Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 01:44:39 AM
Title: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 01:44:39 AM
Looking at the timings and witness statements, how many minutes did this potential abductor have to carry out the crime ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: John on June 06, 2013, 01:57:27 AM
Well we know from Jane's evidence that she saw the guy carrying the child at 9.15pm ish which followed a check by Gerry just after 9.05pm. Therefore the window of opportunity was very small so we are left with the distinct possibility that someone was watching and waiting for the right moment. They waited until Gerry had done the check and then made their move. What they didn't count on was Jane coming up the street as well.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 06:41:45 AM
There has been a suggestion that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry arrived to do his check at 9pm, was possibly disturbed and hid until Gerry had left again.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 06, 2013, 09:31:58 AM
if this was a planned abduction ie the culprits had been watching the flat for a few nights - then they will have known the 20 /30 minute check routine, - so it makes sense that as soon as a check was done and the checker left then that was the optimum time.
My own theory and nothing more than a theory - is that this was two people . One entered by the patio as it was known to be unlocked and then handed a sleeping or maybe even drugged Maddie out of the window to an accomplice who then just walked towards a waiting car which was parked a little way away. Acomplice leaves - meets up in car and then hits the road . They could be in Spain within the hour - certainly by the time the police got there and started to work out what happened.
This would take minutes - and would fit the timings - as soon as Gerry left the flat and started to walk away - perp one enters - places a handkerchief over maddies mouth - subdues her with some chloroform, or similar.- opens shutters and hands Maddie out to perp 2 -
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2013, 09:55:11 AM
Meanwhile in the real world, there is not one factual piece of information which proves an abduction took place.
The rest is hyperbole.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: huggy on June 06, 2013, 10:07:12 AM
A very plausible scenario south of the river. My own theory is that one guy went in through the open window helped by an accomplice who held the shutter up. The idea offered that there is no evidence of an abduction is frankly absurd stephen.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 10:07:43 AM
Meanwhile, in the real world, no anti McCann have been able to present one single, credible or even possible scenario alternative scenario to abduction.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2013, 10:11:40 AM
Now that is very poor.
Ask the dogs.
Try to comprehend that the inconclusive results of the D.N.A. testing, does not mean what the dogs indicated was wrong.
So no points on that one Mrs. B.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 10:13:23 AM
Meanwhile in the real world, there is not one factual piece of information which proves an abduction took place.
The rest is hyperbole.
A child missing. Raised shutters, open window, 4 eye witnesses, a forensic disaster - plus no motive, no means and no time for the parents or their friends to have removed Madeleine from 5A and disposed of her body. That's evidence to me.
Why don't you give us your theory of what happened Stephen?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: huggy on June 06, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
Meanwhile in the real world, there is not one factual piece of information which proves an abduction took place.
The rest is hyperbole.
I said it was my theory - what we do know is Madeleine is missing - so something happened to her. There can really only be three possibilities
1. Died in flat either by accident / fall/ took some drugs by mistake etc etc and the body disposed of by parents / friends
2 woke and wandered and picked up by a local / impulse snatch and body hidden / disposed
3 Abducted by persons unknown in planned snatch and taken away from area
Please add to list if you have any more. If there was any firm factual piece of information that proved any one of the above then this case would have been solved years ago. That's the thing there isn't. Even if you go with scenario 1 - I have yet to see any logical theory on how the parents/friends disposed of body on night and then managed to retrieve body later in hire car - to me that is the least possible out of all three
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 10:32:29 AM
Ask the dogs.Try to comprehend that the inconclusive results of the D.N.A. testing, does not mean what the dogs indicated was wrong.
So no points on that one Mrs. B.
But we know from Grime what Eddie would have said :-
''I cannot tell you whether this scent has been here for a few days or for years. I cannot tell you whether it originated at this spot or drifted here from elsewhere. I cannot tell you whether it is from direct contact with a cadaver or whether the scent has been transferred here by innocent means. I cannot tell you who it belongs to. I cannot tell you whether it is from a cadaver or from nail cuttings, hair etc from a living person. I cannot tell you whether the scent is from human remains or pigmeat because I can't tell the difference''
How do you think that would go down in court as evidence - Stephen?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
It certainly doesn't mean they were right. Minus 10 points duh.
Unfortunately, nobody can ask the dogs, a) they never could speak b) they're dead, i,e. they can never be tested for accuracy c) according to their own handler, Mr. Grime: Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.
Not ONE of the alerts were later corroborated by forensics, which according to Mr. Grime, render the dog alerts meaningless.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Lace on June 06, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
I would be very interested to hear your view on what happened too Stephen.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2013, 10:42:36 AM
The alert to the car was corroborated as Gerry's blood.
And from the apartment, wasn't the blood of Lino Henrique, a Portuguese officer identified?
Yes, thanks for correction, what I meant to say was that there was no forensic corroboration supporting Amaral's theory that Madeleine died in the apartment or was transported in the hire car.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Yes, thanks for correction, what I meant to say was that there was no forensic corroboration supporting Amaral's theory that Madeleine died in the apartment or was transported in the hire car.
Ah! Yes quite right.
I've often wondered if the McCanns would have been made arguidos at all if Grime had deployed his dogs professionally, as, I believe the Portuguese handlers actually did their dogs.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 06, 2013, 10:53:27 AM
ARE YOU COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF WHY POLICE FORCES AROUND THE WORLD USE DOGS.
Duh, duh and duh again.
without going over old ground again - of course police use dogs no one is saying that dogs are not a fantastic tool for a lot of cases - but in most cases you do need to find evidence that corroborates a dogs alert .
I use the scenario of say coming through customs and one of the many drug dogs at airports alerts to you - this happened to me - I wasn't arrested and imprisoned - I was searched and a piece of fruit was found in my hand luggage - the handler said it might have been that but he cant be 100% sure - my luggage and myself wa given a good search - they then thanked me for being patient and I was on my way,.
The point being that the dog smelt something - but I was 100% innocent of carrying drugs - nothing was found ie no corroborating evidence - you cant just go with the dogs as the only tool
The other thing about the alerts which doesn't make any sense - Even If I go with theory that Maddie died in flat and body was disposed that night- I just cannot for a minute think that a month later they went back to said very secure hiding place and moved in the hire care - but that must be the case as the dogs alerted to the car - ??
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 10:55:29 AM
Unfortunately, nobody can ask the dogs, a) they never could speak b) they're dead, i,e. they can never be tested for accuracy c) according to their own handler, Mr. Grime: Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.
Not ONE of the alerts were later corroborated by forensics, which according to Mr. Grime, render the dog alerts meaningless.
True, that's why those dogs have as much/little value as dowsing
Not dissing dowsing - but it's a game of chance - NOT science
If the dowsing rod indicates an underground stream/metal ore or whatever - and one cares to get a shovel out and dig - and finds no such thing.
Then the game is lost - simple as. Try again, another day.
No different to the dogs - they indicate and that indication needs to be corroberated by scientific evaluation - didn't happen in the McCann case.
Game over, woof, woof I'm afraid.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 10:57:55 AM
There has been a suggestion that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry arrived to do his check at 9pm, was possibly disturbed and hid until Gerry had left again.
Where did he hide ? If he was disturbed by Gerry he would in all probability have been in the children's bedroom and the first thing he would have known was Gerry opening the patio doors. From where Gerry would have been standing there is a direct line of sight to the children's bedroom so he couldn't have left the bedroom and we know from Amaral's documentary that it was virtually impossible to hide in the bedroom so where did he conceal himself ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 10:59:43 AM
if this was a planned abduction ie the culprits had been watching the flat for a few nights - then they will have known the 20 /30 minute check routine, - so it makes sense that as soon as a check was done and the checker left then that was the optimum time.
My own theory and nothing more than a theory - is that this was two people . One entered by the patio as it was known to be unlocked and then handed a sleeping or maybe even drugged Maddie out of the window to an accomplice who then just walked towards a waiting car which was parked a little way away. Acomplice leaves - meets up in car and then hits the road . They could be in Spain within the hour - certainly by the time the police got there and started to work out what happened.
This would take minutes - and would fit the timings - as soon as Gerry left the flat and started to walk away - perp one enters - places a handkerchief over maddies mouth - subdues her with some chloroform, or similar.- opens shutters and hands Maddie out to perp 2 -
And the Smith sighting ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:07:17 AM
A child missing. Raised shutters, open window, 4 eye witnesses, a forensic disaster - plus no motive, no means and no time for the parents or their friends to have removed Madeleine from 5A and disposed of her body. That's evidence to me.
Why don't you give us your theory of what happened Stephen?
Until we know exactly what happened that night we have no idea whether the McCanns had motive. If the parents or their friends are not telling the truth about the timeline that night there is certainly means and opportunity. There is no witness, not even their friends who passed by the very window several times, who saw that window or the shutters open before Ate's alarm so feasibly it could have been Kate who opened them.
Don't know what you mean about 4 eye witnesses so could you please explain ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:09:05 AM
My own opinion is that the Tanner sighting and the Smith sighting were of two different people . I cant see any potential snatch at say 9.10 ish to still be wandering the streets of town 50 minutes later.
Who knows who the smiths saw - it could have been a normal tourist wandering back from a restaurant/ bar with own child who for whatever reason didn't come forward - who knows. The pros and cons of the Smiths and what he did see have been discussed ad nauseam -
I just can see it being Gerry running around looking for a hiding place minutes before the discovery was scheduled to happen and he was needed to be back at the restaurant.-
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:16:26 AM
True, that's why those dogs have as much/little value as dowsing
Not dissing dowsing - but it's a game of chance - NOT science
If the dowsing rod indicates an underground stream/metal ore or whatever - and one cares to get a shovel out and dig - and finds no such thing.
Then the game is lost - simple as. Try again, another day.
No different to the dogs - they indicate and that indication needs to be corroberated by scientific evaluation - didn't happen in the McCann case.
Game over, woof, woof I'm afraid.
There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
Where did he hide. If he was disturbed by Gerry he would in all probability have been in the children's bedroom and the first thing he would have known was Gerry opening the patio doors. From where Gerry would have been standing there is a direct line of sight to the children's bedroom so he couldn't have left e bedroom and we know fromAmaral's documentary that it was virtually impossible to hide in the bedroom so where did he conceal himself ?
Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe. Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Lace on June 06, 2013, 11:17:38 AM
Yes police dogs are used around the world, but sometimes they get it wrong.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 11:21:37 AM
There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.
Mr. Prout did not kill his wife in the living room where the dog alerted. He killed her in a shooting lodge and then disposed of the body from there. The dog did not alert to the crime scene or the grave.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:23:22 AM
Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe. Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.
Amaral demonstrated it was impossible for an abductor to hide behind the bedroom door, besides the abductor would have to have moved the door to get behind it and Gerry would have noticed that and the cots where in front of the wardrobe doors so no hiding place there.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:25:20 AM
My own opinion is that the Tanner sighting and the Smith sighting were of two different people . I cant see any potential snatch at say 9.10 ish to still be wandering the streets of town 50 minutes later.
Who knows who the smiths saw - it could have been a normal tourist wandering back from a restaurant/ bar with own child who for whatever reason didn't come forward - who knows. The pros and cons of the Smiths and what he did see have been discussed ad nauseam -
I just can see it being Gerry running around looking for a hiding place minutes before the discovery was scheduled to happen and he was needed to be back at the restaurant.-
Gerry had the ability to be in two places at once including ordering and eating his dinner and chatting to Mr Wilkins while also being down town carrying a child according to some poor deluded souls. Unbelievable the stuff some gullible people believe even today with all the files available to read. Mr Smith must feel like a right plank after saying it was Gerry he saw. 8)-)))
My own view about the timings is that the abductor was extremely lucky not to have been challenged. He picked a moment in time in which Matthew Gerry and Jane as well as Mr Wilkins were all in the vicinity within minutes of each other.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 11:30:13 AM
A child missing. Raised shutters, open window, 4 eye witnesses, a forensic disaster - plus no motive, no means and no time for the parents or their friends to have removed Madeleine from 5A and disposed of her body. That's evidence to me.
Why don't you give us your theory of what happened Stephen?
There's no evidence of raised shutters, open window and photos show the curtains didn't fly. It doesn't mean that shutters and window weren't open. But there's no evidence an intruder did open them. About the motive, of course there's one, though it doesn't mean the body was disposed of.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:30:55 AM
Mr. Prout did not kill his wife in the living room where the dog alerted. He killed her in a shooting lodge and then disposed of the body from there. The dog did not alert to the crime scene or the grave.
Do we know enough about the sequence of events with regard to Prout's crime to even gauge that ? If the dog is not deployed in the vicinity of the odour, how are they to alert ? How long did the body remain in the shooting lodge, was it moved to the house prior to burial ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Lace on June 06, 2013, 11:31:13 AM
Rather a coincidence that they 'got it wrong ' with only items related to the McCanns then, isn't it ?
Eddie didn't alert to Gerry's clothes though, don't you think that strange?
Why was Sean's tee shirt alerted to?
Why was the garden alerted to?
Why wasn't the area behind the sofa alerted to? Eddie sniffed in the exact same spot that Keela did, where a tiny amount of what was thought blood, UNDER the tiles. Why not in the grout?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.
There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.
How many more times, the dogs don't produce evidence - just mere indications
If a rescue dog say in an earthquake zone - alerts to a person under rubble - diggers come out but no person is found - then the dog was wrong.
Of all the myriad of myths on these forums - the myth that
a)the dogs are infallible b)the dogs provide EVIDENCE
is by far the biggest one
Grime - said so himself Keela might have barked at a bumblebee flying past for all we know - if coppers on the ground and scientists in a lab don't corroberate the Indications with Evidence - they are not worth a tin of Pedigree - err, dog food
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: huggy on June 06, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
Rather a coincidence that they 'got it wrong ' with only items related to the McCanns then, isn't it ?
Eddie was familiar with cuddle cat as can be seen from the videos so kindly posted by members. My suggestion is that eddie reacted to Kates trousers just because of cross contamination with cuddle cat.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 11:33:35 AM
Gerry had the ability to be in two places at once including ordering and eating his dinner and chatting to Mr Wilkins while also being down town carrying a child according to some poor deluded souls. Unbelievable the stuff some gullible people believe even today with all the files available to read. Mr Smith must feel like a right plank after saying it was Gerry he saw. 8)-)))
My own view about the timings is that the abductor was extremely lucky not to have been challenged. He picked a moment in time in which Matthew Gerry and Jane as well as Mr Wilkins were all in the vicinity within minutes of each other.
It's been said a million times but obviously it's worth saying again. There are no independent witnesses that put Gerry at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 11:35:04 AM
Where did he hide ? If he was disturbed by Gerry he would in all probability have been in the children's bedroom and the first thing he would have known was Gerry opening the patio doors. From where Gerry would have been standing there is a direct line of sight to the children's bedroom so he couldn't have left the bedroom and we know from Amaral's documentary that it was virtually impossible to hide in the bedroom so where did he conceal himself ?
I can understand why they would have wondered: - the narrow window of opportunity; - the bedroom door being more open than usual.
I find it unlikely that someone could have been hiding in the children's bedroom:
- there may well not have been space to hide behind the door; - getting into the wardrobe may not have been feasible depending on how much space there actually was between the right-hand cot and the wardrobe; - there may (or not) have been enough space to crouch and hide at the far right-hand corner, near the chair; - it would have required total silence.
On the other hand, if there had been someone in there, the first noise would quite possibly be the gate. It would have been risky to hide in the parents' bedroom (in case someone decided to get an extra layer of clothing or something else), but less risky than hiding anywhere else.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 11:36:33 AM
There are independent witnesses placing Gerry McCann at the OC minutes after the alarm was raised, if he was seen by Smith on his way to the beach, how did he get there? Time travel?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:39:30 AM
Eddie didn't alert to Gerry's clothes though, don't you think that strange?
Why was Sean's tee shirt alerted to?
Why was the garden alerted to?
Why wasn't the area behind the sofa alerted to? Eddie sniffed in the exact same spot that Keela did, where a tiny amount of what was thought blood, UNDER the tiles. Why not in the grout?
Gerry could have taken the clothes he had worn that night home with him.
Contamination from a an item that had been in contact with the body.
A fall from the small balcony into the garden, where the body was discovered.
The area behind the back of the sofa was alerted to by both Eddie and Keela.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 11:42:07 AM
There are independent witnesses placing Gerry McCann at the OC minutes after the alarm was raised, if he was seen by Smith on his way to the beach, how did he get there? Time travel?
SOLVED the case just there - Gerry has an evil, identical twin - who carried out the dastardly act
B-movie stuff maybe - but much more plausible than some constructs on here and elsewhere
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 11:42:52 AM
Oh good were back at the walking dead again, if Madeleine fell FROM the balcony into the flowerbed & accidentally met her death, did she run back in again & made sure to fall from sofa too? Or was it the other way around?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 11:43:00 AM
Amaral demonstrated it was impossible for an abductor to hide behind the bedroom door, besides the abductor would have to have moved the door to get behind it and Gerry would have noticed that and the cots where in front of the wardrobe doors so no hiding place there.
The guy had no belly or at least wasn't described like having one, so he could fit behind the bedroom door. Mr McCann precisely found it "more" open than he'd left it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
How many more times, the dogs don't produce evidence - just mere indications
If a rescue dog say in an earthquake zone - alerts to a person under rubble - diggers come out but no person is found - then the dog was wrong.
Of all the myriad of myths on these forums - the myth that
a)the dogs are infallible b)the dogs provide EVIDENCE
is by far the biggest one
Grime - said so himself Keela might have barked at a bumblebee flying past for all we know - if coppers on the ground and scientists in a lab don't corroberate the Indications with Evidence - they are not worth a tin of Pedigree - err, dog food
I am quite aware of all of the above. As the case stands the dog alerts give cause for further investigation but are not evidence, by themselves, of foul play. The point I was making is that that may not always be the case and I gave examples of dog alerts having been shown, many years after the crime, to be correct.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:50:55 AM
I can understand why they would have wondered: - the narrow window of opportunity; - the bedroom door being more open than usual.
I find it unlikely that someone could have been hiding in the children's bedroom:
- there may well not have been space to hide behind the door; - getting into the wardrobe may not have been feasible depending on how much space there actually was between the right-hand cot and the wardrobe; - there may (or not) have been enough space to crouch and hide at the far right-hand corner, near the chair; - it would have required total silence.
On the other hand, if there had been someone in there, the first noise would quite possibly be the gate. It would have been risky to hide in the parents' bedroom (in case someone decided to get an extra layer of clothing or something else), but less risky than hiding anywhere else.
So when do you think the window was opened ? Before Gerry entered the apartment in case the abductor needed an escape route or after, when there was a perfectly accessible, and less conspicuous, door to use ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 11:55:32 AM
The guy had no belly or at least wasn't described like having one, so he could fit behind the bedroom door. Mr McCann precisely found it "more" open than he'd left it.
Thank you, Anne. I had forgotten about the door being more open than The McCanns left it, and again when Kate went to check.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:55:55 AM
There are independent witnesses placing Gerry McCann at the OC minutes after the alarm was raised, if he was seen by Smith on his way to the beach, how did he get there? Time travel?
Firstly there are no independent witnesses but if you think there are perhaps you can post their statements for us ? Secondly we have no idea where the man the Smiths saw was going, or indeed, went. He may have turned right at the bottom of the road, placed the body in a concealed area and continued up the hill, all feasible in the time.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 11:56:22 AM
The guy had no belly or at least wasn't described like having one, so he could fit behind the bedroom door. Mr McCann precisely found it "more" open than he'd left it.
Well, let's face it, you are in an apartment where you are not supposed to be, you suddenly hear someone entering, what do you do?
It's not as though you have a lot of choices. Hide under the bed? (According to the pictures of the beds used, there was no space). Hide behind the curtains? (Too flimsy, short & in direct line of view). Hide in the wardrobe? (You'll make a noise opening & closing the doors) Hide behind the door? Not ideal & very risky, pretty much the only option left.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 11:56:44 AM
The guy had no belly or at least wasn't described like having one, so he could fit behind the bedroom door. Mr McCann precisely found it "more" open than he'd left it.
No belly?
Slim pickings
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:01:38 PM
Oh good were back at the walking dead again, if Madeleine fell FROM the balcony into the flowerbed & accidentally met her death, did she run back in again & made sure to fall from sofa too? Or was it the other way around?
Taken from the flowerbed and concealed for a time behind the sofa ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:04:21 PM
We've already gone through this. Gerry McCann is not superman, he can't be in two places at the same time. Apart from that, nobody has come up with a single good argument, let alone proof, that any of the Tapas group, (some friends, some mere acquaintances of the McCanns) were LYING in their witness statements to police. Without providing proof that they WERE lying, their witness statements are as valid as those of anyone else.
Here you go http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1234.0
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:08:17 PM
Taken from the flowerbed and concealed for a time behind the sofa ?
Have you looked at the photos of those apartments? FULL view from the street, in a rather busy holiday resort at dinner time, FULL view from the surrounding apartments where people in those apartments were most likely having dinners ON those balconies & NOBODY noticed a dead child in the flowerbed? Utterly insane proposition.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 12:09:23 PM
The guy had no belly or at least wasn't described like having one, so he could fit behind the bedroom door. Mr McCann precisely found it "more" open than he'd left it.
Even without a big belly, a jacket would take up volume.
IFFF someone had been in that apartment, the parents' bedroom still seems more likely to me (there would have been time, and I haven't dismissed a burglary gone wrong).
A different possibility would depend on whether the bathroom had a bathtub or not and on whether the curtain was generally drawn after a shower/bath or left open.
Or the kitchen area - but that seems risky unless there was a dark area. On the other hand, kitchens offer more implements to temporarily incapacitate someone and escape.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 12:11:32 PM
Oh good were back at the walking dead again, if Madeleine fell FROM the balcony into the flowerbed & accidentally met her death, did she run back in again & made sure to fall from sofa too? Or was it the other way around?
Some fall from balconies and meet their fate. If one finds a child in an unusual position and immobile in a dark flowerbed, wouldn't the first idea be to take it in one's arms and bring it to light ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 12:13:11 PM
Some fall from balconies and meet their fate. If one finds a child in an usual position and immobile in a dark flowerbed, wouldn't the first idea be to take it in one's arms and bring it to light ?
Behind a sofa?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 12:20:05 PM
Have you looked at the photos of those apartments? FULL view from the street, in a rather busy holiday resort at dinner time, FULL view from the surrounding apartments where people in those apartments were most likely having dinners ON those balconies & NOBODY noticed a dead child in the flowerbed? Utterly insane proposition.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id129.html
There is a photo of the area of the flowerbed about a third of the way down the page I have posted the link to. I'm sure you'll agree it was a very concealed spot.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
No, the 5A "garden" was in full view of the street & being a 1st floor apartment it was also in full view of all the apartments on higher floors of the ENTIRE surrounding area. Not concealed at all.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 12:42:11 PM
We've already gone through this. Gerry McCann is not superman, he can't be in two places at the same time. Apart from that, nobody has come up with a single good argument, let alone proof, that any of the Tapas group, (some friends, some mere acquaintances of the McCanns) were LYING in their witness statements to police. Without providing proof that they WERE lying, their witness statements are as valid as those of anyone else.
Here you go http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1234.0
Superman has a ubiquity gift ? Who says the Tapas group lied ? Even Magalhaes e Menezes spoke of un-truths ! I'm pretty sure none of them would have stated Mr McCann was sitting at the table if he wasn't. Imagine he had left because, for instance, he suddenly remembered he had forgotten his sunglasses near the pool, they certainly would have told it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 12:44:13 PM
No, the 5A "garden" was in full view of the street & being a 1st floor apartment it was also in full view of all the apartments on higher floors of the ENTIRE surrounding area. Not concealed at all.
I've been there, have you ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:53:48 PM
Superman has a ubiquity gift ? Who says the Tapas group lied ? Even Magalhaes e Menezes spoke of un-truths ! I'm pretty sure none of them would have stated Mr McCann was sitting at the table if he wasn't. Imagine he had left because, for instance, he suddenly remembered he had forgotten his sunglasses near the pool, they certainly would have told it.
Some here clearly ARE implying that all of the witnesses at the McCann table are to be distrusted as they are not "independent" i.e. they are implying that they are dishonest and that their witness statements therefore are to be discounted. It's simply not acceptable to do so, legally & even morally, without providing firm proof that they are indeed lying.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:54:56 PM
So when do you think the window was opened ? Before Gerry entered the apartment in case the abductor needed an escape route or after, when there was a perfectly accessible, and less conspicuous, door to use ?
Window and shutters?
The window may have been open (or partially open) at that stage without the shutters lifted (too much noise to alert someone coming up the steps and not enough time to get out anyway).
What disturbs me is that the window / shutter issue could have been a red herring for anyone who could have been traced to a key. Not necessarily a staff member, but someone associated with one; or quite simply someone who could have stolen various keys, made copies and put them back where they were supposed to be before the person who had legitimate access noticed.
What disturbs me further is that the investigation seemed more interested in where the photographic paper came from (a legitimate line of inquiry, but which could have been easily resolved much earlier) than duplicate key issues.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Lace on June 06, 2013, 12:56:36 PM
It's been said a million times but obviously it's worth saying again. There are no independent witnesses that put Gerry at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.
Except that according to Dianne Webster's statement, Kate came running to the table and said 'she's gone GERRY' now why would she say that if Gerry was not there?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:59:51 PM
Gerry could have taken the clothes he had worn that night home with him.
Contamination from a an item that had been in contact with the body.
A fall from the small balcony into the garden, where the body was discovered.
The area behind the back of the sofa was alerted to by both Eddie and Keela.
So, Gerry disposes of the clothes he was wearing, but doesn't dispose of Kate's? Doesn't dispose of Cuddle Cat? Doesn't dispose of the tee shirt that came in contact with the body?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 01:02:21 PM
The area behind the back of the sofa was alerted to by both Eddie and Keela.
What did Keela react to?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 01:09:46 PM
The window may have been open (or partially open) at that stage without the shutters lifted (too much noise to alert someone coming up the steps and not enough time to get out anyway).
What disturbs me is that the window / shutter issue could have been a red herring for anyone who could have been traced to a key. Not necessarily a staff member, but someone associated with one; or quite simply someone who could have stolen various keys, made copies and put them back where they were supposed to be before the person who had legitimate access noticed.
What disturbs me further is that the investigation seemed more interested in where the photographic paper came from (a legitimate line of inquiry, but which could have been easily resolved much earlier) than duplicate key issues.
You know, the lack of investigation into the key issue has disturbed me from the very start. Not to mention that cleaning staff appears to be able to enter the apartments even when keys were IN the locks on the inside.
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
I've been in the area once or twice years ago, yes, why do you need to know? The pictures show enough, don't you think?
No, I don't think they do. Only someone passing the gate would see a child on a flowerbed in the darkness of the patio, if the child had light colour clothes on.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 01:27:57 PM
No, I don't think they do. Only someone passing the gate would see a child on a flowerbed in the darkness of the patio, if the child had light colour clothes on.
No, as my link above shows, there were people in the apartments surrounding the McCann's apartment too.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 01:42:46 PM
Amaral demonstrated it was impossible for an abductor to hide behind the bedroom door, besides the abductor would have to have moved the door to get behind it and Gerry would have noticed that and the cots where in front of the wardrobe doors so no hiding place there.
Sorry Faith, you are wrong! The door opens towards the wardrobes, and there is a recess behind it, when open.
Please, Mrs B, don't accuse me of accusing, you know perfectly well I didn't. I even, above, said I didn't believe the Tapas group had lied ! Now Mr MacKenzie, the one who was so surprised to hear Mr McCann (identified later) speaking of paedophile gangs on the phone and said he "felt as if (he) were intruding on a private moment", doesn't say in his statement to the LC in december 2007 that he saw a peeping Tom on a balcony on the 3rd of May night. He only mentions having found cigarette butts of no determined age and thought this balcony was a good place to spot on the G5A. As he was only there in daytime, we can't infer the visibility at night. Tabloids are no reference, imo.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 02:17:52 PM
Please, Mrs B, don't accuse me of accusing, you know perfectly well I didn't. I even, above, said I didn't believe the Tapas group had lied ! Now Mr MacKenzie, the one who was so surprised to hear Mr McCann (identified later) speaking of paedophile gangs on the phone and said he "felt as if (he) were intruding on a private moment", doesn't say in his statement to the LC in december 2007 that he saw a peeping Tom on a balcony on the 3rd of May night. He only mentions having found cigarette butts of no determined age and thought this balcony was a good place to spot on the G5A. As he was only there in daytime, we can't infer the visibility at night. Tabloids are no reference, imo.
Excuse me. Who heard Gerry McCann speaking about Paedophile Gangs on the telephone?
I think that even I might need a Cite for that one.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
An abductor hiding in the apartment makes no sense in a number of ways
Firstly, we are told, by the McCanns themselves, that they were being 'watched' for a few days, and that the abductor had become aware of their checking regime
So why would this abductor watch the McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30pm, then wait half an hour before going into the apartment at the exact time he knew a check was due ?
Secondly, even if the abductor was stupid enough to put himself in the apartment when a check was due ( or if he was, in fact, an opportunistic abductor who had not been watching the McCanns at all, and had no idea that a check was due ) there is still the business of where to hide
The first he would have known would be Gerry sliding the patio door open and walking in. At that point, Gerry was already looking straight ahead at the children's bedroom in front of him, with it's wider than usual open door
The abductor could not have moved from anywhere else in the room to get himself behind the door without passing directly in Gerry's line of vision ( he would have to have already been standing behind the door when Gerry came in )
As to hiding in the wardrobe, even if it was accessible ( the cots ), and even if was relatively empty ( which it would have to be ) he would still, without question, make some noise doing it. The apartment was still and quiet and Gerry would almost certainly have heard someone getting in the wardrobe
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 02:23:33 PM
No, as my link above shows, there were people in the apartments surrounding the McCann's apartment too.
I don't understand your point, Mrs. B. What are you suggesting ? That if by misfortune Madeleine had fallen from the balcony and broken his crown, somebody in the surrounding flats, would have seen her ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 06, 2013, 02:24:39 PM
I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .
The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role " I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere
Also can anyone really accept that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 02:27:07 PM
Please, Mrs B, don't accuse me of accusing, you know perfectly well I didn't. I even, above, said I didn't believe the Tapas group had lied ! Now Mr MacKenzie, the one who was so surprised to hear Mr McCann (identified later) speaking of paedophile gangs on the phone and said he "felt as if (he) were intruding on a private moment", doesn't say in his statement to the LC in december 2007 that he saw a peeping Tom on a balcony on the 3rd of May night. He only mentions having found cigarette butts of no determined age and thought this balcony was a good place to spot on the G5A. As he was only there in daytime, we can't infer the visibility at night. Tabloids are no reference, imo.
No, you said that the ONLY way someone could spot a child in a flowerbed was if they walked past the apartment. I stated that there are apartments surrounding 5A & higher up where people have full view into the "garden" of 5A. Though the area wasn't well lit (that's changed now btw) it was by no means in absolute darkness, you'd still be able to make out a child's body in a flowerbed from apts. facing or on the side of 5A.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 02:29:43 PM
I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .
The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role " I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere
Also can anyone really accept that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on
Exactly. The whole thing is logistically impossible. Which is one of the things that Scotland Yard will have ascertained.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 02:30:31 PM
An abductor hiding in the apartment makes no sense in a number of ways
Firstly, we are told, by the McCanns themselves, that they were being 'watched' for a few days, and that the abductor had become aware of their checking regime
So why would this abductor watch the McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30pm, then wait half an hour before going into the apartment at the exact time he knew a check was due ?
Secondly, even if the abductor was stupid enough to put himself in the apartment when a check was due ( or if he was, in fact, an opportunistic abductor who had not been watching the McCanns at all, and had no idea that a check was due ) there is still the business of where to hide
The first he would have known would be Gerry sliding the patio door open and walking in. At that point, Gerry was already looking straight ahead at the children's bedroom in front of him, with it's wider than usual open door
The abductor could not have moved from anywhere else in the room to get himself behind the door without passing directly in Gerry's line of vision ( he would have to have already been standing behind the door when Gerry came in )
As to hiding in the wardrobe, even if it was accessible ( the cots ), and even if was relatively empty ( which it would have to be ) he would still, without question, make some noise doing it. The apartment was still and quiet and Gerry would almost certainly have heard someone getting in the wardrobe
If you read up, I find it relatively unlikely that someone was hiding in that bedroom at the time.
I don't find it implausible that someone could have been in that apartment at that time.
An initial alerting sound would not have been the sliding door, but the gate at the entrance.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .
The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role " I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere
Also can anyone really accept that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on
If there was collusion, Gerry must have been furious with Kate for raising the "alarm" before Gerry had even got down to the beach.
And where is the evidence that Kate and Gerry were ever, at any point, simultaneously absent from the restaurant between the point of their (joint) arrival and Kate's alert?
If non-existent (it is!), then that puts paid to allthemccannsdunit theories.
Well, OK, not quite all.
There are some so far-fetched even Amaral doesn't entertain them.
But let's not go there ...
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
I don't understand your point, Mrs. B. What are you suggesting ? That if by misfortune Madeleine had fallen from the balcony and broken his crown, somebody in the surrounding flats, would have seen her ?
Crown? You mean neck or that she'd fatally injured her head? You don't fall from a height like that without sustaining multiple injuries, just the act of a body hitting a hard surface would be enough to crack the skull & break the skin of that individual, i.e. blood would have been found, likely in abundance. If skull was cracked open, blood & brain matter would have seeped out. Where's the evidence?
ETA What would you do if you found your daughter dead in a flowerbed? Scream your head off until someone came to help you or calmly lift her up & dump her dead body behind the sofa? Talk about absurdities....
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 02:43:42 PM
No, you said that the ONLY way someone could spot a child in a flowerbed was if they walked past the apartment. I stated that there are apartments surrounding 5A & higher up where people have full view into the "garden" of 5A. Though the area wasn't well lit (that's changed now btw) it was by no means in absolute darkness, you'd still be able to make out a child's body in a flowerbed from apts. facing or on the side of 5A.
I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed. Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 02:44:49 PM
Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe. Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.
Or in the kitchen? - I believe the door to the kitchen was opposite Madeleine's bedroom door. I'm not absolutely sure but I think Diane Webster suggested the kitchen.
IMO it would be depend a lot on whether two people were involved - with one warning the other when he saw Gerry leave the table and head back towards the apartment.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 02:46:08 PM
I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed. Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?
Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 02:48:06 PM
I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed. Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?
I always said a reconstruction would have been useful, in May 2007 with the majority of potential witnesses still available, it would have been. I sincerely doubt the value of it over a year later.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 02:49:26 PM
Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?
Sort of, but not a lot. Martin Grime said that he needed to come back in daylight. But we never heard about the result of that. So presumably nothing was found.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 02:51:47 PM
Sort of, but not a lot. Martin Grime said that he needed to come back in daylight. But we never heard about the result of that. So presumably nothing was found.
I do know that cuttings from the flowerbed were sent to the FSS on the advice of some bod called Jonathon Smith (I think) from the FSS, and that they checked for traces of blood but found none.
A slight aside, but an interesting one, that is the only place in the whole of John Lowe's report where the word "blood" is explicitly used ...
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
Rather a coincidence that they 'got it wrong ' with only items related to the McCanns then, isn't it ?
Not really IMO. If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.
Take the cars for instance. The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds. Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted.
If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.
And if Grime had made Eddie return to all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.
It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:00:42 PM
Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?
Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.
- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 03:03:32 PM
Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.
- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
In his rogatory interview, Grime was quizzed closely about whether anything could be deduced about the dog's certainty from the conviction (or otherwise) of the bark.
He was quite certain it could not ...
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 03:08:05 PM
Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.
- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
Oh, good God. Dogs can do a "Maybe" now, can they?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 03:11:33 PM
Until we know exactly what happened that night we have no idea whether the McCanns had motive. If the parents or their friends are not telling the truth about the timeline that night there is certainly means and opportunity. There is no witness, not even their friends who passed by the very window several times, who saw that window or the shutters open before Ate's alarm so feasibly it could have been Kate who opened them.
Don't know what you mean about 4 eye witnesses so could you please explain ?
None of their friends passed by the 'very' window. They didn't walk anywhere near the window. Have you not seen the photographs of the front of the apartment block showing the route people took to return to their apartments across the car park?
The 4 eye witnesses are Jane Tanner and the 3 Smiths.
If you can think of a credible motive and how - without any knowledge of the area and no car they carried out this deed then I would be very interested to hear it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:12:19 PM
Not really IMO. If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.
Take the cars for instance. The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds. Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted.
If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.
And if Grime had made Eddie return to all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.
It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.
Yes, the whole dog business rather falls down on that as well, both dogs were supposedly trained to alert to human blood. Anybody noticed the absolute lack traces of blood, in a holiday resort, APART from in apt 5A?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 03:13:26 PM
Oh, good God. Dogs can do a "Maybe" now, can they?
Grime's rogatory:
Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.
I've spotted something else interesting.
But I'll return to that
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 03:17:21 PM
Yes, the whole dog business rather falls down on that as well, both dogs were supposedly trained to alert to human blood. Anybody noticed the absolute lack traces of blood, in a holiday resort, APART from in apt 5A?
Yes, it is quite extraordinary that the only places anyone bled are The McCanns' car and the McCanns' apartment, nowhere else ...
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 03:20:19 PM
Not really IMO. If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.
Take the cars for instance. The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds. Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted.
If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.
And if Grime had made Eddie return to all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.
It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.
I suggest you do your citizen duty, Benice, and send your remarks to the Yorkshire Police, with copy to the NPIA ? Unfortunately Madeleine's case isn't unique.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:20:44 PM
Yes, isn't it just? And strangely enough, nobody bothered to ask Mr. Grime about this extraordinary circumstance.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:22:29 PM
I suggest you do your citizen duty, Benice, and send your remarks to the Yorkshire Police, with copy to the NPIA ? Unfortunately Madeleine's case isn't unique.
No need Anne, NPIA are more than aware of the short comings of the dogs, even Eddie gets a mention.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 03:27:57 PM
Another thread derailed, with the dogs. Waste of time!
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:35:36 PM
Yes, back on track. So we have established that an abductor had enough time to enter apartment & pick up Madeleine & walk out again. He could also have hid in the apartment, behind door or in closet, while Gerry McCann was in the apartment. What else?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .
The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role " I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere
Also can anyone really accept that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on
Also - if that was Gerry the Smiths saw - then he was still on his way to wherever he was going and had not even reached his destination at that point. And then - after having arrived wherever he was going to (the beach?) - he then had to hide/bury/ the body. (how and what with is another question) Then having done that he had to go all the way back to the Apartment - change his clothes and join the others. It's just not physically possible for him to have done all that in the timescale.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 03:52:34 PM
This has always been my argument. Logistics. Not possible for The McCanns to kill and hide the body of their daughter. But possible for an abductor to have taken Madeleine.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 03:55:07 PM
Yes, back on track. So we have established that an abductor had enough time to enter apartment & pick up Madeleine & walk out again. He could also have hid in the apartment, behind door or in closet, while Gerry McCann was in the apartment. What else?
Have we ?
Could we recap these 'established' facts ?
What was the period of time the abductor had to carry out the crime established to have been ?
What elements necessary to commit the crime were established ? What was the abductor's point of entry, and how long would that have taken ... were the three children likely to have drugged, and, if so, how long would that have taken ... were the window and shutters opened for a specific reason, and how much time was allowed for the abductor to have done that ... what was the abductor's point of exit, and long would it take him to get to the point in the road where Jane Tanner says she saw him ?
I don't think very much has been 'established' at all, thus far
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 04:00:42 PM
If there was collusion, Gerry must have been furious with Kate for raising the "alarm" before Gerry had even got down to the beach.And where is the evidence that Kate and Gerry were ever, at any point, simultaneously absent from the restaurant between the point of their (joint) arrival and Kate's alert?
If non-existent (it is!), then that puts paid to allthemccannsdunit theories.
Well, OK, not quite all.
There are some so far-fetched even Amaral doesn't entertain them.
But let's not go there ...
Which brings us back to the question - if this was all planned - then why would anyone with half a brain cell choose such a complicated convoluted plan, involving the co-operation of 7 other people - when all the McCanns had to do was dispose of the body in the dead of night - return to 5A - go to bed, call the police the next morning and say they got up to find the front door wide open and Madeleine missing. No need to involve anyone else whatsoever in that simple plan.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 04:01:52 PM
Enter the apartment through which ever point of entry you prefer, pick up sleeping child, exit the apartment - 45 secs - 1 minute. Ample time.
Enter apartment through whatever entry point of choice, disturbed by Gerry entering the apartment - abductor hiding in either closet or behind door, wait until Gerry leaves, exist apartment. Even more time available.
What else?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
Carana, what has where the cot was, got to do with the recess behind the door?
Don't forget the cots were moved, between forensic photo's, being done. If the cot was that near the wardrobe, how did Kate get to the window?
My thought concerns the width of the door.
If it opened completely without knocking on the edge of the wardrobe. If it didn't (i.e. if it could be opened completely against the wall, then there would not have been much space in terms of a recess.
If the edge did catch against the corner of the wardrobe, then there may well have been more space and the fact of not being able to open it fully may not seemed strange.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 04:05:55 PM
This has always been my argument. Logistics. Not possible for The McCanns to kill and hide the body of their daughter. But possible for an abductor to have taken Madeleine.
Yes, and that's perhaps why the anti McCann skeptics are so unwilling to present a possible scenario as to HOW this "fake abduction" did occur? Though we have gleaned SOME clues here, i.e. some apparently think the following scenario makes sense: Madeleine fell from balcony into flowerbed, Kate found her, carried her up the stairs & chucked her unceremoniously behind the sofa.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 04:08:36 PM
If it opened completely without knocking on the edge of the wardrobe. If it didn't (i.e. if it could be opened completely against the wall, then there would not have been much space in terms of a recess.
If the edge did catch against the corner of the wardrobe, then there may well have been more space and the fact of not being able to open it fully may not seemed strange.
I was under the impression that the door opened the other way ... towards the wall against which Madeleine's bed rested ( rather than towards the wardrobes, and window )
Was I wrong ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 04:10:10 PM
Prof Harrison's opinion is different and I'm prone to trust him. These dogs are too sensitive : they were right in detecting smell of death in old furniture ! Nothing of that kind in the G5A though. The fact they can't identify corpses since all humans smell the same is no news. Even the best device built to substitute dogs' nose will do no better.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 04:12:14 PM
I was under the impression that the door opened the other way ... towards the wall against which Madeleine's bed rested ( rather than towards the wardrobes, and window )
Was I wrong ?
I'm not sure. I don't find the photo very clear. Was it taken off its hinges when the photo was taken?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
I was under the impression that the door opened the other way ... towards the wall against which Madeleine's bed rested ( rather than towards the wardrobes, and window )
Was I wrong ?
Yes you were !
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 06, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and leave the apartment at 9.00
As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked ) 30 secs
Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child 1 minute
Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows say another 2 minutes
Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road 2 minutes
He then exits the way he came in through the patio and catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place
He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep
This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2013, 04:18:15 PM
There is what looks like a hinge on the left (but no upper hinge).
It looks to me as if it had been taken off its hinges - although why remains a mystery.
IFFF the door opened towards the left (towards the bed), then no one could have been hiding in a recess between the entry-side of the cupboard and the door.
IFF it opened towards the right, then... maybe, depending on whether the door opened fully or not.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 04:21:05 PM
Prof Harrison's opinion is different and I'm prone to trust him. These dogs are too sensitive : they were right in detecting smell of death in old furniture ! Nothing of that kind in the G5A though. The fact they can't identify corpses since all humans smell the same is no news. Even the best device built to substitute dogs' nose will do no better.
Really, where is the reports that confirm that no second hand furniture was in the apartment Anne, because as per normal, I cannot find any sign of PJ ever having checked where the furniture came from? After all, it's not unusual that you furnish rental apartments with 2nd hand furniture in holiday resorts.
Nor can I find any reports on PJ checking that any of the guests brought in 2nd hand items OR inherited items, e.g. perhaps a suitcase bought on ebay, any other item that may have been owned by other persons other than themselves in the past?
Most odd, isn't it, since we KNOW that the dogs alert to items "bought from dwellings where the owner had died".
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
Please answer me this Icabod if you can - it has been established by the experts with all the facts, ie: Scotland Yard that there was a window of opportunity for an abductor to remove Madeleine McCann from the apartment - WHY IS THIS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU?!!
No need to shout Martha !
As it happens, I agree that there was a window of opportunity during which an abduction may have occured ... just not the one the McCanns inexplicably insist on
I think the 'real' window of opportunity was much wider than the 3 minute timescale prefered by Kate and Gerry ... I think an abduction was possible at any time after Gerry last saw Madeleine ( 9'15pm ) and the time Kate found her missing ( 10.05pm )
It may be that Scotland Yard have the same broader window of opportunity in mind too. They have certainly never specified an abduction occured in the exact way the McCanns insist it did
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 04:28:45 PM
There is what looks like a hinge on the left (but no upper hinge).
It looks to me as if it had been taken off its hinges - although why remains a mystery.
IFFF the door opened towards the left (towards the bed), then no one could have been hiding in a recess between the entry-side of the cupboard and the door.
IFF it opened towards the right, then... maybe, depending on whether the door opened fully or not.
That's doesn't look like a hinge, you HANG doors on hinges, that looks like the metal piece that enables the door to stay shut.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 04:30:36 PM
There is what looks like a hinge on the left (but no upper hinge).
It looks to me as if it had been taken off its hinges - although why remains a mystery.
IFFF the door opened towards the left (towards the bed), then no one could have been hiding in a recess between the entry-side of the cupboard and the door.
IFF it opened towards the right, then... maybe, depending on whether the door opened fully or not.
Yes I was wrong carana
I just checked in Kate's book, where there is a diagram of the apartment, showing the ways the doors opened
The bedroom door definately opened towards the wardrobe
( thanks for putting me straight )
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 04:42:01 PM
Really, where is the reports that confirm that no second hand furniture was in the apartment Anne, because as per normal, I cannot find any sign of PJ ever having checked where the furniture came from? After all, it's not unusual that you furnish rental apartments with 2nd hand furniture in holiday resorts.
Nor can I find any reports on PJ checking that any of the guests brought in 2nd hand items OR inherited items, e.g. perhaps a suitcase bought on ebay, any other item that may have been owned by other persons other than themselves in the past?
Most odd, isn't it, since we KNOW that the dogs alert to items "bought from dwellings where the owner had died".
In the bedroom corner I see no furniture. No furniture also on the balcony. I agree the sofa is dubious. Don't forget this is presumption, no certitude of course.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 04:51:30 PM
In the bedroom corner I see no furniture. No furniture also on the balcony. I agree the sofa is dubious. Don't forget this is presumption, no certitude of course.
Was the sofa moved though, between forensic photo shots, Anne?
Like the cots were moved!
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 04:54:53 PM
Yes, all presumptions, because it was never checked by the PJ.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
Then why were you disputing that it has been established that there was a window of opportunity for an abductor to strike?
This thread is not about a window of opportunity in the whole, it is specific to the man Jane Tanner saw, and what window of opportunity he would have had, if he was, indeed, the abductor
That is what has not been established
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 05:10:01 PM
Crown? You mean neck or that she'd fatally injured her head? You don't fall from a height like that without sustaining multiple injuries, just the act of a body hitting a hard surface would be enough to crack the skull & break the skin of that individual, i.e. blood would have been found, likely in abundance. If skull was cracked open, blood & brain matter would have seeped out. Where's the evidence?
ETA What would you do if you found your daughter dead in a flowerbed? Scream your head off until someone came to help you or calmly lift her up & dump her dead body behind the sofa? Talk about absurdities....
It would be quite possible for Madeleine to have landed badly, broken her neck and there be no blood.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 05:15:57 PM
the door is definitely right openng, see here at 9.00 mins, and going by that clip I would say its impossible a man was squeezed behnd the door
Eta I agree with a previous comment, if it was planned, and they were being watched it would not have occurred right at the time a check was being made or due
The other argument against this being the time is Matt seeing no window or shutters open or wind blowing through the curtains or feel the cold or see doors slam on his later check
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 05:19:46 PM
Only thing is, wouldn't chloroform leave quite a strong residual scent for some time that would be easily detectable?
Chloroform doesn't smell if it is made properly. I did all f this on Google during The Casey Anthony Trial.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 05:31:04 PM
Southoftheriver:
Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and leave the apartment at 9.00
As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked ) 30 secs
Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child 1 minute
Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows say another 2 minutes
Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road 2 minutes
He then exits the way he came in through the patio and catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place
He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep
This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away
------
Only it doesnt fit with Tanners sighting as she walked past Gerry and Jez chatting at the bottom of the stairs, man couldnt have entered or exited that way after Gerrys check and be seen by Tanner as well
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 05:32:04 PM
An abductor hiding in the apartment makes no sense in a number of ways
Firstly, we are told, by the McCanns themselves, that they were being 'watched' for a few days, and that the abductor had become aware of their checking regime
So why would this abductor watch the McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30pm, then wait half an hour before going into the apartment at the exact time he knew a check was due ? Secondly, even if the abductor was stupid enough to put himself in the apartment when a check was due ( or if he was, in fact, an opportunistic abductor who had not been watching the McCanns at all, and had no idea that a check was due ) there is still the business of where to hide
The first he would have known would be Gerry sliding the patio door open and walking in. At that point, Gerry was already looking straight ahead at the children's bedroom in front of him, with it's wider than usual open door
The abductor could not have moved from anywhere else in the room to get himself behind the door without passing directly in Gerry's line of vision ( he would have to have already been standing behind the door when Gerry came in )
As to hiding in the wardrobe, even if it was accessible ( the cots ), and even if was relatively empty ( which it would have to be ) he would still, without question, make some noise doing it. The apartment was still and quiet and Gerry would almost certainly have heard someone getting in the wardrobe
IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant. They would also have observed Matt(?) doing a check at the window of 5A just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on. But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide. (That is if he did) The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 05:32:50 PM
the door is definitely right openng, see here at 9.00 mins, and going by that clip I would say its impossible a man was squeezed behnd the door
Eta I agree with a previous comment, if it was planned, and they were being watched it would not have occurred right at the time a check was being made or due
The other argument against this being the time is Matt seeing no window or shutters open or wind blowing through the curtains on his later check
Thank you Redblossom and you are right, the clip demonstrates brilliantly that there was simply no room for an average sized man to hide behind the door.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 05:35:31 PM
Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and leave the apartment at 9.00
As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked ) 30 secs
Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child 1 minute
Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows say another 2 minutes
Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road 2 minutes
He then exits the way he came in through the patio and catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place
He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep
This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away
If the abductor didn't enter the apartment until after Gerry had done his check, and left, why did Gerry find the bedroom door to be open wider than he had left it ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 05:35:37 PM
IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant. They would also have observed Matt(?) doing a check at the window of 5A just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on. But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide. (That is if he did) The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.
I think that's a reasonable explanation Benice
Thankyou
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
Really, you have a lot of experience of throwing kids out from balconies, do you?
ETA Notice that nice, wide, hard cement border around the flowerbed?
IMO Icab if the abductor(s) had been watching the Mcanns for days, they would know they were part of a group of friends, and would wait untl the whole group were safely settled at the Tapas Restaurant before they made their move - rather than risk bumping into some of the others when they were making their way to the restaurant. They would also have observed Matt(?) doing a check at the window of 5A just before 9.00 and so probably thought they had 30 mins from there on. But Gerry unexpectedly got up at 9.05 to do another check - which would explain why the abductor would need to hide. (That is if he did) The fact that Gerry thought the door was open more than how they'd left it makes me think the abductor probably did hide.
If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 06:11:58 PM
If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?
And come back in again when Gerry had left ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?
I think that is quite feasible Mrs. B. especially as IMO the abductor both entered and left by the front door.
Even Amaral said that it was possible a duplicate key was used.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 06:15:42 PM
Thank you Redblossom and you are right, the clip demonstrates brilliantly that there was simply no room for an average sized man to hide behind the door.
If you look at this one of Amarals, it shows a better size on the gap, 3.15 on video 8-)(--)
ETA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxGhlYTNisw
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
Yes, why not? We don't know who the abductor was, someone who had every reason to be in the area i.e. part of the staff could easily have been waiting around until the coast was clear again, without raising any suspicions.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:19:30 PM
I think that is quite feasible Mrs. B. especially as IMO the abductor both entered and left by the front door.
Even Amaral said that it was possible a duplicate key was used.
Yes, and as the "key" issue was never properly investigated by anyone, nobody knows how many there were & how many had access to them. Not forgetting that staff knew how to enter the apartments even when there were keys in the lock inside.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Puffin on June 06, 2013, 06:23:26 PM
Yes, why not? We don't know who the abductor was, someone who had every reason to be in the area i.e. part of the staff could easily have been waiting around until the coast was clear again, without raising any suspicions.
Everyone seems to be assuming it was a man hiding in the room (if in fact anyone was), but no-one seems to be considering a woman, one who Madeleine might well recognise if she should wake up and be less frightening for her than some man she doesn't know which might start her screaming, And chalet maids and cleaners are usually quite strong. Okay, shoot me down, but everything is feasible. would all of you not agree?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 06:28:40 PM
Everyone seems to be assuming it was a man hiding in the room (if in fact anyone was), but no-one seems to be considering a woman, one who Madeleine might well recognise if she should wake up and be less frightening for her than some man she doesn't know which might start her screaming, And chalet maids and cleaners are usually quite strong. Okay, shoot me down, but everything is feasible. would all of you not agree?
But not likely here as we are talking about Tanners sighting, she saw a man
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 06:30:18 PM
Yes, and as the "key" issue was never properly investigated by anyone, nobody knows how many there were & how many had access to them. Not forgetting that staff knew how to enter the apartments even when there were keys in the lock inside.
I would like to know whether the empty apartment two doors down (5c?) was thoroughly searched and examined as that would have been an ideal place for the abductor(s) to use - if they had keys. - both for observational purposes and for being about 5 secs walk away from 5A's front door.
I believe that's the apartment where the 2 British sisters noticed two strange men standing on the balcony of that apartment - and wondered who they were.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:32:43 PM
That does not mean that the person who ENTERED the apartment was a man, it may have been a woman, who THEN handed the (by then sedated by method unknown) sleeping Madeleine to a man, who was seen by Jane Tanner walking away from the scene.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 06:34:54 PM
Everyone seems to be assuming it was a man hiding in the room (if in fact anyone was), but no-one seems to be considering a woman, one who Madeleine might well recognise if she should wake up and be less frightening for her than some man she doesn't know which might start her screaming, And chalet maids and cleaners are usually quite strong. Okay, shoot me down, but everything is feasible. would all of you not agree?
That does not mean that the person who ENTERED the apartment was a man, it may have been a woman, who THEN handed the (by then sedated by method unknown) sleeping Madeleine to a man, who was seen by Jane Tanner walking away from the scene.
Thanks Mrs B, that was what I was getting at. I wasn't talking about someone walking away with the child, I meant inside the room.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 06:36:38 PM
If there were more than one person involved, e.g. one or two acting as look-outs, most likely they would have established some form of communication/warning system. The person in the apartment would then have been alerted to the fact that there was movement & that possibly someone was going to enter the apartment, giving that person a chance to exit the apartment BEFORE Gerry entered?
I have never really bought into the idea that there was more than one abductor on the grounds that the more people involved, the more likely the crime is to be solved ( in this case not a single credible lead or clue has been found )
Then again though, those three brothers in America colluded to keep women prisoners in their house for years without anyone having a clue they were doing it ... so I suppose it is possible
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:40:11 PM
Thanks Mrs B, that was what I was getting at. I wasn't talking about someone walking away with the child, I meant inside the room.
Actually, come to think of it, such a staff member, part of the cleaning crew or similar would have been ideal for the job. Even if she was caught in the apartment, she could easily have come up with a valid excuse (she'd been sent to the wrong apartment to do something or other).
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 06, 2013, 06:42:19 PM
But not likely here as we are talking about Tanners sighting, she saw a man
Not if 2 people were involved - and it could be a man and a woman.
Because of the way the man was carrying the child -i.e. with her head to his left, then that would tie in with someone picking Madeleine up from her bed - so that her her head would be to their right - and then passing her across to another person. It would also indicate that the two people were facing oneanother at the time she was passed from one person to the other.
So Madeleine could have been passed through the window, or at the front door, or even over the wall opposite the front door to someone waiting on the other side. There are several possibilities. AIMHO
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Puffin on June 06, 2013, 06:42:50 PM
I have never really bought into the idea that there was more than one abductor on the grounds that the more people involved, the more likely the crime is to be solved ( in this case not a single credible lead or clue has been found )
Then again though, those three brothers in America colluded to keep women prisoners in their house for years without anyone having a clue they were doing it ... so I suppose it is possible
Icabod, if you are referring to the Ariel Castro case, then I must correct you as only one brother has been accused, the other two were taken in for questioning then released as being not involved, they were actually tried on a couple of minor outstanding warrants that had nothing to do with the kidnapping case.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 06:46:19 PM
Actually, come to think of it, such a staff member, part of the cleaning crew or similar would have been ideal for the job. Even if she was caught in the apartment, she could easily have come up with a valid excuse (she'd been sent to the wrong apartment to do something or other).
Like what? Cleaners dont enter the flats at night to do anything at all, the sound of barrels being scraped again @)(++(*
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:46:51 PM
Icabod, if you are referring to the Ariel Castro case, then I must correct you as only one brother has been accused, the other two were taken in for questioning then released as being not involved, they were actually tried on a couple of minor outstanding warrants that had nothing to do with the kidnapping case.
Yes, that case was different. But there are other cases where a woman & a man have colluded to keep a child prisoner for years. Jaycee Lee Dugard is one example.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 06:47:34 PM
Icabod, if you are referring to the Ariel Castro case, then I must correct you as only one brother has been accused, the other two were taken in for questioning then released as being not involved, they were actually tried on a couple of minor outstanding warrants that had nothing to do with the kidnapping case.
I didn't know that ( I havn't been following it closely, so thanks for the update Puffin )
How could they have not known what was going on though ?
Anyway, that's not for here ... sorry to go off topic
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 06:48:37 PM
Yes, that case was different. But there are other cases where a woman & a man have colluded to keep a child prisoner for years. Jaycee Lee Dugard is one example.
Irrelevant,chalk and cheese cases in every single respect,no comparisons whatsoever
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:49:14 PM
Ah, pure ignorance again. What do you do if you need more sheets, towels etc. You call reception & guess who they send out with more sheets, towels etc? Oh yes, house keeping staff.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 06:52:56 PM
Ah, pure ignorance again. What do you do if you need more sheets, towels etc. You call reception & guess who they send out with more sheets, towels etc? Oh yes, house keeping staff.
Of course the one they sent out in that theory just happened to be the evil one plotting with criminalsto steal maddie, sure, great luck
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 06:58:16 PM
Of course the one they sent out in that theory just happened to be the evil one plotting with criminalsto steal maddie, sure, great luck
No dear. She would only be pretending to be from House Keeping if she got caught in the appartment. Sheesh.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 06:59:11 PM
I believe some here have stayed at the OC, so just out of personal interest - when you guys where there - were the various pools cleaned first thing in the morning - or at night (or both)?
Does anyone know?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 07:09:41 PM
there was a laundry man apparently collecting laundry in the evening
not after 9 pm but around 6
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: John on June 06, 2013, 08:11:53 PM
If there had been two people involved one would have closed the shutter and the window so as to not attract unnecessary attention. The fact that the shutter was left fully up and the window wide open to assist an exit would point to the involvement of only one person in the apartment.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 08:15:50 PM
If there had been two people involved one would have closed the shutter and the window so as to not attract unnecessary attention. The fact that the shutter was left fully up and the window wide open to assist an exit would point to the involvement of only one person in the apartment.
Good point
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 08:16:59 PM
If there had been two people involved one would have closed the shutter and the window so as to not attract unnecessary attention. The fact that the shutter was left fully up and the window wide open to assist an exit would point to the involvement of only one person in the apartment.
Why would they bother hanging around? Depends how quick they wanted to get out, surely. If the McCann's were being watched, they would know anyone of the others could have gone back to check their children
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
b........ised version of the original story, BY said same paper btw, in sept of 07, it was always 6pm this spotting the shocking english man with massive glasses, said man was Neil Berry, identidied by this laundry worker, requestioned by the LP! Elimonated afaiaw
Did you notice papers rechurn stories years later but change the details, funny that
Link to original story in sept 07, compare and contrast, they did exactly the same DCI with the story of the taxi driver who said he saw maddie with some aduots in his cab, original story was 8 pm or so may 3rd, when it was rehashed years later, it was now may 4th
Why would they bother hanging around? Depends how quick they wanted to get out, surely. If the McCann's were being watched, they would know anyone of the others could have gone back to check their children
Also, as someone else pointed out - it could have been to make people think the window was the point of entry to deliberately draw attention away from the fact that someone had a key to the front door.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 08:44:21 PM
Also, as someone else pointed out - it could have been to make people think the window was the point of entry to deliberately draw attention away from the fact that someone had a key to the front door.
The fact that the patio doors were left unlocked was enough to dismiss the need for a key having been used ... no need to open the window on that score
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2013, 08:57:21 PM
What is it then ... patio door or window ?
Definitely NOT the front door ?
What d'ya think Icabod?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 09:00:22 PM
Quite the opposite, there was EVERY need. In fact, Amaral still didn't believe the existence of an abductor regardless of the window being opened. He went for the dastardly parents instead. Makes you wonder what Amaral expected the abductor to leave behind in way of acceptable "evidence". Business card? Written confession? Copy of passport & address details?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 09:06:07 PM
so, far nothing has been established to prove the abductor struck as jane tanner was alledgedly spotting a man, in fact most things point to it being untrue, which leads to to a question thathas been asked before
WHY did the Mccanns INSIST time after time this was the abduction sighting, to the point of agerry saying he was almost caught by Jane, and at least the most probable one as opposed to the Smiths sighting which is just as credible if not MORE so or any other happening that no one saw in between, in fact the Tanner sighting makes the LEAST sense of all scenarios
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 09:08:14 PM
Bit rich coming from someone who is incapable of coming up with ANY scenario at all, don't you think...
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 09:13:23 PM
Excuse me. Who heard Gerry McCann speaking about Paedophile Gangs on the telephone?
I think that even I might need a Cite for that one.
Even I? As you are one of the ones claiming to have read the files thorougly, your CITE here because you OBVIOUSLY missed it and insinuated it wasnt true
No windows needed to be opened ... no shutters needed to be raised ... no duplicate key was required
The patio doors were left unlocked
Yep and in one of his inter mediatry statements, now whooshed, Amaral said no way could anyone have got into 5A via the patio doors, because the parents and friends were too close at 50 metres. At the time he was also saying that nobody could have got in by the front door, nor by the window.
This statement was made at the point in the investigation when he was trying (desperately) to prove that there could have been no abductor; that Madeleine was dead in the apartment.
So many 'flies' were picked out of his hypothesis at the time, that all trace of it vanished from off the internet
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 10:56:28 PM
Yep and in one of his inter mediatry statements, now whooshed, Amaral said no way could anyone have got into 5A via the patio doors, because the parents and friends were too close at 50 metres. At the time he was also saying that nobody could have got in by the front door, nor by the window.
This statement was made at the point in the investigation when he was trying (desperately) to prove that there could have been no abductor; that Madeleine was dead in the apartment.
So many 'flies' were picked out of his hypothesis at the time, that all trace of it vanished from off the internet
Weird eh @)(++(*
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 11:05:37 PM
Yep and in one of his inter mediatry statements, now whooshed, Amaral said no way could anyone have got into 5A via the patio doors, because the parents and friends were too close at 50 metres. At the time he was also saying that nobody could have got in by the front door, nor by the window.
This statement was made at the point in the investigation when he was trying (desperately) to prove that there could have been no abductor; that Madeleine was dead in the apartment.
So many 'flies' were picked out of his hypothesis at the time, that all trace of it vanished from off the internet
Is that what he said ... that the patio doors couldn't have been used because the parents and friends were too near ?
I don't see any logic in that at all
I would say though, that the patio doors could not have been used by Jane Tanner's abductor, because Gerry and Jez were standing right outside the path that lead to them
I suppose that is why Gerry says he thinks the abductor was already in the apartment ( hiding ) when he made his check
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2013, 11:07:59 PM
Very weird that the Chief Investigator, Amaral, did not even think of a key being used Very weird that the C.I. did not even know that there had been burglaries in the OC apartments by entering thru the front door with no damage to the doors Very weird that the C.I. did not even know that the apartment immediately above the McCanns had been entered by the front door using a key presumably only a couple of weeks before
Very very weird that the Chief Investigator did not know these things
Also very very weird that after realizing what a fool had been made of Amaral ... the info about it vanished from off the internet
Unless you can find it !
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2013, 11:10:51 PM
Is that what he said ... that the patio doors couldn't have been used because the parents and friends were too near ?
I don't see any logic in that at all
I would say though, that the patio doors could not have been used by Jane Tanner's abductor, because Gerry and Jez were standing right outside the path that lead to them
I suppose that is why Gerry says he thinks the abductor was already in the apartment ( hiding ) when he made his check
Are you accusing Gerry of telling deliberate lies?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 11:17:08 PM
Are you accusing Gerry of telling deliberate lies?
I am saying that if the abductor Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, then he would have to have already been in the apartment when Gerry made his check ... because he couldn't have entered by way of the patio doors without passing Gerry and Jez
I pointed out that Gerry probably thought the same thing ... why else would he have mentioned the abductor already being in the apartment ( hiding ) when he made his check ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2013, 11:20:50 PM
I am saying that if the abductor Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, then he would have to have already been in the apartment when Gerry made his check ... because he couldn't have entered by way of the patio doors without passing Gerry and Jez
I pointed out that Gerry probably thought the same thing ... why else would he have mentioned the abductor already being in the apartment ( hiding ) when he made his check ?
have you never had a feeling about something? maybe a tiny noise, a draft, a slight smell, something changed ........?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:27:07 PM
have you never had a feeling about something? maybe a tiny noise, a draft, a slight smell, something changed ........?
Like a bedroom door being open a little further than you had left it, and after checking that your children hadn't opened it then not investigating further to see what had ? Something like that Sadie ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2013, 11:29:04 PM
Like a bedroom door being open a little further than you had left it, and after checking that your children hadn't opened it then not investigating further to see what had ? Something like that Sadie ?
Something niggling in the back of your mind Faith
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:34:35 PM
What, like Gerry having such disregard for his children's safety that he didn't even check how the bedroom door had become 'open a bit wider than we left it ' ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 11:51:39 PM
That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 12:01:14 AM
That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.
No he didn't but he did say the door was open wider than he had left it but Madeleine was as he had left her. So exactly who did he think, if he thought about it at all, had opened the door 'a little wider' ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 07, 2013, 12:03:01 AM
That really has to be one of the dumbest remarks I've seen. Did Gerry McCann ever say he had that feeling while he was IN the apartment & did nothing about it? If so, please provide link to back up your accusations.
But if he didn't 'have that feeling' in the first place ( while he was in the apartment ) how could he recall it later ?
Not being picky here, I genuinely don't see how it is possible to do that
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 12:21:01 AM
Really, most odd. It's a rather common feeling. I'm sure most people have experienced it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 07, 2013, 12:39:37 AM
A different possibility would depend on whether the bathroom had a bathtub or not and on whether the curtain was generally drawn after a shower/bath or left open.
I'm reading this only now. Mr McCann said he used the bathroom...the child carrier behind the curtain, what about his breathing ? Who is Janet Leigh in this hypothetical scene ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 07, 2013, 08:33:00 AM
No windows needed to be opened ... no shutters needed to be raised ... no duplicate key was required
The patio doors were left unlocked
Indeed Icab. But if the abductor(s) wanted to hide the fact that they had a key, and that they had been watching the McCanns and the apartment prior to the 3rd May, then maybe they opened the shutters and window to make it appear that it was an 'opportunist' break in by someone who was unaware that the patio door was not locked and so would be assuming that it was.
It's impossible to say because we don't know the reason why Madeleine was taken. But if it was an abduction 'to order' then surely the people involved would try to deflect the Pj from going down the route of an 'organised' crime by trying to make it look as if it was NOT pre-planned.
Personally I tend to think the window/shutters were opened because it was not possible to check on the outside from the front door because it was recessed too far back, and they would have actually had to walk out of the front door then walk forward a few paces to check on what was going on at the front of the building. With the window/shutters opened they could do that from inside the room. It also gave them another escape route if they were interrrupted.
AIMHO
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 08:43:29 AM
Gerry didn't feel as if there was someone in the apartment with him at the time ( if he had, he would surely have looked around )
Later, though, he recalled that he had felt someone was there with him ... he recalled a feeling he had not felt !
I don't think that's a common experience at all
Well, can't think I know anyone who has never expressed regrets about something they did or didn't do, but afterwards wished they hadn't, or had done, as they SHOULD have known better, or they SHOULD have acted on the signs that something was wrong, or they SHOULD have listened to advice given etc etc. That's where the expression "it's easy to be wise after the event" comes from. Similar expressions exist in most languages, as far as I know, which points to it being a rather common human experience.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 07, 2013, 08:58:18 AM
Perp watches Gerry from a distance enter and leave the apartment at 9.00
As soon as Gerry leaves he enters via the patio door ( unlocked ) 30 secs
Finds the bedroom and Maddies bed uses chloroform or some other agent to subdue a sleeping child 1 minute
Opens the shutters and signals to perp 2 who is across the road in shadows say another 2 minutes
Picks up Maddy and hands her out to Perp 2 who then makes his way up the road 2 minutes
He then exits the way he came in through the patio and catches up with perp 2 at a prearranged place
He could have been in and out in 5 minutes tops - no need to touch the twins who were sound asleep
This fits in exactly with the siting of Tanner who caught a sight of Perp 2 walking away
------
Only it doesnt fit with Tanners sighting as she walked past Gerry and Jez chatting at the bottom of the stairs, man couldnt have entered or exited that way after Gerrys check and be seen by Tanner as well
I am sure if this was the case the abductor wouldn't have exited whistling a merry tune and making a racket - Tanner walked past the gate - she was outside the complex and would have a view of the patio door for a second. It was dark as everyone knows. IF this happened then the abductor might just have got lucky. Gerry and Wilkins were in conversation - they didn't even notice Tanner
Who knows . I am just trying to explore that there was an adequate window of opportunity for the abduction to happen after Gerry's check and also for Tanner to spot an exiting person with Maddie. The timings are not impossible as some try and make us think
I know that you cant directly compare cases - but if you look back in time at other abductions you see that kids have been snatched in broad day light and no one ever noticed a thing,. It is only with hindsight that something becomes clearer- That's the point
Again sadly no one knows what happened I could be spectacularly wrong and all the Tapas are in it up to their necks - but my gut feel looking at all the available evidence is that Maddy was snatched by persons unknown
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 09:18:19 AM
I am sure if this was the case the abductor wouldn't have exited whistling a merry tune and making a racket - Tanner walked past the gate - she was outside the complex and would have a view of the patio door for a second. It was dark as everyone knows. IF this happened then the abductor might just have got lucky. Gerry and Wilkins were in conversation - they didn't even notice Tanner
Who knows . I am just trying to explore that there was an adequate window of opportunity for the abduction to happen after Gerry's check and also for Tanner to spot an exiting person with Maddie. The timings are not impossible as some try and make us think
I know that you cant directly compare cases - but if you look back in time at other abductions you see that kids have been snatched in broad day light and no one ever noticed a thing,. It is only with hindsight that something becomes clearer- That's the point
Again sadly no one knows what happened I could be spectacularly wrong and all the Tapas are in it up to their necks - but my gut feel looking at all the available evidence is that Maddy was snatched by persons unknown
We KNOW that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be taken in a criminal act by a stranger. As Scotland Yard has already done a forensic analysis of the timeline & they have come to that conclusion. Scotland Yard, as in; that lot who do have law enforcement authority & some experience in these matters.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 07, 2013, 11:01:01 AM
We can guess that if the Yard is still spending time and money to review this case, there were windows of opportunity to take Madeleine out of the flat. Not only the implausible but not impossible one that joins the predator and Mr McCann in the same space without the second being aware of the first, repeating this situation five minutes later when JT passes Mr McCann "incognito".
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 11:10:31 AM
Eh? We KNOW this, Anne, because they have INFORMED us all that this IS their opinion. Perhaps you missed it?
"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.
He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.
He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 11:38:30 AM
'He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.'
I'd appreciate it if anyone could provide a direct quote from Redwood in which he unequivocally dismisses the parents involvement.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 11:56:17 AM
Why? Whatever for? It's quoted directly from the article, surely direct quotes form such highly qualified journalists employed by the Guardian should be good enough for you. After all, that's how this journalist "interpreted" Andy Redwood at a press conference. We don't actually know exactly what Andy Redwood said at that press conference, we weren't there, the Journalist however was!
Ever heard of the expression: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 12:05:16 PM
Why? Whatever for? It's quoted directly from the article, surely direct quotes form such highly qualified journalists employed by the Guardian should be good enough for you. After all, that's how this journalist "interpreted" Andy Redwood at a press conference. We don't actually know exactly what Andy Redwood said at that press conference, we weren't there, the Journalist however was!
Ever heard of the expression: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"?
I have Mrs B and thank you for confirming we are allowed 'impressions' and 'interpretations' when it suits.
Now back to that quote >@@(*&)
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 07, 2013, 12:06:06 PM
'He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.'
I'd appreciate it if anyone could provide a direct quote from Redwood in which he unequivocally dismisses the parents involvement.
Scotland Yard is calling for the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance to be reopened, as detectives revealed there is evidence to suggest she might be alive.
Senior detectives within the Metropolitan police have been reviewing the Portuguese inquiry into the girl's disappearance for a year. On Wednesday – as the fifth anniversary of her disappearance approaches – police released an age-enhanced image of what she might look like now.
Madeleine, whose ninth birthday is on 12 May, disappeared from a Portuguese resort on 3 May 2007.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said he believed she was abducted by a stranger, adding that there were 195 "investigative opportunities".
Redwood said he "genuinely" believed Madeleine could be alive, though the team is following an equal line of inquiry that she might now be dead.
The officer is leading a team of 37 detectives dedicated solely to carrying out an active investigative review of all the evidence in the case.
They are sifting through 40,000 pieces of material, and within them Redwood said officers have identified 195 historic investigative opportunities.
He said the team was developing new information about what happened to Madeleine five years ago, when she disappeared from her parents' holiday villa in Praia de Luz.
"We are currently developing material which we believe represents genuine new information," said Redwood.
He said officers had carried out a forensic analysis of the timeline of events, and had identified opportunities when the child could have been taken in a criminal act.
Dismissing conspiracy theories about Madeleine's parents' involvement, Redwood said he believed the girl's disappearance was the result of "a criminal act by a stranger".
He appealed directly to anyone who might know where Madeleine was to contact the police.
The Met team is working with a Portuguese review team in Oporto, which is separate from the original inquiry and, said Redwood, was as committed as Scotland Yard to getting to the bottom of what happened to Madeleine.
"The Metropolitan police service wants the investigation reopened," he said. But he added that the decision had to be made by the Portuguese.
The Yard team is passing its information directly to the Portuguese review team. Redwood has visited Portugal seven times in the past year.
The review was set up last year on the fourth anniversary of the child's disappearance after Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, appealed to the prime minister, David Cameron, for Scotland Yard to look at the case.
Redwood said: "We have approached the material with a completely open mind. We have sought to put Madeleine McCann at the heart of everything we do."
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 07, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
Scotland Yard is calling for the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance to be reopened, as detectives revealed there is evidence to suggest she might be alive. Has someone an idea about that evidence ?
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said he believed she was abducted by a stranger, adding that there were 195 "investigative opportunities".
Redwood said he "genuinely" believed Madeleine could be alive, though the team is following an equal line of inquiry that she might now be dead.
"We are currently developing material which we believe represents genuine new information," said Redwood.
Dismissing conspiracy theories about Madeleine's parents' involvement, Redwood said he believed the girl's disappearance was the result of "a criminal act by a stranger". We still don't know whether his words were definitive or if "he believed". He appealed directly to anyone who might know where Madeleine was to contact the police. I reckoned they ignored "Madeleine", which seems to corroborate their discarding any involvement of Madeleine's parents.
Thanks, Ferryman ! Inspector Redwood is a great believer, I'm not expecting this from the Yard.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
I have Mrs B and thank you for confirming we are allowed 'impressions' and 'interpretations' when it suits.
Now back to that quote >@@(*&)
Journalists certainly are, in your case, however, having absolutely no credibility & a very bad case of over active imagination (of the worst kind) - debatable.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 12:59:32 PM
Journalists certainly are, in your case, however, having absolutely no credibility & a very bad case of over active imagination (of the worst kind) - debatable.
And long-serving police officers such as Paiva ?
Now that direct quote Mrs B ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 01:02:31 PM
Click on the link, or is that too complicated for you? Direct quote from article.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 07, 2013, 01:12:11 PM
It's a direct quote FROM the article, can you not read? Surely, you understand that a Guardian journalist has a lot more credibility than you will ever have?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: south of the river on June 07, 2013, 01:23:50 PM
I know that newspapers are not known for total accuracy , but when a broadsheet gives a direct quote and attributes said quote to a serving police officer then you can pretty well take it as read.
If the paper was making it up or speculating they would use lines like a " spokesman " or " sources close " - in this article they have not done so,
I think that the question be would be is he correct or not rather than did he say it
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 07, 2013, 01:52:31 PM
Berk ! Mrs. B, don't incite me to lose my respect for you, please.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 07, 2013, 03:10:14 PM
I think it is important to remember Redwood made his comments over a year ago, when, as he acknowledged, Scotland Yard had only reviewed a quarter of the material available to them
The recently retired policeman who had been in overall charge of the case ( forgotten his name ) made no such conclusion
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 07, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
I'm curious to see what they'll do with this hot potato the Portugueses were obviously relieved to be rid of. This I forgot his name also retiring supervisor, was he advised to seem to feed the media, or did he talk on his own ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 07:49:30 PM
It's a direct quote FROM the article, can you not read? Surely, you understand that a Guardian journalist has a lot more credibility than you will ever have?
I am asking for a direct quote from Redwood and if it's in the article you will be able to reproduce it, won't you ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 07, 2013, 07:55:12 PM
I am asking for a direct quote from Redwood and if it's in the article you will be able to reproduce it, won't you ?
You're right, Faithlilly, there isn't even a reported quote in this article.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 07, 2013, 08:49:44 PM
The journalist obviously made that bit up, ie if redwood said he believed there was a possibility or his belief of a stranger abduction, then some might read that as discrediting other theories, of course, that is not what he said, is it??? and of course not all the files had been gone through at the time so how he could even make a statement as to his beliefs is a time warp, btw what press conference? Was it a secret one?
Gosh if secret courts are not enough in this country, we have secret police press conferences too? Whats the point? Of having a press conference when its not shown on tv or reported on it fully
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2013, 11:35:28 PM
The journalist obviously made that bit up, ie if redwood said he believed there was a possibility or his belief of a stranger abduction, then some might read that as discrediting other theories, of course, that is not what he said, is it??? and of course not all the files had been gone through at the time so how he could even make a statement as to his beliefs is a time warp, btw what press conference? Was it a secret one?
Gosh if secret courts are not enough in this country, we have secret police press conferences too? Whats the point? Of having a press conference when its not shown on tv or reported on it fully
I think Redwood was very circumspect in what he said Redblossom and yes Anne there is no direct quote. It's simply the journalist taking one statement and assuming another.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 07, 2013, 11:55:10 PM
Is there any quote anywhere from Andy Redwood giving even the smallest hint that anything other than stranger abduction was a possibility? If so I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 12:11:51 AM
Is there any quote anywhere from Andy Redwood giving even the smallest hint that anything other than stranger abduction was a possibility? If so I haven't seen it.
But that wasn't the question, was it ? The question was can anyone reproduce a categorical, verbatim statement from Redwood stating that the McCanns were not involved in their daughters's disappearance and the answer to that seems to be a resounding NO.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
But that wasn't the question, was it ? The question was can anyone reproduce a categorical, verbatim statement from Redwood stating that the McCanns were not involved in their daughters's disappearance and the answer to that seems to be a resounding NO.
Well I think anyone who thinks that SY have any suspicions at all about the McCanns is going to be sorely disappointed.
The McCann have said they are pleased/encouraged by the work of the SY, which means they have been briefed about the progress. That would not be happening if they were suspected of being involved. Questioned - yes. Briefed - no. IMO
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 12:55:00 AM
@)(++(*
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 01:59:55 AM
Well I think anyone who thinks that SY have any suspicions at all about the McCanns is going to be sorely disappointed.
The McCann have said they are pleased/encouraged by the work of the SY, which means they have been briefed about the progress. That would not be happening if they were suspected of being involved. Questioned - yes. Briefed - no. IMO
No tax payer intends to be disappointed, Benice. For this to be achieved, and whatever the conclusions, however tough or cheering they are concerning Madeleine, evidence will be required. If they don't know, they don't know, all right. But if they say it was death by water or abduction by a fairy, they'll have to prove it.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 12:42:17 PM
Well I think anyone who thinks that SY have any suspicions at all about the McCanns is going to be sorely disappointed.
The McCann have said they are pleased/encouraged by the work of the SY, which means they have been briefed about the progress. That would not be happening if they were suspected of being involved. Questioned - yes. Briefed - no. IMO
From, at the very least, the 8th of August the McCanns knew the Portuguese police believed they were implicated in their daughter's disappearance but you will find no mention of it in any of the interviews they conducted at that time.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: sadie on June 08, 2013, 01:14:16 PM
From, at the very least, the 8th of August the McCanns knew the Portuguese police believed they were implicated in their daughter's disappearance but you will find no mention of it in any of the interviews they conducted at that time.
How do YOU KNOW that ?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 01:20:11 PM
They were suspecting at least. In Mr McCann's blog, that was read by all the supporters and money senders, he tries to "golden the pill", as we say in French and as Mrs McCann's "Madeleine" shows it. Benice should remember what the LC declared in July 2008, some days before the case was shelved more or less that the innocence of one McCann or both was possible but that no clear proof allowed to eliminate them from being involved in the disappearance of Madeleine (I'm citing from memory, but I think the meaning is there and correct me if it's not).
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 01:23:30 PM
Kate tells in her book how both she and Gerry were 'interrogated' by the police on August 8th, when they were told directly that there had been a 'shift' in the investigation
She was left distressed and scared whilst Gerry was crying, upset, and shaken ( pages 213/214 )
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 03:49:31 PM
Kate tells in her book how both she and Gerry were 'interrogated' by the police on August 8th, when they were told directly that there had been a 'shift' in the investigation
She was left distressed and scared whilst Gerry was crying, upset, and shaken ( pages 213/214 )
Thank you Icabod, I'd missed Sadie's question.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2013, 03:58:41 PM
From, at the very least, the 8th of August the McCanns knew the Portuguese police believed they were implicated in their daughter's disappearance but you will find no mention of it in any of the interviews they conducted at that time.
Portuguese police believed they were implicated ...
Almeida believed (probably still does believe) they were implicated.
Almeida has a criminal conviction for inflicting the barbaric torture of bastinado.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Portuguese police believed they were implicated ...
Almeida believed (probably still does believe) they were implicated.
Almeida has a criminal conviction for inflicting the barbaric torture of bastinado.
The point being made is that it cannot be concluded that the McCanns are being kept in loop by Scotland Yard merely on their say-so
They gave interviews after the August 8th interrogation reaffirming their 'good relationship' with the Portuguese police, saying the flow of information between them was very good
This was clearly not the case
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2013, 04:12:44 PM
Kate tells in her book how both she and Gerry were 'interrogated' by the police on August 8th, when they were told directly that there had been a 'shift' in the investigation
She was left distressed and scared whilst Gerry was crying, upset, and shaken ( pages 213/214 )
Icabod, Are those two seperate quotes from the book?
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2013, 04:17:23 PM
The point being made is that it cannot be concluded that the McCanns are being kept in loop by Scotland Yard merely on their say-so
They gave interviews after the August 8th interrogation reaffirming their 'good relationship' with the Portuguese police, saying the flow of information between them was very good
This was clearly not the case
That is one point you are making.
Another point faith is making is that she implicitly trusts the word of a convicted torture.
And a third point I am making is that the word of a convicted torturer is not to be trusted.
I will make (my) second (the) fourth point: the prosecutors could find no evidence against any of the 3 (former) arguidos.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 04:30:21 PM
Another point faith is making is that she implicitly trusts the word of a convicted torture.
And a third point I am making is that the word of a convicted torturer is not to be trusted.
I will make (my) second (the) fourth point: the prosecutors could find no evidence against any of the 3 (former) arguidos.
It was you who brought up the subject of Almeida, not I. I was merely perplexed what your post has to do with the fact that the McCanns are quite able to put a positive spin on events, even when they are going against them.
Title: Re: If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2013, 04:34:12 PM
It was you who brought up the subject of Almeida, not I. I was merely perplexed what your post has to do with the fact that the McCanns are quite able to put a positive spin on events, even when they are going against them.
You said "Portuguese police" believed the McCanns were guilty.
Do you think Almeida might have thought them innocent?