Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on December 24, 2019, 09:53:52 PM
Title: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 24, 2019, 09:53:52 PM
My understanding is that Dr T stayed in block 4 along with his wife and 2 young children.
The MW brochure makes clear the night crèche is only available to parents dining at Millennium or Tapas restaurants
JT observed 'Tannerman' walking across FGM at the top of ADS, away from 5A. Many say if 'Tannerman' and Dr T are one and the same then how come Dr T was walking in the 'wrong direction'.
I've assumed, rightly or wrongly, if Dr T and 'Tannerman' are one and the same then Dr T, staying in block 4, was simply en route dropping his daughter off at crèche before heading off to Millenium to join the rest of his party: wife and Weinbergers?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2019, 10:48:40 PM
It has a extra note saying "Please note that the activity list will only be showing 2nd week but guest requires two weeks childcare from 28th April".
I take that as Totmans wanted to use the creche facilities for the two weeks but may not be in accommodation for the first week.
I don't think the note has anything to do with accomodation. The 'activity list' would be a list showing which activities people had booked. That explains why Cat Baker was able to prepare things before the children arrived;
I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children's bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Obviously there was more detail provided by the parents when booking than can be seen on the Arrivals List. The note suggests that because the booking system dealt in weeks, there was a glich which prevented the activities from showing in the first week when a 2 week holiday had been booked. If you look at the Reap booking below the Totman one there's a note there saying childcare is needed for the first week. These notes appear when clients are staying for more than one week.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 25, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
So there is some doubt about this.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2019, 09:02:19 AM
I think so. But it is not sufficiently explained. Julian Totman is reported to play tennis with Gerry, so it is not like he didn't join in activities in the first week of his holiday.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 25, 2019, 09:37:42 AM
I think so. But it is not sufficiently explained. Julian Totman is reported to play tennis with Gerry, so it is not like he didn't join in activities in the first week of his holiday.
The doubt exists only in your mind in my opinion. There's absolutely no evidence that the Totman's stayed anywhere than in block 4.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 09:44:37 AM
I think so. But it is not sufficiently explained. Julian Totman is reported to play tennis with Gerry, so it is not like he didn't join in activities in the first week of his holiday.
Thanks for the info but I can't see any evidence Dr T stayed anywhere other than G4M situated in block 4/denoted by the 4 in G4M.
I don't understand how the booking of various activities/services over the 2 weeks has any bearing on apartment stayed in.
Why would he stay in one apartment for one week and another for the other week?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 09:54:10 AM
The doubt exists only in your mind in my opinion. There's absolutely no evidence that the Totman's stayed anywhere than in block 4.
I agree.
How are the apartments numbered? The McCanns were in 5A: 5 denotes the block and the A I assume is first apartment bottom corner whereby the letters ascend alphabetically with the Olfields in 5B etc.
The Totmans were in G4M so we have the number prefixed by a letter unlike 5A, 5B etc?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 09:59:40 AM
How are the apartments numbered? The McCanns were in 5A: 5 denotes the block and the A I assume is first apartment bottom corner whereby the letters ascend alphabetically with the Olfields in 5B etc.
The Totmans were in G4M so we have the number prefixed by a letter unlike 5A, 5B etc?
The G stands for Garden, as the apartments are in the Garden area. Some apartments have a C for Club, which puts them near the Millenium.
How are the apartments numbered? The McCanns were in 5A: 5 denotes the block and the A I assume is first apartment bottom corner whereby the letters ascend alphabetically with the Olfields in 5B etc.
The Totmans were in G4M so we have the number prefixed by a letter unlike 5A, 5B etc?
The full number of the McCann's apartment was G5A shortened to 5A.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
The MW brochure makes clear the night crèche was only available to guests dining at Tapas and Millennium. We know Dr T did not dine at Tapas.
Why is this important... Have you given up on CAROL TRANMER.. I thought it was done and dusted
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 25, 2019, 06:26:09 PM
If it was Julian Totman seen by Jane Tanner taking his daughter to the night creche at 21h15, does it mean that he stayed with her (after tennis with Gerry McCann) at the apartment in block 4 until then? Were his wife and son already at the Millennium/creche?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2019, 07:22:27 PM
If it was Julian Totman seen by Jane Tanner taking his daughter to the night creche at 21h15, does it mean that he stayed with her (after tennis with Gerry McCann) at the apartment in block 4 until then? Were his wife and son already at the Millennium/creche?
I think you'll find there isn't enough information to understand those questions.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 25, 2019, 07:24:46 PM
Exactly, Rob. Retired detective Ian Horrocks is suggesting that there might still be a Tannerman unaccounted for.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2019, 07:29:15 PM
If it was Julian Totman seen by Jane Tanner taking his daughter to the night creche at 21h15, does it mean that he stayed with her (after tennis with Gerry McCann) at the apartment in block 4 until then? Were his wife and son already at the Millennium/creche?
As the Totman's came forward and said they thought sighting may well have been Dr T I think we can safely assume Dr T was walking around with his daughter alone on 3rd May.
FP claims in her police rog that she and DW would often leave DP in apartment to settle children while they headed down to tapas.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Dr T arrived back at apt having played tennis and wanted to take a shower and break before heading out and/or his daughter wouldn't settle so Mrs T and the Weinbergers headed up to Millenium with Dr T following after dropping daughter off at crèche.
What happened to the Totman's young son and the Weinberger children? Did they go to crèche earlier?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 08:08:46 PM
Jane Tanner watched Julian Totman and Gerry McCann play tennis for half an hour on the 3rd. Three hours later she saw a man carrying a child.
Well she may not have paid much attention to him but if she did I would suggest a man running around a tennis court in tennis whites in broad daylight might look different to a brief sideways encounter of a man wearing heavy clothes during the hours of darkness.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 25, 2019, 08:10:43 PM
Since dr Totman did not dine at the Tapas, how do we know that he was dining at the Millennium on 3 May? According to reports he was taking his daughter home from the night creche. Nonsensical to me.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 25, 2019, 08:11:34 PM
Whatever, Jane Tanner is clearly satisfied that she didn't witness an abduction.
If she still believed she did she would have said something to the fuzz by now & they wouldn't have ruled out her sighting.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 08:12:13 PM
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 25, 2019, 08:17:19 PM
‘What happened to the Totman's young son and the Weinberger children? Did they go to crèche earlier?’
This is what I am asking. Do you know? Also, Jeni Weinberger was, according to reports, the woman who saw the pock-marked man on two occasions, staring at block 5.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 08:17:46 PM
Since dr Totman did not dine at the Tapas, how do we know that he was dining at the Millennium on 3 May? According to reports he was taking his daughter home from the night creche. Nonsensical to me.
I understand his child(ren) appeared in night crèche records.
What is nonsensical to you?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 08:25:25 PM
‘What happened to the Totman's young son and the Weinberger children? Did they go to crèche earlier?’
This is what I am asking. Do you know? Also, Jeni Weinberger was, according to reports, the woman who saw the pock-marked man on two occasions, staring at block 5.
It seems a perfectly normal arrangement to me: Mrs T and Weinbergers went to Millenium and Dr T followed having dropped his daughter off at crèche.
Yes I understand JW, and her husband (I think), observed a creepy man in the vicinity.
Anthro as an aside may I ask why you choose not to use the quote facility?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 25, 2019, 08:46:58 PM
Holly, I am posting from my iPad and do not know how to use the quote option. Can you please give me a 101?
Can you please provide credible information that the Totmans in fact went to the Millennium on the night of 3 May?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Holly, I am posting from my iPad and do not know how to use the quote option. Can you please give me a 101?
Can you please provide credible information that the Totmans in fact went to the Millennium on the night of 3 May?
I'm currently on my iPhone but able to use the quote facility. No probs if you can't I was just curious. What's a 101?
What's your definition of credible info?
- The Totmans contacted the authorities in aftermath saying they thought 'Tannerman' and Dr T might be one and the same. For whatever reason this wasn't followed up. - OG are confident they've eliminated 'Tannerman' by identifying him through crèche records. The elimination is thought to be based on Dr T. - The night crèche is only available to guests dining at Millenium or Tapas. We know Dr T didn't dine at Tapas.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 25, 2019, 10:02:45 PM
I'm currently on my iPhone but able to use the quote facility. No probs if you can't I was just curious. What's a 101?
What's your definition of credible info?
- The Totmans contacted the authorities in aftermath saying they thought 'Tannerman' and Dr T might be one and the same. For whatever reason this wasn't followed up. - OG are confident they've eliminated 'Tannerman' by identifying him through crèche records. The elimination is thought to be based on Dr T. - The night crèche is only available to guests dining at Millenium or Tapas. We know Dr T didn't dine at Tapas.
OG eliminated the man seen by Tanner by talking to the family.
21:40 in,revelation moment,this family gave Redwood and his team some critical information
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 25, 2019, 10:03:55 PM
Holly, I am posting from my iPad and do not know how to use the quote option. Can you please give me a 101?
Can you please provide credible information that the Totmans in fact went to the Millennium on the night of 3 May?
At the top right of every post is a small box entitled quote.. Click on that and it quotes the post... You just type your reply after the quote bracket... I presume a 101 is a one on one
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 25, 2019, 10:13:01 PM
Redwood said the description of the girl being carried by Smithman was very close to that of Madeleine McCann,that's never been said of Tannerman child by a brit police officer involved in the investigation.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 26, 2019, 08:42:18 AM
As the Totman's came forward and said they thought sighting may well have been Dr T I think we can safely assume Dr T was walking around with his daughter alone on 3rd May.
FP claims in her police rog that she and DW would often leave DP in apartment to settle children while they headed down to tapas.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Dr T arrived back at apt having played tennis and wanted to take a shower and break before heading out and/or his daughter wouldn't settle so Mrs T and the Weinbergers headed up to Millenium with Dr T following after dropping daughter off at crèche.
What happened to the Totman's young son and the Weinberger children? Did they go to crèche earlier?
One fly in the ointment with that idea is the Tanner sighting fits very poorly with going to or coming from the night crèche.
It can be done but there are easier, shorter, more logical routes.
If it was Totman, he was doing it the hard way. *%87
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 26, 2019, 09:25:16 AM
Yes, it's likely there was another man of similar appearance carrying another barefoot child in the same manner at around the same time.
Maybe not just one, perhaps there was a whole line of them doing laps around the block.
Jane Tanner should know if SY got it wrong, but she seems to have disappeared.
How many young girls were sleeping at the creche that night? How would they have been collected by their parents? Which parent would have done the carrying? Think about it.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 26, 2019, 10:54:23 AM
I'm currently on my iPhone but able to use the quote facility. No probs if you can't I was just curious. What's a 101?
What's your definition of credible info?
- The Totmans contacted the authorities in aftermath saying they thought 'Tannerman' and Dr T might be one and the same. For whatever reason this wasn't followed up. - OG are confident they've eliminated 'Tannerman' by identifying him through crèche records. The elimination is thought to be based on Dr T. - The night crèche is only available to guests dining at Millenium or Tapas. We know Dr T didn't dine at Tapas.
‘101 is a topic for beginners in any area. It has all the basic principles and concepts that are expected in a particular field. In American university course numbering systems, the number 101 is often used for an introductory course at a beginner's level in a department's subject area.’ (wikipedia)
Does anyone know if the Totmans were there for 2 weeks on half board or full board?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 26, 2019, 10:55:21 AM
At the top right of every post is a small box entitled quote.. Click on that and it quotes the post... You just type your reply after the quote bracket... I presume a 101 is a one on one
Thank you, Davel.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 26, 2019, 11:39:48 AM
Almost certain? Go on telly and say 'almost certain'? Mostly harmless? 'It's good, but it's not right'. So it still could be and the timeline discussed that was referred to for 4 years is 'nearly wrong'?
And some have the audacity to castigate the PJ's investigation, when here's Redwood doing his best policemufication techniques and that, not ruling anything out, hedging his bets, PC Creosote. Better off saying nothing.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: kmc on December 26, 2019, 01:21:29 PM
That evening, JT made 2 identical trips to her apartment. On her second trip she would have been stressed knowing her youngest was ill and half an hour later she would learn another child had been abducted.
She would also have experienced group pressure to pinpoint a timeline, possibly resulting in too much emphasis on her 21.15 trip and a possible false/muddled recall. (I imagine for the McCann family an earlier Tannerman would have made them feel better about their lack of later checks & for JT the fact that neither GM or JW noticed the man, would have made her feel less bad for offering information of seeing someone walking away with a child).
IMO there is a very real chance that the actual sighting of Tannerman was at 21.50 and that the lighting JT saw was from a street lamp. I think this because any premeditated abductor would likely have favoured the darker/less checking “window” whilst the main meals was served/eaten. (Obviously, not counting on JT gobbling down her meal to swap with her partner).
It would also explain why JT and the Smith family subconsciously took more note of the man and scantily clad child - than they would have done, say one hour earlier in the day. Also, the Smithman/Tannerman description is almost identical making it likely that they may be the same person. Additionally, if Tannerman looped back around the street above - it would have put him on course to bump into the Smith family at pretty much the exact time that Smithman was witnessed.
To me at the very least, this alternative sighting timing should have been considered as a possible hypothesis. As a later Tannerman sighting would have indicated the possibility of an accomplice (due to child’s body position), no use of a get away car and a perp that likely lived in the vicinity of the Smith sighting so likely a local, plus they would have had two/three efits of the abductor. (This one small detail, if it was muddled, could be responsible for why this case has taken so long to solve/unravel).
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 26, 2019, 01:22:41 PM
‘101 is a topic for beginners in any area. It has all the basic principles and concepts that are expected in a particular field. In American university course numbering systems, the number 101 is often used for an introductory course at a beginner's level in a department's subject area.’ (wikipedia)
Does anyone know if the Totmans were there for 2 weeks on half board or full board?
The Brochure at the time didn't mention full board, and neither did the price list;
At the Ocean Club, your half-board package includes breakfast served at the Millennium Restaurant, where you help yourself to a cooked, continental or healthier start to the day, and either lunch or dinner, (carte de table or buffet selection) in one of the two family friendly village restaurants. House wine is included with dinner. http://web.archive.org/web/20061111225752/http://www.markwarner.co.uk/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club/resort_details http://web.archive.org/web/20061113023910/http://www.markwarner.co.uk/summer_holidays/portugal/ocean_club/prices
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 26, 2019, 02:01:53 PM
That evening, JT made 2 identical trips to her apartment. On her second trip she would have been stressed knowing her youngest was ill and half an hour later she would learn another child had been abducted.
She would also have experienced group pressure to pinpoint a timeline, possibly resulting in too much emphasis on her 21.15 trip and a possible false/muddled recall. (I imagine for the McCann family an earlier Tannerman would have made them feel better about their lack of later checks & for JT the fact that neither GM or JW noticed the man, would have made her feel less bad for offering information of seeing someone walking away with a child).
IMO there is a very real chance that the actual sighting of Tannerman was at 21.50 and that the lighting JT saw was from a street lamp. I think this because any premeditated abductor would likely have favoured the darker/less checking “window” whilst the main meals was served/eaten. (Obviously, not counting on JT gobbling down her meal to swap with her partner).
It would also explain why JT and the Smith family subconsciously took more note of the man and scantily clad child - than they would have done, say one hour earlier in the day. Also, the Smithman/Tannerman description is almost identical making it likely that they may be the same person. Additionally, if Tannerman looped back around the street above - it would have put him on course to bump into the Smith family at pretty much the exact time that Smithman was witnessed.
To me at the very least, this alternative sighting timing should have been considered as a possible hypothesis. As a later Tannerman sighting would have indicated the possibility of an accomplice (due to child’s body position), no use of a get away car and a perp that likely lived in the vicinity of the Smith sighting so likely a local, plus they would have had two/three efits of the abductor. (This one small detail, if it was muddled, could be responsible for why this case has taken so long to solve/unravel).
You agree with the PJ and Oakley then that Jane Tanner was an unreliable witness?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 26, 2019, 02:25:42 PM
You agree with the PJ and Oakley then that Jane Tanner was an unreliable witness?
It is a scientific fact that memory is inherently fallible...and as such it would be foolish to suggest any witness to be “entirely” reliable, particularly when one of the witness took exactly the same route twice in the same evening. We also know that JT would have felt considerable pressure from the group to select which exact trip she had witnessed the man and child, which must have been difficult to pinpoint - especially if you had done the same route twice within just over a half an hour period.
What stands out from both statements is that JT and the Smith family, independently of each other, describe seeing on the same night an uncannily similar man and child - height, clothing and general description wise, they are almost identical. (We also know that if JT witnessed him later in the evening - the time needed to walk the distance would fit almost exactly with both sightings) .
I don’t believe JT comes across as malicious or untrustworthy and I have no reason to disbelieve that she did indeed see a man - I only question when exactly she saw him, and not because she is unreliable but rather because she is human.
I think both the PJ and Oakley suggesting JT was an unreliable witness, speaks volumes about their own reliability to assess and consider evidence.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 26, 2019, 04:58:00 PM
It is a scientific fact that memory is inherently fallible...and as such it would be foolish to suggest any witness to be “entirely” reliable, particularly when one of the witness took exactly the same route twice in the same evening. We also know that JT would have felt considerable pressure from the group to select which exact trip she had witnessed the man and child, which must have been difficult to pinpoint - especially if you had done the same route twice within just over a half an hour period.
What stands out from both statements is that JT and the Smith family, independently of each other, describe seeing on the same night an uncannily similar man and child - height, clothing and general description wise, they are almost identical. (We also know that if JT witnessed him later in the evening - the time needed to walk the distance would fit almost exactly with both sightings) .
I don’t believe JT comes across as malicious or untrustworthy and I have no reason to disbelieve that she did indeed see a man - I only question when exactly she saw him, and not because she is unreliable but rather because she is human.
I think both the PJ and Oakley suggesting JT was an unreliable witness, speaks volumes about their own reliability to assess and consider evidence.
Good One.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 26, 2019, 05:12:15 PM
It is a scientific fact that memory is inherently fallible...and as such it would be foolish to suggest any witness to be “entirely” reliable, particularly when one of the witness took exactly the same route twice in the same evening. We also know that JT would have felt considerable pressure from the group to select which exact trip she had witnessed the man and child, which must have been difficult to pinpoint - especially if you had done the same route twice within just over a half an hour period.
What stands out from both statements is that JT and the Smith family, independently of each other, describe seeing on the same night an uncannily similar man and child - height, clothing and general description wise, they are almost identical. (We also know that if JT witnessed him later in the evening - the time needed to walk the distance would fit almost exactly with both sightings) .
I don’t believe JT comes across as malicious or untrustworthy and I have no reason to disbelieve that she did indeed see a man - I only question when exactly she saw him, and not because she is unreliable but rather because she is human.
I think both the PJ and Oakley suggesting JT was an unreliable witness, speaks volumes about their own reliability to assess and consider evidence.
If a witness gives the wrong time a scant hour after they say they saw something then their evidence can't be relied on, whatever the reason may be.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 26, 2019, 05:40:57 PM
It is a scientific fact that memory is inherently fallible...and as such it would be foolish to suggest any witness to be “entirely” reliable, particularly when one of the witness took exactly the same route twice in the same evening. We also know that JT would have felt considerable pressure from the group to select which exact trip she had witnessed the man and child, which must have been difficult to pinpoint - especially if you had done the same route twice within just over a half an hour period.
What stands out from both statements is that JT and the Smith family, independently of each other, describe seeing on the same night an uncannily similar man and child - height, clothing and general description wise, they are almost identical. (We also know that if JT witnessed him later in the evening - the time needed to walk the distance would fit almost exactly with both sightings) .
I don’t believe JT comes across as malicious or untrustworthy and I have no reason to disbelieve that she did indeed see a man - I only question when exactly she saw him, and not because she is unreliable but rather because she is human.
I think both the PJ and Oakley suggesting JT was an unreliable witness, speaks volumes about their own reliability to assess and consider evidence.
How do you correlate a later sighting by Jane with DCI Redwood's revelation moment, which placed Dr Totman in "uncannily similar clothing" & carrying his daughter near 5A at circa 2115hrs?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 26, 2019, 08:10:02 PM
How many young girls were sleeping at the creche that night? How would they have been collected by their parents? Which parent would have done the carrying? Think about it.
Obviously there was another man roaming the streets, who had a poor taste in fashion & a terrible haircut, carrying their child in an awkward manner, like they were carrying firewood.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 26, 2019, 08:12:15 PM
Obviously there was another man roaming the streets, who had a poor taste in fashion & a terrible haircut, carrying their child in an awkward manner, like they were carrying firewood.
So you are unable to think it through, as suspected.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 26, 2019, 09:07:44 PM
How do you correlate a later sighting by Jane with DCI Redwood's revelation moment, which placed Dr Totman in "uncannily similar clothing" & carrying his daughter near 5A at circa 2115hrs?
It obviously didn't occur to Redwood that Jane Tanner might have got the time wrong. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 26, 2019, 09:20:51 PM
Wouldn't that mean Dr Totman's belief he was the man seen at 2115hrs was also wrong?
As Dr Totman has never, to my knowledge, spoken about his beliefs, I don't think we can say what they were. Otherwise you need to put your question to those who are suggesting that Jane Tanner got the time of her sighting wrong.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2019, 01:50:05 AM
As Dr Totman has never, to my knowledge, spoken about his beliefs, I don't think we can say what they were. Otherwise you need to put your question to those who are suggesting that Jane Tanner got the time of her sighting wrong.
It's an open question. According to DCI Redwood, Dr Totman did speak about his beliefs. Snipped from transcript of Crimewatch October 2013...
AMROLIWALA
One of the most pivotal events on the timeline was Jane Tanner’s sighting of a man carrying a child. He was walking in this spot…
PICTURES OF ROAD OUTSIDE G5A
…just metres from where Madeleine had been sleeping.
DRAMATIC MUSIC
This man was widely thought to have been Madeleine’s abductor, but the team was taking nothing for granted.
21 40
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
22 10
AMROLIWALA
The British father had collected his two-year-old daughter from the crèche. He had been walking near the McCanns’ apartment.
PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN
This is the actual photograph taken by Metropolitan Police Officers of the man dressed in the kind of clothes he wore on holiday. This image was compared to the artist’s impression [based on Jane Tanner’s statement].
CRECHEMAN AND TANNERMAN MERGED SO THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE VERY SIMILAR
It is uncannily similar – and we know from the pyjamas that their child was wearing that it is, again, uncannily striking, the similarity.
AMROLIWALA
So, what you’re saying is that the timeline that everyone was working on for four years in this case…was wrong?
23 00
REDWOOD
We’re almost certain, now, that this sighting is not the abductor. But very importantly, what it says is that from 9.15, we are able to allow the clock…
TICKING CLOCK
…to move forward and in doing so, things that have not been quite as significant or received quite the same degree of attention are now the centre of our focus. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No-one should be in any doubt that Jane's sighting occurred at 2115hrs based on what SY disclosed to us, or that Dr Totman had collected his daughter from the creche rather than being on the way to drop her off.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:51:19 AM
It's an open question. According to DCI Redwood, Dr Totman did speak about his beliefs. Snipped from transcript of Crimewatch October 2013...
AMROLIWALA
One of the most pivotal events on the timeline was Jane Tanner’s sighting of a man carrying a child. He was walking in this spot…
PICTURES OF ROAD OUTSIDE G5A
…just metres from where Madeleine had been sleeping.
DRAMATIC MUSIC
This man was widely thought to have been Madeleine’s abductor, but the team was taking nothing for granted.
21 40
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
22 10
AMROLIWALA
The British father had collected his two-year-old daughter from the crèche. He had been walking near the McCanns’ apartment.
PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN
This is the actual photograph taken by Metropolitan Police Officers of the man dressed in the kind of clothes he wore on holiday. This image was compared to the artist’s impression [based on Jane Tanner’s statement].
CRECHEMAN AND TANNERMAN MERGED SO THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE VERY SIMILAR
It is uncannily similar – and we know from the pyjamas that their child was wearing that it is, again, uncannily striking, the similarity.
AMROLIWALA
So, what you’re saying is that the timeline that everyone was working on for four years in this case…was wrong?
23 00
REDWOOD
We’re almost certain, now, that this sighting is not the abductor. But very importantly, what it says is that from 9.15, we are able to allow the clock…
TICKING CLOCK
…to move forward and in doing so, things that have not been quite as significant or received quite the same degree of attention are now the centre of our focus. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No-one should be in any doubt that Jane's sighting occurred at 2115hrs based on what SY disclosed to us, or that Dr Totman had collected his daughter from the creche rather than being on the way to drop her off.
Thanks Misty.
DCI Redwood refers to discussing with the family what they were doing on the night they themselves believed they could be the Tanner sighting. MA then tells us that the British father collected his daughter from crèche. Where did MA get this info from DCI Redwood or is it his own take? The police will be under a duty of care to protect witnesses and their privacy hence DCI Redwood refers to 'what they were doing' and does not tell us that he was going/returning to crèche or on some different journey. The family was identified and contacted through the crèche records but it could be the daughter did not even go to the crèche that evening. Assuming the British family and Totmans are one and the same it could be that Mrs T, 1 yoa son and the Weinberger children were dropped off at crèche earlier and Dr T carried daughter to Millennium restaurant where she may have been placed in a pram/buggy.
I also think DCI Redwood is a fool for allowing the timeline to roll on when testimony from GM re his 9pm check is ambiguous. Although I think MM was abducted I think it could have occurred earlier than 9.15pm.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Myster on December 27, 2019, 07:17:33 AM
DCI Redwood refers to discussing with the family what they were doing on the night they themselves believed they could be the Tanner sighting. MA then tells us that the British father collected his daughter from crèche. Where did MA get this info from DCI Redwood or is it his own take? The police will be under a duty of care to protect witnesses and their privacy hence DCI Redwood refers to 'what they were doing' and does not tell us that he was going/returning to crèche or on some different journey. The family was identified and contacted through the crèche records but it could be the daughter did not even go to the crèche that evening. Assuming the British family and Totmans are one and the same it could be that Mrs T, 1 yoa son and the Weinberger children were dropped off at crèche earlier and Dr T carried daughter to Millennium restaurant where she may have been placed in a pram/buggy.
I also think DCI Redwood is a fool for allowing the timeline to roll on when testimony from GM re his 9pm check is ambiguous. Although I think MM was abducted I think it could have occurred earlier than 9.15pm.
It's an awfully long way to the Millennium to carry a child in that awkward position. His arms must have been aching off!
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Myster on December 27, 2019, 07:25:07 AM
Hi Myster, I am not sure. Thanks to Shining in Luz, the following is attached: https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/madeleine-short-route-from-the-creche-pt2/
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Myster on December 27, 2019, 07:43:03 AM
Hi Myster, I am not sure. Thanks to Shining in Luz, the following is attached: https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/madeleine-short-route-from-the-creche-pt2/ (https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/madeleine-short-route-from-the-creche-pt2/)
The question is... would Dr. Totman also know about that route, or indeed a different one?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:10:52 AM
So you think that the Totman family were eating late ?
And Jane saw Dr Totman with his little girl carrying her to the creche before he joined them ?
Was this at about 9.40pm ?
Cos, I think I read that the creche closed at 10pm ... so was she going to the creche for fewer than 20 minutes ?
*&^^&.
Please correct me if my time details are wrong; I thought that it was about 9.50 that Jane made her second trip up Rua FGM back to her flat
What's the definition of late? T9 booked their table for 8.30 pm ever night. Maybe Dr T having played tennis ate earlier in the day and or had something when he returned to apartment and just went to Millennium for drink.
Dr T was on hols with his wife, 2 x young children and the Weinberg family incl their 2 young children. Where was the rest of Dr T's party when he was observed at 9.15pm?
According to KM's PB others wanted to book a table at tapas on 3rd May but were unable to do so because of the group booking. KM said she didn't feel too bad about this when she learned that the others were staying on for another week. As T9 were being allowed to flout the rules and book in advance did the Totman's (assuming it was them KM referred to) arrange with management that they could eat elsewhere and still use crèche?
There are so many possibilities that DCI Redwood is aware of because he discussed with the family what they were doing that night. We don't know the detail and people who say well Dr T was walking in wrong direction are simply putting their own slant on things.
Afaik JT did not return to tapas after 9.15 pm?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:16:18 AM
The question is... would Dr. Totman also know about that route, or indeed a different one?
Assuming it was his first visit he had only been in resort some 5 days. Did MW hand out a 'Welcome pack' with a location map of relevant sites eg crèche, Millennium, Tapas etc?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:29:52 AM
Another possibility is that Dr T was walking slightly ahead of his party with the others trailing behind which JT might not have seen if she nipped up the back passage!
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2019, 08:41:50 AM
Assuming it was his first visit he had only been in resort some 5 days. Did MW hand out a 'Welcome pack' with a location map of relevant sites eg crèche, Millennium, Tapas etc?
MW did hand out a welcome pack, but whether it showed the cut through I don't know. It was Tuesday when Gerry McCann discovered the shortcut. Before that he was walking down to the supermarket then turning left up R Diretta.
From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSELL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at creche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:54:50 AM
MW did hand out a welcome pack, but whether it showed the cut through I don't know. It was Tuesday when Gerry McCann discovered the shortcut. Before that he was walking down to the supermarket then turning left up R Diretta.
From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSELL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at creche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
And KM in her PB refers to showing FP a shortcut to one of the day creches hitherto unknown to FP and from memory this was later in the week rather than earlier; it might even had been the Thu.
Maybe the Totmans/Weinergers had been eating earlier during the week with the children and the night crèche was new to them due to Dr T playing tennis.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:57:57 AM
And KM in her PB refers to showing FP a shortcut to one of the day creches hitherto unknown to FP and from memory this was later in the week rather than earlier; it might even had been the Thu.
Maybe the Totmans/Weinergers had been eating earlier during the week with the children and the night crèche was new to them due to Dr T playing tennis.
Assuming it was Tormans/Weinbergers who KM referred to who wanted to eat at tapas maybe the reason for this was that Dr T was playing tennis and they knew they would be later than usual.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 09:33:50 AM
What we do know is,whoever it was Redwood interviewed they never saw any thing suspicious,how is this known,Redwood himself,"this allows us to move the time line on",move along folks nothing to see here.Smiithy is the one.He carried a girl fitting Madeleine's description, how is this known,Redwood again.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 09:39:31 AM
What we do know is,whoever it was Redwood interviewed they never saw any thing suspicious,how is this known,Redwood himself,"this allows us to move the time line on",move along folks nothing to see here.Smiithy is the one.He carried a girl fitting Madeleine's description, how is this known,Redwood again.
Does anyone know if the smithman sighting was ever promoted in Portugal... Was, any appeal ever made.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
What we do know is,whoever it was Redwood interviewed they never saw any thing suspicious,how is this known,Redwood himself,"this allows us to move the time line on",move along folks nothing to see here.Smiithy is the one.He carried a girl fitting Madeleine's description, how is this known,Redwood again.
For clarity Redwoods exact words:"A description very close to that of Madeleine Mccann"
60/80% sure of who smithy was,description very close to that of Madeleine McCann,hmmm
I'm almost certain Tanner never saw an abductor,to use a well trodden phrase, it seems as if OG agree with me.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 09:58:40 AM
What's the definition of late? T9 booked their table for 8.30 pm ever night. Maybe Dr T having played tennis ate earlier in the day and or had something when he returned to apartment and just went to Millennium for drink.
Dr T was on hols with his wife, 2 x young children and the Weinberg family incl their 2 young children. Where was the rest of Dr T's party when he was observed at 9.15pm?
According to KM's PB others wanted to book a table at tapas on 3rd May but were unable to do so because of the group booking. KM said she didn't feel too bad about this when she learned that the others were staying on for another week. As T9 were being allowed to flout the rules and book in advance did the Totman's (assuming it was them KM referred to) arrange with management that they could eat elsewhere and still use crèche?
There are so many possibilities that DCI Redwood is aware of because he discussed with the family what they were doing that night. We don't know the detail and people who say well Dr T was walking in wrong direction are simply putting their own slant on things.
Afaik JT did not return to tapas after 9.15 pm?
Very true.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2019, 10:33:16 AM
The 'wrong direction' angle was picked up by case watchers immediately, and it was broadcast on UK national TV on 2 May 2017.
There are other issues with Totman = Tannerman.
Such issues can be resolved only by access to Totman or insider knowledge of OG.
As far as I am concerned, these issues are sufficiently major to leave open the question of whether Totman = Tannerman.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
What's the definition of late? T9 booked their table for 8.30 pm ever night. Maybe Dr T having played tennis ate earlier in the day and or had something when he returned to apartment and just went to Millennium for drink.
Dr T was on hols with his wife, 2 x young children and the Weinberg family incl their 2 young children. Where was the rest of Dr T's party when he was observed at 9.15pm?
According to KM's PB others wanted to book a table at tapas on 3rd May but were unable to do so because of the group booking. KM said she didn't feel too bad about this when she learned that the others were staying on for another week. As T9 were being allowed to flout the rules and book in advance did the Totman's (assuming it was them KM referred to) arrange with management that they could eat elsewhere and still use crèche?
There are so many possibilities that DCI Redwood is aware of because he discussed with the family what they were doing that night. We don't know the detail and people who say well Dr T was walking in wrong direction are simply putting their own slant on things.
Afaik JT did not return to tapas after 9.15 pm?
Neil Berry said about 3rd;
I tried to reserve a table at the Tapas Bar for that night but it was fully booked. I spoke about this with Raj Balu and we decided to order a meal from the restaurant and we dined together in our apartment, as testified in my statement of 7th May 2007. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
Jane Tanner says she returned to the restaurant after her first check. She then went to relieve Russell at 9.40 so he could get his meal.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 10:42:15 AM
I tried to reserve a table at the Tapas Bar for that night but it was fully booked. I spoke about this with Raj Balu and we decided to order a meal from the restaurant and we dined together in our apartment, as testified in my statement of 7th May 2007. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
Jane Tanner says she returned to the restaurant after her first check. She then went to relieve Russell at 9.40 so he could get his meal.
But was Neil Berry there for another week? According to KM the person(s) who tried to book were there for a second week?
So JT checked at 9.15 pm returned to restaurant and then relieved ROB at 9.40 pm.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
I agree....so Smithman may well be some innocent Portuguese
Could well be or anyone from anywhere that wasn't into the story.
People have pre-conceived ideas eg they're interested in the case and expect everyone else to be. Before posting here I could not have told you anything about the case other than the most basic details. I can think of loads of people that I know who would be unaware of the most basic details even if they had been in Portugal at the time. My brother for example would take the view it's nothing to do with him and it wouldn't interest him at all.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 11:21:43 AM
Could well be or anyone from anywhere that wasn't into the story.
People have pre-conceived ideas eg they're interested in the case and expect everyone else to be. Before posting here I could not have told you anything about the case other than the most basic details. I can think of loads of people that I know who would be unaware of the most basic details even if they had been in Portugal at the time. My brother for example would take the view it's nothing to do with him and it wouldn't interest him at all.
I agree that most poeple have little knowledge of the case but that doesn not stop them having any interest. doubt netflix would have made the doc if they didnt expect quite a large audience......I doubt the press would kept it in the news if it didnt sell papers.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 11:22:55 AM
I don't think it would be unfair to assume that the other 7 families with children in the creche could account for tannermans movements,it was obviously corroborated.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 11:24:57 AM
I agree that most poeple have little knowledge of the case but that doesn not stop them having any interest. doubt netflix would have made the doc if they didnt expect quite a large audience......I doubt the press would kept it in the news if it didnt sell papers.
How many extra people actually buy a newspaper because of the McCann case,does it even make the front page,I guess the red tops such as the Star would have something there.Have a look at the daily Star online,would the family spokesman really want Madeleine to be associated with that
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 12:32:18 PM
I agree that most poeple have little knowledge of the case but that doesn not stop them having any interest. doubt netflix would have made the doc if they didnt expect quite a large audience......I doubt the press would kept it in the news if it didnt sell papers.
When was 'Smithman' first bandied about?
I think a significant % of the population have no interest or knowledge about the case.
What % of developed population read papers or watch Netflix?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 12:45:33 PM
I think a significant % of the population have no interest or knowledge about the case.
What % of developed population read papers or watch Netflix?
your argumnet is getting a little jumbled imo....some have interest but little knowledge...you spoke to two random poeple in M and S...both seemed to have an interest in the case though little knowledge. I dont see waht your point is. mine is understanding why Smithmna has not been identified. These sort of cases often rely on informtion from the public
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
The 'wrong direction' angle was picked up by case watchers immediately, and it was broadcast on UK national TV on 2 May 2017.
There are other issues with Totman = Tannerman.
Such issues can be resolved only by access to Totman or insider knowledge of OG.
As far as I am concerned, these issues are sufficiently major to leave open the question of whether Totman = Tannerman.
But what is the 'wrong direction' angle based on?
Surely the fact DCI Redwood discussed with the family what they were doing that evening and is almost certain Dr T and Tannerman are one and the same means that as far as DCI Redwood is concerned Dr T was walking in the right direction? If I was DCI Redwood and knew Dr T was walking in right direction I would say 'almost certain' as it can't be 100% ruled out that 2 men of similar appearance carrying a child of similar appearance were in the vicinity at a similar time. But what would be the odds of all these similarities occurring in a small resort low season?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 12:48:37 PM
This is what Heriberto said on 8 May 2018:
“In my opinion, she (Jane Tanner) did not leave the table at 21:15. He (Russell o’ Brien) saw their daugthers at 21:05, and then he went at 21:30, discovering that one of them had vomited. She went at 21:45-21:50.
After the abduction, not knowing Portuguese laws, they were worried about that half an hour, with their daughters alone, and one of them vomiting, and the police questioning.
So he decided to make timelines clearly showing he was at 21:00, she was at 21:15, he was at 21:30, she was at 21:45. And show them to the rest of the group, implanting false memories.
She did not see Gerry and Jez at 21:15, she heard Gerry saying "I met Jez".”
The two names in brackets were added by me. If this is not correct, I apologise to Heri.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 12:51:53 PM
“In my opinion, she (Jane Tanner) did not leave the table at 21:15. He (Russell o’ Brien) saw their daugthers at 21:05, and then he went at 21:30, discovering that one of them had vomited. She went at 21:45-21:50.
After the abduction, not knowing Portuguese laws, they were worried about that half an hour, with their daughters alone, and one of them vomiting, and the police questioning.
So he decided to make timelines clearly showing he was at 21:00, she was at 21:15, he was at 21:30, she was at 21:45. And show them to the rest of the group, implanting false memories.
She did not see Gerry and Jez at 21:15, she heard Gerry saying "I met Jez".”
The two names in brackets were added by me. If this is not correct, I apologise to Heri.
Who is Heriberto and on what basis do you find him a credible witness?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 12:58:12 PM
I don't think it would be unfair to assume that the other 7 families with children in the creche could account for tannermans movements,it was obviously corroborated.
In what way do you believe the 8 families with 11 children in the crèche could account for/corroborate Tannerman's movements?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 01:05:43 PM
Surely the fact DCI Redwood discussed with the family what they were doing that evening and is almost certain Dr T and Tannerman are one and the same means that as far as DCI Redwood is concerned Dr T was walking in the right direction? If I was DCI Redwood and knew Dr T was walking in right direction I would say 'almost certain' as it can't be 100% ruled out that 2 men of similar appearance carrying a child of similar appearance were in the vicinity at a similar time. But what would be the odds of all these similarities occurring in a small resort low season?
Perhaps dr Totman was walking with his daughter at 21:15, but from the night creche towards his apartment but Jane Tanner did not see him either because: - she didn’t leave the table at that time, hence not seeing Gerry and Jeremy chatting (see Heri’s theory) nor dr Totman or - she saw a man with a girl at 21h40 walking away from block 5, hence Colin Sutton’s remarks on the ID Mystery Channel that dr Totman was taking his daughter from the night creche to the apartment, and that police might well be looking at another Tannerman.
It is the first time I’ve heard an official actually naming Julian Totman.
That could explain the ‘revelation moment’ i.e. discovering the direction
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2019, 01:08:47 PM
“In my opinion, she (Jane Tanner) did not leave the table at 21:15. He (Russell o’ Brien) saw their daugthers at 21:05, and then he went at 21:30, discovering that one of them had vomited. She went at 21:45-21:50.
After the abduction, not knowing Portuguese laws, they were worried about that half an hour, with their daughters alone, and one of them vomiting, and the police questioning.
So he decided to make timelines clearly showing he was at 21:00, she was at 21:15, he was at 21:30, she was at 21:45. And show them to the rest of the group, implanting false memories.
She did not see Gerry and Jez at 21:15, she heard Gerry saying "I met Jez".”
The two names in brackets were added by me. If this is not correct, I apologise to Heri.
As I said, people seem determined to call Jane Tanner a liar. I wonder where he got the idea that Russell O'Brien checked his children at 21:00?
Who is Heriberto and on what basis do you find him a credible witness?
Heriberto Janosch is a criminologist with a blog called ‘Espacio Exterior’. Amongst others, he discovered and analysed the phone calls between 3 people on the night that Madeleine disappeared, hence the ‘burglar theory’ examined by police.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 01:17:09 PM
I certainly do not regard Jane Tanner a liar. Perhaps Heri uncovered the 21h05 visit Russell made to his apartment? Perhaps he will be willing to clarify this here?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 01:17:18 PM
your argumnet is getting a little jumbled imo....some have interest but little knowledge...you spoke to two random poeple in M and S...both seemed to have an interest in the case though little knowledge. I dont see waht your point is. mine is understanding why Smithmna has not been identified. These sort of cases often rely on informtion from the public
What evidence exists showing significant numbers of the population from the developed world have any interest/knowledge in the case beyond knowing a young girl by the name of Madeleine McCann disappeared from a holiday apartment?
I spoke to a Scottish woman in a cafe, having struck up a conversation about the menu, and a female Portuguese shop assistant in M&S both had little knowledge about the case and both thought the McCanns were involved. The reason I asked their opinion was the Scottish/Portuguese connection.
The point I'm endeavoring to make is that 'Smithman' could quite easily be someone going about his lawful business oblivious to how his coming forward could eliminate a suspect because he has no interest/knowledge about the case.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 01:21:46 PM
Heriberto Janosch is a criminologist with a blog called ‘Espacio Exterior’. Amongst others, he discovered and analysed the phone calls between 3 people on the night that Madeleine disappeared, hence the ‘burglar theory’ examined by police.
Heriberto Janosch is a criminologist with a blog called ‘Espacio Exterior’. Amongst others, he discovered and analysed the phone calls between 3 people on the night that Madeleine disappeared, hence the ‘burglar theory’ examined by police.
Thanks. Do we have evidence of his qualifications promoting himself as a criminologist?
How did he gain access to phone data? I assume by his name he's Portuguese? Was he approved by PJ hence he had access to phone data?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2019, 01:27:21 PM
I will be monitoring these boards closely over the next few days to ensure that our rules are fully complied with.
Admin
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2019, 01:32:14 PM
What evidence exists showing significant numbers of the population from the developed world have any interest/knowledge in the case beyond knowing a young girl by the name of Madeleine McCann disappeared from a holiday apartment?
I spoke to a Scottish woman in a cafe, having struck up a conversation about the menu, and a female Portuguese shop assistant in M&S both had little knowledge about the case and both thought the McCanns were involved. The reason I asked their opinion was the Scottish/Portuguese connection.
The point I'm endeavoring to make is that 'Smithman' could quite easily be someone going about his lawful business oblivious to how his coming forward could eliminate a suspect because he has no interest/knowledge about the case.
Not when you find out who Smithman is - he gave the sighting time away to cover his ass. Stupid boy!
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 01:33:17 PM
Thanks. Do we have evidence of his qualifications promoting himself as a criminologist?
How did he gain access to phone data? I assume by his name he's Portuguese? Was he approved by PJ hence he had access to phone data?
He is Spanish. I have attached a link to his blog above.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 01:37:47 PM
I realise this has been discussed on the forum. To me dr Totman’s child pj pants at the bottom look very different to the Tanner e-fit and what Madeleine was actually wearing on May 3rd.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2019, 01:43:05 PM
Surely the fact DCI Redwood discussed with the family what they were doing that evening and is almost certain Dr T and Tannerman are one and the same means that as far as DCI Redwood is concerned Dr T was walking in the right direction? If I was DCI Redwood and knew Dr T was walking in right direction I would say 'almost certain' as it can't be 100% ruled out that 2 men of similar appearance carrying a child of similar appearance were in the vicinity at a similar time. But what would be the odds of all these similarities occurring in a small resort low season?
If you think Redwood identified Totman as Tannerman, kindly provide your cite.
Redwood did not name an individual as Tannerman.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 01:46:20 PM
Perhaps dr Totman was walking with his daughter at 21:15, but from the night creche towards his apartment but Jane Tanner did not see him either because: - she didn’t leave the table at that time, hence not seeing Gerry and Jeremy chatting (see Heri’s theory) nor dr Totman or - she saw a man with a girl at 21h40 walking away from block 5, hence Colin Sutton’s remarks on the ID Mystery Channel that dr Totman was taking his daughter from the night creche to the apartment, and that police might well be looking at another Tannerman.
It is the first time I’ve heard an official actually naming Julian Totman.
That could explain the ‘revelation moment’ i.e. discovering the direction
I don't believe the above is remotely credible.
DCI Redwood was well aware of the direction 'Tannerman' was walking and the time given by JT.
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 01:51:37 PM
I certainly do not regard Jane Tanner a liar. Perhaps Heri uncovered the 21h05 visit Russell made to his apartment? Perhaps he will be willing to clarify this here?
If Jane Tanner didn't see what she said she saw at the time she gave then her evidence was untrue. An untruth is a lie, a falsehood, a made up story.
Perhaps Heri was going by Kate's statement?
Thus, at around 9pm, her husband went to the apartment to make sure the twins, as well as Madeleine, were OK, then he went back to the restaurant. Her husband said that the children were doing well and that he had bumped into the person with whom he had played tennis, a person who has two children. At the same time, one of the group of friends, Russell, went to see his children, without checking on the interviewee's children. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 01:54:22 PM
You're right DCI Redwood didn't identify anyone but he did speak with a family who themselves believed they could have been the Tanner sighting.
I believe Mrs T is on record saying they told authorities in the aftermath Dr T and 'Tannerman' might have been one and the same?
And I don't find that news item credible, until and unless someone comes up with the mechanics whereby the Totmans were informed of the Tannerman sighting in a timescale that allowed them to come forward to the local police.
And for whatever reason the T9 were unaware of this.
Is the Find Madeleine site still promoting Tannerman?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 27, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
DCI Redwood was well aware of the direction 'Tannerman' was walking and the time given by JT.
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
Assuming that dr Totman is the person seen by Jane Tanner, does anyone know if he told police that he had seen Jane Tanner walking up the street, and/or Gerry and Jeremy chatting? To me, if he did not see one or the other at 21h15, it might indicate why mr Redwood referred to the ‘Tanner sighting’ without putting a time on that particular sighting?
UK members who know more about Colin Sutton than I do, can perhaps shed some light on his remark that ‘police might well be looking at another Tannerman’. (The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, ID channel, Netflix, 2019).
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 02:10:28 PM
Was he taken on by PJ in a professional capacity? If not how did he obtain phone data?
Three sources available.Files,PJ,OG.
Mark Rowley 2017:So that phone data is always something we will look at and we wouldn’t have had it available if the Portuguese had not got hold of it at the time so we need to be careful about criticism. But we had the data available and we worked with the Portuguese and that was part of the background to do with phone data and various sightings. There was enough there to say, not to prove the case, but there was something worth looking at in more detail and that’s what we did.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 02:10:38 PM
If Jane Tanner didn't see what she said she saw at the time she gave then her evidence was untrue. An untruth is a lie, a falsehood, a made up story.
Perhaps Heri was going by Kate's statement?
Thus, at around 9pm, her husband went to the apartment to make sure the twins, as well as Madeleine, were OK, then he went back to the restaurant. Her husband said that the children were doing well and that he had bumped into the person with whom he had played tennis, a person who has two children. At the same time, one of the group of friends, Russell, went to see his children, without checking on the interviewee's children. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Thank you, I think this is it.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 02:11:09 PM
There is a Search Facility. Why not use it? And then we can see which of his posts you are talking about.
I'm simply responding to Anthro's posts. If you're interested I suggest you check back on this thread or look at recent posts from Anthro and myself under our individual profiles.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
I realise this has been discussed on the forum. To me dr Totman’s child pj pants at the bottom look very different to the Tanner e-fit and what Madeleine was actually wearing on May 3rd.
Jane Tanner described the bottoms in her rog. They were different.
I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
The bottom bits are orange.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 27, 2019, 02:13:59 PM
I'm simply responding to Anthro's posts. If you're interested I suggest you check back on this thread or look at recent posts from Anthro and myself under our individual profiles.
I don't need to.
You cannot sensibly respond if you don't know who Heriberto is, what his qualifications are or what he has said in what context.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 02:16:26 PM
Mark Rowley 2017:So that phone data is always something we will look at and we wouldn’t have had it available if the Portuguese had not got hold of it at the time so we need to be careful about criticism. But we had the data available and we worked with the Portuguese and that was part of the background to do with phone data and various sightings. There was enough there to say, not to prove the case, but there was something worth looking at in more detail and that’s what we did.
But telecomm providers and law enforcement would not provide an individuals phone data to someone who wasn't working in a professional capacity? What evidence exists showing Heriberto was working in a professional capacity whereby he was able to obtain personal data?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 02:21:01 PM
Redwood wouldn't have been doing his job properly unless he had tannermans story checked out would he?
Yes I see what you mean but I'm not sure the other families could corroborate other than obviously Mrs T and Weinbergers. The crèche records would obviously show time children were checked in and out along with the nannies recollections.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 02:23:17 PM
But telecomm providers and law enforcement would not provide an individuals phone data to someone who wasn't working in a professional capacity? What evidence exists showing Heriberto was working in a professional capacity whereby he was able to obtain personal data?
Quite agree,Need to check something out,will get back to you.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 02:30:02 PM
And I don't find that news item credible, until and unless someone comes up with the mechanics whereby the Totmans were informed of the Tannerman sighting in a timescale that allowed them to come forward to the local police.
And for whatever reason the T9 were unaware of this.
Is the Find Madeleine site still promoting Tannerman?
I don't think it really matters if it was Dr T or not. Surely the point is that 'Tannerman' has been eliminated by the detective who was leading OG:
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
I believe 'Tannerman' is still on the 'Find Madeleine' site. Hardly surprising when at the time KM's PB was published she was convinced he was MM's abductor. What would she fill the void with if she conceded?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 02:35:54 PM
But telecomm providers and law enforcement would not provide an individuals phone data to someone who wasn't working in a professional capacity? What evidence exists showing Heriberto was working in a professional capacity whereby he was able to obtain personal data?
Quite agree,Need to check something out,will get back to you.
I'm not sure he did,Biltons piece for the bbc on the 10 yr panorama special doesn't say he did. Listen in @ 38:30 for a few minutes and make your own mind up.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 27, 2019, 03:04:47 PM
I'm not sure he did,Biltons piece for the bbc on the 10 yr panorama special doesn't say he did. Listen in @ 38:30 for a few minutes and make your own mind up.
Thank You. He didn't. The call information is available On Line.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2019, 03:08:10 PM
I don't think it really matters if it was Dr T or not. Surely the point is that 'Tannerman' has been eliminated by the detective who was leading OG:
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
I believe 'Tannerman' is still on the 'Find Madeleine' site. Hardly surprising when at the time KM's PB was published she was convinced he was MM's abductor. What would she fill the void with if she conceded?
I care little if it was Totman or not.
The core point is that Tannerman was going the wrong way!
Even Jane Tanner said that in her rogatory.
Redwood got a lot of things wrong on his shift. It wasn't his finest hour. I hope!
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2019, 03:17:54 PM
Yes I see what you mean but I'm not sure the other families could corroborate other than obviously Mrs T and Weinbergers. The crèche records would obviously show time children were checked in and out along with the nannies recollections.
Some think it was Dawn Bullen who arrived at the creche that night and informed them about Maddy's disappearance.
"That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her."
The core point is that Tannerman was going the wrong way!
Even Jane Tanner said that in her rogatory.
Redwood got a lot of things wrong on his shift. It wasn't his finest hour. I hope!
I suspect that Redwood simply didn't understand or know anything about the layout of Praia da Luz.
The problem seems to have been the time lapse between Jane Tanner seeing this man at about 9.15 and The Smith Sighting at around 10pm on his way towards the beach.
This could be explained by the arranging of a pick up because the abductor won't have known if he was going to be successful until he had done it. He would then need to inform the pick up person and lurk around for a short time.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 03:22:27 PM
Jane Tanner described the bottoms in her rog. They were different.
I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
The bottom bits are orange.
Thank you for this. What about the frilly bottom as opposed to dr Totman’s child’s ribbed one?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Angelo222 on December 27, 2019, 03:27:48 PM
Jane Tanner described the bottoms in her rog. They were different.
I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
The bottom bits are orange.
It would be interesting to know if Jane had seen Maddie in her PJs previously?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2019, 03:28:41 PM
I suspect that Redwood simply didn't understand or know anything about the layout of Praia da Luz.
The problem seems to have been the time lapse between Jane Tanner seeing this man at about 9.15 and The Smith Sighting at around 10pm on his way towards the beach.
This could be explained by the arranging of a pick up because the abductor won't have known if he was going to be successful until he had done it. He would then need to inform the pick up person and lurk around for a short time.
He obviously had a hair cut in between and tried a different carrying style *%87
So the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck.
I suspect that Redwood simply didn't understand or know anything about the layout of Praia da Luz.
The problem seems to have been the time lapse between Jane Tanner seeing this man at about 9.15 and The Smith Sighting at around 10pm on his way towards the beach.
This could be explained by the arranging of a pick up because the abductor won't have known if he was going to be successful until he had done it. He would then need to inform the pick up person and lurk around for a short time.
My own belief is that the man seen by the Smiths was heading for the medical centre but when he got there it was closed so he walked on past the Smiths so as to not attract unwanted attention to both himself and the child he was carrying.
For those who are unfamiliar with my theory, I believe the man had earlier knocked Maddie down outside her parents apartment. I think Totman was a red herring and unconnected to the man the Smiths encountered.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 27, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
It would be interesting to know if Jane had seen Maddie in her PJs previously?
I would not have thought so because she would not have entered their apartment at night that week. I don't think Jane would have entered apartment 5A until after the disappearance. We know David entered hours before the disappearance which was different from the norm.
Everybody would have been saying to Jane that must have been Maddy so she started believing that was the truth so of course she is going to think they were Maddy's pyjamas and so things can change to fit that view. She did know that the bottom bits of the pyjamas were different in some way and Totman's pyjamas have different coloured bottom bits and they were orange.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 03:45:36 PM
Thank you for this. What about the frilly bottom as opposed to dr Totman’s child’s ribbed one?
The bottom bits were different in some way. When SY showed her the pyjamas then I bet she remembered that is what she saw. If she hadn't then SY would know. In that area it was quiet at that time of night where you don't usually see anyone. Matt and Russell saw nobody on their checks that night. Moyes claimed to see nobody above on their balcony. So to think that Totman matching Tannerman's description and another different Tannerman turned up at the same time is hardly likely is it? As I've said, Jane's view changed over time because she was convinced that was Maddy from everybody telling her so.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 04:04:36 PM
The bottom bits were different in some way. When SY showed her the pyjamas then I bet she remembered that is what she saw. If she hadn't then SY would know. In that area it was quiet at that time of night where you don't usually see anyone. Matt and Russell saw nobody on their checks that night. Moyes claimed to see nobody above on their balcony. So to think that Totman matching Tannerman's description and another different Tannerman turned up at the same time is hardly likely is it? As I've said, Jane's view changed over time because she was convinced that was Maddy from everybody telling her so.
Aka confirmation basis 8((()*/
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 04:23:15 PM
You cannot sensibly respond if you don't know who Heriberto is, what his qualifications are or what he has said in what context.
Yes I can and I have.
Anthro said Heriberto discovered phone call data. I pointed out that someone would need to be working in a professional capacity to obtain such data. It transpires that this data was released in PJ files so Heriberto didn't discover the data as such.
I don't care what status/qualifications someone has no one is beyond being challenged. Yes even moi 8)--))
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 04:31:19 PM
Anthro said Heriberto discovered phone data. He didn't discover it as such as it was in the file available placed in the public domain.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 04:32:44 PM
Holly, you might want to look back at 2014 when persons of interest were (again) questioned by Operation Grange.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 04:43:46 PM
Assuming that dr Totman is the person seen by Jane Tanner, does anyone know if he told police that he had seen Jane Tanner walking up the street, and/or Gerry and Jeremy chatting? To me, if he did not see one or the other at 21h15, it might indicate why mr Redwood referred to the ‘Tanner sighting’ without putting a time on that particular sighting?
UK members who know more about Colin Sutton than I do, can perhaps shed some light on his remark that ‘police might well be looking at another Tannerman’. (The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, ID channel, Netflix, 2019).
Why would DCI Redwood need to give out the time? He knows the time JT saw 'Tannerman'
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
JT only observed one man carrying a child and as far as OG are concerned that man has been eliminated. This can be futher evidenced by the fact the S&R dogs didn't scent in that direction.
Colin Sutton was not involved with this case in a professional capacity just a pundit on tv.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 04:53:20 PM
Holly, you might want to look back at 2014 when persons of interest were (again) questioned by Operation Grange.
The 3 Portuguese guys identified from phone records? OG didn't find any evidence against them probably because they weren't involved. If OG thought they were involved but had insufficient evidence would they continue drawing millions from HO for further funding?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 05:04:33 PM
The 3 Portuguese guys identified from phone records? OG didn't find any evidence against them probably because they weren't involved. If OG thought they were involved but had insufficient evidence would they continue drawing millions from HO for further funding?
they arent drawing millions
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 05:26:38 PM
Anthro referred back to 2014. How much have OG received from HO 2014 - 2019?
Whatever the figure is, it is too much for this farce. We know from Sutton that lines of enquiry are being blocked by the bosses at SY. Question is, what are they so scared of finding?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 27, 2019, 05:51:00 PM
Whatever the figure is, it is too much for this farce. We know from Sutton that lines of enquiry are being blocked by the bosses at SY. Question is, what are they so scared of finding?
Sutton didn't say what you think.... His contact may well have been talking about lines of enquiry being blocked by portugal Sutton made an assumption
from a telegraph article...its the PJ telling grange where they can and cannot look
The Sun reports this line of enquiry may be that lead, but that police were privately frustrated with the Portuguese authorities’ refusal to let them follow up on it.
One told The Sun: “It has dogged the investigation all the way through and it's happening again.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 05:55:06 PM
Anthro referred back to 2014. How much have OG received from HO 2014 - 2019?
grange was scaled back in 2015...
Operation Grange was scaled back in 2015, but the remaining detectives continued to pursue a small number of inquiries described in April 2017 as significant.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2019, 06:07:08 PM
Operation Grange was scaled back in 2015, but the remaining detectives continued to pursue a small number of inquiries described in April 2017 as significant.
Meanwhile getting on towards 3 yrs later......................
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:09:17 PM
Operation Grange was scaled back in 2015, but the remaining detectives continued to pursue a small number of inquiries described in April 2017 as significant.
Yes I know but that's not the point under discussion. Anthro (I think) was referring to 3 x Potuguese guys investigated in 2014. They were not charged with any offence. OG would not continue the investigation and drawing millions 2014 - 2019 if they had identified perp's but didn't have sufficient evidence to convict.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 06:11:15 PM
Yes I know but that's not the point under discussion. Anthro (I think) was referring to 3 x Potuguese guys investigated in 2014. They were not charged with any offence. OG would not continue the investigation and drawing millions 2014 - 2019 if they had identified perp's but didn't have sufficient evidence to convict.
they scaled back in 2015...they are continuing with the investigation...thats all we know
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:21:45 PM
Tannerman was allegedly coming from the night crèche, so he was going the wrong way.
Jane Tanner knew it was the wrong way. Ask her if you want more.
I watched Redwood and co dig up central Luz in June 2014. God only knows what they thought they were doing.
You rightly corrected me in that DCI Redwood did not identify 'Tannerman' as Dr T. Now it's my time to correct you in that DCI Redwood, nor anyone else in a professional capacity, has referred to 'Tannerman' as coming from anywhere let alone the crèche.
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
There's no mention of what the family were doing. Which official has said otherwise.
How on earth could JT know where 'Tannerman' was going when she didn't even know who he was?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:28:36 PM
they scaled back in 2015...they are continuing with the investigation...thats all we know
Yes but this has nothing to do with the exchange of posts between myself and Anthro.
MET carried out a scoping review 2011 - 2013. So I would expect the investigation to be scaled back in 2015 having been at it for some 2 years with huge resources in terms of £'s and manpower.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 06:37:21 PM
Yes but this has nothing to do with the exchange of posts between myself and Anthro.
MET carried out a scoping review 2011 - 2013. So I would expect the investigation to be scaled back in 2015 having been at it for some 2 years with huge resources in terms of £'s and manpower.
In answer to a question in 2017 how long would it go on for Rowley said the MET part would not go on for as long as it had been going.2013 full blown investigation to 2017 was 4 yrs,so 2017 would make it ending next year after another 3 yrs,won't be long.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:39:00 PM
Given DCI Redwood is on record as follows:
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
DCI Redwood only makes reference 'to what the family were doing'.
Can someone tell me where the idea 'Tannerman' was coming from the crèche originates from?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 06:41:26 PM
In answer to a question in 2017 how long would it go on for Rowley said the MET part would not go on for as long as it had been going.2013 full blown investigation to 2017 was 4 yrs,so 2017 would make it ending next year after another 3 yrs,won't be long.
Which will coincide around the time MM is 18 yoa.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 06:45:54 PM
Yes I know but that's not the point under discussion. Anthro (I think) was referring to 3 x Potuguese guys investigated in 2014. They were not charged with any offence. OG would not continue the investigation and drawing millions 2014 - 2019 if they had identified perp's but didn't have sufficient evidence to convict.
Five years have passed since then and it was necessary at the time to eliminate the three people.
The investigation has moved along since that time. Heriberto’s full blog is no longer on social media. He has raised some thought-provoking issues.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Angelo222 on December 27, 2019, 06:57:23 PM
Sutton didn't say what you think.... His contact may well have been talking about lines of enquiry being blocked by portugal Sutton made an assumption
from a telegraph article...its the PJ telling grange where they can and cannot look
The Sun reports this line of enquiry may be that lead, but that police were privately frustrated with the Portuguese authorities’ refusal to let them follow up on it.
One told The Sun: “It has dogged the investigation all the way through and it's happening again.
Regardless of what Sutton implied, I know from my own enquiries that SY have conveniently overlooked certain criminality in the Maddie case. One wonders why and who are they protecting? *%87
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Brietta on December 27, 2019, 07:22:35 PM
That's correct. Heriberto went to some trouble to interrogate the data already within the public domain. He is to be applauded for his efforts.
I think he was the first outside police circles to do so. Everyone else seems to have confined themselves to the sticking point of confining themselves to interrogating the McCann data only.
Heri also studied the calls to phone boxes in Praia da Luz ... he certainly did what others only claim to have done but actually did not and that is to have looked at the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 07:42:30 PM
The 3 Portuguese guys identified from phone records? OG didn't find any evidence against them probably because they weren't involved. If OG thought they were involved but had insufficient evidence would they continue drawing millions from HO for further funding?
Since you asked who Heriberto is, I shared his information.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 27, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
You rightly corrected me in that DCI Redwood did not identify 'Tannerman' as Dr T. Now it's my time to correct you in that DCI Redwood, nor anyone else in a professional capacity, has referred to 'Tannerman' as coming from anywhere let alone the crèche.
One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
There's no mention of what the family were doing. Which official has said otherwise.
How on earth could JT know where 'Tannerman' was going when she didn't even know who he was?
Let me try this one final time.
Crèche + Tannerman = no go. *&^^&
It doesn't matter if Tannerman was coming from the crèche or going to it. The Tanner sighting does not fit either.
Is there anything complex about that at all?
Jane Tanner recognised this non-fit.
I'm done on this one Holly. Feel free to speculate to your heart's content.
Tanner saw a man who does not fit Redwood's ponderings and does not fit Totman.
Which might be why he's still on the Find Madeleine website.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: jassi on December 27, 2019, 08:06:02 PM
Alternatively, maybe Tanner never saw anyone in the first place.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 27, 2019, 08:06:17 PM
Does it matter? Didn't seem to lead anywhere. Just another wrong theory.
I think it does matter. It was valid information which had to be investigated.
This is what he investigated:
I have found, in June 2013, in the first volumes of the Polícia Judiciária Files, that a man is referenced, J.C., who: (a) was living near the 5A apartment the day Madeleine was abducted, (b) was also living near the location where the Smith family saw the suspect, (c) had a previous record for theft, (d) was an Ocean Club employee, (e) was not working between 09:00 pm and 11:00 pm on May 3rd. 2007 (then it was said he did not go to work that day), (f) might know well the Ocean Club apartments, (g) was in the zone at 11:00 pm on May 3rd. 2007, and (h) was in the zone at the time Madeleine was abducted (confirmed by his mobile phone records). The records include phone communications via voice or by SMS with his friend R. at 17:26, 21:25, 21:38 and 21:51 (the last confirmed by PJ files). The block 5 (where the 5A apartment is) had a theft on 5L on April 17th. 2007, and an intent of theft on G5 (5G) on approximately April 26th. 2007. That is, 17 and 7 days before the abduction of Madeleine.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: jassi on December 27, 2019, 08:07:47 PM
Didn't PJ investigate these people in the first place and exclude them ?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 08:20:36 PM
It doesn't matter if Tannerman was coming from the crèche or going to it. The Tanner sighting does not fit either.
Is there anything complex about that at all?
Jane Tanner recognised this non-fit.
I'm done on this one Holly. Feel free to speculate to your heart's content.
Tanner saw a man who does not fit Redwood's ponderings and does not fit Totman.
Which might be why he's still on the Find Madeleine website.
How am I speculating when I'm simply following the official line?
There's no official line of who the family was that DCI Redwood spoke with let alone where the man in question was going to or coming from. And I've no idea why you consider JT or the 'Find Madeleine site more valuable sources of information over the most senior officer tasked with investigating in a professional capacity?
The night crèche records are not in the public domain. Only those investigating in a professional capacity know who was on the list and what they said unless info was leaked?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2019, 08:32:55 PM
It's an open question. According to DCI Redwood, Dr Totman did speak about his beliefs. Snipped from transcript of Crimewatch October 2013...
No-one should be in any doubt that Jane's sighting occurred at 2115hrs based on what SY disclosed to us, or that Dr Totman had collected his daughter from the creche rather than being on the way to drop her off.
So why did Redwood have such difficulty explaining why the witness was going in the wrong direction?
Did Totman wander about, back and forth, on the road outside blocks 4, 5 and 6 for instance? If he did, it was an odd way to carry a small child. And if he did then why not say so? And how come he didn't eyeball everyone else that was supposedly loitering about block 5 that night?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2019, 09:45:51 PM
How am I speculating when I'm simply following the official line?
There's no official line of who the family was that DCI Redwood spoke with let alone where the man in question was going to or coming from. And I've no idea why you consider JT or the 'Find Madeleine site more valuable sources of information over the most senior officer tasked with investigating in a professional capacity?
The night crèche records are not in the public domain. Only those investigating in a professional capacity know who was on the list and what they said unless info was leaked?
There are 2 other DCIs tasked with OG, so if you think Redwood is the most senior can we have a cite, please.
I find Jane Tanner's statement more compelling than that of a DCI who conducted a circus in Luz.
As to the Find Madeleine site, either it is completely thick and the McCanns are being kept in the dark or ...
While we're at it, what crèche records? The ones we've never seen? And which were not, AFAIK, mentioned by Redwood?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 27, 2019, 10:44:31 PM
There are 2 other DCIs tasked with OG, so if you think Redwood is the most senior can we have a cite, please.
I find Jane Tanner's statement more compelling than that of a DCI who conducted a circus in Luz.
As to the Find Madeleine site, either it is completely thick and the McCanns are being kept in the dark or ...
While we're at it, what crèche records? The ones we've never seen? And which were not, AFAIK, mentioned by Redwood?
Afaik DCI Redwood was the only DCI on the case at the time of the 'revelation'.
No one has the same investagatory powers as law enforcement so I can't see the evidence JT and 'Find Madeleine' are more reliable.
If Crèche records didn't exist how do you think DCI R identified 8 families had 11 children in the crèche? What do you think the mechanics were in terms of parents handing over small sleeping children to nannies in a facility operated by MW? We know day crèche records existed as per KM signing out MM at 5.30 pm on 3rd May. So if not the same process of an evening what processes and safeguards were in place to confirm children were collected by their own parents?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 28, 2019, 12:07:27 AM
Afaik DCI Redwood was the only DCI on the case at the time of the 'revelation'.
No one has the same investagatory powers as law enforcement so I can't see the evidence JT and 'Find Madeleine' are more reliable.
If Crèche records didn't exist how do you think DCI R identified 8 families had 11 children in the crèche? What do you think the mechanics were in terms of parents handing over small sleeping children to nannies in a facility operated by MW? We know day crèche records existed as per KM signing out MM at 5.30 pm on 3rd May. So if not the same process of an evening what processes and safeguards were in place to confirm children were collected by their own parents?
Point 3. So you are relying on speculation. Thanks for that clarification.
Point 2. Jane Tanner was there. OG wasn't.
Point 1. Goalpost shifting. 3 DCIs, who may or may not be of 1 mind.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: John on December 28, 2019, 12:24:18 AM
So why did Redwood have such difficulty explaining why the witness was going in the wrong direction?
Did Totman wander about, back and forth, on the road outside blocks 4, 5 and 6 for instance? If he did, it was an odd way to carry a small child. And if he did then why not say so? And how come he didn't eyeball everyone else that was supposedly loitering about block 5 that night?
I think a lot has been withheld from the public by SY so there's something to be said for the open system practised in Portugal.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: misty on December 28, 2019, 12:33:08 AM
So why did Redwood have such difficulty explaining why the witness was going in the wrong direction?
Did Totman wander about, back and forth, on the road outside blocks 4, 5 and 6 for instance? If he did, it was an odd way to carry a small child. And if he did then why not say so? And how come he didn't eyeball everyone else that was supposedly loitering about block 5 that night?
There is a scenario, previously mentioned on here, in which Dr Totman could have been heading back towards Block 6 from his apartment in Block 4. If he had been dining at the Millennium Restaurant with his wife, eldest child & another family who had their children with them, then he may have left the restaurant 5 mins or more before the others to collect his daughter from the creche. The rest of the group would have walked together, along Rua da Ramalhete then onto Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva towards Block 4. It's entirely possible that Dr Totman arrived back at G4M well before his wife but she had the key. Instead of waiting by the door, he chose to walk back along the easiest route towards the Millennium, passing the junction where Jane saw Tannerman. If the rest of the group were dawdling Dr Totman may have had to walk some distance before meeting up with them. However, I agree with SIL that there are too many discrepancies between the appearance of Dr. Totman & the description of Tannerman. Furthermore, I do not understand why anyone would carry a young child around, wearing only her pyjamas & no socks, on a night so cold the adults needed to wear coats. It would be really interesting to know just how big the blankets supplied by the creche were as the child Jane saw had no blanket covering her lower legs. In Amaral's 2017 O Enigma documentary, he portrayed Jane's sighting as a man walking from right to left, rather than left to right, then combined it with the Smiths' sighting. Did he know in which direction Dr Totman was really walking? https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1071
Finally. DCI Redwood gave no description of the clothing Smithman was wearing in 2013 Crimewatch. If the appeal was intended to identify another person from 2 efits, why was there such a dearth of pertinent information?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 28, 2019, 01:56:21 AM
I think a lot has been withheld from the public by SY so there's something to be said for the open system practised in Portugal.
I concur.
Any regular poster on the forum can evaluate Crimewatch 2013. It was a carefully orchestrated exercise intended to downplay certain parts - Tannerman - so the public would focus on other parts - including Smithman. Don't look over there, look over here.
I've got an outstanding post on my blog re 10 questions for Kate and Gerry. I'd guess there would be another 10 interesting questions for DCI Redwood.
I wonder what Andy is doing to fill his retirement days?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 02:15:32 AM
The crèche closed at 11 something. I think it was 11.30 pm.
You are quite right. It officially closed at 11.30 pm. I guess if there were no children needing it after 10pm., it wouldn't stay open after the time that the last child left.
I distinctly remember a report on this forum saying that in the night of the 3rd. at coming up to 10pm. only one child was there and the parent was rather late picking up. The parent who picked up IIRC said that a child was missing and people were walking around calling out a name that sounded like Madeleine
Now I think it was Amy Tierney who said this but I cant pick it up from her statements. Who ever it was immediately the last child had gone, I gathered the creche was closed ... and Amy immediately went straight to the Mccann apartment
... and arrived there early enough to witness the window and shutter being open. It was only about 250 yards, so would only take a couple of minutes.
I think that on that night they closed the creche at about 10pm
AIMO
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 02:38:05 AM
“In my opinion, she (Jane Tanner) did not leave the table at 21:15. He (Russell o’ Brien) saw their daugthers at 21:05, and then he went at 21:30, discovering that one of them had vomited. She went at 21:45-21:50.
After the abduction, not knowing Portuguese laws, they were worried about that half an hour, with their daughters alone, and one of them vomiting, and the police questioning.
So he decided to make timelines clearly showing he was at 21:00, she was at 21:15, he was at 21:30, she was at 21:45. And show them to the rest of the group, implanting false memories.
She did not see Gerry and Jez at 21:15, she heard Gerry saying "I met Jez".”
The two names in brackets were added by me. If this is not correct, I apologise to Heri.
That must be where I got the 9.50 from. Thank you Anthro for finding that.
Heri, of course, is an absolute expert on the case having spent many weeks at Praia de Luz and qualified at University level in Criminology, Psychology and associated disciplines. He is a member here and has his own website on the Madeleine case.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 03:00:11 AM
Assuming that dr Totman is the person seen by Jane Tanner, does anyone know if he told police that he had seen Jane Tanner walking up the street, and/or Gerry and Jeremy chatting? To me, if he did not see one or the other at 21h15, it might indicate why mr Redwood referred to the ‘Tanner sighting’ without putting a time on that particular sighting?
UK members who know more about Colin Sutton than I do, can perhaps shed some light on his remark that ‘police might well be looking at another Tannerman’. (The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, ID channel, Netflix, 2019).
I dont think he would have noticed them enough to register in his memory anyhow.
The man with the litte girl was crossing the road and apart from a quick glance would be looking straight ahead. They were at 90^ to his vision angle and way out of his periferal vision.
Additionally they were over 30 yards awy from him and the lighting was not of the strongest quality.
In just the same way, Jez and Gerry would not have seen Tannerman. Too far aftar dark in a rather poorly lit steet .. and their fields of vision too were at right angles to Tannerman. No way would they have seen him.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 03:04:15 AM
Jane Tanner described the bottoms in her rog. They were different.
I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
The bottom bits are orange.
Yep, and the sodium lighting gave an orange sickly glow to everything it illuminated, too.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 03:09:15 AM
I would not have thought so because she would not have entered their apartment at night that week. I don't think Jane would have entered apartment 5A until after the disappearance. We know David entered hours before the disappearance which was different from the norm.
Everybody would have been saying to Jane that must have been Maddy so she started believing that was the truth so of course she is going to think they were Maddy's pyjamas and so things can change to fit that view. She did know that the bottom bits of the pyjamas were different in some way and Totman's pyjamas have different coloured bottom bits and they were orange.
My understanding is that the Tapas group chldren played in their jamies together, on the climbing frame etc., each evening before bed.
But it may well have been that the men generally took the little ones there giving the women time to make up etc before dinner. Dunno
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 03:26:29 AM
Tannerman was allegedly coming from the night crèche, so he was going the wrong way.
Jane Tanner knew it was the wrong way. Ask her if you want more.
I watched Redwood and co dig up central Luz in June 2014. God only knows what they thought they were doing.
I have mentioned on here several times that there was no creche in the direction Tannerman was coming from, but it is news to me that Jane had mentioned that in the early days.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2019, 03:33:52 AM
Any regular poster on the forum can evaluate Crimewatch 2013. It was a carefully orchestrated exercise intended to downplay certain parts - Tannerman - so the public would focus on other parts - including Smithman. Don't look over there, look over here.
I've got an outstanding post on my blog re 10 questions for Kate and Gerry. I'd guess there would be another 10 interesting questions for DCI Redwood.
I wonder what Andy is doing to fill his retirement days?
Modest.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 28, 2019, 08:47:39 AM
Point 3. So you are relying on speculation. Thanks for that clarification.
No it is not speculation about night crèche records when we know MW operated such a system during the day. We know PJ did not pursue this since there's no evidence in the PJ files of the register or witness statement from the 8 families with 11 children in the night crèche on 3rd May. Conversely we know PJ contacted former holiday makers who stayed in 5A as evidenced by their statements in the PJ files.
Point 1. Goalpost shifting. 3 DCIs, who may or may not be of 1 mind.
There has never been a time in the history of OG whereby 3 DCI's have worked the case simultaneously. OG was initially headed up by DCI Andy Redwood who subsequently retired and handed over to DCI Nicola Wall.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 28, 2019, 09:07:29 AM
Any regular poster on the forum can evaluate Crimewatch 2013. It was a carefully orchestrated exercise intended to downplay certain parts - Tannerman - so the public would focus on other parts - including Smithman. Don't look over there, look over here.
I've got an outstanding post on my blog re 10 questions for Kate and Gerry. I'd guess there would be another 10 interesting questions for DCI Redwood.
I wonder what Andy is doing to fill his retirement days?
Of course it was orchestrated if you're shifting focus to a particular time and person.Tannerman is of no interest Smithman was described carrying a child with "A description very close to that of Madeleine McCann" Tannerman wasn't,obvious who to check out,considering OG identified the person believed to have been seen by Tanner.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 28, 2019, 09:10:38 AM
I think it does matter. It was valid information which had to be investigated.
This is what he investigated:
I have found, in June 2013, in the first volumes of the Polícia Judiciária Files, that a man is referenced, J.C., who: (a) was living near the 5A apartment the day Madeleine was abducted, (b) was also living near the location where the Smith family saw the suspect, (c) had a previous record for theft, (d) was an Ocean Club employee, (e) was not working between 09:00 pm and 11:00 pm on May 3rd. 2007 (then it was said he did not go to work that day), (f) might know well the Ocean Club apartments, (g) was in the zone at 11:00 pm on May 3rd. 2007, and (h) was in the zone at the time Madeleine was abducted (confirmed by his mobile phone records). The records include phone communications via voice or by SMS with his friend R. at 17:26, 21:25, 21:38 and 21:51 (the last confirmed by PJ files). The block 5 (where the 5A apartment is) had a theft on 5L on April 17th. 2007, and an intent of theft on G5 (5G) on approximately April 26th. 2007. That is, 17 and 7 days before the abduction of Madeleine.
Impressive analysis of info but ultimately it was not supported by any evidence these individuals were involved.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: barrier on December 28, 2019, 09:16:35 AM
It's obviously not impossible 3 petty criminals decide to abandon valuables and opt for a small child instead but not really plausible based on lack of precedence.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 28, 2019, 09:35:19 AM
Of course it was orchestrated if you're shifting focus to a particular time and person.Tannerman is of no interest Smithman was described carrying a child with "A description very close to that of Madeleine McCann" Tannerman wasn't,obvious who to check out,considering OG identified the person believed to have been seen by Tanner.
Orchestrated? Seems to me 'Tannerman' was ruled out on solid grounds and the emphasis switched to 'Smithman'.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Brietta on December 28, 2019, 09:51:43 AM
Any regular poster on the forum can evaluate Crimewatch 2013. It was a carefully orchestrated exercise intended to downplay certain parts - Tannerman - so the public would focus on other parts - including Smithman. Don't look over there, look over here.
I've got an outstanding post on my blog re 10 questions for Kate and Gerry. I'd guess there would be another 10 interesting questions for DCI Redwood.
I wonder what Andy is doing to fill his retirement days?
No questions for Goncalo Amaral ???
I could think of a few pertinent ones for him.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: jassi on December 28, 2019, 09:57:08 AM
Any regular poster on the forum can evaluate Crimewatch 2013. It was a carefully orchestrated exercise intended to downplay certain parts - Tannerman - so the public would focus on other parts - including Smithman. Don't look over there, look over here.
I've got an outstanding post on my blog re 10 questions for Kate and Gerry. I'd guess there would be another 10 interesting questions for DCI Redwood.
I wonder what Andy is doing to fill his retirement days?
Of course it was orchestrated if you're shifting focus to a particular time and person.Tannerman is of no interest Smithman was described carrying a child with "A description very close to that of Madeleine McCann" Tannerman wasn't,obvious who to check out,considering OG identified the person believed to have been seen by Tanner.
Why do you ask me that question while ignoring Sil wishing to question Kate, Gerry and DCI Redwood (and actually posting) ???
Don't you think that without questions for Amaral and the rest of his associates who worked and propagandised Madeleine's case at the time and subsequently, there is no balance ? and that this one sided approach is what has led to orchestrated "mystery" and obfuscation of Madeleine's case right from the word go.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: jassi on December 28, 2019, 10:42:42 AM
Why do you ask me that question while ignoring Sil wishing to question Kate, Gerry and DCI Redwood (and actually posting) ???
Don't you think that without questions for Amaral and the rest of his associates who worked and propagandised Madeleine's case at the time and subsequently, there is no balance ? and that this one sided approach is what has led to orchestrated "mystery" and obfuscation of Madeleine's case right from the word go.
I'm sure you wouldn't believe anything he said, so why bother ?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Brietta on December 28, 2019, 10:52:17 AM
I'm sure you wouldn't believe anything he said, so why bother ?
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt but I think you've got a point there. Lying under oath in the Portuguese court didn't daunt him in the slightest so how could anyone believe a word which comes out of the mouth of a convicted perjurer?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 28, 2019, 11:24:58 AM
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt but I think you've got a point there. Lying under oath in the Portuguese court didn't daunt him in the slightest so how could anyone believe a word which comes out of the mouth of a convicted perjurer?
Ruddy good copper though; old school, successful.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 11:40:21 AM
I haven't seen any evidence that amaral was a good copper or successful... Supporting the beating up suspects to extract a confession isn't a sign of being a good cop
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 28, 2019, 11:48:13 AM
I haven't seen any evidence that amaral was a good copper or successful... Supporting the beating up suspects to extract a confession isn't a sign of being a good cop
Seems like a decent lad.
I do love the quaint perception of modern policing; unimpeachable to a man / woman. Some of the tactics deployed in inner cities particularly would make your eyes bleed just conceiving of it.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
I do love the quaint perception of modern policing; unimpeachable to a man / woman. Some of the tactics deployed in inner cities particularly would make your eyes bleed just conceiving of it.
I've spoken to police from inner cities... My opinion comes from a position of knowledge. I don't see beating up suspects to gain confessions as being good policing. In fact it's bad policing
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 28, 2019, 11:59:13 AM
I've spoken to police from inner cities... My opinion comes from a position of knowledge. I don't see beating up suspects to gain confessions as being good policing. In fact it's bad policing
So does mine......seems there's a lot of bad policing going on.
You must have missed the suspect getting his head smashed against the counter. In comparison, he's a cracking cop.
The fact that you compare him to the potential dregs of the UK police force speaks volumes. I would accept in such circles he might be considered a cracking cop
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 28, 2019, 12:22:10 PM
The fact that you compare him to the potential dregs of the UK police force speaks volumes. I would accept in such circles he might be considered a cracking cop
Comparison with is not alignment with. He's a cracking cop and successful detective. Gentleman by all accounts.
Do your contacts inside 'inner city police' mention any of these illegal techniques as per the link? It's generally replicated across all forces. It's the way it is as a (relatively) young man, if you get arrested and resist you also expect a kicking as a minimum. Character building. Deterrent.
Anyway, let's get back on topic.
Can anyone link to a drawing / notarised photo of these movements?
Mod comment: Vulgarity removed.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 28, 2019, 12:25:13 PM
No it is not speculation about night crèche records when we know MW operated such a system during the day. We know PJ did not pursue this since there's no evidence in the PJ files of the register or witness statement from the 8 families with 11 children in the night crèche on 3rd May. Conversely we know PJ contacted former holiday makers who stayed in 5A as evidenced by their statements in the PJ files.
JT was a witness who gave an account of what she said she saw. JT has never had any investigatory powers.
There has never been a time in the history of OG whereby 3 DCI's have worked the case simultaneously. OG was initially headed up by DCI Andy Redwood who subsequently retired and handed over to DCI Nicola Wall.
Those records are speculation until you can show they are in the possession of OG. You can't.
Shifting the goalposts again. JT was there. Andy Redwood wasn't.
Andy Redwood is not the senior officer who has headed up the case. It is up to DCI #3.
Simple facts. No speculation.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 12:27:27 PM
Comparison with is not alignment with. He's a cracking cop and successful detective. Gentleman by all accounts.
Do your contacts inside 'inner city police' mention any of these illegal techniques as per the link? It's generally replicated across all forces. It's the way it is as a (relatively) young man, if you get arrested and resist you also expect a kicking as a minimum. Character building. Deterrent.
Anyway, let's get back on topic.
Can anyone be arsed linking to a drawing / notarised photo of these movements?
I haven't seen any accounts of him being a cracking cop... The only evidence we have contradicts this. Best if suspects don't resist arrest... It seems many do and then complain of ill treatment... Now back on topic
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 28, 2019, 12:30:24 PM
I haven't seen any accounts of him being a cracking cop... The only evidence we have contradicts this. Best if suspects don't resist arrest... It seems many do and then complain of ill treatment... Now back on topic
So a kicking is acceptable for resisting? And I requested you to get this back on topic. Stop resisting.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 28, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
If you check out my 10 questions for K&G, they are all neutral. The answers cannot implicate the McCanns or exonerate them. They would simply provide more for the information churn.
Can you think of 10 such neutral questions for Gonçalo?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 28, 2019, 03:26:34 PM
https://youtu.be/rQ7o5wF1vF8
This is the link to the Investigation Discovery channel where Colin Sutton named Julian Totman as Tannerman (April 2019).
Also, I wish to apologise for my statement that he said ‘they might well be looking at another Tannerman’. It is not part of this broadcast.
The link I shared is not the correct one. I will post the correct one.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Brietta on December 28, 2019, 03:28:53 PM
If you check out my 10 questions for K&G, they are all neutral. The answers cannot implicate the McCanns or exonerate them. They would simply provide more for the information churn.
Can you think of 10 such neutral questions for Gonçalo?
You seem to be of the opinion that your ten "neutral" questions to Kate and Gerry "would lead to a great deal of progress in clarifying the disappearance of Madeleine McCann".
I am afraid I do not see how that is possible. Did you do as promised and clarify why you think your questions are important to Madeleine's case sometime before Christmas?
On this thread I would ask Amaral ... (1) when did Dr Totman come to the attention of the Judicial Police?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Anthro on December 28, 2019, 03:30:13 PM
https://youtu.be/rQ7o5wF1vF8
This is the ID broadcast.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Angelo222 on December 28, 2019, 04:26:58 PM
I haven't seen any accounts of him being a cracking cop... The only evidence we have contradicts this. Best if suspects don't resist arrest... It seems many do and then complain of ill treatment... Now back on topic
He was a PJ Coordinator, the British equivalent of a DCI. You don't get to such a rank without being a top cop.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 04:32:00 PM
He was a PJ Coordinator, the British equivalent of a DCI. You don't get to such a rank without being a top cop.
I disagree....Ive seen nothing to show he was a top cop and lots to show he wasnt..sacked from the mccann case...found guilty of perjury....what evidence is there he was a top cop.. how come none of these top cops understood what Christaveo was up to...underneath their noses
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 28, 2019, 04:48:29 PM
I disagree....Ive seen nothing to show he was a top cop and lots to show he wasnt..sacked from the mccann case...found guilty of perjury....what evidence is there he was a top cop
Rather a lot actually. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral was born on 2 October 1959 in the village of Torredeita near Viseu. He studied engineering at IST and ISEL. In 1992/1997 he studied at night time, the Faculty of Law of Lisbon, having graduated in Law and Criminal Sciences. He joined the Public Administration in 1973 , aged 14. In November 1981 he began to study to be an officer of the Judicial Police, and took office in 1982 as an Agent. In 1997/1998 he attended the course of sub-inspectors of the PJ, being ranked first among 100 students. In 2000/2001 he completed the course for Coordinators of PJ. He served in Lisbon, the Algarve and the Azores. He pursued for many years, all sorts of violent and organized crime: theft, robbery, murder, drug trafficking. He had an unblemished career, widely recognized by colleagues and superiors, as well as judges and prosecutors, judicial officials and lawyers, with whom he had the pleasure of dealing.
He retired on July 1, 2008, after 27 years of police career in order to restore the fullness of his freedom of expression on the Madeline McCann case which he investigated and continues to contribute, as far as possible, to the discovery of material truth and realization of justice.
Top cop indeed!
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 04:51:24 PM
Rather a lot actually. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral was born on 2 October 1959 in the village of Torredeita near Viseu. He studied engineering at IST and ISEL. In 1992/1997 he studied at night time, the Faculty of Law of Lisbon, having graduated in Law and Criminal Sciences. He joined the Public Administration in 1973 , aged 14. In November 1981 he began to study to be an officer of the Judicial Police, and took office in 1982 as an Agent. In 1997/1998 he attended the course of sub-inspectors of the PJ, being ranked first among 100 students. In 2000/2001 he completed the course for Coordinators of PJ. He served in Lisbon, the Algarve and the Azores. He pursued for many years, all sorts of violent and organized crime: theft, robbery, murder, drug trafficking. He had an unblemished career, widely recognized by colleagues and superiors, as well as judges and prosecutors, judicial officials and lawyers, with whom he had the pleasure of dealing.
He retired on July 1, 2008, after 27 years of police career in order to restore the fullness of his freedom of expression on the Madeline McCann case which he investigated and continues to contribute, as far as possible, to the discovery of material truth and realization of justice.
what unbiased person wrote that...cite please.. I can help you. its an anonymous claim that anyone can edit on good reads.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Angelo222 on December 28, 2019, 04:52:12 PM
Rather a lot actually. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral was born on 2 October 1959 in the village of Torredeita near Viseu. He studied engineering at IST and ISEL. In 1992/1997 he studied at night time, the Faculty of Law of Lisbon, having graduated in Law and Criminal Sciences. He joined the Public Administration in 1973 , aged 14. In November 1981 he began to study to be an officer of the Judicial Police, and took office in 1982 as an Agent. In 1997/1998 he attended the course of sub-inspectors of the PJ, being ranked first among 100 students. In 2000/2001 he completed the course for Coordinators of PJ. He served in Lisbon, the Algarve and the Azores. He pursued for many years, all sorts of violent and organized crime: theft, robbery, murder, drug trafficking. He had an unblemished career, widely recognized by colleagues and superiors, as well as judges and prosecutors, judicial officials and lawyers, with whom he had the pleasure of dealing.
He retired on July 1, 2008, after 27 years of police career in order to restore the fullness of his freedom of expression on the Madeline McCann case which he investigated and continues to contribute, as far as possible, to the discovery of material truth and realization of justice.
Top cop indeed!
unblemished career .....perjury...sacked from the mccanns case...just two things we know...so who wrote that....wahts the source...it simply doesnt ring true...no source...no credibility
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Angelo222 on December 28, 2019, 04:55:47 PM
unblemished career .....perjury...sacked from the mccanns case...just two things we know...so who wrote that....wahts the source...it simply doesnt ring true...
As you are off topic I wont be dragged any further into your attempts to undermine such a good cop.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 04:57:17 PM
As you are off topic I wont be dragged any further into your attempts to undermine such a good cop.
in your opinion..a poor cop in mine.....no cite no credibility...shall I start a new thread so you can give a cite.. its an anonymous cite on a page advertising amarals book. Its a cite anyone can write or edit...one of goncs supporters no doubt
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Eleanor on December 28, 2019, 05:04:06 PM
I do love the quaint perception of modern policing; unimpeachable to a man / woman. Some of the tactics deployed in inner cities particularly would make your eyes bleed just conceiving of it.
Do you have any cites to illustrate Gonc’s alleged decency, or is this just your perception based on what you believe is most likely to wind up McCann supporters?
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2019, 05:54:37 PM
Rather a lot actually. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral was born on 2 October 1959 in the village of Torredeita near Viseu. He studied engineering at IST and ISEL. In 1992/1997 he studied at night time, the Faculty of Law of Lisbon, having graduated in Law and Criminal Sciences. He joined the Public Administration in 1973 , aged 14. In November 1981 he began to study to be an officer of the Judicial Police, and took office in 1982 as an Agent. In 1997/1998 he attended the course of sub-inspectors of the PJ, being ranked first among 100 students. In 2000/2001 he completed the course for Coordinators of PJ. He served in Lisbon, the Algarve and the Azores. He pursued for many years, all sorts of violent and organized crime: theft, robbery, murder, drug trafficking. He had an unblemished career, widely recognized by colleagues and superiors, as well as judges and prosecutors, judicial officials and lawyers, with whom he had the pleasure of dealing.
He retired on July 1, 2008, after 27 years of police career in order to restore the fullness of his freedom of expression on the Madeline McCann case which he investigated and continues to contribute, as far as possible, to the discovery of material truth and realization of justice.
Top cop indeed!
This post really does show what angelo thinks is evidence just does not stack up.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 28, 2019, 05:58:46 PM
If I’m not mistaken Angelo’s cite is from the blurb on Amaral’s Totally Truthful Bookie-wook. @)(++(*
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 30, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Kate took her beating very well, those bruises healed rather fast.
Oh! yeah, she wasn't threatened with a battering -just asked awkward,boring questions like.. what did you see when you first entered the children's room? tsk what a bore it must have been for her, poor dear.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2019, 04:24:03 PM
Kate took her beating very well, those bruises healed rather fast.
Oh! yeah, she wasn't threatened with a battering -just asked awkward,boring questions like.. what did you see when you first entered the children's room? tsk what a bore it must have been for her, poor dear.
Do you know, what amaral said in his book about the right of arguidos to stay silent...
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 30, 2019, 04:25:44 PM
Kate took her beating very well, those bruises healed rather fast.
Oh! yeah, she wasn't threatened with a battering -just asked awkward,boring questions like.. what did you see when you first entered the children's room? tsk what a bore it must have been for her, poor dear.
Admin, please remove this off-topic post - it offends my eyes.
Title: Re: Dr Totman: Apartment block stayed in and direction walked
Post by: The General on December 30, 2019, 07:26:22 PM