UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2016, 02:26:09 PM
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I certainly don't think Maddie is alive and I think very few do
There is a very remote chance she may be alive
14
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Grief can be felt when a child is lost to an unknown fate.
I believe that Madeleine could well be alive. We have nothing to suggest otherwise.
Oh yes we do.
Not one trace of her in eight and a half years, since May the 3 rd 2007.
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Oh yes we do.
Not one trace of her in eight and a half years, since May the 3 rd 2007.
do people really believe that maddie would be alive and undamaged after almost 9 years? would anyone want a child to live like that for so long?
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Oh yes we do.
Not one trace of her in eight and a half years, since May the 3 rd 2007.
So that means she is almost certainly dead
But as there is no conclusive proof
Who knows
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do people really believe that maddie would be alive and undamaged after almost 9 years? would anyone want a child to live like that for so long?
The chances of Madeleine being alive are very very slim. But it is still possible. Take the case of Natascha Kampusch for example.
Are you saying the McCanns should just give up and write her off? I do have sympathy with you, Carly. Having to read these forums and read these posts from "pros" must be really annoying for you.
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The chances of Madeleine being alive are very very slim. But it is still possible. Take the case of Natascha Kampusch for example.
Are you saying the McCanns should just give up and write her off? I do have sympathy with you, Carly. Having to read these forums and read these posts from "[ censored word ]" must be really annoying for you.
Can you remind us of the details of that case ?
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Can you remind us of the details of that case ?
Of course.
Austrian 10-year-old, Natascha Kampusch was abducted on her way to school in 1998, and not seen or heard from for 8 years. She spent those 8 years as a prisoner of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, where she acted as his maid, cook, companion, and victim of every kind of abuse. He kept her in a 5 by 5 foot, windowless cell for days at a time, and it wasn’t until she was older that he allowed her to spend time in the garden, and occasionally go on trips with him. One day, after her 18th birthday, while Priklopil was distracted by a phone call, Natascha made a run for it. Rather than be arrested, Priklopil committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. Now, Natascha owns the house in which she was held prisoner, saying she doesn’t ever want it to be turned into a museum of her lost adolescence.
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Of course.
Austrian 10-year-old, Natascha Kampusch was abducted on her way to school in 1998, and not seen or heard from for 8 years. She spent those 8 years as a prisoner of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, where she acted as his maid, cook, companion, and victim of every kind of abuse. He kept her in a 5 by 5 foot, windowless cell for days at a time, and it wasn’t until she was older that he allowed her to spend time in the garden, and occasionally go on trips with him. One day, after her 18th birthday, while Priklopil was distracted by a phone call, Natascha made a run for it. Rather than be arrested, Priklopil committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. Now, Natascha owns the house in which she was held prisoner, saying she doesn’t ever want it to be turned into a museum of her lost adolescence.
So, exactly how do the two cases compare then ?
Certainly not in the manner of disappearances.
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So, exactly how do the two cases compare then ?
Certainly not in the manner of disappearances.
My response was actually in answer to the comment "do people really believe that maddie would be alive and undamaged after almost 9 years? would anyone want a child to live like that for so long"
But to answer your question: One was abducted. The other may have been abducted. Both disappeared. After that - who knows.
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My response was actually in answer to the comment "do people really believe that maddie would be alive and undamaged after almost 9 years? would anyone want a child to live like that for so long"
But to answer your question: One was abducted. The other may have been abducted. Both disappeared. After that - who knows.
and one may have died before she disappeared.
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do people really believe that maddie would be alive and undamaged after almost 9 years? would anyone want a child to live like that for so long?
There is no reason why she couldn't be alive and well, it has happened before many times and will happen again.
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The chances of Madeleine being alive are very very slim. But it is still possible. Take the case of Natascha Kampusch for example.
Are you saying the McCanns should just give up and write her off? I do have sympathy with you, Carly. Having to read these forums and read these posts from "[ censored word ]" must be really annoying for you.
In my opinion ... a heinous crime has been committed.
That boils down to ... crime = victim = perpetrator = investigation.
Almost nine years ago a crime was committed in Luz and the investigation into it was botched.
Now that botched investigation into the crime is reactivated ... live lines of inquiry are being worked. Hopefully it will eventually be revealed what happened to the victim of the crime which took place all those years ago.
For me the following positives may occur
- perpetrators may be apprehended and brought to justice
- what happened to Madeleine McCann revealed
The biggest bonus of all would most certainly be the safe recovery of a living child, which is what I hope for. Others can hope for whatever suits them ... that is very much a decision for them.
At the least, should it be proved that Madeleine has been murdered; her remains recovered and returned to her family to enable them to have closure.
Apart from Madeleine's parents' inalienable right to the presumption of innocence ~ apart from the thorough 'going over' given by the Amaral and Rebelo investigations both of which looked into their every move ~ I do not have the arrogance which demands that strangers are somehow answerable to me.
Nor do I have a mindset which would allow me to join a gang with a purpose of heaping from afar, misery on people who have suffered a surfeit of it when their daughter was taken from them.
My conscience dictates that I do not attack the innocent and injured and I tend to leave investigations to those best qualified to conduct them.
It is also worth bearing in mind that without her parents' enduring efforts Madeleine's case would not be under way at the moment. That constitutes "justice" and it was action that achieved it to this stage ... not bleating about it.
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In my opinion ... a heinous crime has been committed. Is there evidence of a crime being committed?
That boils down to ... crime = victim = perpetrator = investigation.
Almost nine years ago a crime was committed in Luz and the investigation into it was botched. The investigation was taken as far as possible and then archived.
Now that botched investigation into the crime is reactivated ... live lines of inquiry are being worked. Hopefully it will eventually be revealed what happened to the victim of the crime which took place all those years ago.
For me the following positives may occur
- perpetrators may be apprehended and brought to justice
- what happened to Madeleine McCann revealed
The biggest bonus of all would most certainly be the safe recovery of a living child, which is what I hope for. Others can hope for whatever suits them ... that is very much a decision for them.
At the least, should it be proved that Madeleine has been murdered; her remains recovered and returned to her family to enable them to have closure.
Apart from Madeleine's parents' inalienable right to the presumption of innocence ~ apart from the thorough 'going over' given by the Amaral and Rebelo investigations both of which looked into their every move ~ I do not have the arrogance which demands that strangers are somehow answerable to me. I have seen nothing suggesting that anyone expects strangers to be 'answerable' to other strangers. I have seen puzzlement over certain aspects of this case which have remained unexplained for all these years.
Nor do I have a mindset which would allow me to join a gang with a purpose of heaping from afar, misery on people who have suffered a surfeit of it when their daughter was taken from them. It could be said there's a 'gang' whose purpose is to attack anyone whose views on the case don't match their own.
My conscience dictates that I do not attack the innocent and injured and I tend to leave investigations to those best qualified to conduct them. Everyone acts according to their own morals. It would be nice if those with different views were allowed their opinions and weren't continually subjected to posters suggesting that their opinions demonstrate their lack of moral fibre.
It is also worth bearing in mind that without her parents' enduring efforts Madeleine's case would not be under way at the moment. That constitutes "justice" and it was action that achieved it to this stage ... not bleating about it. The efforts of the parents which didn't extend to trying to stop the archiving of the original investigation, you mean?
Answers in purple.
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Please note.
This thread has been spun off from another topic.
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why was jassi post deleted dont people believe in having own opinions here? and yes i know i will get hostile response
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why was jassi post deleted dont people believe in having own opinions here? and yes i know i will get hostile response
Probably because most people like "hope" and cannot see, nor want to see that "hope" eventually becomes a destructive condition.
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Probably because most people like "hope" and cannot see, nor want to see that "hope" eventually becomes a destructive condition.
Nothing wrong with hope
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Probably because most people like "hope" and cannot see, nor want to see that "hope" eventually becomes a destructive condition.
Basing ones future on winning the lottery could be seen as destructive hope.
Hoping your child is still alive even though the chances are realistically slim, is not.
I am wondering what your point is?
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Basing ones future on winning the lottery could be seen as destructive hope.
Hoping your child is still alive even though the chances are realistically slim, is not.
I am wondering what your point is?
59C6 or 59C53, if you prefer, for the former. 8(0(*
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Are there any examples of abducted children being recovered after 8+ years due to an ongoing investigation? We have examples of them escaping or otherwise turning up, but through an investigation?
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Are there any examples of abducted children being recovered after 8+ years due to an ongoing investigation? We have examples of them escaping or otherwise turning up, but through an investigation?
not that I know of
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59C6 or 59C53, if you prefer, for the former. 8(0(*
45057474
Square root of -1 for the latter.
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Are there any examples of abducted children being recovered after 8+ years due to an ongoing investigation? We have examples of them escaping or otherwise turning up, but through an investigation?
I have no problem with a precedent being set.
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I have no problem with a precedent being set.
If only that could be a "we"!
I fear it can't (at least unanimously) ....
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not that I know of
That would rule it out, then ....
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I have no problem with a precedent being set.
Unusual for a supporter.
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That would rule it out, then ....
Even after all this time, nothing can be ruled out for certain.
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Unusual for a supporter.
Bleedin' amazin'.
Surely the rule of argument already laid down in that quarter is "if you can't show it happened before it can't happen" ?
Killing development stone dead but why let that get in the way?
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Bleedin' amazin'.
Surely the rule of argument already laid down in that quarter is "if you can't show it happened before it can't happen" ?
Killing development stone dead but why let that get in the way?
Rubbish. Anything's possible, it's just a question of how likely it is. I've never won the lottery before. It doesn't mean I will certainly never win it, but the likelihood is virtually nil (especially as I rarely buy a ticket).
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In my opinion ... a heinous crime has been committed.
That boils down to ... crime = victim = perpetrator = investigation.
Almost nine years ago a crime was committed in Luz and the investigation into it was botched.
Now that botched investigation into the crime is reactivated ... live lines of inquiry are being worked. Hopefully it will eventually be revealed what happened to the victim of the crime which took place all those years ago.
For me the following positives may occur
- perpetrators may be apprehended and brought to justice
- what happened to Madeleine McCann revealed
The biggest bonus of all would most certainly be the safe recovery of a living child, which is what I hope for. Others can hope for whatever suits them ... that is very much a decision for them.
At the least, should it be proved that Madeleine has been murdered; her remains recovered and returned to her family to enable them to have closure.
Apart from Madeleine's parents' inalienable right to the presumption of innocence ~ apart from the thorough 'going over' given by the Amaral and Rebelo investigations both of which looked into their every move ~ I do not have the arrogance which demands that strangers are somehow answerable to me.
Nor do I have a mindset which would allow me to join a gang with a purpose of heaping from afar, misery on people who have suffered a surfeit of it when their daughter was taken from them.
My conscience dictates that I do not attack the innocent and injured and I tend to leave investigations to those best qualified to conduct them.
It is also worth bearing in mind that without her parents' enduring efforts Madeleine's case would not be under way at the moment. That constitutes "justice" and it was action that achieved it to this stage ... not bleating about it.
Or some person or persons have escaped responsibility for a heinous crime.
By the way how would you could the crimes of mass murderers ?
A bit more than heinous perhaps ?
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45057474
Square root of -1 for the latter.
It's the same JP. @)(++(*
59C6 and 59C53 give the same answer.
P.S. I didn't need to Google it.
Look it up.
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It's the same JP. @)(++(*
59C6 and 59C53 give the same answer.
P.S. I didn't need to Google it.
Look it up.
There are not 59 balls in the lottery
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It's the same JP. @)(++(*
59C6 and 59C53 give the same answer.
P.S. I didn't need to Google it.
Look it up.
Read my answer very carefully Stephen - did I differentiate. ?{)(**
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Read my answer very carefully Stephen - did I differentiate. ?{)(**
Yep.
You referred to the square root of minus 1.
The 'i' s have it. %£5&% %£5&%
You could always try to integrate your answers, to make sense. 8)-)))
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Rubbish. Anything's possible, it's just a question of how likely it is. I've never won the lottery before. It doesn't mean I will certainly never win it, but the likelihood is virtually nil (especially as I rarely buy a ticket).
So why do you frequently ask "sceptics" for examples then?
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Are there any examples of abducted children being recovered after 8+ years due to an ongoing investigation? We have examples of them escaping or otherwise turning up, but through an investigation?
May 23, 2007
Justice minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin is setting up an investigation into the case of the Indian boy allegedly kidnapped from his home and later adopted by a Dutch couple. ‘This is a very serious case,’ Ballin is reported as saying. ‘Think of the repercussions for everyone involved.’ The boy was allegedly kidnapped in 1999 and sold to a children’s home with a false letter of acceptance from the parents. He was then brought to the Netherlands by a Dutch adoption agency and adopted by a Dutch couple. TV show Netwerk reported on Monday that the Indian police want the child returned to India for DNA tests and to rejoin his biological parents. According to the Netwerk report the Dutch agency has known the child had been kidnapped since 2005. Meanwhile, adoption specialist Rene Hoksbergen says it is possible that more Dutch adoption agencies are dealing in children stolen in India. He says 53 children have been brought to this country from the children’s centre involved in the Netwerk case.
Read more at DutchNews.nl: ‘Stolen boy’ may be one of dozens http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/05/stolen_boy_may_be_one_of_dozen/
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further to that:_
http://www.againstchildtrafficking.org/category/pap/nagarani/
Parents Nagarani and Kathirvel
Countries: India, The Netherlands
Agencies: Malaysian Social Services, Meiling
Nagarani and Kathrivel’s son was kidnapped during the night in Chennai, India. Five years later the kidnappers were arrested and they confessed that her son had been sold to an orphanage Malaysian Social Services Chennai and subsequently was given for adoption to adoptive parents in the Netherlands, through the mediation of a Dutch adoption agency.
ACT retraced the child in the Netherlands. The adoptive parents have so far refused to cooperate in DNA testing, to proof that the child is indeed Nagarani’s. ACT helped this Indian family to find a Dutch Attorney and to file a Court case in the Netherlands that took place in June 2010.
After two weeks, Nagarani and Kathirvel went back to India. Without even having met the adoptive parents, who did not appear in Court.
The Family Court of Zwolle-Lelystad has ruled on March 4 2011 in the case. The Indian couple’s request for a DNA test to determine that a boy adopted by Dutch parents is their biological son, was dismissed by the Court.
On 13 September 2012 the Dutch Appeal Court also dismissed the Indian’s parent’s request.
ACT is working on further actions.
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May 23, 2007
Justice minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin is setting up an investigation into the case of the Indian boy allegedly kidnapped from his home and later adopted by a Dutch couple. ‘This is a very serious case,’ Ballin is reported as saying. ‘Think of the repercussions for everyone involved.’ The boy was allegedly kidnapped in 1999 and sold to a children’s home with a false letter of acceptance from the parents. He was then brought to the Netherlands by a Dutch adoption agency and adopted by a Dutch couple. TV show Netwerk reported on Monday that the Indian police want the child returned to India for DNA tests and to rejoin his biological parents. According to the Netwerk report the Dutch agency has known the child had been kidnapped since 2005. Meanwhile, adoption specialist Rene Hoksbergen says it is possible that more Dutch adoption agencies are dealing in children stolen in India. He says 53 children have been brought to this country from the children’s centre involved in the Netwerk case.
Read more at DutchNews.nl: ‘Stolen boy’ may be one of dozens http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/05/stolen_boy_may_be_one_of_dozen/
======================================================================
further to that:_
http://www.againstchildtrafficking.org/category/pap/nagarani/
Parents Nagarani and Kathirvel
Countries: India, The Netherlands
Agencies: Malaysian Social Services, Meiling
Nagarani and Kathrivel’s son was kidnapped during the night in Chennai, India. Five years later the kidnappers were arrested and they confessed that her son had been sold to an orphanage Malaysian Social Services Chennai and subsequently was given for adoption to adoptive parents in the Netherlands, through the mediation of a Dutch adoption agency.
ACT retraced the child in the Netherlands. The adoptive parents have so far refused to cooperate in DNA testing, to proof that the child is indeed Nagarani’s. ACT helped this Indian family to find a Dutch Attorney and to file a Court case in the Netherlands that took place in June 2010.
After two weeks, Nagarani and Kathirvel went back to India. Without even having met the adoptive parents, who did not appear in Court.
The Family Court of Zwolle-Lelystad has ruled on March 4 2011 in the case. The Indian couple’s request for a DNA test to determine that a boy adopted by Dutch parents is their biological son, was dismissed by the Court.
On 13 September 2012 the Dutch Appeal Court also dismissed the Indian’s parent’s request.
ACT is working on further actions.
Not sure if that really counts.
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Not sure if that really counts.
It covers all the criteria in your question.
If a trafficker's remit is a white English girl, there can't be many better places to abduct one than from a holiday resort in an EU country with an inadequate police force & precious little CCTV.
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It covers all the criteria in your question.
If a trafficker's remit is a white English girl, there can't be many better places to abduct one than from a holiday resort in an EU country with an inadequate police force & precious little CCTV.
Then the media campaign publicising the eye defect began and they realised they had a child so recognisable that no-one would want her...
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Then the media campaign publicising the eye defect began and they realised they had a child so recognisable that no-one would want her...
You do know that between 4 & 19 in every 100.000 people suffer with coloboma ?
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Maybe but they're not all blonde girls of a certain age, are they ?
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Maybe but they're not all blonde girls of a certain age, are they ?
How many do you suppose their are in Sweden, Norway or Russia?
Did you know that Americans living in Russia are not allowed to adopt children from Russian orphanages?
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How many do you suppose their are in Sweden, Norway or Russia?
Did you know that Americans living in Russia are not allowed to adopt children from Russian orphanages?
Quite a lot, I imagine, but they will be of all ages including many adults, so not so many that would fit the criteria.
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Of course.
Austrian 10-year-old, Natascha Kampusch was abducted on her way to school in 1998, and not seen or heard from for 8 years. She spent those 8 years as a prisoner of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, where she acted as his maid, cook, companion, and victim of every kind of abuse. He kept her in a 5 by 5 foot, windowless cell for days at a time, and it wasn’t until she was older that he allowed her to spend time in the garden, and occasionally go on trips with him. One day, after her 18th birthday, while Priklopil was distracted by a phone call, Natascha made a run for it. Rather than be arrested, Priklopil committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. Now, Natascha owns the house in which she was held prisoner, saying she doesn’t ever want it to be turned into a museum of her lost adolescence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAxRCnoa9Aw
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Are there any examples of abducted children being recovered after 8+ years due to an ongoing investigation? We have examples of them escaping or otherwise turning up, but through an investigation?
Shawn Horbeck was found after 4+ years by police... but because they were hot on the trail of a different boy who'd been kidnapped a few days previously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_J._Devlin
It's not 8+ years, but it could have dragged on that long.
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May 23, 2007
Justice minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin is setting up an investigation into the case of the Indian boy allegedly kidnapped from his home and later adopted by a Dutch couple. ‘This is a very serious case,’ Ballin is reported as saying. ‘Think of the repercussions for everyone involved.’ The boy was allegedly kidnapped in 1999 and sold to a children’s home with a false letter of acceptance from the parents. He was then brought to the Netherlands by a Dutch adoption agency and adopted by a Dutch couple. TV show Netwerk reported on Monday that the Indian police want the child returned to India for DNA tests and to rejoin his biological parents. According to the Netwerk report the Dutch agency has known the child had been kidnapped since 2005. Meanwhile, adoption specialist Rene Hoksbergen says it is possible that more Dutch adoption agencies are dealing in children stolen in India. He says 53 children have been brought to this country from the children’s centre involved in the Netwerk case.
Read more at DutchNews.nl: ‘Stolen boy’ may be one of dozens http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/05/stolen_boy_may_be_one_of_dozen/
======================================================================
further to that:_
http://www.againstchildtrafficking.org/category/pap/nagarani/
Parents Nagarani and Kathirvel
Countries: India, The Netherlands
Agencies: Malaysian Social Services, Meiling
Nagarani and Kathrivel’s son was kidnapped during the night in Chennai, India. Five years later the kidnappers were arrested and they confessed that her son had been sold to an orphanage Malaysian Social Services Chennai and subsequently was given for adoption to adoptive parents in the Netherlands, through the mediation of a Dutch adoption agency.
ACT retraced the child in the Netherlands. The adoptive parents have so far refused to cooperate in DNA testing, to proof that the child is indeed Nagarani’s. ACT helped this Indian family to find a Dutch Attorney and to file a Court case in the Netherlands that took place in June 2010.
After two weeks, Nagarani and Kathirvel went back to India. Without even having met the adoptive parents, who did not appear in Court.
The Family Court of Zwolle-Lelystad has ruled on March 4 2011 in the case. The Indian couple’s request for a DNA test to determine that a boy adopted by Dutch parents is their biological son, was dismissed by the Court.
On 13 September 2012 the Dutch Appeal Court also dismissed the Indian’s parent’s request.
ACT is working on further actions.
A perfect example of why Madeleine's parents were advised to make her a Ward of Court ... were she to be found it is not Whoever? V McCann ... but Whoever? V Her Britannic Majesty's Government.
Disgraceful that the DNA request was refused.
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Basing ones future on winning the lottery could be seen as destructive hope.
Hoping your child is still alive even though the chances are realistically slim, is not.
I am wondering what your point is?
Do you really wish to know?
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So why do you frequently ask "sceptics" for examples then?
why not?
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A perfect example of why Madeleine's parents were advised to make her a Ward of Court ... were she to be found it is not Whoever? V McCann ... but Whoever? V Her Britannic Majesty's Government.
Disgraceful that the DNA request was refused.
Presumably the court considered it had good reason to do so.
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why not?
Because it really has no relevance.
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Because it really has no relevance.
why not?
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This boy was abducted age seven and escaped aged 14 -
• Steven Stayner was seven when he was abducted in California by Kenneth Parnell on the way home from school in 1972. Parnell called Stayner "Dennis" and told people he was his son, while moving around different areas of California. Stayner escaped aged 14, while Parnell was at work, rescuing another boy at the same time. Stayner died in a motorcycle crash nine years later. His story was dramatised in the TV mini series I Know My First Name is Steven.
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A perfect example of why Madeleine's parents were advised to make her a Ward of Court ... were she to be found it is not Whoever? V McCann ... but Whoever? V Her Britannic Majesty's Government.
Disgraceful that the DNA request was refused.
There could have been an issue under the UN Convention "Rights of the Child".
I don't think there is a law for mandatory DNA testing in child trafficking cases.
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There could have been an issue under the UN Convention "Rights of the Child".
I don't think there is a law for mandatory DNA testing in child trafficking cases.
This is why it will be difficult to retrieve Madeleine, even if they do know where she is.
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[There are loads of other reports on this case on the internet but this one covers most of the points.]
Children found after an investigation
... and a really bungled one at that. Some people have voiced the opinion that certain senior elements within the Police, did not want the perps or the missiung children found. Dunno if that is true, but having read many articles about it several years ago, I have big question marks in my mind about certain officials.
This takes a strong constitution to read. I suggest that you do not read if you are easily upset
Marc Dutroux and Nihoul
http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/belgium/358/belgian-pedophile-trafficking-ring-and-alleged-cover-up-marc-dutroux-and-nihoul/15315/
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And another
Jaycee Lee Duggard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Lee_Dugard
loads of reports on the internet, some saying that her abductor 'farmed her out', with a queue outside including Police Officers.
Several members of the public alerted the Police but nothing was done in depth. They 'searched the house and looked in the garden but didn't bother with the sheds at the bottom of the garden where Jaycee and her children lived, despite neighbours reports.
Rather like the Dutroux affair, doncha think. The Officials there ignored obvious signs.
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And a third
Elizabeth Smart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping
All these cases showed some reluctance by The Police to fully investigate, for one reason or another. The first two reasons are questionable and make me wonder if certain Police Officers were involved ... or the thrall of certain powerful people.
All these cases are of older girls than Madeleine. They were all abused. I have reasons for believing that Madeleine has not been abused.
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However, it doesn't mean Madeleine will be found alive.
Does it ?
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However, it doesn't mean Madeleine will be found alive.
Does it ?
No, it doesn't.
However, in the absence of any proof of her fate, what is your objection to the possibility that she might still be out there somewhere hoping for someone to rescue her?
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Why might she be expecting to be rescued?. She might be living the life of a pampered princess with loving 'parents'
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However, it doesn't mean Madeleine will be found alive.
Does it ?
About 4 years ago, I saw photos of a little girl that i believe to be Madeleine. I compared her to a particular photo of her Mum and certain features [bone structure especially and areas around the eyes and cheeks] were dead ringers. And she was in exactly the place that I had worked out that she was likely to be, based upon my suspect and where he was.
Not in PT nor in the UK.
To remind you, I used to teach Art and my hobby was portraiture and figure drawing, in which discipline I reached professional standard. I have a keen eye for shape.
This little girl, who I believe to be Madeleine, looked healthy and untouched, but I cannot be absolutely sure of the later.
If she had been kept alive for 5 years then, she had won her place in peoples hearts and become a member of the "family". It would be rare for someone to kill her after that length of time looking after her.
I think it likely that she is still alive and being looked after.
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About 4 years ago, I saw photos of a little girl that i believe to be Madeleine. I compared her to a particular photo of her Mum and certain features [bone structure especially and areas around the eyes and cheeks] were dead ringers. And she was in exactly the place that I had worked out that she was likely to be, based upon my suspect and where he was.
Not in PT nor in the UK.
To remind you, I used to teach Art and my hobby was portraiture and figure drawing, in which discipline I reached professional standard. I have a keen eye for shape.
This little girl, who I believe to be Madeleine, looked healthy and untouched, but I cannot be absolutely sure of the later.
If she had been kept alive for 5 years then, she had won her place in peoples hearts and become a member of the "family". It would be rare for someone to kill her after that length of time looking after her.
I think it likely that she is still alive and being looked after.
We know all about that already.
It wasn't Madeleine.
Perhaps you should take time out and study genetics, and see how many characteristics are similar in non 'related' individuals.
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We know all about that already.
It wasn't Madeleine.
Perhaps you should take time out and study genetics, and see how many characteristics are similar in non 'related' individuals.
If you have ever gone to pick up a child from ballet lessons it is difficult to ascertain which one is yours. They all look exactly the same. Same colour tights - same colour leotard - same colour hair band round the tightly pulled back bun - same shoes - same age.
One of them is yours.
What is to prevent Madeleine McCann blending in and looking like any one of the children sharing the "characteristics similar in non 'related' individuals".
Doesn't stop her being Madeleine McCann.
Just as my tiny ballerina was still my ballerina despite being one among twenty and I made sure I brought the right one home. It may be possible that Madeleine may be singled out of the crowd to be brought home ... what objection can there possibly be to that and why should good people like Sadie not keep looking for her?
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If you have ever gone to pick up a child from ballet lessons it is difficult to ascertain which one is yours. They all look exactly the same. Same colour tights - same colour leotard - same colour hair band round the tightly pulled back bun - same shoes - same age.
One of them is yours.
What is to prevent Madeleine McCann blending in and looking like any one of the children sharing the "characteristics similar in non 'related' individuals".
Doesn't stop her being Madeleine McCann.
Just as my tiny ballerina was still my ballerina despite being one among twenty and I made sure I brought the right one home. It may be possible that Madeleine may be singled out of the crowd to be brought home ... what objection can there possibly be to that and why should good people like Sadie not keep looking for her?
They can do what the hell they want, but be aware that some people, might find it extremely intrusive and rude, if certain people were to go up to them and say, to their daughter...........
'you've got Madeleine' or words to that effect.
That kind of behaviour is likely to initiate a reaction.
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If you have ever gone to pick up a child from ballet lessons it is difficult to ascertain which one is yours. They all look exactly the same. Same colour tights - same colour leotard - same colour hair band round the tightly pulled back bun - same shoes - same age.
One of them is yours.
What is to prevent Madeleine McCann blending in and looking like any one of the children sharing the "characteristics similar in non 'related' individuals".
Doesn't stop her being Madeleine McCann.
Just as my tiny ballerina was still my ballerina despite being one among twenty and I made sure I brought the right one home. It may be possible that Madeleine may be singled out of the crowd to be brought home ... what objection can there possibly be to that and why should good people like Sadie not keep looking for her?
GISS
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GISS
I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean ... but don't worry about it, I certainly don't.
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We know all about that already.
It wasn't Madeleine.
Perhaps you should take time out and study genetics, and see how many characteristics are similar in non 'related' individuals.
Ho Ho Ho. I seem to have upset you.
Each feature on a beings face has subtly different "tweaks" to it..... and those tweaks are what makes a face unique.
Everyone has a nose, everyone has two eyes and everyone has a mouth. The same for the chin, forehead, hairline and cheekbones. Some features are long and fat some short or slim; the spacing differs between individuals BUT on that simplistic basis, you with your professed Mathematical skills should be able to tell us how many variables there are before we return to the one face.
You know and I know that despite the limited number of variables coming together into a face, we can recognise people ....even between twins. The tiny "tweaks" as i call them, enable us to differentiate between faces. We are all slightly different.
Added to this, the little girl was dancing in exactly the place that i was looking for her, to within 50 yards .... and her mannerisms were Madeleines and her energy levels reminded me of her Mum. I looked in this particular place because my suspect was there.
Hey ho.
SY were interested, but you are not ... dismissing it willy nilly.
How do you know? You haven't even seen the photos.
You really are keen that people should believe Madeleine dead. Why? There has to be a reason
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Ho Ho Ho. I seem to have upset you.
Each feature on a beings face has subtly different "tweaks" to it..... and those tweaks are what makes a face unique.
Everyone has a nose, everyone has two eyes and everyone has a mouth. The same for the chin, forehead, hairline and cheekbones. Some features are long and fat some short or slim; the spacing differs between individuals BUT on that simplistic basis, you with your professed Mathematical skills should be able to tell us how many variables there are before we return to the one face.
You know and I know that despite the limited number of variables coming together into a face, we can recognise people ....even between twins. The tiny "tweaks" as i call them, enable us to differentiate between faces. We are all slightly different.
Added to this, the little girl was dancing in exactly the place that i was looking for her, to within 50 yards .... and her mannerisms were Madeleines and her energy levels reminded me of her Mum. I looked in this particular place because my suspect was there.
Hey ho.
SY were interested, but you are not ... dismissing it willy nilly.
How do you know? You haven't even seen the photos.
You really are keen that people should believe Madeleine dead. Why? There has to be a reason
It's called living in the real world Sadie.
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They can do what the hell they want, but be aware that some people, might find it extremely intrusive and rude, if certain people were to go up to them and say, to their daughter...........
'you've got Madeleine' or words to that effect.
That kind of behaviour is likely to initiate a reaction.
if they are innocent they have nothing to worry about is a phrase I have heard a lot on here
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It's called living in the real world Sadie.
as you are so fond of saying...crime if any unknown...then by your own admission Maddie may still be alive in a loving family
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They can do what the hell they want, but be aware that some people, might find it extremely intrusive and rude, if certain people were to go up to them and say, to their daughter...........
'you've got Madeleine' or words to that effect.
That kind of behaviour is likely to initiate a reaction.
We live in an era of smart phones and instant communication. Absolutely no need to put an innocent family in fear of a stranger showing an inordinate interest in their child ... or to alert the guilty.
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Ho Ho Ho. I seem to have upset you.
Each feature on a beings face has subtly different "tweaks" to it..... and those tweaks are what makes a face unique.
Everyone has a nose, everyone has two eyes and everyone has a mouth. The same for the chin, forehead, hairline and cheekbones. Some features are long and fat some short or slim; the spacing differs between individuals BUT on that simplistic basis, you with your professed Mathematical skills should be able to tell us how many variables there are before we return to the one face.
You know and I know that despite the limited number of variables coming together into a face, we can recognise people ....even between twins. The tiny "tweaks" as i call them, enable us to differentiate between faces. We are all slightly different.
Added to this, the little girl was dancing in exactly the place that i was looking for her, to within 50 yards .... and her mannerisms were Madeleines and her energy levels reminded me of her Mum. I looked in this particular place because my suspect was there.
Hey ho.
SY were interested, but you are not ... dismissing it willy nilly.
How do you know? You haven't even seen the photos.
You really are keen that people should believe Madeleine dead. Why? There has to be a reason
You aren't upsetting me Sadie, I don't know what gave you that idea.
However, when you carry on about your 'theories', I treat them in the same way as the Dan Brown books.
You are clearly obsessed in seeing what you wish to see.
I presume you are still paying visits to Belgravia Station to keep SY up to date with your theories. 8(>((
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We live in an era of smart phones and instant communication. Absolutely no need to put an innocent family in fear of a stranger showing an inordinate interest in their child ... or to alert the guilty.
The guilty Brietta ?
Who would 8)-))) they be ?
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If Madeleine has been sold to people who wanted a child, either through illegal adoption where they may not know the child has been adducted or abducted for them, I don't believe they would murder her because she has a slight mark in her eye.
There are many countries they could be in, where Madeleine's disappearance has been forgotten, most people are just carrying on with their lives as normal and wouldn't think anything of a child with a slight mark in her eye that you had to get close up to even see.
Her hair may have got darker, she may have hair like Gerry's and not Kate. It could be short and not long, anything would change her appearance.
With a new name she could be going to a private school or even be home tutored.
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Almost impossible to get her DNA since no one appears to have the right to demand this.
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It's called living in the real world Sadie.
There you go again 'it's called living in the real world Sadie'. Living in the real world means knowing that things can happen that are not expected, living in the real world means, just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone else has to believe it too, living in the real world means, even if you think all odds are against something you still have hope that maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
I read a story about a baby who was diagnosed with Meningitis, the child was gravely ill and the Drs. told the parents his organs were shutting down and to prepare for his death as he wasn't expected to live. The parents spent the hours which they believed were his last but they were both still hoping though they felt it was useless, that he would pull through, they phoned family and they came and said goodbye to him. Yet, his eyes flickered and he opened them, and gradually he got better.
That is life Stephen, that is living in the real world, where the unexpected could happen, and you have no right was so ever to call those who hope that they are not living in the real world, that because your world is so small and your glass always half empty you some how are more superior to others.
No doubt you will say 'told you so' if Madeleine is found dead, but to gloat about it would only show yourself up.
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In order to hope that Madeleine is alive it's necessary to believe she was abducted.
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We live in an era of smart phones and instant communication. Absolutely no need to put an innocent family in fear of a stranger showing an inordinate interest in their child ... or to alert the guilty.
So the authorities should just hack anyone they fancy?
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There you go again 'it's called living in the real world Sadie'. Living in the real world means knowing that things can happen that are not expected, living in the real world means, just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone else has to believe it too, living in the real world means, even if you think all odds are against something you still have hope that maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
I read a story about a baby who was diagnosed with Meningitis, the child was gravely ill and the Drs. told the parents his organs were shutting down and to prepare for his death as he wasn't expected to live. The parents spent the hours which they believed were his last but they were both still hoping though they felt it was useless, that he would pull through, they phoned family and they came and said goodbye to him. Yet, his eyes flickered and he opened them, and gradually he got better.
That is life Stephen, that is living in the real world, where the unexpected could happen, and you have no right was so ever to call those who hope that they are not living in the real world, that because your world is so small and your glass always half empty you some how are more superior to others.
No doubt you will say 'told you so' if Madeleine is found dead, but to gloat about it would only show yourself up.
I would not gloat, why would I.
I simply believe, as many other people do, that she is no longer alive.
I do live in the real world and I don't believe in fantasies.
I take it as rote, that you also espouse Sadie's theories as well.
If so, that is your problem, not mine.
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So the authorities should just hack anyone they fancy?
I did not say that.
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I did not say that.
Maybe you clarify what you did mean then?
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I would not gloat, why would I.
I simply believe, as many other people do, that she is no longer alive.
I do live in the real world and I don't believe in fantasies.
I take it as rote, that you also espouse Sadie's theories as well.
If so, that is your problem, not mine.
Madeleine may be dead, but I still hope that she isn't, that is not believing in fantasies, I also live in the real world.
Sadie has her theories I wouldn't discount them as I not in a position to know if they are right or not and neither are you.
We are all here to debate and not put others down for what they believe, everyone is entitled to have an opinion and no one need think they are more superior than another.
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Madeleine may be dead, but I still hope that she isn't, that is not believing in fantasies, I also live in the real world.
Sadie has her theories I wouldn't discount them as I not in a position to know if they are right or not and neither are you.
We are all here to debate and not put others down for what they believe, everyone is entitled to have an opinion and no one need think they are more superior than another.
You seem quite happy then for Sadie to attack my views on the case.
I notice you don not condemn her when she makes her comments on other peoples motives.
That is the typical behaviour I have observed, time and time again.
Mccann supporters don't like being criticized, but are quite happy to attack others.
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Almost impossible to get her DNA since no one appears to have the right to demand this.
Whose DNA? Madeleine's is available to anyone who understands such things.
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Whose DNA? Madeleine's is available to anyone who understands such things.
The DNA of any child who could be Madeleine. No one has the right to demand this as far as I can see.
And a Court somewhere has just denied the natural parents this right, even though the child could well be theirs.
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You seem quite happy then for Sadie to attack my views on the case.
I notice you don not condemn her when she makes her comments on other peoples motives.
That is the typical behaviour I have observed, time and time again.
Mccann supporters don't like being criticized, but are quite happy to attack others.
You are always quick to say I am living in fantasy land, every opportunity you have.
Now, Stephen, I am not wasting anymore time discussing this.
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You are always quick to say I am living in fantasy land, every opportunity you have.
Now, Stephen, I am not wasting anymore time discussing this.
Rubbish.
I do not say you are living in fantasy l;and all the time.
I also note you do not acknowledge that Sadie questions the motives or beliefs of others, when she clearly does.
That makes you a hypocrite.
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Maybe you clarify what you did mean then?
Oh dear ... you really require clarification??? My phone may be tired and ancient but even I am aware of how an all singing all dancing smartphone operates. Mysterious things called apps ...
AMBER Alert
By Jonathan Zdziarski
View More by This Developer
Open iTunes to buy and download apps.
Description
This official application from the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children® (NCMEC) is designed to help in the search for and safe recovery of missing children. It includes:
**Snip
If a user has information about a case or has seen one of the missing children, they can press a button and automatically call NCMEC’s toll-free 24-hour hotline 1-800-THE-LOST (800-843-5678), or send a report that includes their current GPS coordinates and their phone number in case more details are needed. NCMEC staff will use the information from these calls and reports to potentially help law enforcement recover the missing child.
Please consider downloading the AMBER Alert and Missing Children Applications. You might be able to help an abducted or missing child come home safely. For more information about this application and other ways that you can get involved, please visit NCMEC’s website at www.missingkids.com.
https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/amber-alert/id305574085?mt=8
That is an American version, but I am sure the European one will be much the same.
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Can we stop this, please. I shall be deleting in a minute.
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The DNA of any child who could be Madeleine. No one has the right to demand this as far as I can see.
And a Court somewhere has just denied the natural parents this right, even though the child could well be theirs.
This may be of interest.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10254236
7 June 2010
From the section Latin America & Caribbean
Marcela and Felipe Noble Herrera
Image caption
Marcela and Felipe say they have no wish to discover their birth families
Scientists in Argentina have begun DNA tests on the adopted heirs to a media empire to see who their natural parents are.
A judge ordered the tests to see if Marcela and Felipe Noble Herrera were taken from people killed during military rule in the 1970s and 80s.
Human rights groups say the children were then given up for adoption.
The siblings say their privacy is being violated and there is no evidence against their adoptive mother.
Marcela and Felipe surrendered clothes so that samples of their DNA could be taken after a court order last week.
The DNA will be compared to samples given by hundreds of families whose relatives were tortured and murdered during military rule from 1976 to 1983, a period known as Argentina's Dirty War.
It may take weeks for the results to be known.
Victim support groups first said in 2001 that they believed the biological mothers of Marcela and Felipe were among the hundreds of women who gave birth in clandestine torture centres and were then murdered.
The Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo group alleges that Ernestina Herrera de Noble, who owns the Clarin media conglomerate, illegally adopted them 34 years ago.
Marcela and Felipe say the demand for DNA tests is part of a politically motivated campaign against their adoptive mother, who has clashed with the government of President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner.
Identity
They have said there is no evidence that they were born in jail and seized from their biological parents, and that they have no desire to know more about their birth families.
"Our identity is ours. It's a private thing and I don't think it's up to the state or the Grandmothers to come and tell us what is ours," Marcela said.
They say that if the tests show they are the offspring of murdered political prisoners, they do not want to become the physical evidence against their mother.
Ernestina Herrera de Noble's lawyer has said that the prosecution would still have to prove she knowingly adopted stolen children.
Under military rule, babies were often given to families considered loyal to the regime.
The Grandmothers have identified dozens of children of people who disappeared during this time.
But some adopted children have said they would rather not know their origins, especially if the information implicates their adoptive parents in illegal acts.
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IMO, the difficulties show that applying for Ward of Court status was a sensible one.
I'm still mystified as to where the question to Kate about her wanting to hand over custody to a relative came from...
The only connection that comes to mind is that the PJ "misunderstood" the purpose...
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IMO, the difficulties show that applying for Ward of Court status was a sensible one.
I'm still mystified as to where the question to Kate about her wanting to hand over custody to a relative came from...
The only connection that comes to mind is that the PJ "misunderstood" the purpose...
The quoted reasons for making Madeleine a ward of court seem to have been related to a possible need to obtain evidence not normally available to the public such as telephone records and airline bookings. No doubt the court could ask for DNA tests to be performed in another country, but I would imagine that country would only comply if they thought the request was reasonable.
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The quoted reasons for making Madeleine a ward of court seem to have been related to a possible need to obtain evidence not normally available to the public such as telephone records and airline bookings. No doubt the court could ask for DNA tests to be performed in another country, but I would imagine that country would only comply if they thought the request was reasonable.
I thought one of the main reasons was to prevent any convoluted legal wrangling which might occur between 'adoptive' parents and natural parents - because as a WOC she would have to be immediately handed over the the nearest British Embassy?
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I thought one of the main reasons was to prevent any convoluted legal wrangling which might occur between 'adoptive' parents and natural parents - because as a WOC she would have to be immediately handed over the the nearest British Embassy?
Don't know. But The British Embassy has got to get their hands on her first. This would be the difficult bit.
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Yes, one imagines that it would need to be proved beyond any shadow of a doubt to the country involved that the child was Madeleine, before she would be delivered up to UK jurisdiction.
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The quoted reasons for making Madeleine a ward of court seem to have been related to a possible need to obtain evidence not normally available to the public such as telephone records and airline bookings. No doubt the court could ask for DNA tests to be performed in another country, but I would imagine that country would only comply if they thought the request was reasonable.
Ward of Court status often applies to adoption or other situations related to a child's welfare.
Have you found any explanation as why the original PJ team asked Kate whether she was thinking of handing over custody of Madeleine to a relative?
I haven't. I'm therefore wondering if the PJ had "misunderstood" the purpose of applying for it.
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Ward of Court status often applies to adoption or other situations related to a child's welfare.
Have you found any explanation as why the original PJ team asked Kate whether she was thinking of handing over custody of Madeleine to a relative?
I haven't. I'm therefore wondering if the PJ had "misunderstood" the purpose of applying for it.
If that was so, you might think that Kate would have bene only to pleased to clarify the situation.
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Yes, one imagines that it would need to be proved beyond any shadow of a doubt to the country involved that the child was Madeleine, before she would be delivered up to UK jurisdiction.
And how exactly were they going to get her DNA in the first place? Believe me, I have considered every angle I can think of on this one. And apart from a passing chance there isn't one, if the supposed parents refuse, which they will obviously do if they are guilty.
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If that was so, you might think that Kate would have bene only to pleased to clarify the situation.
How would Kate have known what was going through their heads, or where they got the idea from.
It just sounds very insulting to me.
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And how exactly were they going to get her DNA in the first place? Believe me, I have considered every angle I can think of on this one. And apart from a passing chance there isn't one, if the supposed parents refuse, which they will obviously do if they are guilty.
Exactly. I agree with you on this one.
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Exactly. I agree with you on this one.
That pleases me more than you might think.
I am working on the theory that Scotland Yard knows where Madeleine is, but can't actually do anything about it.
All speculation, of course, but worth thinking about.
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And how exactly were they going to get her DNA in the first place? Believe me, I have considered every angle I can think of on this one. And apart from a passing chance there isn't one, if the supposed parents refuse, which they will obviously do if they are guilty.
Drawing inferences from refusals is a slippery slope.
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Drawing inferences from refusals is a slippery slope.
That isn't my point, but you know that. Anyone can refuse. But especially The Guilty.
I am just exploring how difficult it would be to establish that a child is Madeleine, since some Courts are now refusing DNA Tests.
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And I suppose, if we move a few years on, this hypothetical child might herself refuse to be tested.
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I thought one of the main reasons was to prevent any convoluted legal wrangling which might occur between 'adoptive' parents and natural parents - because as a WOC she would have to be immediately handed over the the nearest British Embassy?
The lawyers then talked to us
about applying for an order to make Madeleine a
ward of court.
Wardship status gives the courts certain statutory
powers to act on a child’s behalf in any legal
disputes and to bypass some of the data-protection
laws that deal with access to information (hotel guest
records, for example, and airline passenger lists),
when knowledge of this information is considered to
be in the interests of the child in question. Such an
order could be useful in acquiring records not
otherwise available to us that might be relevant in
our case. We decided to proceed with an
application, which was granted in due course
Madeleine chapter 8.
They used the Ward of Court status to try to get the evidence held by Leicestershire Police, but it didn't work.
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And I suppose, if we move a few years on, this hypothetical child might herself refuse to be tested.
Indeed, she might. Nothing to be done about that. But at least the child would then appear to be happy.
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The lawyers then talked to us
about applying for an order to make Madeleine a
ward of court.
Wardship status gives the courts certain statutory
powers to act on a child’s behalf in any legal
disputes and to bypass some of the data-protection
laws that deal with access to information (hotel guest
records, for example, and airline passenger lists),
when knowledge of this information is considered to
be in the interests of the child in question. Such an
order could be useful in acquiring records not
otherwise available to us that might be relevant in
our case. We decided to proceed with an
application, which was granted in due course
Madeleine chapter 8.
They used the Ward of Court status to try to get the evidence held by Leicestershire Police, but it didn't work.
That is your interpretation of what The McCanns were trying to do.
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The lawyers then talked to us
about applying for an order to make Madeleine a
ward of court.
Wardship status gives the courts certain statutory
powers to act on a child’s behalf in any legal
disputes and to bypass some of the data-protection
laws that deal with access to information (hotel guest
records, for example, and airline passenger lists),
when knowledge of this information is considered to
be in the interests of the child in question. Such an
order could be useful in acquiring records not
otherwise available to us that might be relevant in
our case. We decided to proceed with an
application, which was granted in due course
Madeleine chapter 8.
They used the Ward of Court status to try to get the evidence held by Leicestershire Police, but it didn't work.
Yes I'm not disputing that G. I just remembered reading about the other reason for the WoC status.
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That is your interpretation of what The McCanns were trying to do.
On 22nd May 2007 an order was made requiring any person on whom the Order was served to disclose to the parents' solicitors any information which might assist in identifying Madeleine's whereabouts. Among the bodies on whom the Order was served was the Leicestershire Constabulary, who immediately expressed doubts as to whether the Order was intended to or could properly extend to them.
LP. The Attorney General and the Serious Organised Crimes Agency were all prepared to fight this Order through the courts, so the parents eventually withdrew the application. LP gave them 81 pieces of information (of 11,000 held) which had resulted from their solicitor's early appeals. The McCanns weren't happy but had to accept it on 7th July 2008.
At the same hearing the Order was changed so it no longer applied to any law enforcement agencies, including LP.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
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On 22nd May 2007 an order was made requiring any person on whom the Order was served to disclose to the parents' solicitors any information which might assist in identifying Madeleine's whereabouts. Among the bodies on whom the Order was served was the Leicestershire Constabulary, who immediately expressed doubts as to whether the Order was intended to or could properly extend to them.
LP. The Attorney General and the Serious Organised Crimes Agency were all prepared to fight this Order through the courts, so the parents eventually withdrew the application. LP gave them 81 pieces of information (of 11,000 held) which had resulted from their solicitor's early appeals. The McCanns weren't happy but had to accept it on 7th July 2008.
At the same hearing the Order was changed so it no longer applied to any law enforcement agencies, including LP.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
Exactly.
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Drawing inferences from refusals is a slippery slope.
It's not Maddie: DNA tests prove New Zealand girl is not missing Madeleine McCann
- UK police requested a DNA sample from the girl
- It follows latest 'sighting' on New Year's Eve in Queenstown last year
- Girl is frequently mistaken for Madeleine, who vanished in 2007
- She volunteered to undergo test to confirm she is not the missing girl
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 09:41, 13 February 2013 | UPDATED: 11:02, 13 February 2
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277943/Madeleine-McCann-DNA-tests-prove-New-Zealand-girl-NOT-missing-Maddie.html#ixzz3zym2TVZH
In accordance with the discussion re children's rights it seems this little girl was fed up being mistaken for Madeleine and had no problem having her cheek swabbed.
An interesting future situation might be were the parents opposed to acceding to the request but the child was willing to go ahead.
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It's not Maddie: DNA tests prove New Zealand girl is not missing Madeleine McCann
- UK police requested a DNA sample from the girl
- It follows latest 'sighting' on New Year's Eve in Queenstown last year
- Girl is frequently mistaken for Madeleine, who vanished in 2007
- She volunteered to undergo test to confirm she is not the missing girl
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 09:41, 13 February 2013 | UPDATED: 11:02, 13 February 2
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277943/Madeleine-McCann-DNA-tests-prove-New-Zealand-girl-NOT-missing-Maddie.html#ixzz3zym2TVZH
In accordance with the discussion re children's rights it seems this little girl was fed up being mistaken for Madeleine and had no problem having her cheek swabbed.
An interesting future situation might be were the parents opposed to acceding to the request but the child was willing to go ahead.
The little girl in New Zealand resembled Madeleine so much, down to the fleck in her eye I believe, that she was thought to be Madeleine on more than one occasion.
Yet she was never checked out in any way by the Policia Judiciaria.
NZ police defend inaction on McCann sighting ABC News Australia
Posted: 11:00AM BST UK
New Zealand police have defended their lack of action over a possible sighting of missing British girl Madeleine McCann, saying they were never asked to do anything.
Inspector David Campbell said all details of the December 2007 sighting were passed to Interpol and no instructions came back for a follow-up investigation.
:: :: :: :: ::
Inspector Campbell, the regional police commander, said police took the footage of the child - who had the appearance of Madeleine - and the family with her and forwarded it to Interpol.
"The lead jurisdiction, in this case Portugal, directs how the case progresses and it has not asked NZ police for any follow-up to date," Inspector Campbell said, adding that the NZ file remained open.
The dossier released to British newspapers showed information which police in the United States, Europe and North Africa considered important was also discarded.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Dossier.htm
Had that little girl and her family moved to another country before she was eliminated from the inquiry, there would always have remained the suspicion she may have been Madeleine.
Distressing when the only action required of the Portuguese was to pass the information to Madeleine's parents for their detectives to check out; an action which would have had the by product of ensuring the little girl did not recieve the unwarranted attention she did.
Out there could be a little girl who had been moved on before she could be checked out for elimination purposes. That child could have been Madeleine.
She had the right to be looked for, but she was denied that right. She could therefore be alive and well because for so many years while she remained recognisable she was not looked for quite simply because incoming credible information was ignored.
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It's not Maddie: DNA tests prove New Zealand girl is not missing Madeleine McCann
- UK police requested a DNA sample from the girl
- It follows latest 'sighting' on New Year's Eve in Queenstown last year
- Girl is frequently mistaken for Madeleine, who vanished in 2007
- She volunteered to undergo test to confirm she is not the missing girl
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 09:41, 13 February 2013 | UPDATED: 11:02, 13 February 2
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277943/Madeleine-McCann-DNA-tests-prove-New-Zealand-girl-NOT-missing-Maddie.html#ixzz3zym2TVZH
In accordance with the discussion re children's rights it seems this little girl was fed up being mistaken for Madeleine and had no problem having her cheek swabbed.
An interesting future situation might be were the parents opposed to acceding to the request but the child was willing to go ahead.
It would require parental consent, though. If it was out of pure curiosity, and if the youngster was aware of the situation, I expect a young teenager could buy a kit off the Internet.
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If my daughter was pursued like that I would sue the McCann family for harrassment, invasion of privacy etc.
I wonder why she has not been declared dead as this can be done after 7 years. Oh we know why... cha ching!
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If my daughter was pursued like that I would sue the McCann family for harrassment, invasion of privacy etc.
I wonder why she has not been declared dead as this can be done after 7 years. Oh we know why... cha ching!
Perhaps you would like to give us some evidence that the McCann are in it for the money.
You could start with an explanation as to why when money began to be donated - they chose not to put it into their own private bank accounts and say 'thank you very much' - but instead arranged for it to be put into a fund.
Then perhaps you could explain why these money grabbers IYO - have donated so much of the other money which they could have also put into their own private accounts into the fund - the £500,000 compensation for libel for instance.
Then perhaps you could explain why money grabbing Kate would decide to put all the profits from her book into the fund and not into her private bank account.
Then perhaps you could explain why they decided to give the £55,000 compensation for libel to two charities and not put it into their own private bank accounts.
Then perhaps you could explain why they would agree to hand over hundreds of thousands of pounds to private investigators - when all they had to do was say No - we prefer to carry out investigations ourselves.
Then perhaps you could provide us with some evidence of a lavish lifestyle now enjoyed by the McCanns? Any yachts or Jags on the drive, a new mansion, exotic holidays, private schools for the the twins, designer clothes, expensive jewellery etc etc?
I await your evidence with interest.
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If my daughter was pursued like that I would sue the McCann family for harrassment, invasion of privacy etc.
I wonder why she has not been declared dead as this can be done after 7 years. Oh we know why... cha ching!
You would have no grounds to sue the McCanns. It's no-one's fault if a child happens to bear a strong resemblance to Madeleine McCann. Are you saying that the McCanns were wrong to take the advice of the experts and try to keep her profile as high as possible in the public eye - on the grounds that there might be a child out there who resembles her - but isn't her?
If you believe that then you obviously disagree with all those parents who follow the expert advice on the best action a parent can to take in order to give a missing child the best chance possible of being found.
What a spiteful, mean-spirited attitude.
IMO
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Perhaps you would like to give us some evidence that the McCann are in it for the money.
You could start with an explanation as to why when money began to be donated - they chose not to put it into their own private bank accounts and say 'thank you very much' - but instead arranged for it to be put into a fund.
Then perhaps you could explain why these money grabbers IYO - have donated so much of the other money which they could have also put into their own private accounts into the fund - the £500,000 compensation for libel for instance.
Then perhaps you could explain why money grabbing Kate would decide to put all the profits from her book into the fund and not into her private bank account.
Then perhaps you could explain why they decided to give the £55,000 compensation for libel to two charities and not put it into their own private bank accounts.
Then perhaps you could explain why they would agree to hand over hundreds of thousands of pounds to private investigators - when all they had to do was say No - we prefer to carry out investigations ourselves.
Then perhaps you could provide us with some evidence of a lavish lifestyle now enjoyed by the McCanns? Any yachts or Jags on the drive, a new mansion, exotic holidays, private schools for the the twins, designer clothes, expensive jewellery etc etc?
I await your evidence with interest.
That's a really good post, Benice.
An interesting comparison to the person who did pocket the money.
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There is a small chance. But at the risk of sounding harsh, I really really hope she isn't.
My reason for this is, if the theory of abduction by padeophile is correct, then it is no life for a child to go through 9 years of being abused. It would be much better for the child to have met her end early on.
I can't believe I have just typed that as it just sounds wrong, I hope I explained my reasoning properly though.
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There is a small chance. But at the risk of sounding harsh, I really really hope she isn't.
My reason for this is, if the theory of abduction by padeophile is correct, then it is no life for a child to go through 9 years of being abused. It would be much better for the child to have met her end early on.
I can't believe I have just typed that as it just sounds wrong, I hope I explained my reasoning properly though.
Ooh, you risk being burned at the stake for such heresy. The only tolerated position is that she is alive and well and being treated like a princess somewhere
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Ooh, you risk being burned at the stake for such heresy. The only tolerated position is that she is alive and well and being treated like a princess somewhere
I would really love this to be true. But abduction by paedophile does not really sound too optimistic for a decent life 8(8-))
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There is a small chance. But at the risk of sounding harsh, I really really hope she isn't.
My reason for this is, if the theory of abduction by padeophile is correct, then it is no life for a child to go through 9 years of being abused. It would be much better for the child to have met her end early on.
I can't believe I have just typed that as it just sounds wrong, I hope I explained my reasoning properly though.
I'm afraid it sounds quite appalling. There any many people throughout history who have had to live with unimaginable hardship and horror but who have done everything within their power to stay alive no matter how awful their situation - it's repulsive IMO to wish people dead in the way you have. Would you have wished for no survivors of *Godwin Klaxon* Auschwitz when it was liberated on the basis of the suffering that went on in there?
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I would really love this to be true. But abduction by paedophile does not really sound too optimistic for a decent life 8(8-))
No, but she has never appeared on any of these 'dark' sites that we are told about, so perhapsthat scenario never happened.
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Ooh, you risk being burned at the stake for such heresy. The only tolerated position is that she is alive and well and being treated like a princess somewhere
Rubbish. Many supporters think it's most likely Madeleine died within hours or days of being taken.
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t was sarcasm, Alfred, sarcasm.
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I would really love this to be true. But abduction by paedophile does not really sound too optimistic for a decent life 8(8-))
If she is dead, I can only hope that she was asphyxiated and it was all over in seconds.
However, other children have indeed been abducted and held, hoping against hope that people hadn't given up on them and would rescue them.
In the absence of any evidence that Madeleine is dead, how can those close to her simply give up on trying to find her, or what happened to her?
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I'm afraid it sounds quite appalling. There any many people throughout history who have had to live with unimaginable hardship and horror but who have done everything within their power to stay alive no matter how awful their situation - it's repulsive IMO to wish people dead in the way you have. Would you have wished for no survivors of *Godwin Klaxon* Auschwitz when it was liberated on the basis of the suffering that went on in there?
I think you are twisting what I said to be quite honest. I do not 'wish' Madeleine dead, I simply feel this would be better for her IF the line that she was stolen by a paedophile/paedophile ring is true.
I can't find it in me to be hopeful that she is still alive and suffering at the hands of a monster as she has been for 9 years, sorry.
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t was sarcasm, Alfred, sarcasm.
No it wasn't. You think all supporters are away with the fairies, admit it.
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If she is dead, I can only hope that she was asphyxiated and it was all over in seconds.
However, other children have indeed been abducted and held, hoping against hope that people hadn't given up on them and would rescue them.
In the absence of any evidence that Madeleine is dead, how can those close to her simply give up on trying to find her, or what happened to her?
No idea, why should they give up trying to find her if they think she is alive? I have never said this.
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I think you are twisting what I said to be quite honest. I do not 'wish' Madeleine dead, I simply feel this would be better for her IF the line that she was stolen by a paedophile/paedophile ring is true.
I can't find it in me to be hopeful that she is still alive and suffering at the hands of a monster as she has been for 9 years, sorry.
You really hope she's not alive, which sounds like a wish to me.
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You really hope she's not alive, which sounds like a wish to me.
I do hope she is not alive, if she was indeed taken by paedophiles as is claimed..as me hoping for her to still be alive is pretty much hoping that she has been tortured for 8 years, as thats what those people do. She may never be released and may go through it for longer. I cannot find it in me, to hope for such things.
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There is a small chance. But at the risk of sounding harsh, I really really hope she isn't.
My reason for this is, if the theory of abduction by padeophile is correct, then it is no life for a child to go through 9 years of being abused. It would be much better for the child to have met her end early on.
I can't believe I have just typed that as it just sounds wrong, I hope I explained my reasoning properly though.
You are right. I can't believe that you have just typed that either.
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I do hope she is not alive, if she was indeed taken by paedophiles as is claimed..as me hoping for her to still be alive is pretty much hoping that she has been tortured for 8 years, as thats what those people do. She may never be released and may go through it for longer. I cannot find it in me, to hope for such things.
children have survived in the clutches of evil men for many years, and I've not heard of any killing themselves as a way out, though granted this may have happened. The will to survive and live tends to outweigh all other concerns and it doesn't help children in these situations to hope and pray that they were put out of their misery at the earliest opportunity.
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I think you are twisting what I said to be quite honest. I do not 'wish' Madeleine dead, I simply feel this would be better for her IF the line that she was stolen by a paedophile/paedophile ring is true.
I can't find it in me to be hopeful that she is still alive and suffering at the hands of a monster as she has been for 9 years, sorry.
If Madeleine is alive and suffering the abuse you have described ... is the remedy to ignore her and walk away with a clear conscience?
There seems to be a consensus that Madeleine McCann should not be looked for nor any attempt made to find out what happened to her.
Surely a get out of jail free clause for a criminal or criminals?
I find your suggestion abhorrent that Madeleine may have been suffering for nine years ... so why bother ?? ... and however you present it, that is your intent based on your own words.
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If Madeleine is alive and suffering the abuse you have described ... is the remedy to ignore her and walk away with a clear conscience?
There seems to be a consensus that Madeleine McCann should not be looked for nor any attempt made to find out what happened to her.
Surely a get out of jail free clause for a criminal or criminals?
I find your suggestion abhorrent that Madeleine may have been suffering for nine years ... so why bother ?? ... and however you present it, that is your intent based on your own words.
She has been looked for , for almost 9 years.
What part of that have you missed, and with nothing to show for it ?
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Enough. I will not have this. There will be no discussion of what might have happened to Madeleine at the hands of a paedophile.
I will not allow this to be discussed.
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Enough. I will not have this. There will be no discussion of what might have happened to Madeleine at the hands of a paedophile.
I will not allow this to be discussed.
Couldn't agree more; I don't think there is any place on this forum for that sort of speculation ... don't mind at all if my post is deleted. Sorry.
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Couldn't agree more; I don't think there is any place on this forum for that sort of speculation ... don't mind at all if my post is deleted. Sorry.
Thank you for your support, Brietta.
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Can I just point out again, as my reply was deleted despite not speculating anything about that... that I did not mean that the search should stop. I don't think the search should end at all until Madeleine is found fullstop.
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Thank you for your support, Brietta.
We should obviously not be discussing any prurient details of what may have happened to Madeleine. We cannot ignore the possibility that if she is still alive, depending upon who has her, she may not be in a good place.
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Ooh, you risk being burned at the stake for such heresy. The only tolerated position is that she is alive and well and being treated like a princess somewhere
You clearly don't read this board too closely ....
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We should obviously not be discussing any prurient details of what may have happened to Madeleine. We cannot ignore the possibility that if she is still alive, depending upon who has her, she may not be in a good place.
I try very hard never to gainsay you or any other Moderator on this Forum, as you well know. But I will not have this particulier discussion.
This is my final word. Take it up with John if you don't like it. I shall continue to delete any post heading that way.
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You clearly don't read this board too closely ....
I refer you to post 123 8(0(*
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Would anyone care to explain why they think Madeleine may be alive, regardless of the fact no trace of her has been found almost 9 years later ?
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Would anyone care to explain why they think Madeleine may be alive, regardless of the fact no trace of her has been found almost 9 years later ?
Not only alive, but presumably within a happy family group who take her out and about where she can be seen.
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Not only alive, but presumably within a happy family group who take her out and about where she can be seen.
and totally unaware of who she really is......
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and totally unaware of who she really is......
i find it hard to believe that people are in so much denial of the real world......
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Not only alive, but presumably within a happy family group who take her out and about where she can be seen.
Madeleine could be with another family, you just don't know, she could be with a paedophile, you just don't know or she could be dead, no one knows.
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i find it hard to believe that people are in so much denial of the real world......
Who is in denial of the real world? If you are saying that Madeleine is definitely dead then YOU are in denial of the real world, as it is quite possible she isn't.
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Who is in denial of the real world? If you are saying that Madeleine is definitely dead then YOU are in denial of the real world, as it is quite possible she isn't.
I have just posted on the General Discussion topic about a kidnapped Japanese girl who has turned up alive after 2 years. I hadn't previously heard of her - wonder how many in the world were actively looking for her and why she couldn't get access to a mobile device?
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Who is in denial of the real world? If you are saying that Madeleine is definitely dead then YOU are in denial of the real world, as it is quite possible she isn't.
I don't say all, but certainly too many (who insist Madeleine is dead) do so from malign motives.
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I don't say all, but certainly too many (who insist Madeleine is dead) do so from malign motives.
Such as ?
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Such as ?
Indeed. ferryman needs to explain that.
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This thread is going off topic.
Then, would anyone care to explain why they think Madeleine may be alive, regardless of the fact no trace of her has been found almost 9 years later ?
Because no trace of her has been found.
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Because no trace of her has been found.
Yet another mobius loop on the forum.
That is precisely the reason why she won't be found alive.
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...
Then, would anyone care to explain why they think Madeleine may be alive, regardless of the fact no trace of her has been found almost 9 years later ?
1 Of the alternatives I can assess, pre-planned abduction is the most probable.
2 IF so, the split is then paedophilia v placement/replacement.
3 OG has done a lot of work on the paedophilia angle. It looks like OG has found nothing down this route. I will concede in advance that there are scenarios in this instance where no evidence would come to light. I'm simply seeing a lot of activity that has occurred, but action does not appear to be on the horizon.
4 That leaves placement/replacement. It is hardly high probability, merely the highest out of the alternatives. Before anyone asks, there are vast swathes of the world where the Madeleine case has hardly made a ripple.
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1 Of the alternatives I can assess, pre-planned abduction is the most probable.
2 IF so, the split is then paedophilia v placement/replacement.
3 OG has done a lot of work on the paedophilia angle. It looks like OG has found nothing down this route. I will concede in advance that there are scenarios in this instance where no evidence would come to light. I'm simply seeing a lot of activity that has occurred, but action does not appear to be on the horizon.
4 That leaves placement/replacement. It is hardly high probability, merely the highest out of the alternatives. Before anyone asks, there are vast swathes of the world where the Madeleine case has hardly made a ripple.
Presumably this will have been as intensively investigated as paedophilia and yet, as far as we know, has produced nothing either.
So, at a bit of a stand regarding abduction, it would seem.
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1 Of the alternatives I can assess, pre-planned abduction is the most probable.
2 IF so, the split is then paedophilia v placement/replacement.
3 OG has done a lot of work on the paedophilia angle. It looks like OG has found nothing down this route. I will concede in advance that there are scenarios in this instance where no evidence would come to light. I'm simply seeing a lot of activity that has occurred, but action does not appear to be on the horizon.
4 That leaves placement/replacement. It is hardly high probability, merely the highest out of the alternatives. Before anyone asks, there are vast swathes of the world where the Madeleine case has hardly made a ripple.
I dismissed the pre planned some time ago and for a logical reason.
There was a younger female sibling who could have been instead. A younger child, fewer memories to deal with and more 'pliable' if given to a other family, which is one of the scenarios.
Likewise the lack of evidence of a break in.....
There is a lot more which I will deal with in due course, but wrk calls right now.
Have a good afternoon ShininginLuz.
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Yet another mobius loop on the forum.
That is precisely the reason why she won't be found alive.
What is a Mobius Loop? I can't be bothered to look it up. But I hope it's not abusive.
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What is a Mobius Loop? I can't be bothered to look it up. But I hope it's not abusive.
1 Believe me, you do not want to know. Well you might do just so's you can plan out how to work it into the conversation at your next dinner party 8(0(*
2 It's not.
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What is a Mobius Loop? I can't be bothered to look it up. But I hope it's not abusive.
https://www.math.hmc.edu/~gu/curves_and_surfaces/surfaces/moebius.html
(Could well be Stephen spent too much time as a child making paper chains)
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I dismissed the pre planned some time ago and for a logical reason.
There was a younger female sibling who could have been instead. A younger child, fewer memories to deal with and more 'pliable' if given to a other family, which is one of the scenarios.
Likewise the lack of evidence of a break in.....
There is a lot more which I will deal with in due course, but wrk calls right now.
Have a good afternoon ShininginLuz.
There was indeed a younger female sibling. The question is - how was such pre-planning conducted? There are but 2 options.
1 After the McCanns arrived in Luz, someone detected them/M, and in the space of under 6 days, constructed and executed a plan. Probably along with having to get in touch with someone elsewhere at very short notice to 'auction' M. Plus getting into 5A with no sign of a break-in. Plus a lot of other ideas that don't make sense.
So, I consigned option 1 to the rubbish bin a long time ago. If it happened that way, it was fluke after fluke after fluke.
2 Why would someone want a somewhat older child? Eleanor has alluded to this earlier in this topic. So what are the mechanics? First, a lot more advance notice than 6 days. Second, a reliable entry method. Third, a reasonable expectation the parents would dine out AND leave the children behind. Four, preferably a choice of targets. On this point, if Ella O'Brien had gone missing that night, would we be discussing Madeleine, or her siblings?
Or would this be the Ella O'Brien forum?
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https://www.math.hmc.edu/~gu/curves_and_surfaces/surfaces/moebius.html
(Could well be Stephen spent too much time as a child making paper chains)
In the olden days hoho they were used in mills and machine shops to change the direction of rotation of layshafts. See Arkwrights Mill in Cromford as an example or any machine tool shop up to mid 1950s.
They were also used as a cunning device on coal conveyors, and similar, to clean the carrying belts atomically (automatically to you) as there is only one working face (very cunning*).
See Ellie I told you you didn't want to know.
* so cunning in fact you could spot weld a tail to it and call it a fox.
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https://www.math.hmc.edu/~gu/curves_and_surfaces/surfaces/moebius.html
(Could well be Stephen spent too much time as a child making paper chains)
It sounds a bit abusive to me. Is Stephen accusing me of being twisted?
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1 Of the alternatives I can assess, pre-planned abduction is the most probable.
2 IF so, the split is then paedophilia v placement/replacement.
3 OG has done a lot of work on the paedophilia angle. It looks like OG has found nothing down this route. I will concede in advance that there are scenarios in this instance where no evidence would come to light. I'm simply seeing a lot of activity that has occurred, but action does not appear to be on the horizon.
4 That leaves placement/replacement. It is hardly high probability, merely the highest out of the alternatives. Before anyone asks, there are vast swathes of the world where the Madeleine case has hardly made a ripple.
On that basis what do you think the driving factors were?
1 Why do it in Luz ?
2 Was the plan to steal a blonde haired girl of three to four years of age ? or
3 Was the plan to steal the first child of the approximate spec. who stayed in Appt 5A ? (from a thief's point of view 5A has pluses and minuses mostly minuses).
4 Who was the "client" ?
5 How long were the "gang" going to hang around on the off-chance ?
It seems to me that analysis of those questions will eliminate preplanned as a goer.
If I can think of those basic questions I am sure the cops [MPS & PJ] can and will have investigated same early doors. No arrests so far so was it a non starter or are they still working up the idea?
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On that basis what do you think the driving factors were?
1 Why do it in Luz ?
2 Was the plan to steal a blonde haired girl of three to four years of age ? or
3 Was the plan to steal the first child of the approximate spec. who stayed in Appt 5A ? (from a thief's point of view 5A has pluses and minuses mostly minuses).
4 Who was the "client" ?
5 How long were the "gang" going to hang around on the off-chance ?
It seems to me that analysis of those questions will eliminate preplanned as a goer.
If I can think of those basic questions I am sure the cops [MPS & PJ] can and will have investigated same early doors. No arrests so far so was it a non starter or are they still working up the idea?
1 No particular need or driver to do it in Luz. Just happened that way.
2 Yes-ish. A child, approx. 3, white, female.
3 No. Not the first child. If it had not happened in May 2007, it might have happened in June, July, August, or 2008. Or later. Not with M but with another child.
4 No clue who the client was. If I knew that then either I would be dead by now or OG would have been clamping handcuffs on the perp.
5 Was there a gang hanging around? Not sure. On the off-chance? Probably not, assuming it was pre-planned. More like dotting the i's and crossing the t's.
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It sounds a bit abusive to me. Is Stephen accusing me of being twisted?
You need to look things up and recognise the context, which in this case means views being repeated again and again and again.......(never ending it seems)
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On that basis what do you think the driving factors were?
1 Why do it in Luz ?
2 Was the plan to steal a blonde haired girl of three to four years of age ? or
3 Was the plan to steal the first child of the approximate spec. who stayed in Appt 5A ? (from a thief's point of view 5A has pluses and minuses mostly minuses).
4 Who was the "client" ?
5 How long were the "gang" going to hang around on the off-chance ?
It seems to me that analysis of those questions will eliminate preplanned as a goer.
If I can think of those basic questions I am sure the cops [MPS & PJ] can and will have investigated same early doors. No arrests so far so was it a non starter or are they still working up the idea?
- Why Luz? holiday resort specialising in family holidays
- In a resort popular with Brits and North Europeans anyone thinking of stealing a four year old, blonde, blue eyed child would have been spoilt for choice
- Any 'plan' might have been fine tuned once a suitable child was identified; why else would people have been seen apparently reconnoitring that particular apartment
- See Shining's reply
- The 'gang' didn't have to 'hang around' it would have taken one spotter or one staff member. The fact that it would have been possible to remain unnoticed whatever one was getting up to under cover of darkness is testified to by the invasion of Mrs Murat's garden
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You need to look things up and recognise the context, which in this case means views being repeated again and again and again.......(never ending it seems)
Now this post has got to earn the Irony of the Year Award. But never mind. I forgive you.
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Someone living around Luz who ordered a child, and was prepared to wait?
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Now this post has got to earn the Irony of the Year Award. But never mind. I forgive you.
I am fully aware of the irony of what I said.
However, I notice when certain mccann supporters repeat their mantra ad infinitum, are they criticized for doing what they claim I do ?
Or is repetition OK when it is a mccann supporter ? &%+((£
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- Why Luz? holiday resort specialising in family holidays
Reply:There are several similar resorts so why Luz?
- In a resort popular with Brits and North Europeans anyone thinking of stealing a four year old, blonde, blue eyed child would have been spoilt for choice
Reply:See 1, but also me being of Scandawegian origin like, fair haired blue eyed ain't as common as you might like to think and will certainly stand out in a land where the preponderance is latin (except in the areas where my ancestors tonked about) so why go for a target that will stand out? If it was a planned job for placement then there was enough money sloshing about to do the job in Scandawegia where the target shows up less.
- Any 'plan' might have been fine tuned once a suitable child was identified; why else would people have been seen apparently reconnoitring that particular apartment
Reply: You are making a gross assumption that anyone seen in the vicinity was "apparently reconnoitering" and a further gross assumption that were said persons reconnoitering they were doing it for the purposes of kidnapping a child
Reply:I did not mean who literally I meant who or what was the client in generic terms
- The 'gang' didn't have to 'hang around' it would have taken one spotter or one staff member. The fact that it would have been possible to remain unnoticed whatever one was getting up to under cover of darkness is testified to by the invasion of Mrs Murat's garden
Reply: If they needed a swift in-out-away they could not be too far away. Like in the same village I would suggest rather than a few clicks away.That's a plan waiting to go wrong
Try to think of it as an exercise on a blank board not with hind sight and a preconceived idea of a an end result.
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Try to think of it as an exercise on a blank board not with hind sight and a preconceived idea of a an end result.
The problem with so much of the dross which has done the rounds about this case is that almost all of it relies on the perfect science of very selective hindsight.
In the absence of any evidence to support Madeleine's demise it is logical to give her the benefit of the doubt with the supposition that she may have survived the events of 3 May.
If she did there is no reason to suppose that she may not be alive and well today and the best and perhaps only way that can be revealed is by the PJ and SY parallel investigations bearing fruit.
The passage of time must be throwing up fresh considerations for the family given the reaction of many stolen children who have forgotten or never knew their real family.
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The problem with so much of the dross which has done the rounds about this case is that almost all of it relies on the perfect science of very selective hindsight.
In the absence of any evidence to support Madeleine's demise it is logical to give her the benefit of the doubt with the supposition that she may have survived the events of 3 May.
If she did there is no reason to suppose that she may not be alive and well today and the best and perhaps only way that can be revealed is by the PJ and SY parallel investigations bearing fruit.
The passage of time must be throwing up fresh considerations for the family given the reaction of many stolen children who have forgotten or never knew their real family.
There is cadaver dog alerts, ergo intelligence supportng possible demise although it is possible all alerts around the mccanns residences and belongings and no one elses were dud and MM is alive and "well" or alive and "unwell"
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Someone living around Luz who ordered a child, and was prepared to wait?
Who did they think they were dealing with, Ocado ?
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Who did they think they were dealing with, Ocado ?
Shouldnt laugh.....but
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Try to think of it as an exercise on a blank board not with hind sight and a preconceived idea of a an end result.
Actually, that's how I tackled each and every alternative to evaluate its likely probability.
1. Why Luz? I don't believe it is Luz per se that is important. The characteristic of the OC was it had a very high percentage of families with children aged under 4. It also has a non-secure security system. Unlike many or most resorts it uses mechanical keys, not computer key cards that can be tracked. As it so happens, it was early season for Europe, ruling out many destinations (as David Payne testified).
2. From memory, M has eyes of different colours. I see no reason to build in an eye colour requirement, on the basis that this would have required an awkward bit of checking. Therefore the recipe is fair skinned, possibly blonde, female, passes for a 3 year old.
3. There is no need to build 5A into a plan, if it is being done as a blank board exercise. If Ella O'Brien had disappeared, we would be talking about a girl of similar description (hair colour aside) disappearing from 5B. 5B had the same unsecure security system, as did all the apartments on the ground floor of blocks 4, 5 and 6.
4. The generic client was someone who could pass off a 3 year, white skinned girl as his/her own, if the target spec is correct. This rules out large swathes of the world re skin colour, but leaves large swathes as potential destinations. So much so that I don't see how OG could systematically eliminate such countries. It requires a sighting, followed by investigation of the same. That is not systematic elimination by country.
5. The route I've got does not require the 'gang' to hang around hoping. The team assembles once informed a suitable target is in situ. In this scenario, only sightings occurring after the T9 were in place relate directly to Madeleine. Other children may have been monitored earlier, but such sightings, if there are any, relate to Madeleine's disappearance only indirectly (possibly same team).
If the requirement WAS for a fair skinned, 3 year old girl, Madeleine could still be alive and well.
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Actually, that's how I tackled each and every alternative to evaluate its likely probability.
1. Why Luz? I don't believe it is Luz per se that is important. The characteristic of the OC was it had a very high percentage of families with children aged under 4. It also has a non-secure security system. Unlike many or most resorts it uses mechanical keys, not computer key cards that can be tracked. As it so happens, it was early season for Europe, ruling out many destinations (as David Payne testified).
2. From memory, M has eyes of different colours. I see no reason to build in an eye colour requirement, on the basis that this would have required an awkward bit of checking. Therefore the recipe is fair skinned, possibly blonde, female, passes for a 3 year old.
3. There is no need to build 5A into a plan, if it is being done as a blank board exercise. If Ella O'Brien had disappeared, we would be talking about a girl of similar description (hair colour aside) disappearing from 5B. 5B had the same unsecure security system, as did all the apartments on the ground floor of blocks 4, 5 and 6.
4. The generic client was someone who could pass off a 3 year, white skinned girl as his/her own, if the target spec is correct. This rules out large swathes of the world re skin colour, but leaves large swathes as potential destinations. So much so that I don't see how OG could systematically eliminate such countries. It requires a sighting, followed by investigation of the same. That is not systematic elimination by country.
5. The route I've got does not require the 'gang' to hang around hoping. The team assembles once informed a suitable target is in situ. In this scenario, only sightings occurring after the T9 were in place relate directly to Madeleine. Other children may have been monitored earlier, but such sightings, if there are any, relate to Madeleine's disappearance only indirectly (possibly same team).
If the requirement WAS for a fair skinned, 3 year old girl, Madeleine could still be alive and well.
If even only one of the eye witness statements about the apartment apparently being watched during the McCann family occupancy is correct there is reason to hope that Madeleine was chosen to order and could therefore very well still be alive and well.
I think if she had wandered and met with ill, she would have been found. Similarly if she had been taken in a panic or by an opportunist I think she would have been discarded soon after and would have been found.
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Actually, that's how I tackled each and every alternative to evaluate its likely probability.
1. Why Luz? I don't believe it is Luz per se that is important. The characteristic of the OC was it had a very high percentage of families with children aged under 4. It also has a non-secure security system. Unlike many or most resorts it uses mechanical keys, not computer key cards that can be tracked. As it so happens, it was early season for Europe, ruling out many destinations (as David Payne testified).
2. From memory, M has eyes of different colours. I see no reason to build in an eye colour requirement, on the basis that this would have required an awkward bit of checking. Therefore the recipe is fair skinned, possibly blonde, female, passes for a 3 year old.
3. There is no need to build 5A into a plan, if it is being done as a blank board exercise. If Ella O'Brien had disappeared, we would be talking about a girl of similar description (hair colour aside) disappearing from 5B. 5B had the same unsecure security system, as did all the apartments on the ground floor of blocks 4, 5 and 6.
4. The generic client was someone who could pass off a 3 year, white skinned girl as his/her own, if the target spec is correct. This rules out large swathes of the world re skin colour, but leaves large swathes as potential destinations. So much so that I don't see how OG could systematically eliminate such countries. It requires a sighting, followed by investigation of the same. That is not systematic elimination by country.
5. The route I've got does not require the 'gang' to hang around hoping. The team assembles once informed a suitable target is in situ. In this scenario, only sightings occurring after the T9 were in place relate directly to Madeleine. Other children may have been monitored earlier, but such sightings, if there are any, relate to Madeleine's disappearance only indirectly (possibly same team).
If the requirement WAS for a fair skinned, 3 year old girl, Madeleine could still be alive and well.
I become more and more impressed by what you have to say, probably because it is logical, and also because it largely mirrors how I feel. Although I am probably a bit more emotional about it all. And I mind very much about the abuse heaped on The Mccanns, having done more or less the same thing myself.
But I can see no reason to assume that Madeleine is dead or seriously harmed, so I will go on hoping.
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Actually, that's how I tackled each and every alternative to evaluate its likely probability.
1. Why Luz? I don't believe it is Luz per se that is important. The characteristic of the OC was it had a very high percentage of families with children aged under 4. It also has a non-secure security system. Unlike many or most resorts it uses mechanical keys, not computer key cards that can be tracked. As it so happens, it was early season for Europe, ruling out many destinations (as David Payne testified).
2. From memory, M has eyes of different colours. I see no reason to build in an eye colour requirement, on the basis that this would have required an awkward bit of checking. Therefore the recipe is fair skinned, possibly blonde, female, passes for a 3 year old.
3. There is no need to build 5A into a plan, if it is being done as a blank board exercise. If Ella O'Brien had disappeared, we would be talking about a girl of similar description (hair colour aside) disappearing from 5B. 5B had the same unsecure security system, as did all the apartments on the ground floor of blocks 4, 5 and 6.
4. The generic client was someone who could pass off a 3 year, white skinned girl as his/her own, if the target spec is correct. This rules out large swathes of the world re skin colour, but leaves large swathes as potential destinations. So much so that I don't see how OG could systematically eliminate such countries. It requires a sighting, followed by investigation of the same. That is not systematic elimination by country.
5. The route I've got does not require the 'gang' to hang around hoping. The team assembles once informed a suitable target is in situ. In this scenario, only sightings occurring after the T9 were in place relate directly to Madeleine. Other children may have been monitored earlier, but such sightings, if there are any, relate to Madeleine's disappearance only indirectly (possibly same team).
If the requirement WAS for a fair skinned, 3 year old girl, Madeleine could still be alive and well.
Let's start with Point 4. Are they removing Madeleine's tongue? How could they pass her off as their own?
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Let's start with Point 4. Are they removing Madeleine's tongue? How could they pass her off as their own?
We are told by her family that Madeleine was an outgoing, articulate little girl. She certainly doesn't sound like a child it would be easy to assimilate into another family.
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Let's start with Point 4. Are they removing Madeleine's tongue? How could they pass her off as their own?
When Madeleine vanished she was three ... within a very short space of time it is possible she could have been communicating in a different language. Today, she may not speak or understand English.
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When Madeleine vanished she was three ... within a very short space of time it is possible she could have been communicating in a different language. Today, she may not speak or understand English.
She was a week off turning 4. She knew who she was, her beloved Everton football team and her family and friends. How are they going to pass her off as their own?
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Certainly she would need to be in some isolated area, away from other people for quite a long time while she was indoctrinated. This is one reason why her younger sibling would have been a much better choice - no longer a baby, but still young enough to easily adapt to a new life
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Let's start with Point 4. Are they removing Madeleine's tongue? How could they pass her off as their own?
My grandson spent 1 year in preschool here. The staff only speak to the children in Portuguese. Well within that 12 months he became fluent in Portuguese. He now speaks English to the English speakers he knows, and Portuguese to those he knows to be fluent in Portuguese.
Those who read my blog will be aware of something I find to be quite curious. My granddaughter is back in England now and on Tuesday just passed, she started an intensive driving instruction course, spending 3hrs per day driving. She's loving it. Knowing a fair bit about the brain, I would have predicted this was an awful way to learn anything, but it seems the plasticity of her brain at her age has proved me wrong.
Bear in mind that although we know Madeleine was nearly 4, her age in the relevant record showed she would be 3 when left Portugal. From various bits and pieces of evidence, I believe Madeleine was small for her age. (K & G both ended up with a height of 90cm, which is not small, but extremely small, though I think there is an innocent explanation for this.) To someone assessing the situation, she looks much nearer the 3 end of the spectrum than the 4 end.
That means her ability to pick up a new language would be excellent. And all you have to do with English is never speak it to her, and that ability should fade quite rapidly.
Getting a near 4 year old child would be a somewhat tougher proposition, but I doubt someone paying for and risking this exercise would dump the child to start again.
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My grandson spent 1 year in preschool here. The staff only speak to the children in Portuguese. Well within that 12 months he became fluent in Portuguese. He now speaks English to the English speakers he knows, and Portuguese to those he knows to be fluent in Portuguese.
Those who read my blog will be aware of something I find to be quite curious. My granddaughter is back in England now and on Tuesday just passed, she started an intensive driving instruction course, spending 3hrs per day driving. She's loving it. Knowing a fair bit about the brain, I would have predicted this was an awful way to learn anything, but it seems the plasticity of her brain at her age has proved me wrong.
Bear in mind that although we know Madeleine was nearly 4, her age in the relevant record showed she would be 3 when left Portugal. From various bits and pieces of evidence, I believe Madeleine was small for her age. (K & G both ended up with a height of 90cm, which is not small, but extremely small, though I think there is an innocent explanation for this.) To someone assessing the situation, she looks much nearer the 3 end of the spectrum than the 4 end.
That means her ability to pick up a new language would be excellent. And all you have to do with English is never speak it to her, and that ability should fade quite rapidly.
Getting a near 4 year old child would be a somewhat tougher proposition, but I doubt someone paying for and risking this exercise would dump the child to start again.
This is something which has always puzzled me, why take the older child when a younger one was available ? Assuming she was taken I can only see one reason for doing so.
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I will repeat it again, how are they going to get pass her off as their own in 2007? I'm not talking about years later.
p.s. Madeleine is taller than 90cms. You shouldn't believe what they tell you. The alerted red plane top was for 98cm height.
(http://www.truthformadeleine.com/pics/storybookcottage.jpg)
3. A childrens T-Shirt, red, with aeroplane motifs, NEXT, for the age 2-3, length 98 cms.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME%20VIIIa_Processo_2113-_small1.jpg)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
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This is something which has always puzzled me, why take the older child when a younger one was available ? Assuming she was taken I can only see one reason for doing so.
The twins were on record as 2, but aged 2 and a quarter, IIRC. My question would therefore be to look at this the other way round.
Why take a child of 2 and a quarter, or seemingly early 3, when there were plenty of babies around? Why not take someone with much fewer memories, was unable to or could barely speak, who was still at the imprint on carers stage, and who would forget her name easily?
If it is a pre-planned abduction, and bearing in mind I am describing a scenario in which Madeleine could be both alive and well, then it seems to suggest that a 3 year old was ordered. Or that photos of many children were taken going to high tea and leaving high tea, and that a selection was made at that time.
8 children with the Tapas 9, all under 4, 7 of them girls. Many other female children under 4. There was a lot to pick from. Perhaps Madeleine just drew the short straw.
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I still find it difficult to understand when it was done if the timeline has been reported correctly. Crimewatch 2013 moved the time on to after Matthew Oldfield's visit, but ignored the movements of Tanner and O'Brien during that period. Either of them could have emerged from their apartment at any moment. Very risky imo.
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I still find it difficult to understand when it was done if the timeline has been reported correctly. Crimewatch 2013 moved the time on to after Matthew Oldfield's visit, but ignored the movements of Tanner and O'Brien during that period. Either of them could have emerged from their apartment at any moment. Very risky imo.
Either the McCanns did it - risky - or the McCanns did not do it - risky.
Try finding an instance where someone got up in the middle of mains because a timed check was necessary. Jane T on 3 May does not count. She ate her main hurriedly, then went off to replace her partner.
If the checks were timed rigorously, it permits one pattern of window of opportunity. Risky because the T6 were buzzing around like flies.
If the checks hinge around - placing orders - eating starters - eating mains - it becomes much less risky. Wait until mains are being served, and you are in a low risk window of opportunity. And in advance, yes Jane and partner raise the risk, but in this scenario you are conducting a serious criminal act, therefore risky.
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In my opinion ... a heinous crime has been committed.
That boils down to ... crime = victim = perpetrator = investigation.
Almost nine years ago a crime was committed in Luz and the investigation into it was botched.
Now that botched investigation into the crime is reactivated ... live lines of inquiry are being worked. Hopefully it will eventually be revealed what happened to the victim of the crime which took place all those years ago.
For me the following positives may occur
- perpetrators may be apprehended and brought to justice
- what happened to Madeleine McCann revealed
The biggest bonus of all would most certainly be the safe recovery of a living child, which is what I hope for. Others can hope for whatever suits them ... that is very much a decision for them.
At the least, should it be proved that Madeleine has been murdered; her remains recovered and returned to her family to enable them to have closure.
Apart from Madeleine's parents' inalienable right to the presumption of innocence ~ apart from the thorough 'going over' given by the Amaral and Rebelo investigations both of which looked into their every move ~ I do not have the arrogance which demands that strangers are somehow answerable to me.
Nor do I have a mindset which would allow me to join a gang with a purpose of heaping from afar, misery on people who have suffered a surfeit of it when their daughter was taken from them.
My conscience dictates that I do not attack the innocent and injured and I tend to leave investigations to those best qualified to conduct them.
It is also worth bearing in mind that without her parents' enduring efforts Madeleine's case would not be under way at the moment. That constitutes "justice" and it was action that achieved it to this stage ... not bleating about it.
Your belief Brietta is not backed up by evidence.
As I have said before, this crime, if any occurred, will in all probability remain unsolved.
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There was only one check performed that night when it was safe to remove a child without being seen because the other 8 were sat at the table.
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I will repeat it again, how are they going to get pass her off as their own in 2007? I'm not talking about years later.
p.s. Madeleine is taller than 90cms. You shouldn't believe what they tell you. The alerted red plane top was for 98cm height.
(http://www.truthformadeleine.com/pics/storybookcottage.jpg)
3. A childrens T-Shirt, red, with aeroplane motifs, NEXT, for the age 2-3, length 98 cms.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME%20VIIIa_Processo_2113-_small1.jpg)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
Why do they have to pass her off as their own in 2007?
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Unless she was kept in isolation, eg hidden in an orphanage, or on a remote farm, or some such,she would be likely to come into contact with people who might be aware of her disappearance.
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My grandson spent 1 year in preschool here. The staff only speak to the children in Portuguese. Well within that 12 months he became fluent in Portuguese. He now speaks English to the English speakers he knows, and Portuguese to those he knows to be fluent in Portuguese.
Those who read my blog will be aware of something I find to be quite curious. My granddaughter is back in England now and on Tuesday just passed, she started an intensive driving instruction course, spending 3hrs per day driving. She's loving it. Knowing a fair bit about the brain, I would have predicted this was an awful way to learn anything, but it seems the plasticity of her brain at her age has proved me wrong.
Bear in mind that although we know Madeleine was nearly 4, her age in the relevant record showed she would be 3 when left Portugal. From various bits and pieces of evidence, I believe Madeleine was small for her age. (K & G both ended up with a height of 90cm, which is not small, but extremely small, though I think there is an innocent explanation for this.) To someone assessing the situation, she looks much nearer the 3 end of the spectrum than the 4 end.
That means her ability to pick up a new language would be excellent. And all you have to do with English is never speak it to her, and that ability should fade quite rapidly.
Getting a near 4 year old child would be a somewhat tougher proposition, but I doubt someone paying for and risking this exercise would dump the child to start again.
Her size fits into accepted and commonly quoted ranges ie 880mm to 1016 mm. If she is within the range that's good enough. Where she is in the range is interesting maybe but that's about all, unless one is buying clothes for her.
I think if the proposition is that Madeleine was nicked to order then compiling an activity list and "staffing" it as a planned enterprise would be an eye opener to some.
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Unless she was kept in isolation, eg hidden in an orphanage, or on a remote farm, or some such,she would be likely to come into contact with people who might be aware of her disappearance.
Or she could be hidden in full sight particularly if she fitted existing legal documentation.
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Or she could be hidden in full sight particularly if she fitted existing legal documentation.
Bearing in mind the huge reward on offer.
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Bearing in mind the huge reward on offer.
Why would whoever has her be interested in reward huge or minuscule? He or she has what they want.
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Why would whoever has her be interested in reward huge or minuscule? He or she has what they want.
And they would likely be arrested and get no reward. Or the child.
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Or she could be hidden in full sight particularly if she fitted existing legal documentation.
Indeed, though in that sort of case she would be likely to announce in public that her name was Madeleine McCann, which would rather negate any paperwork.
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On a boat somewhere?
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On a boat somewhere?
Could be, it would certainly be isolated.