please note her long polished nails.
https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc
Her nails are acrylics
They’re also filed straight across...but they’re actually on the SHORT side as nails go!
Sheilas were:
A) Natural
B) Filed to a point (making them even more fragile)
C) Very long
Try harder, Holly 😌
-
They wouldn't. I've done all sorts with long polished nails and they don't break and chip all over the place. The most hazardous thing is not donning the Marigolds when undertaking housework and exposing them to harsh chemicals and prolonged periods in hard water.
All nail polish chips on natural nails, Holly
Don’t make up stories...
-
The Williams’ have acrylic nails, Holly, which are almost unbreakable and never chip.
They’re really keen on nail art — they discussed it somewhere.
Maybe you’ve never had acrylics, but I have and still do (not nail art though😙) and they are almost unbreakable — I’m sure you know that.
As an add on, I had my nails gelled just prior to lockdown. By now I'd have had them renewed, however............I discovered it's impossible to cut or clip them -they're too tough- so I use an emery board, which, whilst not perfect, is better than nothing. BUT, they're too long to successfully pick anything up, and typing, without errors, is impossible so I have real doubts about how Sheila, hardly gun competent anyway, managed to do the necessary re the rifle.
-
No the magazine and cartridges are about 4 times the size of those used at WHF. I will find images for you but it might be tomorrow as I get sleepy about now.
So, even MORE fiddly and difficult to change the cartridges...
And you’re trying to suggest Sheila did that, when forensics, ballistics and the court has PROVED Sheila didn’t?
Why can’t you accept concrete evidence?
-
As an add on, I had my nails gelled just prior to lockdown. By now I'd have had them renewed, however............I discovered it's impossible to cut or clip them -they're too tough- so I use an emery board, which, whilst not perfect, is better than nothing. BUT, they're too long to successfully pick anything up, and typing, without errors, is impossible so I have real doubts about how Sheila, hardly gun competent anyway, managed to do the necessary re the rifle.
Absolutely, April.
It’s even difficult to use a keypad/touchpad with long fingernails, whether natural or acrylics, and as for picking up a small battery or pen...it’s incredibly difficult.
I don’t have acrylics at the moment, but I usually do and they last beautifully for two weeks without any chips to the polish, and are unbreakable. I find they need refilling by end of week two, but have sometimes gone up to three weeks if I’ve been too busy, and STILL they don’t break. They just show the growth and don’t look good, and trying to get them off yourself is almost impossible.
-
Absolutely, April.
It’s even difficult to use a keypad/touchpad with long fingernails, whether natural or acrylics, and as for picking up a small battery or pen...it’s incredibly difficult.
I don’t have acrylics at the moment, but I usually do and they last beautifully for two weeks without any chips to the polish, and are unbreakable. I find they need refilling by end of week two, but have sometimes gone up to three weeks if I’ve been too busy, and STILL they don’t break. They just show the growth and don’t look good, and trying to get them off yourself is almost impossible.
I knew it might be several weeks!!! before I could have them redone, so opted for a French manicured look. The regrowth barely shows.....................Note to mods. Apologies for unnecessary frivolity
-
The Williams’ have acrylic nails, Holly, which are almost unbreakable and never chip.
They’re really keen on nail art — they discussed it somewhere.
Maybe you’ve never had acrylics, but I have and still do (not nail art though😙) and they are almost unbreakable — I’m sure you know that.
For once, I can actually agree with you, I Spy ! I loved my acrylics: nail polish stayed on for three weeks, and nothing ever broke. Gave them up some years ago though.
-
For once, I can actually agree with you, I Spy ! I loved my acrylics: nail polish stayed on for three weeks, and nothing ever broke. Gave them up some years ago though.
But do you find your own nails and ordinary polish break and chip easily?
-
All nail polish chips on natural nails, Holly
Don’t make up stories...
It doesn't if you do it properly and apply a topcoat!
-
So, even MORE fiddly and difficult for to change the cartridges...
And you’re trying to suggest Sheila did that, when forensics, ballistics and the court has PROVED Sheila didn’t?
Why can’t you accept concrete evidence?
What ballistic and forensic evidence shows SC was incapable of loading the mag and firing the rifle.
-
All nail polish chips on natural nails, Holly
Don’t make up stories...
It doesn't chip easily. If it did why would anyone bother polishing their finger/toenails?
-
I don't believe her lack of coordination can be questioned. A film crew went into the Maudsley and filmed patients. They all had a curious gait and appeared to be in a zombified state -in a lesser way, this has been claimed of Sheila- which was due, it was claimed, to their medication. Whilst I'm not claiming that it was Haloperidol -only because I can't recall- it was certainly a medication renown -as is Haloperidol- for having these particular side effects.
But it has been questioned by FE who saw SC ten times following her discharge from St Andrews on 29th March '85 and last saw SC on the Fri prior to the murders.
What evidence exists elsewhere that's as specific as FE's and contradicts what he has said?
-
It doesn't if you do it properly and apply a topcoat!
When my natural nails have been long, or even quite short, all nail polish chips easily.
And I’m talking all nail polish, from basic to Chanel — it chips.
-
But do you find your own nails and ordinary polish break and chip easily?
Yes! Might be different if I were a lady of leisure, I suppose!!
So, did Sheila definitely NOT have false nails? Scott Lomax says she did, and that Ann found one of them after the murders. Not sure whether he means actual false nails or acrylics. Were acrylics around in the 1980's? I know most people, if not everybody on here will tell me not to take any notice of Scott Lomax, but I don't believe he got everything wrong. He claims to have seen photos of Sheila's non perfect nails, but then, I suppose I'll be told these photos are fakes.
No wonder I can't make up my mind!
-
What ballistic and forensic evidence shows SC was incapable of loading the mag and firing the rifle.
Look, one doesn’t need to be an expert to know that if a woman who was already weak and shaky went berserk, got hold of a huge rifle, and tried fixing cartridges to it (after working how to), her nails would break — just as the ballistic expert’s did — and his were shirt.
You know full well the ballistic expert said Sheila’s nails would have broken...or have I read more than you have?
-
It doesn't chip easily. If it did why would anyone bother polishing their finger/toenails?
Very much depends what you do after painting them, I would imagine.
-
Yes! Might be different if I were a lady of leisure, I suppose!!
So, did Sheila definitely NOT have false nails? Scott Lomax says she did, and that Ann found one of them after the murders. Not sure whether he means actual false nails or acrylics. Were acrylics around in the 1980's? I know most people, if not everybody on here will tell me not to take any notice of Scott Lomax, but I don't believe he got everything wrong. He claims to have seen photos of Sheila's non perfect nails, but then, I suppose I'll be told these photos are fakes.
No wonder I can't make up my mind!
Any evidence of these photos?
Doubt it, but thought I’d ask...😌
-
No the magazine and cartridges are about 4 times the size of those used at WHF. I will find images for you but it might be tomorrow as I get sleepy about now.
Here's the key features doc for the cartridges. As you will see they are 25.4 mm in length and weigh 2.46 grams. From memory they are about 5mm to 7mm in diameter. The magazine is just big enough to accommodate them. I will try to find the precise measurements for the mag.
When I first handled them I was surprised to find them so small. If you're interested I would recommend going along to a gun shop and asking if you can have a look and handle them. I told the man in the shop I was carrying out some research into the case and he was happy to help. You can't purchase them as you need a licence. I offered to buy the box he opened but he said they use them all the time so it wasn't a problem. They're only about a fiver a box.
https://eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow/
-
Very much depends what you do after painting them, I would imagine.
Well, I haven’t washed-up in decades as I use a dishwasher, nor do I iron or garden...
But I do housework, and I cook.
Even on holiday you need to redo your polish every day or so if your nails are real...depends how fussy you are, I guess
-
You neglected to answer my question, Holly; how long did it take you to load that .22 mag?
The man in the shop just handed me a box of cartridges and the magazine. No instruction was given or asked for. The first cartridge I attempted to load the wrong way and realised immediately it was the other way round which took I guess 10 - 15 secs. Thereafter I guess it was around 5 - 10 secs to load each cartridge. I would liken the task to inserting batteries to a TV remote. There's nothing remotely complicated about it. You would need to suffer severe learning disabilities to find any trouble with it as it's obvious and intuitive. The magazine is designed so you can only insert them the right way so even if you attempt to load them the wrong way as I did you realise in seconds they go the other way.
JB said he left the mag with 8 - 10 cartridges in. But for those who disbelieve JB, the perp would only be time pressured with the first load where the evidence supports June sustaining 6 gsw's and NB 4 gsw's which incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said if other shots hadn't supervened they would have died from these initial gsw's.
-
Re the above I would say the most difficult/fiddly part was actually retrieving the cartridge from the box where each cartridge is faced bullet down into individual holes. I guess this is the reason JB spilled them out on the kitchen top when he loaded them.
I wrongly assumed they would be loose in a box like say a box of drawing pins.
-
The man in the shop just handed me a box of cartridges and the magazine. No instruction was given or asked for. The first cartridge I attempted to load the wrong way and realised immediately it was the other way round which took I guess 10 - 15 secs. Thereafter I guess it was around 5 - 10 secs to load each cartridge. I would liken the task to inserting batteries to a TV remote. There's nothing remotely complicated about it. You would need to suffer severe learning disabilities to find any trouble with it as it's obvious and intuitive. The magazine is designed so you can only insert them the right way so even if you attempt to load them the wrong way as I did you realise in seconds they go the other way.
JB said he left the mag with 8 - 10 cartridges in. But for those who disbelieve JB, the perp would only be time pressured with the first load where the evidence supports June sustaining 6 gsw's and NB 4 gsw's which incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said if other shots hadn't supervened they would have died from these initial gsw's.
Your last paragraph doesn’t make sense
No-one’s suggested June and Nevill weren’t first shot 10 times between them
What’s THAT got to do with loading cartridges?
Besides, just because the perp, Jeremy Bamber claimed he’d left the gun in the kitchen (or the settle in the scullery, depending which lie you listen to), he would’ve lied about the amount of cartridges he said were in there too...
He is a liar, remember, Holly
-
But do you find your own nails and ordinary polish break and chip easily?
Natural nails are worse - that's the point of acrylics etc.
-
Your last paragraph doesn’t make sense
No-one’s suggested June and Nevill weren’t first shot 10 times between them
What’s THAT got to do with loading cartridges?
Besides, just because the perp, Jeremy Bamber claimed he’d left the gun in the kitchen (or the settle in the scullery, depending which lie you listen to), he would’ve lied about the amount of cartridges he said were in there too...
He is a liar, remember, Holly
Whether JB or SC they were only under time pressure to load the first magazine as the gsw's June and NB sustained from the first load severely incapacitated them. I assume whether JB or SC they were already tooled up prior to the victims knowing they were about to come under attack. Therefore there was no time pressure to load the magazine whether the first round or rounds thereafter.
I do not believe JB is a liar. I do not believe the evidence by way of ballistics, biological, pathological or psychological supports JB committing the murders.
-
Natural nails are worse - that's the point of acrylics etc.
Acrylic lasts longer yes. But there's no evidence natural nails and the sort of polish commonly used in the mid 80's would break and chip all over the place. If it did what would be the point in drawing attention to the nails by wearing them long and applying bright red polish?
-
Whether JB or SC they were only under time pressure to load the first magazine as the gsw's June and NB sustained from the first load severely incapacitated them. I assume whether JB or SC they were already tooled up prior to the victims knowing they were about to come under attack. Therefore there was no time pressure to load the magazine whether the first round or rounds thereafter.
I do not believe JB is a liar. I do not believe the evidence by way of ballistics, biological, pathological or psychological supports JB committing the murders.
So you’re saying Sheila supposedly had a psychotic episode, but had the wherewithal to realise she was under pressure to kill them quickly?
And you’re saying that when this psychotic attack supposedly happened out of the blue, Sheila made sure she was “tooled up” with spare cartridges?
Where would she have held these spare cartridges? In her mouth? How many did she think she’d NEED to kill them? Why shoot her sons in the head and face about six times each? Surely one bullet would be enough for someone in a psychotic rage?
Holly, I suggest you go into business with Aunt Agatha ...you and she can tell the courts that the jury got it wrong and you don’t believe Jeremy Bamber is a liar.
Lots of luck!
-
So you’re saying Sheila supposedly had a psychotic episode, but had the wherewithal to realise she was under pressure to kill them quickly?
Where have I even alluded to this? I said whether one believes JB or SC providing the magazine was loaded to full capacity before the victims were aware they were under attack then there was no time pressure thereafter as the wounds June and NB sustained from the first load severeley incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said had other shots not supervened they would have died from the initial wounds.
And you’re saying that when this psychotic attack supposedly happened out of the blue, Sheila made sure she was “tooled up” with spare cartridges?
That's not what I said at all. I said after the first round time was not of the essence.
Where would she have held these spare cartridges? In her mouth? How many did she think she’d NEED to kill them? Why shoot her sons in the head and face about six times each? Surely one bullet would be enough for someone in a psychotic rage?
Holly, I suggest you go into business with Aunt Agatha ...you and she can tell the courts that the jury got it wrong and you don’t believe Jeremy Bamber is a liar.
Lots of luck!
There was no need for anyone to carry cartridges on their person.
The court was told at trial that overkill is often a feature of "altruistic" killings:
90. Dr Bradley, another Consultant Psychiatrist, was also called by the defence during the trial to give general evidence of the features of "altruistic" killings and to confirm that it was not unusual that a female murderer should not have a history of previous violence. He also gave evidence that where parents kill children there may be an element of "over-kill" or the infliction of excessive violence.
-
Acrylic lasts longer yes. But there's no evidence natural nails and the sort of polish commonly used in the mid 80's would break and chip all over the place. If it did what would be the point in drawing attention to the nails by wearing them long and applying bright red polish?
No one is saying they would chip and break all over the place but I imagine that with such nails, women would avoid loading a rifle magazine several times and shooting their family. Another issue - how many people who contemplate suicide, decide to wash clothes?
-
Where have I even alluded to this? I said whether one believes JB or SC providing the magazine was loaded to full capacity before the victims were aware they were under attack then there was no time pressure thereafter as the wounds June and NB sustained from the first load severeley incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said had other shots not supervened they would have died from the initial wounds.
That's not what I said at all. I said after the first round time was not of the essence.
There was no need for anyone to carry cartridges on their person.
The court was told at trial that overkill is often a feature of "altruistic" killings:
90. Dr Bradley, another Consultant Psychiatrist, was also called by the defence during the trial to give general evidence of the features of "altruistic" killings and to confirm that it was not unusual that a female murderer should not have a history of previous violence. He also gave evidence that where parents kill children there may be an element of "over-kill" or the infliction of excessive violence.
Surely the counter balance to 90 is Dr Ferguson who, whilst speaking of how Sheila might react to threats made about the removal of her children -and there is no proof that any such threat was made- believed it to be unlikely under other circumstances?
-
How long did it take you load the mag Holly?
Apparently Sheila did it twice.
-
No one is saying they would chip and break all over the place but I imagine that with such nails, women would avoid loading a rifle magazine several times and shooting their family. Another issue - how many people who contemplate suicide, decide to wash clothes?
What evidence exists that loading the magazine, inserting mag to rifle, cocking the rifle and pulling the trigger is anymore hazardous to nails and polish than other biomechanical movements involved in operating every day items?
Also using the rifle to wield blows on NB. I've played hockey, tennis, squash and golf (ungloved) with long polished nails and I don't recall either the nails or polish chipping or breaking anymore than they would from every day wear and tear.
I think in US where firearms are considered ever day items they would hold very different views about all of this.
-
Any evidence of these photos?
Doubt it, but thought I’d ask...😌
I haven't seen the photos. According to Scott Lomax, he has seen the post mortem photos, and says that Sheila had one broken nail (the right, index finger one) and several chipped nails.
I was partly wrong in what I said before ! Scott says that Sheila did wear false nails, and that Ann had found one that had come off, but he doesn't say that she was necessarily wearing them on the night of the murder. He is disputing whether Sheila did, in fact, have long natural nails--if she did, why did she use false ones?
-
How long did it take you load the mag Holly?
Apparently Sheila did it twice.
Anything? Anything at all?
-
I haven't seen the photos. According to Scott Lomax, he has seen the post mortem photos, and says that Sheila had one broken nail (the right, index finger one) and several chipped nails.
I was partly wrong in what I said before ! Scott says that Sheila did wear false nails, and that Ann had found one that had come off, but he doesn't say that she was necessarily wearing them on the night of the murder. He is disputing whether Sheila did, in fact, have long natural nails--if she did, why did she use false ones?
I don't rate SL's book. The pathologist inspected SC'nails and if she was wearing false nails and or any were broken and/chipped I think he would say as much:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
I've read all 5 books. CAL and Wilkes are best imo but I would still look to confirm their claims with other sources.
-
I haven't seen the photos. According to Scott Lomax, he has seen the post mortem photos, and says that Sheila had one broken nail (the right, index finger one) and several chipped nails.
I was partly wrong in what I said before ! Scott says that Sheila did wear false nails, and that Ann had found one that had come off, but he doesn't say that she was necessarily wearing them on the night of the murder. He is disputing whether Sheila did, in fact, have long natural nails--if she did, why did she use false ones?
I know someone who has also been party to the CS photo's of Sheila's nails, they were natural , very long and unchipped.
-
Anything? Anything at all?
After I wasted a few seconds trying to put the first one in the wrong way I would say about 5 - 10 secs per cartridge but the time was taken retrieving each one from the box. If you were filling it up with the cartridges lying loose somewhere it would be much quicker. Consider a battery lying loose and then inserting it into a TV remote this will give you a good idea but unlike batteries the cartridges all go in the same way round.
As I said whoever you believe responsible, after the first magazine was exhausted June and NB were so severely injured I don't believe time was of the essence for the perp.
-
I haven't seen the photos. According to Scott Lomax, he has seen the post mortem photos, and says that Sheila had one broken nail (the right, index finger one) and several chipped nails.
I was partly wrong in what I said before ! Scott says that Sheila did wear false nails, and that Ann had found one that had come off, but he doesn't say that she was necessarily wearing them on the night of the murder. He is disputing whether Sheila did, in fact, have long natural nails--if she did, why did she use false ones?
I’m sure the pathologist knows the difference between a natural human fingernail to false stuck-on ones, or acrylics.
Lomax jumped on that saying he’d seen a photo showing Sheila having one nail missing, simply because he couldn’t find any photos showing every fingernail. Had he found such a photo, he’d have published it.
Lomax trips himself up constantly....
I know who I believe — and that’s the pathologist.
-
After I wasted a few seconds trying to put the first one in the wrong way I would say about 5 - 10 secs per cartridge but the time was taken retrieving each one from the box. If you were filling it up with the cartridges lying loose somewhere it would be much quicker. Consider a battery lying loose and then inserting it into a TV remote this will give you a good idea but unlike batteries the cartridges all go in the same way round.
As I said whoever you believe responsible, after the first magazine was exhausted June and NB were so severely injured I don't believe time was of the essence for the perp.
That's great, but surely a planned attack would factor in the maximum of 11 rounds before reload is required?
An unplanned attack would mean the opposite - a spur of the moment frenzy - incapacitating the adults with 11 rounds maximum. But June was shot 7 times?
I reckon Bamber had at least one spare, fully loaded mag which he disposed of - maybe in the area where he was supposedly dry-wretching - checking back on himself.
-
Where have I even alluded to this? I said whether one believes JB or SC providing the magazine was loaded to full capacity before the victims were aware they were under attack then there was no time pressure thereafter as the wounds June and NB sustained from the first load severeley incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said had other shots not supervened they would have died from the initial wounds.
That's not what I said at all. I said after the first round time was not of the essence.
There was no need for anyone to carry cartridges on their person.
The court was told at trial that overkill is often a feature of "altruistic" killings:
90. Dr Bradley, another Consultant Psychiatrist, was also called by the defence during the trial to give general evidence of the features of "altruistic" killings and to confirm that it was not unusual that a female murderer should not have a history of previous violence. He also gave evidence that where parents kill children there may be an element of "over-kill" or the infliction of excessive violence.
You said the perp (who we know is Jeremy Bamber) was under time pressure to load the second magazine
Therefore, anyone in a a psychotic rage wouldn’t feel pressurised as they have no sense of time, urgency, or danger.
As for overkill, we all know Jeremy wanted to frame Sheila, hence why he fired bullets into the dead twins heads. He wanted it to look like Sheila had gone mad.
-
You said the perp (who we know is Jeremy Bamber) was under time pressure to load the second magazine
Therefore, anyone in a a psychotic rage wouldn’t feel pressurised as they have no sense of time, urgency, or danger.
As for overkill, we all know Jeremy wanted to frame Sheila, hence why he fired bullets into the dead twins heads. He wanted it to look like Sheila had gone mad.
I never said the perp was under pressure to reload the mag. Why would she be when June and NB were severely incapacitated.
-
It doesn't if you do it properly and apply a topcoat!
Yes it does.
-
The man in the shop just handed me a box of cartridges and the magazine. No instruction was given or asked for. The first cartridge I attempted to load the wrong way and realised immediately it was the other way round which took I guess 10 - 15 secs. Thereafter I guess it was around 5 - 10 secs to load each cartridge. I would liken the task to inserting batteries to a TV remote. There's nothing remotely complicated about it. You would need to suffer severe learning disabilities to find any trouble with it as it's obvious and intuitive. The magazine is designed so you can only insert them the right way so even if you attempt to load them the wrong way as I did you realise in seconds they go the other way.
JB said he left the mag with 8 - 10 cartridges in. But for those who disbelieve JB, the perp would only be time pressured with the first load where the evidence supports June sustaining 6 gsw's and NB 4 gsw's which incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said if other shots hadn't supervened they would have died from these initial gsw's.
Despite numerous times of asking you have refused to say at what point during the murderous proceedings Sheila allegedly stopped her killing spree to reload, which by your own estimate could take over a minute.
-
Despite numerous times of asking you have refused to say at what point during the murderous proceedings Sheila allegedly stopped her killing spree to reload, which by your own estimate could take over a minute.
I have explained numerous times.
-
I have explained numerous times.
No you haven’t, Holly
Explain please?
-
I have explained numerous times.
When? In response to my questions you haven’t! If you can’t be bothered to write it all out again, then post a link to your explanation.
-
No you haven’t, Holly
Explain please?
There was no time pressure with the first load because the victims would not realise they were under attack until they sustained life threatening injuries which severely incapacitated them.
All the physical evidence supports the first load involving ten cartridges: 6 gsw's to June and 4 gsw's to NB. The pathologist said these gsw's would have killed them had others not supervened. June was left to walk around the bed and was eventually immobilised and killed with two gsw's to the head. If she wasn't so badly injured from the first round she would have taken other action. NB made it to the kitchen but was easily overcome. The evidence suggests he fell on a chair in the kitchen where he sustained numerous blows from the rifle. He then sustained 4 gsw's to head which the pathologist said were likely to have been inflicted after he had stopped moving. The 4 gsw's to the head immobilised him immediately resulting in death.
The second and subsequent load(s) did not require the mag being loaded to full capacity and they were not time critical in terms of the victims having an opportunity to overcome the perp when he/she was reloading because they were too badly injured from the first round.
The gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted whilst they were asleep. The pathologist thought all 8 were fired consecutively.
-
There was no time pressure with the first load because the victims would not realise they were under attack until they sustained life threatening injuries which severely incapacitated them.
All the physical evidence supports the first load involving ten cartridges: 6 gsw's to June and 4 gsw's to NB. The pathologist said these gsw's would have killed them had others not supervened. June was left to walk around the bed and was eventually immobilised and killed with two gsw's to the head. If she wasn't so badly injured from the first round she would have taken other action. NB made it to the kitchen but was easily overcome. The evidence suggests he fell on a chair in the kitchen where he sustained numerous blows from the rifle. He then sustained 4 gsw's to head which the pathologist said were likely to have been inflicted after he had stopped moving. The 4 gsw's to the head immobilised him immediately resulting in death.
The second and subsequent load(s) did not require the mag being loaded to full capacity and they were not time critical in terms of the victims having an opportunity to overcome the perp when he/she was reloading because they were too badly injured from the first round.
The gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted whilst they were asleep. The pathologist thought all 8 were fired consecutively.
I thought you were of the view that Nevill Bamber was not hit with any great force?
-
I don't rate SL's book. The pathologist inspected SC'nails and if she was wearing false nails and or any were broken and/chipped I think he would say as much:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
I've read all 5 books. CAL and Wilkes are best imo but I would still look to confirm their claims with other sources.
Thanks Holly!
-
I know someone who has also been party to the CS photo's of Sheila's nails, they were natural , very long and unchipped.
Thanks Caroline!
-
I’m sure the pathologist knows the difference between a natural human fingernail to false stuck-on ones, or acrylics.
Lomax jumped on that saying he’d seen a photo showing Sheila having one nail missing, simply because he couldn’t find any photos showing every fingernail. Had he found such a photo, he’d have published it.
Lomax trips himself up constantly....
I know who I believe — and that’s the pathologist.
Thanks!
-
I don't rate SL's book. The pathologist inspected SC'nails and if she was wearing false nails and or any were broken and/chipped I think he would say as much:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
I've read all 5 books. CAL and Wilkes are best imo but I would still look to confirm their claims with other sources.
When you have the time, Holly, I would be interested to know why you, as a believer in JB's innocence, don't rate SL's book.
-
When you have the time, Holly, I would be interested to know why you, as a believer in JB's innocence, don't rate SL's book.
When I. was a supporter, I didn't rate it either.
-
When I. was a supporter, I didn't rate it either.
Would be interested to know why, Caroline------if you have time, since you (and Holly) know much more about the case than I do.
-
Would be interested to know why, Caroline------if you have time, since you (and Holly) know much more about the case than I do.
Long time since I read it but I have time to do so now. Will have a flick through and jot down some of the stuff I took issue with.
-
Long time since I read it but I have time to do so now. Will have a flick through and jot down some of the stuff I took issue with.
Thanks!
-
I never said the perp was under pressure to reload the mag. Why would she be when June and NB were severely incapacitated.
Why are you accusing Sheila of being the perp when it’s been established that Jeremy Bamber was the perp?
But in answer to your question: if Sheila had of been in a psychotic frenzy, which is what you wish was the case, she’d not have been calm, relaxed, taking her time...she wouldn’t have even been aware who was dead or who was severely injured.
This is going round in circles, it’s all been gone over decades ago...
-
Why are you accusing Sheila of being the perp when it’s been established that Jeremy Bamber was the perp?
But in answer to your question: if Sheila had of been in a psychotic frenzy, which is what you wish was the case, she’d not have been calm, relaxed, taking her time...she wouldn’t have even been aware who was dead or who was severely injured.
This is going round in circles, it’s all been gone over decades ago...
No one is forcing you to go round in circles.
-
I thought you were of the view that Nevill Bamber was not hit with any great force?
He wasn't based on the pathology reports. Or certainly nothing a woman of SC's build was incapable of inflicting.
-
When you have the time, Holly, I would be interested to know why you, as a believer in JB's innocence, don't rate SL's book.
Yes I'll start a new thread to discuss. Off for the daily run shortly.
-
He wasn't based on the pathology reports. Or certainly nothing a woman of SC's build was incapable of inflicting.
That just isn't true and I think you know that.
-
He wasn't based on the pathology reports. Or certainly nothing a woman of SC's build was incapable of inflicting.
Yet hard enough to be completely incapacitated while Sheila spent up to a minute reloading?
-
Yet hard enough to be completely incapacitated while Sheila spent up to a minute reloading?
If we assume that a double-handed jabbing motion was used i.e. one hand somewhere on the barrel and the other somewhere on the stock, with the rifle upside down, I contend that it would be physically impossible for a woman of Sheila's frame to exert enough force to produce such injuries. Particularly given that, at this point, she would have been at the point of exhaustion having over-powered and shot Nevill several times.
And all this and not a speck of any sign of this murderous rampage on her.
AUNTIE AGGIE, get that wet suit out of the garage - it's time!
-
No one is forcing you to go round in circles.
I’m a new member and I can see how it’s going round and round in circles in the couple of months I’ve been here
You’ve been going round in circles for YEARS, Holly...by your own choice!
-
He wasn't based on the pathology reports. Or certainly nothing a woman of SC's build was incapable of inflicting.
You must be the only person who can think Sheila who was very slim, frail and weak, 5”7” and tranquillised could have overpowered Nevill, who was 6”4”, fit, in perfect health, strong as an ox from all the heavy farm work he did daily, and beat him to a pulp exposing his brain.
Perhaps you could arrange a reconstruction of that scenario?
-
If we assume that a double-handed jabbing motion was used i.e. one hand somewhere on the barrel and the other somewhere on the stock, with the rifle upside down, I contend that it would be physically impossible for a woman of Sheila's frame to exert enough force to produce such injuries. Particularly given that, at this point, she would have been at the point of exhaustion having over-powered and shot Nevill several times.
And all this and not a speck of any sign of this murderous rampage on her.
AUNTIE AGGIE, get that wet suit out of the garage - it's time!
Absolutely spot on! 8@??)(
-
You must be the only person who can think Sheila who was very slim, frail and weak, 5”7” and tranquillised could have overpowered Nevill, who was 6”4”, fit, in perfect health, strong as an ox from all the heavy farm work he did daily, and beat him to a pulp exposing his brain.
Perhaps you could arrange a reconstruction of that scenario?
Not only that but for up to a minute she had to stop firing as her gun had run out of ammo!
-
Not only that but for up to a minute she had to stop firing as her gun had run out of ammo!
Twice!
-
Not only that but for up to a minute she had to stop firing as her gun had run out of ammo!
And don’t forget the opportunity he missed when phoning Jeremy Sheila supposedly tore into the kitchen, saw he was on the phone, VERY gently pressed her fingers on the buttons to end the call while holding that long rifle with just ONE hand, and Nevill didn’t make a grab for it!
-
And don’t forget the opportunity he missed when phoning Jeremy Sheila supposedly tore into the kitchen, saw he was on the phone, VERY gently pressed her fingers on the buttons to end the call while holding that long rifle with just ONE hand, and Nevill didn’t make a grab for it!
Maybe future forensic testing will produce results/opinions whereby some people have super strength keratin ?
-
You must be the only person who can think Sheila who was very slim, frail and weak, 5”7” and tranquillised could have overpowered Nevill, who was 6”4”, fit, in perfect health, strong as an ox from all the heavy farm work he did daily, and beat him to a pulp exposing his brain.
Perhaps you could arrange a reconstruction of that scenario?
Also, Vanezis believes that Nevill was punched in the face - had she gotten that close, she would have been easily over-powered.
-
Also, Vanezis believes that Nevill was punched in the face - had she gotten that close, she would have been easily over-powered.
Does he? I seem to have missed that in his evidence.
-
Does he? I seem to have missed that in his evidence.
Then look a little closer! In his court testimony he agreed that injuries (bruising and lacerations) to the face could have been caused from a 'heavy' blow from a fist (or blunt object). June had a black eye and what looked like finger marks around her neck so someone also got close enough to her to make a physical assault. Jeremy claimed the black eye was pre-murders but no one other than him mentioned seeing it.
-
Then look a little closer! In his court testimony he agreed that injuries (bruising and lacerations) to the face could have been caused from a 'heavy' blow from a fist (or blunt object). June had a black eye and what looked like finger marks around her neck so someone also got close enough to her to make a physical assault. Jeremy claimed the black eye was pre-murders but no one other than him mentioned seeing it.
Thanks.
He does not mention this in his statement of May '86 where he is, asked about NB's non gsw' s.
How did he respond under cross examination on this point?
What did the defence pathologist, Prof Knight, have to say about it?
-
Thanks.
He does not mention this in his statement of May '86 where he is, asked about NB's non gsw' s.
How did he respond under cross examination on this point?
What did the defence pathologist, Prof Knight, have to say about it?
He mentions lacerations - at trial he gave an opinion as to how they occurred - so what if he didn't mention it in his statement. If he is asked abou GSW - why would he talk about the other injuries? I have just posted his position as to the blunt trauma injuries, he agreed they could have been caused from a heavy blow from a fist - bust doesn't rule out other blunt objects.
If you want to know what Prof Knight said, you're free to search for his response - if he made one.
-
He mentions lacerations - at trial he gave an opinion as to how they occurred - so what if he didn't mention it in his statement. If he is asked abou GSW - why would he talk about the other injuries? I have just posted his position as to the blunt trauma injuries, he agreed they could have been caused from a heavy blow from a fist - bust doesn't rule out other blunt objects.
If you want to know what Prof Knight said, you're free to search for his response - if he made one.
He was asked to provide a breakdown of NB's wounds both gsw's and non-gsw's. The statement I uploaded covers his response for the non-gsw nose injury.
I thought you said previously NB sustained a broken nose? I don't believe there's any evidence NB''s nose was broken?
Of course trauma from a blunt object covers numerous possibilities but given it is known all the other injuries were also caused by a blunt object and the butt of the rifle was broken and contained blood smears I think it unlikely any fists were involved.
-
He also seems to attribute the injuries to the eyes and nose as coming from one blow.
-
He also seems to attribute the injuries to the eyes and nose as coming from one blow.
Sucker punch!
-
He was asked to provide a breakdown of NB's wounds both gsw's and non-gsw's. The statement I uploaded covers his response for the non-gsw nose injury.
I thought you said previously NB sustained a broken nose? I don't believe there's any evidence NB''s nose was broken?
Of course trauma from a blunt object covers numerous possibilities but given it is known all the other injuries were also caused by a blunt object and the butt of the rifle was broken and contained blood smears I think it unlikely any fists were involved.
42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
-
So was Nevill incapacitated while Sheila was reloading the gun or not?
-
So was Nevill incapacitated while Sheila was reloading the gun or not?
I think if he had been, she wouldn't have felt the need to then shoot him 4 more times in the head.
-
I think if he had been, she wouldn't have felt the need to then shoot him 4 more times in the head.
Which begs the question how did she hold him off while she was re-loading?
-
Then look a little closer! In his court testimony he agreed that injuries (bruising and lacerations) to the face could have been caused from a 'heavy' blow from a fist (or blunt object). June had a black eye and what looked like finger marks around her neck so someone also got close enough to her to make a physical assault. Jeremy claimed the black eye was pre-murders but no one other than him mentioned seeing it.
He doesn't say he believed that Nevill was punched in the face though does he?
-
He doesn't say he believed that Nevill was punched in the face though does he?
How else would you define " injuries to the face could have been caused by a heavy blow from a fist (or a blunt object)"?
-
He doesn't say he believed that Nevill was punched in the face though does he?
He said he believes that he was hit with a blunt object that could be a first or sum'n - what so you think he was hit with? Does he have to state the actual words before you can apply it? AE hasn't actually said she called Jeremy a cuckoo but you latched onto that quick enough. It's clear you don't see any bad in Jeremy and I doubt you will. No matter what evidence is posted you're set on deny mode.
-
How else would you define " injuries to the face could have been caused by a heavy blow from a fist (or a blunt object)"?
Well, because he didn't say "I believe and ONLY believe that this man was punched in the face", it leaves the excuse finders to cast their deny net.
-
Which begs the question how did she hold him off while she was re-loading?
He was shot 4 x's upstairs before sustaining the non gsw's and 4 gsw's to his head downstairs. The 4 gsw's sustained upstairs were very serious and had the downstairs gsw's not supervened the upstairs ones would have killed him. He also lost complete use of his left arm from a gsw upstairs.
Make of it what you will. There are two schools of thought: one think NB was too badly injured upstairs to enter into a 'violent struggle' in the kitchen. The other thinks there was a 'violent struggle' to the extent SC could not have overpowered NB.
-
He said he believes that he was hit with a blunt object that could be a first or sum'n - what so you think he was hit with? Does he have to state the actual words before you can apply it? AE hasn't actually said she called Jeremy a cuckoo but you latched onto that quick enough. It's clear you don't see any bad in Jeremy and I doubt you will. No matter what evidence is posted you're set on deny mode.
You only posted a snippet of the trial testimony. Here's the full transcript about this aspect:
-
He was shot 4 x's upstairs before sustaining the non gsw's and 4 gsw's to his head downstairs. The 4 gsw's sustained upstairs were very serious and had the downstairs gsw's not supervened the upstairs ones would have killed him. He also lost complete use of his left arm from a gsw upstairs.
Make of it what you will. There are two schools of thought: one think NB was too badly injured upstairs to enter into a 'violent struggle' in the kitchen. The other thinks there was a 'violent struggle' to the extent SC could not have overpowered NB.
Your school of thought is that he wasn’t badly beaten downstairs, the signs of a struggle were caused by someone else and Nevill just sat there waiting for Sheila to reload and shoot him?
-
You only posted a snippet of the trial testimony. Here's the full transcript about this aspect:
I don't know what prosecuting counsel was angling at as he talks about a fist and then states:
Given it was a blow from the instrument...
So seems to be saying it was from a blunt instrument.
Regardless Dr Vanezis said in his stat post trial he did not see anything with NB's injuries that a woman of SC's build could not inflict:
Without knowing the sequence of injuries re shot prior to other wounds causing injury to arm, I did not find it surprising that a woman of that build, in possession of a weapon possibly in a deranged state, could cause the injuries present.
-
Your school of thought is that he wasn’t badly beaten downstairs, the signs of a struggle were caused by someone else and Nevill just sat there waiting for Sheila to reload and shoot him?
The pathologist said he thought the downstairs gsw's were sustained when NB had stopped moving.
I think the wounds he sustained upstairs were so serious he was virtually dead by the time he reached the kitchen.
-
Well, because he didn't say "I believe and ONLY believe that this man was punched in the face", it leaves the excuse finders to cast their deny net.
Vanezis agreed, when questioned, that something was possible. You changed that to him believing it happened. I merely pointed out your mistake.
-
The pathologist said he thought the downstairs gsw's were sustained when NB had stopped moving.
I think the wounds he sustained upstairs were so serious he was virtually dead by the time he reached the kitchen.
In all probability these 4 wounds were inflicted after the victim had ceased to struggle because they have been fired in two groups on the same side of the head within a confined area thus indicating that the deceased had not moved substantially after the first wound was received".
-
In all probability these 4 wounds were inflicted after the victim had ceased to struggle because they have been fired in two groups on the same side of the head within a confined area thus indicating that the deceased had not moved substantially after the first wound was received".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
-
The pathologist said he thought the downstairs gsw's were sustained when NB had stopped moving.
I think the wounds he sustained upstairs were so serious he was virtually dead by the time he reached the kitchen.
So there was no violent struggle then? Why, if he was virtually dead was it necessary to beat him up, pull down his trousers and shoot him many more times?
-
So there was no violent struggle then? Why, if he was virtually dead was it necessary to beat him up, pull down his trousers and shoot him many more times?
I don't believe there was a violent struggle. I don't know why NB sustained wounds ftom a blunt instrument and 4 further gsw's to his head. He must have been in a terrible state from the upstairs gsw's.
I think it's generally considered his PJ bottoms fell down rather than someone pulling them down.
-
I don't believe there was a violent struggle. I don't know why NB sustained wounds ftom a blunt instrument and 4 further gsw's to his head. He must have been in a terrible state from the upstairs gsw's.
I think it's generally considered his PJ bottoms fell down rather than someone pulling them down.
Why would his pjs just fall down if there was no struggle?
-
Holly, please answer this:
You think Nevill phoned Jeremy before he was shot, and said Sheila’s going crazy with a gun. In order for him to know she had a gun he would either have had to see her with one or have heard the shots. If he saw her with the gun first, then he must have encountered her downstairs before the shooting had begun, so why did he stay downstairs and not rush up the stairs as soon as he heard the first shot being fired? In fact why did he wait downstairs until all the shooting had finished upstairs, whilst still on the phone waiting for Sheila to come back downstairs and cut the phone off? Ah, but hang on, Nevill did go upstairs and get shot, which must have happened after the phone call that Sheila cut him off during because he wouldn’t have been able to speak after being shot, well why didn’t she shoot him downstairs then, why did she allow him to follow her up the stairs? No, I can’t make any of this make any sense. Help!
-
The pathologist said he thought the downstairs gsw's were sustained when NB had stopped moving.
I think the wounds he sustained upstairs were so serious he was virtually dead by the time he reached the kitchen.
You paint a distressing picture in your post of the events in the kitchen and the degrading way Nevill's body was left lying.
If there was no violent struggle in the kitchen because by that stage Nevill was already out of the game as a result of the gunshot wounds inflicted on him, it gives a glimpse of the utter callousness demonstrated by Jeremy Bamber as he continued beating him to death obviously with vigour.
Which in my opinion would confirm the viciousness and pent up hatred behind each and every one of the blows Jeremy Bamber directed on the head and body of his helpless mortally, wounded father as he raised the gun above his head to rain blows on his helpless father.
I wouldn't imagine the rifle stock would have been easily broken and the force used which propelled Nevill's wristw..ch across the room must have been considerable.
It is easy from a remove to forget just how hideous the slaughter was. It was not a 'clean' kill and the blows levelled on June and Nevill as they died were personal and in conjunction with everything else he did that night gives an insight into the nature of the beast that is Jeremy Bamber.
-
Holly, please answer this:
You think Nevill phoned Jeremy before he was shot, and said Sheila’s going crazy with a gun. In order for him to know she had a gun he would either have had to see her with one or have heard the shots. If he saw her with the gun first, then he must have encountered her downstairs before the shooting had begun, so why did he stay downstairs and not rush up the stairs as soon as he heard the first shot being fired? In fact why did he wait downstairs until all the shooting had finished upstairs, whilst still on the phone waiting for Sheila to come back downstairs and cut the phone off? Ah, but hang on, Nevill did go upstairs and get shot, which must have happened after the phone call that Sheila cut him off during because he wouldn’t have been able to speak after being shot, well why didn’t she shoot him downstairs then, why did she allow him to follow her up the stairs? No, I can’t make any of this make any sense. Help!
There is no sense to it. It is Bamber's narrative, it is fundamentally flawed and it is what caught him out at the finish up.
-
Vanezis agreed, when questioned, that something was possible. You changed that to him believing it happened. I merely pointed out your mistake.
I didn't make a mistake - he believed it was possible - thus he believed it.
-
I don't believe there was a violent struggle. I don't know why NB sustained wounds ftom a blunt instrument and 4 further gsw's to his head. He must have been in a terrible state from the upstairs gsw's.
I think it's generally considered his PJ bottoms fell down rather than someone pulling them down.
Because he was beaten and then when he had no fight left in him, Bamber shot him a further four times in the head. I think Bamber pulled down his PJ bottoms as a last mark of humiliation.
-
Because he was beaten and then when he had no fight left in him, Bamber shot him a further four times in the head. I think Bamber pulled down his PJ bottoms as a last mark of humiliation.
I think so too.
-
I didn't make a mistake - he believed it was possible - thus he believed it.
What he believed was that a blunt object had been used. It could have been a fist, a rifle butt, a hammer, a pool cue or any number of blunt objects. He didn't know which.
-
What he believed was that a blunt object had been used. It could have been a fist, a rifle butt, a hammer, a pool cue or any number of blunt objects. He didn't know which.
Theoretically. However, as there was, apparently, no hammer or pool cue present, it rules them out. Certainly, as the action took place in a kitchen, there might be any number of kitchen implements employed -all probably requiring some sort of search to locate them- none were found, which returns us to the likelihood of it being what we know to have been present, ie a rifle butt and a fist.
-
What he believed was that a blunt object had been used. It could have been a fist, a rifle butt, a hammer, a pool cue or any number of blunt objects. He didn't know which.
Yes, he believed it could have been a fist - he mentions other wouldn't that he believed were caused by the rifle - he distinguished this one! As I said perviously, June also had a black eye which Bamber claimed was there on the day before the murders and yet no other person saw it.
-
Holly, please answer this:
You think Nevill phoned Jeremy before he was shot, and said Sheila’s going crazy with a gun. In order for him to know she had a gun he would either have had to see her with one or have heard the shots. If he saw her with the gun first, then he must have encountered her downstairs before the shooting had begun, so why did he stay downstairs and not rush up the stairs as soon as he heard the first shot being fired? In fact why did he wait downstairs until all the shooting had finished upstairs, whilst still on the phone waiting for Sheila to come back downstairs and cut the phone off? Ah, but hang on, Nevill did go upstairs and get shot, which must have happened after the phone call that Sheila cut him off during because he wouldn’t have been able to speak after being shot, well why didn’t she shoot him downstairs then, why did she allow him to follow her up the stairs? No, I can’t make any of this make any sense. Help!
bump
-
Also, Vanezis believes that Nevill was punched in the face - had she gotten that close, she would have been easily over-powered.
Fabulous point!
So if Holly manages to arrange a reconstruction of the fight in the kitchen, when Sheila supposedly punches Nevill in the face with a punch Tyson would be proud of, that super long rifle would’ve been dangling from her left hand...yeah, that really makes sense.
-
Then look a little closer! In his court testimony he agreed that injuries (bruising and lacerations) to the face could have been caused from a 'heavy' blow from a fist (or blunt object). June had a black eye and what looked like finger marks around her neck so someone also got close enough to her to make a physical assault. Jeremy claimed the black eye was pre-murders but no one other than him mentioned seeing it.
Ooh, so Sheila apparently punched both June and Nevill so hard with her fist and STILL her fingernails never broke....
She must have been like Wonder Woman.
-
Thanks.
He does not mention this in his statement of May '86 where he is, asked about NB's non gsw' s.
How did he respond under cross examination on this point?
What did the defence pathologist, Prof Knight, have to say about it?
You’ve posted just part of Vanezis’ cross-examination, Holly...
We can all cherrypick...
-
He was asked to provide a breakdown of NB's wounds both gsw's and non-gsw's. The statement I uploaded covers his response for the non-gsw nose injury.
I thought you said previously NB sustained a broken nose? I don't believe there's any evidence NB''s nose was broken?
Of course trauma from a blunt object covers numerous possibilities but given it is known all the other injuries were also caused by a blunt object and the butt of the rifle was broken and contained blood smears I think it unlikely any fists were involved.
But June’s black eyes — and marks round her throat — they were obviously caused by a big hand and fist.
-
He doesn't say he believed that Nevill was punched in the face though does he?
Well, he beat him violently enough to cause him to keel over.
However, Nevill couldn’t have just fallen into that position where he was balanced on one leg of the upturned chair...he’d have tumbled over and dropped to the floor.
JB manoeuvred him into that position, and probably pulled his pyjama bottoms down at the same time to humiliate him. It wouldn’t surprise if he attempted to wedge that chair lack up Nevill’s backside. That position was staged, for sure..
-
He was shot 4 x's upstairs before sustaining the non gsw's and 4 gsw's to his head downstairs. The 4 gsw's sustained upstairs were very serious and had the downstairs gsw's not supervened the upstairs ones would have killed him. He also lost complete use of his left arm from a gsw upstairs.
Make of it what you will. There are two schools of thought: one think NB was too badly injured upstairs to enter into a 'violent struggle' in the kitchen. The other thinks there was a 'violent struggle' to the extent SC could not have overpowered NB.
Well, according to Jeremy Bamber Nevill phoned him — from the kitchen. So how did Nevill manage to dial a rotary phone with the use of just one arm — and without his reading glasses? The gsw’s upstairs weren’t fatal and possibly survivable; after all, he did manage to make it downstairs AND put up a tremendous struggle in the kitchen. So much so, they fought over the rifle as Nevill tried to disarm him: Nevill couldn’t have done that with the use of just one arm.
Cases prove that when some people have been shot they’re not always aware they have been. Nevill obviously felt pain in his mouth, and blood would have been pouring out, but the shot to his arm didn’t stop him fighting for his life.
You can try and make it look whatever fits your agenda, but you can’t argue with facts. And the facts are the underside of the mantel proved they’d violently struggled over the rifle...so actually, there’s only one possible school of thought...and that’s just one of the reasons why Jeremy was found GUILTY
-
I don't know what prosecuting counsel was angling at as he talks about a fist and then states:
Given it was a blow from the instrument...
So seems to be saying it was from a blunt instrument.
Regardless Dr Vanezis said in his stat post trial he did not see anything with NB's injuries that a woman of SC's build could not inflict:
Without knowing the sequence of injuries re shot prior to other wounds causing injury to arm, I did not find it surprising that a woman of that build, in possession of a weapon possibly in a deranged state, could cause the injuries present.
No, Holly
Prosecution (and defence) have to cover all angles
At that point in cross-examination prosecution was hypothesising. He’d asked if Nevill could have been punched with a fist, and Venezis said that was possible too.
-
The pathologist said he thought the downstairs gsw's were sustained when NB had stopped moving.
I think the wounds he sustained upstairs were so serious he was virtually dead by the time he reached the kitchen.
So that means he couldn’t have phoned Jeremy...
-
In all probability these 4 wounds were inflicted after the victim had ceased to struggle because they have been fired in two groups on the same side of the head within a confined area thus indicating that the deceased had not moved substantially after the first wound was received".
Given that Jeremy smashed Nevill’s head in, exposing his brain, I’d too say he wasn’t moving at that stage, Holly
Jeremy just fired more bullets into Nevill in the kitchen, as he realised the police would never have believed Sheila could have beat him to death with her fists. He HAD to shoot him downstairs.
His “perfect murder” was already going pear-shaped...
-
So there was no violent struggle then? Why, if he was virtually dead was it necessary to beat him up, pull down his trousers and shoot him many more times?
8@??)(
-
Holly, please answer this:
You think Nevill phoned Jeremy before he was shot, and said Sheila’s going crazy with a gun. In order for him to know she had a gun he would either have had to see her with one or have heard the shots. If he saw her with the gun first, then he must have encountered her downstairs before the shooting had begun, so why did he stay downstairs and not rush up the stairs as soon as he heard the first shot being fired? In fact why did he wait downstairs until all the shooting had finished upstairs, whilst still on the phone waiting for Sheila to come back downstairs and cut the phone off? Ah, but hang on, Nevill did go upstairs and get shot, which must have happened after the phone call that Sheila cut him off during because he wouldn’t have been able to speak after being shot, well why didn’t she shoot him downstairs then, why did she allow him to follow her up the stairs? No, I can’t make any of this make any sense. Help!
Ahhhhh.....fabulous post VS!
Hw can anyone wriggle out of THAT?! 8((()*/
-
You paint a distressing picture in your post of the events in the kitchen and the degrading way Nevill's body was left lying.
If there was no violent struggle in the kitchen because by that stage Nevill was already out of the game as a result of the gunshot wounds inflicted on him, it gives a glimpse of the utter callousness demonstrated by Jeremy Bamber as he continued beating him to death obviously with vigour.
Which in my opinion would confirm the viciousness and pent up hatred behind each and every one of the blows Jeremy Bamber directed on the head and body of his helpless mortally, wounded father as he raised the gun above his head to rain blows on his helpless father.
I wouldn't imagine the rifle stock would have been easily broken and the force used which propelled Nevill's wristw..ch across the room must have been considerable.
It is easy from a remove to forget just how hideous the slaughter was. It was not a 'clean' kill and the blows levelled on June and Nevill as they died were personal and in conjunction with everything else he did that night gives an insight into the nature of the beast that is Jeremy Bamber.
Spot on!
-
Spot on!
It isn't spot on at all. Its full of conjecture and factually incorrect.
The pathologist made clear he was unable to gauge the degree of force used to cause the non gsw injuries other than one that resulted in a laceration and severe superficial skin injury without underlying fractures which he said involved considerable force from a light object. I'm a petite female and hit golf balls with considerable force using a light object.
Where's the evidence for NB's watch coming off as a result of injuries sustained? NB did not sustain any non-gsw injuries to his left arm and the non-gsw to his right arm was restricted to his forearm. The watch was found near the kitchen sink under a rug.
-
It isn't spot on at all. Its full of conjecture and factually incorrect.
The pathologist made clear he was unable to gauge the degree of force used to cause the non gsw injuries other than one that resulted in a laceration and severe superficial skin injury without underlying fractures which he said involved considerable force from a light object. I'm a petite female and hit golf balls with considerable force using a light object.
Where's the evidence for NB's watch coming off as a result of injuries sustained? NB did not sustain any non-gsw injuries to his left arm and the non-gsw to his right arm was restricted to his forearm. The watch was found near the kitchen sink under a rug.
He was "unable to gauge the degree of force used" in one sentence but in the next sentence he described the force as "considerable"?
Where in his dialogue does he state that the injury was caused by considerable force with a light object? He also agreed that it could have been caused by a heavy blow from a first or a lighter blow from a heavy object. I'm surprised G-Unit wasn't all over your posr like she ws mine ....... oh hang on, she's a supporter so would miss these little 'nuances'.
-
It isn't spot on at all. Its full of conjecture and factually incorrect.
The pathologist made clear he was unable to gauge the degree of force used to cause the non gsw injuries other than one that resulted in a laceration and severe superficial skin injury without underlying fractures which he said involved considerable force from a light object. I'm a petite female and hit golf balls with considerable force using a light object.
Where's the evidence for NB's watch coming off as a result of injuries sustained? NB did not sustain any non-gsw injuries to his left arm and the non-gsw to his right arm was restricted to his forearm. The watch was found near the kitchen sink under a rug.
In my opinion your denial belittles the horrible, violent death which was meted out to Nevill Bamber and you underestimate the force of the violence used to beat him up like a punch bag but with a long blunt weapon, most likely the gun used to wipe out him and his family.
Unless Nevill made it a practice to leave his watch near the kitchen sink under a rug … how else would you explain how it came to be there in any way other than as a result of the sustained violation of his body as outlined by the list of the injuries inflicted on him.
-
In my opinion your denial belittles the horrible, violent death which was meted out to Nevill Bamber and you underestimate the force of the violence used to beat him up like a punch bag but with a long blunt weapon, most likely the gun used to wipe out him and his family.
Unless Nevill made it a practice to leave his watch near the kitchen sink under a rug … how else would you explain how it came to be there in any way other than as a result of the sustained violation of his body as outlined by the list of the injuries inflicted on him.
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
I'm not going to speculate about how NB's watch came to be near the kitchen sink under a rug. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. So no I don't believe he was wearing his watch which somehow came off when he sustained injuries from a blunt instrument.
-
A fractured skull = broken bones, does it not?
-
He was "unable to gauge the degree of force used" in one sentence but in the next sentence he described the force as "considerable"?
Where in his dialogue does he state that the injury was caused by considerable force with a light object? He also agreed that it could have been caused by a heavy blow from a first or a lighter blow from a heavy object. I'm surprised G-Unit wasn't all over your posr like she ws mine ....... oh hang on, she's a supporter so would miss these little 'nuances'.
The fist only came into it through a question put to him by prosecuting counsel at trial.
In a report he produced during May '86 which is in the library here.
Not sure why you're bringing G-Unit into it who is new to the case?
-
A fractured skull = broken bones, does it not?
Most skull fractures will heal by themselves.
I was really meaning NB did not sustain a broken arm that would require going into plaster to reset.
-
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
A fractured skull = broken bones, does it not?
Most skull fractures will heal by themselves.
I was really meaning NB did not sustain a broken arm that would require going into plaster to reset.
After death ?
Explain your logic & reasoning here
-
That just isn't true and I think you know that.
What isn't true?
-
What isn't true?
That Nevill wasn't hit with any great force.
-
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
I'm not going to speculate about how NB's watch came to be near the kitchen sink under a rug. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. So no I don't believe he was wearing his watch which somehow came off when he sustained injuries from a blunt instrument.
Having been shot twice, I wonder how you would describe being subjected to the same blunt force trauma inflicted most likely by a rifle barrel as Nevill was.
I don't know if you have grasped how ridiculous it is to post that a fractured skull is not a broken bone when it patently is.
I am surprised that you find yourself unable to concede that Nevill's watch landed where it was as a result of the attack in the kitchen as much of the opinions you post are in my opinion exactly that ... speculation.
-
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
I'm not going to speculate about how NB's watch came to be near the kitchen sink under a rug. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. So no I don't believe he was wearing his watch which somehow came off when he sustained injuries from a blunt instrument.
I can't believe you have written that Holly but see the following for clarity on what a fractured skull is;
https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/injuries-and-poisoning/head-injuries/skull-fracture
-
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
I'm not going to speculate about how NB's watch came to be near the kitchen sink under a rug. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. So no I don't believe he was wearing his watch which somehow came off when he sustained injuries from a blunt instrument.
You appear to be totally dismissive of the injuries inflicted on, and suffered by, the victims. It sounds as if you're saying, of Nevill, that as his injuries weren't THAT serious, he was only a bit dead.
-
You appear to be totally dismissive of the injuries inflicted on, and suffered by, the victims. It sounds as if you're saying, of Nevill, that as his injuries weren't THAT serious, he was only a bit dead.
As ‘dismissive’ as you appeared to me to be when using the term Hybristophilia and women attracted to Bamber?
-
I can't believe you have written that Holly but see the following for clarity on what a fractured skull is;
https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/injuries-and-poisoning/head-injuries/skull-fracture
Was the fracture caused by the beating or the bullet, or was it not possible to say?
-
Hybristophilia is the term for women who are attracted to those behind bars. His, one time, "Hooray Henry" looks would have been a huge attraction -and to some, evidence of his innocence- and an enticement to help him in any way possible.
Hybristophilia is a paraphilia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybristophilia
-
It isn't spot on at all. Its full of conjecture and factually incorrect.
The pathologist made clear he was unable to gauge the degree of force used to cause the non gsw injuries other than one that resulted in a laceration and severe superficial skin injury without underlying fractures which he said involved considerable force from a light object. I'm a petite female and hit golf balls with considerable force using a light object.
Where's the evidence for NB's watch coming off as a result of injuries sustained? NB did not sustain any non-gsw injuries to his left arm and the non-gsw to his right arm was restricted to his forearm. The watch was found near the kitchen sink under a rug.
I hope Caroline doesn’t mind, but I’ve taken the liberty of copying her reply to you as she explains all the points you deny so perfectly:
“
He was "unable to gauge the degree of force used" in one sentence but in the next sentence he described the force as "considerable"?
Where in his dialogue does he state that the injury was caused by considerable force with a light object? He also agreed that it could have been caused by a heavy blow from a first or a lighter blow from a heavy object. I'm surprised G-Unit wasn't all over your posr like she ws mine ....... oh hang on, she's a supporter so would miss these little 'nuances'.
”
There are titbits I could add, but I’m becoming weary of explaining the obvious to you, Holly, as you seem to either dismiss it because you’re not capable of replying; or perhaps you don’t quite understand...
One quick thing: Nevill’s watch was found (broken strap) yards from his body, and it doesn’t take much logic to realise it flew off in the violent struggle. And it must have been extremely violent for it to fly across the room.
By the way, why are you stating things that aren’t correct?
People can see what you’re doing...
-
Most skull fractures will heal by themselves.
I was really meaning NB did not sustain a broken arm that would require going into plaster to reset.
You clearly know as much about medicine as you do law, Holly...
Some of your posts make ME feel embarrassed for you
-
What makes you think I know more than the pathologist who carried out the pm's who was unable to gauge the force used for all except one. I uploaded his report for you. Did NB sustain broken bones? No. His skull was fractured and the other wounds amounted to abrasions, bruises and lacerations all of which JB or SC could have inflicted using a blunt object.
I'm not going to speculate about how NB's watch came to be near the kitchen sink under a rug. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. So no I don't believe he was wearing his watch which somehow came off when he sustained injuries from a blunt instrument.
At last, we’re getting somewhere!
You’ve written what the pathologist reported, and you wrote:
“But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. [/]”
So now you’ve admitted that Nevill sustained the gunshot wounds to his left arm UPSTAIRS, making it totally impaired, he could only fight for his life with just his right arm — hence why it was that arm which received few (if any) wounds as he was fighting for the rifle with it.
You’ve also finally admitted, albeit unwittingly, that Nevill was first shot upstairs — which throws all your arguments, such as: “Nevill wasn’t wounded/shot upstairs before he went to phone Jeremy from the kitchen”.
You’ve scored an own goal, Holly.
-
At last, we’re getting somewhere!
You’ve written what the pathologist reported, and you wrote:
. But what I do know is that he didn't sustain any wounds to his left arm, which was totally impaired from the gsw's sustained upstairs, and the wounds on his right arm were restricted to the ulna region. [/
So now you’ve admitted that Nevill sustained the gunshot wounds to his right arm UPSTAIRS, making it totally impaired, he could only fight for his life with just his left arm — hence why it was that arm which received few (if any) wounds as he was fighting for the rifle with it.
You’ve also finally admitted, albeit unwittingly, that Nevill was first shot upstairs — which throws all your arguments, such as: “Nevill wasn’t wounded/shot upstairs before he went to phone Jeremy from the kitchen”.
You’ve scored an own goal, Holly.
I think you misread. It was Nevill Bamber's left arm which was injured upstairs, so he was only able to fight with his right arm. Also, he could have used the phone, gone upstairs and been shot and returned downstairs again. Four of the cartridge cases upstairs were from shots at Nevill.
-
Most skull fractures will heal by themselves.
I was really meaning NB did not sustain a broken arm that would require going into plaster to reset.
Not when their brain is exposed.
Severe fracture often requires steel plates if the surgeons need to operate and open the skull.
Skull fractures are serious, Holly...even minor ones can be deadly.
Any skull fracture that exposes the brain means that it’d been hit with immense force, and obviously, it’d be fatal.
-
I think you misread. It was Nevill Bamber's left arm which was injured upstairs, so he was only able to fight with his right arm. Also, he could have used the phone, gone upstairs and been shot and returned downstairs again. Four of the cartridge cases upstairs were from shots at Nevill.
Thank you, G-Unit.
No, I didn’t misread — I mistyped. I’ve corrected it now so as not to cause confusion.
However, what I’ve said still applies: Holly has admitted that Nevill was first shot upstairs.
You’re now trying to suggest that Nevill came down the stairs TWICE... &%%6
-
There was no time pressure with the first load because the victims would not realise they were under attack until they sustained life threatening injuries which severely incapacitated them.
All the physical evidence supports the first load involving ten cartridges: 6 gsw's to June and 4 gsw's to NB. The pathologist said these gsw's would have killed them had others not supervened. June was left to walk around the bed and was eventually immobilised and killed with two gsw's to the head. If she wasn't so badly injured from the first round she would have taken other action. NB made it to the kitchen but was easily overcome. The evidence suggests he fell on a chair in the kitchen where he sustained numerous blows from the rifle. He then sustained 4 gsw's to head which the pathologist said were likely to have been inflicted after he had stopped moving. The 4 gsw's to the head immobilised him immediately resulting in death.
The second and subsequent load(s) did not require the mag being loaded to full capacity and they were not time critical in terms of the victims having an opportunity to overcome the perp when he/she was reloading because they were too badly injured from the first round.
The gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted whilst they were asleep. The pathologist thought all 8 were fired consecutively.
Holly, given that you believe Nevill was downstairs with Sheila when she picked up the gun could you please explain what you mean by the bit I’ve highlighted above?
-
Thank you, G-Unit.
No, I didn’t misread — I mistyped. I’ve corrected it now so as not to cause confusion.
However, what I’ve said still applies: Holly has admitted that Nevill was first shot upstairs.
You’re now trying to suggest that Nevill came down the stairs TWICE... &%%6
No-one knows what happened that night. You're assuming that Nevill went to bed, but if he was still downstairs then he went upstairs once and came down again.
-
No-one knows what happened that night. You're assuming that Nevill went to bed, but if he was still downstairs then he went upstairs once and came down again.
He was a farmer wasn’t he? Aren’t they early to bed early to rise types?
-
He was a farmer wasn’t he? Aren’t they early to bed early to rise types?
Any with livestock are.
In my experience the main farm kitchen is a hive of activity almost from first light with everyone passing through to receive their instructions etc for the day ahead.
-
He was a farmer wasn’t he? Aren’t they early to bed early to rise types?
Are they? The farmer who farmed the land around where I lived harvested until all hours. I've seen him at 2am with lights on the machines still working away. The sheep farmer up the road got very little sleep at lambing time.
As to Nevill Bamber he was seen by Len Foalkes at 10.30pm still working on the tractor in the field [CAL page 158]. He still had his evening routine to fulfil; take the dogs out, settle the labrador in the barn and take a shower downstairs. Then he would sit in the living room with a drink and a cigarette before bed.
-
Are they? The farmer who farmed the land around where I lived harvested until all hours. I've seen him at 2am with lights on the machines still working away. The sheep farmer up the road got very little sleep at lambing time.
As to Nevill Bamber he was seen by Len Foalkes at 10.30pm still working on the tractor in the field [CAL page 158]. He still had his evening routine to fulfil; take the dogs out, settle the labrador in the barn and take a shower downstairs. Then he would sit in the living room with a drink and a cigarette before bed.
OK, he was downstairs with Sheila then when she decided to take the gun and attach the magazine, witnessed by himself. She did not shoot him then (why not?) and he did not try and stop her going upstairs with it (why not?), instead he calls his son, who takes how long to answer the phone, considering he is supposedly fast asleep upstairs in his bedroom while the phone is downstairs, meanwhile it seems to be taking equally as long upstairs for Sheila to decide to start shooting, Nevill drops the phone when the first shot is fired but for some reason when Jeremy calls back immediately he gets an engaged signal. Yes, that all seems very plausible I’m sure.
-
OK, he was downstairs with Sheila then when she decided to take the gun and attach the magazine, witnessed by himself. She did not shoot him then (why not?) and he did not try and stop her going upstairs with it (why not?), instead he calls his son, who takes how long to answer the phone, considering he is supposedly fast asleep upstairs in his bedroom while the phone is downstairs, meanwhile it seems to be taking equally as long upstairs for Sheila to decide to start shooting, Nevill drops the phone when the first shot is fired but for some reason when Jeremy calls back immediately he gets an engaged signal. Yes, that all seems very plausible I’m sure.
That's just the point. We don't know how things developed so there's no point in anyone pretending they do know. Sheila could have taken the gun and opened fire upstairs while Nevill was outside collecting that last wagon load for all we know.
-
That's just the point. We don't know how things developed so there's no point in anyone pretending they do know. Sheila could have taken the gun and opened fire upstairs while Nevill was outside collecting that last wagon load for all we know.
No she couldn’t. Think about it.
-
“There was no time pressure with the first load because the victims would not realise they were under attack until they sustained life threatening injuries which severely incapacitated them”.
Holly, given that you believe Nevill was downstairs with Sheila when she picked up the gun could you please explain what you mean by the bit I’ve highlighted above?
Bump.
-
No-one knows what happened that night. You're assuming that Nevill went to bed, but if he was still downstairs then he went upstairs once and came down again.
Your assumption is nonsense.
Had Nevill still been downstairs he’d have seen and heard Jeremy climbing through the window FGS, and asked what the hell he was doing?!
Stop clutching at straws
-
He was a farmer wasn’t he? Aren’t they early to bed early to rise types?
Nevill was usually in bed by 9:30pm, by all accounts.
June went later at 10pm
-
OK, he was downstairs with Sheila then when she decided to take the gun and attach the magazine, witnessed by himself. She did not shoot him then (why not?) and he did not try and stop her going upstairs with it (why not?), instead he calls his son, who takes how long to answer the phone, considering he is supposedly fast asleep upstairs in his bedroom while the phone is downstairs, meanwhile it seems to be taking equally as long upstairs for Sheila to decide to start shooting, Nevill drops the phone when the first shot is fired but for some reason when Jeremy calls back immediately he gets an engaged signal. Yes, that all seems very plausible I’m sure.
8@??)( 8@??)(
-
That's just the point. We don't know how things developed so there's no point in anyone pretending they do know. Sheila could have taken the gun and opened fire upstairs while Nevill was outside collecting that last wagon load for all we know.
So why would Nevill wait until 3:25am to phone Jeremy?
-
Are they? The farmer who farmed the land around where I lived harvested until all hours. I've seen him at 2am with lights on the machines still working away. The sheep farmer up the road got very little sleep at lambing time.
As to Nevill Bamber he was seen by Len Foalkes at 10.30pm still working on the tractor in the field [CAL page 158]. He still had his evening routine to fulfil; take the dogs out, settle the labrador in the barn and take a shower downstairs. Then he would sit in the living room with a drink and a cigarette before bed.
That was unusual, though.
Jeremy was too lazy to collect the last harvest that night and went home early, leaving Nevill to do it. That’s probably why Nevill was grouchy when his secretary called...Jeremy had let him down, yet again.
-
So why would Nevill wait until 3:25am to phone Jeremy?
More to the point, how do we know any of it happened within the time-frame planted in our minds by Jeremy? Much has been made previously, of how it was impossible for Jeremy to influence what police were thinking and, subsequently, their actions, but it seems to me that we're doing exactly the same as did they, allowing Jeremy's words to direct out thinking.
-
More to the point, how do we know any of it happened within the time-frame planted in our minds by Jeremy? Much has been made previously, of how it was impossible for Jeremy to influence what police were thinking and, subsequently, their actions, but it seems to me that we're doing exactly the same as did they, allowing Jeremy's words to direct out thinking.
Very good point,a guilty mans word at that.
-
More to the point, how do we know any of it happened within the time-frame planted in our minds by Jeremy? Much has been made previously, of how it was impossible for Jeremy to influence what police were thinking and, subsequently, their actions, but it seems to me that we're doing exactly the same as did they, allowing Jeremy's words to direct out thinking.
Fair point, but we don't really have much choice, as Jeremy is the only person alive who knows what did or didn't go on that night.
-
Fair point, but we don't really have much choice, as Jeremy is the only person alive who knows what did or didn't go on that night.
Exactly so, Mrswah!!! He was free to embroider as he chose. The police didn't know him. They had no alternatives to the information he gave them. Ann was first alerted because she heard him saying things she said were untrue.
-
That's just the point. We don't know how things developed so there's no point in anyone pretending they do know. Sheila could have taken the gun and opened fire upstairs while Nevill was outside collecting that last wagon load for all we know.
But how would this fit with JB's claim of a tel call from NB at circa 3.30 am?
I was rereading CC's wit stat which states when he stayed at WHF NB went to bed at 9.30 pm to 10 pm. As you've recently recited from CAL, LF saw NB on the farm at 10.30 pm. As it was harvest time I guess he would be up again early in the morning so it stands to reason he would want to get to bed ASAP after coming in.
I think he did go to bed as there's an indentation on his pillow and I think the housekeeper had been in that day. Either way I doubt the Bamber's were slovenly in that they didn't shake bed pillows and make beds on a daily basis if the housekeeper wasn't around.
If you read CC's wit stat he states as above re NB and that June went to bed after him and SC anytime. We know PB called at circa 10 pm and according to her SC was on her way to bed.
We know for sure June went to bed as her head was on her pillow when she sustained gsw's in the first episode evidenced by two bullets embedded in the pillow which correspond with wounds along with the blood stains.
I'm inclined to think the Bamber's put uncomfortable truths to SC re her future. Unable to sleep she either sought out NB or he was disturbed in some way by her moving about and the pair ended up downstairs.
I'll start a new thread about the possibilities of arguments/disagreements.
-
Fair point, but we don't really have much choice, as Jeremy is the only person alive who knows what did or didn't go on that night.
He is the last person we need to rely on.
-
But how would this fit with JB's claim of a tel call from NB at circa 3.30 am?
I was rereading CC's wit stat which states when he stayed at WHF NB went to bed at 9.30 pm to 10 pm. As you've recently recited from CAL, LF saw NB on the farm at 10.30 pm. As it was harvest time I guess he would be up again early in the morning so it stands to reason he would want to get to bed ASAP after coming in.
I think he did go to bed as there's an indentation on his pillow and I think the housekeeper had been in that day. Either way I doubt the Bamber's were slovenly in that they didn't shake bed pillows and make beds on a daily basis if the housekeeper wasn't around.
If you read CC's wit stat he states as above re NB and that June went to bed after him and SC anytime. We know PB called at circa 10 pm and according to her SC was on her way to bed.
We know for sure June went to bed as her head was on her pillow when she sustained gsw's in the first episode evidenced by two bullets embedded in the pillow which correspond with wounds along with the blood stains.
I'm inclined to think the Bamber's put uncomfortable truths to SC re her future. Unable to sleep she either sought out NB or he was disturbed in some way by her moving about and the pair ended up downstairs.
I'll start a new thread about the possibilities of arguments/disagreements.
The only reason why Nevill was in the filed is because Jeremy didn't complete his workload. I think the uncomfortable truths were given to Jeremy and that's why he chose that night.
We don't know Nevill went to bed, the Bambers weren't house proud and I doubt an unfluffed pillow would have been a worry.
-
More to the point, how do we know any of it happened within the time-frame planted in our minds by Jeremy? Much has been made previously, of how it was impossible for Jeremy to influence what police were thinking and, subsequently, their actions, but it seems to me that we're doing exactly the same as did they, allowing Jeremy's words to direct out thinking.
We all know Nevill rang Jeremy — I was simply asking G-Unit (who believes every word JB says) — that if Sheila had shot everyone while Nevill was outside at 10:30pm, he wouldn’t have waited until 3:25am to call Jeremy...but I know you know that :)
JB certainly doesn’t direct my thinking — I don’t believe ONE word he says.
-
The only reason why Nevill was in the filed is because Jeremy didn't complete his workload. I think the uncomfortable truths were given to Jeremy and that's why he chose that night.
We don't know Nevill went to bed, the Bambers weren't house proud and I doubt an unfluffed pillow would have been a worry.
I definitely think Nevill went to bed
He had his pyjamas on, and you keep those in the bedroom
His socks were on the floor too, which sounds to me that as he’d worked later than normal that night, possibly up to 11:30pm by the time he’d finished on the farm, taken the dogs out etc, he was possibly too knackered to have his usual evening shower and G&T, so decided to have a shower in the morning instead, went upstairs, pulled his socks off, put his pyjamas on and fell asleep immediately.
The PM showed no alcohol in his system, either...so I think he just went straight to bed.
-
We all know Nevill rang Jeremy — I was simply asking G-Unit (who believes every word JB says) — that if Sheila had shot everyone while Nevill was outside at 10:30pm, he wouldn’t have waited until 3:25am to call Jeremy...but I know you know that :)
JB certainly doesn’t direct my thinking — I don’t believe ONE word he says.
If Sheila had gone upstairs, crazy and with a gun while Nevill was outside, when he came inside how would he have known Sheila was upstairs with a gun when he phoned Jeremy to say as much? Even if he heard shots and then phoned Jeremy why would he assume it was Sheila if he never saw her take the gun? I’m afraid G-Unit’s reasoning has let her down big time on this one.
-
If Sheila had gone upstairs, crazy and with a gun while Nevill was outside, when he came inside how would he have known Sheila was upstairs with a gun when he phoned Jeremy to say as much? Even if he heard shots and then phoned Jeremy why would he assume it was Sheila if he never saw her take the gun? I’m afraid G-Unit’s reasoning has let her down big time on this one.
My point was that no-one knows what happened, no-one knows who was where, so any speculation is viable.
-
My point was that no-one knows what happened, no-one knows who was where, so any speculation is viable.
But to speculate that he was outside loading a wagon in his PJ’s and barefoot at 3am while Sheila was upstairs going crazy with a gun simply is not, and nor for that matter is the scenario Holly paints, unless you can demonstrate how.
-
My point was that no-one knows what happened, no-one knows who was where, so any speculation is viable.
The murderer knows what happened and he is behind bars, thankfully. Any speculation that he is not the murderer is just that - speculation, something which apparently you frown upon.
-
Hmm, explaining how Sheila did it really does seem to be a problem doesn’t it?
-
Hmm, explaining how Sheila did it really does seem to be a problem doesn’t it?
Not ONE of his couple of staunch supporters have come up with an answer...they just start new threads or sidestep the question.
-
Not ONE of his couple of staunch supporters have come up with an answer...they just start new threads or sidestep the question.
I’ve noticed.
-
But to speculate that he was outside loading a wagon in his PJ’s and barefoot at 3am while Sheila was upstairs going crazy with a gun simply is not, and nor for that matter is the scenario Holly paints, unless you can demonstrate how.
Who said Nevill was outside barefoot in his PJ's at 3am? You did, not me. He was outside fully dressed at 10.30pm.
-
Who said Nevill was outside barefoot in his PJ's at 3am? You did, not me. He was outside fully dressed at 10.30pm.
You suggested that Nevill may have been outside loading the wagon when Sheila came downstairs and seized the gun unseen, and that he was downstairs when she started going crazy, so when did he change into his PJs - before or after he phoned Bamber?
-
That's just the point. We don't know how things developed so there's no point in anyone pretending they do know. Sheila could have taken the gun and opened fire upstairs while Nevill was outside collecting that last wagon load for all we know.
Just to remind you, this is what you said. You have Sheila opening fire while Nevill was outside. Do you think he came back in and asked Sheila to cease fire while he got ready for bed?
-
Just to remind you, this is what you said. You have Sheila opening fire while Nevill was outside. Do you think he came back in and asked Sheila to cease fire while he got ready for bed?
Maybe G-Unit will say he stepped over June’s body and told Sheila to quieten down while he picked up his pyjamas and took his socks off, then strolled downstairs for a shower...
-
Due to the current activity levels on the board we need to maintain the following rule set out on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
Going forward I will be removing all posts that are off topic.
Thanks.
-
Due to the current activity levels on the board we need to maintain the following rule set out on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
Going forward I will be removing all posts that are off topic.
Thanks.
How convenient for G-Unit.