Why do you think the case of a missing child should invoke such hatred?
Why do you think the case of a missing child should invoke such hatred?
Why do you think the case of a missing child should invoke such hatred?
That is quite an admission...it does invoke hatred...absolute hatred....I have some ideas but I dare not share them...hatred starts with bitterness
Why do you think the case of a missing child should invoke such hatred?
Anyone ?
Anyone ?What I've noticed is that it appears to be class related. People of the working class would not be allowed to get away with leaving their kids while they go drinking something like that, so they feel the McCanns are given special treatment because of their status. But the McCanns are just down to earth people who went and became doctors.
What I've noticed is that it appears to be class related. People of the working class would not be allowed to get away with leaving their kids while they go drinking something like that, so they feel the McCanns are given special treatment because of their status. But the McCanns are just down to earth people who went and became doctors.
While England continues with class society this will happen.
I believe there is resentment that Madeleine's parents have not been punished.And then the problem occurred in Portugal which needs the tourist trade so they are not going to punish parents who leave the kids in the apartments if they make some attempt to check on them (undetermined frequency).
You are quite right to suggest that the "class" issue has played an important part in this.
However the McCanns are working class who became doctors and now they are viewed as" middle class" who got away with leaving their children .
This class business has always been confusing.
And then the problem occurred in Portugal which needs the tourist trade so they are not going to punish parents who leave the kids in the apartments if they make some attempt to check on them (undetermined frequency).
So instead of punishing all the parents of the children in order to protect their tourist industry, they then go on to accuse one set of parents of faking an abduction and getting rid of their childs body.I don't see that as a source of hatred. Even working class people might resort to that i.e. "faking an abduction and getting rid of their child's body". I think it is those accusations that make people question the competence of the PJ.
Is this accusation the reason for the hatred?
I don't see that as a source of hatred. Even working class people might resort to that i.e. "faking an abduction and getting rid of their child's body". I think it is those accusations that make people question the competence of the PJ.
So then you bring out the racial aspect of how do the Portuguese and the English really relate to each other. We don't have many Portuguese in NZ so I don't have a prejudice. But England and Portugal have a long history of conflict, really, in fact you have a Treaty to keep the peace.
I believe the peace treaty has been established as one of these longest in history.
Sorry Rob but I don't see any reason why any of this contributes to the hatred of Madeleine's parents.
So instead of punishing all the parents of the children in order to protect their tourist industry, they then go on to accuse one set of parents of faking an abduction and getting rid of their childs body.
Is this accusation the reason for the hatred?
I believe the peace treaty has been established as one of these longest in history.I didn't say it did. There is the hatred for the McCanns which IMO is predominantly class related.
Sorry Rob but I don't see any reason why any of this contributes to the hatred of Madeleine's parents.
Blimey, there's a turn up for the book.
I agree; and with the sentiment of the rest apart from "hatred". I fail to understand how one can hate a person with whom one is unaquainted. One may not like their principles articulated or inferred, the way they conduct themselves as shown on telly etc. but until you are close up and personal real hatred would seem to me to not be possible. Hatred seems to be used as a pseudonym for mobbish yobbish behaviour in this context which is something quite different and I doubt there is a common denominator apart from yobbish mobbish which sadly affects both sides of this debate.
You and I both fail to understand how one can hate a person with whom one is unaquainted.Who is hating "a person with whom one is unacquainted"? But plenty dislike the way the PJ handled the case.
But it seems to be thus!
I didn't say it did. There is the hatred for the McCanns which IMO is predominantly class related.
And there are those who don't like the way the PJ handled the case (the people with this view are probably "supporters" IMO.
I'm not convinced it is all class related.All those could have a part to play but personally you are the first to suggest to me that anyone hates the McCanns because they supported the wrong football club, but in the UK anything is possible I suppose.
Here in Scotland class is not the biggest divide.
I'm sorry to say that it is religion.
The McCanns did themselves no favour in becoming associated with Celtic football club and thereby alienating themselves from some in the community.
I remember when sceptics on another forum were urged to write to their MPs about this case and the numbers of letters were shown on a map of the UK.
The highest number of letters to MPs in Scotland were recorded in areas where sectarianism against Catholics was deeply rooted.
The antipathy towards the family of a missing child is in my opinion a very mixed bag
All those could have a part to play but personally you are the first to suggest to me that anyone hates the McCanns because they supported the wrong football club, but in the UK anything is possible I suppose.
It's not the football club, it's the sectarianism which exists if one identifies oneself with either club.Yes, I understand that but do you ever get someone saying that publicly on social media? I've never seen that myself.
Yes, I understand that but do you ever get someone saying that publicly on social media? I've never seen that myself.
I'm sure it has been.Cut and paste it if you do then please.
Every possibility for the hatred of the parents of Madeleine has been explored.
I don't mean the discussion or questioning about the disappearance which is the norm for this forum but elsewhere hatred is apparent.
Yes, I understand that but do you ever get someone saying that publicly on social media? I've never seen that myself.
It used to be painted on bridges.There is even a book about it "https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137468956_9" "Film, History and Memory" by James Ward.
"Remember 1688"
That was when the Dutch invaded England and put William of Orange[protestant] on the English throne in place of James II [catholic] leading to 330 years of aggro. Oversimplified but that is the gist.
I'm not convinced it is all class related.
Here in Scotland class is not the biggest divide.
I'm sorry to say that it is religion.
The McCanns did themselves no favour in becoming associated with Celtic football club and thereby alienating themselves from some in the community.
I remember when sceptics on another forum were urged to write to their MPs about this case and the numbers of letters were shown on a map of the UK.
The highest number of letters to MPs in Scotland were recorded in areas where sectarianism against Catholics was deeply rooted.
The antipathy towards the family of a missing child is in my opinion a very mixed bag
That's something I never even considered; that sectarianism might still be affecting people's outlooks. That explains why the word 'hate' is used, because they know all about that don't they? Hating each other simply because they belong to different religious denominations. It also explains why I thought I recognised signs of bigotry here and there, because that's what sectarianism really is.
I saw it in action when I was growing up and I decided as a teenager that I didn't want to be associated with it. How could people who saw themselves as Christians be so scathing, bitter and hateful towards others? How could they see themselves as superior when they were filled with hate? Bigots pure and simple.
All those could have a part to play but personally you are the first to suggest to me that anyone hates the McCanns because they supported the wrong football club, but in the UK anything is possible I suppose.I have seen lots of anti-McCann sentiment posted by Liverpool fans too, of course yhe McCanns are Everton supporters so that would explain some of that bile.
That's something I never even considered; that sectarianism might still be affecting people's outlooks. That explains why the word 'hate' is used, because they know all about that don't they? Hating each other simply because they belong to different religious denominations. It also explains why I thought I recognised signs of bigotry here and there, because that's what sectarianism really is.
I saw it in action when I was growing up and I decided as a teenager that I didn't want to be associated with it. How could people who saw themselves as Christians be so scathing, bitter and hateful towards others? How could they see themselves as superior when they were filled with hate? Bigots pure and simple.
I have seen lots of anti-McCann sentiment posted by Liverpool fans too, of course yhe McCanns are Everton supporters so that would explain some of that bile.
Good point, there is a significant Scottish element to the case, do those arguing from north of the border fall into sectarian roles and use the associated language? It would cause problems for those not used to it.
Yes, another city where religious divisions remain. Anyone who supports or opposes them based on such an irrelevance is very sad imo.
I certainly don't.
What I do find is that sectarianism against the McCanns does exist by some but then suddenly the sectarianism evaporates when Amaral is being lauded.
Is there sectarianism south of the border?
I think you're missing the point. Sectarianism isn't just about religious differences, as I realised when I studied the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Good point, there is a significant Scottish element to the case, do those arguing from north of the border fall into sectarian roles and use the associated language? It would cause problems for those not used to it.
The history of Northern Ireland is very different from here.
Although there is no doubt that the troubles there have made ripples here.
Here I believe much of the sectarianism is football based.
The strong links between Northern Ireland and Glasgow in particular suggest that the football is based on sectarianism, not vice versa imo.
I certainly don't.
What I do find is that sectarianism against the McCanns does exist by some but then suddenly the sectarianism evaporates when Amaral is being lauded.
Is there sectarianism south of the border?
I have seen lots of anti-McCann sentiment posted by Liverpool fans too, of course yhe McCanns are Everton supporters so that would explain some of that bile.
Perhaps that’s more to do with the McCanns close relationship to the Murdoch empire.I doubt it. I think it’s far more likely to do with a long-standing rivalry between the two local teams.
I doubt it. I think it’s far more likely to do with a long-standing rivalry between the two local teams.
I doubt it. I think it’s far more likely to do with a long-standing rivalry between the two local teams.
And nothing to do with them selling their souls to a newspaper that is all but outlawed in Liverpool? Okaaaay !If the paper is outlawed there and no one reads it, they wouldn’t even know about the McCanns “selling their souls”to it would they.., 8(0(*
Very little.
If the paper is outlawed there and no one reads it, they wouldn’t even know about the McCanns “selling their souls”to it would they.., 8(0(*
ETA I take it Liverpool fans boycott Sky Sport as well?
When I was a child it existed because everything in our village was segregated. School, entertainment and even playmates. I was expected to play with those who had the same religion as me and to marry a man of the same religion. Those prejudices were rejected by most of my generation.
Fortunately those prejudices have also been rejected by most here .
Fortunately those prejudices have also been rejected by most here .
It was all over the news.What was? The the McCanns sold their souls to Murdoch?
And yet you brought up the possibility of Scottish sectarianism influencing opinions of the McCanns.
Yes.
There are still pockets of bigotry.
But the bigotry that existed years ago which stopped people making progress in their careers or even prevented them being employed in certain occupations has gone.
That's something I never even considered; that sectarianism might still be affecting people's outlooks. That explains why the word 'hate' is used, because they know all about that don't they? Hating each other simply because they belong to different religious denominations. It also explains why I thought I recognised signs of bigotry here and there, because that's what sectarianism really is.I believe I have heard it said that there is at least one leading sceptic who professes Christian values?
I saw it in action when I was growing up and I decided as a teenager that I didn't want to be associated with it. How could people who saw themselves as Christians be so scathing, bitter and hateful towards others? How could they see themselves as superior when they were filled with hate? Bigots pure and simple.
I believe I have heard it said that there is at least one leading sceptic who professes Christian values?
Who is hating "a person with whom one is unacquainted"? But plenty dislike the way the PJ handled the case.
Is there sectarianism south of the border?
Ask why theres been no catholic monarch since Jame's and you have your answer.
That the McCanns had sold the rights to Kate’s book to the Sun.Wasn't that only the serialisation of the book to the Sun? Cite please for your claim Faithlilly. Offending post has been deleted, so don't bother now.
That the McCanns had sold the rights to Kate’s book to the Sun.So do Liverpool supporters hate everyone who appears in the Sun, by association?
I believe there is resentment that Madeleine's parents have not been punished.
You are quite right to suggest that the "class" issue has played an important part in this.
However the McCanns are working class who became doctors and now they are viewed as" middle class" who got away with leaving their children .
This class business has always been confusing.
So do Liverpool supporters hate everyone who appears in the Sun, by association?
Not Liverpool supporters, Liverpool in general and no they don’t, just individuals who sell there soul to them.Define “sell there (sic) soul”. Have you other examples of individuals who Liverpudlians now hate for selling “there” soul to the Murdoch devil?
Isn't education a wonderful thing? Is there a category of working class with a degree??
Define “sell there (sic) soul”. Have you other examples of individuals who Liverpudlians now hate for selling “there” soul to the Murdoch devil?
Define “sell there (sic) soul”. Have you other examples of individuals who Liverpudlians now hate for selling “there” soul to the Murdoch devil?
Did I say Liverpudlians hate the McCanns ?Well yes you did, when I asked you do Liverpool supporters hate everyone who appears in the Sun, by association, and you replied in the affirmative, that all Liverpudlians do hate those who sell “there” souls to them.
Well yes you did, when I asked you do Liverpool supporters hate everyone who appears in the Sun, by association, and you replied in the affirmative, that all Liverpudlians do hate those who sell “there” souls to them.
Wow you have me there p, and shamed me with my predictor text mistake as well.P?? Who is P?? Young Man?? Who is that?? Strange post.
Well done you young man @)(++(*
Sectarianism played a part. Sectarianism is accentuated by local football teams, dialects, mannerisms, history, religion, maybe even looks and family names.
I take it you have researched back to 2000 when Gerry was Celtic's doctor?No in fact I never knew the vital piece of information, How did they do that year? Did any of the team go AWOL?
Isn't education a wonderful thing? Is there a category of working class with a degree??
There's many working class people with degrees and professional careers. All are middle-class by income but not all embrace middle-class values.
There's many working class people with degrees and professional careers. All are middle-class by income but not all embrace middle-class values.
I take it you have researched back to 2000 when Gerry was Celtic's doctor?
Is that true? All evidence of it seems to have disappeared.
Well according to Amaral, the McCanns are upper middle class. *%87
On a thread elsewhere on the forum.
I still find it all a mystery.
I fear Amaral doesn't understand the intricacies of the British class system.
I fear Amaral doesn't understand the intricacies of the British class system.Portugal would have a type of class system too though wouldn't it?
I don't either!Sorry but once again I am struggling to get the meaning of what you are saying.
I take it you have researched back to 2000 when Gerry was Celtic's doctor?
When I was young the Churches loomed large in everyone's lives. Now they're irrelevant in most people's lives. It seems surreal to be discussing whether sectarianism had a part to play in the divisions over the McCann case, but there are similarities.
One shouldn't do this as it is frighfully infra dig old top but "Talk Celtic.net" has some interesting views expressed thereon.
I suppose the scuttlebutt will be that it's really a bunch of Glasgow Rangers or Heart of Midlothian supporters making trouble ?{)(**
A sweeping statement to make.
Not irrelevant in mine or many of my family and friends.
I find it interesting that even in countries such as Russia where religion was allegedly irradicated that regilious devotion seems to be increasing.
Ingerland. Howzat.
Not out,although Cook is hanging up his bat.
Who's Cook? I am not frightfully up on Football or Cricket. Although I have been known to watch a bit of Rugby.
I once saw The All Blacks wipe the floor with The Royal Navy, and being ex Navy myself, one would know whose side I was on. But it was done with such grace and glory that I instantly forgave The All Blacks forever.
You've never heard of Alistair Cooke?
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/alastair-cook-retires-former-england-captain-to-call-time-on-international-career-after-india-test-a3926061.html
I don't follow cricket but I do watch international rugby occasionally and I love seeing the All Blacks do the haka.
On topic. I don't believe there is any sectarianism in the McCann case but of course that is my opinion only.
Sectarianism is related to tribalism. Loyalty to the 'tribe' is paramount and affects how members behave towards those perceived as belonging to the opposing 'tribe'.
n extreme cases where segregation has existed, such as Northern Ireland, the opposition are actually hated. Not because of any personal shortcomings, because the two sides don't know each other personally. They are hated just because of their membership of the opposing 'tribe'.
Tribalism overrides reason and I have seen this in the McCann divide. Not all those who disbelieve the McCann's story 'hate' them, nor do they abuse them, nor are they part of a group. They are, however, accused of all those things. They are labelled 'sceptics' and 'trolls' in order to suggest a group identity exists, in my opinion.
https://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/how-tribalism-overrules-reason-and-makes-risky-times-more-dangerous
I often wonder if you were to take the McCanns out of the equation how well we’d get on ?
Probably quite well.
Probably quite well..
Scoring points by referring to other forums, blogs and Twitter doesn't help either. If we can all agree that what happens here has nothing to do with what happens elsewhere we could eliminate those arguments and accusations.
We might even be able to build a forum which debates the facts of the case in a mature and reasonable manner. That would be an achievement we could all be proud of in my opinion.
“Imagine all the people living life in peace, yoo ooo
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one, will be as one”
Ah yes! Imagine no possessions said the man who had an air con'd apartment in which to keep his furs.
You cynic you!
What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take
The world and all its got And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score..........
There's a long way to go but I'm hopeful. I remember meeting a US Army company here on an exchange visit from Texas in the late 1960's. They had to share the NAAFI facilities with their hosts; a Scottish Regiment. The Americans had segregation in their PX then, so they weren't happy if a black man got served before a white man. The Scots saw the NAAFI as theirs so they wanted to be served before anyone else. The atmosphere was tense and scuffles did break out. The Scots won the exercise they went on though; the Yanks said they'd rather go back to Vietnam than go out on exercise with the (unarmed) Scots again.
There is a programme on Channel 4 tonight entitled "Massacre at Ballymurphy" which recalled to mind what I believe was one of the most shameful incidents to take place in modern times on British soil.
I travelled South in a train from Belfast packed with Catholics fleeing to refugee camps in Eire after being burned out of their homes overnight ... people were in their night clothes and slippers carrying all they were able to rescue from their burning homes which for many consisted of their children and their old and infirm.
Protestants living in Catholic areas were warned to decamp and there was a similar exodus of refugees in the opposite direction although many took the choice to burn their own homes on leaving.
That is an example of tribalism and sectarianism which I experienced and although only an observer it was an event which shook me to the core and I firmly believe that insidious sectarianism is a factor in Madeleine's case of which I think many practitioners would fail to recognise in themselves.
Oh that is horrible Brietta. I have just read about the deaths and that it was called Bloody Sunday which I have heard of in relation to the troubles in Northern Ireland.
I fail to see though how it relates to Madeleine's case. Could you explain in what way you mean sectarianism in regard to Madeleine's disappearance. Is it along religious grounds or something else?
Did you miss the bit "I firmly believe that insidious sectarianism is a factor in Madeleine's case of which I think many practitioners would fail to recognise in themselves." and in my opinion it relates as much to Madeleine's case as does the post to which I replied both of which are anecdotes on sectarianism.
I initially thought so too but I have found that sceptics and supporters can be members of both sides of the religious divide.
I initially thought so too but I have found that sceptics and supporters can be members of both sides of the religious divide.
I initially thought so too but I have found that sceptics and supporters can be members of both sides of the religious divide.
Sectarianism is not always expressed in vile and abusive language.
Some of the internet posting relating to Madeleine's disappearance has more than a whiff of anti Catholic bias.
I often wonder if Madeleine had been the daughter of a Jewish or Muslim couple would their faith have been mocked and ridiculed in quite the same manner as has been the case with the McCanns.
I'm glad you wrote can be,I have no religious affiliation to any thing,well save money perhaps.
What made you think it was specifically anti Catholic?
Sectarianism is not always expressed in vile and abusive language.If they’d been Jewish in my opinion they would have, but in such a case prosecutions might actually have been successfully brought, for hate crimes of an anti semitic nature.
Some of the internet posting relating to Madeleine's disappearance has more than a whiff of anti Catholic bias.
I often wonder if Madeleine had been the daughter of a Jewish or Muslim couple would their faith have been mocked and ridiculed in quite the same manner as has been the case with the McCanns.
I'm glad you wrote can be,I have no religious affiliation to any thing,well save money perhaps.You worship money? Or have I misunderstood your odd comment...?
You worship money? Or have I misunderstood your odd comment...?
What made you think it was specifically anti Catholic?
Sectarianism is not always expressed in vile and abusive language.
Some of the internet posting relating to Madeleine's disappearance has more than a whiff of anti Catholic bias.
I often wonder if Madeleine had been the daughter of a Jewish or Muslim couple would their faith have been mocked and ridiculed in quite the same manner as has been the case with the McCanns.
I'm glad you wrote can be,I have no religious affiliation to any thing,well save money perhaps.
I initially thought so too but I have found that sceptics and supporters can be members of both sides of the religious divide.The thread originated from a comment about sectarianism around Glasgow, and around Liverpool. Not in general.
LOL I know a few adherents of your preferred 'faith' ... I've never been able to hang onto it for long enough to be able to join though!
Erngath's post does ring a peal of bells with me but not only with regard to the dark underbelly of the internet. If I had a pound for every time Kate and Gerry's faith is mentioned by MSM I would be eligible to sit in a pew alongside Barrier counting my loot.
In a country with a religious history such as ours I think that could be subliminal perhaps? (not me counting my loot ... I wish! ... but constant reference to Kate and Gerry's faith).
The terms are never said in a pejorative manner ... but why say it at all? ... it is obviously how they are defined which in context is fine. For example is Sadiq Khan frequntly if ever described as "Muslim" or "devout Muslim" ? and if so I would imagine only in context
LOL I know a few adherents of your preferred 'faith' ... I've never been able to hang onto it for long enough to be able to join though!
Erngath's post does ring a peal of bells with me but not only with regard to the dark underbelly of the internet. If I had a pound for every time Kate and Gerry's faith is mentioned by MSM I would be eligible to sit in a pew alongside Barrier counting my loot.
In a country with a religious history such as ours I think that could be subliminal perhaps? (not me counting my loot ... I wish! ... but constant reference to Kate and Gerry's faith).
The terms are never said in a pejorative manner ... but why say it at all? ... it is obviously how they are defined which in context is fine. For example is Sadiq Khan frequntly if ever described as "Muslim" or "devout Muslim" ? and if so I would imagine only in context
I agree with you Brietta but surely the McCanns must have agreed with the media referring to their religion constantly. They have of course held publicised prayer vigils in Rothley square every year on Madeleine's birthday.
Had they wanted their religion not pushed by the media they could have held these vigils in a church where photography would surely be prohibited and privacy enabled to some extent.
A lot of very unpleasant things were said about Kate's Catholic Faith in the beginning. I never have understood this, although I suppose I should have done, growing up in London in the 40s and 50s, but it just didn't make sense to me even as a child.
Sectarian rhetoric never makes sense. To be fair though I don’t that it was Kate’s catholic faith that was ridiculed, she could have been CoE and it would still have been the same, but her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.Do you think ridiculing people for turning to god in times of great need and despair is acceptable or understandable?
For me the religion thing is unimportant. I come from the same part of Scotland as several other members and I simply don’t recognise the endemic bigotry described. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a different generation.
Sectarian rhetoric never makes sense. To be fair though I don’t that it was Kate’s catholic faith that was ridiculed, she could have been CoE and it would still have been the same, but her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.
For me the religion thing is unimportant. I come from the same part of Scotland as several other members and I simply don’t recognise the endemic bigotry described. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a different generation.
Sectarian rhetoric never makes sense. To be fair though I don’t that it was Kate’s catholic faith that was ridiculed, she could have been CoE and it would still have been the same, but her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.
For me the religion thing is unimportant. I come from the same part of Scotland as several other members and I simply don’t recognise the endemic bigotry described. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a different generation.
Sectarian rhetoric never makes sense. To be fair though I don’t that it was Kate’s catholic faith that was ridiculed, she could have been CoE and it would still have been the same, but her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.And this one's for you:
For me the religion thing is unimportant. I come from the same part of Scotland as several other members and I simply don’t recognise the endemic bigotry described. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a different generation.
Sectarian rhetoric never makes sense. To be fair though I don’t that it was Kate’s catholic faith that was ridiculed, she could have been CoE and it would still have been the same, but her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.
For me the religion thing is unimportant. I come from the same part of Scotland as several other members and I simply don’t recognise the endemic bigotry described. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a different generation.
I don't class myself as religious, albeit raised a Protestant and later becoming a Catholic in my own head. I decided to be an Agnostic. But I know what I do when the going gets a bit rough. I gabble Hail Mary's at an alarming rate, which frequently work, and not just for me.
I don't class myself as religious, albeit raised a Protestant and later becoming a Catholic in my own head. I decided to be an Agnostic. But I know what I do when the going gets a bit rough. I gabble Hail Mary's at an alarming rate, which frequently work, and not just for me.
I am also Agnostic, which means sceptic or doubter. As I'm unable to have faith in the existence of God I'm also unable to justify turning to Him 'just in case' in times of trouble.That is not my understanding of what it means to be Agnostic. IMO an Agnsotic is someone who admits they just don't know whether or not there is a God, hedging their bets in other words. Therefore it would be quite legitimate to turn to God when the 4th engine on the plane has stalled and you begin to plummet to earth.
And this one's for you:
Culture of denial over sectarianism in Scotland, report says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39179445
It seems that naming and shaming is a feature of sectarianism too;You appear to be trying to change the subject. Do you accept that sectarianism continues to be a facet of 21st Century life in the UK or not?
Dr Morrow called on the Scottish government to shift its emphasis away from historical blame.
He said the focus should be on ending the behaviours, attitudes and structures which underpinned sectarianism rather than naming and shaming any individual or group.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39179445
I am also Agnostic, which means sceptic or doubter. As I'm unable to have faith in the existence of God I'm also unable to justify turning to Him 'just in case' in times of trouble.
Do you think ridiculing people for turning to god in times of great need and despair is acceptable or understandable?
I have a friend whose father was a Church of Scotlland minister who said when hearing stories from the fishermen whom he dealt with as their chaplain, that in a small boat in a fierce storm there were no atheists.
No I don’t. I was explaining why others did.Your post doesn't really explain why they do it, only that they do do it.
Your post doesn't really explain why they do it, only that they do do it.
Your post doesn't really explain why they do it, only that they do do it.
Agnostic means Belief in a Higher Being, not necessarily a God as seen in Human Terms. Perhaps just The Universe, which suits me fine.
Hail Mary's are in my opinion are just a Mantra, but at least one I know and one that gives me hope when I need a bit of help.
No, I haven't Googled it.
Sorry, your definition is incorrect.
How can Faithlilly explain why others do something. Can you, I can't? It surely is up to those persons themselves to explain this IMO.Faithlilly said her post explained WHY others did it. I was pointing out that her post did NOT. OK?
Sunny’s post has covered this. Thank you Sunny.Except you said
Faithlilly said her post explained WHY others did it. I was pointing out that her post did NOT. OK?
‘her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.’
Clear enough now ?
You appear to be trying to change the subject. Do you accept that sectarianism continues to be a facet of 21st Century life in the UK or not?
Do you think ridiculing people for turning to god in times of great need and despair is acceptable or understandable?
‘her perceived use of that faith when her own mother said they weren’t particularly religious.’No, not really. The McCanns are ridiculed because of what Kate's mother said? Ludicrous excuse.
Clear enough now ?
Did Kate mother use those exact words?
No, not really. The McCanns are ridiculed because of what Kate's mother said? Ludicrous excuse.
Are you really playing semantics Erngath?And this is why the McCanns are ridiculed? It shows what intolerant, nasty people there are in the world then doesn't it?
‘Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more power than… than we have.'
devout
dɪˈvaʊt/Submit
adjective
having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment.
"she was a devout Catholic"
synonyms: pious, religious, devoted, dedicated, reverent, God-fearing, believing, spiritual, prayerful, holy, godly, saintly, faithful, dutiful, righteous, churchgoing, orthodox
"a devout Christian"
You appear to be trying to change the subject. Do you accept that sectarianism continues to be a facet of 21st Century life in the UK or not?
And this is why the McCanns are ridiculed? It shows what intolerant, nasty people there are in the world then doesn't it?
And this is why the McCanns are ridiculed? It shows what intolerant, nasty people there are in the world then doesn't it?
And that’s a surprise to you ?No, nothing is a surprise to me these days.
Appearances can be deceptive, can't they? In reality I was reading and replying to your previous post.
Prior to starting this thread I would have limited sectarianism to Northern Ireland and I have been amazed to discover that it isn't.
Oh, I'm sure it's only one of many reasons 8(0(*For sure, there isn't a single thing about the McCanns that hasn't been ridiculed, from their hair to the house they live in, from their accents to their upbringing, it's all been picked over and mocked mercilessly for over 11 years by some pretty unpleasant people IMO. But I guess if my kid disappeared and I kept them high profile by appearing in the media alot I would also be ripped to shreds for my appearance, my accent, my actions. C'est la vie.
For sure, there isn't a single thing about the McCanns that hasn't been ridiculed, from their hair to the house they live in, from their accents to their upbringing, it's all been picked over and mocked mercilessly for over 11 years by some pretty unpleasant people IMO. But I guess if my kid disappeared and I kept them high profile by appearing in the media alot I would also be ripped to shreds for my appearance, my accent, my actions. C'est la vie.
Are you really playing semantics Erngath?
‘Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more power than… than we have.'
devout
dɪˈvaʊt/Submit
adjective
having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment.
"she was a devout Catholic"
synonyms: pious, religious, devoted, dedicated, reverent, God-fearing, believing, spiritual, prayerful, holy, godly, saintly, faithful, dutiful, righteous, churchgoing, orthodox
"a devout Christian"
So why haven't the Needhams experienced the same phenomenon?
So why haven't the Needhams experienced the same phenomenon?For one, Ben went missing pre-internet and so opportunities to publish hateful opinions were less prevalent. For two, Ben's disappearance has not received nearly as much coverage so again Kerry is not nearly so well known as the McCanns and for three Kerry will I'm sure tell you that she has nevertheless received her fair share of abuse and online hate since.
No I'm not playing at anything.
Saying someone is not particularly religious is quite different from saying someone is not devout.
Quite different.
Not particularly religious would indicate someone. who has no real nterest in their religion.
Possibly not marrying in the church, not babtizing their children in the church, never.gong to church or praying.
Being devout is a description that very few Catholics would attribute to themselves or their family.
It suggests someone who is possibly at Mass every day, spends a good deal of time in prayers etc.
Most Catholics whether devout or not would in time of crisis turn to prayer and the Church.
Sectarianism is associated with extreme language and a particular outlook, no matter which 'side' people belong to. There is hatred of the other 'side' and an inability or a refusal to see them as equals.
Labels are applied; in Scotland terms such as 'Hun' or 'Orange b*****d', 'Fenian' or 'Tim' are used. The language which has been used to describe 'trolls' is reminiscent of sectarian language in my opinion. They are 'vile' and they 'spew hatred' they are 'inadequate' and are seen as less human than others.
There are those on both sides who 'troll' but there are also those who don't. Grouping them all together and labelling them isn't acceptable. There are intelligent reasonable people on both sides who should be able to disagree without hurling insults at each other in my opinion.
Don't apologise. Prove me wrong.
“a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.” The opposite of a believer.
In Your Opinion. It actually isn't that simple.
In your opinion. The definition of the word does not support your opinion.
To be clear I couldn’t care less whether the McCanns became Scientologists. Religion imo has no part in this case.
For one, Ben went missing pre-internet and so opportunities to publish hateful opinions were less prevalent. For two, Ben's disappearance has not received nearly as much coverage so again Kerry is not nearly so well known as the McCanns and for three Kerry will I'm sure tell you that she has nevertheless received her fair share of abuse and online hate since.
“a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.” The opposite of a believer.
Sectarianism exists everywhere there are Catholics and Protestants living together. In Great Britain it is endemic in places which have large Irish immigrant populations like Glasgow and Liverpool and the Western Isles.
For one, Ben went missing pre-internet and so opportunities to publish hateful opinions were less prevalent. For two, Ben's disappearance has not received nearly as much coverage so again Kerry is not nearly so well known as the McCanns and for three Kerry will I'm sure tell you that she has nevertheless received her fair share of abuse and online hate since.
I don't believe it has a major part to play.
However in my opinion it has some influence and to deny that sectarianism is now of the past is to do no favours in the continuing education and enlightenment of today's generation.
My grandchildren have all completed a book study of Divided City and the school has visits from "Nil by mouth".
And I believe this is part of most schools curriculum.
Cannot be know with Certainty.
Nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of god....
With Certainty. There is a difference.
You can’t just add your own words to definitions?
It states that on Google. Or are you saying that Google is wrong?
Cite please.
Google it. I did.
Google it. I did.
Google it. I did.
I have googled it myself Eleanor and I have found what slartibartfast did so perhaps you could provide a cite as you seem to be so certain of what you say.
That is the point. Nothing is certain.
I won't be continuing with this argument as it is pointless.
For sure, there isn't a single thing about the McCanns that hasn't been ridiculed, from their hair to the house they live in, from their accents to their upbringing, it's all been picked over and mocked mercilessly for over 11 years by some pretty unpleasant people IMO. But I guess if my kid disappeared and I kept them high profile by appearing in the media alot I would also be ripped to shreds for my appearance, my accent, my actions. C'est la vie.
You think they have been criticised because their 'kid disappeared' and 'they appeared in the media a lot'? You can't think of any other possible reasons?
I’m sure we’ve all had problems with all sorts of people in authority. Are you really suggesting that that would colour our opinion as to their guilt or innocence of a crime ? Really ?
Yes... Whats the difference between a doctor and God... That should answer your question
The same as between a lawyer or even a bin man and God. The world of difference.
Why should the fact that they are doctors be relevant, it isn't perhaps apart from to yourself and possibly one or two others on either side.
no...you obviously dont know the answer...the answer is whats the difference between god and a doctor....God doesnt think hes a doctor.....have you not heard that before
No I haven't. So was that a joke Davel. Sorry to ruin it then.
You think they have been criticised because their 'kid disappeared' and 'they appeared in the media a lot'? You can't think of any other possible reasons?There are no end of reasons. The fact that they are both still breathing and living their lives freely are just two more. How many do you want?
Please don’t put words into my mouth. I didn’t say sectarianism was in the past, just look at the tensions still brewing in NI. I said it had no part in this case and, imo, supporters are just grappling to find an excuse for the McCanns treatment.
There is something about the McCanns that a section of the population don’t like and/or don’t trust. What that is may be more complex than is being suggested.
Being in the public eye is always a gamble. Take the case of Margaret Thatcher;
“The Woman Who Saved Britain”, declared the Daily Mail from the right; “The Woman Who Divided A Nation”, headlined the left’s Daily Mirror, which questioned the grand, ceremonial funeral planned for next week.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-thatcher/iron-lady-thatcher-mourned-but-critics-speak-out-idUSBRE9370DA20130408
I expect those who admired her found it hard to understand why she was harshly criticised. She aroused strong feelings just as the McCanns have, despite the best efforts of their PR Guru's.
Thatcher was disliked by the Catholics of Northern Ireland, but their dislike was nothing to do with religion or sectarianism.
I agree that religion and sectarianism have nothing to do with the McCann case, but some think it has. Those who think it has have brought the language and attitudes of sectarianism into the mix.
There are no end of reasons. The fact that they are both still breathing and living their lives freely are just two more. How many do you want?
no...you obviously dont know the answer...the answer is whats the difference between god and a doctor....God doesnt think hes a doctor.....have you not heard that before
That's four. Lost a kid. Went to the media. Still breathing. Still free. Are you serious suggesting those as reasons for 'ripping them to shreds'?Absolutely, why ever not?
Absolutely, why ever not?
It seems you have completely failed to notice the real reasons.Did you not read where I said that there are no end of reasons? Including but not limited to the afore mentioned. But hey, why don’t you tell me the real reasons why the McCanns are ripped to shreds? It should be enlightening..
There are two posters here that have mentioned sectarianism and both appear to live in Scotland. I have never had any experience of this and my reactions on things therefore aren't tainted by it. Perhaps theirs are.
Did you not read where I said that there are no end of reasons? Including but not limited to the afore mentioned. But hey, why don’t you tell me the real reasons why the McCanns are ripped to shreds? It should be enlightening..
Being in the public eye is always a gamble. Take the case of Margaret Thatcher;
“The Woman Who Saved Britain”, declared the Daily Mail from the right; “The Woman Who Divided A Nation”, headlined the left’s Daily Mirror, which questioned the grand, ceremonial funeral planned for next week.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-thatcher/iron-lady-thatcher-mourned-but-critics-speak-out-idUSBRE9370DA20130408
I expect those who admired her found it hard to understand why she was harshly criticised. She aroused strong feelings just as the McCanns have, despite the best efforts of their PR Guru's.
Thatcher was disliked by the Catholics of Northern Ireland, but their dislike was nothing to do with religion or sectarianism.
I agree that religion and sectarianism have nothing to do with the McCann case, but some think it has. Those who think it has have brought the language and attitudes of sectarianism into the mix.
I believe I am one of the two posters whom you are referring to.
Fortunately I have never experienced sectarianism, possibly because I have spent my entire working life in Catholic education.
However my husband was not so fortunate.
He experienced abuse because of his religion.
Usually being referred to as "a bead rattler" or" s h I t e" doesn't burn.
Happily that kind of outlook and the associated behaviour is restricted to certain areas of the United Kingdom. I suspect that there are people in those areas of both denominations who disbelieve them. Therefore it isn't correct in my opinion to suggest that those who disbelieve the McCanns do so because they are on the opposite side of a religious divide.
There are two posters here that have mentioned sectarianism and both appear to live in Scotland. I have never had any experience of this and my reactions on things therefore aren't tainted by it. Perhaps theirs are.The thread title asks: "Is sectarianism a factor in the McCann case?" so you appear to be under the misapprehension that only two posters are posting on topic which is entirely in error.
As a white English person from a Protestant background the only 'isms' I've suffered from are paternalism and sexism. When I studied the Northern Ireland situation I was horrified by the way the Catholic population had been treated. I was equally disgusted by the 'No Irish' signs in England outside boarding houses years ago. I can't imagine how hard it is to be treated badly because of religion or nationality. I once met an Irish lady who'd eliminated her accent as she felt it held her back.
Having acknowledged all that I think it's possible that those who've experienced sectarianism may see it where it doesn't exist. The McCann's backgrounds and religion are irrelevant to me. I expect they are to others too. Despite that, we have been tarred with that brush in my opinion. I've been denying for years that I'm part of some organised group who 'spew hatred' and subject them to 'vile abuse' because it's true.
I think people need to consider the possibility that people criticise and question the McCanns for other reasons than blind hatred of Catholics. If sectarianism was a significant factor then Scottish Catholics wouldn't be sceptical.
As a white English person from a Protestant background the only 'isms' I've suffered from are paternalism and sexism. When I studied the Northern Ireland situation I was horrified by the way the Catholic population had been treated. I was equally disgusted by the 'No Irish' signs in England outside boarding houses years ago. I can't imagine how hard it is to be treated badly because of religion or nationality. I once met an Irish lady who'd eliminated her accent as she felt it held her back.
Having acknowledged all that I think it's possible that those who've experienced sectarianism may see it where it doesn't exist. The McCann's backgrounds and religion are irrelevant to me. I expect they are to others too. Despite that, we have been tarred with that brush in my opinion. I've been denying for years that I'm part of some organised group who 'spew hatred' and subject them to 'vile abuse' because it's true.
I think people need to consider the possibility that people criticise and question the McCanns for other reasons than blind hatred of Catholics. If sectarianism was a significant factor then Scottish Catholics wouldn't be sceptical.
The thread title asks: "Is sectarianism a factor in the McCann case?" so you appear to be under the misapprehension that only two posters are posting on topic which is entirely in error.
Your posts have indicated to me traits in your opinions of which you appear to be in ignorance but which leap out of the page to me.
In one of your earlier posts regarding Kate and Gerry's religion you suggested - and I paraphrase here - that the remedy for MSM reference to their 'devout' Catholicism might be that rather than taking part in religious ceremonies for Madeleine publicly in the street they could better take their devotions into the privacy of a church service.
In my opinion the gatherings held in Madeleine's home town were a spin off and continuation from vigils held by friends and neighbours and in the early days as a vehicle to keep Madeleine alive in public consciousness when there was no official investigation happening in her case.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Kate and Gerry's religion or where and how they chose to worship.
In Rothley this year on the eleventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance "Prayers were led by parish vicar the Rev. Rob Gladstone" https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/700374/madeleine-mccann-anniversary-news-missing-vigil-parents-gerry-kate-rothley-leicestershire who is vicar of Rothley Parish Church a vibrant Anglican Evangelical community in the village http://www.rothleychurch.org.uk/about-us/about-our-church/ and is now an opportunity to take advantage to publicise other missing people;
Snip
"Gerry, 49, dressed casually in jeans and grey sweater, joined locals placing name tags of symbolic missing and lost people on a vine tree of hope temporarily placed at the heart of the village.
Among 28 selected names read out as they were attached to the branches were Claudia Lawrence and April Jones, and Madeleine McCann."
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/700374/madeleine-mccann-anniversary-news-missing-vigil-parents-gerry-kate-rothley-leicestershire
You also appear in this post to make assumptions about the people of Scotland as a whole based on the anecdotal evidence of two which is hardly scientific especially for the resident? (I presume) of a state with inbuilt bias against Catholics at its root as typified by the Act of Settlement which restricts the monarchy to protestants.
I have identified sectarian bias against the McCann family in very many insidious ways not because I am a Scot and the subject of a British State with religious bias at the heart of it (ie the head of state by statute must be protestant), but because I am capable of analysing what I read.
I have certainly never intimated that anyone here is "being tarred with that brush"
Nor do I suggest that you or anyone here is part of some organised group .
To make such accusations is in my opinion over-egging the pudding and rather unfair.
Nor do I suggest that the only reason why the McCanns have been the subject of abuse is because of sectarian attitudes.
I think there are some who post rationally, discuss/debate without resorting to abuse.
I have read some abusive posts which in my opinion have the taint of sectarianism.
I've read some abusive posts which do not have the taint of sectarianism.
I'm sure there are other reasons which engender such abuse.
There have been repeated references to 'organised groups' spreading 'propaganda' 'spewing hate' and 'vile abuse'. When challenged those 'outraged' by that behaviour have admitted that it happens elsewhere, not here. If so, why does it get mentioned so often? What is said elsewhere has nothing to do with this forum.
I said there were reasons other than sectarianism for people criticising and questioning the McCanns. You seem to have changed that to other reasons which 'engender abuse'. In my opinion you need to accept that 'criticising and questioning' are not the same thing as 'abusing'.
Discussing the childcare arrangements, the statement discrepancies, the 'jemmied shutters' and the abduction story isn't abusive. Abuse is abusive.
There have been repeated references to 'organised groups' spreading 'propaganda' 'spewing hate' and 'vile abuse'. When challenged those 'outraged' by that behaviour have admitted that it happens elsewhere, not here. If so, why does it get mentioned so often? What is said elsewhere has nothing to do with this forum.
I said there were reasons other than sectarianism for people criticising and questioning the McCanns. You seem to have changed that to other reasons which 'engender abuse'. In my opinion you need to accept that 'criticising and questioning' are not the same thing as 'abusing'.
Discussing the childcare arrangements, the statement discrepancies, the 'jemmied shutters' and the abduction story isn't abusive. Abuse is abusive.
I don't understand your post at all.
I have stated several times that discussion and debate of some aspects of this case are not abusive.
I don't know how often I have to say that.
So really you have no need to point this out to me.
If what is said elsewhere should not be discussed here then why is there a thread of 123 pages long which has nothing to do with this forum?
Thank you. I look forward to debate taking place without the use of words such as 'hate' and 'abuse' being used in the future. I don't have a problem with discussing what is said elsewhere, I have a problem when the inference is that posters on here are associated with, agree with or approve of some of the things said elsewhere.
Undoubtedly there are groups elsewhere on the net who do this and it is a feature of this case, as acknowledged by Angelo on the thread started yesterday. Why shouldn’t it be discussed here and why does doing so seem to upset you so much?
Indeed.
Much as I had problems with some posters here inferring or trying to imply that I was associated with the production of the dossier.
You understand how counter-productive and unjust such inferences are then.
I disagree with much of your post Brietta.
At the start you say "The thread title asks: "Is sectarianism a factor in the McCann case?" so you appear to be under the misapprehension that only two posters are posting on topic which is entirely in error."
No I said two posters had mentioned sectarianism and both lived in Scotland. On reading it I didn't mean they were the only two who mentioned it but the only two who had experienced it. I did not make assumptions about the whole people of Scotland I simply pointed out that we have 2 posters with experience and they both live in Scotland.
"Your posts have indicated to me traits in your opinions of which you appear to be in ignorance but which leap out of the page to me."
Could you explain what a trait in my opinion is please and could you also answer my posts about why you were tickled elsewhere that I found a link on a forum please?
Lastly about the vigils in the square. Because the vigils were held for prayers for Madeleine regardless of who organised the whole thing it would surely be up to the couple to agree the venue. Do we know whether the McCanns were active in organising them.
My grammar and English are clearly not up to your exacting standard Brietta.
The McCanns are more the victims of unjust inferences than you and I will ever be.
There is nothing more galling than being censored for speaking the truth.
This Thread seems to be going quite well, albeit a trifle Off Topic. But if we can learn more about each other then this can only be good.
My stepmother, who didn't like me very much, was the daughter of a German Jewess who was frightened out of her mind after The War, so I felt sorry for her. She loathed The Welsh, but then my maternal grandmother was Welsh. So what with The Welsh, The Irish and The Jews there isn't much Sectarianism that I haven't been subjected to.
I have never really understood any of it.
Oh, I forgot to mention that my paternal great-grandfather was a Romany. I am actually quite proud of that, and might explain why I lived in a caravan for twelve years.
Is that true? I don't know and I don't know how you can be so sure.
Censored? By whom? Truth or your opinion of the truth? If you wish to discuss something start a thread, don't hijack an existing one.
There have been repeated references to 'organised groups' spreading 'propaganda' 'spewing hate' and 'vile abuse'. When challenged those 'outraged' by that behaviour have admitted that it happens elsewhere, not here. If so, why does it get mentioned so often? What is said elsewhere has nothing to do with this forum.
I said there were reasons other than sectarianism for people criticising and questioning the McCanns. You seem to have changed that to other reasons which 'engender abuse'. In my opinion you need to accept that 'criticising and questioning' are not the same thing as 'abusing'.
Discussing the childcare arrangements, the statement discrepancies, the 'jemmied shutters' and the abduction story isn't abusive. Abuse is abusive.
There is nothing more galling than being censored for speaking the truth.
There are many opinions of the truth on this forum.
Why some are censored is quite unclear.
This Thread seems to be going quite well, albeit a trifle Off Topic. But if we can learn more about each other then this can only be good.
My stepmother, who didn't like me very much, was the daughter of a German Jewess who was frightened out of her mind after The War, so I felt sorry for her. She loathed The Welsh, but then my maternal grandmother was Welsh. So what with The Welsh, The Irish and The Jews there isn't much Sectarianism that I haven't been subjected to.
I have never really understood any of it.
Oh, I forgot to mention that my paternal great-grandfather was a Romany. I am actually quite proud of that, and might explain why I lived in a caravan for twelve years.
I agree, knowing is understanding. I believe that's the reason why a lot of work is done with children and teenagers in these sectarian areas so they can understand each other as people.
I was adopted. so know little of my ancestors. My adopted mother's family and others in our village disapproved of adoption because they thought the child of a 'loose woman' carried her 'bad blood' which would show itself at some point. I sensed their disapproval but had no idea why until I was older. When I clashed with my mother the subject came up as she pondered if I did indeed have this 'bad blood'.
When I researched my adoption years later I discovered that I was moved less than two miles, so it's quite possible that people in my village knew where I came from and why. My natural mother moved 25 miles away just before I came to the attention of the authorities, but she lived two miles away during the first two years of my life.
I can understand being disliked for no good reason. My reaction has been to make my own mind up about people as individuals. My husband and I made friends with Germans when others allowed prejudice to prevent them doing that. We made friends with the people on the Western Isles when others were prejudiced against them. My children made friends with black children without even thinking about their colour and my grandchildren have Asian friends.
My views on the McCann case have nothing to do with prejudice,class, religion or sectarianism. My views are based on my observations and research, nothing else.
I can safely say that the McCanns are the victims of more unjust inferences than myself.
I have researched my own ancestry.
It's rather boring, nothing as interesting as yours.
Scots and Irish.
That's it!
My husband has Scottish, Irish, Italian and Norwegian great grand parents.
In my opinion that's just opinion posted as if it were a fact. Unless you define 'unjust inferences' that could mean anything. Unless you give cites no-one else can judge whether the 'inferences' are unjust or deserved.
There is nothing more galling than people diverting from the topic.
Perhaps your views, are coloured by your personal circumstances
I agree, knowing is understanding. I believe that's the reason why a lot of work is done with children and teenagers in these sectarian areas so they can understand each other as people.
I was adopted. so know little of my ancestors. My adopted mother's family and others in our village disapproved of adoption because they thought the child of a 'loose woman' carried her 'bad blood' which would show itself at some point. I sensed their disapproval but had no idea why until I was older. When I clashed with my mother the subject came up as she pondered if I did indeed have this 'bad blood'.
When I researched my adoption years later I discovered that I was moved less than two miles, so it's quite possible that people in my village knew where I came from and why. My natural mother moved 25 miles away just before I came to the attention of the authorities, but she lived two miles away during the first two years of my life.
I can understand being disliked for no good reason. My reaction has been to make my own mind up about people as individuals. My husband and I made friends with Germans when others allowed prejudice to prevent them doing that. We made friends with the people on the Western Isles when others were prejudiced against them. My children made friends with black children without even thinking about their colour and my grandchildren have Asian friends.
My views on the McCann case have nothing to do with prejudice,class, religion or sectarianism. My views are based on my observations and research, nothing else.
My paternal grandmother was Italian. She cried a lot, especially when her daughter in law, my mother died. I thank her for my love of machinery, although probably a bit second hand. The Italians are really great mechanics.
Your ancestry sounds very interesting to me. Did you know that the largest grave at Culloden was Irish? The Clan MacDonnell,. and The Clan Macdonald in Scotland. They have the same Clan Chief, The Earl of Antrim, who was and still is a raging Catholic. Look a bit deeper.
The Norwegian is par for the course since parts of Northern Scotland were probably Norwegian in days of yore.
Probably some sort of an attempt to establish an identity when you don't know enough about who you are. But the likes of you and me are all Celts, and some Sceptics as well, I do imagine. All tough old cookies, which might have something to do with why we are all still here.
Tribal? I expect so. Some of us might even be related.
Viking/Scandinavian blood is quite common in Northern England and Scotland. I am very blond with blue eyes and so are my children, despite the fact that their father was dark-haired and brown-eyed. I have thought that might due to the presence of Scandinavian ancestors. My son has piercing blue eyes like Paul Newman's.
Be a Celt, Love. You sound like one. And Celts of course, were always at war with each other over something or another.
This Thread has done me a power of good.
As us Scots say Eleanor ‘We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns’.
That made me feel a bit sad for you. Thanks for telling. I did wonder but would never have asked. I spent three years in a lovely Children's Home, being loved and cared for by Upper Class Scots. I don't know what religion they were but we were taken to an Anglo Catholic Church, where I sang in The Choir. I loved the pomp and circumstance but didn't get much idea about God. But no one rammed anything down my throat.
My only problem was being sent "Home" again.
I am so sorry that you were made to wonder about such a hurtful and ridiculous thing.
As us Scots say Eleanor ‘We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns’.
Don't be so boring and trivial. We are all having a lovely time talking about Me Me Me. Or at least I am. John will sort it if he doesn't like it.
Be a Celt, Love. You sound like one. And Celts of course, were always at war with each other over something or another.
This Thread has done me a power of good.
Thanks, Eleanor. It was difficult but I now see it as an advantage. People with easy childhoods often don't have to puzzle out who they are until later in life. I got it all out of the way during my teens and early 20's, so no mid-life crisis for me lol.
I was hurt at being misunderstood and misjudged but I didn't blame those who did it because they knew no better. They were products of their time, that's all. I'm just glad that I was able to put it behind me and move on. I imagine you, like me, learned to be self-reliant and tough, so it wasn't all negative.
Adopted people are overcome when they have children because that's the first time they see someone who looks like them. They also realise that brains are inherited too. I can understand my children's thought processes because we're related. It takes a lot more effort to understand and love each other in adoptive families.
I have always loved the bagpipes. Does that make me a Celt? When we lived on Benbecula a local lad used to practice his pipes outside in the evenings. I used to lean out of my bedroom window enjoying the view of the sea and the huge sky and listening to him. Happy memories. It's the only place I lived where I cried when I left.
Bonnie Prince Charlie found refuge on Benbecula after Culloden with the Presbyterian community, so no sectarianism in those days it seems. I think they all hated the English more than each other actually. It was from Benbecula that Flora MacDonald rowed the Prince over the sea to Skye.
A bit deep. I hadn't actually thought about it. All of my children look like my father, who wasn't much cop emotionally. But he was very clever, and we all got that bit.
I also got my Italian Grandmother's emotion. I cry at the drop of a hat and embarrass my sons. Tough shite.
But you must have some of your mother in you, for which you really should be proud. Things were so different in those days, and I am more than old enough to remember the shame.
Nurture was never everything, in fact Nature is almost certainly the greatest of all. I have three sons by different fathers, and I can see the difference.
Oh Dear God. They played The Bag Pipes outside my window every morning when I was in The Wrens in Scotland, and what a joy that was to me. I suspect you need a Celt ear to love that.
I remain forever a follower of the father of Prince Charlie, although it's a bit late now.
You must know as much about Scottish history as I do, and that desire must have come from somewhere. I just always felt "At Home" in Scotland.
Although The Bretons are Celts. Scots, Irish and Welsh. The Breton Language is a mixture of all of them.
When I researched my birth family my natural mother had died. I only made contact because I had two older half sisters. As I was two when I was taken by the authorities I thought they might remember that disappearing child. They had absolutely no idea that I existed. They never saw me or heard about me, so it was a huge shock for them. I still don't know how she gave birth and had me looked after without them suspecting, but she did.The nature v nurture angle is very relevant, as to whether Madeleine would look like her new family, or would bond with them. Should such a family exist.
I felt no connection with my half sisters or they with me. I think I must take after my father, but I have no way of finding out who he was. Her husband was away in the war, and I was adopted because he refused to reconcile with her unless I went. Not that I was with her anyway, but my adoption made it permanent. I seem to have my natural mother's digestive system as she died of complications with that. I also worked in Accounts as she did.
When I researched my birth family my natural mother had died. I only made contact because I had two older half sisters. As I was two when I was taken by the authorities I thought they might remember that disappearing child. They had absolutely no idea that I existed. They never saw me or heard about me, so it was a huge shock for them. I still don't know how she gave birth and had me looked after without them suspecting, but she did.
I felt no connection with my half sisters or they with me. I think I must take after my father, but I have no way of finding out who he was. Her husband was away in the war, and I was adopted because he refused to reconcile with her unless I went. Not that I was with her anyway, but my adoption made it permanent. I seem to have my natural mother's digestive system as she died of complications with that. I also worked in Accounts as she did.
The nature v nurture angle is very relevant, as to whether Madeleine would look like her new family, or would bond with them. Should such a family exist.
We were stationed with a Scottish Regiment in England and I loved watching their pipe band on their parade square. They would play, march and some of them practiced their sword dancing too. I found my son wearing his sister's kilt and dancing round the living room one day after he had watched the band with me on the way back from the shops, He was about 2 then.
Seriously watch what you eat, is all that I can say to the digestive problems. And I do mean seriously. It does help.
So your mother had a child while her husband was away in The War. Her and thousands like her. Some of their husbands were a bit more kind. Some husbands went away even though they didn't need to.
Some older children were evacuated, so wouldn't have known anyway. But she doesn't sound like a particularly bad mother to me.
You and I also have something else in common. We were both married to Service Men who were away from home on occasions, mine for longer periods than yours. Which is how I came to leave my children while I went next door for a cup of coffee and a chat. Two years at sea was very ordinary in those days, and not much fun to be left alone with two small children and not a lot of money for as long as that.
I have never given my reasons before because I didn't think I needed to make excuses. I still don't. I mention it now only in passing.
Research the family name, there is bound to be a Scot in there somewhere. And then buy him his own Kilt. What fun that would be.
He'd have a fit, he's 49 now.
After reading all these lovely thoughts and memories of Scotland, I'm glad I still live here or I'd be terribly homesick. 8)><(
Mind you it's raining again.
I found three weeks was the ideal length of time for my husband to go away. The first week me and the kids had a ball. We ignored routine and ate what and when we wanted. The second week they began to take advantage, and by the end of the third week I was longing for him to return. Long Navy Tours must have been very hard. I think six weeks was our longest period of separation.
I think it was different then too. We had different attitudes to children and childcare and we had no support from family at all. I remember a dustbin strike when my husband was away, but my mother had come to stay luckily . The Army lit a fire and said 'bring your rubbish and we'll burn it'. My husband had made a soapbox buggy for my son so we loaded the bin on that and set off, followed by my son crying that he wanted to get on the buggy. He had to cry all the way there and all the way back because the bin got the ride lol. My Mum and I were pulling the buggy and steadying the bin, so he got ignored. I think we were all ready to cry after that.
I remember one Winter when the Stand Pipes froze on the caravan site, and I was pregnant. Getting water was really awful.
And then that Russian President was heading for Cuba and I was alone with two small babies at the end of a Naval Air Station Runway. Beggar The Navy. Naval Persons weren't supposed to get married, so us Naval Wives were on our own.
Viking/Scandinavian blood is quite common in Northern England and Scotland. I am very blond with blue eyes and so are my children, despite the fact that their father was dark-haired and brown-eyed. I have thought that might due to the presence of Scandinavian ancestors. My son has piercing blue eyes like Paul Newman's.All very fascinating but - on topic? Slarti seems to be happy that it is, bizarrely.
All very fascinating but - on topic? Slarti seems to be happy that it is, bizarrely.
Exactly G-Unit. Such a shame we can't discuss the case without some posters insulting our intelligence.
Sorry for getting carried away, folks, but it seemed worth in the interests of understanding each other better. It remains to be seen of it works, of course.
I achieved what I set out to do too. Sectarianism has been a factor in the case in my opinion. The unfairness inherent in sectarianism has, I think, been seen by some as similar to what they see as unfairness in the treatment of the McCanns. They have then decided that those who doubt the McCanns have a similar ulterior motive. That may be true of some people. but I don't think it's true of the majority. In my opinion people doubt the McCanns for reasons other than their Catholicism. I know I do.
That criticism is equally applied to supporters.
We who are "sheeples", don't think out of the box, worship at the altar of the McCanns, are fooled by the media and so on.
That criticism is equally applied to supporters.
We who are "sheeples", don't think out of the box, worship at the altar of the McCanns, are fooled by the media and so on.
I don't know anyone who thinks sceptics have an ulterior motive.
i dont think religon has anything to do with what someone thinks about the mcanns people just have their own opinion which is perfectly fine its when people try and convince people to accept what they think it becomes a bit cult like imo
Who is "a bit cult like"
Supporters or sceptics?
Sectarianism is an ulterior motive.
I think both sides have 'groups'. Any grouping can become cult-like.
I believe earlier you said it was mistaken to suggest that sceptics should be in a "group"
Carly has often suggested that supporters are "cult like"
Sectarianism?
Please keep to the topic. Don’t try and divert the thread.What is the topic, exactly? Sectarianism or sharing our back stories?
I believe earlier you said it was mistaken to suggest that sceptics should be in a "group"
Carly has often suggested that supporters are "cult like"
I don't believe there is any real sectarianism in this case....so no ulterior motive
Sceptics elsewhere are in groups with agreed beliefs. Not me and not here.
I agree with you. It's others who think sceptics are motivated by sectarianism, not me.
snip/
I have read some abusive posts which in my opinion have the taint of sectarianism.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10111.msg487065#msg487065
snip/
where I live sectarianism is a fact of life although thankfully not nearly the all pervasive thing it once was but I think I recognise many of the hidden traits* in some of the internet posting I have seen.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10111.msg486743#msg486743
Sceptlics.. and I class you as one... have a shared belief in that the are sceptical of the McCann's account... Kate says the window was open... I believe her... you as, a sceptic do not... you believe she may not be telling the truthEither that or she opened the window herself, or did Amaral even suggest the scene was staged by one of the others?
Sceptlics.. and I class you as one... have a shared belief in that the are sceptical of the McCann's account... Kate says the window was open... I believe her... you as, a sceptic do not... you believe she may not be telling the truthI find that a bit rude of you Davel. If G-unit says she is not that type of sceptic, what right do you have to say she is. You are virtually calling her a liar in front of everyone else. If G-unit complains about this I think you will need to apologise.
Saying some posts have a taint of sectarianism is, not the same as saying sceptics are sectarian.... It may well be, that a, few abusive posts are driven by sectarianism
Sceptlics.. and I class you as one... have a shared belief in that the are sceptical of the McCann's account... Kate says the window was open... I believe her... you as, a sceptic do not... you believe she may not be telling the truth
I find that a bit rude of you Davel. If G-unit says she is not that type of sceptic, what right do you have to say she is. You are virtually calling her a liar in front of everyone else. If G-unit complains about this I think you will need to apologise.
Thank you Rob. In my opinion Davel didn't understand my post. I was discussing cults, which I see as sharing all their opinions on a certain subject. The fact that sceptics share one opinion doesn't mean a cult exists, so his post isn't relevant.I wasn't too sure myself that is why I was going to leave it up to you. How do you define cult? That in my family was considered an insult to be said "you are a member of a cult". So I'm a little touchy about the use of the word.
i dont think religon has anything to do with what someone thinks about the mcanns people just have their own opinion which is perfectly fine its when people try and convince people to accept what they think it becomes a bit cult like imo
I find that a bit rude of you Davel. If G-unit says she is not that type of sceptic, what right do you have to say she is. You are virtually calling her a liar in front of everyone else. If G-unit complains about this I think you will need to apologise.
That was a quick change of mind. @)(++(*
snip/
I don't believe there is any real sectarianism in this case.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10111.msg487238#msg487238
I wasn't too sure myself that is why I was going to leave it up to you. How do you define cult? That in my family was considered an insult to be said "you are a member of a cult". So I'm a little touchy about the use of the word.
Thank you Rob. In my opinion Davel didn't understand my post. I was discussing cults, which I see as sharing all their opinions on a certain subject. The fact that sceptics share one opinion doesn't mean a cult exists, so his post isn't relevant.
I never mentioned cults...you talked of shared beliefs... Sceptics share one belief by definition
What is that belief?
I said I don't believe there us any real sectarianism... Not that there is none... No change of mind
What's the difference between sectarianism (which you seem to have now agreed is present) and 'real' sectarianism which you seem to be ruling out?
They are, sceptical of the McCann's denial that they are involved in Maddie's disappearance
Well you are not accurate there.
In your opinion... Explain why... Without an explanation your post has no value
You imply that all sceptics suspect the McCanns were involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, I am saying that is not true.
They are, sceptical of the McCann's denial that they are involved in Maddie's disappearance
I started this thread because I noticed that particular words have been used over and over again to describe those who doubt the McCanns. Words like;Those words are not limited to sectarianism and they have not been words described as being used by those who doubt the McCann's... They are, words used to abuse the mccanns.. Several if those words have been used here and Brenda used the wird hate
hate
[ censored word ]
spew
vile
abuse
spout
rant
bile
I don't use any of those words and I don't know anyone who does, so I never understood where they came from. It was a chance remark that led me to investigate sectarianism and I very quickly found the source of those words. They are the language of sectarianism.
Sectarians who doubt the McCanns may exist, but not all those who doubt the McCanns are sectarians. Therefore it's wrong to use that language to describe all of them in my opinion.
Those words are not limited to sectarianism and they have not been words described as being used by those who doubt the McCann's... They are, words used to abuse the mccanns.. Several if those words have been used here and Brenda used the wird hate
So if you think it is possible "Madeleine woke and wandered" are you neither a supporter or a sceptic?
Except that some think Madeleine woke and wandered. No parental involvement required.
So if you think it is possible "Madeleine woke and wandered" are you neither a supporter or a sceptic?
You are a sceptic in this case if you have doubts about the “accepted” narrative.And you share the same bed as those who have doubts about other “accepted” narratives, such as the killing of Lee Rigby, Sandy Hook, 9/11 etc.
So if you think it is possible "Madeleine woke and wandered" are you neither a supporter or a sceptic?
Those words may not be limited to sectarianism but they're frequently used in connection with it. I can't remember ever accusing someone of 'spewing bile' at another person; it's not part of my vocabulary.You have several times accused me (laughably IMO) of abusing you, simply for asking your opinion, or suggesting that you hold beliefs which you refuse to acknowledge publicly.
You are a sceptic in this case if you have doubts about the “accepted” narrative.
And you share the same bed as those who have doubts about other “accepted” narratives, such as the killing of Lee Rigby, Sandy Hook, 9/11 etc.
So if you think it is possible "Madeleine woke and wandered" are you neither a supporter or a sceptic?
And you share the same bed as those who have doubts about other “accepted” narratives, such as the killing of Lee Rigby, Sandy Hook, 9/11 etc.
You have several times accused me (laughably IMO) of abusing you, simply for asking your opinion, or suggesting that you hold beliefs which you refuse to acknowledge publicly.
You have demonstrated the problem with labelling people. Those people are sceptical of the 'abduction from the apartment' theory.But we are supportive as we are not saying the McCanns were involved in the occultation of Madeleine's body.
But we are supportive as we are not saying the McCanns were involved in the occultation of Madeleine's body.
You have demonstrated the problem with labelling people. Those people are sceptical of the 'abduction from the apartment' theory.
We?Me, John, Angelo any others?
Sorry for getting carried away, folks, but it seemed worth in the interests of understanding each other better. It remains to be seen of it works, of course.
I achieved what I set out to do too. Sectarianism has been a factor in the case in my opinion. The unfairness inherent in sectarianism has, I think, been seen by some as similar to what they see as unfairness in the treatment of the McCanns. They have then decided that those who doubt the McCanns have a similar ulterior motive. That may be true of some people. but I don't think it's true of the majority. In my opinion people doubt the McCanns for reasons other than their Catholicism. I know I do.
It never crossed my mind to doubt them because they were Catholics . 🆙
I would concur, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg, which came first, the doubts or the dislikes?
To know how it began it would be necessary to have been involved from the beginning. I have to admit it passed me by. I only began to look at the case after a chance remark by someone asking what I thought. By then the battle lines had been drawn and each 'side' blamed the other.
I started this thread because I noticed that particular words have been used over and over again to describe those who doubt the McCanns. Words like;
hate
[ censored word ]
spew
vile
abuse
spout
rant
bile
I don't use any of those words and I don't know anyone who does, so I never understood where they came from. It was a chance remark that led me to investigate sectarianism and I very quickly found the source of those words. They are the language of sectarianism.
Sectarians who doubt the McCanns may exist, but not all those who doubt the McCanns are sectarians. Therefore it's wrong to use that language to describe all of them in my opinion.
It's clear how it began but it seems I'm not allowed to say
Why?
My post was, removed
So instead of punishing all the parents of the children in order to protect their tourist industry, they then go on to accuse one set of parents of faking an abduction and getting rid of their childs body.Like Davel, I have my own ideas on this that i cannot post.
Is this accusation the reason for the hatred?
To use an often used quote.
It must have touched a nerve.
Pity! I would like to have read it.
Can you show where anyone has accused all sceptics as being sectarian.
It's nonsense to say that anyone has suggested that to be true.
To use an often used quote.
It must have touched a nerve.
Pity! I would like to have read it.
Perhaps it simply broke forum rules.
Like many of yours did yesterday... It seems there's quite, a lot of subjectivity
There's a lot of rule breaking, but not often by me.
Si why do you doubt themBecause there is no evidence to support their story that Madeleine was taken by a paedophile .
Madeleine and her parents very quickly became associated with the church in Luz where Kate and Gerry sought and found much solace after Madeleine's disappearance.
That has raised sceptic questions and criticism.
Madeleine's parents went to Rome and received a blessing from the Pope.
That has raised sceptic questions and criticism.
They went to the shrine at Fatima.
That raised sceptic questions and criticism.
,
They were loaned a bible.
That raised sceptic questions and criticism.
Even the request for a priest formed an enduring plank of criticism not to mention the subsequent social media treatment of Father Pacheco.
Religion and the misinterpretation of it has in my opinion featured largely in Madeleine's case from the word go.
It was the McCanns who made religion a feature of the case, despite not being particularly religious before or, indeed, afterwards;
February 2008
as Gerry puts it, “I am not the most religious person in the world.”
Nor is his brother;
“I think there’s probably still no God"
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/02/mccanns200802
Somehow the media got the wrong idea;
The couple are keen runners and devout Catholics, attending weekly services at their local church in Rothley, Leics.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-kate-gerry-10272760
As devout Catholics Kate and Gerry remember their daughter
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4470752/Kate-Gerry-McCann-join-prayers-Madeleine.html
Madeleine and her parents very quickly became associated with the church in Luz where Kate and Gerry sought and found much solace after Madeleine's disappearance.
That has raised sceptic questions and criticism.
Madeleine's parents went to Rome and received a blessing from the Pope.
That has raised sceptic questions and criticism.
They went to the shrine at Fatima.
That raised sceptic questions and criticism.
They were loaned a bible.
That raised sceptic questions and criticism.
Even the request for a priest formed an enduring plank of criticism not to mention the subsequent social media treatment of Father Pacheco.
Religion and the misinterpretation of it has in my opinion featured largely in Madeleine's case from the word go.
It's partly ignorance which can lead to false assumptions being made.
I would never criticise any religion or religious practices without being absolutely sure of my facts.
All of the clergy both Anglican and Catholic have been the subject of unfair scrutiny and even wild accusations.
Do you really mean your last sentence?
Are you unhappy with my last sentence?
You either mean “all” the clergy which is patently false, or that some have been victimised which in the current climate of child abuse would require more explanation than just a bald statement.
I mean the two Catholic priests and the one Anglican vicar who helped the McCanns have been the subject of unfair scrutiny and ridiculous accusations by SOME sceptics.
Why would I be bringing into this discussion the subject of the current climate of child abuse !
What evidence can you show of this ?
Have you never read some of the theories suggested on anti McCann sites?
I'm not repeating them here.
Since when have theories become serious cites ?
Theories which include accusations and libellous speculation are surely cites for accusations and libellous speculation.
Only if you link to them, which you seem unwilling to do.
Claiming something without providing evidence to support it is against the rules, I believe.
Why don't you pop over to CMOMM and read the thread dedicated to "The Priests"
I don't believe forum rules would allow a link.
Under headings such as ''I was deceived' says the Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann" no stone was left unturned in the efforts used to turn Kate and Gerry's religion against them.
Snip
However, his friendship with the couple appeared to spectacularly backfire after police became convinced Kate had told him she had killed her daughter during confession.
But he has vowed to take whatever she had said to the grave, despite being quizzed by detectives.
Father Pacheco appeared to virtually vanish from the public eye in the weeks after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos - or official suspects.
The pair left Portugal without saying goodbye and handed the church keys to another clergyman.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488262/I-deceived-says-Portuguese-priest-comforted-Gerry-Kate-McCann.html
Nothing more or less than sheer balderdash. An issue has been made out of an event which just did not take place.
Father Pacheco did not hear Kate's confession ... but it made a good story.
Snip
When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
He never talked to them alone.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATHER_PACHECO.htm
]Really ???? I had no idea such a board existed over there but I'm not curious enough to visit as I've probably seen quite a lot of it regurgitated elsewhere, so no particular need to.
Religion most certainly does appear to have quite a place in Madeleine's case. Sectarianism in my opinion walks hand in hand with misunderstanding sometimes deliberate, sometimes not ~ prejudice and malice.
From what I have looked at in that place if all three weren't evident on the Priest thread there I think it would run the risk of being unique.
Theories which include accusations and libellous speculation are surely cites for accusations and libellous speculation.
Not sectarian attacks then? Just sceptics daring to discuss priests and other clergy?
Not sectarian attacks then? Just sceptics daring to discuss priests and other clergy?
Why do you think the case of a missing child should invoke such hatred?
I think the hatred is already within those who hate... The case just provides them with a focus
Some sectarianism, some rather dubious accusations but mostly utterly ignorant assumptions about Catholicism.
Insidious is a word that springs to mind as far as the way in which their religion has been twisted against them and I don't think much of what I have posted is not in line with the thread title.
I think much of your objection to my posts lies less with what I am highlighting and more with your opinions.
I wonder how many fallacies we can get from that...It was your use of the term “acceped” narrative that bands all the cases I mentioned togther. What is the difference between “established facts” and “accepted narrative” then, in your view?
Straw Man
Genetic
Ad Hom
To have doubts about one story in no way implies you have doubts about established facts.
Do you have examples please?Not without going though all your posts for the last year. Are you claiming you have never accused me of abusing you? You also claimed that using the term”sceptic” was abusive.
It was your use of the term “acceped” narrative that bands all the cases I mentioned togther. What is the difference between “established facts” and “accepted narrative” then, in your view?
9/11, Lee Rigby and Sandy Hook are established facts, there is an “accepted” narrative around the disappearance of MM which may not be fact.You are aware of course that there are numerous people who don’t accept the established facts of the the cases mentioned, just as many don’t accept the “accepted narrative, but what is the “accepted” narrative then, and accepted by whom exactly?
Summed up in a short sentence.
I disagree, obviously. An article in the media about Father Pacheco isn't relevant on a thread about sectarianism. I have started a new thread where opinions about the McCann's religion can be discussed.A discussion on the various links in the chain of the excoriation of the McCanns involving perceived sectarianism is in my opinion quite valid.
A discussion on the various links in the chain of the excoriation of the McCanns involving perceived sectarianism is in my opinion quite valid.Well who knows , they went to Fatima, then to the Rome, and her book was full of religiosity, I think Kate will welcome a discussion on it.
Opening a thread to discuss the McCann's religion is in my opinion so crass as to be beneath contempt.
A discussion on the various links in the chain of the excoriation of the McCanns involving perceived sectarianism is in my opinion quite valid.
Opening a thread to discuss the McCann's religion is in my opinion so crass as to be beneath contempt.
I think the hatred is already within those who hate... The case just provides them with a focus
That seems to be a description of a troll. No real interest in the case, just a desire to cause disruption and upset others. That's not necessarily sectarianism, it's probably just nastiness.
It is just nastiness...
Well, I am surprised. How many more 'isms' are being perpetuated within our police forces?
Met settles sectarian bullying case for 'tens of thousands' after Catholic detective claims he was discriminated against by his Ulster Protestant boss
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229420/Catholic-detective-subjected-sectarian-bullying-harassment-Ulster-Protestant-boss-Scotland-Yard.html
A lot of bullying does go on in the police force which surprised me too initially. It's not a job for weak people or those with thin skins. The armed forces are the same too, probably the nature of the beast.
Bullying in the work place is bad.
Having "managers" whose knowledge of employment laws is so piss poor it costs you money is even worse.
They are the ones who will do it again if not retrained or shoved up a bleeding backwater where they can do no damage. It thrives in the public sector because the tax payers pockets are bottomless.
A lot of bullying does go on in the police force which surprised me too initially. It's not a job for weak people or those with thin skins. The armed forces are the same too, probably the nature of the beast.
I saw no sectarian problems in the Army, just one deserter who went off to join the IRA.
Really? I bet that caused a bit of a kerfuffle. Actually, I nearly laughed, although I don't suppose it was very funny
I was gobsmacked. He was our next door neighbour and left his wife and kids when he took off. She said the IRA paid better!
I was gobsmacked. He was our next door neighbour and left his wife and kids when he took off. She said the IRA paid better!
I bet they did. That's even more funny. Sorry, weird sense of humour.
They gave them real bullets too, I expect. It wasn't often that the British Army handed out live ammo in those days. .They handed out a fair few on that bloody Sunday in 1972.
They handed out a fair few on that bloody Sunday in 1972.
Is this a good time to admit that I had some sympathy for The IRA?
Is this a good time to admit that I had some sympathy for The IRA?
I can also understand the rise of the IRA, particularly after the British Army seemed to be there to support those who had consistently deprived a significant proportion of the population of their rights. Now they're dictating the terms of the whole of the UK's withdrawal from the EU, it seems.
I’m afraid the English again meddling in other country’s affairs.
I can also understand the rise of the IRA, particularly after the British Army seemed to be there to support those who had consistently deprived a significant proportion of the population of their rights. Now they're dictating the terms of the whole of the UK's withdrawal from the EU, it seems.
I never did feel English. Too much diversity in my family background, largely Irish, probably Catholic.
When ammunition was issued it was planned and every round was recorded. I don't suppose the IRA had the same proceduresAnd? Are you suggesting that the massacre of civilians was planned?
A blanket is always more interesting when different coloured threads are used.
And? Are you suggesting that the massacre of civilians was planned?
Thanks for an honest opinion. It still upsets me to think of what was done to Irish Catholics.
An Army follows orders. Only those high up know what motivates their deployment. The Catholics thought that the Army was neutral, so better than the RUC. The actions of the Army suggested they weren't neutral at all. I equate the treatment of the Northern Ireland Catholics with the treatment of the black population in the USA.
And? Are you suggesting that the massacre of civilians was planned?
All ( bar one ) of my great grandparents came from Northern Ireland to Scotland.
I'm still clinging to the one Scottish thread in my ancestry.
An Army follows orders. Only those high up know what motivates their deployment. The Catholics thought that the Army was neutral, so better than the RUC. The actions of the Army suggested they weren't neutral at all. I equate the treatment of the Northern Ireland Catholics with the treatment of the black population in the USA.
All ( bar one ) of my great grandparents came from Northern Ireland to Scotland.
I'm still clinging to the one Scottish thread in my ancestry.
So what’s wrong with the Northern Irish?
My neighbour, who served in Northern Ireland many years ago, told me that they were sent there to protect Irish Catholics. I'm not sure how this was supposed to work, but he is an honest man and I have never had reason to disbelieve him.
All ( bar one ) of my great grandparents came from Northern Ireland to Scotland.
I'm still clinging to the one Scottish thread in my ancestry.
I don't know why, there's nothing wrong with having Northern Irish roots in my opinion.
My neighbour, who served in Northern Ireland many years ago, told me that they were sent there to protect Irish Catholics. I'm not sure how this was supposed to work, but he is an honest man and I have never had reason to disbelieve him.
I believe the troops were welcomed at first by the Northern Irish Catholics.
I knew a lady who had first hand knowledge of the way SOME of the troops treated the Catholic population.
Gradually trust was lost.
Goodness me!
So far two folk have misconstrued my post and both are sceptics. @)(++(*
There's nothing wrong with having Northern Irish roots nor do I think there is anything wrong with being Northern Irish .
I said all bar one of my great grandparents were from Northern Ireland which means all my grand parents and my parents were Scottish so I am clinging to the one Scottish ancestry thread I have, as I feel Scottish not Northern Irish.
I believe the troops were welcomed at first by the Northern Irish Catholics.
I knew a lady who had first hand knowledge of the way SOME of the troops treated the Catholic population.
Gradually trust was lost.
That's exactly what happened..
As I said, it doesn't really matter, does it? Over time immigrants do identify more with their country of birth than with the country their ancestors left. My husband was the product of a 'mixed' marriage. His Protestant paternal grandmother wouldn't let him or his siblings into her house, although they had relationships with their paternal grandfather outside the house. Consequently his upbringing and influences were Irish Catholic. He identified himself as English, nevertheless.
Don’t say you were there?
I never did identify as English, although I don't know why. In London when I was a child people were really horrible to Irish Catholics which did upset me, I never understood that either.In the words of the mighty Mode
In the words of the mighty Mode
“People are people,
So why should it be,
That you and I should get along so awfully?”
Truly ome of pop’s most insightful lyrics @)(++(*
You didn't have to be there to have some idea of what was going on. It was often bloody awful. And No, I wasn't there either.
Just a trite remark from you in ignorance. But probably not your fault.
Don’t say you were there?