UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on May 19, 2020, 11:44:22 PM
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From https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf part of an Appeal Court document.
"17. Shortly after the marriage Sheila’s mental health began to fail and the couple divorced in
May 1982. During 1983 Sheila was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and subsequently was
diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. In March 1985 she was re-admitted to hospital
before being discharged a little under four weeks later. For the months before their death,
the children had been living with their father, although seeing their mother frequently. On 4
August 1985 (three days before the killings) Colin Caffell had taken his ex-wife and
children to spend a few days with their grandparents at the farm in Essex."
Did Collin Caffell have a watertight alibi for that night?
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From https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf part of an Appeal Court document.
"17. Shortly after the marriage Sheila’s mental health began to fail and the couple divorced in
May 1982. During 1983 Sheila was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and subsequently was
diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. In March 1985 she was re-admitted to hospital
before being discharged a little under four weeks later. For the months before their death,
the children had been living with their father, although seeing their mother frequently. On 4
August 1985 (three days before the killings) Colin Caffell had taken his ex-wife and
children to spend a few days with their grandparents at the farm in Essex."
Did Collin Caffell have a watertight alibi for that night?
4th August? why, whats your thinking?
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4th August? why, whats your thinking?
"Did Collin Caffell have a watertight alibi for the night of the murders?" Not the alibi for the day he brought the kids to White House Farm.
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"Did Collin Caffell have a watertight alibi for the night of the murders?" Not the alibi for the day he brought the kids to White House Farm.
Of course he did.
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Of course he did.
What was it then?
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What was it then?
Have you read anything on the case yet?
Why does he need an alibi?
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Have you read anything on the case yet?
Why does he need an alibi?
I doubt he does, but what's the answer to Rob's question?
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Have you read anything on the case yet?
Why does he need an alibi?
He is part of the family that was murdered, so I thought it would be normal to check his alibi. The time of death was not established beyond saying they all died that night.
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He is part of the family that was murdered, so I thought it would be normal to check his alibi. The time of death was not established beyond saying they all died that night.
In my opinion since the police had been pointed in the direction of murder/suicide by Bamber's sworn narrative why on earth would the police question innocent victims about their whereabouts at the time of the massacre?
All this time after the event and the information we have to hand, I have to admit to my dismay when I saw the thread title.
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In my opinion since the police had been pointed in the direction of murder/suicide by Bamber's sworn narrative why on earth would the police question innocent victims about their whereabouts at the time of the massacre?
All this time after the event and the information we have to hand, I have to admit to my dismay when I saw the thread title.
Are you referring to Jeremy Bamber's first statement? What was the date of that and is it available to be read?
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From https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf part of an Appeal Court document.
"17. Shortly after the marriage Sheila’s mental health began to fail and the couple divorced in
May 1982. During 1983 Sheila was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and subsequently was
diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. In March 1985 she was re-admitted to hospital
before being discharged a little under four weeks later. For the months before their death,
the children had been living with their father, although seeing their mother frequently. On 4
August 1985 (three days before the killings) Colin Caffell had taken his ex-wife and
children to spend a few days with their grandparents at the farm in Essex."
Did Collin Caffell have a watertight alibi for that night?
I think (but I'm not certain) that he lived with his then-girlfriend, Heather, so I would think his whereabouts would be confirmed by her, if they needed to be. He drove back home from Essex to London a few days before the incident and was at home when the news was broken to him by two WPCs, who visited him.
If Jeremy did this, then Colin Caffell is the biggest surviving victim of the incident and he ought to have everybody's unqualified sympathy. I must admit - and I feel slightly ashamed to say this - I have never been able to feel complete sympathy for him, though. I'm not sure why. I can't put my finger on it, but I've never taken to him. I have always thought there is something fundamentally disingenuous about him.
But a murderer? No. No way. Impressions aside, he had no motive at all, I think he loved the twins, and he did not have (nor does he have) any significant mental health issues, to anyone's knowledge. Has he any knowledge of or association with guns at all or even ever fired a gun? I'd be surprised. He's just a normal man caught up in it, and quite genial. I struggle to even imagine him losing his temper, never mind murdering anybody.
New angles are welcome, though, so if you have one, let's hear it. Putting my legal hat on, I would take great care when making novel accusations against specific surviving individuals. It's one thing to 'do a Mike' and say David Boutflour was the Hunched Man, or whatever - I doubt the English libel courts will be much interested, either way - it's quite another thing to accuse a harmless, genial, naive sculptor who's done generous rehabilitation work in prison with lifers of being a murderer himself.
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I think (but I'm not certain) that he lived with his then-girlfriend, Heather, so I would think his whereabouts would be confirmed by her, if they needed to be. He drove back home from Essex to London a few days before the incident and was at home when the news was broken to him by two WPCs, who visited him.
If Jeremy did this, then Colin Caffell is the biggest surviving victim of the incident and he ought to have everybody's unqualified sympathy. I must admit - and I feel slightly ashamed to say this - I have never been able to feel complete sympathy for him, though. I'm not sure why. I can't put my finger on it, but I've never taken to him. I have always thought there is something fundamentally disingenuous about him.
But a murderer? No. No way. Impressions aside, he had no motive at all, I think he loved the twins, and he did not have (nor does he have) any significant mental health issues, to anyone's knowledge. Has he any knowledge of or association with guns at all or even ever fired a gun? He's just a normal man caught up in it, and quite genial. I struggle to even imagine him losing his temper, never mind murdering anybody.
New angles are welcome, though, so if you have one, let's hear it. Putting my legal hat on, I would take great care when making novel accusations against specific surviving individuals. It's one thing to 'do a Mike' and say David Boutflour was the Hunched Man, or whatever - I doubt the English libel courts will be much interested, either way - it's quite another thing to accuse a harmless, genial, naive sculptor who's done generous rehabilitation work in prison with lifers of being a murderer himself.
Beautifully insightful, Brancher
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Beautifully insightful, Brancher
That's kind, thank you, but I feel slightly ashamed of myself for not completely taking to him, given that he has been horribly victimised here. He's a man who, in every facet of his being, cries out to be liked, but I can't like him. Is there something wrong with me or have my spidey-senses picked up something off-key about him? I tend to be right in my 'gut' judgement about people, for reasons I won't go into.
But he's not a fundamentally bad man, let alone a murderer, I'm convinced of that. Indeed, the very question is surely superfluous.
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There’s thinking out of the box, and then there’s just plain absurdity. Can we not do this? Hasn’t the man suffered enough without being put in the frame for murders he very clearly and obviously had nothing to do with?
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That's kind, thank you, but I feel slightly ashamed of myself for not completely taking to him, given that he has been horribly victimised here. He's a man who, in every facet of his being, cries out to be liked, but I can't like him. Is there something wrong with me or have my spidey-senses picked up something off-key about him? I tend to be right in my 'gut' judgement about people, for reasons I won't go into.
But he's not a fundamentally bad man, let alone a murderer, I'm convinced of that. Indeed, the very question is surely superfluous.
Is it possible that you've picked up that he wasn't a comfortable fit with the Bambers? I don't see him as a "man's man", but rather, aesthetic types with esoteric interests. I imagine him to have been a loving, gentle, and rather lenient father. I can't help but feel that, had it not been for her background, which I think she was at odds with, they may have been a good match.
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There’s thinking out of the box, and then there’s just plain absurdity. Can we not do this? Hasn’t the man suffered enough without being put in the frame for murders he very clearly and obviously had nothing to do with?
Sorry. Though in no way was I implying any involvement on his part, nor did I sense any from Brancher or I wouldn't have responded.
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There’s thinking out of the box, and then there’s just plain absurdity. Can we not do this? Hasn’t the man suffered enough without being put in the frame for murders he very clearly and obviously had nothing to do with?
Rob is just learning about the case and asking questions, and that's perfectly reasonable, IMO.
I bet the police questioned Colin re his alibi.
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Are you referring to Jeremy Bamber's first statement? What was the date of that and is it available to be read?
I'm talking about Bamber's ringside seat at the crime scene and the use he made of it.
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Rob is just learning about the case and asking questions, and that's perfectly reasonable, IMO.
I bet the police questioned Colin re his alibi.
Why would they? They were convinced Sheila did it, until they realised it was much more likely to be Jeremy.
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Rob is just learning about the case and asking questions, and that's perfectly reasonable, IMO.
I bet the police questioned Colin re his alibi.
If Rob wants to know more about the case perhaps he should watch the series or read one of the several good books on the subject, rather than starting threads asking such questions?
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If Rob wants to know more about the case perhaps he should watch the series or read one of the several good books on the subject, rather than starting threads asking such questions?
Good advice.
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I think (but I'm not certain) that he lived with his then-girlfriend, Heather, so I would think his whereabouts would be confirmed by her, if they needed to be. He drove back home from Essex to London a few days before the incident and was at home when the news was broken to him by two WPCs, who visited him.
If Jeremy did this, then Colin Caffell is the biggest surviving victim of the incident and he ought to have everybody's unqualified sympathy. I must admit - and I feel slightly ashamed to say this - I have never been able to feel complete sympathy for him, though. I'm not sure why. I can't put my finger on it, but I've never taken to him. I have always thought there is something fundamentally disingenuous about him.
But a murderer? No. No way. Impressions aside, he had no motive at all, I think he loved the twins, and he did not have (nor does he have) any significant mental health issues, to anyone's knowledge. Has he any knowledge of or association with guns at all or even ever fired a gun? I'd be surprised. He's just a normal man caught up in it, and quite genial. I struggle to even imagine him losing his temper, never mind murdering anybody.
New angles are welcome, though, so if you have one, let's hear it. Putting my legal hat on, I would take great care when making novel accusations against specific surviving individuals. It's one thing to 'do a Mike' and say David Boutflour was the Hunched Man, or whatever - I doubt the English libel courts will be much interested, either way - it's quite another thing to accuse a harmless, genial, naive sculptor who's done generous rehabilitation work in prison with lifers of being a murderer himself.
I think some get carried away and forget that these are real people who suffered real loss - Colin more than anyone. Colin never was a suspect and never should have been. I'm a bit astounded that someone would even suggest it.
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That's kind, thank you, but I feel slightly ashamed of myself for not completely taking to him, given that he has been horribly victimised here. He's a man who, in every facet of his being, cries out to be liked, but I can't like him. Is there something wrong with me or have my spidey-senses picked up something off-key about him? I tend to be right in my 'gut' judgement about people, for reasons I won't go into.
But he's not a fundamentally bad man, let alone a murderer, I'm convinced of that. Indeed, the very question is surely superfluous.
By all accounts he’s a hugely popular man with a large circle of friends....he was possibly naive when he was young (I’m sure you were too), but he’s made a very good life for himself considering the horrific trauma he had to endure of losing his two sons to a greedy, gutless psychopath
You certainly have a “gift” if you can decide by your gut instincts whether you like someone or not, without never having met them...perhaps you should put your extraordinary gift to use 🙂
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By all accounts he’s a hugely popular man with a large circle of friends....he was possibly naive when he was young (I’m sure you were too), but he’s made a very good life for himself considering the horrific trauma he had to endure of losing his two sons to a greedy, gutless psychopath
You certainly have a “gift” if you can decide by your gut instincts whether you like someone or not, without never having met them...perhaps you should put your extraordinary gift to use 🙂
Literally every single poster on this Forum is expressing views one way or another about people they have never met.
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Why would they? They were convinced Sheila did it, until they realised it was much more likely to be Jeremy.
Colin does say, in his book, that, at first, he felt the police could be looking at him as a suspect. That is why I said they might well have asked him where he was that night. Of course, they would have been happy with his answer.
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Colin does say, in his book, that, at first, he felt the police could be looking at him as a suspect. That is why I said they might well have asked him where he was that night. Of course, they would have been happy with his answer.
Fair enough. I haven’t read his book yet.
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Fair enough. I haven’t read his book yet.
It's worth a read---interesting to hear his take on the relationship between Jeremy and Sheila and their parents.
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Colin does say, in his book, that, at first, he felt the police could be looking at him as a suspect. That is why I said they might well have asked him where he was that night. Of course, they would have been happy with his answer.
Colin was never a suspect.
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There’s thinking out of the box, and then there’s just plain absurdity. Can we not do this? Hasn’t the man suffered enough without being put in the frame for murders he very clearly and obviously had nothing to do with?
All I'm asking is the question the police would have asked him . Where was he on that night? If his alibi was that he was with his girlfriend, that might be sufficient.
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All I asking is the question the police would have asked him . Where was he on that night? If his alibi was that he was with his girlfriend, that might be sufficient.
He was never a suspect.
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Colin was never a suspect.
IMO that must be that he had a confirmed alibi for that night. I was just wondering if anyone was familiar with it.
He was never a suspect.
If he was never a suspect that in itself could be a fault. Everyone in the family group should have been considered as a possible suspect.
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IMO that must be that he had a confirmed alibi for that night. I was just wondering if anyone was familiar with it. If he was never a suspect that in itself could be a fault. Everyone in the family group should have been considered as a possible suspect.
Why would he be considered a suspect when Jeremy Bamber informed the police that he had a call from his father stating that SHEILA had gone crazy and had the gun?
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Why would he be considered a suspect when Jeremy Bamber informed the police that he had a call from his father stating that SHEILA had gone crazy and had the gun?
So are you thinking that phonecall actually happened? If it did happen Jeremey wasn't at WHF. If it didn't happen I'm not sure how anyone can reliably say what was happening.
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So are you thinking that phonecall actually happened? If it did happen Jeremey wasn't at WHF. If it didn't happen I'm not sure how anyone can reliably say what was happening.
No, I do not think the phone call happened and if it didn't happen then Jeremy is obviously a liar and a suspect! If it didn't happen then he made it up and if he made it up how did he know their was 'trouble at the farm' - why? Because he was responsible.
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So are you thinking that phonecall actually happened? If it did happen Jeremey wasn't at WHF. If it didn't happen I'm not sure how anyone can reliably say what was happening.
You seem to be suggesting some collusion between Jeremy and Colin, which is absolutely ridiculous if you don’t mind me saying so.
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You seem to be suggesting some collusion between Jeremy and Colin, which is absolutely ridiculous if you don’t mind me saying so.
Definitely not. I'm trying to allow all possibilities and to see which one closes itself down from the evidence.
It would be possible to have collusion. What bit of evidence proves to you there was no collusion?
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Definitely not. I'm trying to allow all possibilities and to see which one closes itself down from the evidence.
It would be possible to have collusion. What bit of evidence proves to you there was no collusion?
Astounded @)(++(*. How can you have evidence of something that didn't happen? There is no evidence - hence no link. Take note of the phone call that Jeremy claimed he received and start from there. If you don't know the case then at least read up on the basics - it will help.
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Definitely not. I'm trying to allow all possibilities and to see which one closes itself down from the evidence.
It would be possible to have collusion. What bit of evidence proves to you there was no collusion?
There is literally no point continuing this discussion, it’s idiotic.
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There is literally no point continuing this discussion, it’s idiotic.
Glad it's not just me!
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Astounded @)(++(*. How can you have evidence of something that didn't happen? There is no evidence - hence no link. Take note of the phone call that Jeremy claimed he received and start from there. If you don't know the case then at least read up on the basics - it will help.
Well I did and you are left with it may have happened. There is nothing to prove it didn't.
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Well I did and you are left with it may have happened. There is nothing to prove it didn't.
There may well be little green men on the moon. They may have gone into hiding when pictures were taken. How do we prove they're not there?
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There may well be little green men on the moon. They may have gone into hiding when pictures were taken. How do we prove they're not there?
You get NASA to go and have a look.
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You get NASA to go and have a look.
They didn’t find any but does that prove conclusively that there aren’t any? #celestialteapot
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They didn’t find any but does that prove conclusively that there aren’t any? #celestialteapot
NASA has the upper hand on this one.
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They didn’t find any but does that prove conclusively that there aren’t any? #celestialteapot
Perzackerly, VS.
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Well I did and you are left with it may have happened. There is nothing to prove it didn't.
Except the facts.
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Except the facts.
"..... it may have happened. There is nothing to prove it didn't." I think it could have happened but at a different time.
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"..... it may have happened. There is nothing to prove it didn't." I think it could have happened but at a different time.
There is lots to prove it didn't happen.
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There is lots to prove it didn't happen.
Like what? Can you list some of the reasons if they spring to mind please?
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Like what? Can you list some of the reasons if they spring to mind please?
You n need to do some reading on the case and then come back.
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You n need to do some reading on the case and then come back.
We are working on this together remember.
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We are working on this together remember.
That's certainly a possibility but without knowing much about the case you have come up with theories that can be immediately discounted. Just read one of the books (CAL's) and you'll see why or read the documents online.
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That's certainly a possibility but without knowing much about the case you have come up with theories that can be immediately discounted. Just read one of the books (CAL's) and you'll see why or read the documents online.
Show me where the mini theory is discounted. I promise you, if you show me a fault in it I'll move on.
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Show me where the mini theory is discounted. I promise you, if you show me a fault in it I'll move on.
I have answered this on another thread - you ignored it.
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I have answered this on another thread - you ignored it.
I must have missed. I have found it again looking through "Your Posts" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11504.msg592786#msg592786
"Because Neville he was still working in the field, bringing in the last trailer of rape seed.
June was talking to her sister at that time
Bamber was on the phone to Julie
You scenario still has Bamber being a liar - but it didn't happen so ....."
So you reckon Neville Bamber was still working at 10:00 PM the night before the murders. That might be so, but all I'm trying to establish is how early the trouble started that night.
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Not that I necessarily condone this thread and its speculation, but I'm going to try and assist the OP by clarifying what I think he (or she?) is driving at.
I think what is being said here can be reduced to this:
(i). If we adopt the hypothetical that Sheila did this, there is a further possibility that Sheila had assistance that Nevill did not surmise or detect before he made the call to Jeremy.
(ii). This assistance could have come from Jeremy of course, but what's being suggested is the possibility it came from a third party instead of (or maybe even in addition to) Jeremy.
(iii). One avenue (among many) this leads us to explore is to ask who else Sheila had associations with.
(iv). To be honest, Colin Caffell is not the first person that springs to mind, for a number of reasons. He has to be the most unlikely suspect. I'd suspect Crispy of wrong-doing before him.
But let's ask the question anyway:
Does Colin Caffell have a solid alibi for that night? If he does, then unless he had astonishing powers of suggestion, he has to be excluded.
On the other hand, if he has no alibi, then this does not imply he had anything to do with it, but it may be fair to ask what was he doing that night.
My understanding is that the police never made inquiries of him. No doubt this is partly because they found him at his house in London, and (I assume) his then-girlfriend will verify that he was there that night, if she was living with him.
Another, more neutral, way of posing the question would be this:
1. If we assume a hypothetical in which Sheila did this, do we also accept that Sheila had to have acted alone or did she need assistance?
2. If she needed assistance, are we saying it had to be Jeremy (so Jeremy is guilty anyway)?
3. If we are excluding Jeremy, then who else is in the picture?
I hope that captures it. Again, I don't condone this line of speculation necessarily. Please don't attack the messenger, I'm just assisting the OP by trying to bring clarity to things and set out some parameters.
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Not that I necessarily condone this thread and its speculation, but I'm going to try and assist the OP by clarifying what I think he (or she?) is driving at.
I think what is being said here can be reduced to this:
(i). If we adopt the hypothetical that Sheila did this, there is a further possibility that Sheila had assistance that Nevill did not surmise or detect before he made the call to Jeremy.
(ii). This assistance could have come from Jeremy of course, but what's being suggested is the possibility it came from a third party instead of (or maybe even in addition to) Jeremy.
(iii). One avenue (among many) this leads us to explore is to ask who else Sheila had associations with.
(iv). To be honest, Colin Caffell is not the first person that springs to mind, for a number of reasons. He has to be the most unlikely suspect. I'd suspect Crispy of wrong-doing before him.
But let's ask the question anyway:
Does Colin Caffell have a solid alibi for that night? If he does, then unless he had astonishing powers of suggestion, he has to be excluded.
On the other hand, if he has no alibi, then this does not imply he had anything to do with it, but it may be fair to ask what was he doing that night.
My understanding is that the police never made inquiries of him. No doubt this is partly because they found him at his house in London, and (I assume) his then-girlfriend will verify that he was there that night, if she was living with him.
Another, more neutral, way of posing the question would be this:
1. If we assume a hypothetical in which Sheila did this, do we also accept that Sheila had to have acted alone or did she need assistance?
2. If she needed assistance, are we saying it had to be Jeremy (so Jeremy is guilty anyway)?
3. If we are excluding Jeremy, then who else is in the picture?
I hope that captures it. Again, I don't condone this line of speculation necessarily. Please don't attack the messenger, I'm just assisting the OP by trying to bring clarity to things and set out some parameters.
Colin is named in the title of the thread so the assertion is that it could have been him. Yes, he has a solid alibi and he was never a suspect - and rightly so.
I wouldn't be excluding Jeremy
And no shooting at you from me! 8((()*/
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Not that I necessarily condone this thread and its speculation, but I'm going to try and assist the OP by clarifying what I think he (or she?) is driving at.
I think what is being said here can be reduced to this:
(i). If we adopt the hypothetical that Sheila did this, there is a further possibility that Sheila had assistance that Nevill did not surmise or detect before he made the call to Jeremy.
(ii). This assistance could have come from Jeremy of course, but what's being suggested is the possibility it came from a third party instead of (or maybe even in addition to) Jeremy.
(iii). One avenue (among many) this leads us to explore is to ask who else Sheila had associations with.
(iv). To be honest, Colin Caffell is not the first person that springs to mind, for a number of reasons. He has to be the most unlikely suspect. I'd suspect Crispy of wrong-doing before him.
But let's ask the question anyway:
Does Colin Caffell have a solid alibi for that night? If he does, then unless he had astonishing powers of suggestion, he has to be excluded.
On the other hand, if he has no alibi, then this does not imply he had anything to do with it, but it may be fair to ask what was he doing that night.
My understanding is that the police never made inquiries of him. No doubt this is partly because they found him at his house in London, and (I assume) his then-girlfriend will verify that he was there that night, if she was living with him.
Another, more neutral, way of posing the question would be this:
1. If we assume a hypothetical in which Sheila did this, do we also accept that Sheila had to have acted alone or did she need assistance?
2. If she needed assistance, are we saying it had to be Jeremy (so Jeremy is guilty anyway)?
3. If we are excluding Jeremy, then who else is in the picture?
I hope that captures it. Again, I don't condone this line of speculation necessarily. Please don't attack the messenger, I'm just assisting the OP by trying to bring clarity to things and set out some parameters.
There's a glaringly obvious question you've omitted. In your scenario, Sheila appears to be organized and in command of her actions. Jeremy's entire synopsis is based on Sheila having a psychotic episode which he goes on to expound,at length, to the police.
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That's kind, thank you, but I feel slightly ashamed of myself for not completely taking to him, given that he has been horribly victimised here. He's a man who, in every facet of his being, cries out to be liked, but I can't like him. Is there something wrong with me or have my spidey-senses picked up something off-key about him? I tend to be right in my 'gut' judgement about people, for reasons I won't go into.
But he's not a fundamentally bad man, let alone a murderer, I'm convinced of that. Indeed, the very question is surely superfluous.
What do you mean by Colin “cries out to be liked”?
Where/how often have you seen him “crying out to be liked”?
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We are working on this together remember.
As Caroline suggested, Robbitybob, it’s best you read up on the case first.
You’ll have some knowledge on it then and won’t need to ask questions on things that were established 35 years ago, such as: was Colin involved?
No. He definitely was not. It’s been substantiated 100% — and he was never a suspect. It’s akin to asking if the Pope was involved...Colin was in London when Jeremy killed his sons and family; he was with his girlfriend at home; he had no motive to kill his own sons, Sheila, or June and Nevill, and he wasn’t/is a psychopath. Nor was he greedy for money.
Quite frankly, the suggestion is bizarre...but you don’t know about the case
Try to read up on it, you’ll learn all the background then 😊
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Colin is named in the title of the thread so the assertion is that it could have been him. Yes, he has a solid alibi and he was never a suspect - and rightly so.
I wouldn't be excluding Jeremy
And no shooting at you from me! 8((()*/
Once again you make a claim without providing supporting evidence. You say "Yes, he has a solid alibi" but don't tell us what that was.
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As Caroline suggested, Robbitybob, it’s best you read up on the case first.
You’ll have some knowledge on it then and won’t need to ask questions on things that were established 35 years ago, such as: was Colin involved?
No. He definitely was not. It’s been substantiated 100% — and he was never a suspect. It’s akin to asking if the Pope was involved...Colin was in London when Jeremy killed his sons and family; he was with his girlfriend at home; he had no motive to kill his own sons, Sheila, or June and Nevill, and he wasn’t/is a psychopath. Nor was he greedy for money.
Quite frankly, the suggestion is bizarre...but you don’t know about the case
Try to read up on it, you’ll learn all the background then 😊
I've listened to Colin talking and he seems a reasonable guy. All I wanted to know was whether he had an alibi for the night in question. Simply being in London doesn't seem to be enough for there was still sufficient time to drive the round trip in the hours available. But if it happened he was able to confirm he was in London that would be a different matter.
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Once again you make a claim without providing supporting evidence. You say "Yes, he has a solid alibi" but don't tell us what that was.
Sorry to jump in....
Robbitybob, when you say Caroline “hasn’t told US” who do you mean by “us”? You and Brancher?
Absolutely everyone knows Colin wasn’t a suspect and wasn’t in any way involved. Besides having a cast iron alibi he had no motive. Neither was in Essex when Jeremy murdered them.
It’s a ludicrous suggestion. You’ve clearly read next to nothing about the case, so don’t you think you should first read what happened before asking questions that are absolutely baseless? It’s kind of wasting time...not just for people reading this, but your own, too. You may as well ask if the milkman killed them...that’s how silly your question is.
You can buy CAL’s book off Amazon — that’s the one that gives you ALL the correct FACTS.
Hope that helps.
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I've listened to Colin talking and he seems a reasonable guy. All I wanted to know was whether he had an alibi for the night in question. Simply being in London doesn't seem to be enough for there was still sufficient time to drive the round trip in the hours available. But if it happened he was able to confirm he was in London that would be a different matter.
He had an alibi
Don’t you think that was established at the time?
It’s a ludicrous suggestion and I can’t take you seriously
I remember when you got confused replying to me about a week ago...you said something like “I’m sorry, I can’t help you with any questions “ even though I hadn’t asked you ONE
You sound like you get confused...
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Sorry to jump in....
Robbitybob, when you say Caroline “hasn’t told US” who do you mean by “us”? You and Brancher?
Absolutely everyone knows Colin wasn’t a suspect and wasn’t in any way involved. Besides having a cast iron alibi he had no motive. Neither was in Essex when Jeremy murdered them.
It’s a ludicrous suggestion. You’ve clearly read next to nothing about the case, so don’t you think you should first read what happened before asking questions that are absolutely baseless? It’s kind of wasting time...not just for people reading this, but your own, too. You may as well ask if the milkman killed them...that’s how silly your question is.
You can buy CAL’s book off Amazon — that’s the one that gives you ALL the correct FACTS.
Hope that helps.
I feel we are going around in circles here. You say "Besides having a cast-iron alibi", well I ask what was the alibi.
Is it just that he was in London, yet I've been told one can drive from London to the farm in less than 2 hours.
So he still remains a possible suspect unless there was a way of confirming he had remained in London.
An extremely high proportion of murders are committed by family members. So there may be a hidden motive in there somewhere. I'm not saying he is guilty, all I'm asking is what is his alibi?
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I feel we are going around in circles here. You say "Besides having a cast-iron alibi", well I ask what was the alibi.
Is it just that he was in London, yet I've been told one can drive from London to the farm in less than 2 hours.
So he still remains a possible suspect unless there was a way of confirming he had remained in London.
An extremely high proportion of murders are committed by family members. So there may be a hidden motive in there somewhere. I'm not saying he is guilty, all I'm asking is what is his alibi?
I don't imagine Colin would have known one end of a gun from another, although I believe he'd been beating -probably when he and Sheila were courting- but it wouldn't come as a surprise to learn he was anti gun use.
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I feel we are going around in circles here. You say "Besides having a cast-iron alibi", well I ask what was the alibi.
Is it just that he was in London, yet I've been told one can drive from London to the farm in less than 2 hours.
So he still remains a possible suspect unless there was a way of confirming he had remained in London.
An extremely high proportion of murders are committed by family members. So there may be a hidden motive in there somewhere. I'm not saying he is guilty, all I'm asking is what is his alibi?
He was at home with his partner - what other alibi would you expect him to have?
What was his motive to kill the Bambers, his ex wife and only children?
We seem to be starting from a point of impossibility and working up. Don't really think that's how the cops do it.
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I feel we are going around in circles here. You say "Besides having a cast-iron alibi", well I ask what was the alibi.
Is it just that he was in London, yet I've been told one can drive from London to the farm in less than 2 hours.
So he still remains a possible suspect unless there was a way of confirming he had remained in London.
An extremely high proportion of murders are committed by family members. So there may be a hidden motive in there somewhere. I'm not saying he is guilty, all I'm asking is what is his alibi?
It WAS confirmed Colin was at HOME in London with his girlfriend all night long.
Don’t you think the police knew that? Or do you think you and Brancher — who appear to know next to nothing about the case – have suddenly come up with a lightbulb moment?
Don’t you think the police knew all these facts back then?
You ask the same questions over and over, but if you spent a little time to read the events of the night on the official documents you’ll find all the answers there.
The only thing you’ve said that’s correct is that family members are often the prime suspects, and Jeremy was a family member.
Jeremy was also the one who claimed Nevill phoned him at approximately 3:15am and said Sheila had gone berserk and got the gun.
So, was Jeremy lying or hallucinating?
To even suggest Colin drove up to WHF and murdered the sons he worshipped including everyone else is quite frankly, nuts.
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It WAS confirmed Colin was at HOME in London with his girlfriend all night long.
Don’t you think the police knew that? Or do you think you and Brancher — who appear to know next to nothing about the case – have suddenly come up with a lightbulb moment?
Don’t you think the police knew all these facts back then?
You ask the same questions over and over, but if you spent a little time to read the events of the night on the official documents you’ll find all the answers there.
The only thing you’ve said that’s correct is that family members are often the prime suspects, and Jeremy was a family member.
Jeremy was also the one who claimed Nevill phoned him at approximately 3:15am and said Sheila had gone berserk and got the gun.
So, was Jeremy lying or hallucinating?
To even suggest Colin drove up to WHF and murdered the sons he worshipped including everyone else is quite frankly, nuts.
I'm thinking more what if "Colin drove up to WHF" and found Sheila had murdered his sons what would happen after that?
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I'm thinking more what if "Colin drove up to WHF" and found Sheila had murdered his sons what would happen after that?
What reason would Colin have to drive to WHF around midnight of Tuesday/Wednesday, when it was arranged that he'd be picking them up at a reasonable time on Thursday?
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17. Shortly after the marriage Sheila’s mental health began to fail and the couple divorced in
May 1982. During 1983 Sheila was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and subsequently was
diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. In March 1985 she was re-admitted to hospital
before being discharged a little under four weeks later. For the months before their death,
the children had been living with their father, although seeing their mother frequently. On 4
August 1985 (three days before the killings) Colin Caffell had taken his ex-wife and
children to spend a few days with their grandparents at the farm in Essex.
https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf page 4.
23. Barbara Wilson, the farm secretary telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 p.m. and spoke to
Nevill Bamber. He was not cheerful and Mrs Wilson thought she had interrupted an
argument. In evidence she described Nevill as abrupt, very impatient and very short. Pamela
Boutflour, June Bamber’s sister also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 p.m. She
spoke first with Sheila Caffell who was quiet and then to her (page 5)
38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the
previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell’s body suggested to him that the wounds
had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this
was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been
self-inflicted. (page 7)
39. Dr Craig also saw the appellant outside the farmhouse. He said he appeared to be in a state
of shock. At one stage he broke down and cried and he also appeared to vomit. The
appellant told the doctor there had been “some considerable discussion” amongst the family
about the future of Sheila Caffell’s children the previous evening, during which the question of their being fostered had been raised. He said that the family was concerned that his sister
had been abusing the children.
65. As regards the twins, four of the five injuries suffered by Daniel were caused when the gun
was held within one foot of his head, the fifth was from over two feet away. The three
wounds to Nicholas were contact or close proximity shots.
83. Colin Caffell (her ex-husband) said that although there had been violent outbursts by Sheila
during their time together, this had involved the throwing of pots and pans and the
occasional striking of him. To his knowledge she had never harmed the children or behaved
violently towards anybody else. (page 14)
154. In dealing with the second question, whether Sheila Caffell may have killed the others and
then committed suicide, the judge made clear that answering this question involved a
number of different considerations. He suggested that one was “clearly of paramount
importance”, namely whether the second and fatal shot to Sheila Caffell was fired with the
silencer on. If it was, she could not have fired that shot. He made clear that there were
other considerations and the jury could come to the conclusion that Sheila Caffell did not
carry out the killings “even without reference to the sound moderator”. He added that the
evidence relating to the sound moderator could, however, “on its own” lead them to
conclude that the appellant was guilty.
Was Jeremy Bamber even in the house at that time?
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What reason would Colin have to drive to WHF around midnight of Tuesday/Wednesday, when it was arranged that he'd be picking them up at a reasonable time on Thursday?
Because they were in the thick of having an argument over the custody of Colin's children, Surely he needs to be involved. Wasn't Colin planning on taking them to Norway that week?
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Because they were in the thick of having an argument over the custody of Colin's children, Surely he needs to be involved. Wasn't Colin planning on taking them to Norway that week?
The planned trip to Norway was the reason for him picking them up on Thursday. I don't think Sheila and Colin were in daily contact. They hadn't been together for the best part of 6 years. There's only Jeremy's word for it that there was an argument, regarding the boys' care, going on. In any case, no point in him being involved in a discussion. He could have vetoed anything put forward by the Bambers. Unless it had slipped your memory, telephones had been invented. It would have made rather more sense to have called, rather than turn up at midnight when everyone was in bed.
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The planned trip to Norway was the reason for him picking them up on Thursday. I don't think Sheila and Colin were in daily contact. They hadn't been together for the best part of 6 years. There's only Jeremy's word for it that there was an argument, regarding the boys' care, going on. In any case, no point in him being involved in a discussion. He could have vetoed anything put forward by the Bambers. Unless it had slipped your memory, telephones had been invented. It would have made rather more sense to have called, rather than turn up at midnight when everyone was in bed.
There seems to be more to it: "Daniel and Nicholas Caffell
Daniel and Nicholas Caffell (born 22 June 1979, six when they died) were born to Sheila and Colin Caffell, who married in 1977 and divorced in 1980. Colin was an art student when he met Sheila. Both parents were involved in the children's upbringing after the divorce, although the boys were briefly placed in foster care in London, in 1982 and 1983, because of Sheila's health problems. For several months before the murders, they had been living with Colin in his home in Kilburn, north London, not far from Sheila's home in Maida Vale.
A week-long visit to White House Farm had been arranged for the August at the Bambers' request; the plan was that the boys would visit their grandparents with Sheila before going on holiday to Norway with their father. Daniel and Nicholas were reluctant to stay at the farm. They disliked that June made them pray, and in the car on the way asked their father to speak to her about it. In addition Daniel had become a vegetarian and was worried about being forced to eat meat. When their father dropped them off at the house on 4 August, it was the last time he saw them. The boys are buried together in Highgate Cemetery. Sheila was cremated, and the urn with her ashes was placed in their coffin." http://www.popflock.com/learn?s=White_House_Farm_murders
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Because they were in the thick of having an argument over the custody of Colin's children, Surely he needs to be involved. Wasn't Colin planning on taking them to Norway that week?
They weren't in any argument!
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There seems to be more to it: "Daniel and Nicholas Caffell
Daniel and Nicholas Caffell (born 22 June 1979, six when they died) were born to Sheila and Colin Caffell, who married in 1977 and divorced in 1980. Colin was an art student when he met Sheila. Both parents were involved in the children's upbringing after the divorce, although the boys were briefly placed in foster care in London, in 1982 and 1983, because of Sheila's health problems. For several months before the murders, they had been living with Colin in his home in Kilburn, north London, not far from Sheila's home in Maida Vale.
A week-long visit to White House Farm had been arranged for the August at the Bambers' request; the plan was that the boys would visit their grandparents with Sheila before going on holiday to Norway with their father. Daniel and Nicholas were reluctant to stay at the farm. They disliked that June made them pray, and in the car on the way asked their father to speak to her about it. In addition Daniel had become a vegetarian and was worried about being forced to eat meat. When their father dropped them off at the house on 4 August, it was the last time he saw them. The boys are buried together in Highgate Cemetery. Sheila was cremated, and the urn with her ashes was placed in their coffin." http://www.popflock.com/learn?s=White_House_Farm_murders
Your point being? What are you trying to suggest might have caused him, having taken them to Essex on August 4th, to return around midnight of the 6th/7th when he was due to pick them up on the 8th?
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Your point being? What are you trying to suggest might have caused him, having taken them to Essex on August 4th, to return around midnight of the 6th/7th when he was due to pick them up on the 8th?
There is absolutely no motive. I find this whole things completely distasteful!
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There is absolutely no motive. I find this whole things completely distasteful!
I concur. His posts are becoming rather like d**k pics. Not necessary and not clever, and not nice.
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They weren't in any argument!
We don't know whether they were in an argument or not-------but I agree that Colin was not involved in it.
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We don't know whether they were in an argument or not-------but I agree that Colin was not involved in it.
Well, if we accept that Jeremy was telling the truth about the argument, I guess we have to accept that he may have been telling the truth about everything else.
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Because they were in the thick of having an argument over the custody of Colin's children, Surely he needs to be involved. Wasn't Colin planning on taking them to Norway that week?
Colin was taking the twins to Norway for a HOLIDAY visiting his sister
Do you think he suddenly thought “Oh, I will drive up to WHF and kill them all instead”
FGS...you seem completely out the loop
Unless you do some research you’ll confuse yourself even more.
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We don't know whether they were in an argument or not-------but I agree that Colin was not involved in it.
Of course we know Colin and Sheila weren't in any argument - like I said, I find this distasteful.
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Of course we know Colin and Sheila weren't in any argument - like I said, I find this distasteful.
Weren't in any argument when?
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Of course we know Colin and Sheila weren't in any argument - like I said, I find this distasteful.
I meant June, Nevill and Sheila, not Colin and Sheila !
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Weren't in any argument when?
Don't ask me, it's not my theory.
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I meant June, Nevill and Sheila, not Colin and Sheila !
Robert was talking about Colin and Sheila.
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Robert was talking about Colin and Sheila.
Oh, I see !! Hm-------.
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I concur. His posts are becoming rather like d**k pics. Not necessary and not clever, and not nice.
Yeh, I'm gonna stop that.
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They weren't in any argument!
There was evidence of that raised in the court trial against Jeremy as it is mention in the appeal notes https://murderpedia.org/male.B/images/bamber_jeremy/20011745.pdf
There were two phone calls to WHF that evening both noted the tension present.
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Your point being? What are you trying to suggest might have caused him, having taken them to Essex on August 4th, to return around midnight of the 6th/7th when he was due to pick them up on the 8th?
5 people died that night all could be capable of ringing Colin Caffell and let him know there was a discussion going on where they were discussing the fostering of his children. There was nothing stopping CC from turning up in person that night.
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There is absolutely no motive. I find this whole things completely distasteful!
A motive for what? I'm saying Colin would have been concerned for his children's welfare. He wasn't happy about leaving them there in the first place.
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We don't know whether they were in an argument or not-------but I agree that Colin was not involved in it.
And I'd agree, but at what stage could Colin have got involved? It would have only required a phone call from one of the persons later deceased, so we can never know if there was or wasn't a phone call, which got him involved at some stage.
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A motive for what? I'm saying Colin would have been concerned for his children's welfare. He wasn't happy about leaving them there in the first place.
I am talking about your constant request for an alibi
Once again you make a claim without providing supporting evidence. You say "Yes, he has a solid alibi" but don't tell us what that was.
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5 people died that night all could be capable of ringing Colin Caffell and let him know there was a discussion going on where they were discussing the fostering of his children. There was nothing stopping CC from turning up in person that night.
WHY? He was due to come anyway. Any discussion could have happened then, that's IF a discussion about fostering ever took place. I don't know how you do things in New Zealand, but in the main, it's not considered to be good form, here, to turn up unannounced, on someone's doorstep, when they've gone to bed.
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Colin was taking the twins to Norway for a HOLIDAY visiting his sister
Do you think he suddenly thought “Oh, I will drive up to WHF and kill them all instead”
FGS...you seem completely out the loop
Unless you do some research you’ll confuse yourself even more.
I challenge you to find a post where I suggest Colin "suddenly thought “Oh, I will drive up to WHF and kill them all instead”". It is you who is jumping to conclusions about what I am theorizing. Stop putting words into my mouth please.
Colin was only a 90-minute car ride away so all I'm saying is that it would be possible for Colin Caffall to turn up at the WHF at some stage during that evening/night/morning.
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Of course we know Colin and Sheila weren't in any argument - like I said, I find this distasteful.
Well in your opinion who was involved in the argument? Can a person be involved even though he is not present?
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Robert was talking about Colin and Sheila.
I have never said that. That is how you must have interpreted what I have said. Colin had plans to take the kids to Norway. Where is the evidence that the Bamber family agreed to that?
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Oh, I see !! Hm-------.
No that is untrue.
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A motive for what? I'm saying Colin would have been concerned for his children's welfare. He wasn't happy about leaving them there in the first place.
And I'm saying that there's no way on God's earth that Colin would have left London after 10.30pm to drive to WHF, knowing they'd all be in bed. What are you suggesting he was going to do? Pull two frightened little boys from their beds and take them back to London? Oh! SILLY me! I forgot. You're claiming he decided to kill them. 'Course, he'd then have to kill all the others so they couldn't tell. This is Colin you're talking about!!!!
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I have never said that. That is how you must have interpreted what I have said. Colin had plans to take the kids to Norway. Where is the evidence that the Bamber family agreed to that?
They could do nothing to prevent it. It wasn't they who had custody or jurisdiction.
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I am talking about your constant request for an alibi
IMO without a solid alibi you can't rule him out. Having an alibi that involves your girlfriend would be considered a soft alibi.
There was motive for him to turn up that night. God only knows at what stage Colin could have turned up. Were they all dead by that stage? In my theory the phone call to Jeremy (3:30 AM) could have been from Colin Caffell.
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I challenge you to find a post where I suggest Colin "suddenly thought “Oh, I will drive up to WHF and kill them all instead”". It is you who is jumping to conclusions about what I am theorizing. Stop putting words into my mouth please.
Colin was only a 90-minute car ride away so it all I'm saying is that it would be possible for him to turn up at the WHF at some stage during that evening/night/morning.
And I'm asking why would he? ONLY 90+ minutes may not be far for you, but it's a very long way here at night negotiating unlit back roads and lanes, and for what? We have NO idea what was said that night.
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IMO without a solid alibi you can't rule him out. Having an alibi that involves your girlfriend would be considered a soft alibi.
There was motive for him to turn up that night. God only knows at what stage Colin could have turned up. Were they all dead by that stage? In my theory the phone call to Jeremy (3:30 AM) could have been from Colin Caffell.
Does this theory involve hide and seek?
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IMO without a solid alibi you can't rule him out. Having an alibi that involves your girlfriend would be considered a soft alibi.
There was motive for him to turn up that night. God only knows at what stage Colin could have turned up. Were they all dead by that stage? In my theory the phone call to Jeremy (3:30 AM) could have been from Colin Caffell.
Without knowing what was said you can't say there was motive.
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They could do nothing to prevent it. It wasn't they who had custody or jurisdiction.
In NZ solo parents can't take their children overseas without permission from the other partner. If the Bambers didn't agree they could have stopped Colin taking the boys out of the country. Well, the story might be different in the UK but I'd be surprised if it was.
Does this theory involve hide and seek?
Possibly. I'm not accusing anyone of anything at this stage.
And I'm asking why would he? ONLY 90+ minutes may not be far for you, but it's a very long way here at night negotiating unlit back roads and lanes, and for what? We have NO idea what was said that night.
Exactly - "We have NO idea what was said that night".
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Without knowing what was said you can't say there was motive.
As I understand it "a motive" is something attributed to the situation by a third party.
We can say there was a motive to attend the discussion at WHF as the custody of Colin's children was being discussed.
"In criminal law, motive in itself is not an element of any given crime; however, the legal system typically allows motive to be proven to make plausible the accused's reasons for committing a crime, at least when those motives may be obscure or hard to identify with.
Motive (law) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Motive_(law)"
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CC returned to his pad where his live-in girlfriend was waiting who accompanied him to Essex the following morning.
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Well in your opinion who was involved in the argument? Can a person be involved even though he is not present?
WHAT argument?!!! You have to keep pushing an argument about the children to further your "solid alibi" mantra.
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WHY? He was due to come anyway. Any discussion could have happened then, that's IF a discussion about fostering ever took place. I don't know how you do things in New Zealand, but in the main, it's not considered to be good form, here, to turn up unannounced, on someone's doorstep, when they've gone to bed.
Who went to bed that night?
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Who went to bed that night?
Certainly Sheila and June. Nevill went out late to move a trailer. He was found downstairs, wearing pyjamas, but he sustained the first shots upstairs.
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And I'm saying that there's no way on God's earth that Colin would have left London after 10.30pm to drive to WHF, knowing they'd all be in bed. What are you suggesting he was going to do? Pull two frightened little boys from their beds and take them back to London? Oh! SILLY me! I forgot. You're claiming he decided to kill them. 'Course, he'd then have to kill all the others so they couldn't tell. This is Colin you're talking about!!!!
Putting words into my mouth again.
If Colin thought or knew that Sheila had grabbed the loaded gun, he would have had more than enough concern to drive the distance. Whether he made it in time to save anyone's life is another story.
Certainly Sheila and June. Nevill went out late to move a trailer. He was found downstairs, wearing pyjamas, but he sustained the first shots upstairs.
That is the first I've heard about Nevill moving a trailer. Why would that be necessary? Was this so Jeremy could drive home?
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CC returned to his pad where his live-in girlfriend was waiting who accompanied him to Essex the following morning.
CC states in his book he had a premonition something was wrong at WHF.
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Putting words into my mouth again.
If Colin thought or knew that Sheila had grabbed the loaded gun, he would have had more than enough concern to drive the distance. Whether he made it in time to save anyone's life is another story.
That is the first I've heard about Nevill moving a trailer. Why would that be necessary? Was this so Jeremy could drive home?
So you're suggesting that Nevill phoned Jeremy -who may not have even heard the phone rig- AND Colin -who was 2 hours drive away- but didn't call the police? Yeah! That makes sense................NOT!!!
It was Jeremy's job to move the trailer, but he didn't, so Nevill had to.
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CC returned to his pad where his live-in girlfriend was waiting who accompanied him to Essex the following morning.
When did Colin return to his pad?
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WHAT argument?!!! You have to keep pushing an argument about the children to further your "solid alibi" mantra.
Call it what you like an argument, a discussion, a heated debate. Whatever they were discussing at WHF on the evening of the 6th August.
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Certainly Sheila and June. Nevill went out late to move a trailer. He was found downstairs, wearing pyjamas, but he sustained the first shots upstairs.
The two boys were shot while they slept.
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CC states in his book he had a premonition something was wrong at WHF.
So what does he do? Does he ignore it?
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CC states in his book he had a premonition something was wrong at WHF.
And?
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5 people died that night all could be capable of ringing Colin Caffell and let him know there was a discussion going on where they were discussing the fostering of his children. There was nothing stopping CC from turning up in person that night.
Unbelievable!
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And?
It is a clue that he had a motive to drive there and sort it out, even without the need for a phone call to alert him. Wow the story is getting even better.
Unbelievable!
Is it?
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And?
Should have added he discussed this with his girlfriend.
Just pointing out CC has a rock solid alibi as if he needed one %#&%4%
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It is a clue that he had a motive to drive there and sort it out, even without the need for a phone call to alert him. Wow the story is getting even better.
Is it?
Another one!
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Call it what you like an argument, a discussion, a heated debate. Whatever they were discussing at WHF on the evening of the 6th August.
A) Supposing there wasn't anything said which warranted making a call to him? B) Supposing something was said -ie, BAMBER family stuff which was no concern of his?
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Should have added he discussed this with his girlfriend.
Just pointing out CC has a rock solid alibi as if he needed one %#&%4%
Cheers!
Got that Robbitybobbityboo?
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Should have added he discussed this with his girlfriend.
Just pointing out CC has a rock solid alibi as if he needed one %#&%4%
Have a go then. What is his rock-solid alibi?
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It is a clue that he had a motive to drive there and sort it out, even without the need for a phone call to alert him. Wow the story is getting even better.
Is it?
No he discussed his fears with his girlfriend which set in around 11.30pm and felt it too late to call.
I haven't been following this thread but surely its not being suggested CC was involved?
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Have a go then. What is his rock-solid alibi?
You are surely not suggesting CC drove to WHF and shot dead his twin sons?
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You are surely not suggesting CC drove to WHF and shot dead his twin sons?
He certainly is.
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No he discussed his fears with his girlfriend which set in around 11.30pm and felt it too late to call.
I haven't been following this thread but surely its not being suggested CC was involved?
Surprisingly, YES, it is. Whoever this poster is, whatever he's told, he appears determined to have Colin involved. Driving down from London and arriving at WHF around midnight because he allegedly received a call saying Sheila was running around with a gun/saying the Bambers were trying to put the boys into care/take them away from him.
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No he discussed his fears with his girlfriend which set in around 11.30pm and felt it too late to call.
I haven't been following this thread but surely its not being suggested CC was involved?
What I think could have happened now that you tell me there was a premonition, is that at some late-stage Colin drives to WHF and finds the murder scene, and rings Jeremy at 3:30 AM. Jermy just woken from sleep thinks the call came from his father but the caller never identifies himself but tells Jeremy his sister has got the gun and he better get over there. Jeremy thinking this is a trap, he rings the police and makes sure the police arrive first.
Surprisingly, YES, it is. Whoever this poster is, whatever he's told, he appears determined to have Colin involved. Driving down from London and arriving at WHF around midnight because he received a call saying Sheila was running around with a gun/saying the Bambers were trying to put the boys into care/take them away from him.
he received a call saying Sheila was running around with a gun/saying the Bambers were trying to put the boys into care/take them away from him.
You can put that down to a premonition now if you like.
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What I think could have happened now that you tell me there was a premonition, is that at some late-stage Colin drives to WHF and finds the murder scene, and rings Jeremy at 3:30 AM. Jermy just woken from sleep thinks the call came from his father but the caller never identifies himself but tells Jeremy his sister has got the gun and he better get over there. Jeremy thinking this is a trap, he rings the police and makes sure the police arrive first.
You can put that down to a premonition now if you like.
Robittybob1 this is beyond ridiculous imo. I'm outta here.
Over and out.
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Robittybob1 this is beyond ridiculous imo. I'm outta here.
Over and out.
it puts Jeremy in the clear. Isn't that what you want?
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Robittybob1 this is beyond ridiculous imo. I'm outta here.
Over and out.
Right behind you!
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What I think could have happened now that you tell me there was a premonition, is that at some late-stage Colin drives to WHF and finds the murder scene, and rings Jeremy at 3:30 AM. Jermy just woken from sleep thinks the call came from his father but the caller never identifies himself but tells Jeremy his sister has got the gun and he better get over there. Jeremy thinking this is a trap, he rings the police and makes sure the police arrive first.
he received a call saying Sheila was running around with a gun/saying the Bambers were trying to put the boys into care/take them away from him.
You can put that down to a premonition now if you like.
OK. I play this silly game with you. He's clearly still in London circa 11.30 He leaves around midnight. Arrives at the farm around 2am. House all locked up. Residents in bed. How's he going to phone Jeremy? What's he going to say to Jeremy? 'Course, if he'd put his toe down he MIGHT just have got back to London in time to make a call to Jeremy, at around 3.10 pretending to be Nevill and telling him Sheila had gone mad with a gun. He might have thought it was a huge joke..................just like your posts have become. Good Night!!!
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OK. I play this silly game with you. He's clearly still in London circa 11.30 He leaves around midnight. Arrives at the farm around 2am. House all locked up. Residents in bed. How's he going to phone Jeremy? What's he going to say to Jeremy? 'Course, if he'd put his toe down he MIGHT just have got back to London in time to make a call to Jeremy, at around 3.10 pretending to be Nevill and telling him Sheila had gone mad with a gun. He might have thought it was a huge joke..................just like your posts have become. Good Night!!!
He might have jemmied a window. A hacksaw blade was found near a window wasn't it? He could have broken in.
"iv) The appellant’s admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the
farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His
claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to
explain these findings; "
and
"iv) Because the appellant had on a number of occasions before and after the killings
entered the house by various ground floor windows there was no probative value in
the finding of the hacksaw blade etc;"
It wasn't possible to say who used the hacksaw blade to breakin.
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No he discussed his fears with his girlfriend which set in around 11.30pm and felt it too late to call.
What are you on about Holly ?
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What are you on about Holly ?
Colin had a bad feeling the night before the murders and he discussed them with Heather.
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Colin had a bad feeling the night before the murders and he discussed them with Heather.
Colin also had a bad feeling at the time he left the twins at WHF.
However, if he'd gone back there on the night of the killings, in the hope of saving them, why on earth wouldn't he have told the police that?
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Colin also had a bad feeling at the time he left the twins at WHF.
However, if he'd gone back there on the night of the killings, in the hope of saving them, why on earth wouldn't he have told the police that?
I think there is enough evidence to work out what happened. There was no lead residue on Sheila's hands so I think we can say she never reloaded the magazine.
Now can we work out how many bullets were fired in total? From memory, I think it was 25 but I want each bullet accounted for precisely.
If there were 25 bullets fired from just one gun then the magazine needed reloading at least twice.
Can we be sure there weren't two .22 rifles being used?
"Nevill kept several guns at the farm. He was reportedly careful with them, cleaning them after use and securing them.[76] He had bought the gun, a .22 Anschütz semi-automatic rifle, model 525, on 30 November 1984, along with a Parker Hale silencer, telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition.[77] Jeremy said he had been present when Nevill bought the gun from a gunsmith in Colchester.[78] It used cartridges, which were loaded into a magazine that held ten cartridges. Twenty-five shots were fired during the killing, so if the rifle was fully loaded to begin with, it would have been reloaded at least twice. The court heard that the magazine became harder to load with each cartridge; loading the tenth was described as "exceptionally hard".[79]
The rifle had normally been used to shoot rabbits with the silencer and telescopic sight attached. The court heard that the telescopic sight had to be removed with a screwdriver, but it was usually left in place because it was time-consuming to realign it." Wikipedia
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Nevill was found in the kitchen, dressed in pyjamas, lying over an overturned chair next to the fireplace, amid a scene suggestive of a struggle.[107] He had been shot eight times,
June
June's body and clothing were heavily bloodstained; she was found in her nightdress with bare feet. The police believe she had been sitting up during part of the attack, based on the pattern of blood on her clothing. She was found lying on the floor by the door of the master bedroom. She had been shot seven times.
Daniel and Nicholas
The boys were found in their beds in their own room (formerly Sheila's room). They appeared to have been shot while in bed. The court heard that Daniel had been shot five times in the back of the head, four times with the gun held within one foot of his head, and once from over two feet away. Nicholas had been shot three times, all contact or close-proximity shots.
Sheila was found on the floor of the master bedroom with her mother. She was in her nightdress, her feet were bare, and she had two bullet wounds under her chin,
8+7+2+5+3 = 25 Bullet wounds, what no missed shots!
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"Jeremy dictated a list of the firearms kept at the house." I wonder if anyone knows where that list might be now?
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Colin also had a bad feeling at the time he left the twins at WHF.
However, if he'd gone back there on the night of the killings, in the hope of saving them, why on earth wouldn't he have told the police that?
This also a bit weird "White House Farm murder: Nevill Bamber had a premonition of slaughter
NEVILL BAMBER had a terrible dream he would die days before he was gunned down by his son Jeremy in a family killing spree that has now been turned into a TV dramatisation. The wealthy farmer, haunted by his nightmare vision, had even told his secretary: “I think there might be a serious shooting.”
By JOHN TWOMEY
PUBLISHED: 00:01, Sat, Jan 4, 2020 | UPDATED: 13:10, Sat, Jan 4, 2020" https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1223902/White-House-Farm-murder-Nevill-Bamber-premonition-slaughter
What with Nevill having a premonition and Colin Caffell having a premonition as well. Talk about strange.
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Colin Caffell (Author of In Search of the Rainbow's End)
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I think there is enough evidence to work out what happened. There was no lead residue on Sheila's hands so I think we can say she never reloaded the magazine.
Now can we work out how many bullets were fired in total? From memory, I think it was 25 but I want each bullet accounted for precisely.
If there were 25 bullets fired from just one gun then the magazine needed reloading at least twice.
Can we be sure there weren't two .22 rifles being used?
"Nevill kept several guns at the farm. He was reportedly careful with them, cleaning them after use and securing them.[76] He had bought the gun, a .22 Anschütz semi-automatic rifle, model 525, on 30 November 1984, along with a Parker Hale silencer, telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition.[77] Jeremy said he had been present when Nevill bought the gun from a gunsmith in Colchester.[78] It used cartridges, which were loaded into a magazine that held ten cartridges. Twenty-five shots were fired during the killing, so if the rifle was fully loaded to begin with, it would have been reloaded at least twice. The court heard that the magazine became harder to load with each cartridge; loading the tenth was described as "exceptionally hard".[79]
The rifle had normally been used to shoot rabbits with the silencer and telescopic sight attached. The court heard that the telescopic sight had to be removed with a screwdriver, but it was usually left in place because it was time-consuming to realign it." Wikipedia
Seemingly, lead residue can be removed just by wiping one's hands on a towel.
https://youtu.be/0hAarqiSwbY
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"Jeremy dictated a list of the firearms kept at the house." I wonder if anyone knows where that list might be now?
He didn't dictate, he wrote...
(https://i.imgur.com/3KREemF.jpg)
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it puts Jeremy in the clear. Isn't that what you want?
Checkmate I think Rob.
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He didn't dictate, he wrote...
(https://i.imgur.com/3KREemF.jpg)
That list shows there were two .22 rifles at the WHF property.
In one of the documentaries there is a photo showing a .22 gun leaning against the wall, whereas the .22 semi-automatic rifle used by Sheila was lying on her abdomen. So IMO there were two rifles in action that night. I imagine when Nevill woke up he grabbed a gun and fought for his life against the person in the house. It might have felt like self-defense for the person who killed Nevill. It was either do or die for the person fending off Neville's attack.
This might account for the .22 shells being left by the phone. If Neville used the phone he may have dropped the shells when attacked.
It was recorded that 25 .22 shell casings were picked up from the house. Does anyone know if the shell casings were kept?
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That list shows there were two .22 rifles at the WHF property.
In one of the documentaries there is a photo showing a .22 gun leaning against the wall, whereas the .22 semi-automatic rifle used by Sheila was lying on her abdomen. So IMO there were two rifles in action that night. I imagine when Nevill woke up he grabbed a gun and fought for his life against the person in the house. It might have felt like self-defense for the person who killed Nevill. It was either do or die for the person fending off Neville's attack.
This might account for the .22 shells being left by the phone. If Neville used the phone he may have dropped the shells when attacked.
It was recorded that 25 .22 shell casings were picked up from the house. Does anyone know if the shell casings were kept?
All the used shell casings were bagged by the forensic officer and analysed by Malcolm Fletcher, but destroyed years later.
The unused cartridges on the kitchen worktop were some of those from a full box which Bamber allegedly emptied there the previous night according to his statement.
The rifle leaning against the wall by the bedroom window was the same Anschutz removed from Sheila's body as a safety precaution, before all the bodies were taken to the mortuary. It was photographed in both locations by PC Bird.
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All the used shell casings were bagged by the forensic officer and analysed by Malcolm Fletcher, but destroyed years later.
The unused cartridges on the kitchen worktop were some of those from a full box which Bamber allegedly emptied there the previous night according to his statement.
The rifle leaning against the wall by the bedroom window was the same Anschutz removed from Sheila's body as a safety precaution, before all the bodies were taken to the mortuary. It was photographed in both locations by PC Bird.
OK so do you accept all that as truth? Where can I find Jeremy Bamber's statement?
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That list shows there were two .22 rifles at the WHF property.
In one of the documentaries there is a photo showing a .22 gun leaning against the wall, whereas the .22 semi-automatic rifle used by Sheila was lying on her abdomen. So IMO there were two rifles in action that night. I imagine when Nevill woke up he grabbed a gun and fought for his life against the person in the house. It might have felt like self-defense for the person who killed Nevill. It was either do or die for the person fending off Neville's attack.
This might account for the .22 shells being left by the phone. If Neville used the phone he may have dropped the shells when attacked.
It was recorded that 25 .22 shell casings were picked up from the house. Does anyone know if the shell casings were kept?
The bolt action.22 would have been pretty useless in a melee.
The only hope of your theory stitching together is that a DBSG was used - which it wasn't.
Fact is, the most effective weapon available was used. OK, Bamber could have loaded 2 cartridges in to 2 shotguns and had a few in a bandoleer, but that would have been one noisy, messy scene and, alas, he had to dispatch the children quietly.
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OK so do you accept all that as truth? Where can I find Jeremy Bamber's statement?
For the most part, yes. Bamber's statement about emptying the box of ammunition here...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222)
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OK so do you accept all that as truth? Where can I find Jeremy Bamber's statement?
Part of Ron Cook's transcript at trial concerning removal of the rifle...
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For the most part, yes. Bamber's statement about emptying the box of ammunition here...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222)
I thought Bamber had covered himself re forensics by 'shooting rabbits' but I was wrong ... the rabbits had disappeared by the time he got out and he did not discharge the weapon.
Even if he had worn the wet suit it is possible that he might have been contaminated with gun shot residue ... nostril - hair or when the glove came off while he was dealing with Nevill which would have taken some explaining.
So his vilification of Sheila was successful insofar as no-one even gave a thought to taking swabs or samples of any kind from him. Pity.
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I thought Bamber had covered himself re forensics by 'shooting rabbits' but I was wrong ... the rabbits had disappeared by the time he got out and he did not discharge the weapon.
Even if he had worn the wet suit it is possible that he might have been contaminated with gun shot residue ... nostril - hair or when the glove came off while he was dealing with Nevill which would have taken some explaining.
So his vilification of Sheila was successful insofar as no-one even gave a thought to taking swabs or samples of any kind from him. Pity.
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/minimal-entry-england-essex-int-ron-stone-essex-deputy-news-footage/1131166387?adppopup=true
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I thought Bamber had covered himself re forensics by 'shooting rabbits' but I was wrong ... the rabbits had disappeared by the time he got out and he did not discharge the weapon.
Even if he had worn the wet suit it is possible that he might have been contaminated with gun shot residue ... nostril - hair or when the glove came off while he was dealing with Nevill which would have taken some explaining.
So his vilification of Sheila was successful insofar as no-one even gave a thought to taking swabs or samples of any kind from him. Pity.
ALL hypothetical, but..........
...........He could have showered in the wet suit and left it in his old bedroom at WHF -police discovered the door of which to be locked.
If he hadn't worn a wetsuit, he could have gone home and thrown his work/massacre clothes in the washing machine -which would be the usual thing to do after a hot, sweaty day at work- police wouldn't have thought twice about it as he wasn't a suspect.
He could have thrown, into the fire pit, all the clothes he'd worn.
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ALL hypothetical, but..........
...........He could have showered in the wet suit and left it in his old bedroom at WHF -police discovered the door of which to be locked.
If he hadn't worn a wetsuit, he could have gone home and thrown his work/massacre clothes in the washing machine -which would be the usual thing to do after a hot, sweaty day at work- police wouldn't have thought twice about it as he wasn't a suspect.
He could have thrown, into the fire pit, all the clothes he'd worn.
They eventually did get into his room, I'm sure the fire pit contained evidence. For those of you who think he's innocent, is it normal to gather your parents clothes a few days after their murder, pile them high on a farm trailer and burn them?
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They eventually did get into his room, I'm sure the fire pit contained evidence. For those of you who think he's innocent, is it normal to gather your parents clothes a few days after their murder, pile them high on a farm trailer and burn them?
The fire pit contained evidence of what----the wetsuit?
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The fire pit contained evidence of what----the wetsuit?
No. The wetsuit was in the wardrobe. The firepit would have contained things like remnants of Harris tweed, Barbour jackets, Pringle , Vyella, and all the other labels so beloved by the county loving class.
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ALL hypothetical, but..........
...........He could have showered in the wet suit and left it in his old bedroom at WHF -police discovered the door of which to be locked.
If he hadn't worn a wetsuit, he could have gone home and thrown his work/massacre clothes in the washing machine -which would be the usual thing to do after a hot, sweaty day at work- police wouldn't have thought twice about it as he wasn't a suspect.
He could have thrown, into the fire pit, all the clothes he'd worn.
Bamber would probably have got away with it had he been less indiscreet with Julie Mugford and had given some thought to the silencer getting contaminated internally proving categorically that the narrative he promoted regarding Sheila was nonsense.
The only way traces of Sheila could have been found deep within the silencer was if she had been shot while it was attached to the weapon used to kill her and to wipe out her family.
Snip
The distribution of blood in the moderator is an issue I addressed in great detail. The prosecution experts found visible blood on the first 5-7 baffles wiht the volume decreasing the further it got from the opening. The defense expert found microscopic traces of blood on the first 8 baffles. The blood was tested and detemrined to be group A. In addition a flake of blood that dried between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and determined to be group A but also had an anzyme which June didn't possess but Sheila did.
June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present. So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.
The only way for blood to get on the 8 baffles with the volume dimishing is if it were sprayed there. High velocity backspatter is a spray of atomized blood. The larger particles cannot travel as far as the fine particles so the larger blood will be on the early baffles. This is exactly what was observed.
You have no way at all to suggest the blood was anything other than backspatter from Sheila.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222171#msg222171
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The fire pit contained evidence of what----the wetsuit?
Eh? I didn't mention the wetsuit - the fire pit was an ideal area to rid himself of evidence. You missed the point about him burins all of Nevill and June's clothes. If your parents were murdered, would you pile their clothes high in the garden just day after they died and set fire to them?
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Bamber would probably have got away with it had he been less indiscreet with Julie Mugford and had given some thought to the silencer getting contaminated internally proving categorically that the narrative he promoted regarding Sheila was nonsense.
The only way traces of Sheila could have been found deep within the silencer was if she had been shot while it was attached to the weapon used to kill her and to wipe out her family.
Snip
The distribution of blood in the moderator is an issue I addressed in great detail. The prosecution experts found visible blood on the first 5-7 baffles wiht the volume decreasing the further it got from the opening. The defense expert found microscopic traces of blood on the first 8 baffles. The blood was tested and detemrined to be group A. In addition a flake of blood that dried between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and determined to be group A but also had an anzyme which June didn't possess but Sheila did.
June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present. So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.
The only way for blood to get on the 8 baffles with the volume dimishing is if it were sprayed there. High velocity backspatter is a spray of atomized blood. The larger particles cannot travel as far as the fine particles so the larger blood will be on the early baffles. This is exactly what was observed.
You have no way at all to suggest the blood was anything other than backspatter from Sheila.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222171#msg222171
Brietta, he came so, SO close to getting away with it.
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ALL hypothetical, but..........
...........He could have showered in the wet suit and left it in his old bedroom at WHF -police discovered the door of which to be locked.
If he hadn't worn a wetsuit, he could have gone home and thrown his work/massacre clothes in the washing machine -which would be the usual thing to do after a hot, sweaty day at work- police wouldn't have thought twice about it as he wasn't a suspect.
He could have thrown, into the fire pit, all the clothes he'd worn.
Wasn’t there an observation made about there being no towels at his cottage or something ?
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They eventually did get into his room, I'm sure the fire pit contained evidence. For those of you who think he's innocent, is it normal to gather your parents clothes a few days after their murder, pile them high on a farm trailer and burn them?
It’s another of those “just because he did x doesn’t make him a murderer” arguments. I must compile a list of all of them, it would be quite a long list.
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It’s another of those “just because he did x doesn’t make him a murderer” arguments. I must compile a list of all of them, it would be quite a long list.
And ever growing!
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And ever growing!
I have started a thread, pending approval.
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I have started a thread, pending approval.
Excellent! Just posted a poll - also pending approval. 8((()*/
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Wasn’t there an observation made about there being no towels at his cottage or something ?
I think it was Ann. However, it was a somewhat sweeping statement unless she opened draws, or searched the airing cupboard..................or opened the door of the washing machine???
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I think it was Ann. However, it was a somewhat sweeping statement unless she opened draws, or searched the airing cupboard..................or opened the door of the washing machine???
Everyone has towels in the bathroom, even just a hand towel. People would get sick of having to go the the airing cupboard with wet hands and storing them there, how would you know which were used and which weren't. More Bamber BS.
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Everyone has towels in the bathroom, even just a hand towel. People would get sick of having to go the the airing cupboard with wet hands and storing them there, how would you know which were used and which weren't. More Bamber BS.
Wasn't it Julie who made the claim, to Ann, originally? She'd probably be more aware, than her, of the towel situation, MORE, why none were available.
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Wasn't it Julie who made the claim, to Ann, originally? She'd probably be more aware, than her, of the towel situation, MORE, why none were available.
They both said it but no idea who was first. Julie said he never had towles but she wasn't always there.
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I challenge you to find a post where I suggest Colin "suddenly thought “Oh, I will drive up to WHF and kill them all instead”". It is you who is jumping to conclusions about what I am theorizing. Stop putting words into my mouth please.
Colin was only a 90-minute car ride away so all I'm saying is that it would be possible for Colin Caffall to turn up at the WHF at some stage during that evening/night/morning.
I never SAID that you’d said Colin suddenly decided to drive up to WHF to murder his children, ex-wife and her parents.
You know next to nothing about the case, and for some weird reason you’re trying to suggest Colin may have killed his family — which is utter BS.
He was NEVER a suspect; he had NO motive; he adored his children; he had a Cast iron alibi; he wasn’t a psychopath — and the murderer, Jeremy Bamber was found guilty beyond doubt.
What can’t you grasp about that?
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In NZ solo parents can't take their children overseas without permission from the other partner. If the Bambers didn't agree they could have stopped Colin taking the boys out of the country. Well, the story might be different in the UK but I'd be surprised if it was.
Possibly. I'm not accusing anyone of anything at this stage.
Exactly - "We have NO idea what was said that night".
WTH are you in about?!
It had nothing to do with June and Nevill that Colin was taking the boys’ on holiday to Norway. Sheila was fine with it; she agreed. There were no court orders to say one parent needed permission to take the boys’ on a holiday abroad!
You only need permission from the other parent if you’ve had a custody battle and the courts order it. And that wasn’t the case.
Why are you coming up with theories that diner even exist?
And IF that had been the case, that they told Colin he couldn’t take his sons’ on holiday WTF would he shoot them dead?!
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IMO without a solid alibi you can't rule him out. Having an alibi that involves your girlfriend would be considered a soft alibi.
There was motive for him to turn up that night. God only knows at what stage Colin could have turned up. Were they all dead by that stage? In my theory the phone call to Jeremy (3:30 AM) could have been from Colin Caffell.
So you’re implying Colin’s girlfriend covered for him?
And hs neighbours who saw his van parked outside ALL NIGHT LONG.
And his family/friends who he spoke to on the phone from home?
All these people covered up for him.
And what was his motive? He didn’t want to take the boys’ on holiday? Sounds a strong motive *%87
And how did he know Jeremy Bamber has oh so conveniently left the rifle out, loaded? Which, actually — he didn’t. He hid that rifle ready to kill them all.
And why would he alert Jeremy, trying to sound like Nevill, when he wanted to get away from the scene without being spotted?
Your suggestion is so ludicrous I can’t believe I’ve responded 😳
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CC returned to his pad where his live-in girlfriend was waiting who accompanied him to Essex the following morning.
House
Not pad...
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Seemingly, lead residue can be removed just by wiping one's hands on a towel.
https://youtu.be/0hAarqiSwbY
Problem with that is, no towel was found next to Sheila...
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No. The wetsuit was in the wardrobe. The firepit would have contained things like remnants of Harris tweed, Barbour jackets, Pringle , Vyella, and all the other labels so beloved by the county loving class.
Yes, and why indeed was his wetsuit in his once bedroom, with the door locked, when he always kept it at HIS house in Goldhanger? And why weren’t his flippers and, mask and snorkel with his wetsuit at WHF? Why were they at Goldhanger?
It’s obvious he showered in his wetsuit to wash all blood away; dried it off with a towel; then left it in his bedroom
It’s also a pity the police didn’t look around Goldhanger when they all went back there. Jeremy Bamber is quite thick IMO, and I bet the police would have seen his bed hadn’t been slept in that night...not that it matters now as he was caught out eventually, but how would he have explained that?
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Bamber would probably have got away with it had he been less indiscreet with Julie Mugford and had given some thought to the silencer getting contaminated internally proving categorically that the narrative he promoted regarding Sheila was nonsense.
The only way traces of Sheila could have been found deep within the silencer was if she had been shot while it was attached to the weapon used to kill her and to wipe out her family.
Snip
The distribution of blood in the moderator is an issue I addressed in great detail. The prosecution experts found visible blood on the first 5-7 baffles wiht the volume decreasing the further it got from the opening. The defense expert found microscopic traces of blood on the first 8 baffles. The blood was tested and detemrined to be group A. In addition a flake of blood that dried between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and determined to be group A but also had an anzyme which June didn't possess but Sheila did.
June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present. So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.
The only way for blood to get on the 8 baffles with the volume dimishing is if it were sprayed there. High velocity backspatter is a spray of atomized blood. The larger particles cannot travel as far as the fine particles so the larger blood will be on the early baffles. This is exactly what was observed.
You have no way at all to suggest the blood was anything other than backspatter from Sheila.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222171#msg222171
That explanation of the blood in the silencer and whose blood it was is the best one I’ve ever read, Brietta.
Shame thta can’t be pinned in a thread showing all the irrefutable proof
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You don’t read, do you?
I never SAID that you’d said Colin suddenly decided to drive up to WHF to murder his children, ex-wife and her parents.
I said that you babbling on about something that is ludicrous in the extreme is wasting everyone’s time...it’s boring.
You know next to nothing about the case, and for some weird reason you’re trying to suggest Colin may have killed his family — which is utter BS.
He was NEVER a suspect; he had NO motive; he adored his children; he had a Cast iron alibi; he wasn’t a psychopath — and the murderer, Jeremy Bamber was found guilty beyond doubt.
What can’t you grasp about that?
And you have put words in my mouth again. How dare you suggest that I "for some weird reason you’re trying to suggest Colin may have killed his family".
He might have adored his kids but from what we've discovered he didn't have a cast iron alibi.
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WTH are you in about?!
It had nothing to do with June and Nevill that Colin was taking the boys’ on holiday to Norway. Sheila was fine with it; she agreed. There were no court orders to say one parent needed permission to take the boys’ on a holiday abroad!
You only need permission from the other parent if you’ve had a custody battle and the courts order it. And that wasn’t the case.
Why are you coming up with theories that diner even exist?
And IF that had been the case, that they told Colin he couldn’t take his sons’ on holiday WTF would he shoot them dead?!
Who was trying to foster the boys out?
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So you’re implying Colin’s girlfriend covered for him?
And hs neighbours who saw his van parked outside ALL NIGHT LONG.
And his family/friends who he spoke to on the phone from home?
All these people covered up for him.
And what was his motive? He didn’t want to take the boys’ on holiday? Sounds a strong motive *%87
And how did he know Jeremy Bamber has oh so conveniently left the rifle out, loaded? Which, actually — he didn’t. He hid that rifle ready to kill them all.
And why would he alert Jeremy, trying to sound like Nevill, when he wanted to get away from the scene without being spotted?
Your suggestion is so ludicrous I can’t believe I’ve responded
Show me his statement then please.
I know he wrote a book but did he give a statement?
IN SEARCH OF THE RAINBOW'S END
by Colin Caffell
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Bamber would probably have got away with it had he been less indiscreet with Julie Mugford and had given some thought to the silencer getting contaminated internally proving categorically that the narrative he promoted regarding Sheila was nonsense.
The only way traces of Sheila could have been found deep within the silencer was if she had been shot while it was attached to the weapon used to kill her and to wipe out her family.
Snip
The distribution of blood in the moderator is an issue I addressed in great detail. The prosecution experts found visible blood on the first 5-7 baffles wiht the volume decreasing the further it got from the opening. The defense expert found microscopic traces of blood on the first 8 baffles. The blood was tested and detemrined to be group A. In addition a flake of blood that dried between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and determined to be group A but also had an anzyme which June didn't possess but Sheila did.
June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present. So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.
The only way for blood to get on the 8 baffles with the volume dimishing is if it were sprayed there. High velocity backspatter is a spray of atomized blood. The larger particles cannot travel as far as the fine particles so the larger blood will be on the early baffles. This is exactly what was observed.
You have no way at all to suggest the blood was anything other than backspatter from Sheila.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222171#msg222171
To reply to your post again, Brietta, I also agree that Jeremy Bamber could have got away with it.
Thank God he’s not that bright.
Had he been clever he’d:
Never mentioned his desires/plans to a soul
Realised Sheila couldn’t have shot herself with the silencer attached, so would have somehow got/stole a separate silencer to use and taken it with him to dispose of
It wouldn’t have mattered that Sheila hadn’t used a silencer if she’d gone “berserk” — what would be the point? She wouldn’t have cared; and wouldn’t have cared how loud the fire shots were. She wouldn’t have cared if nearby neighbours heard gunfire — they’d have all been dead in minutes
He’d have also taken his flippers etc and left them in the bedroom with his wetsuit
He’d have removed Sheila’s nightdress after shooting her dead and patted it against Nevill’s body, June’s body...then put it back on her
Smeared gun residue on her hands
Placed her slipper prints on the blood, sugar, glass in the kitchen and on the stairs — then tossed them by her body
He’d have hosed the mud off June’s bicycle when he got home and if anyone asked why it was there he could’ve said June had cycled over recently and felt tired/dizzy/whatever to cycle back so he drove her home
He’d then have turned up as normal in the morning, started shouting loudly “Mum, Dad!” while banging on the doors. Looked through the windows, jumped in his car, sped like crazy to Barbara’s, the Eaton’s or other workers houses to say he couldn’t get into the house and could see his Dad in the kitchen like he’d had an accident or fall
They’d have gone to the house with him trying to get in; someone would have phoned the police — they’d have broken in, discovered the bodies, and Taff would have said it was a murder/suicide
When/if they discovered his fingerprint on the gun he’d have said he had used it occasionally; the police would’ve accepted that, easily.
He’d have kept himself to himself for a few months, staying home at Goldhanger with just Julie, & the family popping round to make sure he ate and took care of himself..
And he’d have got away with it
Sorry, I rambled on there...not sure why, actually
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Wasn’t there an observation made about there being no towels at his cottage or something ?
The police did find a towel AND his bathrobe which had traces of blood on, but they were too small to detect who they belonged to
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And you have put words in my mouth again. How dare you suggest that I "for some weird reason you’re trying to suggest Colin may have killed his family".
He might have adored his kids but from what we've discovered he didn't have a cast iron alibi.
He did have a cast iron alibi — you don’t READ
He was at home in London with his girlfriend
They are together
Watched TV together
He spoke on his landline to people
Neighbours saw his van parked outside ALL EVENING into the MORNING
And there’s no “might” about it — Colin DID love his sons’!
The person who DIDN’T have an alibi, let alone a CAST IRON one was psychopath Jeremy Bamber
And Jeremy Bamber had a MASSIVE MOTIVE
Has that not sunk in yet?
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He did have a cast iron alibi — you don’t READ
He was at home in London with his girlfriend
They are together
Watched TV together
He spoke on his landline to people
Neighbours saw his van parked outside ALL EVENING into the MORNING
And there’s no “might” about it — Colin DID love his sons’!
The person who DIDN’T have an alibi, let alone a CAST IRON one was psychopath Jeremy Bamber
And Jeremy Bamber had a MASSIVE MOTIVE
Has that not sunk in yet?
Where is his statement? How long did it take Colin to realise his ex-wife could not have murdered Nevill Bamber? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894563/Murdered-Sheila-Caffells-widow-reveals-welcomed-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-home.html
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Who was trying to foster the boys out?
NO-ONE
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Show me his statement then please.
I know he wrote a book but did he give a statement?
IN SEARCH OF THE RAINBOW'S END
by Colin Caffell
What?!
I suggest YOU do your own research.
Read the OFFICIAL court reports.
Read CAL’s book; Colin’s
I’m not replying to you anymore as you’re wasting my time
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Det Sgt. Stanley Jones told the Court that he took a statement from Mr. Colin Caffell on the 7th August.
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Det Sgt. Stanley Jones told the Court that he took a statement from Mr. Colin Caffell on the 7th August.
I'm sure Colin would have had to give a statement, but I've never seen it. Someone on here will probably know!
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I'm sure Colin would have had to give a statement, but I've never seen it. Someone on here will probably know!
With a bit of luck Holly will tunnel under the blue fence, crawl past the Dobermans, take a screen shot with her spy camera and sneak it back here.
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I'm sure Colin would have had to give a statement, but I've never seen it. Someone on here will probably know!
He did make one.
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He did make one.
Well it will be interesting if anyone can upload photos of Colin Caffell's statement. DS Stanley Jones's testimony is on the MOJ website. I'll see if I find the link again.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1056.msg30124#msg30124 or the following post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1056.msg30126#msg30126
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With a bit of luck Holly will tunnel under the blue fence, crawl past the Dobermans, take a screen shot with her spy camera and sneak it back here.
Do you have the link to the blue forum, please?
I did look at it a while back but can’t remember the name if it, and I can’t find the link
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This a pretty extensive interview with Colin Caffell https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7852251/Pain-murdered-twins-father-milk-teeth-collected-DNA-evidence.html
"Colin recalls: ‘Jeremy came out of his cottage, gave me a big hug and then told me this story about an argument in the farmhouse the night before, where his parents said that, because of Sheila’s psychosis, they were going to take custody of the boys and place them with a local Christian family.
‘The idea of the twins being taken into care would have been abhorrent to Sheila. That made it possible that she might have flipped.’"
I take that to mean Colin agrees that if Jeremy's story was correct Sheila could have flipped and killed the kids.
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This a pretty extensive interview with Colin Caffell https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7852251/Pain-murdered-twins-father-milk-teeth-collected-DNA-evidence.html
"Colin recalls: ‘Jeremy came out of his cottage, gave me a big hug and then told me this story about an argument in the farmhouse the night before, where his parents said that, because of Sheila’s psychosis, they were going to take custody of the boys and place them with a local Christian family.
‘The idea of the twins being taken into care would have been abhorrent to Sheila. That made it possible that she might have flipped.’"
I take that to mean Colin agrees that if Jeremy's story was correct Sheila could have flipped and killed the kids.
Sheila's illness was Jeremy's convenient cover story from the off. Had she not been ill, he'd probably have had to resort to cutting the brake line on a car they were all in, or blowing the house up. There is no guarantee that any such conversation occurred.
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With a bit of luck Holly will tunnel under the blue fence, crawl past the Dobermans, take a screen shot with her spy camera and sneak it back here.
He could always join and read it himself?
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Sheila's illness was Jeremy's convenient cover story from the off. Had she not been ill, he'd probably have had to resort to cutting the brake line on a car they were all in, or blowing the house up. There is no guarantee that any such conversation occurred.
Except that a lady called Barbara Wilson gave a statement to the police telling a different story. "White House Farm: Who is Barbara Wilson? Why was she important?
WHITE HOUSE FARM is the new true-crime series on ITV. In the latest episode, a woman named Barbara Wilson spoke to police about the Bamber family and life on White House Farm. Who was she and why was she important to the case?" https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case
"Barbara Wilson was the secretary of the late Nevill Bamber from 1979 until his death in August 1985."
"Barbara revealed tension had increased on the farm and said Nevill had told her he could foresee a “shooting accident.”" Does that mean the shooting could be the work of Nevill rather than Jeremy????
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Except that a lady called Barbara Wilson gave a statement to the police telling a different story. "White House Farm: Who is Barbara Wilson? Why was she important?
WHITE HOUSE FARM is the new true-crime series on ITV. In the latest episode, a woman named Barbara Wilson spoke to police about the Bamber family and life on White House Farm. Who was she and why was she important to the case?" https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case
"Barbara Wilson was the secretary of the late Nevill Bamber from 1979 until his death in August 1985."
What different story did she tell - please enlighten?
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What different story did she tell - please enlighten?
WHITE HOUSE FARM is the new true-crime series on ITV. In the latest episode, a woman named Barbara Wilson spoke to police about the Bamber family and life on White House Farm. Who was she and why was she important to the case?" https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case
"Barbara Wilson was the secretary of the late Nevill Bamber from 1979 until his death in August 1985."
"Barbara revealed tension had increased on the farm and said Nevill had told her he could foresee a “shooting accident.”" Does that mean the shooting could be the work of Nevill rather than Jeremy????
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He could always join and read it himself?
He? Mike the Barnsley burglar will only tell him/her to f..k off. Sensible discussions, my ar$e...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10269.msg479412/topicseen.html#msg479412 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10269.msg479412/topicseen.html#msg479412)
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Except that a lady called Barbara Wilson gave a statement to the police telling a different story. "White House Farm: Who is Barbara Wilson? Why was she important?
WHITE HOUSE FARM is the new true-crime series on ITV. In the latest episode, a woman named Barbara Wilson spoke to police about the Bamber family and life on White House Farm. Who was she and why was she important to the case?" https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case (https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case)
"Barbara Wilson was the secretary of the late Nevill Bamber from 1979 until his death in August 1985."
"Barbara revealed tension had increased on the farm and said Nevill had told her he could foresee a “shooting accident.”" Does that mean the shooting could be the work of Nevill rather than Jeremy????
No! Babs Wilson... https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=1459 (https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=1459)
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He? Mike the Barnsley burglar will only tell him/her to f..k off. Sensible discussions, my ar$e...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10269.msg479412/topicseen.html#msg479412 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10269.msg479412/topicseen.html#msg479412)
Save me doing it @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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According to this report the police had doctored Colin Caffell's statement.
"Along with Jeremy’s statement, the detectives also questioned Colin Caffell. It’s not surprising that Sheila’s ex-husband should not wish to believe Sheila was capable of murdering her own offspring, and his doubts merely fanned the flames of Stan’s prejudice. Whatever was said between Stan and Colin, Essex police tried to hide the original hand-written statement of Colin Caffell and later replaced it with an altered, typed version. The police also failed to disclose the fact that Colin had complained in respect to this discrepancy, and that Essex police had failed to correct it. In brief, the police turned Colin’s statement from ‘I’d had a rough deal (from the Bamber family) all along…’ and put the words in Jeremy’s mouth instead. Colin complained to Stan Jones about the mistake, who told him: ‘It’s only a typing error… don’t worry about it.’ Colin did worry about it and wrote a letter of complaint to DS Ainsley: ‘When I asked Stan Jones about it again last week he said: ‘leave it, whatever you do don’t say anything about it in the witness box; it’ll cause all sorts of trouble if you do…’ In 2002, Colin agreed that the error may have merely been a ‘clerical mistake.’) Nothing Colin Caffell had to say eased Stan’s suspicions that Jeremy might be involved."
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-4-shawtesko.html
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According to this report the police had doctored Colin Caffell's statement.
"Along with Jeremy’s statement, the detectives also questioned Colin Caffell. It’s not surprising that Sheila’s ex-husband should not wish to believe Sheila was capable of murdering her own offspring, and his doubts merely fanned the flames of Stan’s prejudice. Whatever was said between Stan and Colin, Essex police tried to hide the original hand-written statement of Colin Caffell and later replaced it with an altered, typed version. The police also failed to disclose the fact that Colin had complained in respect to this discrepancy, and that Essex police had failed to correct it. In brief, the police turned Colin’s statement from ‘I’d had a rough deal (from the Bamber family) all along…’ and put the words in Jeremy’s mouth instead. Colin complained to Stan Jones about the mistake, who told him: ‘It’s only a typing error… don’t worry about it.’ Colin did worry about it and wrote a letter of complaint to DS Ainsley: ‘When I asked Stan Jones about it again last week he said: ‘leave it, whatever you do don’t say anything about it in the witness box; it’ll cause all sorts of trouble if you do…’ In 2002, Colin agreed that the error may have merely been a ‘clerical mistake.’) Nothing Colin Caffell had to say eased Stan’s suspicions that Jeremy might be involved."
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-4-shawtesko.html
Mmmm. This particular author has gone to great lengths to claim that WS's are never what the witness has said because they're not in the witness's handwriting. He omits to say that some witness's are illiterate and that most handwriting, unless in capitals, is very difficult to decipher. I appreciate that there would be problems if the words read back to them were not what they'd written/dictated, but such wasn't a problem in the Bamber case.
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Mmmm. This particular author has gone to great lengths to claim that WS's are never what the witness has said because they're not in the witness's handwriting. He omits to say that some witness's are illiterate and that most handwriting, unless in capitals, is very difficult to decipher. I appreciate that there would be problems if the words read back to them were not what they'd written/dictated, but such wasn't a problem in the Bamber case.
You seem to have a different understanding to mine. I thought Colin was complaining his typed statement didn't say what was in his handwritten statement. [sorry missed the word "didn't".]
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No! Babs Wilson... https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=1459 (https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=1459)
It seems Nevill Bamber was accustomed to holding shoots at WHF over the years, but not recently. I wonder if that was connected to his fears of a shooting accident? Although I don't think Jeremy took part in those shoots.
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It seems Nevill Bamber was accustomed to holding shoots at WHF over the years, but not recently. I wonder if that was connected to his fears of a shooting accident? Although I don't think Jeremy took part in those shoots.
Cite?
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Cite?
Cites are needed when stating that something is a fact. 'I think' means I'm not sure. Perhaps you know the answer?
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You seem to have a different understanding to mine. I thought Colin was complaining his typed statement didn't say what was in his handwritten statement. [sorry missed the word "didn't".]
The point I was trying to make was that the raison d'etre of the author is confirming that police always change witness statements by rewriting them in their own words.
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Cites are needed when stating that something is a fact. 'I think' means I'm not sure. Perhaps you know the answer?
Why would you 'think' he didn't?
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Cites are needed when stating that something is a fact. 'I think' means I'm not sure. Perhaps you know the answer?
What makes you "think" he didn't?
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Pike was in the phone business, he would know which phones were bought and which were rented. People here are just second guessing. The push button phone was usually in the kitchen and the dial usually in the bedroom, so why all of a sudden would the upstairs phone become the downstairs phone when the downstairs phone was in perfect working order?
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Pike was in the phone business, he would know which phones were bought and which were rented. People here are just second guessing. The push button phone was usually in the kitchen and the dial usually in the bedroom, so why all of a sudden would the upstairs phone become the downstairs phone when the downstairs phone was in perfect working order?
Which company made the Envoy? I've looked all over for the manufacturer, but couldn't see it listed anywhere as a GPO/BT product. So if made and sold by some unheard-of company, no wonder Pike in his w/s distinguished between it and the more common GPO/BT Statesman push-button phone.
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The point I was trying to make was that the raison d'etre of the author is confirming that police always change witness statements by rewriting them in their own words.
Was that the point you were trying to make?
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Was that the point you were trying to make?
Yes. The claims in the quote didn't sound right. Then I saw where it had come from. I think you'll find that it's largely been discredited.
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Yes. The claims in the quote didn't sound right. Then I saw where it had come from. I think you'll find that it's largely been discredited.
OK so it is no longer a matter of just Colin Caffell making a complaint but some argument about the author of this entire manuscript, that up to this moment I have thoroughly enjoyed reading for its enlightening background to the whole Jeremy Bamber affair.
The book is David Shaw's Innocent Man and it is covered as a blog and this is chapter 10 http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-10.html
Hit the links at the bottom of the page to go back to an earlier chapter.
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Yes. The claims in the quote didn't sound right. Then I saw where it had come from. I think you'll find that it's largely been discredited.
Discredited by whom?
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Discredited by whom?
Anyone can blog about whatever they wish and put their own spin on it. I hardly think Sheila Caffell is in any position to instruct a solicitor to start a libel action on her behalf and why would anyone else so libelled give the oxygen of publicity or the time of day to internet lies?
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OK so it is no longer a matter of just Colin Caffell making a complaint but some argument about the author of this entire manuscript, that up to this moment I have thoroughly enjoyed reading for its enlightening background to the whole Jeremy Bamber affair.
The book is David Shaw's Innocent Man and it is covered as a blog and this is chapter 10 http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-10.html
Hit the links at the bottom of the page to go back to an earlier chapter.
It needs no introduction to me. It's been doing the rounds for years.
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You seem to have a different understanding to mine. I thought Colin was complaining his typed statement didn't say what was in his handwritten statement. [sorry missed the word "didn't".]
The police wrote down what the witnesses said and the witness signed it. Colin's point was that his statement was then typed up and the typed version contained things he hadn't said. Not only that, but he learned of it because he read it in the newspapers, making him think the police had leaked to them. The police seem to have suggested the leaks came from the typing pool, rather than from officers.
[Rainbows End Kindle ed p943/4]
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The police wrote down what the witnesses said and the witness signed it. Colin's point was that his statement was then typed up and the typed version contained things he hadn't said. Not only that, but he learned of it because he read it in the newspapers, making him think the police had leaked to them. The police seem to have suggested the leaks came from the typing pool, rather than from officers.
[Rainbows End Kindle ed p943/4]
It contained one thing he hadn't said.
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The police wrote down what the witnesses said and the witness signed it. Colin's point was that his statement was then typed up and the typed version contained things he hadn't said. Not only that, but he learned of it because he read it in the newspapers, making him think the police had leaked to them. The police seem to have suggested the leaks came from the typing pool, rather than from officers.
[Rainbows End Kindle ed p943/4]
Thanks for that. But what they did in my own case was that the police actually destroyed the handwritten original version that had my signature on it and replaced it with notes. Was Colin ever able to prove he had signed an original?
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It contained one thing he hadn't said.
Well in an honest world a statement should only say the thing the witness actually said.
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Which company made the Envoy? I've looked all over for the manufacturer, but couldn't see it listed anywhere as a GPO/BT product. So if made and sold by some unheard-of company, no wonder Pike in his w/s distinguished between it and the more common GPO/BT Statesman push-button phone.
I can't find anything about an Envoy telephone anywhere?!
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I can't find anything about an Envoy telephone anywhere?!
Some of these posts are obviously on the wrong thread. They need to be transferred to the one discussing the telephones.