Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 06:30:48 PM
Title: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 06:30:48 PM
According to some on this forum the case hinges on three door moves (pardon the pun). These are presumably three varying descriptions of the position of the door to Madeleine's bedroom in the witness statements, witnesses who have already been written off by the same people as unreliable at best, bare faced liars at worst. Can you people really envisage justice being brought to bear on the McCanns based in part on their descriptions regarding the exact door position that night? Is this the killer piece of evidence the police have been overlooking for the last 7 years?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: slartibartfast on October 13, 2014, 08:01:53 PM
According to some on this forum the case hinges on three door moves (pardon the pun). These are presumably three varying descriptions of the position of the door to Madeleine's bedroom in the witness statements, witnesses who have already been written off by the same people as unreliable at best, bare faced liars at worst. Can you people really envisage justice being brought to bear on the McCanns based in part on their descriptions regarding the exact door position that night? Is this the killer piece of evidence the police have been overlooking for the last 7 years?
Nope, just something to add to the probability equation.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 08:15:19 PM
According to some on this forum the case hinges on three door moves (pardon the pun). These are presumably three varying descriptions of the position of the door to Madeleine's bedroom in the witness statements, witnesses who have already been written off by the same people as unreliable at best, bare faced liars at worst. Can you people really envisage justice being brought to bear on the McCanns based in part on their descriptions regarding the exact door position that night? Is this the killer piece of evidence the police have been overlooking for the last 7 years?
8:30 ajar
9 half-open (first move)
Moved back to ajar
9:30 half-open (second move)
9:52 wide open (third move)
A door that never moved. My theory is it was always half-open as Matt found it. Not even a draught in that apartment according to Matt who wasn't supposed to do that check. His check wasunforeseen &%+((£
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 13, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
A door that never moved. It was always half-open as Matt found it. Not even a draught in that apartment according to Matt who wasn't supposed to do that check. His check was unforeseen &%+((£
Gerry does his first visual check of the week, because that door had moved.
Kate wouldn't have looked in if not for the door having been moved.
The first heavy draught of the week perhaps, that fell still again for Matt ?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2014, 08:38:13 PM
It wasn't three times, it was twice.
First time when Gerry checked at nine-ish. He pulled it to.
Second time when Matt checked. He didn't alter the position of the door.
So when Kate checked it was as Matt had left it.
This could be explained by the abductor hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked and pulled the door to, and the abductor then opening it again when he left, and before Matt checked.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
A door that never moved. My theory is it was always half-open as Matt found it. Not even a draught in that apartment according to Matt who wasn't supposed to do that check. His check wasunforeseen &%+((£
Would you care to tell us the difference between half open and ajar?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
According to some on this forum the case hinges on three door moves (pardon the pun). These are presumably three varying descriptions of the position of the door to Madeleine's bedroom in the witness statements, witnesses who have already been written off by the same people as unreliable at best, bare faced liars at worst. Can you people really envisage justice being brought to bear on the McCanns based in part on their descriptions regarding the exact door position that night? Is this the killer piece of evidence the police have been overlooking for the last 7 years?
Nothing wrong with the pun Alfred … as puns go it is excellent. 8@??)(
Don’t know if “the three door moves” is the “smoking gun” which has been eagerly anticipated for years.
Or could it be the missing “Ace up the sleeve”? Don't hear much about those shibboleths these days do we?
Ahhh ... but what have we here? Mind boggling that the significance of ‘the three door moves’ has been overlooked for so long.
Now there is a real mystery ... ... ... is there?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 13, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
First time when Gerry checked at nine-ish. He pulled it to.
Second time when Matt checked. He didn't alter the position of the door.
So when Kate checked it was as Matt had left it.
This could be explained by the abductor hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked and pulled the door to, and the abductor then opening it again when he left, and before Matt checked.
Depends which version of the 'truth' you want to believe.
When did he open the window shutters then?
Didn't he drug the twins while he was there aswell?
Kate seemed to think so.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2014, 08:58:49 PM
First time when Gerry checked at nine-ish. He pulled it to.
Second time when Matt checked. He didn't alter the position of the door.
So when Kate checked it was as Matt had left it.
This could be explained by the abductor hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked and pulled the door to, and the abductor then opening it again when he left, and before Matt checked.
No Kate said WIDE open not half in her statement.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2014, 09:00:32 PM
I don't remember Matt saying how wide open the door was. Did he? And what is wide open? And who said half open? If it was Gerry then that could have altered when the abductor left. I don't suppose he would have been paying attention to where the door was.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2014, 09:10:55 PM
I don't remember Matt saying how wide open the door was. Did he? And what is wide open? And who said half open? If it was Gerry then that could have altered when the abductor left. I don't suppose he would have been paying attention to where the door was.
They all did.
Matt > 4.30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=na4aBr5PTYY#t=270
Kate > 0.10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw&feature=player_detailpage#t=5
It means that until hard evidence is found either way, then all we have is the probability of each discrepancy/question having an innocent versus implicating cause. The probability equation takes the combined probability of all the innocent causes and all the implicating causes to produce an overall innocent or implicating probability. Simple probability.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2014, 09:15:25 PM
There is no precise definition from any of them of exactly how the door was positioned.
Two said half-open. One said wide/completely open.
"he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open" (GM)
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 11:22:46 PM
The Three Door Moves is so significant that Amaral, the Great Detective hot on the McCanns' trail, devotes a whole chapter in his book to it. Oh, wait, no he doesn't.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 13, 2014, 11:26:11 PM
The Three Door Moves is so significant that Amaral, the Great Detective hot on the McCanns' trail, devotes a whole chapter in his book to it. Oh, wait, no he doesn't.
You can't make it all fit & it sound plausible, because she wasn't abducted.
That's the truth Alfred, as much as you like to pretend otherwise.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: faithlilly on October 13, 2014, 11:33:42 PM
The three door moves weren't important before the abduction timeframe was moved by SY therefore wouldn't gave been in Amaral's book.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 13, 2014, 11:43:27 PM
I think someone was in all the time except for the time of Kate's arrival. This was someone with the main door key who did not want to share the key. The reasons for this cam be different: -The person waited inside for the signal to open the window and pass Madeleine through the window. - The person was afraid to exit. He-she killed Madeleine in an attempt to silence her. - The person wasn't normal and his-her actions cannot be defined in a logical way.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: faithlilly on October 14, 2014, 12:01:18 AM
I think someone was in all the time except for the time of Kate's arrival. This was someone with the main door key who did not want to share the key. The reasons for this cam be different: -The person waited inside for the signal to open the window and pass Madeleine through the window. - The person was afraid to exit. He-she killed Madeleine in an attempt to silence her. - The person wasn't normal and his-her actions cannot be defined in a logical way.
Or - the door didn't move at all.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 02:37:07 AM
It doesn't make any difference whether the door is half-open or fully-open. The view into the room is the same in both cases. The only extra view you get by moving the door from half-open to fully-open is a useless view of the end of the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 14, 2014, 02:43:02 AM
It doesn't make any difference whether the door is half-open or fully-open. The view into the room is the same in both cases. The only extra view you get by moving the door from half-open to fully-open is a useless view of the end of the wardrobe.
And someone could have been hiding behind that door.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 14, 2014, 07:22:31 AM
And someone could have been hiding behind that door.
Hid there before Gerry's check, somehow he knew he was coming.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 09:59:43 PM
Hmm so we have a room with a person in and the door is almost closed. Then later the person is not in the room, and, astoundingly, there is the added mystery that the door has been opened. Impossible to solve, I give up.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Jean-Pierre on October 14, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
Hmm so we have a room with a person in and the door is almost closed. Then later the person is not in the room, and, astoundingly, there is the added mystery that the door has been opened. Impossible to solve, I give up.
It is a puzzle. I am sure someone will be along in a minute to solve it.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 10:53:42 PM
It is a puzzle. I am sure someone will be along in a minute to solve it.
Mr Amaral's theory, that the person simply walked out of the room, is easily disproven by the fact that the door was only slightly ajar, and no person can fit through the small gap of a slightly ajar door.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Jean-Pierre on October 14, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
Mr Amaral's theory, that the person simply walked out of the room, is easily disproven by the fact that the door was only slightly ajar, and no person can fit through the small gap of a slightly ajar door.
His theory that the front door could not have been used also does not stand much scrutiny.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 14, 2014, 11:15:42 PM
Mr Amaral's theory, that the person simply walked out of the room, is easily disproven by the fact that the door was only slightly ajar, and no person can fit through the small gap of a slightly ajar door.
Eh? Doors can be moved you know, that's one of their unique features!
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2014, 11:17:35 PM
His theory that the front door could not have been used also does not stand much scrutiny.
I don't think that Dr Amaral produced any theory which was viable in Madeleine's case.
Not necessarily all his fault as the investigation into a missing child was beyond his areas of expertise and being made an arguido himself on the 4th of May must have been distracting to say the least.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2014, 11:23:14 PM
Mr Amaral's theory, that the person simply walked out of the room, is easily disproven by the fact that the door was only slightly ajar, and no person can fit through the small gap of a slightly ajar door.
With reference to Alfred's post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5409.msg192813#msg192813
I missed what you said, pegasus, because of course doors swing on hinges. Were you having a laugh?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 11:28:37 PM
I don't think that Dr Amaral produced any theory which was viable in Madeleine's case.
Not necessarily all his fault as the investigation into a missing child was beyond his areas of expertise and being made an arguido himself on the 4th of May must have been distracting to say the least.
He shows a child walking out of the bedroom. Whatever one thinks of the many other bits of his theory, that tiny bit is physically possible and quite likely. And it would explain the door being moved. Do you think an intruder moved the door?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 14, 2014, 11:52:44 PM
He shows a child walking out of the bedroom. Whatever one thinks of the many other bits of his theory, that tiny bit is physically possible and quite likely. And it would explain the door being moved. Do you think an intruder moved the door?
Are you saying that Madeleine got out of bed and moved the door twice?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 11:57:19 PM
First time when Gerry checked at nine-ish. He pulled it to.
Second time when Matt checked. He didn't alter the position of the door.
So when Kate checked it was as Matt had left it.
This could be explained by the abductor hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked and pulled the door to, and the abductor then opening it again when he left, and before Matt checked.
I agree that the door position observed by MO is likely to be identical to the door position observed by KM.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 15, 2014, 12:02:47 AM
He shows a child walking out of the bedroom. Whatever one thinks of the many other bits of his theory, that tiny bit is physically possible and quite likely. And it would explain the door being moved. Do you think an intruder moved the door?
I don’t have a firm opinion on the moving door.
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed; it is possible that an intruder opened it.
I have no doubt that an intruder opened the window for some reason, possibly to enter; but I think point of entry was the wooden front door. Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2014, 02:24:56 AM
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed; it is possible that an intruder opened it.
I have no doubt that an intruder opened the window for some reason, possibly to enter; but I think point of entry was the wooden front door. Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.
It is possible that the child got up between 9.10 and 9.30 and went into the other bedroom and slept there. That would explain the child bedroom door moving from almost shut at 9.10 to wider open at 9.30.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 15, 2014, 07:49:17 AM
It is possible that the child got up between 9.10 and 9.30 and went into the other bedroom and slept there. That would explain the child bedroom door moving from almost shut at 9.10 to wider open at 9.30.
Of course. Anything is possible because because there is no evidence or proof apart from the fact of Madeleine's disappearance. I do not subscribe to the 'theory' that Madeleine died accidentally and her body disposed of by her parents and friends. Why would they?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 08:31:05 AM
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed; it is possible that an intruder opened it.
I have no doubt that an intruder opened the window for some reason, possibly to enter; but I think point of entry was the wooden front door. Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed...
Sometime between 8.30 & 9.00 & she returned to the same sleeping position Gerry claimed she was in when he left her, on top of the covers, tucked up in bed, covers folded down.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
It is possible that the child got up between 9.10 and 9.30 and went into the other bedroom and slept there. That would explain the child bedroom door moving from almost shut at 9.10 to wider open at 9.30.
Cuddlecat & her pink princess blanket were left on her bed....
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 08:42:34 AM
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed; it is possible that an intruder opened it.
I have no doubt that an intruder opened the window for some reason, possibly to enter; but I think point of entry was the wooden front door. Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.
....Closing it & the shutters behind himself & then opening the child gate & closing it behind himself, or, he leapt off the balcony with her.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Benice on October 15, 2014, 09:08:25 AM
It is possible that Madeleine could have gone to the toilet then back into bed; it is possible that an intruder opened it.
I have no doubt that an intruder opened the window for some reason, possibly to enter; but I think point of entry was the wooden front door. Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.
Me neither. Especially as the change in air pressure when opening/closing the patio door could have caused the bedroom door to open more by itself.
I recently stayed with a friend and my bedroom door was positioned similarly to how the bedroom door in 5A was to the patio doors - except my door was at the top of the stairs. The front door was directly in front of the bottom of the stairs. The closing mechanism on my door was a bit dodgy and I had to really push it hard to get it to 'click' shut. One morning someone opened and closed the front door - and my bedroom door simultaneously opened about 6 inches. (I obviously hadn't closed it properly the night before).
There was no other reason for this to happen apart from the change in air pressure that was caused when the front door was opened/closed.
IMO that could have happened to Madeleine's bedroom door when Kate and Gerry opened the patio doors when they left to go to dinner - and possibly again when Gerry opened the patio doors at 9.05 - and could explain Gerry's 'observation' that the door was more open when he returned to check.
I have no fixed opinions on how the position of the door was found to be in after that - but it is possible that the change in air pressure every time anyone opened and closed the patio doors played a part in it.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 15, 2014, 09:51:43 AM
Me neither. Especially as the change in air pressure when opening/closing the patio door could have caused the bedroom door to open more by itself.
I recently stayed with a friend and my bedroom door was positioned similarly to how the bedroom door in 5A was to the patio doors - except my door was at the top of the stairs. The front door was directly in front of the bottom of the stairs. The closing mechanism on my door was a bit dodgy and I had to really push it hard to get it to 'click' shut. One morning someone opened and closed the front door - and my bedroom door simultaneously opened about 6 inches. (I obviously hadn't closed it properly the night before).
There was no other reason for this to happen apart from the change in air pressure that was caused when the front door was opened/closed.
IMO that could have happened to Madeleine's bedroom door when Kate and Gerry opened the patio doors when they left to go to dinner - and possibly again when Gerry opened the patio doors at 9.05 - and could explain Gerry's 'observation' that the door was more open when he returned to check.
I have no fixed opinions on how the position of the door was found to be in after that - but it is possible that the change in air pressure every time anyone opened and closed the patio doors played a part in it.
That is a more logical and simple explanation than the abductor hiding in the shadows … which I think was based on an anguished thought about what might have happened as Madeleine’s father tried to make sense of the horror.
One of the buildings I worked in had a door on the fourth floor which was always found to be open in the morning (unless locked) despite care being taken to ensure it was firmly closed at night, there was no rhyme or reason. Security told me that when doing their round one night they closed it and had only progressed a couple of yards before they heard it opening again … they didn’t stop to investigate … they just legged it. No individual was going around opening the door when the building was empty or the alarms would have been activated ... so it must have been due to a change in pressure caused by a door or window being opened elsewhere in the building.
I think it likely that if the abduction was planned it was accomplished in minutes … it wasn’t a long drawn out exercise … in and out … which makes the passing of the child through the window to an accomplice feasible although not certain … and I think the relevance of the phone pings at the appropriate times ties in with the planned abduction.
I don't attach much significance to the position of the door.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 11:48:56 AM
'I don't attach much significance to the position of the door'
Kate & Gerry do.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2014, 01:13:38 PM
'I don't attach much significance to the position of the door'
Kate & Gerry do.
So would I have done.
Off Topic slightly, but I always know if someone has been into the Holiday House that I manage, if I haven't been informed by the owner beforehand. Originally I knew this by instinct, and I was never wrong. But nowadays I leave doors and other things in a certain position just to be sure
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 01:21:02 PM
Off Topic slightly, but I always know if someone has been into the Holiday House that I manage, if I haven't been informed by the owner beforehand. Originally I knew this by instinct, and I was never wrong. But nowadays I leave doors and other things in a certain position just to be sure
Neither of them would have looked in, if not for that door having been moved.
The movement of that door is significant.
Wind was it?
Draft when they opened the patio doors?
It didn't happen any other night, just by chance, it only happened on the night Mr McCann claimed to be the last person to see his daughter (other than the Smiths), although he couldn't even remember if she was in bed or on top of the bleedin thing.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 04:18:13 PM
'I think it likely that if the abduction was planned it was accomplished in minutes'
'Until recently I thought that was also the point of exit … but now think it possible that it could have been the bedroom patio door.'
So, you think it likely the 'abductor' entered the apartment via the noisy front door, closing and locking it behind him.
He enters the childrens bedroom, opens the window & shutters & takes Maddie from her bed, goes into the parents bedroom, opens the patio door & shutters, exits , closes the patio door & shutters behind him.... where upon he either leaves through the childgate, closing it behind him, or jumps over the balcony with her.
...and Maddie slept through it all.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 15, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Neither of them would have looked in, if not for that door having been moved.
The movement of that door is significant.
Wind was it?
Draft when they opened the patio doors?
It didn't happen any other night, just by chance, it only happened on the night Mr McCann claimed to be the last person to see his daughter (other than the Smiths), although he couldn't even remember if she was in bed or on top of the bleedin thing.
How do you know what happened on any other night?
The night when Madeleine vanished is the night when such detail was of significance.
Just as the night Madeleine vanished was the night the window was opened and the shutter raised.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 04:44:06 PM
The night when Madeleine vanished is the night when such detail was of significance.
Just as the night Madeleine vanished was the night the window was opened and the shutter raised.
Because he found it strange that it had moved, it wouldn't be strange if it had moved on other nights, it would be... ...... 'the wind has moved the door, again'.....
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2014, 04:47:15 PM
Neither of them would have looked in, if not for that door having been moved.
The movement of that door is significant.
Wind was it?
Draft when they opened the patio doors?
It didn't happen any other night, just by chance, it only happened on the night Mr McCann claimed to be the last person to see his daughter (other than the Smiths), although he couldn't even remember if she was in bed or on top of the bleedin thing.
The Window Was Open. Think about it.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
I agree that the door position observed by MO is likely to be identical to the door position observed by KM.
She said completely open not half-open as Gerry and Matt said.
At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 15, 2014, 08:50:22 PM
At a slight tangent - was there any heating in the apartment?
Good question. I think there is a vent stack in north east corner child bedroom just to right of window, might be HVAC? It is shown as unused space in one of the PJ plans of the apartment. Corresponding to one of those little services access doors outside the front door. Probably one at south end of apartment too.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2014, 09:15:24 PM
At 1:18 in this video, which BTW was filmed in the real apartment, http://youtu.be/9e7ug0BfNy4?t=1m18s the door is shown already fairly open and not needing further opening, when the child wakes up and walks out of the bedroom into the lounge.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 09:21:01 PM
At 1:18 in this video, which BTW was filmed in the real apartment, http://youtu.be/9e7ug0BfNy4?t=1m18s the door is shown already fairly open and not needing further opening, when the child wakes up and walks out of the bedroom into the lounge.
......with the infamous 'Cuddle Rabbit' (or was it a Teddy?, it didn't look like a cat !), which Eddie didn't alert to.
You think Maddie would have left her precious 'Cuddle Rabbit' on her own bed, if she left the room to sleep in mum & dad's ?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 15, 2014, 09:36:40 PM
Good question. Looks like maybe an HVAC vent on wall inside child bedroom - near floor to right of window?
Behind the wicker chair, a large vent? Is that what backs on to those 3 vents outside, to the right of the front door? I was just wondering why Kate never mentioned a change in temperature in the room, with the wind blowing in. We know it was rather chilly outside - both she & Gerry had worn fleeces to go to dinner & crecheman & the man the Smiths allegedly saw were both warmly dressed. It suggests either the window hadn't been open for very long or the room was not heated.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
......with the infamous 'Cuddle Rabbit' (or was it a Teddy?, it didn't look like a cat !), which Eddie didn't alert to.
You think Maddie would have left her precious 'Cuddle Rabbit' on her own bed, if she left the room to sleep in mum & dad's ?
The toy being left on the bed is an important clue which means the child got out of bed and walked into the lounge not slowly and relaxedly, but fast and hurried.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: jassi on October 15, 2014, 09:41:11 PM
I think you missed the important little words 'could have' out of that statement
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2014, 09:47:49 PM
Behind the wicker chair, a large vent? Is that what backs on to those 3 vents outside, to the right of the front door? I was just wondering why Kate never mentioned a change in temperature in the room, with the wind blowing in. We know it was rather chilly outside - both she & Gerry had worn fleeces to go to dinner & crecheman & the man the Smiths allegedly saw were both warmly dressed. It suggests either the window hadn't been open for very long or the room was not heated.
I am not sure if there is a vent in the child bedroom I just remember seeing one in a photo low down right of window but can't find it now. Check out Vol 9 p2332 for a plan, that shows it as a stack I think, not part of room or wardrobe. Also possibly another stack see photos of lounge south west corner? Or is that just a structural column? Makes sense to have one at each end of apartment. If there are air or HVAC vents, they would be the exit for the air which blew in the open window.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 15, 2014, 09:56:42 PM
'I don't attach much significance to the position of the door'
Kate & Gerry do.
Oh but indeed they Do!
1. They were constantly checking the children ( this was before they admitted it was not a physical check but a door listening check)
2. This was the opening of the abduction story. whooshing and noticing curtains and shutters being open (which she claimed were closed before they went out). This is the very MOMENT Kate knew, JUST KNEW Maddie had been taken!
We have to think about why Kate noticed the difference in the door- she knew that others had checked after they went out. SO that was a no brainer anyway.
She was VERY OBSERVANT IN NOTICING THE DOOR NOT BEING CLOSED-but upon her check she didn't notice Maddie missing OR the draught from the window and shutters being 'open' also. It was only when she tried to CLOSE the door the whooshing happened.
And what about that... Gerry getting a 'feeling' someone was in the apartment...but didn't bother to check... went back out and left his children alone.. a quick check would not have taken more than a few minutes what was his hurry?
If an abduction theory is to be believed then the abductor got access via the unlocked door which they always used- but they couldn't say that- think of their reputation! Maybe this is what happened-or Maddie did wander outside via the unlocked door.
I just do not buy into thee whooshing and jemmied shutter story- that was made up- because there is o logical explanation in my opinion.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 15, 2014, 10:02:00 PM
The only way the child would leave the toy on the bed is if awoken for example by a loud noise and scary sight at the other end of the room and rushing out of the bedroom into the lounge very fast.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 10:08:05 PM
1. They were constantly checking the children ( this was before they admitted it was not a physical check but a door listening check)
2. This was the opening of the abduction story. whooshing and noticing curtains and shutters being open (which she claimed were closed before they went out). This is the very MOMENT Kate knew, JUST KNEW Maddie had been taken!
We have to think about why Kate noticed the difference in the door- she knew that others had checked after they went out. SO that was a no brainer anyway.
She was VERY OBSERVANT IN NOTICING THE DOOR NOT BEING CLOSED-but upon her check she didn't notice Maddie missing OR the draught from the window and shutters being 'open' also. It was only when she tried to CLOSE the door the whooshing happened.
And what about that... Gerry getting a 'feeling' someone was in the apartment...but didn't bother to check... went back out and left his children alone.. a quick check would not have taken more than a few minutes what was his hurry?
If an abduction theory is to be believed then the abductor got access via the unlocked door which they always used- but they couldn't say that- think of their reputation! Maybe this is what happened-or Maddie did wander outside via the unlocked door.
I just do not buy into thee whooshing and jemmied shutter story- that was made up- because there is o logical explanation in my opinion.
If an abduction theory is to be believed then the abductor got access via the unlocked door...
But thanks to Kate, it's debunked, because the sliding patio door as a point of entry/exit means the abductor had to open the gate, child gate, door & curtains, closing them all behind him as he entered/exited.
'I'd just like to reiterate that this isn't a four-year-old girl, errm... walking off somewhere during the day or in the evening, you know, she was tucked up in bed, errm... and there's no way she... she could have got out on her own.'
The only way the child would leave the toy on the bed is if awoken for example by a loud noise and scary sight at the other end of the room and rushing out of the bedroom into the lounge very fast.
Would she not rush out of the room screaming then? would she not bang into things? fall over..oh no sorry, That couldn't happen. no accident theories here.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 15, 2014, 10:49:12 PM
[quote deleted]
The issue that is always dodged is the basic one of "for there to have been an abduction the abductor and the child must cross paths". Now tell us how that happened. No ifs buts and could be s; how precisely did their paths cross?.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 15, 2014, 11:12:40 PM
All was silent when she entered the apartment. A door wide/completely open, a window open and curtains open in her first statement but all was silent. Not a word about running to the window and looking for a sign of anybody and shouting for Madeleine - only that she went searching through the apartment. Nothing adds up.
Gerry and Kate both said the door had moved - their reason for doing a visual check. They've entered the apartment but wouldn't do a quick visual check on their very young children unless the door had moved. Then not checking before closing the door. Get real!
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2014, 11:14:51 PM
The issue that is always dodged is the basic one of "for there to have been an abduction the abductor and the child must cross paths". Now tell us how that happened. No ifs buts and could be s; how precisely did their paths cross?.
I've thought about it quite a lot & the best explanations of how he got in, dunnit, & got out again, accounting for the status of the doors/windows of the apartment & Maddie not waking up etc... are of almost endless comedy value & nothing more.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 16, 2014, 01:47:54 AM
Would she not rush out of the room screaming then? would she not bang into things? fall over..oh no sorry, That couldn't happen. no accident theories here.
Screaming unlikely but would make some noise.Hearing someone in the room is one of the two reasons the burglar abandoned the burglary just before he climbed inside. The other is visual - seeing movement in the room. If you were a burglar and thought everyone was out, got a window and shutter open, but then as you were about to climb in you heard and saw a child running out of the very room you were about to climb into, what would you do?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 16, 2014, 02:02:14 AM
The door move before 9.30 is the child pulling the door open to go into another room. That's what the evidence indicates.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 16, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
No the evidence indicates the child was never in bed.
Yes Indeed Pathy!
Also, there is the issue of how 'they' left her. 1. Kate mentioned snuggled up in bed- Gerry mentions left laying on top of bed- the bed does not look slept in at all...IMO
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 16, 2014, 03:14:29 PM
I've thought about it quite a lot & the best explanations of how he got in, dunnit, & got out again, accounting for the status of the doors/windows of the apartment & Maddie not waking up etc... are of almost endless comedy value & nothing more.
Me too. Given:- a) the abductor was mortal and therefore unable to pull "the Zeus trick" b) he wasn't "Rubber Bones" Webb and therefore could not utilise the HVAC duct peggy is on about. c) as reported somewhere Madeleine could not get out. That leaves windows and two doors for a possible entrance route for the "shady". Any takers for a precise explanation on how this was effected ? How about in through the front door using a key then out through the window cos he is a "shady" and has to do "shady" things. Nah I can see holes in that idea.... &%+((£
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 16, 2014, 03:27:55 PM
Me too. Given:- a) the abductor was mortal and therefore unable to pull "the Zeus trick" b) he wasn't "Rubber Bones" Webb and therefore could not utilise the HVAC duct peggy is on about. c) as reported somewhere Madeleine could not get out. That leaves windows and two doors for a possible entrance route for the "shady". Any takers for a precise explanation on how this was effected ? How about in through the front door using a key then out through the window cos he is a "shady" and has to do "shady" things. Nah I can see holes in that idea.... &%+((£
two doors for a possible entrance route.
Mercifull heavens, No, good sir.
Perhaps you have missed it, but I have mentioned this many a time....
The back patio door as a point of entry exit requires the abductor to have closed the gate, childgate (with childlock) sliding door & curtains behind himself upon entry/exit.
Perhaps you have missed it, but I have mentioned this many a time....
The back patio door as a point of entry exit requires the abductor to have closed the gate, childgate (with childlock) sliding door & curtains behind himself upon entry/exit.
Kate describes the state of gate, childgate, patio door & curtains as she found them upon entering.....
No disturbance.....an abductor who closed all that stuff behind him, tell us another one jackanory,
Ah! I see; a very tidy person. An apprentice burglar perhaps of the sort who rifles through a chest of drawers from the top down (some may need to think about that!). So we have established that the crossing of paths was inside the apartment because the child could not get out.
Then the abductor comes in through the front door using a skellington key and legs it through the window levitating over the bed without leaving a trace? Why go out through the window if you have a door key? So by a process of elimination he uses the window in both directions without leaving a trace. So my theory that he was mortal was wrong as it is a variation on "the Zeus trick"..... &%+((£
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 16, 2014, 07:28:37 PM
Ah! I see; a very tidy person. An apprentice burglar perhaps of the sort who rifles through a chest of drawers from the top down (some may need to think about that!). So we have established that the crossing of paths was inside the apartment because the child could not get out.
Then the abductor comes in through the front door using a skellington key and legs it through the window levitating over the bed without leaving a trace? Why go out through the window if you have a door key? So by a process of elimination he uses the window in both directions without leaving a trace. So my theory that he was mortal was wrong as it is a variation on "the Zeus trick"..... &%+((£
The front door was noisy, according to Dr McCann...
'Madeleine Was Here'
GM: 'Part of the reason we ended coming through the back, was the noise coming through the front door...you don't want to disturb them..... stupid now but...'
The front door was noisy, according to Dr McCann...
'Madeleine Was Here'
GM: 'Part of the reason we ended coming through the back, was the noise coming through the front door...you don't want to disturb them..... stupid now but...'
But the burgular (I know) or whatever would not know the door was noisy unless he had posed as a "chugger" or "workman" at the door sort of casing the place like his Manual of Tactics tells him to. So given it is unlikely that the front door was used and that "the Zeus trick" wasn't pulled either then we have an intruder who was bullied by his mum when a kid so he always drew curtains and locked up after himself etc or he had a severe case of OCD. That ought to narrow the field down a bit.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 16, 2014, 08:20:13 PM
But the burgular (I know) or whatever would not know the door was noisy unless he had posed as a "chugger" or "workman" at the door sort of casing the place like his Manual of Tactics tells him to. So given it is unlikely that the front door was used and that "the Zeus trick" wasn't pulled either then we have an intruder who was bullied by his mum when a kid so he always drew curtains and locked up after himself etc or he had a severe case of OCD. That ought to narrow the field down a bit.
Pre planned abduction, equipped with a key, forget that window rubbish....
He'd be in that front door, grab her, cover her mouth, straight back out the front door without closing it.
But then what?
Run along the path or jump over the wall with her?
Pass her over to that extra abductor guy I've just imagined who's lurking in the car park with the imaginary getaway vehicle.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 16, 2014, 10:35:55 PM
Pre planned abduction, equipped with a key, forget that window rubbish....
He'd be in that front door, grab her, cover her mouth, straight back out the front door without closing it.
But then what?
Run along the path or jump over the wall with her?
Pass her over to that extra abductor guy I've just imagined who's lurking in the car park with the imaginary getaway vehicle.
Jumping over the wall toting 16kg or 17kg might be a bit of a tall order. Sit on it and swing your legs over more like. Did the cops find evidence of such do you know. Keeping the victim quiet at the same time. That seems to be a stumbling block unless of course he anaesthetised the victim before leaving the apartment. Closing everything behind him as he went with a third hand. We seem to be running out of options here a bit I think. We perhaps need to do a precis of what is known, what is possible and what is improbable.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 17, 2014, 12:16:47 AM
In your opinion who put the toy on the bed? And when?
The toy didn't take her out of the apartment. The children probably had it when they were playing in the living room. Maybe they were fighting over it. The toy was placed on the bed before 8:30.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 17, 2014, 02:39:07 AM
The toy didn't take her out of the apartment. The children probably had it when they were playing in the living room. Maybe they were fighting over it. The toy was placed on the bed before 8:30.
Thanks. So you have toy put on bed before 8.30pm. And how exactly does your theory make that fit with the 1h25m minimum interval indicated in the CSST study?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 19, 2014, 03:23:04 PM
Jumping over the wall toting 16kg or 17kg might be a bit of a tall order. Sit on it and swing your legs over more like. Did the cops find evidence of such do you know. Keeping the victim quiet at the same time. That seems to be a stumbling block unless of course he anaesthetised the victim before leaving the apartment. Closing everything behind him as he went with a third hand. We seem to be running out of options here a bit I think. We perhaps need to do a precis of what is known, what is possible and what is improbable.
The kidnapper of Madeleine McCann drugged her and her twin brother and sister so they would all be quiet while she was snatched.
A duplicate key may also have been used to gain entrance to the holiday apartment where the children were sleeping, say investigators.
It means the monster is still a threat to children living or holidaying on Portugal’s Algarve and must be caught urgently as he is highly likely to reoffend.
Former police detectives David Edgar and Arthur Cowley have spent months re-analysing every shred of evidence.
They are convinced the abductor went to the family’s apartment on May 3 2007 fully prepared with sufficient drugs, probably chloroform, to knock out all three children.
The fact that Sean and Amelie, then just 18 months old, failed to wake when the alarm was raised, nor even as they were taken to another apartment in the cold night air, has persuaded the detectives that they, too, must have been drugged.
Had the twins been tested for drugs immediately, any medication used could have been established, making it easier to identify the kidnapper, but vital time was lost.
Chloroform can be made easily and other sedatives, such as the horse tranquilliser ketamine, are commonly in circulation in the criminal underworld.
Even now, however, experts say there may be forensic clues on clothing or bedding which could yield a breakthrough.
The Sunday Express can further reveal that the McCanns’ private detectives are working on a solid theory about exactly how Madeleine was abducted.
Just as television investigator Donal MacIntyre suggested in this paper three weeks ago, they believe there was a dry run prior to the kidnap that fateful night at apartment 5a of the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz.
While checking the layout of the apartment the night before, the kidnapper probably woke Sean, who in turn woke Madeleine. In the morning she had told Kate and Gerry she was frightened.
The fact that the children woke up is thought to have persuaded the kidnapper to use knock-out drugs when he returned the next night to take Madeleine, three.
On the question of the duplicate key, holidaymakers often left front door keys under the doormats during the day.
A theory emerging is that the kidnapper had a duplicate key to apartment 5a, which could have been used on the night to enter by the front door.
Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.
It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.
The theory suggests the kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.
With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.
Another possibility is that the front door was not double-locked when Kate and Gerry left through the unlocked patio doors to join their seven friends at the resort’s tapas bar some 30 metres from their apartment.
Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins on the night Madeleine was taken
'On the night I just remember the twins lying in the cot and not moving - with lights going on and people moving around.
'There was a lot of noise and they just didn't move and I remember several times checking for chest movements. I did feel it was a bit strange that they were not moving let alone waking up.
'I did consider with Madeleine perhaps she had been given something too.'
The mother added the morning before Maddie vanished she had been crying and complained that she had not slept.
Mrs McCann said: 'I just think it is too much of a coincidence but I never thought for one moment that there was anything sinister.'
She added: 'When we discovered she had gone it seemed very likely that someone had tried the same thing the night before.'
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 19, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
Eileen McCann (Oct 2007, Express)
“I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her waking. If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know, she would have screamed the place down.”
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 19, 2014, 03:46:08 PM
'Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.'
'It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.'
'The theory suggests the kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.'
'With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.' http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged
I can't help but wonder how these experienced dectectives managed to work the open window & shutters into their theory.
Or did they perhaps just ignore it like Mark Williams Thomas does, or the way Prof Barclay had to.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 19, 2014, 04:37:15 PM
'Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.'
'It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.'
'The theory suggests the kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.'
'With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.' http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged
I can't help but wonder how these experienced dectectives managed to work the open window & shutters into their theory.
Or did they perhaps just ignore it like Mark Williams Thomas does, or the way Prof Barclay had to.
Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform? It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station? My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine. * she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 19, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform? It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station? My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine. * she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.
Donal MacIntyre had a similar 'cat brains through backside' theory, he went for the abductor who entered through the (debunked) patio door, hid during Gerry's check, drugged Maddie with chloroform then passed her out the window to an accomplice abductor, before he himself climbed out.
Oh, & they had carried out a dress rehersal, some time before.
Donal MacIntyre had a similar 'cat brains through backside' theory, he went for the abductor who entered through the (debunked) patio door, hid during Gerry's check, drugged Maddie with chloroform then passed her out the window to an accomplice abductor, before he himself climbed out.
Oh, & they had carried out a dress rehersal, some time before.
What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ? I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 19, 2014, 06:16:13 PM
What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ? I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.
'Gerry spends up to 10 minutes in the five-room apartment and will only later reflect that he felt there was someone else there at the same time.' ...
'My view is that the abductor was probably in the children’s bedroom, possibly behind the door or crouching behind furniture.'
The abductor hid there, without making a peep for up to 10 mins.
Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 19, 2014, 06:23:49 PM
Twice don't forget because the guy in the Express reckons there was dress rehearsal.
'As Gerry strolls out of the patio doors, closing but not locking them, he leaves through the same small gate facing the road where the abductor has entered minutes before'
'Back inside the apartment the abductor must be breathing a sigh of relief as Gerry leaves, then realises his exit route is blocked and plan B has to be put into operation'
'For this, help is essential. The abductor inside the apartment passes Madeleine – probably put to sleep with chloroform – through the open window into the accomplice’s arms.'
Well, there was at least a plan A & B, apparently, maybe they practiced them both.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 19, 2014, 06:38:28 PM
'As Gerry strolls out of the patio doors, closing but not locking them, he leaves through the same small gate facing the road where the abductor has entered minutes before'
'Back inside the apartment the abductor must be breathing a sigh of relief as Gerry leaves, then realises his exit route is blocked and plan B has to be put into operation'
'For this, help is essential. The abductor inside the apartment passes Madeleine – probably put to sleep with chloroform – through the open window into the accomplice’s arms.'
Well, there was at least a plan A & B, apparently, maybe they practiced them both.
I think you've got it.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 19, 2014, 06:47:40 PM
'scuse me ! let me leave first I do so hate playing gooseberry. have a lovely time
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: faithlilly on October 19, 2014, 06:51:51 PM
Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform? It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station? My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine. * she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Eleanor on October 19, 2014, 06:56:56 PM
What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ? I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.
I don't believe in the dress rehearsal because they must have known Kate was measuring the door gaps- and thank goodness she did- or she would never have noticed Maddie gone at 10pmish.
Lets look at two very interesting sentences.
Gerry 'I felt there was someone in the apartment' (he was there for 10mins) why didn't he check?
Kate ' I checked the twins were breathing- I thought it strange they did not wake up' (she is a trained anesthetist). why did she not panic at them not waking up?
Why do these sentences still leave me wondering after all this time?
9
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 20, 2014, 12:38:34 PM
I don't believe in the dress rehearsal because they must have known Kate was measuring the door gaps- and thank goodness she did- or she would never have noticed Maddie gone at 10pmish.
Lets look at two very interesting sentences.
Gerry 'I felt there was someone in the apartment' (he was there for 10mins) why didn't he check?
Kate ' I checked the twins were breathing- I thought it strange they did not wake up' (she is a trained anesthetist). why did she not panic at them not waking up?
Why do these sentences still leave me wondering after all this time?
9
Because somethings about this case leave you with the uneasy feeling that they don't hang together any too well and other things hang together a bit too slick?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 20, 2014, 04:01:42 PM
Yes indeed. also, the mention of tea stains on PJ's and little Maddie trying to tell her parents she was scared as she woke up and they were not there? Seriously, if that wasn't a shot across the bow I don't known what was.
Too many things do not add up. There is no answer to these questions, or Spammys about how the 'abduction' took place.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: John on October 25, 2014, 11:53:05 PM
Behind the wicker chair, a large vent? Is that what backs on to those 3 vents outside, to the right of the front door? I was just wondering why Kate never mentioned a change in temperature in the room, with the wind blowing in. We know it was rather chilly outside - both she & Gerry had worn fleeces to go to dinner & crecheman & the man the Smiths allegedly saw were both warmly dressed. It suggests either the window hadn't been open for very long or the room was not heated.
A good point misty, the bedroom would have been rather chilly if the shutter was up and the window fully open. Strange that Matt never mentioned a temperature differential in the department yet made reference to a slightly increased light level. &%+((£
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 12:26:32 AM
A good point misty, the bedroom would have been rather chilly if the shutter was up and the window fully open. Strange that Matt never mentioned a temperature differential in the department yet made reference to a slightly increased light level. &%+((£
Looking at the proximity of the 2 bedroom doors & the bathroom door in relation to the patio door, it struck me that an intruder, upon hearing the patio door sliding, would have been able to leave the children's room, unsighted, & nip into the parents room (possibly hiding behind the floor-length curtains). Supposing the intruder entered before Gerry's 9pm visit, not anticipating that a check would be made quite that early - Gerry used the bathroom & checked the children - that would account for the first "moving door". Gerry then left, the intruder went back into the bedroom, sedated the children, opened the window etc, then left via the partially-locked front door with Madeleine - that would account for the second door move. Matt has already admitted he didn't see Madeleine in her bed but the shutters would have been up by then, accounting for the increased light. Had the twins not been sedated, I believe they would have been awoken by the chill & draught from the open window. This would mean that the abduction did indeed occur between 9 & 9.30 and bring the Tannerman sighting back into the equation..
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 12:46:11 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2322.jpg Notice the void area in the corner of the child bedroom. No chimney on roof at this position.Possibly contains elec boxes for apartments A G K ?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2310.jpg Top right photo. High above the cooker is that a vent hood? Wind may enter the child bedroom window and go out this vent hood making the through draught to blow curtains and slam bedroom door.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2014, 12:53:08 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2322.jpg Notice the void area in the corner of the child bedroom.
Again, well spotted Pegasus. 8@??)(
What do you think that is all about?
Could anyone hide in there? Somehow I think not, but am happy to be found wrong.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: John on October 26, 2014, 12:55:55 AM
Opening any external door on a breezy night would create an increased pressure within the apartment which would have had a tendency to push open any internal doors. This for me explains the first two door moves. The third move was a combination of the front door being opened followed by someone centering the children's bedroom.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 01:18:52 AM
http://www.allmystery.de/i/t79bd1b_the-ocean-club-appartments-in-praia-da-l.jpg Eureka. Found the through draught. See that 3-storey-high vent chimney on the left of the building. You can see it continue down the wall. That must connect to the cooker vent hoods in the kitchens of 5A and 5G and 5K. So air flows in the open child bedroom window and out the vent hood in the kitchen and up that vent chimney. The gravity effect will make the through draught even stronger. So there folks you have your slamming door and blowing curtains, exactly as truthfully described by the witness.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 01:20:08 AM
Opening any external door on a breezy night would create an increased pressure within the apartment which would have had a tendency to push open any internal doors. This for me explains the first two door moves. The third move was a combination of the front door being opened followed by someone centering the children's bedroom.
I should have added that I don't believe there was a 3rd door move. Matt found the door open at an angle of about 50% and he didn't say in his initial or subsequent statement that he altered the position of the door. Matt Oldfield statement 4th May 2007 *snip* At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. ===========================================
Matt Oldfield statement 10th May 2007 (revised) *snip* That he did not enter the bedroom where MBM and the twins were sleeping. He recalls that the bedroom door was half open, making an angle of 50 degrees. He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door. =========================================== Quote from "Madeleine" page 71
At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry & Matt had done and stood there, listening, for a few seconds. All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over & gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught..
Two moves, not three.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 01:30:55 AM
Yes agreed the 21.30 and 22.00 checkers see identical bedroom door angle. And because of the way the wardrobe sticks into the room, 50 degrees gives as good a view into the room as 90 degrees. .
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 01:49:16 AM
Yes agreed the 21.30 and 22.00 checkers see identical bedroom door angle. And because of the way the wardrobe sticks into the room, 50 degrees gives as good a view into the room as 90 degrees. .
IMO the logical conclusion is that the abductor, having seen ROB checking at around 9, did not anticipate Gerry also checking within the net 5-10 minutes. Someone had already entered the children's room, but not opened the shutters or window, before Gerry arrived. Therefore, the point of entry was not the window. It is also worth pointing out that the blind was up on the window above the dining table and also open-slatted in the kitchen, providing a partial view of the interior from the balcony on the opposite side of the road where the pile of cigarette butts was found.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2014, 01:59:16 AM
http://www.allmystery.de/i/t79bd1b_the-ocean-club-appartments-in-praia-da-l.jpg Eureka. Found the through draught. See that 3-storey-high vent chimney on the left of the building. You can see it continue down the wall. That must connect to the cooker vent hoods in the kitchens of 5A and 5G and 5K. So air flows in the open child bedroom window and out the vent hood in the kitchen and up that vent chimney. The gravity effect will make the through draught even stronger. So there folks you have your slamming door and blowing curtains, exactly as truthfully described by the witness.
Most definitive explanation I’ve seen.
Cancels out our discussion on the bedroom door at the small veranda.
Dr McCann pulling the door towards her would be enough to alter the pressure causing the door to slam and the through draught would ‘whoosh’ the curtain when she opened it.
Well done, pegasus, I think that's that one solved. What are you going to work on next?
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 01:16:15 AM
IMO the logical conclusion is that the abductor, having seen ROB checking at around 9, did not anticipate Gerry also checking within the net 5-10 minutes. Someone had already entered the children's room, but not opened the shutters or window, before Gerry arrived. Therefore, the point of entry was not the window. It is also worth pointing out that the blind was up on the window above the dining table and also open-slatted in the kitchen, providing a partial view of the interior from the balcony on the opposite side of the road where the pile of cigarette butts was found.
I find the theory, that an intruder entered the apartment and moved the bedroom door and hid in a wardrobe during the 21.10 check, far too complicated. That first move of the door is much more simply explained by a child getting up to go to the bathroom then returning to bed before 21.10.
And the second move of the door can be simply explained by a child opening the door between 21.10 and 21.30 to go from the child bedroom into for example the lounge or the other bedroom.
Maybe I have been over-reading the "Complete Works of Ockham" but I do not see any need at all to introduce an intruder to explain the two door moves.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 01:33:04 AM
I find the theory, that an intruder entered the apartment and moved the bedroom door and hid in a wardrobe during the 21.10 check, far too complicated. That first move of the door is much more simply explained by a child getting up to go to the bathroom then returning to bed before 21.10.
And the second move of the door can be simply explained by a child opening the door between 21.10 and 21.30 to go from the child bedroom into for example the lounge or the other bedroom.
Maybe I have been over-reading the "Complete Works of Ockham" but I do not see any need at all to introduce an intruder to explain the two door moves.
First, well done on the flue/air pressure explanation. Regarding the intruder - he didn't have to hide in a wardrobe. Simply by concealing him/herself behind those floor-length curtains in the parents' room would have been enough, chancing that Gerry would not be going in there. IMO that is more feasible than your suggestion of Madeleine leaving her room and hiding after being awoken by the sound of the shutters, with the intruder fleeing. Why didn't Kate find her, hiding & crying, afraid to move, when she returned to do her check? There is absolutely no evidence Madeleine left that apartment of her own free will that night - and if she had gone outside I think she would have just stood there, wailing for her mum & dad.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 01:52:33 AM
First, well done on the flue/air pressure explanation. Regarding the intruder - he didn't have to hide in a wardrobe. Simply by concealing him/herself behind those floor-length curtains in the parents' room would have been enough, chancing that Gerry would not be going in there. IMO that is more feasible than your suggestion of Madeleine leaving her room and hiding after being awoken by the sound of the shutters, with the intruder fleeing. Why didn't Kate find her, hiding & crying, afraid to move, when she returned to do her check? There is absolutely no evidence Madeleine left that apartment of her own free will that night - and if she had gone outside I think she would have just stood there, wailing for her mum & dad.
I am pleased with finding that kitchen hood connecting to a tall vent chimney, because it provides the through draught which proves that the witness is telling the truth about the bedroom door slamming after she set it to the almost closed position, and also is telling the truth about the curtains blowing in.
Looking at past cases, there are far more cases involving a child hiding in response to an attempted burglary, than there are cases of an intruder hiding behind curtains while an adult resident is in the apartment.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 02:02:48 AM
I am pleased with finding that kitchen hood connecting to a tall vent chimney, because it provides the through draught which proves that the witness is telling the truth about the bedroom door slamming after she set it to the almost closed position, and also is telling the truth about the curtains blowing in.
Looking at past cases, there are far more cases involving a child hiding in response to an attempted burglary, than there are cases of an intruder hiding behind curtains while an adult resident is in the apartment.
Several past cases where a burglar has been confronted by a resident have resulted in physical attacks. The PdL intruders appear to have been on the meek side, and there was no easy way out undetected for an individual who had just arrived in the children's bedroom then heard someone entering via the patio door. You need to explain how Madeleine disappeared without trace in your scenario.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 02:42:04 AM
Several past cases where a burglar has been confronted by a resident have resulted in physical attacks. The PdL intruders appear to have been on the meek side, and there was no easy way out undetected for an individual who had just arrived in the children's bedroom then heard someone entering via the patio door. You need to explain how Madeleine disappeared without trace in your scenario.
I searched for burglars hiding behind curtains - I found none (except one behind a shower curtain) - if you think it is likely then where are your past cases?
So far explained the open window, the open shutter, why no intruder entered, toy on bed, how the door became wider open, reason for leaving room, the door slamming, the curtains blowing.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 26, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
I should have added that I don't believe there was a 3rd door move. Matt found the door open at an angle of about 50% and he didn't say in his initial or subsequent statement that he altered the position of the door. Matt Oldfield statement 4th May 2007 *snip* At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. ===========================================
Matt Oldfield statement 10th May 2007 (revised) *snip* That he did not enter the bedroom where MBM and the twins were sleeping. He recalls that the bedroom door was half open, making an angle of 50 degrees. He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door. =========================================== Quote from "Madeleine" page 71
At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry & Matt had done and stood there, listening, for a few seconds. All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over & gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught..
Two moves, not three.
Now you know why that book was written.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 26, 2014, 09:04:54 AM
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything'' Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything. I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that.
certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet.
4078 'The curtains were drawn and weren't blowing around'' Reply 'Yeah'.(MO)
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 12:24:42 PM
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything'' Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything. I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that.
certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet.
4078 'The curtains were drawn and weren't blowing around'' Reply 'Yeah'.(MO)
MO did not enter the bedroom therefore he would not have smelt any funny smells in there. The curtains probably were still during those few seconds he glanced in.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: misty on October 26, 2014, 01:00:45 PM
I searched for burglars hiding behind curtains - I found none (except one behind a shower curtain) - if you think it is likely then where are your past cases?
So far explained the open window, the open shutter, why no intruder entered, toy on bed, how the door became wider open, reason for leaving room, the door slamming, the curtains blowing.
I've seen the curtain concealment method in the movies :) The intruder may not have even concealed themselves anywhere in the parents' room - Gerry didn't go in there. It's just a plausible option IMO - because my version allows for Madeleine to be taken.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2014, 01:27:20 PM
I've seen the curtain concealment method in the movies :) The intruder may not have even concealed themselves anywhere in the parents' room - Gerry didn't go in there. It's just a plausible option IMO - because my version allows for Madeleine to be taken.
...yes, they usually leave their shoes sticking out. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2014, 01:33:27 PM
I find the theory, that an intruder entered the apartment and moved the bedroom door and hid in a wardrobe during the 21.10 check, far too complicated. That first move of the door is much more simply explained by a child getting up to go to the bathroom then returning to bed before 21.10.
And the second move of the door can be simply explained by a child opening the door between 21.10 and 21.30 to go from the child bedroom into for example the lounge or the other bedroom.
Maybe I have been over-reading the "Complete Works of Ockham" but I do not see any need at all to introduce an intruder to explain the two door moves.
The only problem with that is that Madeleine subsequently vanished without trace; had she exited the apartment of her own volition, she would not have got very far because she had no shoes on her feet.
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: ferryman on October 26, 2014, 07:04:35 PM
The only problem with that is that Madeleine subsequently vanished without trace; had she exited the apartment of her own volition, she would not have got very far because she had no shoes on her feet.
Yes. Madeleine's only pair of outdoor shoes were found in the villa ...
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2014, 07:57:28 PM
We remain struggling with the prime bit for abduction. The abductor and the child cross paths. Kate said Madeleine could not get out. Taking that at face value the abductor and child crossed paths inside the apartment. Now find a convincing tale of how the abductor gained entrance and exit. All we get is "if this and if that and if the other and well she disappeared ergo it was an abduction". Moving doors whooshing curtains and all that haraz is just that. Come up with a convincing tale of how the abductor got in bearing in mind "Tweedle dum" and "Tweedle dee" said there was no evidence of break in."
Title: Re: Three Door Moves
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2014, 09:45:03 PM
The only problem with that is that Madeleine subsequently vanished without trace;
True. The sequence of events I described completely explains the entire scene in the child bedroom (open window, open shutter, no sign of any intruder actually entering, toy left on bed, bedroom door open, curtains blowing, door slamming). Also very significantly it completely explains why the child was not found in that bedroom. It does so without recourse to anything which is not likely, it requires no staging of that bedroom, it matches exactly the description by KM of the scene in that bedroom. Therefore that must be part one of what happened. Part two must follow on from that, with the important note that the north bedroom has now been exited and therefore part two is in a different room/location.
had she exited the apartment of her own volition, she would not have got very far because she had no shoes on her feet.
Yes one of the nannies was a good detective because that was the first question she asked, where are the shoes, and yes the shoes were still there. Bare feet would in a relaxed scenario rule out going outside beyond balcony, but in this not relaxed scenario bare feet does not rule it out at all. Other things however indicate against going to street.