UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on May 22, 2013, 01:35:32 PM
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I've just been watching the McCann documentary which John kindly posted
Right at the start, Dave Edgar, the McCann's private detective, speaks of witnesses who saw a man hanging around the McCann's apartment some dayd before Madeleine went missing
The witnesses aren't named ( naturally ) but I wondered if anyone had come across their statements in the police files
The first witness was a British tourist who was with her young daughter when she saw the man. The second witness was a schoolgirl, and the third was a tourist from Cheshire who was with his wife
The only description offered in the documentary was that given by the first witness. She describes the man as being very ugly, with pitted skin and a big nose
During the reconstruction, the same actor is used in all three witness depictions ... suggesting that the same man was seen in each instance
I am assuming, therefore, that the other witnesses ( particularly the tourist from Cheshire who walked directly past the man, had a good look at him, and even made eye contact ) must have given the same description as the first witness ... very ugly, pock marked, and with a big nose
Can anyone confirm that to be the case ?
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Dave Edgar placed great importance on these witness statements, and in her book Kate says they are very significant
Is nothing known about these witnesses apart from the information given by the private detective ?
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Isn't it a bit absurd, Icabodcrane, to spot during day-time French windows which were locked from the inside in day time but not at night ? How would the spotter deduce the latter from the first ?
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Dave Edgar placed great importance on these witness statements, and in her book Kate says they are very significant
Is nothing known about these witnesses apart from the information given by the private detective ?
Poor Dave Edgar had to find someone, preferably spotty, hairy, teethy, crookey, hunchy, in a word ugly as described by the school girl.
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The only statement in the files that clearly describes a spotty man is this one, from the then 12 year old girl, and I believe when followed up led to someone called Michael Green, who was eliminated
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
Some other bits of info here
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id239.html
and alot of analysis and further info here to sift throigh on this issue
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/disgusting-episode-of-distorted.html
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Silence here is so deafening, nuff said
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Soz. missed this thread; have been away a lot the last coupla days
The little girl is Tasmin Silence. Her grandaprents owned 5A before the present owner. Her parents had split up and she "lived there" for some time. Knows the flat inside and outside. So she was especially interested when she saw the man watching on two seperate occasions, April 30th and May 2nd.
A highly intelligent little girl, she was able to remember him in detail and give a good description
http://madeleinemccannfiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/PV3-p800-805-Deposition-Tasmin-Sillence-09-05-07-re-Man-Street-Spying-Dead-Gran-Owned-5A.html.
It was also said that her grandpa had died in hospital and his clothes had been brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I dont know whether this is true, or a myth. tbh and that is why I haven't mentioned it on the Keela nad Eddie, in 5A, threads. But if true it could account for markings by the dogs.
Has anyone else heard this?
I know nothing about the lady with the child or the couple.
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It was also said that her grandpa had died in hospital and his clothes had been brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I dont know whether this is true, or a myth. tbh and that is why I haven't mentioned it on the Keela nad Eddie, in 5A, threads. But if true it could account for markings by the dogs.
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Well perhaps you can tell the board where you read it then and WHEN
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It was also said that her grandpa had died in hospital and his clothes had been brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I dont know whether this is true, or a myth. tbh and that is why I haven't mentioned it on the Keela nad Eddie, in 5A, threads. But if true it could account for markings by the dogs.
Has anyone else heard this?
I know nothing about the lady with the child or the couple.
I never heard of this one ! Have you got a link ? But somebody dying in a hospital normally hasn't his daily clothes on...
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i have made it quite clear that I cannot remember where I read it, but it might have been on an early forum that I was on.
I have also made it quite clear that it might be a myth.
That should be sufficient.
I hoped that someone else might remember mention of it, and if not it must have been in a PM. In which case, if I cant prove it, I am content for it to be ignored and considered a myth
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if I cant prove it, I am content for it to be ignored and considered a myth
You know, Sadie, that urban legends, when denied, gain weight ?
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Soz. missed this thread; have been away a lot the last coupla days
The little girl is Tasmin Silence. Her grandaprents owned 5A before the present owner. Her parents had split up and she "lived there" for some time. Knows the flat inside and outside. So she was especially interested when she saw the man watching on two seperate occasions, April 30th and May 2nd.
A highly intelligent little girl, she was able to remember him in detail and give a good description
http://madeleinemccannfiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/PV3-p800-805-Deposition-Tasmin-Sillence-09-05-07-re-Man-Street-Spying-Dead-Gran-Owned-5A.html.
It was also said that her grandpa had died in hospital and his clothes had been brought back and stored in the wardrobe. I dont know whether this is true, or a myth. tbh and that is why I haven't mentioned it on the Keela nad Eddie, in 5A, threads. But if true it could account for markings by the dogs.
Has anyone else heard this?
I know nothing about the lady with the child or the couple.
Thanks sadie ( I was counting on you to supply some info )
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The question was raised, if the man Tasmin Silence saw on two occasions loitering in the vicinity of apartment 5A could perhaps be James Gorrod. The picture is her e-fit on the right and Gorrod on the left. Does anyone know more about this?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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A good liking but the glasses looked similar in design to the ones Neil Berry was wearing. I think these alleged watchers were in fact tourists loitering about but to locals they are still strangers and therefore more likely to report them as possibly being involved.
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The question was raised, if the man Tasmin Silence saw on two occasions loitering in the vicinity of apartment 5A could perhaps be James Gorrod. The picture is her e-fit on the right and Gorrod on the left. Does anyone know more about this?
An amazing likeness for the lower part of the face. The upper part, unfortunately, is hidden by enormous sun glssses, shade and hat.
I bet, if interested, that SY would have the means to get a clearer image of the parts in shade ... and, of course they would be able to see the real man, himself
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The question was raised, if the man Tasmin Silence saw on two occasions loitering in the vicinity of apartment 5A could perhaps be James Gorrod. The picture is her e-fit on the right and Gorrod on the left. Does anyone know more about this?
Where did the photo of James Gorrod come from?
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Where did the photo of James Gorrod come from?
I am not sure, Rob.
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I am not sure, Rob.
Here maybe?... https://youtu.be/cuTuwkgNYWk?t=111 (https://youtu.be/cuTuwkgNYWk?t=111)
https://www.google.com/search?q=James+Gorrod&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=eaF-XHDD2imsFM%253A%252C4bp56TBcuMwRwM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ6XVFnbD4CaVLsp_vJHUZkjmvo3w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLg_iitfPmAhXUOcAKHfZyB8MQ9QEwA3oECAkQCg#imgrc=_hLOCC-7Klc09M:&vet=1 (https://www.google.com/search?q=James+Gorrod&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=eaF-XHDD2imsFM%253A%252C4bp56TBcuMwRwM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ6XVFnbD4CaVLsp_vJHUZkjmvo3w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLg_iitfPmAhXUOcAKHfZyB8MQ9QEwA3oECAkQCg#imgrc=_hLOCC-7Klc09M:&vet=1)
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Imagine being James Gorrod.
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The question was raised, if the man Tasmin Silence saw on two occasions loitering in the vicinity of apartment 5A could perhaps be James Gorrod. The picture is her e-fit on the right and Gorrod on the left. Does anyone know more about this?
The only thing I've ever wondered about is his date of birth; allegedly 4th May.
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The only thing I've ever wondered about is his date of birth; allegedly 4th May.
Oooh, fancy.
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Oooh, fancy.
Yes. I wonder if you know why?
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Yes. I wonder if you know why?
because that was the day his mum pushed him out into the big bad world?
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because that was the day his mum pushed him out into the big bad world?
No.
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No.
Oh well then, I give up.
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To be fair, just about every protagonist associated, even tenuously, to Madeleine's disappearance has been subjected to forensic scrutiny to varying degrees.
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CT seems to be one 'witness' who was either dismissed very quickly, or overlooked, bearing in mind she was actually there at the time and her movements do not seem to have been verified. Maybe simple process of elimination, who knows.
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CT seems to be one 'witness' who was either dismissed very quickly, or overlooked, bearing in mind she was actually there at the time and her movements do not seem to have been verified. Maybe simple process of elimination, who knows.
That's what I meant too.
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The question was raised, if the man Tasmin Silence saw on two occasions loitering in the vicinity of apartment 5A could perhaps be James Gorrod. The picture is her e-fit on the right and Gorrod on the left. Does anyone know more about this?
Long time lurker , this is my first post
On page 800, the interview with TASMIN MILBURN SILENCE is presented, who saw on two occasions and on several other days, an individual observing the apartment from which MADELEINE disappeared. A photo-fit was created based on the witness' indications . . . diligences were performed which led to the identification of MICHAEL ANTHONY GREEN, who was the target of diverse diligences without incriminatory results, pages 632 to 726 of Volume III, Appendix VI. Beyond this individual, there were other diligences performed at this level, also without useful results for the investigation, as is explained throughout Appendix VI.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PJ_Report_English_Translation.pdf
Slán Anois
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PJ_Report_English_Translation.pdf
Slán Anois
Welcome Colleen. (ty6e[
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What evidence exists re RM, SM, McCanns, T7, 3 x local petty criminals and anyone else hauled in by PJ?
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What evidence exists re RM, SM, McCanns, T7, 3 x local petty criminals and anyone else hauled in by PJ?
you have not been able to convince one poster on this forum...yet you expect to convince SY and the PJ...LOL
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you have not been able to convince one poster on this forum...yet you expect to convince SY and the PJ...LOL
And you and others here haven't been able to persuade the sceptics to your way of thinking so what is your point?
I would have expected PJ to put every single person under the microscope who was known to have been in close proximity to 5A on 3rd May regardless of age, perceived status or any other factor.
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And you and others here haven't been able to persuade the sceptics to your way of thinking so what is your point?
I would have expected PJ to put every single person under the microscope who was known to have been in close proximity to 5A on 3rd May regardless of age, perceived status or any other factor.
It seems the PJ were unaware of this woman's existence until they spoke to her aunt. She approached the British police herself and made an early statement, but was that passed on?
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And you and others here haven't been able to persuade the sceptics to your way of thinking so what is your point?
I would have expected PJ to put every single person under the microscope who was known to have been in close proximity to 5A on 3rd May regardless of age, perceived status or any other factor.
The difference is Ive never claimed i would change poeples mind...im not interested in doing so. You however have claimed to have solved the case...when you obviously havent
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It seems the PJ were unaware of this woman's existence until they spoke to her aunt. She approached the British police herself and made an early statement, but was that passed on?
It seems PF did not provide a wit stat until 20th Aug when she mentions the visit from her niece and the niece's sighting of the suspicious man. Angelo has suggested not all contact is captured. I assume by this he means an officer may have spoken with PF briefly and recorded something in a notebook.
We have no idea whether the niece's wit stat and efit were passed on. And there's no evidence the authorities have checked out these individuals on the basis they were in close proximity to 5A on the day MM disappeared. The wit stat was simply the nieces version of events. The police rog was a series of questions raised by the PJ. If any corroboration took place I would expect to see evidence of such in PJ files. British police were not tasked with investigating in 2008 they were merely following up requests from PJ.
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The difference is Ive never claimed i would change poeples mind...im not interested in doing so. You however have claimed to have solved the case...when you obviously havent
Where have I claimed I've changed peoples' minds?
How do you know my suspects were not already on the radar based on the Netflix docu/drama?
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Where have I claimed I've changed peoples' minds?
How do you know my suspects were not already on the radar based on the Netflix docu/drama?
You claimed you had solved the case... You obviously havent
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What evidence exists re RM, SM, McCanns, T7, 3 x local petty criminals and anyone else hauled in by PJ?
I have no objection to anyone being “hauled in” by the PJ, questioned and investigated - that’s their job and they are supposed to be the experts and have first hand access. I do object to armchair detectives taking it upon themselves to investigate the ancestry of individuals, their social media accounts, their birth and marriage records in an attempt to find something, anything to substantiate a suspicion . I reckon you could build a similar case about any of the people in the vicinity of Apartment 5a on the night in question by doing what you have done. And I object to this woman having the finger of blame pointed at her by a moderator on the Miscarriage of Justice forum. It’s beyond ironic imo.
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It seems PF did not provide a wit stat until 20th Aug when she mentions the visit from her niece and the niece's sighting of the suspicious man. Angelo has suggested not all contact is captured. I assume by this he means an officer may have spoken with PF briefly and recorded something in a notebook.
We have no idea whether the niece's wit stat and efit were passed on. And there's no evidence the authorities have checked out these individuals on the basis they were in close proximity to 5A on the day MM disappeared. The wit stat was simply the nieces version of events. The police rog was a series of questions raised by the PJ. If any corroboration took place I would expect to see evidence of such in PJ files. British police were not tasked with investigating in 2008 they were merely following up requests from PJ.
The British Authorities went way beyond following up requests from the PJ.
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Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
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Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
Holly is convinced, no one else seems to agree.
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Holly is convinced, no one else seems to agree.
Proven guilty through a court process. You can believe your own theory but that has still to be backed by a court decision IMO.
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Proven guilty through a court process. You can believe your own theory but that has still to be backed by a court decision IMO.
thats a point ive raised before ...holly cannot claim to have solved the case.
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thats a point ive raised before ...holly cannot claim to have solved the case.
Of course you can. You can claim whatever you like. It's only a verified claim at the end of the process.
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Of course you can. You can claim whatever you like. It's only a verified claim at the end of the process.
she can claim it as an opinion...not as fact
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she can claim it as an opinion...not as fact
You can claim the earth is flat, fact. You can claim god is watching, fact. You can claim you have ESP and can see the future, fact. It's only verified once proven. Doesn't matter if it's a claim or a claim it's a fact. Call it what you like - a claim, a proclamation, a fact, an undeniable truth. Doesn't matter. All the same. If it's a claim it's sort of OK, but if it's a claim of a fact you take offence?
(Maybe the Earth is flat [cue X-Files theme tune])
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You can claim the earth is flat, fact. You can claim god is watching, fact. You can claim you have ESP and can see the future, fact. It's only verified once proven. Doesn't matter if it's a claim or a claim it's a fact. Call it what you like - a claim, a proclamation, a fact, an undeniable truth. Doesn't matter. All the same. If it's a claim it's sort of OK, but if it's a claim of a fact you take offence?
(Maybe the Earth is flat [cue X-Files theme tune])
i dont take offence at all but i draw conclusions re the persons ability to assess evidence
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i dont take offence at all but i draw conclusions re the persons ability to assess evidence
You do that anyway, so what difference does it make?
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The British Authorities went way beyond following up requests from the PJ.
When? Evidenced by what?
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You claimed you had solved the case... You obviously havent
Obviously haven't...evidenced by what?
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When? Evidenced by what?
You will find a lot of information if you follow this link. It explains how the PJ were persuaded to request FLO's from LP, how LP set up an MIT in Portugal which the PJ didn't request, how CEOP sent two analysts who were neither requested nor welcomed (it took them a week to even get noticed). It also tells how LP recieved loads of information and sightings due to appeals in the press by the McCanns. It tells how HOLMES was available to the PJ but they didn't use it because it wasn't how they were used to working.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
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You will find a lot of information if you follow this link. It explains how the PJ were persuaded to request FLO's from LP, how LP set up an MIT in Portugal which the PJ didn't request, how CEOP sent two analysts who were neither requested nor welcomed (it took them a week to even get noticed). It also tells how LP recieved loads of information and sightings due to appeals in the press by the McCanns. It tells how HOLMES was available to the PJ but they didn't use it because it wasn't how they were used to working.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?
Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals? And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation? They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?
For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:
- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given. Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills
All of the above could rule someone in or out. As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about.
Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope. Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.
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Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?
Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals? And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation? They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?
For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:
- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given. Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills
All of the above could rule someone in or out. As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about.
Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope. Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.
As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would be more 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?
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As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would be more 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?
Yes everyone in the vicinity. Given no one knows the motive everyone needed to be treated equally.
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As witnesses, would you have expected these same background checks to be conducted on all of the OC / MW staff who gave a statement, bearing in mind there were others who would bemore 'on the radar' than these incidental protagonists?
Based on what?
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Based on what?
Longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.
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Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?
Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals? And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation? They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?
For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:
- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given. Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills
All of the above could rule someone in or out. As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about.
Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope. Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.
I think your suggestions about how the PJ should have behaved are totally unrealistic. Tracing and forensically testing cars without any reason is a crazy suggestion imo.
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Longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.
I accept PF seems an unlikely candidate but I would apply the same checks right across the board without any exception whatsoever.
Consider money laundering regulations everyone is treated equally and needs to provide the same evidence regardless of longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.
Consider checks at airports. Would it be right to single out men of middle eastern appearance thus potentially overlooking a female Scandinavian right wing extremist with evil intent?
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I think your suggestions about how the PJ should have behaved are totally unrealistic. Tracing and forensically testing cars without any reason is a crazy suggestion imo.
It isn't without reason. I'm not suggesting every car in Portugal or even PDL needed to be tested just those who a) had access to a vehicle and b) were in close proximity to 5A and/or McCanns.
All of what I have suggested is desk based other than forensically testing cars.
It would have been far more efficient and economical to nip all this in the bud up front.
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I accept PF seems an unlikely candidate but I would apply the same checks right across the board without any exception whatsoever.
Consider money laundering regulations everyone is treated equally and needs to provide the same evidence regardless of longevity, opportunity, access, status, suspicion.
Consider checks at airports. Would it be right to single out men of middle eastern appearance thus potentially overlooking a female Scandinavian right wing extremist with evil intent?
But they're not suspects, they're witnesses and will be processed accordingly. If one of them pops out for any reason, then they'll dig a bit deeper. Why would they delve in to the minutiae of the movements of the dude who empties the bins if he wasn't deemed to be a red flag?
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It isn't without reason. I'm not suggesting every car in Portugal or even PDL needed to be tested just those who a) had access to a vehicle and b) were in close proximity to 5A and/or McCanns.
All of what I have suggested is desk based other than forensically testing cars.
It would have been far more efficient and economical to nip all this in the bud up front.
It may have been.We don't know. If you think they would have blithely taken witness statements and accepted all of them as true and fair reflections, then I believe you may be mistaken. They followed up 1,000's of leads, why would they cast aside the testimony of the people involved?
For example, they certainly didn't take the T7 statements at face value - they put them alongside each other and decided upon incongruity, based on answers to the questions and the 'timeline'.
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Afaik the role of FLO is to keep the family updated on how the investigation is going and act as a go-between for investigating authorities and victims/family?
Thanks but I can't see any evidence that British police carried out any background checks on individuals? And why would they have done so in 2007/08 when it wasn't their investigation? They would surely only have done this at the request of PJ and there's nothing in files released to public in 2008 to indicate this was requested?
For example with PF's niece and husband I would like to have seen some corroboration of the testimony:
- Checks on passports to confirm arrived and departed in Portugal on dates given
- Checks on passports to confirm lifestyle in terms of business/leisure travel
- Checks with hire car firm to confirm car hired on dates given. Forensic checks on hire car.
- Checks with hotel to confirm arrived and departed on dates given (and if possible confirm arrived back on 3rd May at circa 8.30 pm as claimed)
- Checks on bank accounts to confirm employment and living at address given by way of payment for utility bills
All of the above could rule someone in or out. As it stands we have two individuals who were in very close proximity to 5A and the McCanns on 29th Apr and 3rd May (it seems all of the aforementioned were on their respective balconies around lunchtime) who we know absolutely nothing about.
Everyone, however unlikely they may seem on paper, needed to go under the microscope. Often the perps of child abuse slip under the radar based on nothing other than perception alone eg clergy and Savile.
My passport shows quite clearly that I have never left the UK.
Even as I type from near to Luz.
Perhaps I am but a figment of my own imagination?
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It isn't without reason. I'm not suggesting every car in Portugal or even PDL needed to be tested just those who a) had access to a vehicle and b) were in close proximity to 5A and/or McCanns.
All of what I have suggested is desk based other than forensically testing cars.
It would have been far more efficient and economical to nip all this in the bud up front.
So just for starters the cars hired by Raj Balu, Neil Berry, Julian Totman, the Reaps, the Hynds, the Janczurs, the Thornhills, the Weinburgers and the Gorrods should have been 'forensically tested'?
Then we have Mrs Fenn's car, the couple who left Block 6 at 10pm, the maintenance man who drove past 5A, the chef who did the same, and no doubt various others whose cars were around 5A that evening.
What exactly does 'forensic testing' of a car involve anyway?
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My passport shows quite clearly that I have never left the UK.
Even as I type from near to Luz.
Perhaps I am but a figment of my own imagination?
I think you might find the authorities can very easily and quickly at the touch of a few buttons determine who went where and when from a passport.
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So just for starters the cars hired by Raj Balu, Neil Berry, Julian Totman, the Reaps, the Hynds, the Janczurs, the Thornhills, the Weinburgers and the Gorrods should have been 'forensically tested'?
Then we have Mrs Fenn's car, the couple who left Block 6 at 10pm, the maintenance man who drove past 5A, the chef who did the same, and no doubt various others whose cars were around 5A that evening.
What exactly does 'forensic testing' of a car involve anyway?
Yes of course. Why and what have OG spent some 13 million on?
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It may have been.We don't know. If you think they would have blithely taken witness statements and accepted all of them as true and fair reflections, then I believe you may be mistaken. They followed up 1,000's of leads, why would they cast aside the testimony of the people involved?
For example, they certainly didn't take the T7 statements at face value - they put them alongside each other and decided upon incongruity, based on answers to the questions and the 'timeline'.
Exactly we know PJ made various background checks on McCanns as evidenced by PJ files but where's the evidence they carried out similar checks on others?
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Exactly we know PJ made various background checks on McCanns as evidenced by PJ files but where's the evidence they carried out similar checks on others?
Wheat and chaff. The others would have been filtered out, probably semi-informally, through the process - rightly or wrongly, depending on your leaning. They developed Persons of Interest. Then they developed Arguidi (I just made up the Portuguese plural of Arguido for them).
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Yes of course. Why and what have OG spent some 13 million on?
Now that is a question.
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Yes of course. Why and what have OG spent some 13 million on?
Not on that imo.
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I think you might find the authorities can very easily and quickly at the touch of a few buttons determine who went where and when from a passport.
Whereas I think you have been watching too many fictional crime films.
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Exactly we know PJ made various background checks on McCanns as evidenced by PJ files but where's the evidence they carried out similar checks on others?
Then what method did they use to eliminate people from the inquiry?
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Exactly we know PJ made various background checks on McCanns as evidenced by PJ files but where's the evidence they carried out similar checks on others?
We know that the PJ attempted to make background checks on the McCanns, but were they successful? They never got Madeleine's medical records and they never got details of expenditure on the couple's credit cards. What else did they request/get?
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thats a point ive raised before ...holly cannot claim to have solved the case.
Some witnesses could easily be deceased by now.
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Reminder to all members. Please DO NOT post comments which could be viewed as defamatory!
Moderators will delete content immediately which does not conform strictly with the rules. TY
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Whereas I think you have been watching too many fictional crime films.
How do you think the authorities were able to identify the two Russians supposedly linked to the poising in Salisbury?
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Wheat and chaff. The others would have been filtered out, probably semi-informally, through the process - rightly or wrongly, depending on your leaning. They developed Persons of Interest. Then they developed Arguidi (I just made up the Portuguese plural of Arguido for them).
What evidence existed against RM?
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Then what method did they use to eliminate people from the inquiry?
I've no idea.
It seems in the case of RM he had his world ripped apart when there wasn't ever a scrap of evidence linking him to MM's disappearance. How would he have known the McCanns nighttime MO?
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I've no idea.
It seems in the case of RM he had his world ripped apart when there wasn't ever a scrap of evidence linking him to MM's disappearance. How would he have known the McCanns nighttime MO?
You mean there wasn’t a single inconsistency in his or his mother’s account, or details of his ancestors’ past that could be forensically scrutinised and presented as a theory of involvement ? I’m sure you could do so if you wanted to.
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But they're not suspects, they're witnesses and will be processed accordingly. If one of them pops out for any reason, then they'll dig a bit deeper. Why would they delve in to the minutiae of the movements of the dude who empties the bins if he wasn't deemed to be a red flag?
In this case everyone who potentially knew McCanns nighttime MO needed to be made a suspect which excludes the bin man along with RM, Sergey Malinka, the female associated with RM/SM, the black guy (now deceased) and the 3 local petty criminals.
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You mean there wasn’t a single inconsistency in his or his mother’s account, or details of his ancestors’ past that could be forensically scrutinised and presented as a theory of involvement ? I’m sure you could do so if you wanted to.
Why would I when they had no knowledge the McCanns were dining at tapas every evening AND leaving the children unsupervised AND not bothering to lock doors.
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Why would I when they had no knowledge the McCanns were dining at tapas every evening AND leaving the children unsupervised AND not bothering to lock doors.
How do you know? They may have had insider info, been working as part of a gang, you’re just making assumptions without forensically studying their every connection, their every movement pre and post the abduction.
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In this case everyone who potentially knew McCanns nighttime MO needed to be made a suspect which excludes the bin man along with RM, Sergey Malinka, the female associated with RM/SM, the black guy (now deceased) and the 3 local petty criminals.
Who do we know knew the McCann's MO? According to the statements no-one knew that the patio doors were left unlocked until Kate McCann told her friends at 9pm on 3rd.
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How do you know? They may have had insider info, been working as part of a gang, you’re just making assumptions without forensically studying their every connection, their every movement pre and post the abduction.
I work on what's plausible AND possible.
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I work on what's plausible AND possible.
you cannot be serious. There is nothing plausible about your theory, starting with: what did the Tranmers do with Madeleine after allegedly stealing her?!
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Who do we know knew the McCann's MO? According to the statements no-one knew that the patio doors were left unlocked until Kate McCann told her friends at 9pm on 3rd.
Do you have a cite from each of the seven tapas members stating that they didn’t know the patio doors were left unlocked?
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you cannot be serious. There is nothing plausible about your theory, starting with: what did the Tranmers do with Madeleine after allegedly stealing her?!
I've never claimed to know exactly who was involved and what the motive was.
Did certain individuals know MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment? Possibly yes
Did certain individuals know a recent attempted burglary had taken place directly above 5A and they could stage window and shutter to deflect? Possibly yes
Did certain individuals who potentially had access to the above info also have a hire car? Yes
Did the S&R dogs scent MM outside the immediate vicinity? No
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Who do we know knew the McCann's MO? According to the statements no-one knew that the patio doors were left unlocked until Kate McCann told her friends at 9pm on 3rd.
PF who heard MM crying and calling 'daddy, daddy' for well over an hour on 1st May until she heard the patio doors slide open and the crying ceased.
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I've never claimed to know exactly who was involved and what the motive was.
Did certain individuals know MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment? Possibly yes
Did certain individuals know a recent attempted burglary had taken place directly above 5A and they could stage window and shutter to deflect? Possibly yes
Did certain individuals who potentially had access to the above info also have a hire car? Yes
Did the S&R dogs scent MM outside the immediate vicinity? No
What I don't do is rule anyone in/out based on perception especially when the motive is unknown.
I certainly don't think will this seems unlikely based on gender, age and type of house lived in.
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Re the Tapas group and entry to the Mc Cann flat by patio doors: if memory serves me correctly Russell says he went in through the patio doors on the Sunday night.Either he or Matt says he remembers the ´´change of routine ´´ by the Mc Canns being mentioned at the table maybe on the Monday. Jane Tanner says she was not told but came to that conclusion. Why? Simples. They are all eating and drinking together. They get up to leave. All of them go together. The rest go up the street to the car park etc. Where do the Mc Canns go? Up the steps to their patio.
Cites? You must be joking- it´s all in their endless statements.
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I also think Jeremy Wilkins said he was talking to Gerry and Russell at 20.00 on the Wednesday in Tapas and they told him about the checking. We have no real way of knowing how many people were aware of the checking. I suspect the perp was aware. Of course I could be wrong.
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Re the Tapas group and entry to the Mc Cann flat by patio doors: if memory serves me correctly Russell says he went in through the patio doors on the Sunday night.Either he or Matt says he remembers the ´´change of routine ´´ by the Mc Canns being mentioned at the table maybe on the Monday. Jane Tanner says she was not told but came to that conclusion. Why? Simples. They are all eating and drinking together. They get up to leave. All of them go together. The rest go up the street to the car park etc. Where do the Mc Canns go? Up the steps to their patio.
Cites? You must be joking- it´s all in their endless statements.
RO says in the first interview the windows and sliding doors to their apartment was always locked,adding as he understood it GM+KM used the sliding doors because it was easier.
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I also think Jeremy Wilkins said he was talking to Gerry and Russell at 20.00 on the Wednesday in Tapas and they told him about the checking. We have no real way of knowing how many people were aware of the checking. I suspect the perp was aware. Of course I could be wrong.
Quite possibly.
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Thanks Barrier. We all know the patio doors could not be locked from the outside as did ROB.
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I also think Jeremy Wilkins said he was talking to Gerry and Russell at 20.00 on the Wednesday in Tapas and they told him about the checking. We have no real way of knowing how many people were aware of the checking. I suspect the perp was aware. Of course I could be wrong.
I agee but I doubt the McCanns told anyone which door they used. In the case of JW he probably became aware on the Thu as he saw GM around the gate and had previously been told about the checking arrangement.
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I agee but I doubt the McCanns told anyone which door they used. In the case of JW he probably became aware on the Thu as he saw GM around the gate and had previously been told about the checking arrangement.
Yes, no mention of any door.
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Yes, no mention of any door.
It would be superfluous info but others who were able to see/hear the McCanns going in and out would know what was going on eg PF and then anyone she told eg her friend Edna Glyn.
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PF who heard MM crying and calling 'daddy, daddy' for well over an hour on 1st May until she heard the patio doors slide open and the crying ceased.
How can you move from that to the idea that she knew they were leaving the doors unlocked every evening or that they had been left unlocked on that evening? I think that's adding 2 and two and making 5.
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It would be superfluous info but others who were able to see/hear the McCanns going in and out would know what was going on eg PF and then anyone she told eg her friend Edna Glyn.
Is there independent witness's of any one using any doors?
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Is there independent witness's of any one using any doors?
PF heard a small child crying and calling daddy, daddy for over an hour starting at circa 10.30 pm on 1st May. She didn't see the parents return but heard the patio doors slide open circa 11.45 pm when the crying ceased.
Block 5 is built on a slope so anyone sitting on a first floor balcony would have an excellent view of those walking up FGM. PF's niece tells us in her police rog she sat on PF's balcony, along with her husband and PF, around lunch-time on 29th Apr and 3rd May when the party might well have seen the McCanns and the 3 children return for lunch via the patio or whatever door they used. KM tells us patio doors.
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How can you move from that to the idea that she knew they were leaving the doors unlocked every evening or that they had been left unlocked on that evening? I think that's adding 2 and two and making 5.
You tell PF then not me:
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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How can you move from that to the idea that she knew they were leaving the doors unlocked every evening or that they had been left unlocked on that evening? I think that's adding 2 and two and making 5.
I didn't say she knew the patio doors were unlocked every night but I think it's fairly obvious she knew the McCanns returned via patio doors on 1st May.
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And why would PF worry about the crying and call a friend to discuss if she thought the parents or other adult tasked with caring for the children were inside?
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PF heard a small child crying and calling daddy, daddy for over an hour starting at circa 10.30 pm on 1st May. She didn't see the parents return but heard the patio doors slide open circa 11.45 pm when the crying ceased.
Block 5 is built on a slope so anyone sitting on a first floor balcony would have an excellent view of those walking up FGM. PF's niece tells us in her police rog she sat on PF's balcony, along with her husband and PF, around lunch-time on 29th Apr and 3rd May when the party might well have seen the McCanns and the 3 children return for lunch via the patio or whatever door they used. KM tells us patio doors.
I thought they said they used the locked front door during the day.
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I didn't say she knew the patio doors were unlocked every night but I think it's fairly obvious she knew the McCanns returned via patio doors on 1st May.
She told the police that on 20th August. By then the information about the patio doors being used was known to the general public. She may well have concluded after the event that what she had heard was the parents returning.
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I thought they said they used the locked front door during the day.
Regardless of which door they used during the day all amenities used meant they were walking up FGM and if PF was on her balcony they would no doubt observe the McCann entourage.
PF was cleary aware:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle.
KM tells us in her PB that after the first couple of days they hardly used the front door.
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Regardless of which door they used during the day all amenities used meant they were walking up FGM and if PF was on her balcony they would no doubt observe the McCann entourage.
PF was cleary aware:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle.
KM tells us in her PB that after the first couple of days they hardly used the front door.
Which is at odds with the PJ statements by Gerry.
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She told the police that on 20th August. By then the information about the patio doors being used was known to the general public. She may well have concluded after the event that what she had heard was the parents returning.
I've always found a dearth of info re the patio doors but in any event I think she gave an accurate account of what she heard.
Why would she invent, embellish etc?
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If Mrs Fenn was sitting on her balcony what would she see? In my opinion her view of who was walking up the road was hampered by the walls of the Tapas complex and the height of the hedges of 5A. Only by leaning over her railings would she have been able to see anyone climbing the steps to the balcony of 5A.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/GUARDIAN-15-5-7/GD3301579@A-Police-officer-stan-9167.jpg)
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Which is at odds with the PJ statements by Gerry.
Yes there are a number of contradictions in the stats between GM and KM. Some see it as evidence of involvement. I see GM trying to play down his stupidity in leaving the children in the unsecured apartment.
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If Mrs Fenn was sitting on her balcony what would she see? In my opinion her view of who was walking up the road was hampered by the walls of the Tapas complex and the height of the hedges of 5A. Only by leaning over her railings would she have been able to see anyone climbing the steps to the balcony of 5A.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/GUARDIAN-15-5-7/GD3301579@A-Police-officer-stan-9167.jpg)
And there she is leaning over her balcony!
I think perhaps people underestimate the gradient. I think PF would see people walking up and down FGM without having to hang over her balcony. In terms of those leaving/arriving 5A she couldn't help but hear the gates opening and closing, patio doors slide open and general chatter especially with 2 adults and 3 children.
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Yes there are a number of contradictions in the stats between GM and KM. Some see it as evidence of involvement. I see GM trying to play down his stupidity in leaving the children in the unsecured apartment.
The contradictions are a fact. The explanations are opinions. Opinions can't be used to rule people in or out of an investigation.
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The contradictions are a fact. The explanations are opinions. Opinions can't be used to rule people in or out of an investigation.
Contradictions and inconsistencies exist in the statements of others too!
If opinions can't be used to rule people in and out of an investigation how do you account for those that were made arguidos and interviewed?
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The contradictions are a fact. The explanations are opinions. Opinions can't be used to rule people in or out of an investigation.
Options are used to find people guilty or not guilty so you are a million miles wide of the mark
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She told the police that on 20th August. By then the information about the patio doors being used was known to the general public. She may well have concluded after the event that what she had heard was the parents returning.
Also, how could Mrs Fenn be certain it was the parents returning and the crying stopped? Over a period of five days, Madeleine would have had contact with many people whom she would learn to trust and recognise them/him/her as such, and finding comfort in them/him/her trying to soothe her.
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How do you think the authorities were able to identify the two Russians supposedly linked to the poising in Salisbury?
Neither country is in the Schengen Zone.
I still don't have anything in my passport, and I can travel within the Schengen Zone without any border check.
This has been covered on the forum extensively in the past. Perhaps you should do a search and get a 101 before pronouncing further.
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Yes there are a number of contradictions in the stats between GM and KM. Some see it as evidence of involvement. I see GM trying to play down his stupidity in leaving the children in the unsecured apartment.
It was a bit late for that.
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Neither country is in the Schengen Zone.
I still don't have anything in my passport, and I can travel within the Schengen Zone without any border check.
This has been covered on the forum extensively in the past. Perhaps you should do a search and get a 101 before pronouncing further.
The UK isn't and never has been in the Schengen area.
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Also, how could Mrs Fenn be certain it was the parents returning and the crying stopped? Over a period of five days, Madeleine would have had contact with many people whom she would learn to trust and recognise them/he/her as such, and finding comfort in them/he/her trying to soothe her.
Who do you think Mrs Fenn might have heard entering 5A at circa 11.45 pm?
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The UK isn't and never has been in the Schengen area.
Nor Russia. Precisely my point.
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Nor Russia. Precisely my point.
I'm talking about a witness who claimed she and her husband flew to Portugal on 28th April from UK and returned on 5th May. Unlike those who went with MW these people did not have a package deal and I would have expected UK authorities to corroborate via passports/airline.
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I'm talking about a witness who claimed she and her husband flew to Portugal on 28th April from UK and returned on 5th May. Unlike those who went with MW these people did not have a package deal and I would have expected UK authorities to corroborate via passports/airline.
Do you have evidence that they didn't ?
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Do you have evidence that they didn't ?
Well there's nothing in PJ files and no questions asked in police rog eg which airport flew in and out of.
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I'm talking about a witness who claimed she and her husband flew to Portugal on 28th April from UK and returned on 5th May. Unlike those who went with MW these people did not have a package deal and I would have expected UK authorities to corroborate via passports/airline.
Would this be the one who has been interviewed three times? Other news outlets are available.
Carole, 71, has been quizzed three times in the past by Portuguese and British officers about “the man acting suspiciously” at the Ocean Club in Portugal’s Praia da Luz.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9018686/madeleine-mccann-british-witness-saw-chief-suspect-helped-produce-cop-sketch-queens-friend/
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Well there's nothing in PJ files and no questions asked in police rog eg which airport flew in and out of.
If they already knew, they wouldn't need to ask.
Many things are absent fro the files - allegedly
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Contradictions and inconsistencies exist in the statements of others too!
If opinions can't be used to rule people in and out of an investigation how do you account for those that were made arguidos and interviewed?
I was referring to you ruling the McCanns out based on your opinion of what Gerry McCann was thinking.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1616.msg569281#msg569281
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I was referring to you ruling the McCanns out based on your opinion of what Gerry McCann was thinking.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1616.msg569281#msg569281
I've ruled out McCanns on the following basis:
- There's no evidence against them
- I can't see how the logistics would work in disposing of a body
- Why attract attention by orchestrating a high profile campaign? Just allow it all to subside and be grateful for getting away with it.
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If they already knew, they wouldn't need to ask.
Many things are absent fro the files - allegedly
How would they know without asking?
We can see the questions Leicester police asked witnesses based on requests from PJ. It wasn't for the UK police to investigate back in 2008.
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Would this be the one who has been interviewed three times? Other news outlets are available.
Carole, 71, has been quizzed three times in the past by Portuguese and British officers about “the man acting suspiciously” at the Ocean Club in Portugal’s Praia da Luz.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9018686/madeleine-mccann-british-witness-saw-chief-suspect-helped-produce-cop-sketch-queens-friend/
I don't believe CT has ever been interviewed by PJ? I think she volunteered info to British police in 2007. Leicester police subsequently met her in an office to take a wit stat re her 'suspicious man'. Reading police then followed up to produce an efit.
In 2008 Leicester police contacted CT to produce a rog stat as per PJ's request.
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Who do you think Mrs Fenn might have heard entering 5A at circa 11.45 pm?
Of course I do not know, Holly. It could have been her parent/s, friend/s of the parents, child care worker/s, neighbour/s, a concerned passer-by. I think Madeleine would have latched onto various people during that period.
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You mean there wasn’t a single inconsistency in his or his mother’s account, or details of his ancestors’ past that could be forensically scrutinised and presented as a theory of involvement ? I’m sure you could do so if you wanted to.
*%6^ Interesting.
When I last visited the Algarve, I actually saw RM in a very interesting up market, semi private place, over 20 miles from his home. As we drove past, he waved to us. Must have thought that we were residents.
Of course, he may only have been making a social call, but this quiet area was over 20 miles from home. Quite a coincidence. We saw no other person there in this interesting place; a cul de sac ...not one.
It did interest me because I had specially visited this quiet place for a reason ... and also when I mentioned it on forum, saying that he was tall, someone on here immediately posted an image of him making his legs way shorter. It was a very crude amateur and obvious alteration of a photo designed to try to make him look short.
Now that also interested me. Why would anyone dash to produce a 'fake' image of him to make him look short?
Also the GE images of the area have been changed, very professionally ... and that has interested me too. $65*
I don't expect any of you will believe me; some of you make a profession of denouncing and rubbishing me and everything I say.
And with those that do, I tend to look at a little closer at them 8(0(*
Tin hat on and bunkered down.
Unfortunately wont be around much to smile at any comments.
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And there she is leaning over her balcony!
I think perhaps people underestimate the gradient. I think PF would see people walking up and down FGM without having to hang over her balcony. In terms of those leaving/arriving 5A she couldn't help but hear the gates opening and closing, patio doors slide open and general chatter especially with 2 adults and 3 children.
Looking at the photograph it is difficult to see how Mrs Fenn was able to have a conversation with those on the McCann balcony immediately beneath her but she certainly was able to and did.
Therefore I think you are right that she could see far more than we think she could and the gradient would help to explain why.
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*%6^ Interesting.
When I last visited the Algarve, I actually saw RM in a very interesting up market, semi private place, over 20 miles from his home. As we drove past, he waved to us. Must have thought that we were residents.
Of course, he may only have been making a social call, but this quiet area was over 20 miles from home. Quite a coincidence. We saw no other person there in this interesting place; a cul de sac ...not one.
It did interest me because I had specially visited this quiet place for a reason ... and also when I mentioned it on forum, saying that he was tall, someone on here immediately posted an image of him making his legs way shorter. It was a very crude amateur and obvious alteration of a photo designed to try to make him look short.
Now that also interested me. Why would anyone dash to produce a 'fake' image of him to make him look short?
Also the GE images of the area have been changed, very professionally ... and that has interested me too. $65*
I don't expect any of you will believe me; some of you make a profession of denouncing and rubbishing me and everything I say.
And with those that do, I tend to look at a little closer at them 8(0(*
Tin hat on and bunkered down.
Unfortunately wont be around much to smile at any comments.
Oh, here we go again. Conspiracy theories by the bucketful. Do you think these have been altered?... RM is stocky, So what?
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/robert-murat-at-the-high-court-where-he-was-awarded-substantial-damages-from-11-newspapers-over-their-coverage-of-the-disappearance-of-madeline-mccann-london-britain-17-jul-2008-782937f (https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/robert-murat-at-the-high-court-where-he-was-awarded-substantial-damages-from-11-newspapers-over-their-coverage-of-the-disappearance-of-madeline-mccann-london-britain-17-jul-2008-782937f)
https://solarpix.photoshelter.com/image/I00006DyM0gZ5KOs (https://solarpix.photoshelter.com/image/I00006DyM0gZ5KOs)
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I've ruled out McCanns on the following basis:
- There's no evidence against them
- I can't see how the logistics would work in disposing of a body
- Why attract attention by orchestrating a high profile campaign?
Just allow it all to subside and be grateful for getting away with it.
That question could be asked of that murdering b@stard Philpot!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3707309/mick-philpott-derby-fire-manslaughter-children-jail/
The rat loved and courted publicity- even provided crocodile tears
"
Just allow it all to subside and be grateful for getting away with it"
They couldn't do that they had to protect their image by explaining to family and work colleagues ALSO, the pj were not buying it, hence why they began their campaign to discredit the PJ. Attack the best for of defense. Is how it all seems to me.
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That question could be asked of that murdering b@stard Philpot!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3707309/mick-philpott-derby-fire-manslaughter-children-jail/
The rat loved and courted publicity- even provided crocodile tears
"
Just allow it all to subside and be grateful for getting away with it"
They couldn't do that they had to protect their image by explaining to family and work colleagues ALSO, the pj were not buying it, hence why they began their campaign to discredit the PJ. Attack the best for of defense. Is how it all seems to me.
I think you are quite mistaken....do you think Philpott would have kept the investigation in the limelight for 12 years had he not been caught......i think Holly is spot on in this case
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I think you are quite mistaken....do you think Philpott would have kept the investigation in the limelight for 12 years had he not been caught......i think Holly is spot on in this case
Have the McCann kept it in the spotlight? papers certainly have at the the behest of who though,probably themselves,Madeleine the gift that keeps giving.
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*%6^ Interesting.
When I last visited the Algarve, I actually saw RM in a very interesting up market, semi private place, over 20 miles from his home. As we drove past, he waved to us. Must have thought that we were residents.
Of course, he may only have been making a social call, but this quiet area was over 20 miles from home. Quite a coincidence. We saw no other person there in this interesting place; a cul de sac ...not one.
It did interest me because I had specially visited this quiet place for a reason ... and also when I mentioned it on forum, saying that he was tall, someone on here immediately posted an image of him making his legs way shorter. It was a very crude amateur and obvious alteration of a photo designed to try to make him look short.
Now that also interested me. Why would anyone dash to produce a 'fake' image of him to make him look short?
Also the GE images of the area have been changed, very professionally ... and that has interested me too. $65*
I don't expect any of you will believe me; some of you make a profession of denouncing and rubbishing me and everything I say.
And with those that do, I tend to look at a little closer at them 8(0(*
Tin hat on and bunkered down.
Unfortunately wont be around much to smile at any comments.
Looks of medium height.
(https://i.imgur.com/4vqH3DK.jpg)
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Looks of medium height.
(https://i.imgur.com/4vqH3DK.jpg)
Looks of medium height.
(https://i.imgur.com/4vqH3DK.jpg)
He is up there with the policemen. Police tend to be tall not short.
Had a photo showing Rob with the police officers en mass near 5A but cant find it now and he was up there with them on that. I posted it on the forum but most of you will have seen it. Quite tall, IMO. Six feet tall ?
He has quite a presence as he walks towards you with his broad chest. And he was very genial
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He is up there with the policemen. Police tend to be tall not short.
Had a photo showing Rob with the police officers en mass near 5A but cant find it now and he was up there with them on that. I posted it on the forum but most of you will have seen it. Quite tall, IMO. Six feet tall ?
He has quite a presence as he walks towards you with his broad chest. And he was very genial
This one,still looks average to me,apologise to who ever if its not Mr Murat.
(https://i.imgur.com/KglRQMZ.jpg)
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This one,still looks average to me,apologise to who ever if its not Mr Murat.
(https://i.imgur.com/KglRQMZ.jpg)
It does look like Murat. Police wear hats to make them look Taller!
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(https://i.imgur.com/KglRQMZ.jpg)
It does look like Murat. Police wear hats to make them look Taller!
Well spotted, Mistaken. 8@??)(
You are correct, so when they take their hats off, the police officers are shorter than they look
additionally,
Murat is leaning over at an angle, not standing up straight, whilst most of the PJ are upright. This will make Murat appear shorter
I think that these 2 points indicate that Rob Murat is probably taller than the average height of the officers.
Thank you Mistaken 8((()*/
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This one,still looks average to me,apologise to who ever if its not Mr Murat.
(https://i.imgur.com/KglRQMZ.jpg)
Of course it's Murat. The police are wearing thick-soled boots in comparison to Murat's patents, and the average height of Portuguese males is shorter than the norm... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.10017 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.10017)
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He is up there with the policemen. Police tend to be tall not short.
Had a photo showing Rob with the police officers en mass near 5A but cant find it now and he was up there with them on that. I posted it on the forum but most of you will have seen it. Quite tall, IMO. Six feet tall ?
He has quite a presence as he walks towards you with his broad chest. And he was very genial
... but he's got short legs. I can tell with my x-ray specs...
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/robert-murat-at-the-high-court-where-he-was-awarded-substantial-damages-from-11-newspapers-over-their-coverage-of-the-disappearance-of-madeline-mccann-london-britain-17-jul-2008-782937f (https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/robert-murat-at-the-high-court-where-he-was-awarded-substantial-damages-from-11-newspapers-over-their-coverage-of-the-disappearance-of-madeline-mccann-london-britain-17-jul-2008-782937f)
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(https://i.imgur.com/KglRQMZ.jpg)
Well spotted, Mistaken. 8@??)(
You are correct, so when they take their hats off, the police officers are shorter than they look
additionally,
Murat is leaning over at an angle, not standing up straight, whilst most of the PJ are upright. This will make Murat appear shorter
I think that these 2 points indicate that Rob Murat is probably taller than the average height of the officers.
Thank you Mistaken 8((()*/
5'9"
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Of course I do not know, Holly. It could have been her parent/s, friend/s of the parents, child care worker/s, neighbour/s, a concerned passer-by. I think Madeleine would have latched onto various people during that period.
I very much doubt a 3 yoa child who had been crying for over an hour and calling for her daddy in an unfamiliar holiday apartment could be soothed by anyone other than her parents and certainly not a stranger.
PF doesn't say anything about hearing any doors/open close after she heard the patio doors at 11.45 pm.
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I very much doubt a 3 yoa child who had been crying for over an hour and calling for her daddy in an unfamiliar holiday apartment could be soothed by anyone other than her parents and certainly not a stranger.
PF doesn't say anything about hearing any doors/open close after she heard the patio doors at 11.45 pm.
How can you be certain that Mrs Fenn was correct re. the following: (1) the crying was in fact from apartment 5A, (2) it was in fact a parent entering and the crying stopped? Also, Rachel Oldfield in the apartment next to the McCanns, was apparently not well and stayed in their apartment on the evening of 1 May 2007. Wouldn’t she, as a friend of Madeleine’s parents, intervene in the crying incident?
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How can you be certain that Mrs Fenn was correct re. the following: (1) the crying was in fact from apartment 5A, (2) it was in fact a parent entering and the crying stopped? Also, Rachel Oldfield in the apartment next to the McCanns, was apparently not well and stayed in their apartment on the evening of 1 May 2007. Wouldn’t she, as a friend of Madeleine’s parents, intervene in the crying incident?
RO didn't go to dinner on the Wed as she felt unwell not the Tue as you've claimed.
PF was a permanent resident at OC. Surely she would know what she heard and wear the sound originated from? If not MM who do you think the crying originated from? If not McCanns entering who do you think it was?
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RO didn't go to dinner on the Wed as she felt unwell not the Tue as you've claimed.
PF was a permanent resident at OC. Surely she would know what she heard and wear the sound originated from? If not MM who do you think the crying originated from? If not McCanns entering who do you think it was?
And yet, her husband Matt said she stayed in on the evening of 1 May. I find it strange that if it was Madeleine crying for more than an hour, her two siblings not waking up, upset and also crying.
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RO didn't go to dinner on the Wed as she felt unwell not the Tue as you've claimed.
PF was a permanent resident at OC. Surely she would know what she heard and wear the sound originated from? If not MM who do you think the crying originated from? If not McCanns entering who do you think it was?
Are you referring to the ‘mystery couple’ entering 5A?
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And yet, her husband Matt said she stayed in on the evening of 1 May. I find it strange that if it was Madeleine crying for more than an hour, her two siblings not waking up, upset and also crying.
Who do you see as more reliable MO or RO?
Stages 3 and 4 of sleep are difficult to wake from. We've been thru this before. I uploaded the vid clip of GM carrying SM off the return flight to UK. GM was talking into the microphone, the aircraft engines were running and various vehicles moving around and not a peep from little SM.
People refuse to accept the science underlying various phenomena.