UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 08:37:24 PM
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Kate Mccann in her book says she mentioned this worry to the police that night and several other times over the weeks
But they never got her kids tested she alledges
Is there anything to support these statements?
I have read that she refused it when the pj wanted to do it but i have no proof of this
And if she was so worried why didnt she get them tested...until four months later? And which according to her book was a barber of seville job???? Which can be nothing but a total exageration
"The process seemed to take ages and we all lost loads of hair. I couldn't believe they had to take so much. The scientist cut chunks of it from Sean and Amelie's heads while they were sleeping. I cried as I heard the scissors in their baby-blond hair. I felt angry that the children had to go through this further insult. As for me, I looked as if I had alopecia."
Why did she and her husband not take their kids to a and e?? To get checked out may 3 or 4????
Oh and
The McCanns curious behaviour as witnessed by Inspector Ricardo Paiva
Processos Vol X
Pages 2533 - 2534
Date: 2007/09/03
For : Goncalo Amaral
From Ricardo Paiva, Inspector
Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
During the course of the ongoing investigation, various personal contacts were made by the undersigned with Kate and Gerald McCann, within my task of serving as communication element between the police and the McCann couple.
Within this context, the undersigned was present during various "strange" behaviours by the couple, who gradually began to react in a very negative manner to the increased investigative activity carried out by this police force, especially during the use of the English sniffer dogs for detecting cadaver odour, when more evidence arose in the investigation for the hypothesis of the death of Madeleine McCann.
Several times, the McCann couple said that the attention of the police should be maintained focussing on the abduction hypothesis, which, in the couple's opinion, was the only scenario that occurred and that the police should not forget to continue to investigate the suspect Robert Murat.
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5Ş of the Ocean Club, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
Edited
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Kate Mccann in her book says she mentioned this worry to the police that night and several other times over the weeks
But they never got her kids tested she alledges
Is there anything to support these statements?
And if she was so worried why didnt she get them tested...until four months later? And which according to her book was a barber of seville job????
"The process seemed to take ages and we all lost loads of hair. I couldn't believe they had to take so much. The scientist cut chunks of it from Sean and Amelie's heads while they were sleeping. I cried as I heard the scissors in their baby-blond hair. I felt angry that the children had to go through this further insult. As for me, I looked as if I had alopecia."
Why did she and her husband not take their kids to a and e?? To get checked out may 3 or 4????
Indeed.
Even allowing for the shock of the 'disappearance ' of Madeleine, and claiming to be an anesthetist, which having checked records, is not true, KM or her husband should have had the children checked out, as should have the PJ.
THE LACK OF THIS CHECK DEFIES ALL REASONED LOGIC AND IF THEY BELIEVED THE CHILDREN HAD BEEN DRUGGED TO MASK AN 'ABDUCTION', IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LOGICAL STEP TO DEMAND IT.
SO WAS THERE AN ULTERIOR MOTIVE AS TO WHY THEY DID NOT ?
Note by Editor> A person can be qualified as an anaesthetist but not be currently listed on the BMA register.
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Why didn't Amaral ask for it to be done?
Even after four months nail scrapings [correct me if I'm wrong] would have shown evidence of drugs.
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Why didn't Amaral ask for it to be done?
Even after four months nail scrapings [correct me if I'm wrong] would have shown evidence of drugs.
No use passing the buck
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No use passing the buck
I am not.
Amaral was the one bringing up the calpol. If he thought Madeleine had been drugged why didn't he test the twins?
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I am not.
Amaral was the one bringing up the calpol. If he thought Madeleine had been drugged why didn't he test the twins?
No dear, kate mccann brought up the drugging from early on, she did NOTHING about it, nothing to do with any part of amarals theory months later
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No dear, kate mccann brought up the drugging from early on, she did NOTHING about it, nothing to do with any part of amarals theory months later
If Amaral knew Kate McCann had brought it up why didn't he test the twins?
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If Amaral knew Kate McCann had brought it up why didn't he test the twins?
before you get your next hammer for amaral, pls provide a cite where kate asked for her kids to be tested and the police said no
Catchyou tomorrow now
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before you get your next hammer for amaral, pls provide a cite where kate asked for her kids to be tested and the police said no
Catchyou tomorrow now
Well they didn't do anything did they.
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Well they didn't do anything did they.
Exactly the mccanns did nothing about it until FOUR MONTHS later, that should tell u something
and i wonder what it does tell u
Bye now lace
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Exactly the mccanns did nothing about it until FOUR MONTHS later, that should tell u something
and i wonder what it does tell u
Bye now lace
It could be they couldn't do anything. It might look as though they were acting suspiciously getting tests for their children. Some might say 'are they worried the PJ might find something and they want to get a story together' The police on the other hand, when hearing that Kate McCann was worried incase the twins had been drugged should have tested them.
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Even after four months nail scrapings [correct me if I'm wrong] would have shown evidence of drugs.
It depends on the drug. But there are some practically undetectable after 24 hours.
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The police on the other hand, when hearing that Kate McCann was worried incase the twins had been drugged should have tested them.
Two of the UK liaison police officers, on the 5th of May, thought it was pertinent to report the parents had asked many times (to the PJ through the LPO) whether the scientific police had discovered any trace of sedation, but they didn't suggest the twins, the best proof of all, should be tested.
BTW administrating 3 kids a sedation without their cooperation, silently and in a few minutes is totally impossible. Curiously the McCanns never developed on that delicate issue.
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I am not.
Amaral was the one bringing up the calpol. If he thought Madeleine had been drugged why didn't he test the twins?
Exactly
The passing of the buck to Kate and Gerry here, is an echo of the passing of the buck about the crime scene not being secured.
It was the Polices job, not Kate and Gerrys
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Two of the UK liaison police officers, on the 5th of May, thought it was pertinent to report the parents had asked many times (to the PJ through the LPO) whether the scientific police had discovered any trace of sedation, but they didn't suggest the twins, the best proof of all, should be tested.
BTW administrating 3 kids a sedation without their cooperation, silently and in a few minutes is totally impossible. Curiously the McCanns never developed on that delicate issue.
So the Mccanns by May 5th had asked many times about whether the scientific Police had discoverd any sedation, yet none was done.
Anne the only way that I can think of that the police could do those tests was on the twins. No other way that I can see, when Madeleine was gone. So even if the word, "twins" wasn't actually used, it was obvious who was meant. I think I am right there, am I?
I keep wondering if all three were given a sleeping draft, or something to sedate them in their "hot Chocolate" or a sweetie etc at tea time. Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carried home (according to Gerry IIRC.) This was at only 5.35pm ish. Might she have been given a double dose?
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The scientific police examined Madeleine's bedding and found no trace of sedation (i.e saliva and/or regurgitation), does someone know whether they examined the twins' beddings that were taken away with them ? And does someone know whether they examined the parents' beddings ?
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Some here seem not to understand that the PJ was searching for a little girl and that any minute was crucial. How would Inspector Amaral think of testing the kids in this context, a fortiori as a quick call to a doctor would have told him that detection after 48 was impossible ?
The McCanns did their show off with the twins' test, killing two rabbits with the same stone : 1° once more they were the victims of the PJ monsters and 2° they were clean of any drug.
If you doubt it, ask a doctor !
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The scientific police examined Madeleine's bedding and found no trace of sedation (i.e saliva and/or regurgitation), does someone know whether they examined the twins' beddings that were taken away with them ? And does someone know whether they examined the parents' beddings ?
Now I find that strange Anne, because there has been much talk about the police not securing the crime scene and allowing the bedlinen to be stripped off and laundered without any forensic examination
Who has been saying that the Police scientifically examined the bed linene?
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Some here seem not to understand that the PJ was searching for a little girl and that any minute was crucial. How would Inspector Amaral think of testing the kids in this context, a fortiori as a quick call to a doctor would have told him that detection after 48 was impossible ?
The McCanns did their show off with the twins' test, killing two rabbits with the same stone : 1° once more they were the victims of the PJ monsters and 2° they were clean of any drug.
If you doubt it, ask a doctor !
That is a very bitter and uncalled for statement Anne. I am surprised at you.
The PJ were not searching for a little girl after the very first hours, because Amaral had already decided that she was dead with her parents something to do with it.
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The bottom line remains here, the PJ and the Mccanns did nothing to check the children out for the presence of drugs.
....... comment removed as speculative .... why didn't the Mccanns do anything at all ?
Logical deduction, something to hide.
As to the PJ, it could have provided useful evidence.
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And of course they would know exactly where to find such a place - and with no Portuguese they would also know how to order up such a test - with no referral .....
(I wish sceptics would use some commonsense and not just their blind prejudice!)
And I'd like some proof, please, seeing you have asserted it, that Kate was not a qualified anaethetist.
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And of course they would know exactly where to find such a place - and with no Portuguese they would also know how to order up such a test - with no referral .....
(I wish sceptics would use some commonsense and not just their blind prejudice!)
And I'd like some proof, please, seeing you have asserted it, that Kate was not a qualified anaethetist.
Ask the staff at the complex, they would know where hospitals were
Secondly, research on the GMC website. Listed there as GP, not on the specialist register.
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Ask the staff at the complex, they would know where hospitals were
Secondly, research on the GMC website. Listed there as GP, not on the specialist register.
Stephen have you ANY idea of the state the McCann's were in on the night of the 3rd of May?
They had just found their daughter missing, abduction going through their minds, thoughts of how Madeleine was being treated or even if she was being murdered!!
In her distressed state Kate told the Portuguese police of her concerns about the twins, they should have done the necessary tests.
How can you expect the parents in their absolute despair to be finding out where to find the number of an hospital to arrange tests?
By the time they realised nothing was going to be done, the twins had probably woken up!!!
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Stephen have you ANY idea of the state the McCann's were in on the night of the 3rd of May?
They had just found their daughter missing, abduction going through their minds, thoughts of how Madeleine was being treated or even if she was being murdered!!
In her distressed state Kate told the Portuguese police of her concerns about the twins, they should have done the necessary tests.
How can you expect the parents in their absolute despair to be finding out where to find the number of an hospital to arrange tests?
By the time they realised nothing was going to be done, the twins had probably woken up!!!
I'm not talking about on that night.
Whatever happened to Madeleine, whichever theory you believe in, there would be shock. No I'm talking about on subsequent days. Why didn't they do anything then ?
They were certainly indulging in recreational activities such as Tennis and Jogging.
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Ask the staff at the complex, they would know where hospitals were
Secondly, research on the GMC website. Listed there as GP, not on the specialist register.
You have not answered all the points in my post. How, with no Portuguese and no referral from any Portuguese authority, would two English holiday-makers be able to order such a test?
Is it not possible that Kate is not listed on the specialist register because her initial qualification has lapsed through non-use? I seem to recall that when she had children she opted to get out of hospital practice and into general practice so that she could spend more time with her children. Because she is no longer listed as an anaethetist doesn't mean that she didn't originally qualify as such. As we know, she is no longer a practicising GP, so I assume that, too, may lapse after a certain period, and she'll be removed from the BMA altogether. Are you then going to claim that she's never been a doctor?
Again, use your commonsense (if you have any) rather than blind prejudice.
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You have not answered all the points in my post. How, with no Portuguese and no referral from any Portuguese authority, would two English holiday-makers be able to order such a test?
Is it not possible that Kate is not listed on the specialist register because her initial qualification has lapsed through non-use? I seem to recall that when she had children she opted to get out of hospital practice and into general practice so that she could spend more time with her children. Because she is no longer listed as an anaethetist doesn't mean that she didn't originally qualify as such. As we know, she is no longer a practicising GP, so I assume that, too, may lapse after a certain period, and she'll be removed from the BMA altogether. Are you then going to claim that she's never been a doctor?
Again, use your commonsense (if you have any) rather than blind prejudice.
Not blind prejudice. She didn't complete the course. Not an anesthetist.
You know the old saying, done with irony here, 'ask a Doctor'.
All they would have to do is go to a hospital, explain that they believed their children had been drugged and ask for a test to be carried out. Hardly difficult. Portugal is not as some seem to imply, in the Middle Ages.
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Not blind prejudice. She didn't complete the course. Not an anesthetist.
And your source for this claim is ....??
I have not implied that a Portuguese hospital would not be able to carry out such a drugs test. I have indicated that I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, to persuade a hospital to carry out such a test without proper referral. It was up to the POLICE to initiate this after the parents had voiced their concerns.
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Not blind prejudice. She didn't complete the course. Not an anesthetist.
And your source for this claim is ....??
I have not implied that a Portuguese hospital would not be able to carry out such a drugs test. I have indicated that I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, to persuade a hospital to carry out such a test without proper referral. It was up to the POLICE to initiate this after the parents had voiced their concerns.
Exactly Chinagirl.
Can you imagine the McCann's trying to arrange such tests?
McCann's - We believe the twins have been drugged by an abductor, an abductor took my eldest child. Could you do tests to rule out drugs?
The first thing the would do is ring the police.
The tests should have been arranged by the Portuguese police.
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Not blind prejudice. She didn't complete the course. Not an anesthetist.
And your source for this claim is ....??
I have not implied that a Portuguese hospital would not be able to carry out such a drugs test. I have indicated that I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, to persuade a hospital to carry out such a test without proper referral. It was up to the POLICE to initiate this after the parents had voiced their concerns.
I agree Carana, whether the twins had been drugged or not was part of the case - and as the PJ were in charge of the case - they should have arranged for a test. It's apparent from the FLO's statement that Kate and Gerry listed this question of possible drugging amongst the questions they asked the FLO's to relay to the PJ on their behalf.
We can only presume that the PJ decided not to act on it - and for the McCanns to make private arrangements themselves would possibly have meant breaking the secrecy laws, as they would have to talk about the case in order to explain why they wanted the test.
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Benice - I think you meant to say "I agree Chinagirl" (not Carana!)
Your point about the McCanns having to break the secrecy laws is a good one which I hadn't thought of.
Whatever the case, they could not simply have waltzed into a hospital to ask for drugs tests to be carried out on the twins without referral from the police.
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Benice - I think you meant to say "I agree Chinagirl" (not Carana!)
Your point about the McCanns having to break the secrecy laws is a good one which I hadn't thought of.
Whatever the case, they could not simply have waltzed into a hospital to ask for drugs tests to be carried out on the twins without referral from the police.
My apols Chinagirl - yes that was a mistake - sorry again.
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Just evasion of what should have happened.
Both the PJ and the parents should have INSISTED on tests.
There is no excuse under the sun for not doing that and evading the issue won't change that.
As for km being a qualified anesthetist , prove it.
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Just evasion of what should have happened.
Both the PJ and the parents should have INSISTED on tests.
There is no excuse under the sun for not doing that and evading the issue won't change that.
The parents were in no position for insisting anything, but they kept asking.
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The parents were in no position for insisting anything, but they kept asking.
How do you know they kept asking ?
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Why is it a lie that Kate was a qualified anaethetist?
How were the McCann parents expected to arrange for the twins to be tested for drugs - in a foreign country? They raised their concerns with the police who were the appropriate authority to get that test undertaken, but they failed to do so.
To be a GP you have to basically train in various specialities (at least it's like this in Portugal). I think I read Mrs McCann did train in anaesthetic and in gynaecology. To be a specialist the training lasts for years and you never lose the qualification, whether you practice or not, even if being a (good) specialist means constant updating.
I agree that the McCanns didn't have to test their children themselves because the PJ neglected it. But they didn't suggest it, though they were the first witnesses of the twins' state and knew, as parents and doctors, Madeleine couldn't have been taken without being drugged.
They only asked, with enough insistence to be noted by two liaison police officers, if evidence of sedation had been found by the scientific police.
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To be a GP you have to basically train in various specialities (at least it's like this in Portugal). I think I read Mrs McCann did train in anaesthetic and in gynaecology. To be a specialist the training lasts for years and you never lose the qualification, whether you practice or not, even if being a (good) specialist means constant updating.
I agree that the McCanns didn't have to test their children themselves because the PJ neglected it. But they didn't suggest it, though they were the first witnesses of the twins' state and knew, as parents and doctors, Madeleine couldn't have been taken without being drugged.
They only asked, with enough insistence to be noted by two liaison police officers, if evidence of sedation had been found by the scientific police.
Ever thought of the language problems and their state of mind at that early time?
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Ever thought of the language problems and their state of mind at that early time?
Staff at the complex.
Simples.
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Exactly Chinagirl.
Can you imagine the McCann's trying to arrange such tests?
McCann's - We believe the twins have been drugged by an abductor, an abductor took my eldest child. Could you do tests to rule out drugs?
The first thing the would do is ring the police.
The tests should have been arranged by the Portuguese police.
We are told by Kate in her book that she raised her concerns with regard to the twins being drugged on the night. How exactly did she do that ? The police officers did not speak English and there is nothing in Silvia Baptista statement that states she translated such concerns for Kate.
Kate also did not, it seems, share her concerns with Gerry as he didn't mention them to the PJ either. No mention of them either in any of the numerous calls she made to friends and family.
When talking to the FLO the McCanns could have asked for them to request that the twins were tested by the PJ, but they didn't. Why was that ?
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We are told by Kate in her book that she raised her concerns with regard to the twins being drugged on the night. How exactly did she do that ? The police officers did not speak English and there is nothing in Silvia Baptista statement that states she translated such concerns for Kate.
Kate also did not, it seems, share her concerns with Gerry as he didn't mention them to the PJ either. No mention of them either in any of the numerous calls she made to friends and family.
When talking to the FLO the McCanns could have asked for them to request that the twins were tested by the PJ, but they didn't. Why was that ?
The book of course contains quite a few lies and exaggerations in an attempt to show the Mccanns in a good light.
Trouble is for them, there are other sources of information which reveal the real truth.
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Not up to me to prove or disprove your claims, Stephen - you made them, you quote the source for your claims.
Unfortunately you are showing your prejudice.
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Not up to me to prove or disprove your claims, Stephen - you made them, you quote the source for your claims.
Unfortunately you are showing your prejudice.
And you are showing your sycophancy.
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As with most modern professions a medical practitioner has to maintain a certain level of expertise in order to remain on the Register.
I understand that both parents trained in anaesthesiology or as anaesthetists in order to qualify as doctors.
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No mention of them either in any of the numerous calls she made to friends and family.
Yes, and though some of them rejected the idea Madeleine could be taken without screaming.
The sedation issue is tabu.
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Not up to me to prove or disprove your claims, Stephen - you made them, you quote the source for your claims.
Unfortunately you are showing your prejudice.
From the horses mouth........................
'After completing my 'house jobs' (as they were known then - basically a doctor's first year post-qualification), I'd found myself embarking on a career in obstetrics and gynaecology. While that hadn't been my intention - I'd planned simply to gain the experience I needed for general practice - I really enjoyed O&G..... I wasn't completely sure it was for me.
Early in 1995, during an oncology posting I'd taken up to enhance my O&G training, I started to apply for jobs in Australia via an organized scheme....... found myself being offered a job by a neo-natal consultant in Auckland.
I loved my job in the neo-natal unit, and I loved working with babies, but it was something of a baptism of fire. I was classed as a registrar even though I had no neo-natal experience and had junior doctors working under me who did.
After my stint at the neo-natal unit, I took a six-month job in O&G in Wellington.
So in September 1996 we returned to Glasgow.
I worked initially at the maternity unit at the Queen Mother's Hospital before transferring to anaesthetics at the Western Infirmary in 1997.
(In between times desparately trying for a baby)
We were now living in Leicestershire, having taken the decision to move south in 2000 to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology.
By this time I had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in *Glasgow* and was working hard towards completing my postgraduate exams or 'fellowship'. Within six months, I'd been able to transfer to the registrar rotation in Leicester and we had settled in Queniborough.
Shortly after we moved to Queniborough I decided to leave anaesthetics and train for general practice. It wasn't an easy decision to make - I was happy in anaesthetics, and it meant that my fellowship would be redundant in terms of furthering my career
With the variety of hospital posts I already had under my belt, all I needed was a six-month position in psychiatry to gain the breadth of experience required for GP training. However, I still wanted to finish my anaesthetics fellowship.
I did my GP training at a surgery in Melton Mowbray.
When I'd finished my training I secured a locum post at the surgery.....................'
There you are.
P.S. She did not finish her training after finding the work load too heavy for anesthesiology.
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From the horses mouth........................
'After completing my 'house jobs' (as they were known then - basically a doctor's first year post-qualification), I'd found myself embarking on a career in obstetrics and gynaecology. While that hadn't been my intention - I'd planned simply to gain the experience I needed for general practice - I really enjoyed O&G..... I wasn't completely sure it was for me.
Early in 1995, during an oncology posting I'd taken up to enhance my O&G training, I started to apply for jobs in Australia via an organized scheme....... found myself being offered a job by a neo-natal consultant in Auckland.
I loved my job in the neo-natal unit, and I loved working with babies, but it was something of a baptism of fire. I was classed as a registrar even though I had no neo-natal experience and had junior doctors working under me who did.
After my stint at the neo-natal unit, I took a six-month job in O&G in Wellington.
So in September 1996 we returned to Glasgow.
I worked initially at the maternity unit at the Queen Mother's Hospital before transferring to anaesthetics at the Western Infirmary in 1997.
(In between times desparately trying for a baby)
We were now living in Leicestershire, having taken the decision to move south in 2000 to enable Gerry to take up a training post in cardiology.
By this time I had been promoted to a registrar post in anaesthetics in *Glasgow* and was working hard towards completing my postgraduate exams or 'fellowship'. Within six months, I'd been able to transfer to the registrar rotation in Leicester and we had settled in Queniborough.
Shortly after we moved to Queniborough I decided to leave anaesthetics and train for general practice. It wasn't an easy decision to make - I was happy in anaesthetics, and it meant that my fellowship would be redundant in terms of furthering my career
With the variety of hospital posts I already had under my belt, all I needed was a six-month position in psychiatry to gain the breadth of experience required for GP training. However, I still wanted to finish my anaesthetics fellowship.
I did my GP training at a surgery in Melton Mowbray.
When I'd finished my training I secured a locum post at the surgery.....................'
There you are.
P.S. She did not finish her training after finding the work load too heavy for anesthesiology.
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Yes but she was still a qualified anaesthetist who was employed as a Registrar as such. Maybe you can edit your previous posts accordingly Stephen otherwise I will remove them entirely.
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Yes but she was still a qualified anaesthetist who was employed as a Registrar as such. Maybe you can edit your previous posts accordingly Stephen otherwise I will remove them entirely.
Can you please show where it proven she is a qualified anesthetist ?
I will then remove them quite happily.
FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES :
'A consultant anesthetist in the UK is a fully qualified doctor, who has spent at least 9 years (7 of which should be in anesthesia) after graduation as a trainee, and is appointed as a consultant. A trainee anesthetist in the UK is a fully qualified doctor on their way to become a consultant; they could be 2 years post graduation or may be even 10 years post graduation.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesiologist
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Under the MMC (Modernising Medical Careers) revised curriculum for anaesthetics, the indicative length of training for the award of a Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT) is 7 years.
http://www.frca.co.uk/page.aspx?id=100
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Stephen. Kate was employed as a registrar anaesthetist in both Glasgow and Leicester. Nobody is claiming she was a consultant.
In the UK you don't employ people as anaesthetists unless they are qualified so let's stop this nonsense claiming that she was never an anaesthetist.
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Stephen. Kate was employed as a registrar anaesthetist in both Glasgow and Leicester. Nobody is claiming she was a consultant.
In the UK you don't employ people as anaesthetists unless they are qualified so let's stop this nonsense claiming that she was never an anaesthetist.
I believe you will find John that a registrar is a trainee and not a fully qualified person in that discipline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialist_registrar
That is my final say on this matter.
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I believe you find John that a registrar is a trainee and not a fully qualified person in that discipline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialist_registrar
That is my final say on this matter.
I was under the impression that a registrar is a trainee specialist. Working as a resident doctor for a nominal time prior to becoming a registrar.
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I was under the impression that a registrar is a trainee specialist. Working as a resident doctor for a nominal time prior to becoming a registrar.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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I believe you will find John that a registrar is a trainee and not a fully qualified person in that discipline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialist_registrar
That is my final say on this matter.
Stephen, come on. Does it really matter?
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Designate professional activities and competences with the correct word is important.
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Designate professional activities and competences with the correct word is important.
Eh? Que c'est que tu vas dire Anne?
Translation: What do you mean, Anne?
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It can be confusing when googling to understand what a regiatrar actually is. End of the day, anaesthetist or not, Kate Mccann was checking her children for signs of life! If she thought they had been given any substance,she would not know what it could be and any side effects. there was a whole heap of doctors there that night, that none thought it urgent to alert police or go to a and e says to me it wasnt urgent IMO
The not speaking the language and that they were distraugt apologies does not cut any mustard either in those circumstances.
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Eh? Que c'est que tu vas dire Anne?
Translation: What do you mean, Anne?
Translation : qu'est-ce que tu veux dire, or (better) que veux-tu dire ?
Rachel, je veux dire que la communication est déjŕ en soi difficile et que si on n'est pas rigoureux dans l'emploi des mots, alors elle devient impossible.
Translation : Rachel, I mean that communication, in itself, is difficult and if we don't use words with rigour, then it turns impossible.
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Kate Mccann was checking her children for signs of life! If she thought they had been given any substance,she would not know what it could be and any side effects.
The extraordinary wasn't the twins' sleep but the fact their sleep wasn't disturbed. As their way of sleeping was normal, Dr McCann, competent in anaesthetics, knew the possible substance couldn't have serious side effects except for breathing. This is what she checked.
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The extraordinary wasn't the twins' sleep but the fact their sleep wasn't disturbed. As their way of sleeping was normal, Dr McCann, competent in anaesthetics, knew the possible substance couldn't have serious side effects except for breathing. This is what she checked.
Ah OK. Thank you.
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Good. I'm pleased the matter of Kate's training as an anaethetist has been put to bed. She did not lie or make a false claim.
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Good. I'm pleased the matter of Kate's training as an anaethetist has been put to bed. She did not lie or make a false claim.
Well that will havebeen a first then, glad your happy
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i've said it before and I say it again. I think someone slipped a sleeping draught into their teatime drink or gave them a dosed sweetie ... and Madeleine a double dose
It was only 5.354/5.40 and Madeleine was too tired to walk home from her tea. She had to be carried.
They were all to tired to go out that night and have tbeir usual little play on the slide etc. in their jamies.
There has to be a reason for that.
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i've said it before and I say it again. I think someone slipped a sleeping draught into their teatime drink or gave them a dosed sweetie ... and Madeleine a double dose
It was only 5.354/5.40 and Madeleine was too tired to walk home from her tea. She had to be carried.
They were all to tired to go out that night and have tbeir usual little play on the slide etc. in their jamies.
There has to be a reason for that.
Can you elaborate on "a dosed sweetie"?
Considering that the McCanns seemed to insist on their children joining in with every activity available, so that they could pursue their own hobbies and enjoyment, it's quite likely that such young children were wiped out with tiredness by teatime.
Still inexcusable to leave them alone, though. IMO.
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Can you elaborate on "a dosed sweetie"?
Considering that the McCanns seemed to insist on their children joining in with every activity available, so that they could pursue their own hobbies and enjoyment, it's quite likely that such young children were wiped out with tiredness by teatime.
Still inexcusable to leave them alone, though. IMO.
But, weren't the children seen in the apartment, standing up, and looking "extremely happy", "healthy" and "well-presented"?
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Can you elaborate on "a dosed sweetie"?
Considering that the McCanns seemed to insist on their children joining in with every activity available, so that they could pursue their own hobbies and enjoyment, it's quite likely that such young children were wiped out with tiredness by teatime.
Still inexcusable to leave them alone, though. IMO.
just the one evening that they were too tired to play, shona?
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But, weren't the children seen in the apartment, standing up, and looking "extremely happy", "healthy" and "well-presented"?
The only thing I have not seen in this endless speculation is Kate McCann going berserk with a rifle.
Still we are just short of 27000 posts so I am sure someone will suggest it soon.
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just the one evening that they were too tired to play, shona?
Yes. Possibly. I can't try to justify why those tiny children were left on their own...as Outlook pointed out, the McCanns thought that they weren't making the biggest mistake of their lives. And, clumsy as they were, they didn't deserve to pay such a desperate price. But I would imagine that most of us on here are parents and grandparents, and because of their stupidity, we are all haunted by what has probably happened to that little girl. She wasn't stolen, like Jamie Bulger or Kerry Needham's little tot. She, to all intents and purposes, was given away.
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Yes. Possibly. I can't try to justify why those tiny children were left on their own...as Outlook pointed out, the McCanns thought that they weren't making the biggest mistake of their lives. And, clumsy as they were, they didn't deserve to pay such a desperate price. But I would imagine that most of us on here are parents and grandparents, and because of their stupidity, we are all haunted by what has probably happened to that little girl. She wasn't stolen, like Jamie Bulger or Kerry Needham's little tot. She, to all intents and purposes, was given away.
I think that is the issue here. Everyone without exception has had some scare with their kids and it haunts them so they like to transfer their guilt onto the McCanns.
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Yes. Possibly. I can't try to justify why those tiny children were left on their own...as Outlook pointed out, the McCanns thought that they weren't making the biggest mistake of their lives. And, clumsy as they were, they didn't deserve to pay such a desperate price. But I would imagine that most of us on here are parents and grandparents, and because of their stupidity, we are all haunted by what has probably happened to that little girl. She wasn't stolen, like Jamie Bulger or Kerry Needham's little tot. She, to all intents and purposes, was given away.
Rubbish !
sorry
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Rubbish !
sorry
Please, don't be sorry. I'm sure you're right, in some way. What happened shouldn't have happened. But if you insist on leaving your most treasured thing in such a vulnerable position, what do you expect? Again, Outlook has made a very valid point. When my eldest was 3, we were tossing coins into a fountain, and the next thing I knew she's wandered into Marks and Sparks and was holding another woman's hand. When my second sprog was with me in Tesco's, she got stuck between two freezers, and I lost sight of her for nearly 5 minutes. These things do happen.
But you know what I'm going to say, don't you?
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I think that is the issue here. Everyone without exception has had some scare with their kids and it haunts them so they like to transfer their guilt onto the McCanns.
Or perhaps the McCanns know because of that fear parents will identify with them and it is that that is being used by the McCanns to gain sympathy ?
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I think that is the issue here. Everyone without exception has had some scare with their kids and it haunts them so they like to transfer their guilt onto the McCanns.
What amazes me in this generalization, is the paradoxical use of "they" instead of "we" after "everyone".
It's like the paradox of Eubulides : "A man says that he is lying. Is what he says true or false?"
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Your comments mean nothing to me.
Been there and done that many times.
Hope you sleep easy at night because I do.
I sleep, but I constantly worry about where my children are, although they're adults. And I put my hand on my sleeping grandchildren's backs, to make sure they're breathing.
You don't have the monopoly on caring, Neeley. We all want to raise our children. But not all of us leave smallies while we eat, drink, and talk crap. And that's just how it is.
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If you put your hand on your sleeping grandchildren to make sure they are breathing then you have a problem.
Seriously.
Okay. I'll play.
Why? What is so crazy, to not want to wake a tiny child, but to check that they're OK? Just to make sure that they're not too hot, or too cold, that they're sleeping peacefully? What would you do?
Do you have children?
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Okay. I'll play.
Why? What is so crazy, to not want to wake a tiny child, but to check that they're OK? Just to make sure that they're not too hot, or too cold, that they're sleeping peacefully? What would you do?
Do you have children?
Seriously, Neeley, if you think that it's weird to check that a small child is breathing, then I wouldn't leave you in charge of a bucket of tadpoles. And that is why people have a problem with the McCanns. 3 much loved, much needed IVF children, left in a strange, unlocked apartment. Nothing more to say, really.
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Neeley was obviously one of these parents who were apt to stick the little one in a cot on their own. We never had a cot for any of our sons, never wanted one, never seen the need for one. Our kids all slept with us from the day they were born until they were old enough to have their own bed. Putting a hand on them to check their breathing is something most parents will relate to and is a quite natural thing to do so I find Neeley's comments to be rather strange. >@@(*&)
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Not something I did, John, (co-sleeping), nor anyone I know, including my daughter. Nor did I ever put my hand on a sleeping child to ensure that they were still breathing.
Because I had my children sleep in their own cots from the day I brought them home from the hospital, does this make me a bad or neglectful parent? In the eyes of some I suppose it does ....
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Not something I did, John, (co-sleeping), nor anyone I know, including my daughter. Nor did I ever put my hand on a sleeping child to ensure that they were still breathing.
Because I had my children sleep in their own cots from the day I brought them home from the hospital, does this make me a bad or neglectful parent? In the eyes of some I suppose it does ....
+1 Chinagirl
Each of my children had a cot from day 1. And regular routine (well, in theory at least).
But each to their own - there is no right or wrong way to bring up children, just what works for a particular family.
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Well Let's look at what happened during that time that they did not wake from:
Window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
The door slamming shut,
Curtains blowing into the room,
Their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
Their mother rushing out screaming for help,
The entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
The Police investigating the scene,
Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
Both parents repeating this action and wailing
Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
The twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
Their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.
Then you have statements from Kate and Fiona and the others saying they thought they had been drugged.
Now given Kate's and Fiona's medical experience you would think they would be familiar with the Ramsey Sedation Scale which is defined as:
The Ramsay Sedation Scale (RSS) was the first scale to be defined for sedated patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is. It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale
1 Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2 Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3 Patient responds to commands only
4 Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
5 Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
6 Patient exhibits no response
Now clearly the twins were at stage 6, why did they not demand as doctors that the twins were immediately taken to hopsital?
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Who was going to take them? How were the parents in a position to "demand" anything?
This aspect has been discussed countless times on countless forums over the past six years and nobody has yet come up with a definitive answer because, quite simply, none of us were there, so no one can answer your absurd question - though I'm sure that won't stop you from expounding some absurd speculation!
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Albertini
Quote
The Ramsay Sedation Scale (RSS) was the first scale to be defined for sedated patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is. It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale
1 Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2 Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3 Patient responds to commands only
4 Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
5 Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
6 Patient exhibits no response
and them you go on to assert that the twins were at Stage 6 .. as FACT
What a crass thing to post Albertini
That Ramsey Sedation Scale is clearly looking at people who are awake, NOT asleep, So it doesn't apply.
You could be right, but you could be wrong ... Just pure speculation ... nothing more
Personally I am inclined to think that some sedation had been slipped into a drink or food at teatime, or even a bit before. That they had been sedated, in some way, at least Madeleine to some extent... and possibly the twins.
BUT IT AINT A FACT. and the scale you mention is nonsence for anyone who is not awake. Or so it seems ti me.
Remember, Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carrieed back fromm the Tapas at only 5.35/5.40pm .... and alll of them were too tired to have their usual pre- bedtime play with the other kids ... so sedation does appear a likely option - but it AINT DACT
Your post, Albertini, is an example of how myths are started
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Who was going to take them? How were the parents in a position to "demand" anything?
Dead simple. When the police arrived you either say to them, or to the staff to ask the police if you feel you are struggling with the language barrier, "we are trained doctors and we believe the twins have been drugged or sedated. Please call an ambulance."
They are doctors for heavens sake. I don't know why you think they would have been incapable of asking for an ambulance to come.
This aspect has been discussed countless times on countless forums over the past six years and nobody has yet come up with a definitive answer because, quite simply, none of us were there, so no one can answer your absurd question - though I'm sure that won't stop you from expounding some absurd speculation!
Excuse me but why is it absurd to ponder why trained doctors and anesthetists no less, should not, having discovered one child missing, use their professional training and knowledge of the Ramsey scale to determine the twins needed urgent medical attention given their lack of responsiveness?
Looking at the statements provided then and since and taking into account their medical backgrounds it was either negligent of them (as parents as well as doctors) in not requesting an ambulance or there was at that time something preventing them from requesting medical assistance. Which then leads on to more searching questions.
If you feel this has all been done to death over the last 6 years (which appears to be a bit of a running theme in your posts) may i ask why you continue to post on this forum about this case?
I was led to believe you were one of the more respected supporter's of the family however i find your recent posts to myself and others to be both condescending and patronising.
Either you want to take part in the debate in the proper manner this forum aspires to or you simply leave these discussions alone.
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and them you go on to assert that the twins were at Stage 6 .. as FACT
What a crass thing to post Albertini
That Ramsey Sedation Scale is clearly looking at people who are awake, NOT asleep, So it doesn't apply.
You could be right, but you could be wrong ... Just pure speculation ... nothing more
Personally I am inclined to think that some sedation had been slipped into a drink or food at teatime, or even a bit before. That they had been sedated, in some way, at least Madeleine to some extent... and possibly the twins.
BUT IT AINT A FACT. and the scale you mention is nonsence for anyone who is not awake. Or so it seems ti me.
Remember, Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carrieed back fromm the Tapas at only 5.35/5.40pm .... and alll of them were too tired to have their usual pre- bedtime play with the other kids ... so sedation does appear a likely option - but it AINT DACT
Your post, Albertini, is an example of how myths are started
"Crass" & "Myths". Two of the favourite words of the Mccann supporters.
The twins did not respond to the noise in the apartment nor to human touch which is point 5 on the scale.
To say that the scale doesn't apply because they were asleep is absurd and simply wrong. At that level of sedation you would appear asleep and you certainly wouldn't be able to differentiate between natural sleep and sedation.
In fact the Ramsay scale has 3 levels of awake (levels 1-3) and 3 asleep levels (4-6).
So it patently does apply and indeed that is how myths start when you attempt to rewrite the Ramsay scale to suit your argument.
All the group at one time or another said they were sedated, so it is not a "[ censored word ]" simply making it up.
If we accept they were sedated we look at the Ramsey scale to see to what level. Clearly given all the information about what went on and the fact they couldn't be roused by noise or touch points to number 6, doesn't it?
Which then leads on to the questions about why they wouldn't seek medical help there and then.
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The Ramsay Sedation Scale is used to measure different levels of sedation in medical patients. Of the various sedation scales used in anesthesiology, the Ramsay Sedation Scale has been one of the most widely adopted since its introduction in 1974. The scale monitors stages of sedation using a six-level scale—level one representing the least amount of sedation and six the most. The Ramsay Sedation Scale is divided into two parts: levels one through three monitor waking levels, and levels four through six monitor sleeping levels.
Of the waking levels, level one represents the most awake, with patients displaying a combination of being restless, anxious and agitated. Level two patients are more peaceful, patient and cooperative. Level three patients are the least responsive while still retaining consciousness, responding only to commands.
Of the sleeping levels, level four represents the least asleep, with patients able to quickly respond to a light tap or loud noise. Level five patients respond sluggishly. Level six patients are completely sedated, unable to respond to any stimulus.
Dr. Michael A.E. Ramsay, an anesthesiologist who became president of the Baylor Research Institute, developed the Ramsay Sedation Scale during a clinical study that monitored the various sedation levels of patients using a sedative called alphaxalone-alphadolone, or Althesin. The study attempted to optimize levels of sedation in various patients, with satisfactory levels ranging between two and five. The results of the study were published in the British Medical Journal, in an article titled "Controlled Sedation with Alphaxalone-Alphadolone."
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Well Let's look at what happened during that time that they did not wake from:
Window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
The door slamming shut,
Curtains blowing into the room,
Their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
Their mother rushing out screaming for help,
The entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
The Police investigating the scene,
Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
Both parents repeating this action and wailing
Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
The twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
Their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.
Then you have statements from Kate and Fiona and the others saying they thought they had been drugged.
Now given Kate's and Fiona's medical experience you would think they would be familiar with the Ramsey Sedation Scale which is defined as:
Now clearly the twins were at stage 6, why did they not demand as doctors that the twins were immediately taken to hopsital?
As a parent I can assure you that young children who are extremely tired, as they often were when totally exhausted after a days playing on holiday, childrens club ,pool, playground etc, can fall into a very deep sleep. I have known my children to be impossible to rouse having fallen to sleep late at night. They would be deemed 6 on the Ramsay scale but the Ramsay scale is not applicable in this scenario. I find the twins sleeping nothing out of the ordinary.
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Agree Davel. One of mine was the same - when tired slept very deeply and was impossible to wake. If one tried, they would fall back asleep immediatley. One of the others was a very light sleeper.
I think the problem is that some posters here pronounce with authority, having gained their profound knowledge of all things medical and legal from, er, Wikipeadia.
The Ramsay scale is really not applicable outside a hospital setting, and particularly not in these circumstances. But hey - when it comes to beating the McCanns any stick will do, even a fake one.
It "keeps hope alive".
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Dead simple. When the police arrived you either say to them, or to the staff to ask the police if you feel you are struggling with the language barrier, "we are trained doctors and we believe the twins have been drugged or sedated. Please call an ambulance."
Once again all said with hindsight. The McCanns were in a terrible state of anxiety and terror and yet you expect them to be capable of thinking calmly and logically. You are also expecting them to behave how YOU think they should have behaved. Why is that? They reacted in the way the situation affected them not other people. There is no right or wrong way to react to extreme shock. It affects you how it affects you - full stop - you can't pick and choose what your reaction is going to be.
Unless you have been in the same situation you cannot know for sure how you would have reacted. The nearest you can get is to only THINK you know.
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Once again all said with hindsight. The McCanns were in a terrible state of anxiety and terror and yet you expect them to be capable of thinking calmly and logically. You are also expecting them to behave how YOU think they should have behaved. Why is that? They reacted in the way the situation affected them not other people. There is no right or wrong way to react to extreme shock. It affects you how it affects you - full stop - you can't pick and choose what your reaction is going to be.
Unless you have been in the same situation you cannot know for sure how you would have reacted. The nearest you can get is to only THINK you know.
We are told by Kate herself that she raised her concerns that the twins had been sedated with the police on the night so why not demand an ambulance at that time ?
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We are told by Kate herself that she raised her concerns that the twins had been sedated with the police on the night so why not demand an ambulance at that time ?
Because that was the extent of her reaction at the time. Once again you are expecting her to do what YOU think she should have done - and also with the benefit of hindsight which she did not have. Kate had no way of knowing what the police would do with the info she gave them - and she had her missing daughter uppermost in her mind at the time. She would not be thinking clearly. We know that by the end of the night the police had done nothing to check on the twins but she didn't know that was going to be the case until after it happened.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Agree Davel. One of mine was the same - when tired slept very deeply and was impossible to wake. If one tried, they would fall back asleep immediately. One of the others was a very light sleeper.
I think the problem is that some posters here pronounce with authority, having gained their profound knowledge of all things medical and legal from, er, Wikipeadia.
The Ramsay scale is really not applicable outside a hospital setting, and particularly not in these circumstances. But hey - when it comes to beating the McCanns any stick will do, even a fake one.
It "keeps hope alive".
I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.
The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.
Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.
And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.
Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?
You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.
To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.
A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.
Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.
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I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.
The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.
Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.
And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.
Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?
You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.
To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.
A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.
Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.
It not unusual for toddlers to sleep through the most horrendous noise. Have you never attended a wedding reception or 18th birthday party etc etc where the ear splitting disco is blaring out and seen toddlers peacefully sleeping through it all in their buggies having worn themselves out joining in the celebrations.
The difficulties which the parents would confront by taking the twins to a hospital themselves have already been pointed out. It is not as simple as it first looks.
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Because that was the extent of her reaction at the time. Once again you are expecting her to do what YOU think she should have done - and also with the benefit of hindsight which she did not have. Kate had no way of knowing what the police would do with the info she gave them - and she had her missing daughter uppermost in her mind at the time. She would not be thinking clearly. We know that by the end of the night the police had done nothing to check on the twins but she didn't know that was going to be the case until after it happened.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
So she didn't mention that she thought their children may have been drugged to her husband or her closest friend who was with her virtually all of the night, because that's what you'd have us believe. Or was that another one of those 'insignificant' events that didn't cross her mind to tell anyone about until much, much later ?
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I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.
The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.
Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.
And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.
Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?
You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.
To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.
A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.
Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.
The McCanns didn't mention the twins to the FLO on the 5th, they merely asked whether there was any evidence that sedation had been used on the 3rd. Now here we have, you would think, the perfect opportunity for the McCanns to voice their concerns that the children may have been sedated and to request tests be carried out but nope, not a word. You have to ask yourself why that was, don't you ?
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So she didn't mention that she thought their children may have been drugged to her husband or her closest friend who was with her virtually all of the night, because that's what you'd have us believe. Or was that another one of those 'insignificant' events that didn't cross her mind to tell anyone about until much, much later ?
I don't know every word Kate uttered that night. We only know a very small part of what she said. What I do know is that she was traumatised, distraught, terrified and in shock - so I would not expect her to have behaved rationally, or logically at any time. Anyone who has lost their child even for a couple of minutes will have some understandng of how that affected her. Thankfully that never happened to me - but unlike yourself apparently Faith, I have no difficulty in imagining the total horror that accompanies that worst of all nightmares - and no way would I expect them to be thinking straight or criticise them for their reactions.
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I don't know every word Kate uttered that night. We only know a very small part of what she said. What I do know is that she was traumatised, distraught, terrified and in shock - so I would not expect her to have behaved rationally, or logically at any time. Anyone who has lost their child even for a couple of minutes will have some understandng of how that affected her. Thankfully that never happened to me - but unlike yourself apparently Faith, I have no difficulty in imagining the total horror that accompanies that worst of all nightmares - and no way would I expect them to be thinking straight or criticise them for their reactions.
Of course you don't know every word Benice but if she had voiced her concerns to her husband or best friend don't you think that would be in their statements ? Fiona remembers Kate putting her hands on the twins so you would have though she would remember Kate saying to her, or indeed the police that she thought the twins may have been drugged, agreed ?
Further if the McCanns were calm enough by the 5th to ask the FLOs about sedation to enable an abduction they would certainly be calm enough to ask for the twins to be tested. After all it may have answered their own questions regarding the abduction.
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I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.
The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.
Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.
And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.
Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?
You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.
To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.
A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.
Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.
All the little things that make you suspect the McCanns are easily explained and in truth amount to nothing.
the emphasis that night would have been madeleine. There is a vacuum, and any crazy theory can be purported as a vacuum is easy to fill. There is tons more evidence that the moon is hollow and is a spacecraft. many people believe it, particularly on the ICKE site where tony Bennett posts. Doesn't make it true. How were the twins supposedly sedated. Perhaps it was calpol as DR(?) Amaral suspects. Just shows how poor his judgement is.
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All the little things that make you suspect the McCanns are easily explained and in truth amount to nothing.
the emphasis that night would have been madeleine. There is a vacuum, and any crazy theory can be purported as a vacuum is easy to fill.
And yet no one has "easily explained" why the twins weren't sent to hospital on the 3rd or the 5th, just like no one has "easily explained" why the tapas tennis timings contradicted each other so spectacularly, nor "easily explained" why the group killed off the investigation at the very time it was trying to recreate and iron out these discrepancies by the way of a reconstruction.
Can you explain why the theory about sedation is "crazy"? What part of it is crazy to you given what we know?
There is tons more evidence that the moon is hollow and is a spacecraft. many people believe it, particularly on the ICKE site where tony Bennett posts. Doesn't make it true. How were the twins supposedly sedated. Perhaps it was calpol as DR(?) Amaral suspects. Just shows how poor his judgement is.
There is precisely zero evidence of an abduction taking place and containing (amongst other things), one or two abductors passing children through doors and windows, using cars, but then hiding in bushes for 25 minutes to wait to be seen by the Smiths and then to go off in some boat somewhere driven by, perhaps a Victoria Beckham lookalike, or maybe instead to be kept in a "hellish lair" around the lawless hills of PDL (lol).
Now that's the stuff for Icke's forum.
No idea why you mention Tony Bennett, What's he got to do with anything?
The fact is the witnessess then and since have stated they saw behaviour which suggested the children had been sedated, including the testimony of doctors (and anaesthetists) and the evidence about what they "slept" through in that apartment that evening vindicates that theory.
We also have evidence saying the Mccann's asked on the 5th May if there was evidence of sedation.
Yet at no point do we have the McCann's requesting an ambulance or going to a hopsital to see if their twins had been drugged with something.
So i have no idea why you feel it is crazy to suggest that all these factors could lead to a theory based on the McCann's not wanting their twins to be taken to a hospital if they suspected sedation having been administered to their children.
Because as doctors to suspect an abductor has got into your apartment and sedated the twins within 48 hours of the event and then not take your children to hospital for testing is not normal and, i propose, highly suspicious.
But to you that's crazy! How strange!
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I think there were a lot more important things to do than check the twins for sedation such as trying to find what had happened to Maddie. I find your theories ridiculous. Why should the McCanns mention sedation if they themselves had sedated Maddie . doesn't make sense.
furthermore , if they were any way involved why would they have pushed for SY to investigate them.
the bottom line is the PJ did not have the evidence to charge them. SY have enough sense to rule out the family first as they seem to have done. They have stated the family are not suspects but you still believe the mcCanns are involved. Lets hope Portugal allow SY to complete their investigations to see if they can find out what happened to Maddie and stop all this abuse directed towards the family on the internet.
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I think there were a lot more important things to do than check the twins for sedation such as trying to find what had happened to Maddie.
Yes, like Kate asking her auntie that night to cancel the tescos online shop delivery for Saturday! great priority over doing something to get her twins checked out if she was looking for signs of life! as she says.
Or ringing her friends family and priest in the UK as if they was going to help find Maddie.Meanwhile never going out to look because it was too cold and dark! Some posts do take the biscuit here sometimes.
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Yes, like Kate asking her auntie that night to cancel the tescos online shop delivery for Saturday!
Is it confirmed ? I always thought it had to be a myth.
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Yes, like Kate asking her auntie that night to cancel the tescos online shop delivery for Saturday! great priority over doing something to get her twins checked out if she was looking for signs of life! as she says.
Or ringing her friends family and priest in the UK as if they was going to help find Maddie.Meanwhile never going out to look because it was too cold and dark! Some posts do take the biscuit here sometimes.
Nothing wrong with phoning family, or a priest.
So they didn't look because it was too cold and dark. I reckon that's an outright lie. Can you back it up?
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Is it confirmed ? I always thought it had to be a myth.
these aren't myths. Anne. These are vile people telling vile lies about a distraught couple. I will happily apologise if I am shown to be wrong.
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Why should the McCanns mention sedation if they themselves had sedated Maddie . doesn't make sense.
1) Everybody observed it was strange both kids slept like logs in an hysteric context. But why sedate kids you don't intend to abduct and who are already sleeping ?
2) The McCanns didn't "mention sedation", they asked if the police had found traces of sedation. "If they themselves had sedated Maddie", as you suppose, they'd certainly prefer it remained ignored that unwillingly they facilitated the abduction, don't you think ?
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Nothing wrong with phoning family, or a priest.
So they didn't look because it was too cold and dark. I reckon that's an outright lie. Can you back it up?
Darkness was mentioned, I'm sure, but unconvincingly. Actually, as a sceptic, I'd say that one thing is saying your child was abducted, another is to fake searching for your child.
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Darkness was mentioned, I'm sure, but unconvincingly. Actually, as a sceptic, I'd say that one thing is saying your child was abducted, another is to fake searching for your child.
I am sure I have read that both the McCanns went out that night although Kate stayed behind initially in case Maddie turned up
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Is it confirmed ? I always thought it had to be a myth.
it was definitely said, strange *myth* for anyone to make up, I dont have the reference to hand butwill look for it later.
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Nothing wrong with phoning family, or a priest.
So they didn't look because it was too cold and dark. I reckon that's an outright lie. Can you back it up?
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
There are other references
Why WAIT for light...and less of the vile vile people hey?
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these aren't myths. Anne. These are vile people telling vile lies about a distraught couple. I will happily apologise if I am shown to be wrong.
Yes they are lies, Davel. They rang family and friends, Yes, and why not?
They did not ring the priest, in the UK!
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I am sure I have read that both the McCanns went out that night although Kate stayed behind initially in case Maddie turned up
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
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When questioned, he says that on that night he made several phone calls, including calls to two sisters, a couple of Kate's uncles, his brother or certainly sent him a message, father P. S. who baptized Madeleine and married G. and K.
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While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
so this is what you base your "didn't search" evidence on. Pathetic.
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Why WAIT for light..
Yes, why ? The moonlight was enough and, if she was around, hurt, frightened, crucial had been Mum or Dad's voice.
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Yes, why ? The moonlight was enough and, if she was around, hurt, frightened, crucial had been Mum or Dad's voice.
who says they waited for light, Tony bennett
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so this is what you base your "didn't search" evidence on. Pathetic.
Pathetic or not, it's Mr McCann's answer to the PJ, as an arguido.
On what should one "base his/her didn't search evidence" ?
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who says they waited for light, Tony bennett
Who is that ? And why don't your base your statements on the McCanns themselves ?
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who says they waited for light, Tony bennett
Why are you bringing TB into this? It was Kate Mccann who said they waited for first light, as has already been posted, its also in her BOOK!!
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When questioned, he says that on that night he made several phone calls, including calls to two sisters, a couple of Kate's uncles, his brother or certainly sent him a message, father P. S. who baptized Madeleine and married G. and K.
That was after the initial phone call to the priest.
The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the ?world was about to fall apart?.
At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest.
Gerry phoned me on the same night and he also seemed to me to be quite traumatised and at the same time very upset and angry.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_SEDDEN.htm
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Yes they are lies, Davel. They rang family and friends, Yes, and why not?
They did not ring the priest, in the UK!
yes, MY mistake, they just asked for his number in the middle of the night, also asking where the PDL church was at 3am or so, that was going to help too
Eta thanks Anne, missed your post that they made a call to PS that night
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Why are you bringing TB into this? It was Kate Mccann who said they waited for first light, as has already been posted, its also in her BOOK!!
I know I have read that Gerry went out searching. you stated that they did not go out because it was too cold and dark . I believe that is a lie.
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yes, MY mistake, they just asked for his number in the middle of the night, also asking where the PDL church was at 3am or so, that was going to help too
Eta thanks Anne, missed your post that they made a call to PS that night
Not Father Seddon's number they didn't! Why would they when he had Kates number, and she had his?
I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile
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Yes, why ? The moonlight was enough and, if she was around, hurt, frightened, crucial had been Mum or Dad's voice.
yes absolutely and torches and jackets!
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I think there were a lot more important things to do than check the twins for sedation such as trying to find what had happened to Maddie. I find your theories ridiculous. Why should the McCanns mention sedation if they themselves had sedated Maddie . doesn't make sense.
Pardon? come again? You think phoning relatives or friends or sleeping is more important than checking to see if your twin children have been sedated with God knows what, which could do heaven knows what to them?
Really?
And you find my theories ridiculous. Pot, kettle black there, but of course you do not provide any answers as to what precisely could be described as "ridiculous".
Shall i tell you want doesn't make sense? Thinking your children have been sedated by an abductor but then not getting them medically checked out to make sure they are ok. That doesn't make sense.
Why should they mention sedation? Perhaps as a way to cover the suspicion as to why the twins didn't wake up, knowing that if the twins were actually checked out and it was found they had been sedated, they had got their defence in early.
furthermore , if they were any way involved why would they have pushed for SY to investigate them.
the bottom line is the PJ did not have the evidence to charge them. SY have enough sense to rule out the family first as they seem to have done. They have stated the family are not suspects but you still believe the mcCanns are involved. Lets hope Portugal allow SY to complete their investigations to see if they can find out what happened to Maddie and stop all this abuse directed towards the family on the internet.
We keep going through all this. Let us see what happens with the investigation. It's taking them a while to bring in those abductors though isn't it? Even those "persons of interest" who were supposedly being "swooped on" weeks ago. What happened to them?
Who is abusing them? We are simply to quote Gerry McCann "purporting a theory" which Gerry tells us as he has no problem with.
And after all these questions about them are still being asked becasue they killed the investigation before their version of events could be clarified by the PJ.
Had they actively participated and allowed the PJ to move forward then they wouldn't have this weight of suspicion against them.
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I know I have read that Gerry went out searching. you stated that they did not go out because it was too cold and dark . I believe that is a lie.
No, you are mistsken, i never said THEY did not go out searchng, just Kate. So there is no lie.She didnt.
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Not Father Seddon's number they didn't! Why would they when he had Kates number, and she had his?
I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile
?????
transcript from a tv interview, eta btw she is talking about that night
Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more power than… than we have.'
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And fromSeddons statement, it sure seems it was that night
The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the ?world was about to fall apart?.
At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest.
So less of thecrying out of LIES LIES
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No, you are mistsken, i never said THEY did not go out searchng, just Kate. So there is no lie.She didnt.
She did Red.
Searches made after they moved the twins to the Paynes apartment
Pages 81-83 Kate's book
...................................At one point I went out to speak to the police, needing some reassurance. It was difficult and exasperating as communication was so limited and there was no reassurance to be had. I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I'd spot something in the dark. The fear of Madeleine being dumped somewhere and dying of hypothermia started to hijack my thoughts.............................
............................As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we'd never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster type bin and saying to myself please God, don't let her be in there.
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She did Red.
Searches made after they moved the twins to the Paynes apartment
Pages 81-83 Kate's book
...................................At one point I went out to speak to the police, needing some reassurance. It was difficult and exasperating as communication was so limited and there was no reassurance to be had. I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I'd spot something in the dark. The fear of Madeleine being dumped somewhere and dying of hypothermia started to hijack my thoughts.............................
............................As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we'd never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster type bin and saying to myself please God, don't let her be in there.
Isn't it strange that apart the policeman who spotted the McCanns 'searching' just before daybreak no other policeman has claimed to have seen or spoken to Kate at the time she claims ?
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She did Red.
Searches made after they moved the twins to the Paynes apartment
Pages 81-83 Kate's book
...................................At one point I went out to speak to the police, needing some reassurance. It was difficult and exasperating as communication was so limited and there was no reassurance to be had. I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I'd spot something in the dark. The fear of Madeleine being dumped somewhere and dying of hypothermia started to hijack my thoughts.............................
............................As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we'd never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster type bin and saying to myself please God, don't let her be in there.
He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULO-NETO.htm
He remembers that during a brief rest period at about 04.00, Madeleine's mother asked whether there was any news and whether the roads had been blocked off.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
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She did Red.
Searches made after they moved the twins to the Paynes apartment
Pages 81-83 Kate's book
...................................At one point I went out to speak to the police, needing some reassurance. It was difficult and exasperating as communication was so limited and there was no reassurance to be had. I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I'd spot something in the dark. The fear of Madeleine being dumped somewhere and dying of hypothermia started to hijack my thoughts.............................
............................As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we'd never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster type bin and saying to myself please God, don't let her be in there.
Sorry, but I cant take retellings of the facts after four years as facts from a previous arguido as true, NONE was told before, when there was ALL opportunity, you carry on though believing though, its not as if she has has not told PORKIES in her BOOk, keep up Benice
Oh and she says she searched for at least an hour for her child you know eight hours after she was gone, woopie dooh did she want a medal? Whilst in the same breath criticising the dozens and dozens of volunteers and pj searches? And saying they could havebeen better organised, the total ingratitude arrogance and brass neck is stupifyng at best! What a bloody cheek! Leaving your kid vulnerble and then blaming others for not searching well enough HAHA!!! KARMA
@)(++(*
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He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULO-NETO.htm
He remembers that during a brief rest period at about 04.00, Madeleine's mother asked whether there was any news and whether the roads had been blocked off.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
So nothing in the policeman's statement about Kate's further 'searching ', I see.
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I think there were a lot more important things to do than check the twins for sedation such as trying to find what had happened to Maddie. I find your theories ridiculous. Why should the McCanns mention sedation if they themselves had sedated Maddie . doesn't make sense.
furthermore , if they were any way involved why would they have pushed for SY to investigate them.
the bottom line is the PJ did not have the evidence to charge them. SY have enough sense to rule out the family first as they seem to have done. They have stated the family are not suspects but you still believe the mcCanns are involved. Lets hope Portugal allow SY to complete their investigations to see if they can find out what happened to Maddie and stop all this abuse directed towards the family on the internet.
What an assumption to make, with no evidence.....that the Mccanns are not involved..and that SY finding what happened to Maddie WILL mean an outside source, .you see no one single person of authority has ever stated this, on the contrary most authorities have suspected them
Those are the facts
The case is a very PUBLIC CASE, it is a COLD CASE, it is UNSOLVED, the family have NOT been cleared, therefore it is within anyones rights and understandable to ask questions and not believe the Mccann mantras if they wish to do so. That is not called abuse. Its called freedom of thought.And who are you to try and expunge it just because YOU think they are innocent. You are no different to Kate Mccann saying anyone who brings up the dogs is being abusive!!! And dont ask me for a link, because it is 100% true and on their findmadeleine website
brass neck
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So nothing in the policeman's statement about Kate's further 'searching ', I see.
Thats not what you said Faith.
Isn't it strange that apart the policeman who spotted the McCanns 'searching' just before daybreak no other policeman has claimed to have seen or spoken to Kate at the time she claims ?
no other policeman has claimed to have seen or spoken to Kate at the time she claims ?
So what time did Kate claim?
As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search
4 May 2007 Sunrise Sunset
06:36 20:31
He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
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Thats not what you said Faith.
no other policeman has claimed to have seen or spoken to Kate at the time she claims ?
So what time did Kate claim?
As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search
4 May 2007 Sunrise Sunset
06:36 20:31
He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
'Isn't it strange that apart the policeman who spotted the McCanns 'searching' just before daybreak'
So that would cover that then.
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To search you have to be sure there's something to find.
The McCanns don't seem to have been convinced an alive Madeleine could be found. Eventually over the boarders, the seas, the solar system..
Would have all those benevolent searchers done what they did if they had been told Madeleine had been abducted ? See Mr Mackenzie's reaction when he heard Mr McCann speak of paedo gang on the phone.
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'Isn't it strange that apart the policeman who spotted the McCanns 'searching' just before daybreak'
So that would cover that then.
No. Why? Were there any other people around early morning?
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Sorry, but I cant take retellings of the facts after four years as facts from a previous arguido as true, NONE was told before, when there was ALL opportunity, you carry on though believing though, its not as if she has has not told PORKIES in her BOOk, keep up Benice
Oh and she says she searched for at least an hour for her child you know eight hours after she was gone, woopie dooh did she want a medal?
Oh and she says she searched for at least an hour for her child you know eight hours after she was gone, woopie dooh did she want a medal? Whilst in the same breath criticising the dozens and dozens of volunteers and pj searches? And saying they could havebeen better organised, the total ingratitude arrogance and brass neck is stupifyng at best! What a bloody cheek! Leaving your kid vulnerble and then blaming others for not searching well enough HAHA!!! KARMA
@)(++(*
So you think she was wrong to stay at 5A to speak to the police? It seems to me Red that anything Kate says which suits your agenda you believe, but if it doesn't - then you just say she lied.
Amaral was a former arguido but unlike Kate now has a criminal record as a result of it - do you have the same difficulty taking his re-telling of the facts as true?
She has never criticised the people who gave up their time to search for Madeleine - why on earth would she. Any criticism she made was aimed at the police.
All the sneering comments in the world won't alter the fact that she did search for her daughter.
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She searched for her daughter, after a lot of people had, who didn't even know before that Madeleine existed. That was in "Madeleine", 4 years later.
Lifting a bin lid suggests she didn't search for an alive Madeleine.
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To search you have to be sure there's something to find.
The McCanns don't seem to have been convinced an alive Madeleine could be found. Eventually over the boarders, the seas, the solar system..
Would have all those benevolent searchers done what they did if they had been told Madeleine had been abducted ? See Mr Mackenzie's reaction when he heard Mr McCann speak of paedo gang on the phone.
Nothing wrong with his reaction. He say's "I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off", taken into context with he had heard, makes a big difference.
It was later that evening around 10 ' 11 that I heard a commotion on the complex, I decided to go out and see what was going on. I walked round a saw a group of people gathered. John Hill the resort manager was there with some of the Mark Warner staff. I heard that a little girl called Maddie was missing, at that point I did not realise which child it was. John Hill was organising a search of the complex as it was thought that she had wandered off at that point in time. I let (my wife) know what was going on and went to join the search. I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.
I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.
He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.
I had looked up by now and we actually made eye contact, his conversation did not change at all when he realised that I was there. I felt as if I were intruding on a private moment and so I left the garden at that point. I had overheard only a snippet of it. It was only then that I realised whose child it was that was missing. I went back to the apartment to tell my wife what had happened, had a drink and went out again. [/b]
There were lots of people just standing round looking, the police eventually turned up later in the evening. There didn't seem to be any real organisation of the searching and I eventually went back to our apartment for the night.
We went to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast the following morning, they were handing out flyers with her photograph on. Everyone was very, very upset.
The following day we saw Kate McCann when she came to collect the twins from the creche at lunchtime, she was distraught and broke down sobbing.
We didn't have any other involvement with their group for the remainder of our holiday and flew home on the Saturday. On the day of our departure we had to move out of our apartment and Mark Warner gave us another to use during the day until we left.
It was across the road from the McCann's apartment and the public balcony overlooked the side of their building and the road. You could actually see the front and back of the building from that view point. I noticed on the balcony that there was a pile of cigarette butts as if there had been someone stood there for some time smoking. I thought that was odd , and it could have been someone watching the McCann's apartment to monitor their comings and goings.
It was when I heard that the police were trying to pinpoint telephone conversations made in the resort that I decided to get in touch about what
I had heard. Signed
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
More cigarette butts not checked for evidence!
When Gerry made that call, there would have been GNR, probably Sylvia Baptista and others around. He obviously wasn't trying to hide what he was saying.
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Yes, like Kate asking her auntie that night to cancel the tescos online shop delivery for Saturday! great priority over doing something to get her twins checked out if she was looking for signs of life! as she says.
Or ringing her friends family and priest in the UK as if they was going to help find Maddie.Meanwhile never going out to look because it was too cold and dark! Some posts do take the biscuit here sometimes.
Couldn't reply sooner as I had to go out. So tell me where kate says she didn't go out because it was too cold and dark. I still think you are telling lies but will apologise if I am found to be wrong.
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Pardon? come again? You think phoning relatives or friends or sleeping is more important than checking to see if your twin children have been sedated with God knows what, which could do heaven knows what to them?
Really?
And you find my theories ridiculous. Pot, kettle black there, but of course you do not provide any answers as to what precisely could be described as "ridiculous".
Shall i tell you want doesn't make sense? Thinking your children have been sedated by an abductor but then not getting them medically checked out to make sure they are ok. That doesn't make sense.
Why should they mention sedation? Perhaps as a way to cover the suspicion as to why the twins didn't wake up, knowing that if the twins were actually checked out and it was found they had been sedated, they had got their defence in early.
We keep going through all this. Let us see what happens with the investigation. It's taking them a while to bring in those abductors though isn't it? Even those "persons of interest" who were supposedly being "swooped on" weeks ago. What happened to them?
Who is abusing them? We are simply to quote Gerry McCann "purporting a theory" which Gerry tells us as he has no problem with.
And after all these questions about them are still being asked becasue they killed the investigation before their version of events could be clarified by the PJ.
Had they actively participated and allowed the PJ to move forward then they wouldn't have this weight of suspicion against them.
I think kate was quite capable of checking if the twins were in any danger re sedation, ie pulse and respiration rate being normal.
the mcCanns didn't kill the investigation. that's just your opinion and you are wrong to sate it as a fact. In my opinion the investigation failed because the PJ were incompetent. they made the McCanns arguidos, giving them the right not to answer questions and were surprised when kate stopped answerring questions. The PJ had decided the MccCanns were guilty. The McCanns had co operated fully with the PJ but stopped when they were told they were suspects, nothing abnormal in that, in my opinion.Again, in case you have not noticed, SY do not consider the MccAnns as suspects
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as suspects of abduction.
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as suspects of abduction.
NO You are making things up. the McCanns are not suspects in the SY investigation. get used to it.
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They say so, you say so... fine !
The AG found no evidence to determine the crime. If, hopefully, the Yard finds evidence, then what you say , what they say will be true. Or not.
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They say so, you say so... fine !
The AG found no evidence to determine the crime. If, hopefully, the Yard finds evidence, then what you say , what they say will be true. Or not.
So the McCanns were prime suspects, but there was no evidence of a crime.
The McCanns failed to demonstrate their innocence...of what... there was no evidence of a crime
I think Portugal need to let SY take over.
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So the McCanns were prime suspects, but there was no evidence of a crime.
The McCanns failed to demonstrate their innocence...of what... there was no evidence of a crime
I think Portugal need to let SY take over.
I didn't say "there was no evidence of a crime". Please correct !
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So the McCanns were prime suspects, but there was no evidence of a crime.
The McCanns failed to demonstrate their innocence...of what... there was no evidence of a crime
I think Portugal need to let SY take over.
Indeed, Davel. The sheer absurdity and pointlessness of the "sceptics" stance is summed up in your comment.
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Indeed, Davel. The sheer absurdity and pointlessness of the "sceptics" stance is summed up in your comment.
I'm amazed, Chinagirl, that you caution someone who reduces my "The AG found no evidence to determine the crime" to "there was no evidence of a crime."
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So, Anne - what is THE crime you think the McCanns are guilty (or at least suspected) of committing?
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So, Anne - what is THE crime you think the McCanns are guilty (or at least suspected) of committing?
Chinagirl, as the AG said, the nature of the crime that resulted in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann couldn't be determined. This appears to me as being the main issue (and the only interesting one). I find the hypothesis of abduction from bed highly implausible, but I don't reject the abduction from public space.
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Chinagirl, as the AG said, the nature of the crime that resulted in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann couldn't be determined. This appears to me as being the main issue (and the only interesting one). I find the hypothesis of abduction from bed highly implausible, but I don't reject the abduction from public space.
I agree with the first part of your comment - the non-determination of the crime. So, how then, can the McCanns be suspects in an undetermined crime? And I agree that this is,indeed, the main issue.
I can accept your scepticism of abduction from her bed (although I don't agree with you). You seem to suggest that she may have been "abducted" while outside the apartment. I have some difficulty with that.
However, I applaud you for stating your position, though I wonder why it took so long and so many devious posts!
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I agree with the first part of your comment - the non-determination of the crime. So, how then, can the McCanns be suspects in an undetermined crime? And I agree that this is,indeed, the main issue.
I can accept your scepticism of abduction from her bed (although I don't agree with you). You seem to suggest that she may have been "abducted" while outside the apartment. I have some difficulty with that.
However, I applaud you for stating your position, though I wonder why it took so long and so many devious posts!
I'm afraid you misunderstood me.
The PJ, under the control of the MP (it's like this in Portugal, the police hasn't the powers of the UK police), had to contemplate all types of crime, as listed in the AG's final report. One of them was accidental death, following the EVRD's alerts who constituted intelligence if not evidence. In this perspective the McCanns became persons of interest. I find it reasonable.
Of all possible crimes, the abduction from bed, the only one according to the McCanns, is also the only one that exonerates them totally, the latter explaining the first. Having (yet) no evidence to support it, this doxa is nothing but an hypothesis.
Like you I have some difficulty with the abduction from the public area, perhaps not for the same reasons.
But there are many more hypotheses.
My objective hasn't changed since I popped up in this forum : understand.
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No dear, kate mccann brought up the drugging from early on, she did NOTHING about it, nothing to do with any part of amarals theory months later
Kate McCann brought the question of sedation and analysis to Ricardo Paiva 4 months later, after the twins had had a very short hair cut, as Gerald McCann announced in his blog.
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Neither of the two posts above from Luz are factually correct. The role of the British ambassador and consul was to ASSIST the McCanns with the police enquiries, not to prevent them. This happens with all consular assistance anywhere in the world where a British citizen finds themselves involved in a police investigation.
The issue of possible sedation was raised long before the twins had their haircut.
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Neither of the two posts above from Luz are factually correct. The role of the British ambassador and consul was to ASSIST the McCanns with the police enquiries, not to prevent them. This happens with all consular assistance anywhere in the world where a British citizen finds themselves involved in a police investigation.
The issue of possible sedation was raised long before the twins had their haircut.
The issue of sedation was raised 4 MONTHS after the event - prove me wrong with documents.
You are a mind reader so you can go deeper than the Ambassador and Council actions and words. Fantastic.
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For today I've had it.
This case makes me sick.
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So to put the record straight, according to her book, both Kate and Gerry went out to search that night. the cold and dark claim is just another forum myth.
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The issue of sedation was raised 4 MONTHS after the event - prove me wrong with documents.
You are a mind reader so you can go deeper than the Ambassador and Council actions and words. Fantastic.
Luz, links to the statements of the family liaison officers have already been posted here. They raised the issue with them as soon as they arrived.
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So to put the record straight, according to her book, both Kate and Gerry went out to search that night. the cold and dark claim is just another forum myth.
A book is just words.
Not proof.
Jane Hill interview,no myth.
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A book is just words.
Not proof.
Jane Hill interview,no myth.
red blossom used the words cold and dark, not true.
Nowhere in the Jane Hill interview does kate say she did not search that night. If you relied on the truth you would have very little to attack the McCanns with.
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A book is just words.
Not proof.
Jane Hill interview,no myth.
So the same can be said about Amaral's book, then? Just words - not proof.
Of course, neither book is proof, but both are original sources, as are the files.
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red blossom used the words cold and dark, not true.
Nowhere in the Jane Hill interview does kate say she did not search that night. If you relied on the truth you would have very little to attack the McCanns with.
'....did not physically search for Madeleine...'
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'....did not physically search for Madeleine...'
To place it in context:
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077768/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2018
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To place it in context:
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077768/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2018
Just listen to the interview.
In it's entirety.
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'....did not physically search for Madeleine...'
How typical to take a few words out of context and hold them up as proof. Kate was not asked if she never searched for Madeleine, she was asked if she didn't feel she had wanted to join the locals and others who had given up their time in the days/week following the abduction, not on the night it happened - which is when Kate and Gerry searched.
The following day they were at the police station. Do you think they should have refused to attend - on the grounds that they were looking for their daughter? When they returned hundreds of press had arrived - with one aim in mind and that was to photograph and question the McCanns. We've all seen what happens when the 'target' of the press comes into sight. They are mobbed, jostled, have microphones stuck in the faces and questions fired at them. The idea that they would have been allowed by the Press to walk around PdL searching for their daughter unhindered is preposterous.
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How typical to take a few words out of context and hold them up as proof. Kate was not asked if she never searched for Madeleine, she was asked if she didn't feel she had wanted to join the locals and others who had given up their time in the days/week following the abduction, not on the night it happened - which is when Kate and Gerry searched.
The following day they were at the police station. Do you think they should have refused to attend - on the grounds that they were looking for their daughter? When they returned hundreds of press had arrived - with one aim in mind and that was to photograph and question the McCanns. We've all seen what happens when the 'target' of the press comes into sight. They are mobbed, jostled, have microphones stuck in the faces and questions fired at them. The idea that they would have been allowed by the Press to walk around PdL searching for their daughter unhindered is preposterous.
I said listen to the whole interview.
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I said listen to the whole interview.
I suggest you do the same but do take your blinkers off first and then tell us where Kate is asked if it was true that she never searched for Madeleine.
I see you've ignored my comments about the press attention which would have made searching impossible for them?
If the police did their job properly they will have advised the McCanns to stay at home.
IIRC April Jones parents did not search after the police were called. Apart from the fact they may well have been in no fit state to search - they followed the advice of the police.
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I suggest you do the same but do take your blinkers off first and then tell us where Kate is asked if it was true that she never searched for Madeleine.
I see you've ignored my comments about the press attention which would have made searching impossible for them?
If the police did their job properly they will have advised the McCanns to stay at home.
IIRC April Jones parents did not search after the police were called. Apart from the fact they may well have been in no fit state to search - they followed the advice of the police.
I have no blinkers.
I've watched the video.
Now why in the book did she say no one was searching for Madeleine ?
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I have no blinkers.
I've watched the video.
Now why in the book did she say no one was searching for Madeleine ?
Because when she and Gerry were out searching they never met another soul. She was referring only to that particular time and IMO she was referring to the absence of any police actively searching for her daughter - and certainly not to members of the public - to whom they have never shown anything except gratitude and who she would not know at that juncture were going to give up their time to help in the following days. Unless you are going to claim she should have been able to see into the future.
I see you still choose to ignore my other points. Says it all IMO.
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Because when she and Gerry were out searching they never met another soul. She was referring only to that particular time and IMO she was referring to the absence of any police actively searching for her daughter - and certainly not to members of the public - to whom they have never shown anything except gratitude and who she would not know at that juncture were going to give up their time to help in the following days. Unless you are going to claim she should have been able to see into the future.
I see you still choose to ignore my other points. Says it all IMO.
There is nothing to ignore.
She had every opportunity to revise the book, she didn't.
Meanwhile, what about the thread topic.
There is no excuse under the sun for not having the children tested. NOT ONE.
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There is no excuse under the sun for not having the children tested. NOT ONE.
I can agree absolutely with that comment. It is an appalling dereliction of duty that the PJ did not accede to Kate's request to have the children tested.
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There is no excuse under the sun for not having the children tested. NOT ONE.
I can agree absolutely with that comment. It is an appalling dereliction of duty that the PJ did not accede to Kate's request to have the children tested.
What request would that be Chinagirl ? There is not one scintilla of proof that Kate, or indeed Gerry, asked for the twins to be tested AT ANY TIME.
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There is, Faithlilly, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread.
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There is, Faithlilly, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread.
There absolutely is not Chinagirl. Until they were declared arguidos the McCanns hadn't even broached the subject of having the twins tested for drugs. They asked the FLO on the 5th whether there was any evidence that sedation had been used in the abduction of Madeleine. They did not voice their concerns at that time, or any other, that the twins may have been sedated due to their non-responsiveness on the night of the 3rd or indeed request that they were tested for sedatives, which, if they were concerned, would be a natural course of action don't you think ?
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There absolutely is not Chinagirl. Until they were declared arguidos the McCanns hadn't even broached the subject of having the twins tested for drugs. They asked the FLO on the 5th whether there was any evidence that sedation had been used in the abduction of Madeleine. They did not voice their concerns at that time, or any other, that the twins may have been sedated due to their non-responsiveness on the night of the 3rd or indeed request that they were tested for sedatives, which, if they were concerned, would be a natural course of action don't you think ?
Luz say's 4 months Paiva says 3.
You are wrong Faith. If Paiva say's they asked for testing 3 months after Madeleine was abducted, they had not been made arguidos.
No matter how you look at it, it was not the McCann's place to get testing done. It was down to the PJ. If Amaral was so sure, why didn't he get them tested? He didn't need their permission, he could have got a court order, if needed, which I doubt he would have.
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Luz, links to the statements of the family liaison officers have already been posted here. They raised the issue with them as soon as they arrived.
No, they raised the issue with the PJ in front of the FLO. Only 2 officers found worth to be noted their interest in knowing if the scientific police had found traces of sedation. They seem to have been satisfied with the negative answer.
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No, they raised the issue with the PJ in front of the FLO. Only 2 officers found worth to be noted their interest in knowing if the scientific police had found traces of sedation. They seem to have been satisfied with the negative answer.
Could you provide the reports concerning that?
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The twins had likely been administrated something to make them sleep so deeply. There are many witnesses of that curiosity, starting with Mrs Payne. Even if an immediate test had proven they had been drugged, it couldn't prove whether it was criminal or not. Neither could one infer Madeleine had been drugged, criminally or not. The only certainty is that she left the 5A for the last time either drugged or dead.
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Could you provide the reports concerning that?
It's in the files, Carana, and has been quoted many times on this forum.
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There are only 2 clues concerning the actual McCann "search". One is the sighting of a police officer in a street close to their car (which also shows the police hadn't left as they claimed). The other are the cell phones' activities.
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So you think she was wrong to stay at 5A to speak to the police? It seems to me Red that anything Kate says which suits your agenda you believe, but if it doesn't - then you just say she lied.
Amaral was a former arguido but unlike Kate now has a criminal record as a result of it - do you have the same difficulty taking his re-telling of the facts as true?
She has never criticised the people who gave up their time to search for Madeleine - why on earth would she. Any criticism she made was aimed at the police.
All the sneering comments in the world won't alter the fact that she did search for her daughter.
A) I dont have any agenda
B) Kate Mccann HAS xriticised the search parties when she said in an interview, if they were better organised,Madeleine may have been found, This is a FACT, even if I dont have the video to hand
C) She also said if Portugal had an amber alert system Madeleine may have been found, which is rubbish if you read up on what amber alert requires!
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Couldn't reply sooner as I had to go out. So tell me where kate says she didn't go out because it was too cold and dark. I still think you are telling lies but will apologise if I am found to be wrong.
Dont need any apologies from anyone here
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
Davel, do you have a link to any single person saying they saw Kate Mccann out searching that night? Any link to any police officer saying she went to speak to them? Any link to any video or paper interview Kate Mccann has done where she says she did any searching that night? Any link to any of her friendS or family saying she did that? Over four years?I bet no. What we do have is comments made that are taken that she did not search that night, but waited until light, including her own recorded ones. In their 2008 documentary Gerry was saying he insisted Kate stay home, so many witness statements say she was at home. The only reference to her doing any search that night comes only in 2011 in the book Madeleine. Thats it.
Now, police advice apprently is not to search, did the police advise the parents that night not to do this? or prevent the parents from doing this. I see nothing like that in the files.
The point is some people question why she didnt, thats all. So there shouldnt be any reason you get so indignated when people say she didnt. And wonder how a mother, even with dozens of people searching could just sit there. IMO she wrote of her search in her book to answer those questions.
And next morning after sunrise,which she says she was waiting for to go out and search, she was horrified there was no one out. Well, they had been out all flipping night! And they had no sunlight.
My reference to her not searching because it cold and dark I admit could be wrong because she mentioned it in the same breath. But the because it was dark is documented. And NO, being wrong or misconstruing something is not a deliberate lie, thank you
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
I see a spin off thread coming on
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The parents both claim to be 'anesthetists' and she said she was worried by the lack of response of the children.
On that basis alone, they should have rushed the children to hospital, OR got someone else to take them.
Neither happened.
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Could you provide the reports concerning that?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
A search was also made for possible biological traces and fibres on the single bed from where the minor disappeared, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, the result obtained having been negative.
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
End of the day if Kate Mccann thought her childrens lives were at risk she should have got them tested, not wait three flipping months, what a JOKE
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The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
Which shows Madeleine had no pad of chloroform or ether (immediate effect) on her nose when she was in her bed. She could have been in her parents' bed though, which I think wasn't inspected.
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Dont need any apologies from anyone here
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
Davel, do you have a link to any single person saying they saw Kate Mccann out searching that night? Any link to any police officer saying she went to speak to them? Any link to any video or paper interview Kate Mccann has done where she says she did any searching that night? Any link to any of her friendS or family saying she did that? Over four years?I bet no. What we do have is comments made that are taken that she did not search that night, but waited until light, including her own recorded ones. In their 2008 documentary Gerry was saying he insisted Kate stay home, so many witness statements say she was at home. The only reference to her doing any search that night comes only in 2011 in the book Madeleine. Thats it.
Now, police advice apprently is not to search, did the police advise the parents that night not to do this? or prevent the parents from doing this. I see nothing like that in the files.
The point is some people question why she didnt, thats all. So there shouldnt be any reason you get so indignated when people say she didnt. And wonder how a mother, even with dozens of people searching could just sit there. IMO she wrote of her search in her book to answer those questions.
And next morning after sunrise,which she says she was waiting for to go out and search, she was horrified there was no one out. Well, they had been out all flipping night! And they had no sunlight.
My reference to her not searching because it cold and dark I admit could be wrong because she mentioned it in the same breath. But the because it was dark is documented. And NO, being wrong or misconstruing something is not a deliberate lie, thank you
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
I see a spin off thread coming on
So first you admit it is untrue to say that kate did not search because it was cold and dark. That is absolutely untrue and repeated a lot on different forums. Shame people can't stick to the truth.
Kate says in her book that she searched that night.If you want to call her a liar, fair enough, but you have no proof she is lying. I have no reason to believe she is lying, no one as yet has accused her of lying about this in her book. You appear to be the first, about one year after it was written.
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Which shows Madeleine had no pad of chloroform or ether (immediate effect) on her nose when she was in her bed. She could have been in her parents' bed though, which I think wasn't inspected.
Thats right, which suspicion is confirmed by Kate Mccann saying in a bbc interview, you dont expect your child tobe taken out of your bed
>@@(*&)
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Which shows Madeleine had no pad of chloroform or ether (immediate effect) on her nose when she was in her bed. She could have been in her parents' bed though, which I think wasn't inspected.
these things leave a very strong aftersmell and have therefore been discounted.
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So first you admit it is untrue to say that kate did not search because it was cold and dark. That is absolutely untrue and repeated a lot on different forums. Shame people can't stick to the truth.
Kate says in her book that she searched that night.If you want to call her a liar, fair enough, but you have no proof she is lying. I have no reason to believe she is lying, no one as yet has accused her of lying about this in her book. You appear to be the first, about one year after it was written.
Poor answer and proof you did NOT read or reflect on my post,Or you have an inability to read, oh well, your loss, read it AGAIN and rebutt all the points
Dont need any apologies from anyone here
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
Davel, do you have a link to any single person saying they saw Kate Mccann out searching that night? Any link to any police officer saying she went to speak to them? Any link to any video or paper interview Kate Mccann has done where she says she did any searching that night? Any link to any of her friendS or family saying she did that? Over four years?I bet no. What we do have is comments made that are taken that she did not search that night, but waited until light, including her own recorded ones. In their 2008 documentary Gerry was saying he insisted Kate stay home, so many witness statements say she was at home. The only reference to her doing any search that night comes only in 2011 in the book Madeleine. Thats it.
Now, police advice apprently is not to search, did the police advise the parents that night not to do this? or prevent the parents from doing this. I see nothing like that in the files.
The point is some people question why she didnt, thats all. So there shouldnt be any reason you get so indignated when people say she didnt. And wonder how a mother, even with dozens of people searching could just sit there. IMO she wrote of her search in her book to answer those questions.
And next morning after sunrise,which she says she was waiting for to go out and search, she was horrified there was no one out. Well, they had been out all flipping night! And they had no sunlight.
My reference to her not searching because it cold and dark I admit could be wrong because she mentioned it in the same breath. But the because it was dark is documented. And NO, being wrong or misconstruing something is not a deliberate lie, thank you
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
I see a spin off thread coming on
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'....did not physically search for Madeleine...'
what a ridiculous post...half a sentence. Do you have any understanding of the word context. No wonder you have everything back to front
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what a ridiculous post...half a sentence. Do you have any understanding of the word context. No wonder you have everything back to front
And you have not provided any proof in antwayshape or form that Kate looked for her kid that night,have you?
Oh and her book doesnt count
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The parents both claim to be 'anesthetists' and she said she was worried by the lack of response of the children.
On that basis alone, they should have rushed the children to hospital, OR got someone else to take them.
Neither happened.
so now you are giving medical opinion.It has about as much logic as the rest of your opinions. She may have initially been worried about the twins, but after a quick exam she would have been reassured they were ok
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so now you are giving medical opinion.It has about as much logic as the rest of your opinions. She may have initially been worried about the twins, but after a quick exam she would have been reassured they were ok
Quick exam???
@)(++(*
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And you have not provided any proof in antwayshape or form that Kate looked for her kid that night,have you?
Oh and her book doesnt count
I don't need to provide proof. as I said ,if you read my post...if you want to disbelieve Kate....doesn't matter...it is of no consequence. The important thing is that SY believe her.
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Dont need any apologies from anyone here
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
Davel, do you have a link to any single person saying they saw Kate Mccann out searching that night? Any link to any police officer saying she went to speak to them? Any link to any video or paper interview Kate Mccann has done where she says she did any searching that night? Any link to any of her friendS or family saying she did that? Over four years?I bet no. What we do have is comments made that are taken that she did not search that night, but waited until light, including her own recorded ones. In their 2008 documentary Gerry was saying he insisted Kate stay home, so many witness statements say she was at home. The only reference to her doing any search that night comes only in 2011 in the book Madeleine. Thats it.
Now, police advice apprently is not to search, did the police advise the parents that night not to do this? or prevent the parents from doing this. I see nothing like that in the files.
The point is some people question why she didnt, thats all. So there shouldnt be any reason you get so indignated when people say she didnt. And wonder how a mother, even with dozens of people searching could just sit there. IMO she wrote of her search in her book to answer those questions.
And next morning after sunrise,which she says she was waiting for to go out and search, she was horrified there was no one out. Well, they had been out all flipping night! And they had no sunlight.
My reference to her not searching because it cold and dark I admit could be wrong because she mentioned it in the same breath. But the because it was dark is documented. And NO, being wrong or misconstruing something is not a deliberate lie, thank you
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
I see a spin off thread coming on
Thanks for that informative reply, Redblossom. There's no report of Mrs McCann wanting to search and being dissuaded from doing it. There's no report of Mr McCann searching as well. In September, Mr McCann was asked by the PJ why he didn't search and he only said he went to the main reception to call the police (where he wasn't seen btw).
This attitude of both McCanns surprised witnesses, as did their imperative wish to see a priest. Joining the dots it sounds as if Madeleine's fate was in God's hand.
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I don't need to provide proof. as I said ,if you read my post...if you want to disbelieve Kate....doesn't matter...it is of no consequence. The important thing is that SY believe her.
Sure, the Yard believes she didn't abduct her daughter !
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Thanks for that informative reply, Redblossom. There's no report of Mrs McCann wanting to search and being dissuaded from doing it. There's no report of Mr McCann searching as well. In September, Mr McCann was asked by the PJ why he didn't search and he only said he went to the main reception to call the police (where he wasn't seen btw).
This attitude of both McCanns surprised witnesses, as did their imperative wish to see a priest. Joining the dots it sounds as if Madeleine's fate was in God's hand.
This is another thing Amaral got wrong. in the UK people see a priest when they need help , prayer, not just when someone has died
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Quick exam???
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Fortunately Mrs McCann is more responsible than Davel thinks ! She checked their breathing because she knew the risk was there.
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I don't need to provide proof. as I said ,if you read my post...if you want to disbelieve Kate....doesn't matter...it is of no consequence. The important thing is that SY believe her.
LOL if you insist she went out searching that night yes you DO need to provide proof and Kates book is not proof, infact it is a record of her wild exagerations and untruths, ..bless your little cotton socks though
TheBULK of the evidence over YEARS from a whole host of people shows she did NOT, you have not a scintilla of an argument here
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The first person to admire the need of a priest was Mrs Batista. She was the go-between, so caught an important component of communication : the intonation of the voice.
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of course all this could have been avoided if the mcanns were not so keen on getting into their friends..... no matter what did happen
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About the lack of physical search, the taped interview with JH shows a revealing embarrassment. No comment needed.
"Madeleine" seems to have been conceived to correct all their mistakes. But documents like Mr McCann's blog will never be erased.
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of course all this could have been avoided if the mcanns were not so keen on getting into their friends..... no matter what did happen
What does that mean??
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I don't need to provide proof. as I said ,if you read my post...if you want to disbelieve Kate....doesn't matter...it is of no consequence. The important thing is that SY believe her.
You think sy read her book? Lol
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What does that mean??
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what i mean is with the whole neglect issue if they had stayed home instead of going to party with their friends ( their version) no matter what did happen to maddie if she hadent been left alone/whatever did happen none of us would still be talking about this 6 years later its down to the mcanns actions that night no matter what did happen i think the twins may have been sedated because of how drowsy they were that is not normal for 2 year olds
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Thanks for that informative reply, Redblossom. There's no report of Mrs McCann wanting to search and being dissuaded from doing it. There's no report of Mr McCann searching as well. In September, Mr McCann was asked by the PJ why he didn't search and he only said he went to the main reception to call the police (where he wasn't seen btw).
This attitude of both McCanns surprised witnesses, as did their imperative wish to see a priest. Joining the dots it sounds as if Madeleine's fate was in God's hand.
There is a few corroborations of gerry being out that night, NONE for Kate, not one
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Yes, like Kate asking her auntie that night to cancel the tescos online shop delivery for Saturday! great priority over doing something to get her twins checked out if she was looking for signs of life! as she says.
Or ringing her friends family and priest in the UK as if they was going to help find Maddie.Meanwhile never going out to look because it was too cold and dark! Some posts do take the biscuit here sometimes.
I don't have proof that Kate went out to search...she says she did...
I do however have proof that Redblossom tells lies...see above...
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what i mean is with the whole neglect issue if they had stayed home instead of going to party with their friends ( their version) no matter what did happen to maddie if she hadent been left alone/whatever did happen none of us would still be talking about this 6 years later its down to the mcanns actions that night no matter what did happen i think the twins may have been sedated because of how drowsy they were that is not normal for 2 year olds
OK Carly, thanks for explaining
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I don't have proof that Kate went out to search...she says she did...
I do however have proof that Redblossom tells lies...see above...
Aww, feel beat? Never mind
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And if you have no proof she searched you shouldnt say she did( just based on hef own word, which has been proven to be lies in the past,) and people who say she didnt are liars
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You think sy read her book? Lol
I observed my suggestion to a SY officer they'd read the book was as quirky as an advice to read Jamie Oliver's Little Book of Big Treats !
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dont you find it odd that 2 year old norma healthy twins would sleep though so much supposed chaos??
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I observed my suggestion to a SY officer they'd read the book was as quirky as an advice to read Jamie Oliver's Little Book of Big Treats !
@)(++(*
c u bit later
I think we can put the myth to bed now that Kate Mccann did any searching that night....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for it
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dont you find it odd that 2 year old norma healthy twins would sleep though so much supposed chaos??
On that front no, I have held a raucous party and my 1 yr old slept right through it
What is odd is Kate Mccann checking for signs of life and thinking her kids might have been drugged and did sod all about it, and that...is.... Sod all...that night and all other days....they could have had anything in their system...then again...she LEFT them on discovering Madeleine not there, with doors and windows open again to run to the tapas bar, she obviously didnt think they were at risk from any still lying about abductor
Which tells me she knew there was none
Pffft
and there is no evidence whatsoever anywhere that she asked police that night about drugs, its just her word, and the word of an ex arguido is not to be taken as any truth
not to mention the absolute nonsense of her asking three months later the pj to test her kids cos she remembers them sleeping and reading it could be a sign of sedation from some crime manual!!!!
Purleese
Anyway carly, post more, dontbe intimidated by bullies, people on their moral highhorses etc catch u later
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@)(++(*
c u bit later
I think we can put the myth to bed now that Kate Mccann did any searching that night....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for it
There certainly is evidence, but no proof. You don't understand the difference. This comes as no surprise.
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So first you admit it is untrue to say that kate did not search because it was cold and dark. That is absolutely untrue and repeated a lot on different forums. Shame people can't stick to the truth.
Kate says in her book that she searched that night.If you want to call her a liar, fair enough, but you have no proof she is lying. I have no reason to believe she is lying, no one as yet has accused her of lying about this in her book. You appear to be the first, about one year after it was written.
Yet again.
Merely because it states something in a book, it doesn't mean it's true.
On your logic if I wrote a book and in it claimed I was a gynecologist, wquld it be true ???
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There's evidence that, observing there was no evidence of her search, as in fact she stayed at home, Mrs McCann tried to rewrite history in "Madeleine".
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Yet again.
Merely because it states something in a book, it doesn't mean it's true.
On your logic if I wrote a book and in it claimed I was a gynecologist, wquld it be true ???
I am starting to wonder what type of people I am in discussion with. Can't you understand the written word. Where did I say it was true. I said there was evidence but no proof.
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Yet again.
Merely because it states something in a book, it doesn't mean it's true.
On your logic if I wrote a book and in it claimed I was a gynecologist, wquld it be true ???
as you can't spell the word it would not be very convincing.
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let me help you a little,
If it came to court, kate would give evidence. Her testimony would be considered EVIDENCE
Just to repeat...EVIDENCE
That is not the same as proof. have you got it yet.
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Luz say's 4 months Paiva says 3.
You are wrong Faith. If Paiva say's they asked for testing 3 months after Madeleine was abducted, they had not been made arguidos.
No matter how you look at it, it was not the McCann's place to get testing done. It was down to the PJ. If Amaral was so sure, why didn't he get them tested? He didn't need their permission, he could have got a court order, if needed, which I doubt he would have.
You are right DCI. Kate did ask for tests to be done several months later when Gerry was away. He then canceled them as soon as he got back.
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This is another thing Amaral got wrong. in the UK people see a priest when they need help , prayer, not just when someone has died
Yes, in some cultures, a priest or pastor is not necessarily some lofty being only to be seen on days of reverence, but someone who offers more pastoral support and can often be considered as a family friend.
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You are right DCI. Kate did ask for tests to be done several months later when Gerry was away. He then canceled them as soon as he got back.
Do you have a source for this cancellation, Faith?
Makes no odds anyway, its still the police's job to do them not the child's parents.
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The first person to admire the need of a priest was Mrs Batista. She was the go-between, so caught an important component of communication : the intonation of the voice.
Nothing wrong with that, its their faith!
A GNR officer, was also asked. But he couldn't find one!
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There is nothing to ignore.
She had every opportunity to revise the book, she didn't.
Meanwhile, what about the thread topic.
There is no excuse under the sun for not having the children tested. NOT ONE.
Why would she need to revise her book? She was describing how she felt at that particular time - and nowhere in her book or anywhere else has she shown anything but gratitude for the support they received from the locals.
The question of whether the twins had been drugged was part of the case. The Pj were in charge of the case not the McCanns. The police were told of Kate and Gerry's concerns - and they chose to do nothing about it.
Please provide proof that they could have walked into a hospital without authority from the police and demanded a drugs test on children who were part of a police enquiry in which drugs may have been used. Or alternatively use your common sense.
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Why would she need to revise her book? She was describing how she felt at that particular time - and nowhere in her book or anywhere else has she shown anything but gratitude for the support they received from the locals.
The question of whether the twins had been drugged was part of the case. The Pj were in charge of the case not the McCanns. The police were told of Kate and Gerry's concerns - and they chose to do nothing about it.
Please provide proof that they could have walked into a hospital without authority from the police and demanded a drugs test on children who were part of a police enquiry in which drugs may have been used. Or alternatively use your common sense.
Ridiculous! if you take a child to a hospital and say I suspext x y z has happened, of course they will check!Especially if it is considered life threatening. Since WHEN have YOU gone into accident and emergency and theyrequired a letter from anyone to treat your child.
Oh and Davel, KM saying something four years after an event is not evidence! Talk about stretching the truth. There IS no evidence she was running around looking for Madeleine, ie there is absolutely nothng and nobody that can back that up.
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Yet again.
Merely because it states something in a book, it doesn't mean it's true.On your logic if I wrote a book and in it claimed I was a gynecologist, wquld it be true ???
But on this very thread you quoted from Kate's book to prove a point. Why do that if you don't believe a word she says in it. Make your mind up Stephen.
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Do you have a source for this cancellation, Faith?
Makes no odds anyway, its still the police's job to do them not the child's parents.
It's also the police's job to steer the investigation not the parents. Reconstruction anyone ?
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It's also the police's job to steer the investigation not the parents. Reconstruction anyone ?
No source/link to Gerry cancelling tests then?
Ask Amaral, seems he didn't want a recontruction, when it mattered. I can never understand why though. His excuse too many journalists, doesn't cut the mustard.
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Ridiculous! if you take a child to a hospital and say I suspext x y z has happened, of course they will check!Especially if it is considered life threatening. Since WHEN have YOU gone into accident and emergency and theyrequired a letter from anyone to treat your child.
Oh and Davel, KM saying something four years after an event is not evidence! Talk about stretching the truth. There IS no evidence she was running around looking for Madeleine, ie there is absolutely nothng and nobody that can back that up.
I suspect that if the same had happened in the UK - the police would have immediately arranged to have the twins checked out - once the parents expressed concern. They would not have all gone home as the Pj did - and left the parents not knowing what was happening - and then done nothing.
There is no evidence either that Kate did not go out looking for Madeleine. You just choose to believe it because you want to. The GNR officers she spoke to first - before she set off would know, but as there is no witness statement signed in blood from them saying that - you can carry on choosing to disbelieve it. Your prerogative.
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I suspect that if the same had happened in the UK - the police would have immediately arranged to have the twins checked out - once the parents expressed concern. They would not have all gone home as the Pj did - and left the parents not knowing what was happening - and then done nothing.
There is no evidence either that Kate did not go out looking for Madeleine. You just choose to believe it because you want to. The GNR officers she spoke to first - before she set off would know, but as there is no witness statement signed in blood from them saying that - you can carry on choosing to disbelieve it. Your prerogative.
No evidence they did say anything to the police whatsoever on that night or any other time,express concern for twins or askfor tests,until three months later, zilch, not gerrys or any one elses testimony, not kates, either, nothing in their statements at all, not interviews, or chats with friends and famioy, nothing,until woopy doo four years later Kate pens it, so must be true
No evidence Kate searched either, in fact the opposite is true,people said she stayed in the flat....your perogative to believe her on her word ONLY
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They would not have all gone home as the Pj did - and left the parents not knowing what was happening - and then done nothing.
Really? Think you will find that's another myth.
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as you can't spell the word it would not be very convincing.
Nit picking. The spelling I gave was indicated as being incorrect on this system.
Please try again.
Can we return to the discussion ?
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No evidence they did say anything to the police whatsoever on that night or any other time,express concern for twins or askfor tests,until three months later, zilch, not gerrys or any one elses testimony, not kates, either, nothing in their statements at all, not interviews, or chats with friends and famioy, nothing,until woopy doo four years later Kate pens it, so must be true
No evidence Kate searched either, in fact the opposite is true,people said she stayed in the flat....your perogative to believe her on her word ONLY
Mrs Payne, who so generously stayed in the flat with Mrs McCann, doesn't mention any searching. Actually I think Dr McCann wouldn't have left her twins without regular check she had some reason to practise.
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Mrs Payne, who so generously stayed in the flat with Mrs McCann, doesn't mention any searching. Actually I think Dr McCann wouldn't have left her twins without regular check she had some reason to practise.
No, she didnt, as I said, not a single soul ever did. IMO she just wrote that to deal with criticisms that she never did. As for the asking police that night re drugs and other days in the coming weeks as said in the book and they did nothing, I find that very hard to believe and IMO is nothing more than another attempt to criticise them ....whats new, it began on the night of the disappearance!
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Poor answer and proof you did NOT read or reflect on my post,Or you have an inability to read, oh well, your loss, read it AGAIN and rebutt all the points
Dont need any apologies from anyone here
Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.
It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
Davel, do you have a link to any single person saying they saw Kate Mccann out searching that night? Any link to any police officer saying she went to speak to them? Any link to any video or paper interview Kate Mccann has done where she says she did any searching that night? Any link to any of her friendS or family saying she did that? Over four years?I bet no. What we do have is comments made that are taken that she did not search that night, but waited until light, including her own recorded ones. In their 2008 documentary Gerry was saying he insisted Kate stay home, so many witness statements say she was at home. The only reference to her doing any search that night comes only in 2011 in the book Madeleine. Thats it.
Now, police advice apprently is not to search, did the police advise the parents that night not to do this? or prevent the parents from doing this. I see nothing like that in the files.
The point is some people question why she didnt, thats all. So there shouldnt be any reason you get so indignated when people say she didnt. And wonder how a mother, even with dozens of people searching could just sit there. IMO she wrote of her search in her book to answer those questions.
And next morning after sunrise,which she says she was waiting for to go out and search, she was horrified there was no one out. Well, they had been out all flipping night! And they had no sunlight.
My reference to her not searching because it cold and dark I admit could be wrong because she mentioned it in the same breath. But the because it was dark is documented. And NO, being wrong or misconstruing something is not a deliberate lie, thank you
Mrs McCann stayed in a bedroom praying. She said: “It was really cold. I knew what pyjamas she had on and I just thought she’s going to be freezing. And it was just dark and dark and every minute seemed like an hour.
“Obviously, we were up all night and just waited for the first bit of light at six o’clock.”
Mr McCann added: “And then we went out searching, the two of us. We were saying over and over again just let her be found, let her be found.”
Taken from their ITV documentary 2008
I see a spin off thread coming on
So Fiona was the only woman to search, you say?
Why do you think that was Red?
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No, they are not my words, they come from a PJ report as linked, do keep up
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No, they are not my words, they come from a PJ report as linked, do keep up
Interesting!
So lies, yet again, and in an ACTUAL PJ report.
Bias!
That is even worse than you getting it wrong Red
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Interesting!
So lies, yet again, and in an ACTUAL PJ report.
Bias!
That is even worse than you getting it wrong Red
and your evidence the PJ lied is?