UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Wonderfulspam on May 04, 2014, 11:11:46 PM
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Madeleine McCann cops to start digging up resort where she vanished 7 years ago
While the search for missing Maddie continues the McCanns must also consider the possibility that her body will be found in police digs.
Kate and Gerry McCann have never given up hope their missing daughter Madeleine is alive – but they are now bracing themselves for the heartbreak of a police search for her body.
Scotland Yard detectives are preparing to go to Portugal to launch extensive digs in and around the holiday area where the youngster vanished seven years ago at the age of three. The tormented couple have been briefed by officers about their plans to search three sites near the Praia da Luz resort they were staying at.
It is understood a team of highly-skilled forensic officers will use radar equipment to look underground in the grim hunt for clues.
A source close to the McCann’s said: “Kate and Gerry have been told police will be conducting the searches in and around Praia da Luz as soon as they get the green light from Portuguese authorities.
“There will be earth diggers everywhere and it will look very dramatic and it will be a heartbreaking and hugely emotional time for Madeleine’s poor parents.
“They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip off. They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches.
“It will not be a mere fingertip search of certain areas, it will be full ground searches, using radar and other equipment. It is such a sensitive part of their investigation but it has to be done"
“Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for her body. They are doing searches as much as to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases.
“Certain areas should have been searched properly way back by the Portuguese authorities but were not.”
Kate and Gerry will not be going to Portugal but will be kept updated throughout.
The source revealed the dig will form a routine part of the Met’s cold case review into Madeleine.
It comes after a Crimewatch TV appeal resulted in new information coming to light. The source added: “They have been tasked with the painstaking job of going through every single detail the Portuguese police have already done, plus following up any new leads that have come in. They are looking into it with fresh eyes. New information has come in following Crimewatch but it is not known if any of it is linked to these searches.”
Police will dig two areas of land surrounding the Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, where Madeleine vanished on May 3 2007, and an area on the nearby beach
Saturday was the anniversary of the youngster’s disappearance and prayers were said for her at her village church in Rothley, Leics. Heart doctor Gerry, 45, told wellwishers: “The Met are going back out to Portugal very soon. They are chipping away and there is new evidence. We are going to continue hoping we get a happy outcome and one day we will know what’s happening.” Kate has admitted the pair could not be blinkered to “a worst case scenario” but they are said to have been buoyed by the new development. They previously raised concerns about the pace of progress in the new investigation after tensions were revealed between British and Portuguese investigators.
The Met had said they were confident of being able to start “operational activity” in Portugal soon but their hopes have so far failed to materialise. The latest news is a sign Portuguese detectives could be willing to grant full access to files and evidence their British counterparts on Operation Grange have been requesting for months. Sources say a team could be in place even by the end of the week to fly to Portugal to try to find what happened to Madeleine, whose 11th birthday is next Monday.
Kate, 46, said recently: “The passing of further weeks and months as a result of unnecessary delays and barriers are not only frustrating, they are distressing.
“Each day without Madeline and each day of not knowing is another day too many. I just want to know if she’s alive or dead.” The former GP told last week how she secretly returns to the resort to feel close to her daughter and “to walk those streets” and “look for answers”. But she has not been back since April last year.
Madeleine’s great uncle, Brian Kennedy, 75, said: “We would just like to know something, whatever news that may because not having any idea where Madeleine is, is so difficult.”
Police are trying to identify a serial sex beast who may have struck at least 18 times in Algarve resorts from 2004 to 2010, assaulting British girls as young as 10 as they slept in their beds. In some attacks he wearing a burgundy, long-sleeved top. It may have had a white circle on the back.
Around six weeks after Madeleine vanished, police unearthed a potential burial site in the village of village of Arao, nine miles from Praia da Luz following a tip-off from a Dutch newspaper. But the search found nothing and that part of the probe was dropped.
The McCann’s official spokesperson Clarence Mitchell last night refused to comment on the latest planned digs. Scotland Yard said: “We do not provide a running commentary on ongoing investigations.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
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'Scotland Yard detectives are preparing to go to Portugal to launch extensive digs in and around the holiday area where the youngster vanished seven years ago at the age of three.'
BUT if they are digging around the resort that would mean she wasnt abducted?? ie THEY THINK her body could be there??
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
A source close to the McCann’s said: ... “ They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip off. They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches."
Is this 'source close to the McCanns' an imbecile ?
You don't bring in 'earth diggers' to look for missed clues ... you bring in earth diggers to look for a body !
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Is this 'source close to the McCanns' an imbecile ?
You don't bring in 'earth diggers' to look for missed clues ... you bring in earth diggers to look for a body !
and isnt that saying that SY believe maddie is NOT alive??
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Why indeed Sadie.
If it was my kid I would be there all the time looking for her and encouraging the police to do the same. It's as if they have abandoned any hope regardless of the tune they play in public. Remind me, how many days in the last year have they spent SEARCHING?
If they have time to do interviews for the BBC and Sky News they have time to look for their child...surely?
Aw, come on John. That is very naive. Do you think there is a cat-in-hells chance that Madeleine is still in PdL ?
She went straight up to Porto, almost without doubt.
A string of sightings very much points to that.
You are from farming stock, I know that, BUT ....
Searching does not only mean looking visually in dustbins etc, digging the ground etc (which might be illegal) but also getting help from others via publicity and appeals. You may not realise just how much work would be involved organizing publicity and appeals, then sifting thru the input and checking things out.
The Mccanns have acheived a master stroke, by getting SY involved. SY are unlikely to want them on the ground in PT whilst they investigaye, imo.
Remind me, how many potential leads did SY get after the crimewatch program ?
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Is this 'source close to the McCanns' an imbecile ?
You don't bring in 'earth diggers' to look for missed clues ... you bring in earth diggers to look for a body !
Almost certainly.
Yep, if this article is actually news and not something else along the lines of 'arrests imminent" with different suspects thrown in every couple of months, well, it's actually news!
It does explain the rather sudden turn around it the mccanns most recent interviews from "we're sure she's alive" to "we just want to know". My best guess is that they were informed of the dig ahead of the interviews.
We shall see if this goes anywhere.
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Aw, come on John. That is very naive. Do you think there is a cat-in-hells chance that Madeleine is still in PdL ?
She went straight up to Porto, almost without doubt.
A string of sightings very much points to that.
You are from farming stock, I know that, BUT ....
Searching does not only mean looking visually in dustbins etc, digging the ground etc (which might be illegal) but also getting help from others via publicity and appeals. You may not realise just how much work would be involved organizing publicity and appeals, then sifting thru the input and checking things out.
The Mccanns have acheived a master stroke, by getting SY involved. SY are unlikely to want them on the ground in PT whilst they investigaye, imo.
Remind me, how many potential leads did SY get after the crimewatch program ?
Funny, that's where sy are going to dig....
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Funny, that's where sy are going to dig....
it came up here on sky news australia very brief saying breaking news SY to dig in PDL for missing madelines body or words to that affect
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
"two areas of land surrounding the Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, ... and an area on the nearby beach."
If this Mirror article is correct, IMO the "area on the nearby beach" might mean whole of the little west beach (based maybe on rua escola sighting)? And for the "two areas of land" guessing one of them might be the large plot west of blocks 5 and 4 just because of its proximity?
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
"two areas of land surrounding the Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, ... and an area on the nearby beach."
If this Mirror article is correct, IMO the "area on the nearby beach" might mean whole of the little west beach (based maybe on rua escola sighting)? And for the "two areas of land" guessing one of them might be the large plot west of blocks 5 and 4 just because of its proximity?
I don't think you ... or anyone else apart from the police ... have any idea where ( or why ) the earth diggers are planned
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The police must have some very specific information if they are undertaking this expensive procedure. No-one could possibly have buried a body in an open area in Luz in the days following Madeleine's disappearance without someone seeing. I don't believe she is there, though.
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They should be digging the landfill imo.
I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here.
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The police must have some very specific information if they are undertaking this expensive procedure. No-one could possibly have buried a body in an open area in Luz in the days following Madeleine's disappearance without someone seeing. I don't believe she is there, though.
witness saw 2 people with a child heading to the beach the morning around the same time as maddie vanished
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They should be digging the landfill imo.
I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here.
My thoughts exactly WS.
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witness saw 2 people with a child heading to the beach the morning around the same time as maddie vanished
Not with you, Carly. Madeleine was taken at night. Tracker dogs would have scented her the following morning.
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Not with you, Carly. Madeleine was taken at night. Tracker dogs would have scented her the following morning.
early hours like 4am
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
"two areas of land surrounding the Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, ... and an area on the nearby beach."
If this Mirror article is correct, IMO the "area on the nearby beach" might mean whole of the little west beach (based maybe on rua escola sighting)? And for the "two areas of land" guessing one of them might be the large plot west of blocks 5 and 4 just because of its proximity?
As Icabod says , we dont know, but the little western beach is a none runner imo because it is totally washed twice everyday by the tide coming in.
When I was there I managed to get down to the tiny cove via a longish flight of decrepid, also overgrown and crumbling steps, and there was no sign of any beach as far as the eye could see. In fact the sea was washing over the rocks I would have had to walk over. My guess is that the water was about 2 feet high.
In such a cove I think it is fair to believe that currents would form which would scour out the sand and turn anything up
Also my guess is that no-one would risk taking the steps down in such a dark spot. However there is what appears to be a tunnel that comes out into the cove. Maybe a smugglers tunnel from times gone by, even recent times? If someone knew of this tunnels entrance, then maybe the beach could have been accessed safely.
But still the same scenario stands, with the beach being washed and scoured twice daily.
Amarals theory about Gerry maybe burying a dead Madeleine there and moving her weeks later, just doesn't hold any water tbh ... cos she would have been washed away
If she went to that cove, then almost without doubt, she was put in a small boat and taken out to sea to join a larger boat. IMO of course
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early hours like 4am
Which witness, Carly? I must have missed that statement.
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IMO they would use various devices which can detect possibly disturbed ground etc, radar is actually mentioned in the article , and there are other technologies too.
"it will be full ground searches, using radar and other equipment"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-cops-3496784
BTW can anyone guess what highly sensitive "equipment" the vaguely worded "and other equipment" is i.m.o. certain to include?
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Well those earth diggers are not going to be randomly churning dirt all over PDL, that's for sure
There's a reason they've been brought in ... a specific reason
Has to be
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All around the church to the rocks, building site behind church at the time. All that area should be searched for possible clues. Already made holes at the time and quickly filled if she was concealed there. If that did happen she didn't stay there but they may find something. And they should check the cliff face.
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Wonder if the Met are including some cadaver dogs with their specialist equipment?
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Wonder if the Met are including some cadaver dogs with their specialist equipment?
I thought they had already checked the beach? From memory - so could be wrong.
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Wonder if the Met are including some cadaver dogs with their specialist equipment?
IMO: Absolutely certainly.
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IMO: Absolutely certainly.
Agreed the dogs may start and finish this case.
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I thought they had already checked the beach? From memory - so could be wrong.
Did the Portuguese police ever bring in 'earth diggers' ? ... or is this the first time that has been proposed ?
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And the Rocha Nera where the neighbour saw the car?
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So Scotland Yard are going to PDL to dig for Madeleine's body ?
Is that where the investigation is at ?
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So Scotland Yard are going to PDL to dig for Madeleine's body ?
Is that where the investigation is at ?
IT JUST SAID ON SKY NEWS ( AUSTRALIA) that the mcanns have been told about this and are they going to be digging in 3 spots and that the mcanns wont be going to portugal??
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The Guardian is reporting that Met is saying they won't comment on speculations..
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/05/madeleine-mccann-portugal-forensics-excavations?
So, this whole digging business might be a speculation?
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The Guardian is reporting that Met is saying they won't comment on speculations..
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/05/madeleine-mccann-portugal-forensics-excavations?
So, this whole digging business might be a speculation?
our australian media are reporting it
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our australian media are reporting it
They might be reporting it but it doesn't mean it is true.
I trust The Guardian more.
And I am waiting for the BBC to report it!
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They might be reporting it but it doesn't mean it is true.
I trust The Guardian more.
And I am waiting for the BBC to report it!
You don't believe a search for Madeleine's body is planned then ?
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You don't believe a search for Madeleine's body is planned then ?
sadly thats exactly what i think it is?? i doubt there would be a body by now either look at caylee anthony and daniel morcombe
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You don't believe a search for Madeleine's body is planned then ?
The source of this story is not a trusting source.
From these sources it is just as any other news reported from the same source.
Their next news from the Mirror is that Euclides Monteiro is the prime suspect.
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Madeleine McCann cops to start digging up resort where she vanished 7 years ago
May 04, 2014 22:49
By Tracey Kandohla, Russell Myers
While the search for missing Maddie continues the McCanns must also consider the possibility that her body will be found in police digs
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Kate and Gerry McCann have never given up hope their missing daughter Madeleine is alive – but they are now bracing themselves for the heartbreak of a police search for her body.
Scotland Yard detectives are preparing to go to Portugal to launch extensive digs in and around the holiday area where the youngster vanished seven years ago at the age of three. The tormented couple have been briefed by officers about their plans to search three sites near the Praia da Luz resort they were staying at.
It is understood a team of highly-skilled forensic officers will use radar equipment to look underground in the grim hunt for clues.
A source close to the McCann’s said: “Kate and Gerry have been told police will be conducting the searches in and around Praia da Luz as soon as they get the green light from Portuguese authorities.
“There will be earth diggers everywhere and it will look very dramatic and it will be a heartbreaking and hugely emotional time for Madeleine’s poor parents.
“They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip off. They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches.
“It will not be a mere fingertip search of certain areas, it will be full ground searches, using radar and other equipment. It is such a sensitive part of their investigation but it has to be done.
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Exclusive: British Police officers from Scotland Yard arrive in Portugal
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“Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for her body. They are doing searches as much as to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases.
“Certain areas should have been searched properly way back by the Portuguese authorities but were not.”
Kate and Gerry will not be going to Portugal but will be kept updated throughout.
The source revealed the dig will form a routine part of the Met’s cold case review into Madeleine.
It comes after a Crimewatch TV appeal resulted in new information coming to light. The source added: “They have been tasked with the painstaking job of going through every single detail the Portuguese police have already done, plus following up any new leads that have come in. They are looking into it with fresh eyes. New information has come in following Crimewatch but it is not known if any of it is linked to these searches.”
Police will dig two areas of land surrounding the Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, where Madeleine vanished on May 3 2007, and an area on the nearby beach.
PA Kate and Gerry McCann.
Kate and Gerry McCann.
Saturday was the anniversary of the youngster’s disappearance and prayers were said for her at her village church in Rothley, Leics. Heart doctor Gerry, 45, told wellwishers: “The Met are going back out to Portugal very soon. They are chipping away and there is new evidence. We are going to continue hoping we get a happy outcome and one day we will know what’s happening.” Kate has admitted the pair could not be blinkered to “a worst case scenario” but they are said to have been buoyed by the new development. They previously raised concerns about the pace of progress in the new investigation after tensions were revealed between British and Portuguese investigators.
The Met had said they were confident of being able to start “operational activity” in Portugal soon but their hopes have so far failed to materialise. The latest news is a sign Portuguese detectives could be willing to grant full access to files and evidence their British counterparts on Operation Grange have been requesting for months. Sources say a team could be in place even by the end of the week to fly to Portugal to try to find what happened to Madeleine, whose 11th birthday is next Monday.
Kate, 46, said recently: “The passing of further weeks and months as a result of unnecessary delays and barriers are not only frustrating, they are distressing.
“Each day without Madeline and each day of not knowing is another day too many. I just want to know if she’s alive or dead.” The former GP told last week how she secretly returns to the resort to feel close to her daughter and “to walk those streets” and “look for answers”. But she has not been back since April last year.
Madeleine’s great uncle, Brian Kennedy, 75, said: “We would just like to know something, whatever news that may because not having any idea where Madeleine is, is so difficult.”
The Daily Mirror Praia da Luz
Praia da Luz
Police are trying to identify a serial sex beast who may have struck at least 18 times in Algarve resorts from 2004 to 2010, assaulting British girls as young as 10 as they slept in their beds. In some attacks he wearing a burgundy, long-sleeved top. It may have had a white circle on the back.
Around six weeks after Madeleine vanished, police unearthed a potential burial site in the village of village of Arao, nine miles from Praia da Luz following a tip-off from a Dutch newspaper. But the search found nothing and that part of the probe was dropped.
The McCann’s official spokesperson Clarence Mitchell last night refused to comment on the latest planned digs. Scotland Yard said: “We do not provide a running commentary on ongoing investigations.”
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Funny, that's where sy are going to dig....
The last I heard it was Dave Edgar's theory too that she isn't too far from Praia da Luz.
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There is certainly something going on what with all the recent hints from SY that Madeleine might be deceased after all. And not to mention the McCann's latest reaction to that independently produced artists impression of Madeleine at 11 that they have chosen to deride.
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Madeleine McCann: UK police travel to Portugal resort to oversee excavations
Report says forensics team plan to use radar equipment to look underground for clues to child's disappearance seven years ago
The search for missing child Madeleine McCann is set to enter a new phase as British police prepare to travel to Portugal to oversee excavations in the Portuguese resort where she went missing seven years ago, according to a report.
A team of forensic officers will use radar equipment to look underground for clues to her disappearance, according to a report in the Daily Mirror, which cited police sources.
The child's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were said to have been told of the plans to search three sites near the Praia da Lux resort but are not expected to go to Portugal.
Madeleine went missing from her family's rented holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on 3 May 2007, as her parents dined with friends at a nearby tapas bar.
A spokesman for the Metropolitan police said that the force would neither confirm nor deny the report. "We are not going to give a running commentary," he said. "From the beginning of Operation Grange [the UK-led hunt for Madeleine], we have made it clear that speculation has been unhelpful to the investigation and that continues to be the case.
"As we have said from the beginning, we will not be commenting on any speculation surrounding this investigation."
Police said last month that they knew of nine sexual assaults and three "near misses" on British girls between the ages of six and 12 who were on holiday in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006.
Scotland Yard began a review of the case in May 2011 – codenamed Operation Grange – and opened a formal investigation last July.
Five new cases in which young girls were assaulted and one near miss came to light as a result of an appeal in March for information about a lone predator entering rooms of British families on holiday.
The Met said more than 500 people came forward and its officers were cautiously optimistic that they would be soon be working on the ground with Portuguese authorities, who will remain in charge of the investigation despite hopes of a joint operation. Portuguese police last year reopened their investigation after discovering new lines of inquiry.
There is a £20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of those responsible for Madeleine's disappearance. Anyone with information can call police on 0207 321 9251 or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/05/madeleine-mccann-portugal-forensics-excavations
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It would be nice to think that this radar search will actually happen - some genuine searching of the area as opposed to the mere scanning of documents and postulations over possible suspects and persons of interest.
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The last I heard it was Dave Edgar's theory too that she isn't too far from Praia da Luz.
Didn't he think she was held in some nearby lawless village, held by some latter-day Hole in the Wall Gang?
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Funny, that's where sy are going to dig....
According to the tabloids.
I think NSY are having a bad enough time of it in Portugal trying to get access to witnesses to rule them in or out.
Not terribly sure precisely what the reaction would be to them ripping up the environs of Praia da Luz with huge diggers in the middle of the holiday season.
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According to the tabloids.
I think NSY are having a bad enough time of it in Portugal trying to get access to witnesses to rule them in or out.
Not terribly sure precisely what the reaction would be to them ripping up the environs of Praia da Luz with huge diggers in the middle of the holiday season.
Not just the tabloids - the Guardian is carrying the article as well. It will be interesting to see what actually happens and whether SY are just there as observers .
From what we have seen on programmes like Time Team, ground radar can be quite effective in locating objects.
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Not just the tabloids - the Guardian is carrying the article as well. It will be interesting to see what actually happens and whether SY are just there as observers .
From what we have seen on programmes like Time Team, ground radar can be quite effective in locating objects.
Time Team is one of my all time favourite TV programmes, one of the main things I learned from watching ground radar in operation is how open to interpretation the readings are.
Quite often the evidence or lack of it resulting from the dig very often did not correlate with the expectation raised by the ground radar readings and the resulting argy bargy made for excellent television .
I think the Portuguese authorities are going to take a lot of convincing to allow the deployment of mechanical diggers.
Perhaps someone with a firm grasp of police procedures could advise of the rights or wrongs but it is my opinion that this is putting the cart before the horse.
The civil authorities have to be convinced and that could take some doing.
The police - particularly a foreign force - can’t go on a fishing expedition digging holes all over the place in the hope of finding something, and nothing is certain even when acting on what seems to be sound information.
For example, despite intelligence from a witness and confirming alerts from dogs an excavation did not result in Mr Hoffa’s body being recovered.
As far as we know NSY have not yet been allowed to follow through or even start the initial cold case investigation.
Therefore my opinion is that whether reported in the tabloids or broadsheets, exploratory digging of holes is putting the cart before the horse, and might this not be something to do with eliminating the question of what lies beneath Mr Murat’s drive?
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Time Team is one of my all time favourite TV programmes, one of the main things I learned from watching ground radar in operation is how open to interpretation the readings are.
Quite often the evidence or lack of it resulting from the dig very often did not correlate with the expectation raised by the ground radar readings and the resulting argy bargy made for excellent television .
I think the Portuguese authorities are going to take a lot of convincing to allow the deployment of mechanical diggers.
Perhaps someone with a firm grasp of police procedures could advise of the rights or wrongs but it is my opinion that this is putting the cart before the horse.
The civil authorities have to be convinced and that could take some doing.
The police - particularly a foreign force - can’t go on a fishing expedition digging holes all over the place in the hope of finding something, and nothing is certain even when acting on what seems to be sound information.
For example, despite intelligence from a witness and confirming alerts from dogs an excavation did not result in Mr Hoffa’s body being recovered.
As far as we know NSY have not yet been allowed to follow through or even start the initial cold case investigation.
Therefore my opinion is that whether reported in the tabloids or broadsheets, exploratory digging of holes is putting the cart before the horse, and might this not be something to do with eliminating the question of what lies beneath Mr Murat’s drive?
Like with most things, we need to wait and see what develops.
From what is being reported, forensic scientists are involved and they are not likely to be using mechanical diggers. The Portuguese authorities may be be quite happy with this, particularly if SY are seen to be there in an advisory capacity, rather than openly directing operations.
If nothing is found, it will be another area of investigation eliminated and if remains of Madeleine are unearthed, then the reinvestigation will have achieved at least part of its objective.
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When the tabloids report that SY are poised to make arrests in PdL, we get much scoffing and jeering in forumland. When the tabloids report that SY are poised with mechanical diggers to dig up the resort looking for a body, disbelief is momentarily suspended and we seem to get much excitement in forumland. Bizarre.
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When the tabloids report that SY are poised to make arrests in PdL, we get much scoffing and jeering in forumland. When the tabloids report that SY are poised with mechanical diggers to dig up the resort looking for a body, disbelief is momentarily suspended and we seem to get much excitement in forumland. Bizarre.
I think most of us will believe this when we see it happen.
The deployment of forensic scientists is, however, far less contentious than that of serving police officers in a foreign country and may provide a positive step forward.
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I think most of us will believe this when we see it happen.
The deployment of forensic scientists is, however, far less contentious than that of serving police officers in a foreign country and may provide a positive step forward.
I agree. I kind of hope it is true. If the PJ did not do a thorough search of the area then it is high time one was done, even if it means everyone's worst fears that Madeleine is dead are confirmed. The McCanns above all deserve to know what happened to their daughter and get some closure at last.
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When the tabloids report that SY are poised to make arrests in PdL, we get much scoffing and jeering in forumland. When the tabloids report that SY are poised with mechanical diggers to dig up the resort looking for a body, disbelief is momentarily suspended and we seem to get much excitement in forumland. Bizarre.
Why would anybody get excited about suspects who look nothing like the man seen carrying her towards the beach. Black men, creepy men and now fat smelly man 8-)(--)
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Why would anybody get excited about suspects who look nothing like the man seen carrying her towards the beach. Black men, creepy men and now fat smelly man 8-)(--)
Why would anyone get excited about the prospect of mechanical diggers looking for a little girl's body? I think you missed the point I was making in any case.
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Why would anyone get excited about the prospect of mechanical diggers looking for a little girl's body? I think you missed the point I was making in any case.
Unfortunately the harsh reality is that she is probably dead. And they will want to find her or find clues to know if Smithman hid her towards the beach where he was last seen.
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Unfortunately the harsh reality is that she is probably dead. And if so they will want to find her or find clues to know if Smithman hid her towards the beach where he was last seen.
Why has it taken 7 years to get to this point?
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From the beginning, the police have always been directed towards a live abduction.
We have been told that the investigation was reopened because of new evidence - presumably some of this new evidence points towards the concealment of Madeleine's body.
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From the beginning, the police have always been directed towards a live abduction.
We have been told that the investigation was reopened because of new evidence - presumably some of this new evidence points towards the concealment of Madeleine's body.
How does your statement "from the beginning the police have always been directed towards a live abduction" square with Amaral's own revelation in his book that he suspected right from Day 1 that the parents were involved?
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If the PJ conducted a proper search then why are diggers only just now (allegedly) being deployed? Where did the PJ dig?
Doesn't really matter - where they are going to dig now is far more important.
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Doesn't really matter - where they are going to dig now is far more important.
Do you think it doesn't matter that the PJ didn't conduct proper searches? I think it does actually.
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How does your statement "from the beginning the police have always been directed towards a live abduction" square with Amaral's own revelation in his book that he suspected right from Day 1 that the parents were involved?
As I understand it, Amaral was/is convinced of the involvement of the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance, not necessarily her death. Only later did he come to believe that Madeleine was dead, so in the meantime, (until his removal), he was looking for a living child.
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Do you think it doesn't matter that the PJ didn't conduct proper searches? I think it does actually.
You asked where did they dig, not whether they did a thorough search.
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Do you think it doesn't matter that the PJ didn't conduct proper searches? I think it does actually.
I'd imagine they were far too busy dealing with all them sightings.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id27.html
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As I understand it, Amaral was/is convinced of the involvement of the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance, not necessarily her death. Only later did he come to believe that Madeleine was dead, so in the meantime, (until his removal), he was looking for a living child.
Not a very good policeman then was he?
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"Me and Gerry you know I’m not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o’ clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach." (DP)
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It is literally a minefield, like looking for a needle in a haystack. The terrain east of Praia da Luz in particular is easily accessible for anyone wanting to hide a body.
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If the PJ conducted a proper search then why are diggers only just now (allegedly) being deployed? Where did the PJ dig?
Where would they have been expected to dig? If this digging does commence it will be interesting as to how they know where to carry this out.
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Where would they have been expected to dig? If this digging does commence it will be interesting as to how they know where to carry this out.
I expect the digs will take place in the most logical places to dig, places where a body most likely would have been hidden in PdL and its immediate environs, that would be a starting point wouldn't it?
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[quote removed as speculative]
No, he decided on the 4th of May who dunnit and then tried desperately hard (but failed) to find any evidence to fit his theory. He then wrote up his theory in the form of a book from which to make lots of money, only problem was his theory was utterly implausible based on nothing more than an overactive imagination.
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Do you think it doesn't matter that the PJ didn't conduct proper searches? I think it does actually.
Only if Madeleine's remains are discovered in this bout of digging will it be justified in criticising any earlier dig - After all nothing may be found this time, either.
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I have no idea and quite frankly, my dear, I couldn't give a damn whether he was or wasn't.
If you genuinely have any interest in the fate of Madeleine McCann or in justice generally I would have thought you would care whether or not the policeman in charge of the case of a missing child was competent. Personally it saddens and angers me that the man performed in his role so poorly, and then had the temerity to cash in using his half-baked "thesis".
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"Kate was going to provide us, indirectly, with indications about where her daughter’s body was to be found. Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power." (Truth of the Lie)
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People are going to have to do an awful lot of revision, if this digging turns up anything definite.
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People are going to have to do an awful lot of revision, if this digging turns up anything definite.
Well I won't for a start. I have always thought the most likely outcome is that her remains will be found within a short radius of where she went missing. That's not to say I haven't also hoped to be wrong and that she is still alive somewhere.
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People are going to have to do an awful lot of revision, if this digging turns up anything definite.
why....
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For a start, if a body is found, that will discount all the sighting theories - except perhaps one.
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For a start, if a body is found, that will discount all the sighting theories - except perhaps one.
all the sightings probably are false...the best case scenario would be if maddie was found alive...but if she is found dead then at least there will be closure and some questions hopefully answerred
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all the sightings probably are false...the best case scenario would be if maddie was found alive...but if she is found dead then at least there will be closure and some questions hopefully answerred
Of course they are, but people still believe them.
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Of course they are, but people still believe them.
They may be right...no body knows
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They may be right...no body knows
At the moment, which is why I said if a body is found
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Of course they are, but people still believe them.
You seem to be under the impression that every time there is a publicised sighting that everyone (who is not a doubter, obviously) believes it must be true. I believe there are sightings, but until one has been verified I will remain open minded to the possibility, though not hugely hopeful, that it is Madeleine.
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Criticism is being placed with Amaral and the PJ for not undertaking digs 7 years ago but where? The area around Praia da Luz is mostly unworked scrubland and hillside. It is impossible to dig everywhere.
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You seem to be under the impression that every time there is a publicised sighting that everyone (who is not a doubter, obviously) believes it must be true. I believe there are sightings, but until one has been verified I will remain open minded to the possibility, though not hugely hopeful, that it is Madeleine.
I wasn't so much thinking of these international flights of fancy, but rather things like the marina sighting, the taxi sighting, the garage/shop sighting.
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Quote from the Mirror; source I neither know nor care.
"There will be earth diggers everywhere and it will look very dramatic and it will be a heartbreaking and hugely emotional time for Madeleine's poor parents.
One backhoe would be enough, two would be plenty. Unless the MPS are building a motorway or power station or knocking down half the village of course.
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I wasn't so much thinking of these international flights of fancy, but rather things like the marina sighting, the taxi sighting, the garage/shop sighting.
Again, you seem to be under the impression that I (as I assume you are bringing this up in response to my point about the Marina Sighting) am convinced that it was Madeleine. No, I am simply stating that in my opinion it was remiss of the PJ to not thoroughly investigate each sighting, but instead to dismiss them as "irrelevant" without further ado, based on nothing more than a hunch that they already knew who dunnit.
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British police investigating Madeleine McCann case in Portugal 'prepare to dig' near to resort she vanished from in 2007
Scotland Yard detectives are said to be planning to fly out to the Algarve
They will excavate two sites at Praia da Luz resort where McCanns stayed
Officers will dig up a third site at the beach nearby in hope for fresh clues
Dig is not believed to have been prompted by any specific new information
Source said it was part of the Met's routine review in the unsolved case
Madeleine's parents, Gerry and Kate, will stay at home in Leicestershire
Mr McCann, 45, said they wanted to find out what happened to toddler
British detectives are to fly to Portugal to dig up land near the holiday apartments from where Madeleine McCann went missing in May 2007.
Scotland Yard officers plan to excavate two sites near the Ocean Club apartments at Praia da Luz, and a third site on the nearby beach, it was reported today.
Madeleine's parents will not fly out for the search but her father, Gerry McCann, 45, said he and his wife, Kate, 46, were still 'hoping for a happy outcome'.
The decision to dig up the land in the Algarve is believed not to have come from a specific piece of new information but as part of a routine police review by British detectives into the unsolved case.
British police, who will use radar equipment to look for disturbed earth or potential evidence, are said to be hoping to find any pieces of information or clues that may have been missed by their Portugese counterparts.
A friend of the McCanns' said the police were not specifically looking for a body, but were hoping to rule possible scenarios out as well as find new information.
The source told the Mirror: 'There will be earth diggers everywhere and it will look very dramatic and it will be a heartbreaking and hugely emotional time for Madeleine's poor parents.'
'Certain areas should have been searched properly way back by the Portuguese authorities but were not.'
The latest Crimewatch television appeal for new leads on the hunt for Madeleine gave police fresh information and they are hoping that the digs might provide further clues.
Mr McCann, who on Saturday attended a prayer service in the his village of Rothley, Leicestershire, on the seventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, said that the police were heading out to Portugal shortly.
He said the detectives did have new evidence, and insisted he and his wife continued to hope for the best.
The cardiologist said: 'They are chipping away and there is new evidence. We are going to continue hoping we get a happy outcome and one day we will know what's happening.'
Brian Kennedy, 75, the great-uncle of Madeleine, who would now be ten, said the family was hoping for news as not knowing what had happened to the child was so difficult.
A spokesman for Scotland Yard said it was protocol not to comment on specific reports on the McCann case.
News of the digs in Portugal comes after it emerged that British police were looking to speak to a British paedophile who was arrested at a campside in the Algarve in 2010 and extradited to Australia where he was wanted for a 1998 rape of an eight-year-old.
Officers are said to believe that Roderick Robinson, 77, who jumped bail in Australia and fled to the Far East following another conviction in the UK in 2012, may have information about a child sex ring operating in the Algarve when Madeleine went missing seven years ago.
An international arrest warrant is out for Robinson, who at one point settled in Brighton before changing his name and going abroad.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2620513/Maddie-digs.html
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Criticism is being placed with Amaral and the PJ for not undertaking digs 7 years ago but where? The area around Praia da Luz is mostly unworked scrubland and hillside. It is impossible to dig everywhere.
Well, let's start with the premise that the parents buried the child's body, which was the PJ's own contention. The suspects didn't have a car for at least 3 weeks so perhaps the PJ could have put themselves in the shoes of their suspects and dug in those places that would seem the most obvious ones for burying a small child's body. It would have been a start wouldn't it? They could even have used the indomitable Eddie & Keela to narrow down the search. Why didn't they?
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Again, you seem to be under the impression that I (as I assume you are bringing this up in response to my point about the Marina Sighting) am convinced that it was Madeleine. No, I am simply stating that in my opinion it was remiss of the PJ to not thoroughly investigate each sighting, but instead to dismiss them as "irrelevant" without further ado, based on nothing more than a hunch that they already knew who dunnit.
My intent was to demonstrate that these issues would be resolved if Madeleine's remains were found.
Of course, absolutely nothing may come of this dig and the saga may continue.
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My intent was to demonstrate that these issues would be resolved if Madeleine's remains were found.
Of course, absolutely nothing may come of this dig and the saga may continue.
Almost certainly the outcome of this I would think, but we shall see.
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Well, let's start with the premise that the parents buried the child's body, which was the PJ's own contention. The suspects didn't have a car for at least 3 weeks so perhaps the PJ could have put themselves in the shoes of their suspects and dug in those places that would seem the most obvious ones for burying a small child's body. It would have been a start wouldn't it? They could even have used the indomitable Eddie & Keela to narrow down the search. Why didn't they?
Perhaps that's what they intend to do.
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Police to dig up Portuguese resort in search for Madeleine McCann clues
DETECTIVES confirmed they will return to the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann vanished to dig for clues, just days after the seventh anniversary of the three-year-old's disappearance.
Distraught parents Kate and Gerry McCann were informed about the decision made by Scotland Yard as the investigation picks up.
Forensic officers are said to be heading to the Praia da Luz resort with high-tech equipment where they can search underground in an attempt to find anything that can lead to finding Maddie.
But the couple now prepare for further heartbreak with the thought of police finding her body.
A source close to the McCann family said the search is being done with thoughts that Portuguese authorities failed to search the area properly in 2007.
They told the Mirror: “There will be earth diggers everywhere and it will look very dramatic and it will be a heartbreaking and hugely emotional time for Madeleine’s poor parents.
“They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip off. They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches.
"They are doing searches as much as to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases.
“Certain areas should have been searched properly way back by the Portuguese authorities but were not."
Last week, British police announced they would push on in their investigation to find more clues surrounding the ongoing mystery.
And with Portuguese police refusing to work with Scotland Yard, investigators will be able to look at the case with "fresh eyes", according to the source.
A Met spokesperson said that new evidence that has emerged in in recent months makes them "optimistic" for the future.
It is believed police will dig close to Ocean Club’s Apartment 5A, where Maddie went missing on May 3, 2007, as well as on a nearby beach where witnesses said they saw a young, blonde-haired girl being carried by a potential suspect late that night.
The McCanns will remain in England as the police go out to Portugal to investigate.
Gerry, 45, told the media: “The Met are going back out to Portugal very soon. They are chipping away and there is new evidence. We are going to continue hoping we get a happy outcome and one day we will know what’s happening."
Earlier this week, Kate, 46, admitted that she has been going out there once or twice a year to "look for answers".
She said: I do go back. That was the last place we were with Madeleine.
"When I go to Praia da Luz, I go quietly.
"I'll still walk those streets and I guess try to look for answers."
Saturday marked the seven year anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance and Kate said that after all this time, the not-knowing is the worst thing.
She said: "We cannot change anything that’s happened now.
“We need to know. The worst thing is not knowing.
"We obviously want Madeleine back number one — but we do want an answer, whatever."
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/377454/Police-to-dig-up-Portuguese-resort-in-hunt-for-Madeleine-McCann-clues
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Almost certainly the outcome of this I would think, but we shall see.
I don't see how you can have any degree of certainty at this stage.
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Perhaps that's what they intend to do.
And it's taken them seven years to arrive at this point - why?
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I don't see how you can have any degree of certainty at this stage.
It's my opinion, I am not certain, only think it the most likely outcome.
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20 squaure kilometres or something like 12 square miles.
That's a heck of a lot of digging.
Harrison's hedged view was that if death had occurred it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been deposited into the sea ...
Then again, Grime didn't listen to Harrison.
So why should anyone else?
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And it's taken them seven years to arrive at this point - why?
Most of that time the case had been inactive - archived.
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Most of that time the case had been inactive - archived.
So the information used to reopen the case that has been in the files has been ignored
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20 squaure kilometres or something like 12 square miles.
That's a heck of a lot of digging.
Harrison's hedged view was that if death had occurred it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been deposited into the sea ...
Then again, Grime didn't listen to Harrison.
So why should anyone else?
Unless prime suspect Smithman walked a further 100 metres into the sea where do you think they'll start searching?
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Before I attempt to read through this entire thread... is the Met on record concerning these supposed digs, or is it just more tabloid rumour that has spread like the usual Chinese whispers?
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So the information used to reopen the case that has been in the files has been ignored
You would have to address that question to the officers in charge at the time.
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Unless prime suspect Smithman walked a further 100 metres into the sea where do you think they'll start searching?
There has been speculation about the Murats driveway, so I think they will start there. Seems Robert Murat is about to get a new drive !
'Twould be a good thing to get that out of the way, dont you think?
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Most of that time the case had been inactive - archived.
Well why didn't they conduct the searches while the case WAS active then? Bit of a glaring oversight wasn't it?
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Before I attempt to read through this entire thread... is the Met on record concerning these supposed digs, or is it just more tabloid rumour that has spread like the usual Chinese whispers?
Maybe it is true and they are trying to trick the dog?
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There has been speculation about the Murats driveway, so I think they will start there. Seems Robert Murat is about to get a new drive !
'Twould be a good thing to get that out of the way, dont you think?
I very much doubt they will start with Murat's drive, the clear implication of such an activity would be that he was involved in her disappearance and unless they have some evidence that he is and have a warrant to search his property, I doubt he would give them permission.
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There has been speculation about the Murats driveway, so I think they will start there. Seems Robert Murat is about to get a new drive !
'Twould be a good thing to get that out of the way, dont you think?
No it wouldn't. She is not there 8-)(--)
PAT KENNY: It is 7 years since 3 year old Madeleine McCann disappeared in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz. If she is alive she is a very different looking 10 year old but it looks as though the British investigating Police do not believe in such a likelihood because it is reported in today’s Mirror that they will be launching extensive digs around the resort in the hopes of recovering her body. The Mirror’s Russell Myers joins me now from Praia da Luz. Russell, good morning.
RUSSELL MYERS: Good morning Pat.
PAT KENNY: Now, The English police, the British police are they acting on any specific information?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well it seems that the investigation carried out by the Met police, Operation Grange which is going over a lot of the evidence that the Portuguese police had been examining since 2007. This isn’t actually new evidence that has been uncovered with the new investigation but it’s certainly a new revisiting of the old facts in case files from the Portuguese police.
PAT KENNY: Now, at the time there were searches I suppose in the believe that Madeleine may be still alive or if she had been killed that an opportunistic killer would dispose of her body somewhere adjacent to the scene of the abduction. Why were those searches not as thorough and as extensive as it would appear were needed at the time?
RUSSELL MYERS: I think this is been a problem with the Portuguese investigation in terms of how the British have seen how the Portuguese investigation was carried out in the first instance and I think to entirely satisfy themselves they want to go over old ground and to look at these excavation sites or potential sites that were earmarked in the first instance but potentially not carried out, so by British Police applying to Portuguese police to come out here and start excavating certain sites in and around Praia da Luz and the beach and the area where Madeleine went missing I think that they will try and find their own answers to questions that should have, you know, been answered a long time ago.
PAT KENNY: Now how much waste ground, how much potential is there for digging in places that people would not be normally visiting for example in Portugal a lot of the time fields are covered in orange tree plants and they would be tended regularly by the farmers, so what sort of areas are there to be explored?
RUSSELL MYERS: I think specifically they’re looking at 3 areas and this is what we are hearing in today’s story, looking 3 areas which are planned for major excavation. Now these were 2 areas very close to the apartment at the Ocean Club where Madeleine and her parents had been staying in 2007. There’s also an area of beach that has been actually reworked since 2004. Also there is two main areas of grassland very nearby and a road that has been relayed in 2007 very very soon after Madeleine went missing. So these are the areas that they want to revisit and essentially the British police think that Portuguese Police authorities hadn’t paid enough attention to these areas and that is why they want to go back to them.
PAT KENNY: Now, it is 7 years since she disappeared, technology moves on. Is there any specific equipment that is new that will aid them in their investigations?
RUSSELL MYERS: Certainly, I think that, you know that Metropolitan Police will employ a world renowned forensic expert with this investigation. I think they will be using radar equipment. We heard that there is a certain magnetic imaging device that they will use within these excavation techniques that will allow them to ............... map the area and search for human bones if they are indeed buried underground.
PAT KENNY: Now, what about the McCann family, Gerry and Kate McCann, are they dismayed by this, because this would be, if you like, an indication that the Met believe that Madeleine is definitely dead or do they continue to hope?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well, indeed, I mean Kate and Gerry have never given up hope that Madeleine is still alive. They’ve had a tireless campaign now for 7 years, where they were seen at the weekend at their local church in Leicestershire and you know, privately they are saying that although they would always prepare themselves for the worst in these events they still haven’t given up hope of finding Madeleine alive.
PAT KENNY: Now, there is a suspect who’s been named and he was a suspect in a number of attacks on people in the area from about 2004 on.
RUSSELL MYERS: Yes, this is a local guy called Euclides Monteiro and he was a former worker at the Ocean Club apartments where the McCanns had been staying. Now Euclides was actually killed in a tractor accident in 2009 but over the weekend it’s emerged that he was actually interviewed in 2008, a year before his death, relating to a spate of sex attacks on young British girls connected with a string of burglaries in the area. Portuguese police have always said, you know, recently that he is the main suspect, not only in the string of 18 sex attacks and burglaries across the Algarve but indeed that they believe that he is one of the main suspects in the Madeleine McCann investigation. From what we’re hearing I don’t think the Met Police really are going along with that line of enquiry. It seems that he may be a suspect connected to certain string of burglaries in the area but it still has yet to be seen whether he is actually the main suspect in Madeleine....
PAT KENNY: His widow has been spoken to by various journalists and her contention is that he was questioned yes, but there was never any DNA evidence to link him with any of these crimes, so in death I suppose you could say which you like you cannot libel the dead but the finger has been pointed at him, probably wrongly according to her.
RUSSELL MYERS: Well, essentially we will never know whether he was a, no one’s had a confession and it’s really his widow’s word against the police and until the police actually come out publicly and state that he is the main suspect in their investigation I think a lot is left to hearsay and of course his widow defends his name when he’s not here.
PAT KENNY: When will the British investigating team start their digging?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well I should think we’re looking at the next 2 weeks. Obviously, it’s a lengthy process in Portugal. The Met Police had to put in several letters asking to actually come over here. The problem with the Portuguese investigation is that they really wanted to be allowed to get on with their own ........ but obviously the McCanns have been very frustrated about the lack of movement within the investigation so I think best case scenario we’re looking at 2 weeks for Met Police officers to be on the ground and start their excavation.
PAT KENNY: And the final question really relates to the Portuguese authorities in this regard. I mean they have the go ahead now to do it, but we’re coming into high season, holiday season, it’s probably the last thing that the Portuguese tourism authorities really want is British police scratching around looking for the body of a dead tourist child.
RUSSELL MYERS: Undoubtedly I think you’ll bring some unwanted attention back to the resort, it’s a very picturesque, pretty resort at high season and I think the British police wanted to avoid that and that’s why several months ago they’ve been asking to carry out these digs and because the Portuguese authorities have really dragged their heels over it that they’re probably the ones to blame as to how long it’s actually taken.
PAT KENNY: Alright, well, Russell Myers of the Daily Mirror, thank you very much for joining us from Praia da Luz.
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No it wouldn't. She is not there 8-)(--)
PAT KENNY: It is 7 years since 3 year old Madeleine McCann disappeared in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz. If she is alive she is a very different looking 10 year old but it looks as though the British investigating Police do not believe in such a likelihood because it is reported in today’s Mirror that they will be launching extensive digs around the resort in the hopes of recovering her body. The Mirror’s Russell Myers joins me now from Praia da Luz. Russell, good morning.
RUSSELL MYERS: Good morning Pat.
PAT KENNY: Now, The English police, the British police are they acting on any specific information?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well it seems that the investigation carried out by the Met police, Operation Grange which is going over a lot of the evidence that the Portuguese police had been examining since 2007. This isn’t actually new evidence that has been uncovered with the new investigation but it’s certainly a new revisiting of the old facts in case files from the Portuguese police.
PAT KENNY: Now, at the time there were searches I suppose in the believe that Madeleine may be still alive or if she had been killed that an opportunistic killer would dispose of her body somewhere adjacent to the scene of the abduction. Why were those searches not as thorough and as extensive as it would appear were needed at the time?
RUSSELL MYERS: I think this is been a problem with the Portuguese investigation in terms of how the British have seen how the Portuguese investigation was carried out in the first instance and I think to entirely satisfy themselves they want to go over old ground and to look at these excavation sites or potential sites that were earmarked in the first instance but potentially not carried out, so by British Police applying to Portuguese police to come out here and start excavating certain sites in and around Praia da Luz and the beach and the area where Madeleine went missing I think that they will try and find their own answers to questions that should have, you know, been answered a long time ago.
PAT KENNY: Now how much waste ground, how much potential is there for digging in places that people would not be normally visiting for example in Portugal a lot of the time fields are covered in orange tree plants and they would be tended regularly by the farmers, so what sort of areas are there to be explored?
RUSSELL MYERS: I think specifically they’re looking at 3 areas and this is what we are hearing in today’s story, looking 3 areas which are planned for major excavation. Now these were 2 areas very close to the apartment at the Ocean Club where Madeleine and her parents had been staying in 2007. There’s also an area of beach that has been actually reworked since 2004. Also there is two main areas of grassland very nearby and a road that has been relayed in 2007 very very soon after Madeleine went missing. So these are the areas that they want to revisit and essentially the British police think that Portuguese Police authorities hadn’t paid enough attention to these areas and that is why they want to go back to them.
PAT KENNY: Now, it is 7 years since she disappeared, technology moves on. Is there any specific equipment that is new that will aid them in their investigations?
RUSSELL MYERS: Certainly, I think that, you know that Metropolitan Police will employ a world renowned forensic expert with this investigation. I think they will be using radar equipment. We heard that there is a certain magnetic imaging device that they will use within these excavation techniques that will allow them to ............... map the area and search for human bones if they are indeed buried underground.
PAT KENNY: Now, what about the McCann family, Gerry and Kate McCann, are they dismayed by this, because this would be, if you like, an indication that the Met believe that Madeleine is definitely dead or do they continue to hope?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well, indeed, I mean Kate and Gerry have never given up hope that Madeleine is still alive. They’ve had a tireless campaign now for 7 years, where they were seen at the weekend at their local church in Leicestershire and you know, privately they are saying that although they would always prepare themselves for the worst in these events they still haven’t given up hope of finding Madeleine alive.
PAT KENNY: Now, there is a suspect who’s been named and he was a suspect in a number of attacks on people in the area from about 2004 on.
RUSSELL MYERS: Yes, this is a local guy called Euclides Monteiro and he was a former worker at the Ocean Club apartments where the McCanns had been staying. Now Euclides was actually killed in a tractor accident in 2009 but over the weekend it’s emerged that he was actually interviewed in 2008, a year before his death, relating to a spate of sex attacks on young British girls connected with a string of burglaries in the area. Portuguese police have always said, you know, recently that he is the main suspect, not only in the string of 18 sex attacks and burglaries across the Algarve but indeed that they believe that he is one of the main suspects in the Madeleine McCann investigation. From what we’re hearing I don’t think the Met Police really are going along with that line of enquiry. It seems that he may be a suspect connected to certain string of burglaries in the area but it still has yet to be seen whether he is actually the main suspect in Madeleine....
PAT KENNY: His widow has been spoken to by various journalists and her contention is that he was questioned yes, but there was never any DNA evidence to link him with any of these crimes, so in death I suppose you could say which you like you cannot libel the dead but the finger has been pointed at him, probably wrongly according to her.
RUSSELL MYERS: Well, essentially we will never know whether he was a, no one’s had a confession and it’s really his widow’s word against the police and until the police actually come out publicly and state that he is the main suspect in their investigation I think a lot is left to hearsay and of course his widow defends his name when he’s not here.
PAT KENNY: When will the British investigating team start their digging?
RUSSELL MYERS: Well I should think we’re looking at the next 2 weeks. Obviously, it’s a lengthy process in Portugal. The Met Police had to put in several letters asking to actually come over here. The problem with the Portuguese investigation is that they really wanted to be allowed to get on with their own ........ but obviously the McCanns have been very frustrated about the lack of movement within the investigation so I think best case scenario we’re looking at 2 weeks for Met Police officers to be on the ground and start their excavation.
PAT KENNY: And the final question really relates to the Portuguese authorities in this regard. I mean they have the go ahead now to do it, but we’re coming into high season, holiday season, it’s probably the last thing that the Portuguese tourism authorities really want is British police scratching around looking for the body of a dead tourist child.
RUSSELL MYERS: Undoubtedly I think you’ll bring some unwanted attention back to the resort, it’s a very picturesque, pretty resort at high season and I think the British police wanted to avoid that and that’s why several months ago they’ve been asking to carry out these digs and because the Portuguese authorities have really dragged their heels over it that they’re probably the ones to blame as to how long it’s actually taken.
PAT KENNY: Alright, well, Russell Myers of the Daily Mirror, thank you very much for joining us from Praia da Luz.
Pathfinder, I made a very polite suggestion, why the rude 8-)(--) ? ... based, I might add, only on the words of a red top newspaper reporter ... and he suggested five places NOT three.
Was there any need for such rudeness?
I take your point Alfred and think you probably are 8((()*/ right
But I still wish they would dig that damned drive up and stop all the speculation.
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Like with most things, we need to wait and see what develops.
From what is being reported, forensic scientists are involved and they are not likely to be using mechanical diggers. The Portuguese authorities may be be quite happy with this, particularly if SY are seen to be there in an advisory capacity, rather than openly directing operations.
If nothing is found, it will be another area of investigation eliminated and if remains of Madeleine are unearthed, then the reinvestigation will have achieved at least part of its objective.
Unless there is very reliable intelligence that Madeleine may be buried in a particular location my opinion remains that this is smoke and mirrors.
I have already made the comparison with the fruitless dig for Mr Hoffa’s remains.
To me this would be the concluding part of an investigation, not the first step, and I reiterate that the Portuguese authorities do not yet appear to have allowed NSY to carry out the preliminary interviews and investigations for elimination purposes which could be expected to lead us to this point.
“If nothing is found, it will be another area of investigation eliminated and if remains of Madeleine are unearthed, then the reinvestigation will have achieved at least part of its objective.” and that would make me highly suspicious of why now and not seven years ago
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Pathfinder, I made a very polite suggestion, why the rude 8-)(--) ? ... based, I might add, only on the words of a red top newspaper reporter ... and he suggested five places NOT three.
Was there any need for such rudeness?
I take your point Alfred and think you probably are 8((()*/ right
But I still wish they would dig that damned drive up and stop all the speculation.
Because you keep banging on about it. Grime and the dogs searched Murat's. Why don't you tell me why you think she is there and it should be searched. Because Birch says so?
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Because you keep banging on about it. Grime and the dogs searched Murat's. Why don't you tell me why you think she is there and it should be searched. Because Birch says so?
What is all the agression about?
I have made no mention of the dogs nor of Grime for weeks now, apart from pointing out that Amaral did not understand what their alerts meant and did not mean..
Are you still feeling sore that I proved that Grime was mistaken about CCat being in that cupboard. He made a mistake and to be fair to him he did not have the benefit of a video to show him where his mistake was, as we did..
To answer your question. I very very much doubt that Birch is right, but with all the speculation, I feel as others do, it would be better to get the minor job of searching under Murats drive and the speculation over, one way or another
I have just read that Birch is being sued.
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Unless prime suspect Smithman walked a further 100 metres into the sea where do you think they'll start searching?
You mean that wasn't explored before the original enquiry was shelved?
Why ever not?
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You mean that wasn't explored before the original enquiry was shelved?
Why ever not?
Maybe because the guy who followed on from Amaral didn't think it important.
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Maybe because the guy who followed on from Amaral didn't think it important.
yes they had already decided it was the parents and all other leads ignored
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Maybe because the guy who followed on from Amaral didn't think it important.
What about Amaral?
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What about Amaral?
He was removed before he could follow up the Smithman leads.
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The other point, of course, is that Scotland Yard appear to be re-discovering the wheel.
Mark Harrison already explored the options of burial and ruled them out:
Report Aim
'This report solely considers the smmh scenario that Madeline McCann
has been murdered and her body is concealed on the beach at PD Luz or
has been put into the sea from the shore.
The report considers the viability of burial on the beach and the likely
movement of a body if it entered the sea. It also considers the likely incident
of such a disposal choice and any local impact factors that make this a more
or less likely event with the aim to inform decisions on any searches.
Praia Da Luz Beach.
In simple terms the beach is in a natural inlet and bounded by cliffs.
The winds are generally from the west and create low energy waves of less
than 2m. This is significant regarding any body disposal scenario from the
shore as the wave energy is not sufficient to "take a body" out to sea. Instead
a body would most likely trave1 eastwards in a re circulating motion along the
shoreline until it was trapped by the rock outcrop to the east of the beach or
consumed by marine life. ti the entry point was the rock outcrop itself to the
east of the beach then the body would most likely continue in a re circulating
motion along the shoreline until it again encountered a bamer to its passage,
the most eastward of this would be 5km away at Ponta Da Piedade near
Lagos.
Sub Surface Burial on P D Luz Beach
For Body Disposal Purposes The Beach Can Be Separated And
Discussed Into 6 Areas.
Figure 2.The boulders in the rock falls are too large
to man handle. Vegetative growth suggests rock
falls have been in situ for some time. The low energy
wave action would not move any of the boulders. It
is possible a small child could be secreted amongst
the rocks in natural voids.
Figure 3.The cliff edge at the base of the beach is at
an angle that inhibits soil removal. The shale re fills
any hole dug and is unsuitable to achieve a burial.
Figure4.At the base of the cliff are wave cuts where
the bedrock has been eroded by wave action. Here
sand can be easily dug but after a few centimetres
the digger reaches the bed rock, preventing a
successful burial.
Figure 5.The beach cusps or berms are mounds of
sand made by wind action. These cusps form at the
limit of the tides reach and would only be recovered
in storm conditions. Digging on the cusps is easy but to achieve as
more than a few centimetres depth is very difficult to
the fine sand granules refill the hole
Figure 6.The dark sand in this image shows the
intertidal area. Here digging and burial could
possibly be achieved although it would be through a
mixture of grave1 and water. However any burial
would be quickly exposed by wave action and
ultimately taken into the sea.
I guess Scotland Yard just don't have much faith in the work of Mark Harrison ...
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I guess Scotland Yard just don't have much faith in the work of Mark Harrison ...
It is more important for this case that the case is actually solved.
Ex personalities of this case such as Harrison or Amaral or whoever are unimportant. They haven't solved the case.
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Despite spending millions of pounds "leaving no stone unturned" apparently the McCanns did just that.
The inquiry has been all over the world now and guess where it's come back to?
PDL...specifically, the BEACH on PDL, where suspicion has long been that Gerry temporarily buried Madeleine while the search was made.
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Despite spending millions of pounds "leaving no stone unturned" apparently the McCanns did just that.
The inquiry has been all over the world now and guess where it's come back to?
PDL...specifically, the BEACH on PDL, where suspicion has long been that Gerry temporarily buried Madeleine while the search was made.
How do you think he achieved that?
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There has been speculation about the Murats driveway, so I think they will start there....
But his entire garden was scanned in 2007 with ground-penetrating radar by a combined UK police and PJ team and the entire property came up completely clean.
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For quite a while now we have been led to believe that the 'letters of request' from Scotland Yard pertained to burglars and such ... the impression being given that questioning of 'suspects' and their potential arrests were what lay behind them
Are we now being told that what Scotland Yard were actually requesting, through those letters, was permission to dig up the resort looking for Madeleine's body
Is that what has really been happening ?
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For quite a while now we have been led to believe that the 'letters of request' from Scotland Yard pertained to burglars and such ... the impression being given that questioning of 'suspects' and their potential arrests were what lay behind them
Are we now being told that what Scotland Yard were actually requesting, through those letters, was permission to dig up the resort looking for Madeleine's body
Is that what has really been happening ?
Who knows?
There is a source claiming one thing & a source claiming another.
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... She went straight up to Porto, almost without doubt ...
Why Porto?
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But his entire garden was scanned in 2007 with ground-penetrating radar by a combined UK police and PJ team and the entire property came up completely clean.
Maybe a body wasn't there at that time. Maybe somebody thought that the cadaver dogs evidence would be enough to gain a conviction without a body. Maybe somebody thought that no-one would ever go back to a property which had been so thoroughly searched. Just a theory!
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I don't think Madeleine ended up in PDL that night. If she did Portuguese search dogs would had found her.
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"Dogs will look for body of...[/b]"
In todays Correio Da Manha 6 May 2007
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The most difficult part of the 'death in the apartment' theory, for me, has always been the almost inconceivable image of two clearly loving parents 'disposing ' of the body of their cherished infant
And yet it appears Scotland Yard have reason to think Madeleine's body was buried close to the apartment where she was last seen alive
That just doesn't fit in with an 'abduction' does it ?
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... and the cause of death
The most difficult part of the 'death in the apartment' theory, for me, has always been the almost inconceivable image of two clearly loving parents 'disposing ' of the body of their cherished infant
And yet it appears Scotland Yard have reason to think Madeleine's body was buried close to the apartment where she was last seen alive
That just doesn't fit in with an 'abduction' does it ?
People who are capable of dumping their dead child's body and then carrying on as if nothing untoward had happened wouldn't be loving parents would they. They would be a couple of full blown psychopaths - and anyone who believes that is living in cloud cuckoo land.
SY have said Madeleine may have died in the apartment. Anyone who thinks SY were hinting that it could be at the hands of her parents are also similarly living in cloud cuckoo land. IMO.
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... and the cause of death
The most difficult part of the 'death in the apartment' theory, for me, has always been the almost inconceivable image of two clearly loving parents 'disposing ' of the body of their cherished infant
And yet it appears Scotland Yard have reason to think Madeleine's body was buried close to the apartment where she was last seen alive
That just doesn't fit in with an 'abduction' does it ?
And it is exactly this sentiment that has allowed this farce to continue for 7 years.
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... and the cause of death
The most difficult part of the 'death in the apartment' theory, for me, has always been the almost inconceivable image of two clearly loving parents 'disposing ' of the body of their cherished infant
And yet it appears Scotland Yard have reason to think Madeleine's body was buried close to the apartment where she was last seen alive
That just doesn't fit in with an 'abduction' does it ?
I was thinking this too. I guess it depends how close to the apartment the digging is going on? The more distance, the more time for it to have been a third party?
From the latest interviews, I'd be prepared to bet that the Mccanns had fore warning that the digs were going on, which does lend credence to their claims that they're being updated.
There's a quote from an unnamed Portuguese source of the latest news thread that says something along the lines of if they're digging, they're looking for a body, how many holes would you have to dig to decide that a body isn't there?
Also, how did they decide where to dig? It can't be just random. They must have someone info, surely?
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Not groundless. It would appear the twins were given something which kept them asleep during all the commotion after Kate's alert so it's not a great stretch to imagine Madeleine was too.
As to the digging in PDL, the Portuguese media is reporting that SY's request has been granted and digging will indeed take place.
The PT media I read last night said that no permission has been given for digging! And there is no evidence whatsoever to support your speculation that the twins and / or Madeleleine were sedated either be an abductor or her parents. Kate's own worries that this may have happened does not count as evidence, and you'd have to ask yourself why, if she knew her child had just died of an overdose and was keen to hide this fact, she would draw attention to the idea that the twins may also have been drugged.
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Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send me a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
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Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send me a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
I thought this technology had been well and truly rubbished on this forum. It is interesting that the experts remain insistent on its use. I wonder why?
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Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send me a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
I'm sure you'll be inundated with questions from davel, ferryman, gilet et al. I believe they've been waiting for years to tell Grime how unreliable both him and his dogs are.
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I'm sure you'll be inundated with questions from davel, ferryman, gilet et al. I believe they've been waiting for years to tell Grime how unreliable both him and his dogs are.
You obviously haven't read any of my posts..I have never criticised the dogs or grime...its the interpretation of the dogs findings by some on this forum I criticise
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You obviously haven't read any of my posts..I have never criticised the dogs or grime...its the interpretation of the dogs findings by some on this forum I criticise
Is that the wind in my hair or simply the air being whipped up by davel back peddling furiously ? @)(++(*
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I thought this technology had been well and truly rubbished on this forum. It is interesting that the experts remain insistent on its use. I wonder why?
Because the dogs are an invaluable tool in finding evidence...as simple as that
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Is that the wind in my hair or simply the air being whipped up by davel back peddling furiously ? @)(++(*
You are confirming your ignorance and poor memory...posts are all still there....nothing wrong with grime and the dogs...it just that many refuse to accept what grime says...I don't
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It sure will be interesting to see what the dogs come up with this time.
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It sure will be interesting to see what the dogs come up with this time.
if there's a body then an evrd dog will find it...that's their job
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Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send me a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
It would be interesting to see what questions posters want to ask... I don't have any questions as I feel grime has explained everything clearly in the files
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And it is exactly this sentiment that has allowed this farce to continue for 7 years.
I see nothing farcical about searching for a missing child.
I find it extraordinary that there seems to be a complete lack of empathy for parents and family at this time and in this situation in some quarters.
Should Madeleines body be uncovered and should it be determined that she was buried seven years ago, it really does lead back to the initial investigation and how that was handled.
My thoughts are with Madeleine's parents, particularly as I think NSY must be acting on intelligence and perhaps not just for elimination purposes.
Whatever their information I think it must be compelling to convince the Portuguese authorities to allow this line of inquiry to proceed.
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I'm assuming that the letters SY sent to the portuguese police were for permission to dig at PDL then,and not for permission to question various suspects after all? Leaving aside everything that has been in the press,what have SY themselves actually told the public? Well,they have effectively eliminated Tannerman,which changed the timeline somewhat. They have told us that it is important that they identify Smithman. They have told us that Madeleine may not have necessarily left 5a alive. Have I missed anything out?
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I'm assuming that the letters SY sent to the portuguese police were for permission to dig at PDL then,and not for permission to question various suspects after all? Leaving aside everything that has been in the press,what have SY themselves actually told the public? Well,they have effectively eliminated Tannerman,which changed the timeline somewhat. They have told us that it is important that they identify Smithman. They have told us that Madeleine may not have necessarily left 5a alive. Have I missed anything out?
The McCanns are neither persons of interest or suspects.
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I'm assuming that the letters SY sent to the portuguese police were for permission to dig at PDL then,and not for permission to question various suspects after all? Leaving aside everything that has been in the press,what have SY themselves actually told the public? Well,they have effectively eliminated Tannerman,which changed the timeline somewhat. They have told us that it is important that they identify Smithman. They have told us that Madeleine may not have necessarily left 5a alive. Have I missed anything out?
Yes...they have told us McCannns are not suspects
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0f course they did,I had forgotten that...thank you!
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0f course they did,I had forgotten that...thank you!
How could you - davel spends the best part of his life telling us. All that wasted effort @)(++(*
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and of course policemen always tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
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How could you - davel spends the best part of his life telling us. All that wasted effort @)(++(*
You see I am obviously not saying it enough
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Madeleine McCann: Police confirm Portugal 'activity'
Police investigating Madeleine McCann's disappearance say "activity" is expected to begin in Portugal soon.
The disclosure comes amid reports Portuguese authorities have given permission for sites in Praia da Luz, where the toddler went missing, to be searched.
Met Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said he would be unable to provide details of the activity.
But he said he believed it would occur "in the coming weeks".
A letter was sent to media editors amid speculation about excavation work. Mr Rowley asked them to "think carefully" about information they published.
Madeleine was three when she went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Algarve, in May 2007.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
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itv news: searches at 1. wasteland 2. roadworks 3. beach
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Meanwhile, I wonder what the odds are that dogs will be used in the examinations of the three sites in Portugal ?
A logical procedure of course.
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Meanwhile, I wonder what the odds are that dogs will be used in the examinations of the three sites in Portugal ?
A logical procedure of course.
Oh yes, I think the dogs would be a prerequisite to doing any actual digging.
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Meanwhile, I wonder what the odds are that dogs will be used in the examinations of the three sites in Portugal ?
A logical procedure of course.
lets wish the dogs the best of luck and hope they find something this time
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lets wish the dogs the best of luck and hope they find something this time
They did last time davel, but the forensics as we know where inconclusive.
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They did last time davel, but the forensics as we know where inconclusive.
what did they find
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what did they find
Wasn't it traces of sea bass and pork scratchings ?
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Wasn't it traces of sea bass and pork scratchings ?
It was a big nothing. Similar to a coconut shell they found on the other side.
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Wasn't it traces of sea bass and pork scratchings ?
yes I think it was
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I'm assuming that the letters SY sent to the portuguese police were for permission to dig at PDL then,and not for permission to question various suspects after all? Leaving aside everything that has been in the press,what have SY themselves actually told the public? Well,they have effectively eliminated Tannerman,which changed the timeline somewhat. They have told us that it is important that they identify Smithman. They have told us that Madeleine may not have necessarily left 5a alive. Have I missed anything out?
Yes, they are now convinced that there is a real possibility that Madeleine died and was buried in a grave close to Ocean Club Garden complex 7 years ago. This in itself rules out Smithman.
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Meanwhile, I wonder what the odds are that dogs will be used in the examinations of the three sites in Portugal ?
A logical procedure of course.
Dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used.
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Yes, they are now convinced that there is a real possibility that Madeleine died and was buried in a grave close to Ocean Club Garden complex 7 years ago. This in itself rules out Smithman.
Doesn't that kind of rule stranger abduction out?
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Doesn't that kind of rule stranger abduction out?
It does a bit. Why take the risk of abducting a child only to kill/bury her? There is always the Williams-Thomas theory that she woke, wandered but instead of being abducted as he suggested, she was knocked down and killed and buried soon after in the nearby roadworks. Remember that there were numerous sites around the village where a youngster could be hidden permanently and nobody would bat an eye.
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Doesn't that kind of rule stranger abduction out?
depends on the cause of death
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depends on the cause of death
Could be impossible to determine after 7 years Dave.
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Could be impossible to determine after 7 years Dave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_anthropology
To quote davel, depends on the cause of death.
For instance, your example of a car crash would probably leave sufficient trauma to show up on bones. If the hyoid is broken it would indicate strangulation.
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Dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used.
That would be logical.
The irony being of course, if any dogs used, do find her remains.
and before I get my head bitten off, as will invariably happen with some people, I never wished that Madeleine was dead.
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Could be impossible to determine after 7 years Dave.
That would depend on how well preserved remains might be. Physical injury would certainly be detectable.
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8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
I just woke up to this INCREDIBLE news...
The area first identified by - guess who - Amaral and his team.
All over Europe, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and back again to the field adjacent to where [removed name] was seen carrying Madeleine.
[ ... moderated out personal comment ...]
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this just has to be more than just a 'let's see' move - otherwise why choose the height of the holiday season to dig up a popular resort, after 7 years
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That would be logical.
The irony being of course, if any dogs used, do find her remains.
and before I get my head bitten off, as will invariably happen with some people, I never wished that Madeleine was dead.
it wouldn't be ironical that is the correct use of an EVRD dog...as it is highly unlikely but not impossible that Maddie is alive the second best result would be to find out what happened to her and give her family closure
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I am just having the ludicrous thought of a fleet of CAT 350s digging up PdL on spec.
Good night all
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[ ... moderated ...]
How about acknowledging the fact that SY have pretty much duplicated the entire original investigation, and ended up BACK IN PDL just like Amaral's team did?
How about acknowledging that the piece of vacant land about to be dug is adjacent to where [ name removed ] was seen carrying Madeleine?
I know, it must sting. You got it wrong.
A lot of people did.
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If Madeleine was in that area or near by the Portuguese search dogs the day after would have found her.
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seeing as thats where maddie disappeared from only an idiot would be surprised
Well the Idiots had her disappeared to Mexico, New Zealand, Belgium, Germany....
Oh look they've come right back to the area AMARAL identified.
Only an IDIOT would think that a BURGLAR stole a dead child then buried her in the field next door.
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How embarrassing is it going to be for the Portuguese authorities if SY find something significant pertaining to this case in their own back yard so to speak?
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Well the Idiots had her disappeared to Mexico, New Zealand, Belgium, Germany....
Oh look they've come right back to the area AMARAL identified.
Only an IDIOT would think that a BURGLAR stole a dead child then buried her in the field next door.
It was Dave Edgar...a uk detective who said she would be buried in PDL...but before you wet yourself...nothing has been found yet
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If Madeleine was in that area or near by the Portuguese search dogs the day after would have found her.
Who says they didn't?
Madeleine was moved more than once.
Part of the digging in PDL will involve ground penetrating radar, looking for DISTURBANCE of the soil.
Not necessarily a body, but an area Madeleine sized and shaped where she was temporarily hidden.
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How embarrassing is it going to be for the Portuguese authorities if SY find something significant pertaining to this case in their own back yard so to speak?
Not embarrassing at all, the Portugese Public has already been told who hid Madeleine.
NOTHING SY has announced is new.
Amaral had been there, done that.
[ Edited ]
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I can't see 'em findin' sod all on that bit o' wasteland myself.
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Not embarrassing at all, the Portugese Public has already been told that the McCanns hid Madeleine.
NOTHING SY has announced is new.
Amaral had been there, done that.
Well if the Portuguese all knew where Madeleie was all along then why did they not bother recovering her remains?
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How embarrassing is it going to be for the Portuguese authorities if SY find something significant pertaining to this case in their own back yard so to speak?
My understanding is that the Portuguese will be in charge of the aforementioned fleet of CAT 350s and the MPS will look on from the "safe" side of the hazard tapes.
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How on earth would I know?
You seem to know an awful lot already! Perhaps you don't want to think through carefully what you have written because then you would realise how very improbable it is.
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You seem to know an awful lot already! Perhaps you don't want to think through carefully what you have written because then you would realise how very improbable it is.
What's your theory on the digs then?
A burglar with a shovel performing an impromptu burial? 8-)(--)
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Apart from dozens of cops and civilians looking for a missing child of course.
apart from all the worlds press following them around
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What's your theory on the digs then?
A burglar with a shovel? 8-)(--)
The dig hasn't started yet, They may not find anything.
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What's your theory on the digs then?
A burglar with a shovel? 8-)(--)
I think it's very likely (I'm sorry to say) that Madeleine was taken by a stranger, abused, murdered and disposed of - all within the PdL area and by a local who would more likely have access to a shovel than would Gerry McCann.
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Apart from dozens of cops and civilians looking for a missing child of course.
They hid her in plain sight.
Searchers would LOOK at that vacant field but who would actually examine it when clearly it was empty?
They were looking for a little girl not disturbed soil.
And do tell - if I (and the PJ) are so far off the mark, WHY is SY searching there?
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The dig hasn't started yet, They may not find anything.
I have pointed this out to the cat but I don't think it noticed
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I cannot help but to wonder what state of minds are of the common posters here..
Sad for the humanity really.
It's the same mindset police detectives have.
Follow the evidence, no matter how UNLIKELY you think it all is.
Are the Police "sad for humanity" too?
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They hid her in plain sight.
Searchers would LOOK at that vacant field but who would actually examine it when clearly it was empty?
They were looking for a little girl not disturbed soil.
And do tell - if I (and the PJ) are so far off the mark, WHY is SY searching there?
Oh c'mon do you know anything about this search and how it was performed?
There were dogs, helicopters searching for the body and for the disturbed ground too..
What do you think, that the Portuguese don't have these and they are some kind of a technology morons?
Portugal is actually responsible for almost the highest level of searches and rescues in the world and they have the most modern technology.. they also make it themselves!!!
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I think in all seriousness ...this is an extremely disturbed person
It is impossible she is in that field. I remember that back in 2007 PJ has employed the search helicopters and they were equipped with the sensors for recent excavations.
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The dig hasn't started yet, They may not find anything.
Minor detail Cariad. Why let reality stand in the way?
The ten o'clock beeb news were suggesting it may another four weeks before we have a stake in the ground.
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It is impossible she is in that field. I remember that back in 2007 PJ has employed the search helicopters and they were equipped with the sensors for recent excavations.
Sorry?
The same PJ you accuse of having Agatha Christie methodology?
8-)(--)
Unbelievable.
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Minor detail Cariad. Why let reality stand in the way?
The ten o'clock beeb news were suggesting it may another four weeks before we have a stake in the ground.
I don't think I can cope with all this speculation for a month.....
Everyone has whipped themselves up in to a frenzy all over the web. In comparison, we seemed like a haven of tranquillity here.
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I don't think I can cope with all this speculation for a month.....
Everyone has whipped themselves up in to a frenzy all over the web. In comparison, we seemed like a haven of tranquillity here.
things happen very slowly in Portugal
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I don't think I can cope with all this speculation for a month.....
Everyone has whipped themselves up in to a frenzy all over the web. In comparison, we seemed like a haven of tranquillity here.
please share links, I need to go to my tribe?
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please share links, I need to go to my tribe?
Have a look on twitter and Facebook. There seems to be a rather unsightly glee about a tiny little body bag of bones possibly being dug up in Portugal.
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Have a look on twitter and Facebook. There seems to be a rather unsightly glee about a tiny little body bag of bones possibly being dug up in Portugal.
It's sad isn't it
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I don't think I can cope with all this speculation for a month.....
Everyone has whipped themselves up in to a frenzy all over the web. In comparison, we seemed like a haven of tranquillity here.
It should be entertaining if nothing else! All the excuses about making PdL look like a lump of Gruyere cheese on spec. to eliminate things etc etc . Rather than it being more likely they have a good bit of intel on where to set up the back hoe. >@@(*&)
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Have a look on twitter and Facebook. There seems to be a rather unsightly glee about a tiny little body bag of bones possibly being dug up in Portugal.
Hmm, and I got a distinct whiff of glee about it on this thread too, but it seems to have passed now thankfully.
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It should be entertaining if nothing else!
What should be entertaining?
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It should be entertaining if nothing else! All the excuses about making PdL look like a lump of Gruyere cheese on spec. to eliminate things etc etc . Rather than it being more likely they have a good bit of intel on where to set up the back hoe. >@@(*&)
You mean you don't think they're just planning to dig up 3 randomly selected sites to eliminate scenarios?
Why did they say that? No one can believe that can they? I'm not sure why this news has been announced at all really, especially if there will be a months wait for the digging to begin and the pj have asked for media silence?
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You mean you don't think they're just planning to dig up 3 randomly selected sites to eliminate scenarios?
Why did they say that? No one can believe that can they? I'm not sure why this news has been announced at all really, especially if there will be a months wait for the digging to begin and the pj have asked for media silence?
That is a good point ain't it.
Can't seem to get me 'ead round it.
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You mean you don't think they're just planning to dig up 3 randomly selected sites to eliminate scenarios?
Why did they say that? No one can believe that can they? I'm not sure why this news has been announced at all really, especially if there will be a months wait for the digging to begin and the pj have asked for media silence?
It's obvious they are winding the public pressure up on SOMEBODY, gee I wonder who.....
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Joana Morais' view is that as far as the PJ are concerned the McCanns are in the clear. But what does she know, eh?
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Mirror 06/05/2014
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-dig-just-3504730
"another area of interest is a cobbled road outside the town’s 16th century Catholic church"
Six and a half years ago there was a press report that police were going to dig this filled roadwork location, but seems it never happened.
The Sun 12/09/2007
"target for the police excavations is a new pedestrianised area outside the Church of Our Lady of Light ... roadworks trench ... since been filled in"
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Mirror 06/05/2014
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-dig-just-3504730
"another area of interest is a cobbled road outside the town’s 16th century Catholic church"
Six and a half years ago there was a press report that police were going to dig this filled roadwork location, but seems it never happened.
The Sun 12/09/2007
"target for the police excavations is a new pedestrianised area outside the Church of Our Lady of Light ... roadworks trench ... since been filled in"
Chilling.
And good news for Amaral who has been publicly ridiculed for so long.
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... And good news for Amaral who has been publicly ridiculed for so long.
and BTW that 2007 article I just quoted (and of course it might be wrong) suggested that the supposed 2007 proposal to dig street near church was to find evidence that something had been there temporarily, not to find it still there, (again perhaps echoed now six and half years later in the current press reports? )
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Mirror 06/05/2014
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-dig-just-3504730
"another area of interest is a cobbled road outside the town’s 16th century Catholic church"
Six and a half years ago there was a press report that police were going to dig this filled roadwork location, but seems it never happened.
The Sun 12/09/2007
"target for the police excavations is a new pedestrianised area outside the Church of Our Lady of Light ... roadworks trench ... since been filled in"
As you know I have a thread about the church and the roadworks dug up at the time. I also think she may have been hidden temporarily towards the wasteland. I wonder if they've been reading this forum 8(0(* They've also got the 10:03 sighting time now (if they saw it on their page) after Smelly fat man was being suspected but there seems to be a game going on I.e. showing one hand whilst revealing another.
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Nobody in here realised that there is no reliable source for this story?
Plus Correiro Da Manha reporting that PJ still hasn't made their mind about the digs.
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From the BBC
Madeleine McCann: Police confirm Portugal 'activity'
Police investigating Madeleine McCann's disappearance say "activity" is expected to begin in Portugal soon.
The disclosure comes amid reports Portuguese authorities have given permission for sites in Praia da Luz, where the toddler went missing, to be searched.
Met Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said he would be unable to provide details of the activity.
But he said he believed it would occur "in the coming weeks".
Richard Bilton
BBC News
Seven years since Madeleine McCann disappeared, the spotlight once again falls on the little town Praia da Luz and the search for a lost girl. But the back story is the relationship between two countries, and two police forces.
On Tuesday, a Portuguese prosecutor confirmed that a series of requests from British police for investigative work in Portugal have been approved. And later - in an open letter - the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said activity is to begin soon.
But there was more. Mr Rowley urged the media to avoid speculation; to think of the impact it might have on the investigation.
That is because the Portuguese police and not the British will carry out any work in Praia da Luz. British officers will simply be observers. Without the co-operation of the Portuguese Policia Judiciaria, the British efforts will not get far.
The relationship between the forces has been difficult at times. Officers in both countries have told me of their frustrations. Both have active and separate investigations. Leaks and speculation could fatally undermine their co-operation.
It seems an upsurge in police activity is about to start. If it is to be successful, this sometimes uneasy relationship will need to survive.
No media updates
A letter was sent to media editors amid speculation about excavation work. Mr Rowley asked them to "think carefully" about information they published.
Madeleine was three when she went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Algarve, in May 2007.
A request to search a number of sites was among a series of requests made to police in Portugal by British detectives working on the case, according to reports.
Mr Rowley said he had discussed the case with his opposite number in Portugal and highlighted the "high levels of interest" the activity would generate in the British media.
He said Portuguese police did not provide the media with updates on ongoing investigations.
Activity would cease if police in Britain gave out information or news reporters caused any disruption to their work in Portugal, he added.
Mr Rowley said the Portuguese authorities had been "more bureaucratic and slower" at processing requests than his team had wished.
But he asked the media to respect their requests as they carried out the work.
"We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case," he said.
Seventh anniversary
It comes after the seventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance was marked on Saturday.
Gerry McCann, Madeleine's father, expressed his family's gratitude that the Metropolitan Police team was now moving on to a "very active" phase in its investigation.
Gerry and Kate McCann
Gerry and Kate McCann marked the seventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance on Saturday
He said at the weekend: "They are chipping away and obviously there is new evidence so we are going to continue to hope that we will get a happy outcome."
Kate McCann also disclosed last week that she returns to the Portuguese resort where her daughter disappeared to "walk those streets" and "look for answers" once or twice each year.
She also backed a revamped alert system triggered when missing children are kidnapped or their lives are at risk - known as Child Rescue Alerts.
Scotland Yard launched a fresh investigation - codenamed Operation Grange - into Madeleine's disappearance last July, two years into a review of the case, and made renewed appeals for information.
In March, British police said they were seeking an intruder who sexually abused five girls in Portugal between 2004 and 2006.
Detectives say the attacks happened in holiday villas occupied by UK families in the Algarve.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
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Nobody in here realised that there is no reliable source for this story?
Plus Correiro Da Manha reporting that PJ still hasn't made their mind about the digs.
However TVI have reported that: (translated)
"the Attorney General's Office [PGR] has agreed to the request from the British police for searches and excavations to be done in Praia da Luz ... the searches, which already foresee the possibility of excavations, have been already authorized by the prosecutor"
http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/sociedade/maddie-escavacoes-buscas-algarve-desaparecida-madeleine-mmcann/1553948-4071.html
ETA also Correio Da Manha have reported: (translated)
"Ministério Público authorizes searches to find the body of English child in Praia da Luz"
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/caes-vao-procurar-corpo-de-maddie
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Nobody in here realised that there is no reliable source for this story?
Plus Correiro Da Manha reporting that PJ still hasn't made their mind about the digs.
I don't think the PJ will have any say in whether or not the dig goes ahead - it is not their decision.
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I would suggest that if the UK media start 'messing' with this story, any residual cooperation the Portuguese are offering will disappear into the ether.
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I would suggest that if the UK media start 'messing' with this story, any residual cooperation the Portuguese are offering will disappear into the ether.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
It looks like the Portuguese are already giving the MPS the hard line on that score. They seem to be saying keep your mouths shut keep your press on a tight leash or go home.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
It looks like the Portuguese are already giving the MPS the hard line on that score. They seem to be saying keep your mouths shut keep your press on a tight leash or go home.
Thanks for that Cornelius.
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Just on Sky News.
SY have been briefing the press and Portuguese not happy, which will delay proceedings.
Likewise 3 'suspects' SY wanted to interview and have their accommodation searched has been refused by Portugal.
Hardly surprising as the 3 people were suspected of burglaries there and which had no direct connection to this case.
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British police investigating Madeleine McCann's disappearance have reportedly been refused permission to search the homes of three burglary suspects.
According to local media in Praia da Luz, where the three-year-old went missing in 2007, Portuguese authorities declined requests from Metropolitan Police.
It comes after it was reported that Portugese authorities had approved plans for officers from Scotland Yard to dig for evidence in the resort.
More follows...
http://news.sky.com/story/1256800/madeleine-mccann-uk-police-searches-refused
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I would tend to agree, except that IF fraud is involved, then it will have been a deliberate act, perpetrated over many years, not a spur of the moment thing.
Which one of our esteemed posters referred to it as riding a tiger?
How do you get off? After all the claims of no stone unturned and searching, how do you say, nah, we've done enough now?
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Which one of our esteemed posters referred to it as riding a tiger?
How do you get off? After all the claims of no stone unturned and searching, how do you say, nah, we've done enough now?
Is that a rhetorical question Cariad? or are you expecting someone to say "Redblossom".
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Is that a rhetorical question Cariad? or are you expecting someone to say "Redblossom".
I honestly couldn't remember, but my best guess would've been Redblossem. I miss her 8(8-))
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I honestly couldn't remember, but my best guess would've been Redblossem. I miss her 8(8-))
Or it might've been CPN...? I miss her too...
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Or it might've been CPN...? I miss her too...
Indeed.
Both of them. 8((()*/
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Indeed.
Both of them. 8((()*/
We've lost too many good posters recently...
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We've lost too many good posters recently...
Hasn't most of the information re the dig come from the portuguese papers via portuguese leaks
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Hasn't most of the information re the dig come from the portuguese papers via portuguese leaks
I don't know. Has it?
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Hasn't most of the information re the dig come from the portuguese papers via portuguese leaks
And where do you get that little gem from?
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From the church to Kate's rock is where I would check as shown here - search area 3: Search area 2 is where the building site I talked about was at the time. They are investigating the right places IMO.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c7/rupertlichfield/article-2621343-1DA0F4CB00000578-491_634x470_zps3745277f.jpg)
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im yet to see or hear that they are digging for a body ?.... the 10.oclock news last night say they not looking for a body ?
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im yet to see or hear that they are digging for a body ?.... the 10.oclock news last night say they not looking for a body ?
Of course they are looking for her body otherwise why conduct searches at these places. I don't think they expect to find her body but they will be looking for clues to see if she was concealed there on May 3rd, 2007. They have tracked the prime suspect to these search areas like I did (see my PDL Church thread). This undoubtedly confirms they think Smithman did it.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
It looks like the Portuguese are already giving the MPS the hard line on that score. They seem to be saying keep your mouths shut keep your press on a tight leash or go home.
Freedom of the press should perhaps be considered.
Like it or not Britain is not a police state so the press cannot be 'controlled' by the police and told what to say.
Post Leveson etc: it remains to be seen how that will pan out.
Perhaps the Portuguese authorities should look in before they look out and do something about 'sources close to the PJ' leaking to the Portuguese press who have been responsible for the dramatic headlines which have plagued Madeleine's case from its inception.
One calls to mind the lurid headlines about 100% DNA etc:
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Of course they are looking for her body otherwise why conduct searches at these places. I don't think they expect to find her body but they will be looking for clues to see if she was concealed there on May 3rd, 2007. They have tracked the prime suspect to these search areas like I did (see my PDL Church thread).
well im only going on what I heard on the news ...because the MET are not commenting at present ...
could you provide a link to the said thread ..please ...
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Of course they are looking for her body otherwise why conduct searches at these places. I don't think they expect to find her body but they will be looking for clues to see if she was concealed there on May 3rd, 2007. They have tracked the prime suspect to these search areas like I did (see my PDL Church thread).
Well the traditional reason for hiring a fleet of backhoes would be to cut new footings for a building or lay drains.
But then that would seem to be improbable. It seems equally improbable they will be digging holes all over the oche to eliminate a pot bellied smelly bin man or dead tractor driver from their enquiries
In the context of determining what happened to Madeleine McCann a backhoe would only be useful if one were looking for buried remains, unpleasant though that may be.
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Of course they are looking for her body otherwise why conduct searches at these places. I don't think they expect to find her body but they will be looking for clues to see if she was concealed there on May 3rd, 2007. They have tracked the prime suspect to these search areas like I did (see my PDL Church thread). This undoubtedly confirms they think Smithman did it.
The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “As always, we simply will not comment on operational details of Operation Grange. That is a matter for the Met Police.
“Kate and Gerry are being kept fully informed throughout.”
A source close to the couple said: “They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip-off.
“They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches.
“Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for her body. They are doing searches to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases.”
Last night Scotland Yard confirmed that the case was “moving towards increased action in Portugal.”
It said “activity will occur in forthcoming weeks”.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474418/Madeleine-McCann-Police-to-use-radar-in-hunt-for-suspect-sites-at-the-holiday-resort?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+%28Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed%29
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Freedom of the press should perhaps be considered.
Like it or not Britain is not a police state so the press cannot be 'controlled' by the police and told what to say.
Post Leveson etc: it remains to be seen how that will pan out.
Perhaps the Portuguese authorities should look in before they look out and do something about 'sources close to the PJ' leaking to the Portuguese press who have been responsible for the dramatic headlines which have plagued Madeleine's case from its inception.
One calls to mind the lurid headlines about 100% DNA etc:
I was just pointing out what A/C Mark Rowley said according to the beeb.
I don't give a toss about the rest.
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well im only going on what I heard on the news ...because the MET are not commenting at present ...
could you provide a link to the said thread ..please ...
It's on this forum main page - Scroll down to "Praia Da Luz Church" Thread.
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The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “As always, we simply will not comment on operational details of Operation Grange. That is a matter for the Met Police.
“Kate and Gerry are being kept fully informed throughout.”
A source close to the couple said: “They don’t believe police are acting on any new tip-off.
“They just need to carry out their own digs, looking for any possible clues that Portuguese authorities may have missed on their previous searches.
“Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for her body. They are doing searches to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases.”
Last night Scotland Yard confirmed that the case was “moving towards increased action in Portugal.”
It said “activity will occur in forthcoming weeks”.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474418/Madeleine-McCann-Police-to-use-radar-in-hunt-for-suspect-sites-at-the-holiday-resort?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+%28Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed%29
Thank you for posting this 8((()*/
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The usual place one suspects. The Daily Xenophobe of which Mr Davel appears to be Emeritus Editor.
No you are wrong again...something you are making a habit of...source is the Portuguese CDM newspaper,
Lisbon (AFP) - Portuguese authorities have accepted a request from British police to search land close to the hotel where three-year-old Madeleine McCann disappeared in 2007, according to press reports on Tuesday.
"The public ministry of Portimao has authorised English police to search land close to the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz," the Correio da Manha newspaper reported, citing a source close the investigation.
The announcement comes almost seven years to the day after the young British girl's disappearance.
According to reports in both the Portuguese and British media, police officers want to use radar equipment to search for clues concerning Madeleine's disappearance.
Portuguese authorities refused to comment on the reports. Scotland Yard also made no comment
I think an apology is in order
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the PJ have refuused to allow the supects digs.....
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im yet to see or hear that they are digging for a body ?.... the 10.oclock news last night say they not looking for a body ?
@)(++(*
Maybe they are searching for that secret underground bunker she has been held captive in for the past 7 years.
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Seems like we might finally be getting somewhere, thanks to the Met. Encouraging signs of progress.
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Kate had dream of where to dig
POLICE are ready to dig up a hillside where distraught Kate McCann dreamt missing daughter Madeleine had been placed.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html
Detectives target FOUR sites at Praia
By ANTHONY FRANCE, Crime Reporter and ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Wednesday, May 7, 2014
POLICE are ready to dig up a hillside where distraught Kate McCann dreamt missing daughter Madeleine had been placed.
In the nightmare, Kate was drawn to the spot because so many cars were heading towards it.
The site is one of four pinpointed in a fresh British investigation into the youngster's disappearance from a Portuguese holiday apartment.
Scotland Yard believes local officers may have missed or ignored them in the hectic aftermath.
A source said the digs were not necessarily in connection with finding Madeleine's remains - but could turn up hidden clues such as clothing or documents, or metal objects like a knife or crowbar.
Madeleine, then three, vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Two months later Kate told her family liaison officer Insp Ricardo Paiva about the dream. He said later: "She gave me the impression she thought Madeleine was dead." The area was searched unsuccessfully with sniffer dogs.
In September 2007 shocked Kate and husband Gerry were declared suspects but were cleared the following July when Portugal's attorney general closed the case.
A British inquiry was launched in May 2011 and last October Portuguese police bowed to pressure and reopened their investigations.
They have given permission for Met Police - tipped to soon make their first arrests - to carry out the excavations, using mechanical diggers and ground-penetrating radar.
As well as the hillside, they are believed to be concentrating on a road that had been under repair near the McCanns' Ocean Club apartment, on wasteland to the south, and on land at a beach to the east.
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "Kate and Gerry are being kept fully informed throughout." Last weekend the couple were joined by around 100 well-wishers, friends and family in their hometown of Rothley, Leics, on the seventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.
The McCanns thanked the public for their unstinting support and candles were lit for children around the world taken away from their parents against their will.
Gerry, 45, said the Met team were moving to a "very active" phase in their investigation, adding: "They are chipping away and obviously there is new evidence so we are going to continue to hope that we will get a happy outcome."
Earlier Kate, 46, said she sometimes returned to the resort to "walk the streets" and "look for answers."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Kate had dream of where to dig
POLICE are ready to dig up a hillside where distraught Kate McCann dreamt missing daughter Madeleine had been placed.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html
Detectives target FOUR sites at Praia
By ANTHONY FRANCE, Crime Reporter and ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Wednesday, May 7, 2014
POLICE are ready to dig up a hillside where distraught Kate McCann dreamt missing daughter Madeleine had been placed.
In the nightmare, Kate was drawn to the spot because so many cars were heading towards it.
The site is one of four pinpointed in a fresh British investigation into the youngster's disappearance from a Portuguese holiday apartment.
Scotland Yard believes local officers may have missed or ignored them in the hectic aftermath.
A source said the digs were not necessarily in connection with finding Madeleine's remains - but could turn up hidden clues such as clothing or documents, or metal objects like a knife or crowbar.
Madeleine, then three, vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Two months later Kate told her family liaison officer Insp Ricardo Paiva about the dream. He said later: "She gave me the impression she thought Madeleine was dead." The area was searched unsuccessfully with sniffer dogs.
In September 2007 shocked Kate and husband Gerry were declared suspects but were cleared the following July when Portugal's attorney general closed the case.
A British inquiry was launched in May 2011 and last October Portuguese police bowed to pressure and reopened their investigations.
They have given permission for Met Police - tipped to soon make their first arrests - to carry out the excavations, using mechanical diggers and ground-penetrating radar.
As well as the hillside, they are believed to be concentrating on a road that had been under repair near the McCanns' Ocean Club apartment, on wasteland to the south, and on land at a beach to the east.
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "Kate and Gerry are being kept fully informed throughout." Last weekend the couple were joined by around 100 well-wishers, friends and family in their hometown of Rothley, Leics, on the seventh anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.
The McCanns thanked the public for their unstinting support and candles were lit for children around the world taken away from their parents against their will.
Gerry, 45, said the Met team were moving to a "very active" phase in their investigation, adding: "They are chipping away and obviously there is new evidence so we are going to continue to hope that we will get a happy outcome."
Earlier Kate, 46, said she sometimes returned to the resort to "walk the streets" and "look for answers."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html
There was me thinking Kate never had this dream.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDveSZZGuM
I wonder if these will be before or after they find the body?
If the Met are going to make any arrests at all, they will have to be in the UK as they have no jurisdiction to do so in Portugal. Are we being given some hidden message or just sloppy journalism ?
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I wonder if these will be before or after they find the body?
I can't help but think that all this talk of digging, must be incredibly damaging to the search.
Who's going to be looking for a real live findable child when, apparently, the cops ain't.
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I wonder if these will be before or after they find the body?
If the Met are going to make any arrests at all, they will have to be in the UK as they have no jurisdiction to do so in Portugal. Are we being given some hidden message or just sloppy journalism ?
It's the Sun, further more it's Antonella, on that basis I think it's safe to assume it's just sloppy journalism.
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Some newspaper reports suggest that the ground surveys (presumably using dogs as well as radar etc) and possible digs are not necessarily to find actual remains.
So the question arises, can a dog locate a burial site where remains are no longer present?
In a missing person case in Texas, at the location which perp stated was burial location, even though the remains were no longer there, two dogs both signalled http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1101233.html
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Some newspaper reports suggest that the ground surveys (presumably using dogs as well as radar etc) and possible digs are not necessarily to find actual remains.
So the question arises, can a dog locate a burial site where remains are no longer present?In a missing person case in Texas, at the location which perp stated was burial location, even though the remains were no longer there, two dogs both signalled http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1101233.html
Eugene Zapata comes to mind.
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Some newspaper reports suggest that the ground surveys (presumably using dogs as well as radar etc) and possible digs are not necessarily to find actual remains.
So the question arises, can a dog locate a burial site where remains are no longer present?
In a missing person case in Texas, at the location which perp stated was burial location, even though the remains were no longer there, two dogs both signalled http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1101233.html
Good find.
"In July 1994, appellant, who appeared casual and nonchalant, met with police officers to discuss Maria's disappearance.
On November 9, 2001, police officers took two dogs trained to detect the scent of cadavers to the location where appellant said that he and his wife had dumped Maria's body. The two cadaver dogs and their handlers worked the area independently of one another so that they would not influence each other. Both dogs alerted within five or six feet of one another, at the spot that appellant had indicated he had placed the body. Although an excavation was performed, no remains were found."
If she was buried temporarily close to the church and moved again the dogs may find the spot.
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That nightmare IMO was result of the place having just been being highlighted in Krugel's confidential report and IMO it does not incriminate the witness at all to have or to mention it to PJ.
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Danie Krügel
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html
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you are quite at liberty to post exactly what you think on the forum...you wont offend me...I couldn't care less what you think. What I do know is that I have a lot of support on this forum
Yeah, you're my favourite member n'all dave 8**8:/:
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I was just pointing out what A/C Mark Rowley said according to the beeb.
I don't give a toss about the rest.
Point taken.
But although you seem to be disinterested in what seems to be the double standards which apply to secrecy laws and the press in Portugal, I am not.
I prefer to get information from official sources rather than dubious quotes from alleged official sources reported by some anonymous person.
We have seen where that has taken us in the past.
So I make no apology when it is assumed NSY can gag the press and when threats are issued that failure to do so will have the stated consequences of stopping NSY investigating.
Portugal has had seven years to sort out the failures of the initial investigation.
Why do they appear to be threatening to throw a spanner into the works to prevent NSY doing the job which should have been done then?
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Point taken.
But although you seem to be disinterested in what seems to be the double standards which apply to secrecy laws and the press in Portugal, I am not.
I prefer to get information from official sources rather than dubious quotes from alleged official sources reported by some anonymous person.
We have seen where that has taken us in the past.
So I make no apology when it is assumed NSY can gag the press and when threats are issued that failure to do so will have the stated consequences of stopping NSY investigating.
Portugal has had seven years to sort out the failures of the initial investigation.
Why do they appear to be threatening to throw a spanner into the works to prevent NSY doing the job which should have been done then?
Do we know this to be so, or is it just something else reported in the papers?
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Krugel highlighted two areas partway up the hill. In one of those areas he says he found a pink blanket. His confidential report was communicated to the PJ and the parents very shortly before DC trip IMO.
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Point taken.
But although you seem to be disinterested in what seems to be the double standards which apply to secrecy laws and the press in Portugal, I am not.
I prefer to get information from official sources rather than dubious quotes from alleged official sources reported by some anonymous person.
We have seen where that has taken us in the past.
So I make no apology when it is assumed NSY can gag the press and when threats are issued that failure to do so will have the stated consequences of stopping NSY investigating.
Portugal has had seven years to sort out the failures of the initial investigation.
Why do they appear to be threatening to throw a spanner into the works to prevent NSY doing the job which should have been done then?
Wouldn't it be soooo much better for all concerned if the Portuguese AG allowed the British media to film all the excavations, every moment of them, in HD.
They could get Ant n Dec to present a highlights package in the evenings.
That really would be the best thing to do wouldn't it.
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Wouldn't it be soooo much better for all concerned if the Portuguese AG allowed the British media to film all the excavations, every moment of them, in HD.
They could get Ant n Dec to present a highlights package in the evenings.
That really would be the best thing to do wouldn't it.
I suppose if they used Tony Robinson, they'd only have 3 days for the dig, so Ant & Dec it had better be 8(0(*
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Do we know this to be so, or is it just something else reported in the papers?
If it is included in an official statement from NSY I'm assuming it is accurate.
Just as I am taking on board the official statement that many requests in the Letters of Request have been refused.
So it is all determined by the source of the statement reported in the press, does it not?
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Wouldn't it be soooo much better for all concerned if the Portuguese AG allowed the British media to film all the excavations, every moment of them, in HD.
They could get Ant n Dec to present a highlights package in the evenings.
That really would be the best thing to do wouldn't it.
The media is intrusive.
We have all watched reports where the crime scene is under a tent to prevent such intrusion.
The long lens is a fact of life whether to be deplored or applauded probably depends on whether you are the victim or the spectator.
There is no doubt that Madeleine McCann's case has caught the public interest, and although discrete actions are appropriate, it will all be down to the lead policing authority who are the PJ.
One wonders if they even know who Ant and Dec are, but you could forward the suggestion to them.
The way this is being presently handled probably makes your choice quite appropriate.
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Reposted.
Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send Mr Moderator a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
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Been studying the current search sites. The closest is interesting. It was fenced but there was a way in IMO.
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The following three photos show what problems lie ahead for any ground excavations.
One of the potential search sites referred to as Search Area 2 on Pathfinders map (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4014.msg149996#msg149996)was previously waste ground located behind the church. The church is shown in the bottom left corner of the photo below, a yellow coloured excavator can be seen in the waste ground to the rear of the church.
(http://i.imgur.com/54UGbNH.jpg?1)
The waste ground has now been transformed into a proper car park with substantial hard landscaping.
(http://i.imgur.com/Mng9pML.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/47mhJL5.jpg?1)
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It might be fascinating but you are far from being a specialist in it.
You even DID NOT read the files of this case.
You write kilometres of posts based up on rugs reports and suspicious posts but some self proclaimed internet specialists in this case.
The more upset you get, the less coherent your posts become.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27300312
It looks like the Portuguese are already giving the MPS the hard line on that score. They seem to be saying keep your mouths shut keep your press on a tight leash or go home.
As I have pointed out repeatedly it was Portugal that leaked the digs information as confirmed by John on another thread...
If the digs mean nothing, WHY did SY tell the media about them?
They didn't, it was leaked by the Portuguese in Lagos.
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As I have pointed out repeatedly it was Portugal that leaked the digs information as confirmed by John on another thread...
If the digs mean nothing, WHY did SY tell the media about them?
They didn't, it was leaked by the Portuguese in Lagos.
Ok, wht did the PJ leak them, then tell SY that any leaks will cause the digs to stop?
That makes even less sense.
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As I have pointed out repeatedly it was Portugal that leaked the digs information as confirmed by John on another thread...
If the digs mean nothing, WHY did SY tell the media about them?
They didn't, it was leaked by the Portuguese in Lagos.
Just as well, really, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to endlessly pick over. 8(0(*
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Ok, wht did the PJ leak them, then tell SY that any leaks will cause the digs to stop?
That makes even less sense.
Does much of this make sense....everyone goes by newspaper reports which are almost certainly not accurate....from gossip on other sites...when will the digging start..will it ever start...who knows.
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As I have pointed out repeatedly it was Portugal that leaked the digs information as confirmed by John on another thread...
If the digs mean nothing, WHY did SY tell the media about them?
They didn't, it was leaked by the Portuguese in Lagos.
I find it hilarious that the Portuguese are threatening to pull the plug because SY are doing official Press briefings yet the PJ are unofficially leaking like a sieve.
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I find it hilarious that the Portuguese are threatening to pull the plug because SY are doing official Press briefings yet the PJ are unofficially leaking like a sieve.
Is it necessarily the PJ ? It could be an employee in the Justice Dept.
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Is it necessarily the PJ ? It could be an employee in the Justice Dept.
True, I mean't to add that. It could be the cleaning lady in the magistrates office for all we know.
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British Maddie cops touch down in Portugal ready to dig site near disappearance
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/377970/British-Maddie-cops-touch-down-in-Portugal-ready-to-dig-site-near-disappearance
British police arrive in Portugal to start digging in the search for Madeleine
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474740/British-police-arrive-in-Portugal-to-start-digging-in-the-search-for-Madeleine
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British Maddie cops touch down in Portugal ready to dig site near disappearance
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/377970/British-Maddie-cops-touch-down-in-Portugal-ready-to-dig-site-near-disappearance
British police arrive in Portugal to start digging in the search for Madeleine
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474740/British-police-arrive-in-Portugal-to-start-digging-in-the-search-for-Madeleine
Great news....what do posters think BH means by this...
Scotland Yard commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe today told Sky News: "There are always going to be complications when you have got one police force in one country working with the police force of another.
"We have both got to be sensitive to these things.
"The critical thing is, as Madeleine's parents have said and we all support, is that they need to have some closure on this, they need to know what happened to their daughter.
sounds like he thinks they aren't suspects
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Great news....what do posters think BH means by this...
Scotland Yard commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe today told Sky News: "There are always going to be complications when you have got one police force in one country working with the police force of another.
"We have both got to be sensitive to these things.
"The critical thing is, as Madeleine's parents have said and we all support, is that they need to have some closure on this, they need to know what happened to their daughter.
sounds like he thinks they aren't suspects
A good quote from H-H which says it all. Of course, it will be completely ignored by some.
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Great news....what do posters think BH means by this...
Scotland Yard commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe today told Sky News: "There are always going to be complications when you have got one police force in one country working with the police force of another.
"We have both got to be sensitive to these things.
"The critical thing is, as Madeleine's parents have said and we all support, is that they need to have some closure on this, they need to know what happened to their daughter.
sounds like he thinks they aren't suspects
Sounds to me like he's hopeful of finding some remains.
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Great news....what do posters think BH means by this...
Scotland Yard commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe today told Sky News: "There are always going to be complications when you have got one police force in one country working with the police force of another.
"We have both got to be sensitive to these things.
"The critical thing is, as Madeleine's parents have said and we all support, is that they need to have some closure on this, they need to know what happened to their daughter.
sounds like he thinks they aren't suspects
Wait until they find her remains and then watch the shit fly.
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Sounds to me like he's hopeful of finding some remains.
no...he's lulling them into a false sense of security
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no...he's lulling them into a false sense of security
Well that as well, of course. 8(0(*
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yes but I have the praise of Cornelius who posted...
Of course he doesn't he is the most respected and highly thought of poster on this forum...so many posts of such quality.
so there you are...most respected no less
Every bit Davel 8((()*/
Well spoken Cornelius 8@??)(
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Every bit Davel 8((()*/
Well spoken Cornelius 8@??)(
thanks Sadie...I have to be careful I don't get big headed
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That's rich coming from you Stephen, if you know what I mean
Nudge nudge
Have you been on the Jammie Dodgers ??? 8)--)) 8)--))
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I am sorry if I have missed something, cos I am lacking in time and energy atm
BUT are the dig sites posted anywhere on this forum? At a quick look I cabnt see them, yet they were clearly shown on the news this morning
I am unable to post from GE, sorry, but I can remember that the three sites outined were
1) the Staff quarters and their grounds up in Rua D'Escola
2) The wasteland which runs to the east of Rua D'escola and stretches across to the main road Rua de 1* Maio
3) The main Eastern beach
If no image of these places has been posted, could someone who is clever please do that.
If the image has been posted please could someone direct me to which thread and whereish. Thank you.
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I am sorry if I have missed something, cos I am lacking in time and energy atm
BUT are the dig sites posted anywhere on this forum? At a quick look I cabnt see them, yet they were clearly shown on the news this morning
I am unable to post from GE, sorry, but I can remember that the three sites outined were
1) the Staff quarters and their grounds up in Rua D'Escola
2) The wasteland which runs to the east of Rua D'escola and stretches across to the main road Rua de 1* Maio
3) The main Eastern beach
If no image of these places has been posted, could someone who is clever please do that.
If the image has been posted please could someone direct me to which thread and whereish. Thank you.
Scotland Yard are going to dig up the Ocean Club staff quarters ?
Where did you get that from ?
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The closer it is to the apartment, the more 'iffy' it is. It seems highly unlikely that a stranger is going to bury a body or evidence right next to the scene of the crime.
That leaves eitehr she woke, wandered, fell into open road works, wasn't spotted and the road works were closed up, or someone staying in the apartments. All speculation on my part obviously.
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The closer it is to the apartment, the more 'iffy' it is. It seems highly unlikely that a stranger is going to bury a body or evidence right next to the scene of the crime.
That leaves eitehr she woke, wandered, fell into open road works, wasn't spotted and the road works were closed up, or someone staying in the apartments. All speculation on my part obviously.
The idea that Kate and Gerry would dispose of maddie's body like that is absurd ...IMO.....
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The idea that Kate and Gerry would dispose of maddie's body like that is absurd ...IMO.....
The idea that anyone would dispose of a body like that seems pretty absurd, yet SY are looking for one in those locations.
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The closer it is to the apartment, the more 'iffy' it is. It seems highly unlikely that a stranger is going to bury a body or evidence right next to the scene of the crime.
That leaves eitehr she woke, wandered, fell into open road works, wasn't spotted and the road works were closed up, or someone staying in the apartments. All speculation on my part obviously.
No-one actually knows exactly who occupied these apartments.
For some reason the elementary police work necessary to ascertain that was omitted by the initial investigation.
NSY did request access to information about apartment owners and occupancy. That request was denied along with many others.
I agree, Cariad, the people staying in the apartments should have been interviewed in 2007.
Extraordinary that they were not.
Extraordinary that NSY have been blocked from finding out who they were. They considered it important enough to request the necessary permission, pity no-one thought it important enough to grant their request.
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No-one actually knows exactly who occupied these apartments.
For some reason the elementary police work necessary to ascertain that was omitted by the initial investigation.
NSY did request access to information about apartment owners and occupancy. That request was denied along with many others.
I agree, Cariad, the people staying in the apartments should have been interviewed in 2007.
Extraordinary that they were not.
Extraordinary that NSY have been blocked from finding out who they were. They considered it important enough to request the necessary permission, pity no-one thought it important enough to grant their request.
If you're going to keep making digs at the Portuguese police, I feel obliged to point out that none of this would be happening if a certain couple had just got a take away instead.
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If you're going to keep making digs at the Portuguese police, I feel obliged to point out that none of this would be happening if a certain couple had just got a take away instead.
I blame the criminal but perhaps you are the sort of person who ...if someone goes out in a short skirt and gets attacked....
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I blame the criminal but perhaps you are the sort of person who ...if someone goes out in a short skirt and gets attacked....
I think we all blame the criminal - we just disagree on the likely identity.
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No-one actually knows exactly who occupied these apartments.
For some reason the elementary police work necessary to ascertain that was omitted by the initial investigation.
NSY did request access to information about apartment owners and occupancy. That request was denied along with many others.
I agree, Cariad, the people staying in the apartments should have been interviewed in 2007.
Extraordinary that they were not.
Extraordinary that NSY have been blocked from finding out who they were. They considered it important enough to request the necessary permission, pity no-one thought it important enough to grant their request.
Extraordinary too that some people don't seem to view this as extraordinary. But we mustn't have a dig at the Portuguese Police must we, the PJ should remain above criticism at all times lest we cause umbrage.
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The idea that anyone would dispose of a body like that seems pretty absurd, yet SY are looking for one in those locations.
Have SY said they are looking for a body in those areas specifically?
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Have SY said they are looking for a body in those areas specifically?
I believe their lips are sealed. Which is how it should be.
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I am sorry if I have missed something, cos I am lacking in time and energy atm
BUT are the dig sites posted anywhere on this forum? At a quick look I cabnt see them, yet they were clearly shown on the news this morning
I am unable to post from GE, sorry, but I can remember that the three sites outined were
1) the Staff quarters and their grounds up in Rua D'Escola
2) The wasteland which runs to the east of Rua D'escola and stretches across to the main road Rua de 1* Maio
3) The main Eastern beach
If no image of these places has been posted, could someone who is clever please do that.
If the image has been posted please could someone direct me to which thread and whereish. Thank you.
Here you go Sadie
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621343/British-police-leading-hunt-Madeleine-McCann-given-permission-begin-digging-Portuguese-resort-disappeared.html
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Since you like to study photos you might want to have a look at this post Sadie.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4014.msg150235#msg150235
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I believe their lips are sealed. Which is how it should be.
But it doesn't stop people assuming that's what they are looking for.
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The idea that anyone would dispose of a body like that seems pretty absurd, yet SY are looking for one in those locations.
Well, if there is someone with history of attacking children and wanting to hurt them this would be just their next step.
And that someone is on loose in PDL.
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Insane, isn't it.
First we learn Tannerman was a lie.
Then we learn Smithman is Gerry.
Then we learn Gerry was seen carrying Madeleine toward the beach.
Now we have DIGS on that beach, coming not at the beginning of Operation Grange, when they could be called "exploratory" but at the END of Operation Grange, which means the digs can be referred to as the RESULT of Op Grange.
Yep, Operation Grange is just mounting another international folly, in the eyes of the world media, just to make sure that Amaral was wrong?
Seriously?
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Scotland Yard are going to dig up the Ocean Club staff quarters ?
Where did you get that from ?
I read maps Icabod. It was clearly outlined on the news this morning. Not sure if it was Sky News or BBC News. Also the waste land immediately across the road from the Staff quarters, that was outlined. And a pointer at the main beach. Nothing at the smaller western cove.
Like me, they will have worked out that the western cove has quite a depth of water over it at high tide so any body would have been washed up.
Shame Amaral didn't work that out before writing his [... speculative removed ...] book, dont you think ?
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I read maps Icabod. It was clearly outlined on the news this morning. Not sure if it was Sky News or BBC News. Also the waste land immediately across the toad from the Staff quarters, that was outlined. And a pointer at the main beach. Nothing at the smaller western cove.
Like me, they will have worked out that the western cove has quite a depth of water over it at high tide so any body would have been washed up.
Shame Amaral didn't work that out before writing his [...speculative removed...] book, dont you think ?
Have you even read his book?
The spots being dug are the same ones identified by Amaral and his team.
Oh and by the way, the book is not libellous The Portugese supreme court said so and is about to say so again, that is if this latest hearing isn't aborted.
Oh wait it already has been placed on indefinite hold.....
8-)(--)
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Have you even read his book?
The spots being dug are the same ones identified by Amaral and his team.
Oh and by the way, the book is not libellous. The Portugese supreme court said so and is about to say so again, that is if this latest hearing isn't aborted.
Oh wait it already has been placed on indefinite hold.....
8-)(--)
We are not Portuguese @)(++(* We don't worship people like that @)(++(*
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If the spots being dug were the same ones identified by Dr Amaral and his team ~ why didn't they excavate them in the process of the investigation?
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I read maps Icabod. It was clearly outlined on the news this morning. Not sure if it was Sky News or BBC News. Also the waste land immediately across the toad from the Staff quarters, that was outlined. And a pointer at the main beach. Nothing at the smaller western cove.
Like me, they will have worked out that the western cove has quite a depth of water over it at high tide so any body would have been washed up.
Shame Amaral didn't work that out before writing his book, dont you think ?
Putting Toads to one side, beaches do not routinely get washed out to sea twice a day by the tide.
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Because in the 3+ years that the yard have been working on the case new information has come to light that the PJ didn't have or hadn't discovered in the few months (not 3 years) they were working on the case back in 2007?
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Because in the 3+ years that the yard have been working on the case new information has come to light that the PJ didn't have or hadn't discovered in the few months (not 3 years) they were working on the case back in 2007?
The phone data.
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Putting Toads to one side, beaches do not routinely get washed out to sea twice a day by the tide.
Cheers Slarti, have ammended my spelling. 8((()*/
When they are little rocky coves like that, they will get unusual currents especially in rough conditions. The seas were roughening that night.
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Cheers Slarti, have ammended my spelling. 8((()*/
When they are little rocky coves like that, they will get unusual currents especially in rough conditions. The seas were roughening that night.
You don't know that
... you don't know there were 'unusual currents'
Stop making things up and presenting it as fact
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Because in the 3+ years that the yard have been working on the case new information has come to light that the PJ didn't have or hadn't discovered in the few months (not 3 years) they were working on the case back in 2007?
>@@(*&) Then why did they indicate them in 2007? Something must have attracted their attention to them.
I am not aware that Operation Grange came up with 'new information'.
It is my understanding they were working through the PJ files and highlighted from them areas which had not been properly investigated by the original investigation.
The evidence they used to reopen Madeleine's case was available to the PJ at the time, but had not been properly investigated.
For example, I believe the information regarding cell phone traffic was recorded in the files.
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You don't know that
... you don't know there were 'unusual currents'
Stop making things up and presenting it as fact
Why dont you ask peeps who live by such an Atlantic sea cove with rocky pieces jutting out ? Bet you such coves have mighty complex under currebts differing from straight stretches of land which are likely to have a simple current.
You only have to look at rocks situated like that to see how the tide undercurrents erodes the beach around them
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Why dont you ask peeps who live by such an Atlantic sea cove with rocky pieces jutting out ? Bet you such coves have mighty complex under currebts differing from straight stretches of land which are likely to have a simple current.
You only have to look at rocks situated like that to see how the tide undercurrents erodes the beach around them
Well, should those 'peeps' who live near the beach you are refering to, and who know what they're talking about, ever appear on the forum to pontificate about the 'unusual currents' there, then we can both take notice
Until then, you should stop pretending YOU 'know' shouldn't you ... because you don't
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... The spots being dug are the same ones identified by Amaral and his team....
There is a french phrase (and I keep thinking I've heard it before) called deja vu
The Sun, 12 SEPT 2007
"... outside the Portuguese church ... They fear the three-year-old’s body was stashed under roadworks, then later moved ... in a roadworks trench ... It has since been filled in ... but do NOT expect it to be her final resting place ... many of the streets in Praia da Luz were being dug up because of work to recobble them"
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There is a french phrase (and I keep thinking I've heard it before) called deja vu
The Sun, 12.09.2007
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic394.html
But Pegasus, behind the church was NOT shown on TV this morning as one of the places they were going to dig.
This mornings TV news showed
1) the Staff Accomodation buildings and grounds .. and
2) the waste ground immediately across Rua D'escola from the Staff Quarters. This land reaches across to a car park and Rua Primiera Maio
And 3) The big eastern beach
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Well, should those 'peeps' who live near the beach you are refering to, and who know what they're talking about, ever appear on the forum to pontificate about the 'unusual currents' there, then we can both take notice
Until then, you should stop pretending YOU 'know' shouldn't you ... because you don't
At least one person here has lived close to the sea .... JOHN
Maybe several others and I am inviting them to either confirm or disprove what I have said
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... behind the church was NOT shown on TV this morning ...
The Sept 2007 article I quoted was referring to open trench roadworks for drain renewal in May 2007 in the north-south public road which is on the west side of the church.
Both the current investigation, and the investigation referred to in that Sept 2007 article, appear to anticipate the possibility of discovering evidence of a no longer extant, previous, temporary location.
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"MW" employees AFAIK some lived in own accomodation, and some in employer-provided accomodation.
"OC" employees AFAIK had no employer-provided accomodation.
But the current areas publicised which will be searched by The PJ (with a foreign police force called SY observing) do not include buildings IMO, the searches are to be of land, not buildings IMO.
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The digs are NOT "checking" the PJ investigation.
The SY review which lasted two years did that, then led into Operation Grange.
Operation Grange is now at the exact same point the PJ got to before it got shelved.
Which OF COURSE is where they'd be, if the original investigation was solid.
Apparently it was solid, but not a word of apology to Amaral for all the abuse he has suffered over the last 7 years.
Not a word. Not from the McCanns anyway who burbled out a generic "hope for answers" instead of a hope that their daughter would be found.
Yet another Freudian slip, you'd think he would have learnt by now....!
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The question must be asked - why has The McCann not made it's way to the dig site?
They managed to come flying in with maximum urgency for the suspended libel trial.
One would think NOTHING would be more important than a dig which may finally find their baby.
If nothing else, it will be a wonderful new media opportunity to further their own much vaunted "search".
Sometimes it's what you don't do that is significant.
?8)@)-)
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The question must be asked - why has The McCann not made it's way to the dig site?
They managed to come flying in with maximum urgency for the suspended libel trial.
One would think NOTHING would be more important than a dig which may finally find their baby.
If nothing else, it will be a wonderful new media opportunity to further their own much vaunted "search".
Sometimes it's what you don't do that is significant.
?8)@)-)
What a strange person you are, insisting that The Mccanns should be at the digging.
If they were there, it goes without saying that you would be criticizing them for being there.
THey cant win even the slightest bit of empathy from you. What ever they do is always WRONG! ... ALWAYS
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What a strange person you are, insisting that The Mccanns should be at the digging.
If they were there, it goes without saying that you would be criticizing them for being there.
THey cant win even the slightest bit of empathy from you. What ever they do is always WRONG! ... ALWAYS
Excellent comprehension skills.
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Re the PJ search area west of Rua 1 Maio.
Using the principle start from the last known place seen (apartment) then examine a small circle centred there gradually increasing mm by mm in its radius, that would make the northern end the most interesting.
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... if I were able to post GE images...
GE I dont know about but on googlemaps/streetview pages there is a link button, press it and copy the link, and post it. No need to post the image just post the link
BTW here is link to a reported 2007 proposed although probably never implemented excavation of filled roadworks in the street near the church (which appears to be on the current list of search sites too)
Article was in TheSun 12 Sept 2007 however it seems to be no longer there but can be found at http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic394.html
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Cheers Slarti, have ammended my spelling. 8((()*/
When they are little rocky coves like that, they will get unusual currents especially in rough conditions. The seas were roughening that night.
Beaches in a holiday resort don't tend to be that bad otherwise the resorts don't prosper. Also there was a NW wind that night so the beaches were sheltered.
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The question must be asked - why has The McCann not made it's way to the dig site?
They managed to come flying in with maximum urgency for the suspended libel trial.
One would think NOTHING would be more important than a dig which may finally find their baby.
If nothing else, it will be a wonderful new media opportunity to further their own much vaunted "search".
Sometimes it's what you don't do that is significant.
?8)@)-)
So you think that after expressing their dismay at the media attention - they are going to go to PDL where they would be followed around by reporters and photographers and therefore would be encouraging the very thing they are hoping will stop? A fact which no doubt people like yourself would be only too eager to point out.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't. As per usual.
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So you think that after expressing their dismay at the media attention - they are going to go to PDL where they would be followed around by reporters and photographers and therefore would be encouraging the very thing they are hoping will stop? A fact which no doubt people like yourself would be only too eager to point out.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't. As per usual.
Alright. To balance it out a bit, I think they did the right things staying at home with the twins, to try and keep everything as normal as possible.
I don't suppose it matters what I think though, hence not commenting on it before.
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Alright. To balance it out a bit, I think they did the right things staying at home with the twins, to try and keep everything as normal as possible. I don't suppose it matters what I think though, hence not commenting on it before.
I totally agree Cariad.
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Note: Ricardo Paiva and Kate's hillside dream has its own thread here. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4055.0)
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Beaches in a holiday resort don't tend to be that bad otherwise the resorts don't prosper. Also there was a NW wind that night so the beaches were sheltered.
I haven't checked the wind direction, Where did you get that from?
Anyway, it isn't what the beach does thta matters, it lies dormant, unless moved.
It is what the seas do that affect the scouring out and movement of sand. The seas were roughening that evening, I can remember that well from the weather charts. If anyone disbelieves, the charts are posted on this forum somewhere and you can check.
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Sadie , for accuracy's sake, could you please stop using the word SEA in relation to the Atlantic.
Sure, sorry.
Will try and remember Ocean .... but on the scale of things it didn't seem overly important to me.
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My explanation is what really happened and connects with the rest of my theory. Now they are checking the sites I suspected. 1st move to wasteland 2nd move to close proximity to the church. 10:03 time Smithman spotted so she wasn't placed in a hole and concealed if she was before that time.
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At least one person here has lived close to the sea .... JOHN
Maybe several others and I am inviting them to either confirm or disprove what I have said
I live in very close proximity to a beautiful sandy beach.
There are dangerous currents offshore.
A few years ago a visiting child was drowned in an area which we as children knew as the ‘whirlpool’ and knew to avoid.
IMO there are undersea currents and undertows in all coastal areas.
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Thanks to everyone who has sent me questions so far, it's still not too late to submit them.
Reminder
Members will be aware of the current developments in Praia da Luz, Portugal, where Scotland Yard have received permission to extend the dig sites previously identified by Gonçalo Amaral and his team. Specialist recovery dogs and ground penetrating radar will both be used in this latest search.
As promised, we will be speaking with Martin Grime soon so if there are any general questions you would like us to put to him in relation to EVRD or CSI dogs please send me a personal message.
This is a unique opportunity so please avail of it.
MM
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Sure, sorry.
Will try and remember Ocean .... but on the scale of things it didn't seem overly important to me.
It isn't important...we talk about the sea side....swimming in the sea....there's much more important things ..definition alert..
The sea, the world ocean, or simply the ocean, is the connected body of salty water that covers over 70 percent of the Earth's surface. It moderates the Earth's climate and has important roles in the water cycle, carbon cycle, and nitrogen cycle.
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So Scotland Yard want to dig up private property behind the church ?
Is that suggestive that they are considering the cadaver dog's alerts were accurate, and that Madeleine 's dead body was subsequently hidden ?
I mean the McCanns have direct connections with that church ... even had their own key to it
Conversely, I can't think what connection that church might have to any abduction theory
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Sorry if I seemed overly pedantic...just thought as we are discussing currents in this part of the world we should speak about the ocean as currents will be different..also have you seen the waves off the Algarve coast?!
I have a feeling I am not the only one getting tetchy, I imagine with the latest developments, many of us on both sides of the abduction fence are feeling a little tense as things start to unfold.
One thing I am sure we all agree on....we want the truth to come out about what has happened to this little girl, who we must now believe, given recent developments. to be sadly deceased.
The truth is what matters here, not whether abduction believers or non-believers are right or wrong. We do not matter. Madeleine does.
Agree 100%
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Sorry if I seemed overly pedantic...just thought as we are discussing currents in this part of the world we should speak about the ocean as currents will be different..also have you seen the waves off the Algarve coast?!
I have a feeling I am not the only one getting tetchy, I imagine with the latest developments, many of us on both sides of the abduction fence are feeling a little tense as things start to unfold.
One thing I am sure we all agree on....we want the truth to come out about what has happened to this little girl, who we must now believe, given recent developments. to be sadly deceased.
The truth is what matters here, not whether abduction believers or non-believers are right or wrong. We do not matter. Madeleine does.
I'll jump on board with that too.
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Members should take care when posting since there are three live threads which potentially deal with the proposed digs in Praia da Luz.
* Latest news on the search for Madeleine McCann.
* Scotland Yard about to commence digs in and around Praia da Luz.
* Could a child really be buried so quick and never be found?
It is important that you post on the correct thread. Your cooperation in this would be greatly appreciated.
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"Could a child be buried so quick?"
IF a hole was already dug, of course she could.
Amaral's thesis is that she was hidden/buried TEMPORARILY then moved by car 25 days later.
No one knows the timeline of that night, which is why the whole investigation was shut down in the first place.
Non-cooperation of those who were expected to cooperate.
Refusal to perform a reconstruction which remains the only way to definitively prove where x, y or z was, and when.
Now we know there are "8 persons of interest" which kind of wipes out 3 burglars.
The 8 people who have consistently refused to cooperate are THE TAPAS 9 MINUS DIANE WEBSTER.
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"Could a child be buried so quick?"
IF a hole was already dug, of course she could.
Amaral's thesis is that she was hidden/buried TEMPORARILY then moved by car 25 days later.
No one knows the timeline of that night, which is why the whole investigation was shut down in the first place.
Non-cooperation of those who were expected to cooperate.
Refusal to perform a reconstruction which remains the only way to definitively prove where x, y or z was, and when.
Now we know there are "8 persons of interest" which kind of wipes out 3 burglars.
The 8 people who have consistently refused to cooperate are THE TAPAS 9 MINUS DIANE WEBSTER.
these are british ...no ILOR needed...shows you are wrong again
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A very high proportion of stuff published in the UK press has been re-cycled from the Portuguese press.
But what about all the translation inaccuracies?
8-)(--)
Also, since WHEN is the UK media just a translation machine for international press?
The UK media are famous for making stuff up as they go along. They aren't bilingual either so can't read the Portugese reports, as has been pointed out ad nauseum on this forum - the Lost In Translation Excuse which features on every second thread.
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you actually highlighted the sentence and said prove it
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Prove it.
The fact that this has been spouted about the UK rags for weeks now yet NO ONE HAS BEEN INTERVIEWED kind of makes this statement ridiculous.
The sight of a military helicopter hovering over that little church, and the earth diggers on the way make it crystal clear that 'interviewing burglars' is not Scotland Yard's priority just now
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There seem to be some differences between various press reports about the exact location of the street to be potentially dug up where there had been an open roadwork trench. I found 4 possible locations
#1 is a trench which was possibly open in the public road just west of the church, this trench was for drain replacement, there was a photo in a minor local newspaper article predating May 3 but I can't find it now.
#2 and #3 are the two open trench locations which already in the published case files are described, photographed in their filled in state, and mapped. These are further north than the church but further south than the apartment.
#4 is an inspection hole reported in the files by a witness who saw the cover and surround off and placed at the side of the street on 3 May (and the witness's opinion seems to be that would be possible for someone to have fallen into the uncovered hole), but then the witness saw the cover and surround correctly in place the next day, location is at a junction somewhere near the supermarket. This being probably the closest to the apartment of the four I have listed.
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I would check all around the church first #1 including building site now car park but all the road works will be checked again #2/3.
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That little church that the McCanns had private access to seems to have been the focus of the military helicopter commisioned for the task in hand
... a military helicopter !
They don't get called in on some random whim I'm thinking
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Yes agreed getting those keys to the church fascinates me and that's why I would search there first (also Smithman was heading towards it).
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Yes getting those keys to the church fascinates me and that's why I would search there first (also Smithman was heading to it).
Was he ?
I didn't realise he was going in the direction of the church when the Smith family saw him
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Of the approx 4 search sites named by various press reports, JIMO the only one of interest is the one closest to the place the missing person was last seen, as little as 120 metres away, it has the additional feature that at that time (contrary to an incorrect press report) IMO it was fenced, and so there is both proximity and non-visibility. The various open roadworks etc of the time obviously have to be checked and its JIMO they don't seem likely to be relevant. The beach IMO may refer really to the little west beach but I might be wrong maybe it's the far east end of the main beach (it's IMO difficult to see how they could have a reason to pick some point midway along the main beach).
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For all but one of the current proposed sites I don't see how anything could have physically got there.
One site is all they're looking for.
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Of the approx 4 search sites named by various press reports, JIMO the only one of interest is the one closest to the place the missing person was last seen, as little as 120 metres away, it has the additional feature that at that time (contrary to an incorrect press report) IMO it was fenced, and so there is both proximity and non-visibility. The various open roadworks etc of the time obviously have to be checked and its JIMO they don't seem likely to be relevant. The beach IMO may refer really to the little west beach but I might be wrong maybe it's the far east end of the main beach (it's IMO difficult to see how they could have a reason to pick some point midway along the main beach).
I agree about the big beach. No way would Smithman or anyone dig there , with a childs sand spade especially. The thought is ridiculous. Also about checking the road works.
But imo thru things I have found after the immediate abduction Madeleine left PdL as a living child
Probably on a boat.
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I agree about the big beach. No way would Smithman or anyone dig there , withg a childs sand spade especially. The thought is ridiculous. Also anout checking the road works.
But imo thru things I have found after the immediate abduction Madeleine left PdL as a living child
Probably on a boat.
Surfboard I reckon.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1764.15
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I agree about the big beach. No way would Smithman or anyone dig there , withg a childs sand spade especially. The thought is ridiculous. Also anout checking the road works.
But imo thru things I have found after the immediate abduction Madeleine left PdL as a living child
Probably on a boat.
She may not have though Sadie. Sy may find a body and you need to prepare yourself for that.
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She may not have though Sadie. Sy may find a body and you need to prepare yourself for that.
Cariad, I am prepared for anything because I cannot be certian that my, sometimes unusual observations, are correct ... but I now have dozens of pointers.
I am leagues past the rest of you ... If I am correct, of course
I am prepared for anything, but of course, I shall be assolutely distraught if they do find Madeleines body.
I believe she was kept alive, and in a protected manner, for at least 4+ years. After over 4 years looking after her, I find it most unlikely that they would consider killing her.
I think she is still alive and living a more or less normal life now, but unhappily not the life she should have had with her Mummy and Daddy and S*** and A*****
I hope that I am right.
Thanks for your concern Cariad..... appreciated 8((()*/
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Cariad, I am prepared for anything because I cannot be certian that my, sometimes unusual observations, are correct ... but I now have dozens of pointers.
I am leagues past the rest of you ... If I am correct, of course
I am prepared for anything, but of course, I shall be assolutely distraught if they do find Madeleines body.
I believe she was kept alive, and in a protected manner, for at least 4+ years. After over 4 years looking after her, I find it most unlikely that they would consider killing her.
I think she is still alive and living a more or less normal life now, but unhappily not the life she should have had with her Mummy and Daddy and S*** and A*****
I hope that I am right.
Thanks for your concern Cariad..... appreciated 8((()*/
Believe it or not, it was genuine. I don't agree with your theories, as you know. I do realise that you've invested a lot of time, money and emotion in this case though.
I really don't see a happy ending here.
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Catching up re the title of this thread:
Scotland Yard about to commence digs in and around Praia da Luz.
The idea that either the Met or the PJ is going to be digging up most of PdL and surrounding areas, without any particular credible intelligence... seems to be tabloid rubbish.
There may be a reason to check out specific areas.
Let the police get on with their investigation.
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Cariad, I am prepared for anything because I cannot be certian that my, sometimes unusual observations, are correct ... but I now have dozens of pointers.
I am leagues past the rest of you ... If I am correct, of course
I am prepared for anything, but of course, I shall be assolutely distraught if they do find Madeleines body.
I believe she was kept alive, and in a protected manner, for at least 4+ years. After over 4 years looking after her, I find it most unlikely that they would consider killing her.
I think she is still alive and living a more or less normal life now, but unhappily not the life she should have had with her Mummy and Daddy and S*** and A*****
I hope that I am right.
Thanks for your concern Cariad..... appreciated 8((()*/
Your modesty and humbleness never ceases to amaze.
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What I want to know is - why are the police bothering with helicopters and radar imaging and all of that high-tech stuff in the areas they are searching when presumably all they need to do is let the dogs off the lead and hey presto! Body found within seconds.
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What I want to know is - why are the police bothering with helicopters and radar imaging and all of that high-tech stuff in the areas they are searching when presumably all they need to do is let the dogs off the lead and hey presto! Body found within seconds.
(http://i.imgur.com/K7ZB6Lb.jpg?1)
http://www.worth1000.com/entries/138323/skydiving-collie
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What I want to know is - why are the police bothering with helicopters and radar imaging and all of that high-tech stuff in the areas they are searching when presumably all they need to do is let the dogs off the lead and hey presto! Body found within seconds.
I see your point...didn't eddie detect a coconut that had previously been in contact with a cadaver through six feet of concrete in jersey
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I see your point...didn't eddie detect a coconut that had previously been in contact with a cadaver through six feet of concrete in jersey
I believe so. I also believe the dogs never lie (except when they need a rest).
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I see your point...didn't eddie detect a coconut that had previously been in contact with a cadaver through six feet of concrete in jersey
They're probably trying to narrow down a place for the dogs to search. You know, Those 'notoriously unreliable' dogs.
I wonder how the Dr's Mccann feel about their deployment this time around?
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They're probably trying to narrow down a place for the dogs to search. You know, Those 'notoriously unreliable' dogs.
I wonder how the Dr's Mccann feel about their deployment this time around?
I may be wrong but I should imagine they feel sick to the core of their being about it - I mean, wouldn't you if your child was missing and the police felt the need to use "cadaver" dogs to find her?
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They're probably trying to narrow down a place for the dogs to search. You know, Those 'notoriously unreliable' dogs.
I wonder how the Dr's Mccann feel about their deployment this time around?
The police may simply be trying to assess the landscape. If they have earlier aerial photos, they may well be checking what has changed since then, or could be attempting to check out something specific.
Quite possibly with a view as to where they could best deploy assets (dogs and / or hi tech equipment).
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I may be wrong but I should imagine they feel sick to the core of their being about it - I mean, wouldn't you if your child was missing and the police felt the need to use "cadaver" dogs to find her?
It's not the first time they've been in this situation though and they just rubbished them before. Do you think they've changed their minds about the dog's reliability?
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They're probably trying to narrow down a place for the dogs to search. You know, Those 'notoriously unreliable' dogs.
I wonder how the Dr's Mccann feel about their deployment this time around?
I think Drs McCann will be feeling pretty awful at the moment as they may well be getting the news that their daughter is deceased . I don't expect some posters on this forum to understand in the slightest and they will continue to post about poor maddie with their posts riddled with smily emoticons
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THEY ARE DIGGING UP PDL yet STILL some think little Madeleine is alive and well in Buttock, Spain.
Tell me, those who are CERTAIN little Madeleine is alive and well - why aren't her parents at the dig?
The first tangible "search" for Madeleine since...........well how long?
And THEY'RE NOT THERE.
Why not? Never give up, leave no stone unturned - here we are about to have PDL turned over and the McCann is ignoring it.
They have arguably the best search team in the world assembled in PDL, with arguably the best chance in 7 years to actually FIND Madeleine, yet they are NOT THERE.
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THEY ARE DIGGING UP PDL yet STILL some think little Madeleine is alive and well in Buttock, Spain.
Tell me, those who are CERTAIN little Madeleine is alive and well - why aren't her parents at the dig?
The first tangible "search" for Madeleine since...........well how long?
And THEY'RE NOT THERE.
Why not? Never give up, leave no stone unturned - here we are about to have PDL turned over and the McCann is ignoring it.
They have arguably the best search team in the world assembled in PDL, with arguably the best chance in 7 years to actually FIND Madeleine, yet they are NOT THERE.
I'm glad you think they have the best search team in the world and that Redwwod is a fantastic detective...lets see if you agree with his findings. Could you let me know exactly when the excavations will start so I can pass it on to Drs McCann
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Hi John,
I'm fine, thank you, I stopped posting out of boredom to see posts (some being mine) deleted whereas insulting ones remained. They're still found acceptable, your forum is notorious for leaving posters argue ad hominem !
I'm now answering to a pm of yours, therefore if you delete it, I'll laugh.
You asked "what I thought of the latest news from PDL".
I understand fairly well that SY wants to dig a certain place (road works) in 25 de Abril (the Alouette III of the Air Force passed three times over the part near the church).
I understand also why the MP accepted that request. They likely never considered that Smithman was heading towards the church square and when (if) they did, the road words were finished.
It shows clearly that they believe Madeleine's body could be buried there, not buried in a hole that would have been dug with a shovel, but deposited in a cavity and covered with stones.They will look for cavities, that's what the geo-radar is for.
This reveals that they believe that Smithman was carrying a corpse. I always believed that, reading Martin Smith's description of the carrier's clumsiness.
Knowing the Portuguese's worship for kids, I think those building works were carefully examined more thrice than once. I also think that Smithman couldn't afford taking any risk.
Therefore I bet that SY will find nothing.
But, following the hypothetico-deductive method, they should find out.
Strangley I agree with Anne...this is about ruling out a suspect and scenario...but who knows.. however I'm sure smithman wasn't gerry
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Note on the helicopter: The Alouette III (the military helicopter seen) is at most being used to show the area from the air to the SY and PJ inspectors/police. If they wanted current photos of the area they would request the Portuguese Air Force to use the C-295 aircraft, which can be equipped with dedicated equipment way better for aerial photography than the Alouette III could ever be equipped with.
Also note that the Portuguese Air Force's P-3C (the newer version) and the C-295 (the MPA version) can be equipped not only with cameras for photo reconnaissance but also with other sensors, such as ground penetrating radars, to analyze the ground and conduct geophysical surveys, which could be enough to sense disturbances underground.
Either the Alouette III was being used to show the area to the detectives or was just a "para o inglês ver" for the media/press.
Cheers,
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Note on the helicopter: The Alouette III (the military helicopter seen) is at most being used to show the area from the air to the SY and PJ inspectors/police. If they wanted current photos of the area they would request the Portuguese Air Force to use the C-295 aircraft, which can be equipped with dedicated equipment way better for aerial photography than the Alouette III could ever be equipped with.
Also note that the Portuguese Air Force's P-3C (the newer version) and the C-295 (the MPA version) can be equipped not only with cameras for photo reconnaissance but also with other sensors, such as ground penetrating radars, to analyze to ground and conduct geo surveys, which could be enough to sense disturbances underground.
Either the Alouette III was being used to show the area to the detectives or was just a "para o inglês ver" for the media/press.
Cheers,
You sound like you know what you're on about. I assume that it was an expensive fly over and that it would've taken so time to organise, what do you reckon?
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http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/05/11/revelations-in-search-for-maddie-mccann/
"... key areas to be searched ... the tapas bar ..."
Probably a typographical error?
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You sound like you know what you're on about. I assume that it was an expensive fly over and that it would've taken so time to organise, what do you reckon?
I don't have any inside information regarding this particular flight. Nevertheless, the Alouette III isn't that expensive to operate and the Portuguese Air Force cooperates closely with other government agencies (i.e. Civilian Protection - Protecção Civil). If you were the PJ and needed quick air support your best option would be to try to request an helicopter from EMA (state owned company which had a contract with the Ministry of the Internal Administration) or ask the Air Force. The PJ and the Air Force already often work together in anti-narcotic operations.
Since the Alouette III is mostly used for instruction/training, apart from a small coastal SAR detachment in Ovar (north of the country), it wouldn't be that difficult to request one just to fly some people over Praia da Luz. For the Air Force it could even still count as simple navigation training or just a flight to maintain their pilot's certification on the type.
As such, I believe that at this time of year (with the wildfire season a little way off and no large joint military exercises taking place) just one day or two days would be enough to organize this flight.
Cheers,
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@Pzi do you know who provided the helicopter (or plane?) for the UK police NPIA expert to overfly and examine the terrain in July 2007 please?
ETA: Sorry answering own question here but just found
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html
He used a Civil Defence helicopter
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I don't have any inside information regarding this particular flight. Nevertheless, the Alouette III isn't that expensive to operate and the Portuguese Air Force cooperates closely with other government agencies (i.e. Civilian Protection - Protecção Civil). If you were the PJ and needed quick air support your best option would be to try to request an helicopter from EMA (state owned company which had a contract with the Ministry of the Internal Administration) or ask the Air Force. The PJ and the Air Force already often work together in anti-narcotic operations.
Since the Alouette III is mostly used for instruction/training, apart from a small coastal SAR detachment in Ovar (north of the country), it wouldn't be that difficult to request one just to fly some people over Praia da Luz. For the Air Force it could even still count as simple navigation training or just a flight to maintain their pilot's certification on the type.
As such, I believe that at this time of year (with the wildfire season a little way off and no large joint military exercises taking place) just one day or two days would be enough to organize this flight.
Cheers,
Thank you for that. So not quite as difficult or expensive as I imagined then...
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http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/05/11/revelations-in-search-for-maddie-mccann/
"... key areas to be searched ... the tapas bar ..."
Probably a typographical error?
It must be an error, surely ?
How could anything have been concealed in the tapas bar ?
If it's not an error, however, then it suggests the current searches have nothing to do with 'abduction' and evertything to do with the McCanns' holiday group
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It must be an error, surely ?
How could anything have been concealed in the tapas bar ?
If it's not an error, however, then it suggests the current searches have nothing to do with 'abduction' and evertything to do with the McCanns' holiday group
Yes error IMO, maybe they meant to write "wasteland near the tapas bar" or something like that, and mistyped it?
BTW I was looking at the scrub areas selected, partly by aerial survey from a helicopter, in July 2007, to be searched July 31 2007 onwards. I noticed the survey did not select the wasteland west of the apartment, and instead selected several scrubland areas roughly northeast of the apartment. I wonder if this directional bias in the July 2007 survey by the NPIA was due to conditioning by the sighting which was at that time given great priority of a carrier walking east. Now that bias is gone, and the area just to the west will be searched, which is BTW closer than the 2007 scrubland searches by Eddie.
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It must be an error, surely ?
How could anything have been concealed in the tapas bar ?
If it's not an error, however, then it suggests the current searches have nothing to do with 'abduction' and evertything to do with the McCanns' holiday group
It is an obvious error and is an illustration of exactly how such genuine errors get woven into the mythology of everything to do with Madeleine McCann's case.
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It is an obvious error and is an illustration of exactly how such genuine errors get woven into the mythology of everything to do with Madeleine McCann's case.
And you know this....how?
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the problem with the british public is that most of them don't come from britain
And most of them have no grasp of the English language.
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If someone wants to hide something why on earth would they walk past (and I mean walk past continuously for over 200 paces BTW) a fairly non-risky place that's shielded from public view and unlit and instead continue walking onwards down roads with potentially people on to look for a more risky place?
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What I mean is, if you look at the route some propose for smithman's hypothesised walk from apartment to sighting, it passed continuously along about 200 metres of perimeter corrugated panel fencing of an unused, concealed from public view, unlit area. This is why I think AR's team has been doing very good on-the-ground research to select this as one of the upcoming ground survey areas. Even if smithman turns out to be irrelevant, the characteristics of proximity, shielding, and absence of lighting, still make it a sensible selection JIMO.
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What I mean is, if you look at the route some propose for smithman's hypothesised walk from apartment to sighting, it passed continuously along about 200 metres of perimeter corrugated panel fencing of an unused, concealed from public view, unlit area. This is why I think AR's team has been doing very good on-the-ground research to select this as one of the upcoming ground survey areas. Even if smithman turns out to be irrelevant, the characteristics of proximity, shielding, and absence of lighting, still make it a sensible selection JIMO.
Absolutely the most logical place to look. Waste ground, which had access. Close proximity to the crime scene.
Dr Amaral maintains that his men thoroughly checked and searched it and I think that would be true.
The GNR did a good job in many regards and I am certain they would have deployed their dogs here.
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Absolutely the most logical place to look. Waste ground, which had access. Close proximity to the crime scene.
Dr Amaral maintains that his men thoroughly checked and searched it and I think that would be true.
The GNR did a good job in many regards and I am certain they would have deployed their dogs here.
And the newspapers which say it was unfenced at the time are wrong, it was fenced, and not with the current see-through wire fencing, it was high opaque metal panels, so this gave the unique characteristic that it was shielded from public view.
The July-August 2007 searches of various scrubland by Eddie did not include this one. There was IMO a selection of nearby scrubland areas to northeast because of the sighting focussed on at that time and for the same reason nearby sites west were not selected. That will now presumably be remedied at last by one of Eddie's successors.
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What I mean is, if you look at the route some propose for smithman's hypothesised walk from apartment to sighting, it passed continuously along about 200 metres of perimeter corrugated panel fencing of an unused, concealed from public view, unlit area. This is why I think AR's team has been doing very good on-the-ground research to select this as one of the upcoming ground survey areas. Even if smithman turns out to be irrelevant, the characteristics of proximity, shielding, and absence of lighting, still make it a sensible selection JIMO.
They need to check by the church - ground/road works first before the wasteland. Smithman didn't leave her in the wasteland - I believe it was on the outside of the perimeter fence (north west) but they need to check inside but it's not first priority - close to the church is where the suspect was heading IMO!
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They need to check by the church - ground/road works first before the wasteland. Smithman didn't leave her in the wasteland - I believe it was on the outside of the perimeter fence (north west) but they need to check inside but it's not first priority - close to the church is where the suspect was heading IMO!
I do not understand why a perp would while walking alongside about 200 metres of perimeter fence, inside which is unused, unlit land, with a part totally invisible to public view, would think oh I will ignore that safe option, and walk to the church at the centre of the town instead.
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I do not understand why a perp would while walking alongside about 200 metres of perimeter fence, inside which is unused, unlit land, with a part totally invisible to public view, would think oh I will ignore that safe option, and walk to the church at the centre of the town instead.
Smithman didn't want the body to be found and it wasn't.
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Some good logic beginning to come out at last. Why on earth would anyone abduct a child to then have to take the risk of carrying her down a street only to bury her. Not logical imo.
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Smithman didn't want the body to be found and it wasn't.
Ugh..... 8()(((@#
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Map of two open trench locations closer to the apartment than the church
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3987.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 1)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3985.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 2)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3986.jpg
These two trenches were open on evening 3rd May.
For water, phone, and electric, they were 1.2m deep x 0.9m wide.
In the photos pieces of brown/red pipe have been placed to mark the linear extent of each trench.
The utility workers on 4th knew of the disappearance and checked the trenches before continuing.
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Big gap under corrugated metal perimeter fence Aug 2009
Now a 2014 search area
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I remain mindful that searchers that night were looking for a live child, one who could answer calls and was mobile.
NO ONE was looking for a grave.
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I remain mindful that searchers that night were looking for a live child, one who could answer calls and was mobile.
NO ONE was looking for a grave.
That's exactly what I was thinking and I perused the last days posts. The GNR dog handlers would not have bothered to go into any areas which were fenced off since as you say they were looking for a straying child and not a grave. Big mistake imo.
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That's exactly what I was thinking and I per used the last days posts. The GNR dog handlers would not have bothered to go into any areas which were fenced off since as you say they were looking for a straying child and not a grave. Big mistake imo.
Yes, it was a massive mistake to trust what the McCanns said and did.
They have steered the investigation since day one.
Kate - "they've taken her!" - who is THEY? 8()(((@#
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Amaral thought they were guilty from day one, he says so himself in his book. What stopped him and his team from searching the wasteland?
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Amaral thought they were guilty from day one, he says so himself in his book. What stopped him and his team from searching the wasteland?
It was searched but not dug up. The PJ only got ground penetrating radar four years ago.
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It was searched but not dug up. The PJ only got ground penetrating radar four years ago.
A correction is needed. Portugal has used georadar technology much earlier than 2007 for various purposes, and it was used when searches were performed in Jul/Aug 2007.
I've no patience to go over the files, but I can give a reference from a news article in Jornal de Notícias, July 6, 2012, paper edition, page. 14, translated in full at http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/07/attorney-generals-office-and-expert.html (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/07/attorney-generals-office-and-expert.html)
Fernando Almeida. Associate Professor, Department of Geosciences at the University of Aveiro. Specialized in Geophysics, [ «In August 2007 I joined an international team, among which was the English investigator Mark Harrison, to perform georadar surveys in Murat's residence. The work was exhausting, lasted two days and involved over 20 people.»], when responding to Birch's allegations:
"Fernando Almeida, the expert in Geophysics and professor at the University of Aveiro that participated in the investigations done with georadar to Murat's house back in 2007, says that the signal that was detected [by Birch] may correspond to objects, debris, rock fragments, supply pipes, etc... and he explains that “this method always requires confirmation by excavation, otherwise the interpretations are only hypotheses”.
P.S. It's good to see that some serious discussion is actually possible.
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A correction is needed. Portugal has used georadar technology much earlier than 2007 for various purposes, and it was used when searches were performed in Jul/Aug 2007.
I've no patience to go over the files, but I can give a reference from a news article in Jornal de Notícias, July 6, 2012, paper edition, page. 14, translated in full at http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/07/attorney-generals-office-and-expert.html (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/07/attorney-generals-office-and-expert.html)
Fernando Almeida. Associate Professor, Department of Geosciences at the University of Aveiro. Specialized in Geophysics, [ «In August 2007 I joined an international team, among which was the English investigator Mark Harrison, to perform georadar surveys in Murat's residence. The work was exhausting, lasted two days and involved over 20 people.»], when responding to Birch's allegations:
"Fernando Almeida, the expert in Geophysics and professor at the University of Aveiro that participated in the investigations done with georadar to Murat's house back in 2007, says that the signal that was detected [by Birch] may correspond to objects, debris, rock fragments, supply pipes, etc... and he explains that “this method always requires confirmation by excavation, otherwise the interpretations are only hypotheses”.
Might be a good idea to check out the hypotheses.
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Might be a good idea to check out the hypotheses.
I agree.
There are several people more informed than me that believe that it would be a way to put a stop to any further speculation. However, I also understand Murat's position - it mustn't be easy to accept further incursions in your house after what you've suffered.
Legally there's no way to force a search without founded suspicion. Birch blew it when he performed a crime with his searches - it made whatever he found inadmissible for an inquiry judge to use it.
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I agree.
There are several people more informed than me that believe that it would be a way to put a stop to any further speculation. However, I also understand Murat's position - it mustn't be easy to accept further incursions in your house after what you've suffered.
Legally there's no way to force a search without founded suspicion. Birch blew it when he performed a crime with his searches - it made whatever he found inadmissible for an inquiry judge to use it.
As use of section 56 & 57 of the penal code in the complaint against Mr Birch by Mr Murat and the Lagos police illustrate.
I have asked the question before ... "why now?"
However even if the evidence that might be gained from a dig in Mrs Murat's garden may be inadmissable at the moment, surely the exploration of a site which has been identified as a possible grave of a missing child should take priority over legal nicities?
I am sure such an excavation could be done with minimum disruption to the occupants of the villa and the people of Priai da Luz.
Mr Birch managed to carry out his searches discretely enough, not even Mrs Murat's dogs were disturbed by him.
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As use of section 56 & 57 of the penal code in the complaint against Mr Birch by Mr Murat and the Lagos police illustrate.
I have asked the question before ... "why now?"
However even if the evidence that might be gained from a dig in Mrs Murat's garden may be inadmissable at the moment, surely the exploration of a site which has been identified as a possible grave of a missing child should take priority over legal nicities?
I am sure such an excavation could be done with minimum disruption to the occupants of the villa and the people of Priai da Luz.
Mr Birch managed to carry out his searches discretely enough, not even Mrs Murat's dogs were disturbed by him.
I don't defend it, but the law is clear that evidence obtained by illicit means cannot be considered in criminal investigations. This is not specific to Portuguese Law, the exact same happens all over the world.
I expect, nevertheless, that there will be means to go around this very stupid incident.
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No correction needed Luz, Angelo is perfectly correct in what he stated.
It was searched but not dug up. The PJ only got ground penetrating radar four years ago.
PJ police have sanctioned the Met’s request for searches of various sites in Praia da Luz, but has not yet decided “whether the means to be used will be exclusively English”. Scotland Yard wants to use geo-radar and sniffer dogs, as well as British forensic teams, writes Sol website. But the decision is in the hands of the PJ, which also has radar, bought four years ago, able to capture images in the subsoil.
www.portugalresident.com/madeleine-birthday-brings-more-news
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In any case, there is no reliable evidence there will be diggings performed anywhere. So far, all there is are attempts to identify possible sites where potential information may be obtained, by excavations if needed.
I may sound very sceptic, but I suspect no digging will actually be performed, although the PT authorities have given approval for such.
For me all this is just a PR operation, nothing else.
Why?
Because NSY is only going over what the initial investigation has already done. Apart from speculation on the Media, so far, nothing new has been found, IMO of course.
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No correction needed Luz, Angelo is perfectly correct in what he stated.
PJ police have sanctioned the Met’s request for searches of various sites in Praia da Luz, but has not yet decided “whether the means to be used will be exclusively English”. Scotland Yard wants to use geo-radar and sniffer dogs, as well as British forensic teams, writes Sol website. But the decision is in the hands of the PJ, which also has radar, bought four years ago, able to capture images in the subsoil.
www.portugalresident.com/madeleine-birthday-brings-more-news
In that case I stand corrected.
But I cannot overlook the minor incorrections dear Luckman's journal has published: PJ has sanctioned nothing, the Portimão Public Ministry-PM did. And the decision for Met to use radar & dogs also rests on the PM & not on PJ.
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In that case I stand corrected.
But I cannot overlook the minor incorrections dear Luckman's journal has published: PJ has sanctioned nothing, the Portimão Public Ministry-PM did. And the decision for Met to use radar & dogs also rests on the PM & not on PJ.
I understand your point but is it not essential that the PJ also agree to cooperate?
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In any case, there is no reliable evidence there will be diggings performed anywhere. So far, all there is are attempts to identify possible sites where potential information may be obtained, by excavations if needed.
I may sound very sceptic, but I suspect no digging will actually be performed, although the PT authorities have given approval for such.
For me all this is just a PR operation, nothing else.
Why?
Because NSY is only going over what the initial investigation has already done. Apart from speculation on the Media, so far, nothing new has been found, IMO of course.
I think many cold cases have been progressed when the new investigation is allowed to investigate evidence without let or hindrance.
This can be seen from the arrest of a man by the new investigators in the case of Claudia Lawrence.
No body has been found but an arrest has been made because a new investigation looked at the evidence available with a fresh eye.
They said the new forensic examination of her house uncovered the fingerprints of people who have not yet come forward.
They also found the DNA profile of an unknown man on a cigarette butt in her Vauxhall Corsa.
Ms Lawrence's father Peter has led a five-year campaign to find out what happened to his daughter.
http://news.sky.com/story/1260580/claudia-lawrence-disappearance-man-arrested
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It was searched but not dug up. The PJ only got ground penetrating radar four years ago.
Who needs ground penetrating radar when dogs like Eddie can allegedly sniff out a corpse buried under concrete?
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Who needs ground penetrating radar when dogs like Eddie can allegedly sniff out a corpse buried under concrete?
If they can smell through concrete and roads, would they not smell the underground pipes carrying Waste disposal from restaurants, butchers etc, etc. I wonder where these channels/pipes ran too, from the ocean club?? Just a thought!
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IIRC "Verdade da Mentira" says (and I don't know whether its true) one day one person phones PJ requesting tests, later same day someoneelse phones cancelling request.
(Edited 24 May 2014)
Apologies not sure whether allegation is in book but is actually in an interview Amsterdam 09 May 2009
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html
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I have imported the following comments from the latest news thread because they are very relevant to the proposed digs. (excuse the pun)
Madeleine birthday brings more news
...Meanwhile, TV commentator and critic Eduardo Cintra Torres has criticised the Madeleine razzmatazz that seems to have been stirred up by Scotland Yard in the past week. Talking on CMTV, Torres claims that Madeleine cop DCI Andy Redwood needs a psychological evaluation. “I look at him, and I just think ‘this man wants to appear on TV’,” Torres told CMTV news anchor João Ferreira. “With so many children disappearing in England, did he choose the Madeleine case because he would appear on television? “Why are the Portuguese police being subservient to this mockery?” He added. “We need to ask, what exactly is going on? This is all just ridiculous. Just a way of showing off.” Torres’ contentions have been echoed elsewhere with critics suggesting the British police are trying to justify the millions spent so far by Operation Grange in the search for Madeleine’s alleged abductor. Others have suggested it is an election ploy of the British government in the run-up to the European elections. Whatever the motivation, Torres claims it is “shameful for the Portuguese state to allow the mediatisation of an investigation that belongs to the Portuguese and not to the English. “If we tried to do the same in England, would they allow it?” He asked. “Of course not!” By NATASHA DONN news@algarveresident.com
www.portugalresident.com/madeleine-birthday-brings-more-news
The Portuguese are becoming very critical of Scotland Yard, a view expressed also by Luz. I wonder is there a danger here of this investigation ending in farce?
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And just like that, the entire PJ investigation has been written off as pretense.
Regardless of the fact that the original investigation has been checked and rechecked by Operation Grange who, after four long years, have ended up digging 100m front 5a's front door....EXACTLY where the PJ left off.
Have they started digging yet?
I was under the impression that they were looking at digging
1) 260 metres away on the waste land in front of the Staff Quarters
2) also at the new car park behind the church which is about 400 metres away
3) and at the large beach which is about 470 metres to its closest bit
4) or if we only consider a quiet bit of beach that is not overlooked too badly, about 780 metres
But it is my uderstanding that they have to ground search first, then and only if something suspicious is found, start digging.
I am unable to identify any suitable digging place 100 metres away from 5A front door. Where would that be , my dear?
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... digging 100m from 5a's front door ...
I checked your measurement and yes very good, the closest point which is reported be included in the upcoming ground surveys (initially radar and dog) is indeed very close to exactly 100 metres away.
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I checked your measurement and yes very good, the closest point which is reported be included in the upcoming ground surveys (initially radar and cadaver dogs) is indeed very close to exactly 100 metres away.
And STILL it doesn't register with Team McCann, just how significant the dig is.....
Bizarre.
We've gone from having an abduction by Posh Spice/Hewlett/Euclides whoever, to a dig right outside the apartment.
That is a MASSIVE development.
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In 2007 aerial images looks like most of that site had zero to low vegetation cover with exception of NE corner where there was some bush / tree cover.
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In 2007 aerial images looks like most of that site had zero to low vegetation cover with exception of NE corner where there was some bush / tree cover.
You have to wonder if only torches were shined across it that night...
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I checked your measurement and yes very good, the closest point which is reported be included in the upcoming ground surveys (initially radar and dog) is indeed very close to exactly 100 metres away.
Assuming they are not looking for Maddie's body, but for items of clothing, and that Maddie was abducted... Why would the abductor bury any belongings of his victim almost on a doorstep of her parents flat?
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Assuming they are not looking for Maddie's body, but for items of clothing, and that Maddie was abducted... Why would the abductor bury any belongings of his victim almost on a doorstep of her parents flat?
This question has been puzzling me as well Martina
I just can't think of a senario in which an abductor would bury anything so close to the crime scene
I mean he made a clean getaway ... why on earth would he stop, or come back, to bury something ?
It just makes no sense and leads me to believe these digs have nothing at all to do with any abduction theory
Welcome to the forum by the way
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... I am unable to identify any suitable digging place 100 metres away from 5A ...
Item 1 on your list is a large area of land, a corner of which about 100m away.
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Is there any certainty as to where any digs are supposed to be taking place (if indeed digging has been confirmed), or has "ground activity" and permission to dig if needed led to media speculation as to where such digging will occur?
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Is there any certainty as to where any digs are supposed to be taking place (if indeed digging has been confirmed), or has "ground activity" and permission to dig if needed led to media speculation as to where such digging will occur?
If it were a case of getting permission to dig in the event of it becoming necessary some time in the future it would not explain that military helicopter hovering over the resort
Nor would it explain the choice of particular areas for excavation ... why would the police specify certain areas if there was not, as yet, any specific reason for doing so ?
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This question has been puzzling me as well Martina
I just can't think of a senario in which an abductor would bury anything so close to the crime scene
I mean he made a clean getaway ... why on earth would he stop, or come back, to bury something ?
That would be too risky, and, well, what could he achieve by this? By burying any items he wouldn't get any attention or press coverage, and it's not possible to leave any message to victim's family this way. And there are ten thousand less risky ways for an abductor to get rid of a potential evidence.
It just makes no sense and leads me to believe these digs have nothing at all to do with any abduction theory
That's what I thnk too. Whatever the SY want to find, they don't have any abdoctor theory on their mind right now.
Welcome to the forum by the way
Thank you, Icabodcrane :)
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Is there any certainty as to where any digs are supposed to be taking place (if indeed digging has been confirmed), or has "ground activity" and permission to dig if needed led to media speculation as to where such digging will occur?
The special photographs which were taken around Praia da Luz by the Portuguese Air Force last week will play a part in determining which areas are worthy of further investigation. The geo-radar and the dogs will then be deployed to narrow the search zone yet further. Add to this the utilities records of any trenches which were open or other excavations which were taking place on 3rd May 2007 and you will get an idea of how big a task this is.
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Measuring actual walking distance (not straight line) IMO the closest part, of the large area to be searched, is 150 metres walk from the bedroom.
(for comparision: the restaurant table is 75 metres walk from the bedroom).
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The special photographs which were taken around Praia da Luz by the Portuguese Air Force last week will play a part in determining which areas are worthy of further investigation...
Yes and I believe the photography would also have included imaging at near-infra-red, and ultraviolet, wavelengths.
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If it were a case of getting permission to dig in the event of it becoming necessary some time in the future it would not explain that military helicopter hovering over the resort
Nor would it explain the choice of particular areas for excavation ... why would the police specify certain areas if there was not, as yet, any specific reason for doing so ?
The helicopter would qualify as "ground activity" in a broad sense, wouldn't it? Wouldn't a rog about ground activity cover everything from aerial recon to potential digging?
On the second point, it's not clear to me whether any specific areas are anything more than media speculation. It doesn't take much imagination to think that an area of wasteland might be a potential site.
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I hope the dig does go ahead...the sooner the better
Agreed. IMO especially the north corner closest to block 4 carpark as it was the only part with good tree/bush cover preventing being seen from overlooking buildings. It is a combination of proximity, and concealment from view, applicable whatever scenario one happens to consider IMO.
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The UK expert helicopter survey in July 2007 did not select the plot west of block 4 for ground survey.
Instead it selected other plots further away, north of Rua Ramalhete.
IMO because the selections then were biased by an assumption that the concealer went east/northeast.
No such assumption now.
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The UK expert helicopter survey in July 2007 did not select the plot west of block 4 for ground survey.
Instead it selected other plots further away, north of Rua Ramalhete.
IMO because the selections then were biased by an assumption that the concealer went east/northeast.
No such assumption now.
So where is all the digging not happened yet then? Are SY still in PDL? I have kind of given up with the case to be honest as nothing really happening just tripe in the papers.
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Just heard on the BBC news, the next major stage in the investigation is about to start.
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Just heard on the BBC news, the next major stage in the investigation is about to start.
'Within weeks' I believe is the phrasing being used.
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The Assistant Commissioner has confirmed relationship with colleagues in Portugal is good, they are working together well, and Kate and Gerry are being updated regularly. Statement on the Met website.
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Yes agreed getting those keys to the church fascinates me and that's why I would search there first (also Smithman was heading towards it).
It seems Amaral ruled out the church as it didn't have a freezer...
Was anything done about the church where the McCanns spent so much time and to which they had the key? (identified reader)
There were never any motives to question the Catholic church. There is no indice that points towards the child being there, at least up to the moment when she was transported in the car. Even because there are no freezers there, or cold spots that would allow for the body to be kept at that location.
An interview in three parts with Gonçalo Amaral, 03/04 August 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html
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It seems Amaral ruled out the church as it didn't have a freezer...
Was anything done about the church where the McCanns spent so much time and to which they had the key? (identified reader)
There were never any motives to question the Catholic church. There is no indice that points towards the child being there, at least up to the moment when she was transported in the car. Even because there are no freezers there, or cold spots that would allow for the body to be kept at that location.
An interview in three parts with Gonçalo Amaral, 03/04 August 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html
Thanks for the info but I don't think Madeleine was inside the church. How could Smithman get in if it's locked. Not to mention the smell. The McCanns didn't get the keys until TUE 7 MAY but they may find some clues near to the church. If she was hidden and later retrieved it was near to the church.
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Thanks for the info but I don't think Madeleine was inside the church. How could Smithman get in if it's locked. Not to mention the smell. The McCanns didn't get the keys until TUE 7 MAY but they may find some clues near to the church.
You're welcome, but I'm a bit confused.
You'd said: "Yes agreed getting those keys to the church fascinates me and that's why I would search there first (also Smithman was heading towards it)."
Have you changed your mind on that?
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The Portuguese like the Spanish very often intern the remains of the departed in an above ground crypt. I wonder if there is such a facility in Praia da Luz and more importantly, was it searched?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbds17rQ2bBXaglVpmrXjPnOdDiisBqh-w2U0t2L9muFCI_p-ZnCo0El7_)
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The Portuguese like the Spanish very often intern the remains of the departed in an above ground crypt. I wonder if there is such a facility in Praia da Luz and more importantly, was it searched? ...
Here is PDL cemetery (ETA two layers of above ground crypts at rear)
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.087552,-8.735493&spn=0.004622,0.009645&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.08749,-8.735605&panoid=liTvY75oGysnrQQiAA6gyA&cbp=12,313.12,,2,2.5
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It seems Amaral ruled out the church as it didn't have a freezer...
... and it seems Scotland Yard havn't
This is private land ( a recently developed car park ) and digging it up will be costly
I don't believe Scotland Yard would have taken that step on a random whim ... there is surely a specific reason for digging there
Perhaps the police are aware of a telephone call made from that particular location ?
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CMTV in Lisbon have confirmed that the digs are to commence in June.
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Regardless of recent reports Gonçalo Amaral was very clear about mobile phone activity around the Ocean Club on the night that Madeleine disappeared. The only calls which caused suspicion were those made by Robert Murat.
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I have this feeling of deja vu - all over again @)(++(*
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CMTV in Lisbon have confirmed that the digs are to commence in June.
That's interesting... where did you read that?
So the Met has had to explain that there won't be any operational updates so as not to upset the PJ who don't want to deal with a media circus (fair enough), but someone's updating CMTV?
How is that supposed to work?
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Regardless of recent reports Gonçalo Amaral was very clear about mobile phone activity around the Ocean Club on the night that Madeleine disappeared. The only calls which caused suspicion were those made by Robert Murat.
If that's the case, why have the Met spent considerable time on phone activity?
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If that's the case, why have the Met spent considerable time on phone activity?
Perhaps they thought they could get a quick solution with their superior technology.
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Perhaps they thought they could get a quick solution with their superior technology.
Part of the issue was trying to identify who the numbers belonged to, wasn't it? If there weren't any in the vicinity aside from Murat, then there wouldn't have been the need, surely?
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Regardless of recent reports Gonçalo Amaral was very clear about mobile phone activity around the Ocean Club on the night that Madeleine disappeared. The only calls which caused suspicion were those made by Robert Murat.
I don't take a lot of notice about what amaral says...he was sacked from the case and all his conclusions were contradicted in the Portuguese archiving report
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Part of the issue was trying to identify who the numbers belonged to, wasn't it? If there weren't any in the vicinity aside from Murat, then there wouldn't have been the need, surely?
Judging by the phone records that have been published, there would seem to have been quite a few, but none seem to have led anywhere - as far as we know.
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Judging by the phone records that have been published, there would seem to have been quite a few, but none seem to have led anywhere - as far as we know.
they haven't led anywhere because SY have been refused permission to follow up their information from what I can see
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If that's the case, why have the Met spent considerable time on phone activity?
I believe the answer to that is that the Portuguese mobile telephony investigations concentrated on the mast in the immediate area of Ocean Club Blocks 4/5 and since Murat lived nearby it was inevitable that his phone would ping that mast. Scotland Yard on the other hand appear to have cast their net much wider and consequently brought several others into the frame.
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I don't take a lot of notice about what amaral says...he was sacked from the case and all his conclusions were contradicted in the Portuguese archiving report
Of course you don't and we know why.
He was sacked after he objected to interference in the case.
The archiving process occurred since the case was going nowhere, due to lack of evidence.
It does not mean however, that he was wrong in saying Madeleine probably died in the apartment.
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Does the area where the digs are taking place, rule out the smith sighting
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Does the area where the digs are taking place, rule out the smith sighting
The press-reported list of search areas includes the large site (west of Rua 1 Maio) which is between the apartment and the Smith sighting.
If Smithman was the perp he could end up at that site only if he reversed direction after being seen by the 9 witnesses, which of course would be a clever move.
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The press-reported list of search areas includes the large site (west of Rua 1 Maio) which is between the apartment and the Smith sighting.
If Smithman was the perp he could end up at that site only if he reversed direction after being seen by the 9 witnesses, which of course would be a clever move.
Or perhaps the police have reason to believe he discarded something 'en-route'
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The press-reported list of search areas includes the large site (west of Rua 1 Maio) which is between the apartment and the Smith sighting.
If Smithman was the perp he could end up at that site only if he reversed direction after being seen by the 9 witnesses, which of course would be a clever move.
If they believe Smithman moved her an hour before he was seen only 250 metres away then they believe she was hidden there. If Madeleine didn't move the door before 9 according to Gerry then Smithman had to have done it 8(0(* I believe they've been tracking his movements for the new digs. So that would mean Smithman was hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked. I'm surprised Gerry didn't see Smithman >@@(*&)
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Gerry didn't see Smithman despite being in the apartment urinating when Madeleine was already deceased.
If you believe that you believe....all of it.
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Gerry didn't see Smithman despite being in the apartment urinating when Madeleine was already deceased.
If you believe that you believe....all of it.
Gerry should've checked behind the mirror.
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Or perhaps the police have reason to believe he discarded something 'en-route'
If someone wanted to discard an ancillary material item (such as a weapon as some press reports imagine) he would simply throw it over the panel fence into the north part of that that big upcoming search area where it would fall in vegetation.
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The dig is expected to start Monday, according to the Guardian.
Interesting times....
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/28/madeleine-mccann-portugal-uk-police-search-next-week
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McCanns still don't believe Madeleine is dead. And SY.. even if they had to dig it doesn't mean their only theory is that Madeleine is dead. Maybe just one of the theories they have to investigate further.
BTW these digs should have been done back in 2007..
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McCanns still don't believe Madeleine is dead. And SY.. even if they had to dig it doesn't mean their only theory is that Madeleine is dead. Maybe just one of the theories they have to investigate further.
BTW these digs should have been done back in 2007..
I don't think the Metropolitan Police are digging up Praia de Luz randomly
There must be some intelligence that has led them to these particular sites ... if there were not, then the Portuguese Judge would surely have disallowed the digs
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McCanns still don't believe Madeleine is dead. And SY.. even if they had to dig it doesn't mean their only theory is that Madeleine is dead. Maybe just one of the theories they have to investigate further.
No police force on this world would spend loads of money and go through a hassle of obtaining the permits to dig a private land only to check a theory.
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No police force on this world would spend loads of money and go through a hassle of obtaining the permits to dig a private land only to check a theory.
A police force usually has an planned task... this this this and this has to be done in every investigation. Digging of disturbed ground is a part of it.. system of elimination..
It is like when you go to the doctors. To establish what is wrong with you they first check you for the worst test.. and by doing this they eliminate certain suspicions.
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A police force usually has an planned task... this this this and this has to be done in every investigation. Digging of disturbed ground is a part of it.. system of elimination..
Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Especially not when the heavy equipment is required, the plot is private and lies in a foreign country. It's costly and no court will give a permission for that without some evidence shoving the necessity to dig just there.
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Even if all SY's working theories are incorrect, their sensible action of deploying ground radar and cadaver dog at the land literally just over the road (R 1 Maio) and only 100 metres from the apartment may still find something.
From the apartment it is the closest unused hidden land.
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Metropolitan police assistant commissioner Mark Rowley said earlier this month that the operation in Praia da Luz did not amount to a significant breakthrough – describing it as the "routine slog" of an ongoing investigation. He said there were many fruitful lines of inquiry being explored but conceded: "We may go through every line of inquiry and all of them draw a blank."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/28/madeleine-mccann-portugal-uk-police-search-next-week
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Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Especially not when the heavy equipment is required, the plot is private and lies in a foreign country. It's costly and no court will give a permission for that without some evidence shoving the necessity to dig just there.
Why not? Comprehensive forensic checks should have been done in the first place as a ground-clearing exercise, shouldn't they?
Whatever is found or not found, it may advance the investigation by an inch, although seven years later may be a bit late.
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Why not? Comprehensive forensic checks should have been done in the first place as a ground-clearing exercise, shouldn't they?
Whatever is found or not found, it may advance the investigation by an inch, although seven years later may be a bit late.
I can't see the Portuguese Court agreeing to SY's wishes without there being strong supportive evidence to justify such a dig.
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I can't see the Portuguese Court agreeing to SY's wishes without there being strong supportive evidence to justify such a dig.
What kind of evidence?
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What kind of evidence?
Reliable information pointing to where things of interest might be buried ?
Who knows, but quite sure SY will have needed strong justification to persuade the Court. At least one of the sites seems to be still under consideration.
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Reliable information pointing to where things of interest might be buried ?
Who knows, but quite sure SY will have needed strong justification to persuade the Court. At least one of the sites seems to be still under consideration.
So, no real idea then. More of a 'gut feeling'.
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So, no real idea then. More of a 'gut feeling'.
I don't do 'gut feelings'
It is clear from what the Portuguese Courts appear to have refused in the past, that they require good justification for granting SY requests.
If you don't wish to accept that, then fine - no problem to me.
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The dig is expected to start Monday, according to the Guardian.
Interesting times....
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/28/madeleine-mccann-portugal-uk-police-search-next-week
It's not a 'dig'. It's entirely possible that no digging takes place at all.
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Reliable information pointing to where things of interest might be buried ?
Who knows, but quite sure SY will have needed strong justification to persuade the Court. At least one of the sites seems to be still under consideration.
from what I have read this is basic routine police work that may yield nothing and that SY do not have specific information that something may be found.
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from what I have read this is basic routine police work that may yield nothing and that SY do not have specific information that something may be found.
Indeed it may not, but it will be interesting to see what emerges.
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It's not a 'dig'. It's entirely possible that no digging takes place at all.
I wouldn't bank on it .
They aren't going to take all their toys out there and then not play with them.
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Indeed it may not, but it will be interesting to see what emerges.
very interesting
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I can't see the Portuguese Court agreeing to SY's wishes without there being strong supportive evidence to justify such a dig.
A dig occurred in the vicinity of where Ben disappeared. Was there any specific evidence in that case, or was it a ground-clearing exercise that should, in theory, have taken place at the beginning?
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A dig occurred in the vicinity of where Ben disappeared. Was there any specific evidence in that case, or was it a ground-clearing exercise that should, in theory, have taken place at the beginning?
Different country, different legal rules. There must have been something to persuade the Greek authorities to dig.
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Different country, different legal rules. There must have been something to persuade the Greek authorities to dig.
Why wouldn't they have done so when he hadn't been found alive shortly after he disappeared? A lack of means, experience?
18 Oct 2012
South Yorkshire Police confirmed that it is leading a team of specialist search advisers, including a forensic archaeologist and sniffer dogs, who have travelled to Kos to look for Ben.
The force said in a statement: "Greek police are pursuing a line of enquiry centred on the grounds of the property from which Ben disappeared in 1991 aged 21 months.
"Beginning tomorrow work will begin to examine the ground, including using geophysical ground examination equipment, to determine whether any area should be dug."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9616676/Ben-Needham-Police-to-dig-up-mound-for-body-of-missing-toddler.html
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Why wouldn't they have done so when he hadn't been found alive shortly after he disappeared? A lack of means, experience?
18 Oct 2012
South Yorkshire Police confirmed that it is leading a team of specialist search advisers, including a forensic archaeologist and sniffer dogs, who have travelled to Kos to look for Ben.
The force said in a statement: "Greek police are pursuing a line of enquiry centred on the grounds of the property from which Ben disappeared in 1991 aged 21 months.
"Beginning tomorrow work will begin to examine the ground, including using geophysical ground examination equipment, to determine whether any area should be dug."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9616676/Ben-Needham-Police-to-dig-up-mound-for-body-of-missing-toddler.html
So, basically, exactly the same action that was taken by a UK police force in the Needham case is now being undertaken by a UK police for ice in this case. Puts it into perspective a bit.
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So, basically, exactly the same action that was taken by a UK police force in the Needham case is now being undertaken by a UK police for ice in this case. Puts it into perspective a bit.
Does it?
Do you have problem with the 'Big Dig' ?
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Does it?
Do you have problem with the 'Big Dig' ?
I don't have a problem with the Met conducting a thorough examination of PDL. Far from it, this work should have been undertaken seven years ago.
Unfortunately, whilst I hold out hope of a happy ending to this story, I think it's most likely that not only is she dead, but that she died the night she disappeared and her remains are either in PDL or within a few miles. I hope I am wrong, but if I am right then I sincerely hope her remains are found so that her poor parents can finally get the closure they desperately need.
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Does it?
Do you have problem with the 'Big Dig' ?
I don't.
Unless there is specific intelligence, it would seem to be a perfectly normal ground-clearing exercise that should have happened 7 years ago, shouldn't it?
Harrison and Grime followed the PJ lead, on a short exercise, which was anything related to the T9 and Murat. Whether that old ground will be covered again, plus other possibilities is anyone's guess.
Madeleine deserves to be found, whatever has happened to her. As do all missing people.
With 18 incidents of varying severity, sweeping all this under the carpet won't help the Algarve tourism industry in the long term.
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Has anyone identified this waste ground yet adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril because the only such area is quite a bit west of the town centre and in the opposite direction to where Smithman was headed?
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Has anyone identified this waste ground yet adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril because the only such area is quite a bit west of the town centre and in the opposite direction to where Smithman was headed?
This sis something I have already suggested...the dig rules out smithman
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I can't see the Portuguese Court agreeing to SY's wishes without there being strong supportive evidence to justify such a dig.
Yer. A Sexual Predator. And The Portuguese Judiciary know all about that.
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Yer. A Sexual Predator. And The Portuguese Judiciary know all about that.
Maybe, but quite possibly something else. We might learn what, in time.
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If The Portuguese Judiciary know all about the Sexual Predator, which they must do, then it isn't rocket science to think that he might have been involved.
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If The Portuguese Judiciary know all about the Sexual Predator, which they must do, then it isn't rocket science to think that he might have been involved.
But, equally, might not. I don't think we have enough information to make any judgement, however attractive it might be to do so.
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This sis something I have already suggested...the dig rules out smithman
@)(++(*
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This sis something I have already suggested...the dig rules out smithman
If it is the bit of ground I think it is then it is a huge area. I will post a photo of it.
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But, equally, might not. I don't think we have enough information to make any judgement, however attractive it might be to do so.
But you appear to be doing so.
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@)(++(*
This funny, is it? This is why I despair.
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But you appear to be doing so.
I don't think I've made any pre-judgement. I'm happy wait and see what transpires.
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This funny, is it? This is why I despair.
Davel being completely wrong when he thinks he never is. Yes that is funny.
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Naughty @)(++(*
But not funny.
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But not funny.
Really? Perhaps you have no sense of humour.
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If The Portuguese Judiciary know all about the Sexual Predator, which they must do, then it isn't rocket science to think that he might have been involved.
Or of course, it's a complete load of rollocks.
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Really? Perhaps you have no sense of humour.
Not on this occasion. No, I don't.
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Sadie has mentioned that the digging in Praia de Luz is taking place in order 'rule things out'
I have asked before, and no-one has answered, what, exactly, will these these digs 'rule out' ?
My question is not just to Sadie, but to all members
If the digs turn up nothing, what possibility will have been ruled out other than the fact that the body wasn't buried in those particular locations ?
I mean, if the Met think there is a possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment and her body subsequently buried ( and they must think that is a possibility or these digs wouldn't be happening at all ) then what difference will it make if the body is not found in the locations chosen for inspection ?
The Met can't say "Well we thought Madeleine might have died in the apartment but because we havn't found her body in the places we looked we no longer think that is the case"
That just doesn't follow
NOT finding a body won't eliminate the possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment ... it won't rule out anything except that she wasn't buried in the spots dug up
So to those who think the Met are merely 'ruling things out' by digging up the resort, what is it that you think will be 'ruled out' and how will it advance the investigation ?
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Sadie has mentioned that the digging in Praia de Luz is taking place in order 'rule things out'
I have asked before, and no-one has answered, what, exactly, will these these digs 'rule out' ?
My question is not just to Sadie, but to all members
If the digs turn up nothing, what possibility will have been ruled out other than the fact that the body wasn't buried in those particular locations ?
I mean, if the Met think there is a possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment and her body subsequently buried ( and they must think that is a possibility or these digs wouldn't be happening at all ) then what difference will it make if the body is not found in the locations chosen for inspection ?
The Met can't say "Well we thought Madeleine might have died in the apartment but because we havn't found her body in the places we looked we no longer think that is the case"
That just doesn't follow
NOT finding a body won't eliminate the possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment ... it won't rule out anything except that she wasn't buried in the spots dug up
So to those who think the Met are merely 'ruling things out' by digging up the resort, what is it that you think will be 'ruled out' and how will it advance the investigation ?
You can't answer that question without knowing what intelligence they might have gathererd to lead them to believe she might be buried in PdL.
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Sadie has mentioned that the digging in Praia de Luz is taking place in order 'rule things out'
I have asked before, and no-one has answered, what, exactly, will these these digs 'rule out' ?
My question is not just to Sadie, but to all members
If the digs turn up nothing, what possibility will have been ruled out other than the fact that the body wasn't buried in those particular locations ?
I mean, if the Met think there is a possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment and her body subsequently buried ( and they must think that is a possibility or these digs wouldn't be happening at all ) then what difference will it make if the body is not found in the locations chosen for inspection ?
The Met can't say "Well we thought Madeleine might have died in the apartment but because we havn't found her body in the places we looked we no longer think that is the case"
That just doesn't follow
NOT finding a body won't eliminate the possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment ... it won't rule out anything except that she wasn't buried in the spots dug up
So to those who think the Met are merely 'ruling things out' by digging up the resort, what is it that you think will be 'ruled out' and how will it advance the investigation ?
Erm. It won't. Now there's a turn up. Madeleine might not be dead.
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Large tract of waste ground adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril which could be searched next week according to latest Press reports.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Sadie has mentioned that the digging in Praia de Luz is taking place in order 'rule things out'
I have asked before, and no-one has answered, what, exactly, will these these digs 'rule out' ?
My question is not just to Sadie, but to all members
If the digs turn up nothing, what possibility will have been ruled out other than the fact that the body wasn't buried in those particular locations ?
I mean, if the Met think there is a possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment and her body subsequently buried ( and they must think that is a possibility or these digs wouldn't be happening at all ) then what difference will it make if the body is not found in the locations chosen for inspection ?
The Met can't say "Well we thought Madeleine might have died in the apartment but because we havn't found her body in the places we looked we no longer think that is the case"
That just doesn't follow
NOT finding a body won't eliminate the possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment ... it won't rule out anything except that she wasn't buried in the spots dug up
So to those who think the Met are merely 'ruling things out' by digging up the resort, what is it that you think will be 'ruled out' and how will it advance the investigation ?
Have you thought, Icabod,
- That there might have been rumours about places?
- That there might have been a slight possibility that Madeleine had been hidden in road works that were filled in the following day.
- That their radar searching equipment may have pinpointed some things tha might have been a body (an animal, or anything)
And that they are ruling all the possibilities out before going for the main peeps?
I wonder why Murat put a stop on the Police digging his drive up? Now that could present problems.
But I feel sure that if the police radar has identified anything and they think there is anything to worry about .... and if there is reasonable doubt, then I feel sure that they will be able to dig it up.
The question is, 'Why did Murat try and stop it being dug up?' Now, I find thta suspicious tbh.
Waht is he hiding? Is he helping someone? Is he causing obfuscation?
What? why?
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Have you thought, Icabod, that there might have been rumours about places?
That there might have been a slight possibility that Madeleine had been hidden in road works that were filled in the following day.
That their radar searching equipment may have pinpointed some things tha might have been a body (an animal, or anything)
And that they are ruling all the possibilities out before going for the main peeps?
I wonder why Murat put a stop on the Police digging his drive up? Now that could present problems.
But I feel sure that the police radar has identified if there is anything to worry about .... and if there is reasonable doubt, then I feel sure that they will be able to dig it up.
The question is, 'Why did Murat try and stop it being dug up?' Now, I find thta suspicious tbh.
Waht is he hiding? Is he helping someone? Is he causing obfuscation?
What? why?
There has to be a real reason, cos he could have had a new drive for free.
So you think Scotland Yard have brought in military helicopters and JCB's so they can rule out 'rumours' ?
Thanks for answering the question anyway
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So you think Scotland Yard have brought in military helicopters and JCB's so they can rule out 'rumours' ?
Thanks for answering the question anyway
What do you think the digs around Ben Needham's grandparents house were based on? Did the digs there help to rule anything out? Did you assume that once they were announced as going ahead that it was because the police were pretty sure he was buried there?
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What do you think the digs around Ben Needham's grandparents house were based on? Did the digs there help to rule anything out? Did you assume that once they were announced as going ahead that it was because the police were pretty sure he was buried there?
Answer the question.
We aren't talking about Ben Needham.
We are talking about a "SUBSTANTIAL PHASE" of the investigation.
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What do you think the digs around Ben Needham's grandparents house were based on? Did the digs there help to rule anything out? Did you assume that once they were announced as going ahead that it was because the police were pretty sure he was buried there?
tut tut ... more attempts at distraction
Let's talk about these digs
What are the Met looking for ? and how does a murdering burglar fit into the scenario ?
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It's not a 'dig'. It's entirely possible that no digging takes place at all.
Correio da Manhã 28 May 2014:
"... English police ... already arranging for the rental of backhoes ..."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
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Have you thought, Icabod,
- That there might have been rumours about places?
- That there might have been a slight possibility that Madeleine had been hidden in road works that were filled in the following day.
- That their radar searching equipment may have pinpointed some things tha might have been a body (an animal, or anything)
And that they are ruling all the possibilities out before going for the main peeps?
I wonder why Murat put a stop on the Police digging his drive up? Now that could present problems.
But I feel sure that if the police radar has identified anything and they think there is anything to worry about .... and if there is reasonable doubt, then I feel sure that they will be able to dig it up.
The question is, 'Why did Murat try and stop it being dug up?' Now, I find thta suspicious tbh.
Waht is he hiding? Is he helping someone? Is he causing obfuscation?
What? why?
In my opinion the speculation that strangers to a locale would be able to dispose of a body without trace is ridiculous and if the situation were not so serious hysterically funny .
If a body were to be secreted it is logical to place it in a location which has already been thoroughly searched ~ where vegetation has been cut back ~ where cellars under the house have been inspected ~ where CSI and EVRDs have searched ~ where ground radar has been used.
Only a local with unlimited access to the site and the time and opportunity could do that.
Like Sadie, I too find the situation regarding Mr Murat’s driveway odd and would like it to be dug up for elimination purposes sooner rather than later.
However I do not believe Madeleine is interred there nor do I believe she was interred anywhere else in Priai Da Luz.
I think she was taken out of the area immediately after her abduction.
I think Mr Murat is indeed causing obfuscation, perhaps one day we will find out the reason why.
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... waste ground adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril ...
Yes IMO your map is correct John.
Photographic views at https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.085858,-8.735547&spn=0.002396,0.009871&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.085854,-8.735548&panoid=LDFu033KnEA9fJvb8Hkz2Q&cbp=12,119.51,,0,14.38
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Hone on the correct peeps? You don't go to these lengths on a whim you do it if you know who the prime suspect is and need proof to bring those responsible to justice. These digs are to find clues to see where Madeleine was hidden on 3 MAY. The prime suspect was seen carrying her away so she was taken somewhere near by. So they are hoping to find clues to where and the cadaver dogs are back!
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Well it starts on Monday, so soon we will see.
I remind you all, once again, the digs are a "substantial phase" meaning - THEY EXPECT TO FIND SOMETHING.
That is irrefutable, no matter how many insults you all throw, no matter how much irrationality you shriek.
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Large tract of waste ground adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril which could be searched next week according to latest Press reports.
Yes IMO your map is correct John.
Photographic views at https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Praia+da+Luz,+Portugal&hl=en&ll=37.085858,-8.735547&spn=0.002396,0.009871&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&geocode=FcXYNQIda716_w&hnear=Praia+da+Luz&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.085854,-8.735548&panoid=LDFu033KnEA9fJvb8Hkz2Q&cbp=12,119.51,,0,14.38
Thanks John & Pegasus. That's a big location. Smithman wasn't going up Rua 25 de Abril so was this mobile tracking to that location? I was talking about it yesterday searching in the dark.
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Thanks John & Pegasus. That's a big location. Smithman wasn't going up Rua 25 de Abril so was this mobile tracking to that location?
Thanks for the map. Kind of creepy to think Madeleine might be there still. It's bigger than I imagined, too.
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Large tract of waste ground adjacent to Rua 25 de Abril which could be searched next week according to latest Press reports.
Aw John
Good try, but I find thta NOT very convincing.
1) That must be the main dog walking place in PdL. Ant bodies there would soon be found because of that I would nave thought
2) The ground cover looks a bit hard to dig with all that grass growing out of it. A decent spade would be needed and the siol when dug would have to be placed somewhere [on the grass?]. Dont see how a man could leave a grave that didn't show in the circumstances
3) Smithman was not walking west up Rua 25 Abril and that is the direct route to this mound. He was walking East or mauybe south. With South it is possible but around the detour. What a hell of a walk !
I still think that Madeleine was taken out to sea in a boat which rendevouzed out at sea, with a bigger boat. Maybe just over the horizon. Starting at that little beach/ rocky cove.
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Aw John
Good try, but I find thta NOT very convincing.
1) That must be the main dog walking place in PdL. Ant bodies there would soon be found because of that I would nave thought
2) The ground cover looks a bit hard to dig with all that grass growing out of it. A decent spade would be needed and the siol when dug would have to be placed somewhere [on the grass?]. Dont see how a man could leave a grave that didn't show in the circumstances
3) Smithman was not walking west up Rua 25 Abril and that is the direct route to this mound. He was walking East or mauybe south. With South it is possible but around the detour. What a hell of a walk !
I still think that Madeleine was taken out to sea in a boat which rendevouzed out at sea, with a bigger boat. Maybe just over the horizon. Starting at that little beach/ rocky cove.
Well, you'll concede that the Metropolitan police know rather more than you do, won't you ?
... and they clearly don't think Madeleine was taken out to sea on a boat
They wouldn't be wasting their time digging up PDL looking for her body if they did
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I don't go with the boat transfer theory because it was too dangerous in the Atlantic swell that night.
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If you are a perp and 9 witnesses just saw you going south (or possibly east), what do you do immediately they are gone?
Just guessing that is possibly SY's thinking?
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...That must be the main dog walking place in PdL...
I doubt that SY if they consider it a possible location, would say oh no people walk dogs there so there can be nothing there.
However in a moment of insight you raise a very good point.
Another plot of land reported as being on the search list is closer more concealed and has no dog walkers.
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I doubt that SY if they consider it a possible location, would say oh no people walk dogs there so there can be nothing there.
However in a moment of insight you raise a very good point.
Another plot of land reported as being on the search list is closer more concealed and has no dog walkers.
That wouldn't just happen to be the large garden beside where Aoife nearly bumped into the carrier?
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I, for one, welcome the digs. Let's get them done and that area of speculation ruled out.
I hope they dig up Murats drive. So stop all the speculation there.
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I, for one, welcome the digs. Let's get them done and that area of speculation ruled out.
I hope they dig up Murats drive. So stop all the speculation there.
So you believe Mr. Birch's theories ?
Now I thought he'd been charged by the Portuguese authorities.
Now in terms of simple logic sadie, you don't dig unless you expect to find something, wouldn't you say ?
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I thought Murat's drive, or rather his mother's, had been thoroughly checked out years ago.
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I thought Murat's drive, or rather his mother's, had been thoroughly checked out years ago.
So i heard, but for some it remains a target.
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So you believe Mr. Birch's theories ?
Now I thought he'd been charged by the Portuguese authorities.
Now in terms of simple logic sadie, you don't dig unless you expect to find something, wouldn't you say ?
No, I neither believe nor disbelieve Birch's theories. No doubt SY, with a helicopter and ground penetrating radra, now know whether Madeleine is buried there.
But to shut all the gossip/ speculatioon up, it would be good if they dug there.
They have the power, I feel sure, to over-ride Murats reported refusal to allow digging .
If they dont dig, after the radar then that means they are happy that there is no body there
But I still prefer them to dig, cos if they dont there will still be some doubting Thomases going on and on and on ad infinitum.
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No, I neither believe nor disbelieve Birch's theories. No doubt SY, with a helicopter and ground penetrating radra, now know whether Madeleine is buried there.
But to shut all the gossip/ speculatioon up, it would be good if they dug there.
They have the power, I feel sure, to over-ride Murats reported refusal to allow digging .
If they dont dig, after the radar then that means they are happy that there is no body there
But I still prefer them to dig, cos if they dont there will still be some doubting Thomases going on and on and on ad infinitum.
Indeed, I fear you will.
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I'm surprised Gilet isn't here putting us all right on things.
I like her, she's my favourite.
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I'm surprised Gilet isn't here putting us all right on things.
I like her, she's my favourite.
She is brilliant.
Guess she has got fed up with all the wums.
Come back gilet
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I'm surprised Gilet isn't here putting us all right on things.
I like her, she's my favourite.
I am gutted. I thought I was your favourite.
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Accepting a request for digging doesn't break anyone's rights or make anyone a suspect. It's a lot easier to get permission to dig and it requires a lot less evidence.
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Accepting a request for digging doesn't break anyone's rights or make anyone a suspect. It's a lot easier to get permission to dig and it requires a lot less evidence.
Excellent. Lets hope it can significantly advance the investigation
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Excellent. Lets hope it can significantly advance the investigation
i really hope it does
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i really hope it does
Me too, though I don't hold out a lot of hope.
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No, I neither believe nor disbelieve Birch's theories. No doubt SY, with a helicopter and ground penetrating radra, now know whether Madeleine is buried there.
But to shut all the gossip/ speculatioon up, it would be good if they dug there.
They have the power, I feel sure, to over-ride Murats reported refusal to allow digging .
If they dont dig, after the radar then that means they are happy that there is no body there
But I still prefer them to dig, cos if they dont there will still be some doubting Thomases going on and on and on ad infinitum.
Sadie dear, I thought you said she was living with some gypsies in the Rif Mountains in Morocco?
ETA Along with Joana???
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Sadie dear, I thought you said she was living with some gypsies in the Rif Mountains in Morocco?
ETA Along with Joana???
...and Mustafa Leak, no doubt ?
8)--))
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I would expect that, though there will always be some die-hards.
My great concern is that nothing of any value comes out of this. A body will bring some degree of closure, whereas no sign of a body , (or relevant artifacts)will add nothing to what is already known.
I agree
If these digs turn up nothing of value then they will not have advanced the investigation
Yet a 'source close to the McCanns' said ;
"Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for a body.They are doing searches as much to rule scenarios out as much as to rule them in"
What does that actually mean though ?
What possible scenarios could be 'ruled out' if the digs are fruitless ?
Anyone got a suggestion of a 'scenario' that could, unequivocally, be ruled out if these digs turn up nothing ?
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I agree
If these digs turn up nothing of value then they will not have advanced the investigation
Yet a 'source close to the McCanns' said ;
"Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for a body.They are doing searches as much to rule scenarios out as much as to rule them in"
What does that actually mean though ?
What possible scenarios could be 'ruled out' if the digs are fruitless ?
Anyone got a suggestion of a 'scenario' that could, unequivocally, be ruled out if these digs turn up nothing ?
I think it's quite straightforward.
They are covering ground that ought to have been covered by the shelved enquiry ...
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I agree
If these digs turn up nothing of value then they will not have advanced the investigation
Yet a 'source close to the McCanns' said ;
"Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for a body.They are doing searches as much to rule scenarios out as much as to rule them in"
What does that actually mean though ?
What possible scenarios could be 'ruled out' if the digs are fruitless ?
Anyone got a suggestion of a 'scenario' that could, unequivocally, be ruled out if these digs turn up nothing ?
They don't expect to find a body probably because they think it never stayed there so they're hoping to find clues of a body being hidden or once buried at one of these sites. Maybe on to WS and Anne's theory of bin to tip.
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I think it's quite straightforward.
They are covering ground that ought to have been covered by the shelved enquiry ...
But if the digs turn up nothing what 'scenario' will be ruled out ?
Or was the 'source close to the McCanns' talking bunkham ?
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They don't expect to find a body probably because they think it never stayed there so they're hoping to find clues of a body being hidden or once buried at one of these sites. Maybe on to WS and Anne's theory of bin to tip.
You think they are looking for the spot where a body was 'temporarily' hidden ?
Is that why they are bringing the cadaver dogs in do you think ?
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You think they are looking for the spot where a body was 'temporarily' hidden ?
Is that why they are bringing the cadaver dogs in do you think ?
Yes definitely. They are tracking Smithman and searching the areas where he could quickly hide a body.
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I think it's quite straightforward.
They are covering ground that ought to have been covered by the shelved enquiry ...
Seems logical to me as well. Isn't this normal practice that should have been done 7 years ago?
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So, back on topic
Carana said that the planned digs are just 'normal practice' that should have done seven years ago
That suggests that the locations where the digs are planned were selected randomly and not based on any particular intelligence
Does anyone agree with that ?
Does anyone else think the Portuguese police should have been randomly digging up PDL seven years ago ?
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So, back on topic
Carana said that the planned digs are just 'normal practice' that should have done seven years ago
That suggests that the locations where the digs are planned were selected randomly and not based on any particular intelligence
Does anyone agree with that ?
Does anyone else think the Portuguese police should have been randomly digging up PDL seven years ago ?
I doubt they were selected randomly. Randomly would indicate that no thought whatsoever had been given to where to dig and might have included the swimming pool area, the local mini market, and the police station back yard. I should think that Scotland Yard have used a modicum of intelligence when deciding where an abductor might have hidden evidence and/ or a body, don't you?
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So, back on topic
Carana said that the planned digs are just 'normal practice' that should have done seven years ago
That suggests that the locations where the digs are planned were selected randomly and not based on any particular intelligence
Does anyone agree with that ?
Does anyone else think the Portuguese police should have been randomly digging up PDL seven years ago ?
Maybe we should move to the dig thread?
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I doubt they were selected randomly. Randomly would indicate that no thought whatsoever had been given to where to dig and might have included the swimming pool area, the local mini market, and the police station back yard. I should think that Scotland Yard have used a modicum of intelligence when deciding where an abductor might have hidden evidence and/ or a body, don't you?
I would hope there was something more substancial behind the choice of these dig locations other than just Andy Redwood and his team strolling around PDL saying "ooh, look over there ... that looks like a good spot to bury a body"
wouldn't you ?
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So, back on topic
Carana said that the planned digs are just 'normal practice' that should have done seven years ago
That suggests that the locations where the digs are planned were selected randomly and not based on any particular intelligence
Does anyone agree with that ?
Does anyone else think the Portuguese police should have been randomly digging up PDL seven years ago ?
I think we would need to know what has led NSY and the PJ to where we are today and the reason for the proposed ground searches to make an informed comment.
That isn’t going to happen, so here goes.
I cannot believe Madeleine was buried within the environs of PDL unless in an area with no public access or access for scavengers.
At the time extensive searches were carried out by the police and volunteers in which police dogs were involved.
IMO the professional searchers would have been on the lookout specifically for areas of disturbed ground or places where a small child could have wandered to unseen and fallen.
Observers in the helicopter would have been searching and perhaps taking photos? for further study.
I do believe that the initial investigation concentrated their resources on Madeleine’s parents to the exclusion of many other possibilities. If she should be found buried in the location to be searched I think the scrutiny of the conduct of her case will be intense.
I echo Carana's sentiments in her kind thoughts for Madeleine's family, who must be going through Hell as the search for Madeleine progresses.
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I think we would need to know what has led NSY and the PJ to where we are today and the reason for the proposed ground searches to make an informed comment.
That isn’t going to happen, so here goes.
I cannot believe Madeleine was buried within the environs of PDL unless in an area with no public access or access for scavengers.
At the time extensive searches were carried out by the police and volunteers in which police dogs were involved.
IMO the professional searchers would have been on the lookout specifically for areas of disturbed ground or places where a small child could have wandered to unseen and fallen.
Observers in the helicopter would have been searching and perhaps taking photos? for further study.
I do believe that the initial investigation concentrated their resources on Madeleine’s parents to the exclusion of many other possibilities. If she should be found buried in the location to be searched I think the scrutiny of the conduct of her case will be intense.
I echo Carana's sentiments in her kind thoughts for Madeleine's family, who must be going through Hell as the search for Madeleine progresses.
They have been begging people to search for Madeleine since she disappeared.
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They have been begging people to search for Madeleine since she disappeared.
But for a live Madeleine not a dead one.
They have always been aware that she may be dead, but until they are shown proof - they will continue to search for her - just as Ben Needham's mum will carry on searching for a live Ben.
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Sure. But we don't know what intelligence Scotland Yard has gathered do we? And fretting about it on an internet forum isn't going to change that situation is it? But do carry on, if it amuses you.
I agree. I don't think it matters exactly why SY are digging, though I can't believe its totally random site section.
The important thing is that believe they are going to find something useful - otherwise they wouldn't be wasting time and money.
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if SY suspect that they may find maddies remains at one of these sites then that indicates they are ruling out the dog's evidence as there was an alert to the hire car
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if SY suspect that they may find maddies remains at one of these sites then that indicates they are ruling out the dog's evidence as there was an alert to the hire car
Not necessarily. Any finding in PDL (other than the body) could be due to an interim resting place.
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Not necessarily. Any finding in PDL (other than the body) could be due to an interim resting place.
necessarily...my posts specifically refers to finding Maddies remains...
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necessarily...my posts specifically refers to finding Maddies remains...
Still could have been moved by car to final site much later after disappearance.
At this stage I don't think one can make predictions. Nothing may be found at all.
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Still could have been moved by car to final site much later after disappearance.
If maddies remains are found during this dig near the apartment...where does the car come into it
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Still could have been moved by car to final site much later after disappearance.
At this stage I don't think one can make predictions. Nothing may be found at all.
I think we can discount the possibility that the McCanns brought the corpse back to PdL in the boot of the car to bury it in the wasteground, can't we...?!
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Still could have been moved by car to final site much later after disappearance.
At this stage I don't think one can make predictions. Nothing may be found at all.
Where lies the nuance of difference in meaning between guesses and predictions?
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If maddies remains are found during this dig near the apartment...where does the car come into it
As I've said, It could have been placed there much later, after all the searching was over.
The best place to hide something is in a place that has already been searched.
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I think we can discount the possibility that the McCanns brought the corpse back to PdL in the boot of the car to bury it in the wasteground, can't we...?!
Can we - why?
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As I've said, It could have been placed there much later, after all the searching was over.
The best place to hide something is in a place that has already been searched.
Its amazing how much you have to stretch reality to try and make the facts fit
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Can we - why?
because its a stupid idea?
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Its amazing how much you have to stretch reality to try and make the facts fit
What is reality?
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because its a stupid idea?
You are entitled to that view. Doesn't make you right.
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What is reality?
Its absurd to suggest bringing maddie back to bury near the apartment under full view of the press...absolutely absurd
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Can we - why?
Are you serious?!
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I doubt they were selected randomly. Randomly would indicate that no thought whatsoever had been given to where to dig and might have included the swimming pool area, the local mini market, and the police station back yard. I should think that Scotland Yard have used a modicum of intelligence when deciding where an abductor might have hidden evidence and/ or a body, don't you?
I agree. I would also like to remind you that excavations had been made in Ben Needham case, two years ago. The search was not based on a specific information but the area was not selected randomly. Police had use some intelligence when decided where to dig. Eventually nonthing was found.
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Somebody went to a lot of trouble to take Madeleine & foil the search. In the circumstances it is highly unlikely she has been buried anywhere near the original crime scene if she is indeed dead, unless someone planned for her body to be found at a later date.
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Somebody went to a lot of trouble to take Madeleine & foil the search. In the circumstances it is highly unlikely she has been buried anywhere near the original crime scene if she is indeed dead, unless someone planned for her body to be found at a later date.
I just love how Team McCann can just DISMISS anything that hints that Madeleine may never have left PDL.
The dogs are wrong, the DNA is wrong, now apparently OPERATION GRANGE IS WRONG TOO.
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I just love how Team McCann can just DISMISS anything that hints that Madeleine may never have left PDL.
The dogs are wrong, the DNA is wrong, now apparently OPERATION GRANGE IS WRONG TOO.
The Met are working through a number of scenarios, a process of elimination.
Perhaps they may find a few shovels along the way.
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The Met are working through a number of scenarios, a process of elimination.
Perhaps they may find a few shovels along the way.
Yet again I remind you that this has been described as a "substantial phase" of Operation Grange.
They aren't digging because they expect NOT to find anything.
Tra la la, SY just sent a gazillion ILOR's because they are on a wild goose chase, they have just crawled through Portugals labyrinthine legal processes to do so, called up the world's media to say "watch this guys. we are going to dig a big empty hole in PDL", then spent HOW MUCH bringing in military helicopters and other equipment, just for "elimination"?
Honestly. What planet are these people on?
Digging in PDL = SUBSTANTIAL PHASE OF A 4 YEAR OPERATION=not wasting time or money on side shows.
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Yet again I remind you that this has been described as a "substantial phase" of Operation Grange.
They aren't digging because they expect NOT to find anything.
Tra la la, SY just sent a gazillion ILOR's because they are on a wild goose chase, they have just crawled through Portugals labyrinthine legal processes to do so, called up the world's media to say "watch this guys. we are going to dig a big empty hole in PDL", then spent HOW MUCH bringing in military helicopters and other equipment, just for "elimination"?
Honestly. What planet are these people on?
Digging in PDL = SUBSTANTIAL PHASE OF A 4 YEAR OPERATION=not wasting time or money on side shows.
They will only dig if ground radar or the cadaver dogs give them reason to. You seem to be under the impression they will be digging willy-nilly.
273 ILOR's is hardly a statement which says " we believe she is buried in PDL".
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THEY HAVE TOLD US this is a "substantial phase".
But carry on, they are just digging up PDL and ruining the tourist season, just for the HECK of it!
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THEY HAVE TOLD US this is a "substantial phase".
But carry on, they are just digging up PDL and ruining the tourist season, just for the HECK of it!
You seem to be overlooking the 8 or so witnesses they still wish to interview. I'd place a few bets on who 4 of those witnesses are.
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I doubt that the backhoes are just to provide an interesting backdrop for interviewing people.